Legacy — Episode 3: The History of Wellness and Wellbeing | The Importance of Sleep and Exercise

Release Date: January 22, 2026
Hosts: Afua Hirsch & Peter Frankopan

Overview

In this episode, Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan explore the deep cultural and historical roots of wellness, focusing on how sleep and exercise have been understood and practiced throughout human history. They challenge the modern Western approach to rest and movement, inviting listeners to rethink what truly constitutes wellbeing by drawing on ancient wisdom and cross-cultural perspectives. The conversation weaves together archaeological insights, anthropology, social commentary, and personal anecdotes, creating a rich tapestry of how the human pursuit of wellness has always been a communal and holistic experience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Our Relationship With Sleep: Then and Now

• Fragmented Sleep in History

  • Most humans throughout history did not sleep in a single block. Night was divided: people would fall asleep after dusk, wake for a period, and then have a “second sleep.”
    • “That's not how people slept. In the ancient world, people didn't tend to sleep in one solid block.” (Peter, 02:45)
  • Archaeological evidence (like thin ash layers from nighttime fires) supports this—people tended slow-burning fires, suggesting night waking.
    • “You get fire residues that show that a flame and fire was burning a slow and steady temperature through the night… Someone keeps tending a smoldering fire, maybe adds a stick or two, then they roll over and they go back to sleep.” (Peter, 03:25)

• Communal Nature of Sleep

  • Sleeping alone is modern; communal sleeping was the norm due to shared resources and cultural norms.
    • “For most of human history, you'd fall asleep to the sound of people breathing around you…company means security. So it means also that sleep is not your time to escape from society. It's very much an extension or part of it.” (Peter, 06:16, 06:59)
  • Even well into the 19th century in England, communal sleep endured (ex: Jane Austen and her sister shared a bed).

• Dreams as Shared Experience

  • Dreams were often discussed and interpreted communally, sometimes viewed as messages or omens for the entire group.
    • “Dreams also being a kind of shared endeavour and communal data that's kind of distributed around the family or the community.” (Afua, 08:07)
  • Ancient texts like the Ishkar Sakiku (Mesopotamia) developed dream interpretation systems, linking dreams to health and fate.
    • “In Mesopotamia…there's a book called the Ishkar Sakiku…a really sophisticated system for interpreting dreams.” (Peter, 08:34)

The Social and Cultural Climate of Sleep

• Environmental and Cultural Adaptations

  • Sleep patterns often adapted to environment and climate—late-night activity in hot regions, afternoon rest (siestas), and sleep disruption by children and animals.
    • “If you go to the Gulf today…people emerge at around midnight…You're going to be up late, then maybe you'll sleep for a bit at night, but maybe you'll have another nap later in the day.” (Afua, 04:22)
  • Proximity to animals and lack of privacy increased nighttime disturbances and infection risks, leading to different circadian rhythms and sleep patterns.

• The Spiritual Dimension

  • In many cultures, ancestors were buried in or under the home, merging the seen and unseen realms—nighttime was seen as spiritually porous.
    • “In many ancient cultures, people often literally slept with their ancestors…Physical manifestation of the belief system that the unseen realm and the seen realm all unite in the present.” (Afua, 14:50)

Modern Sleep Culture and Its Pitfalls

• Toxic Productivity and Sleep Deprivation
  • Modern Western culture prizes sleep deprivation as a marker of commitment and success—a dangerous myth.
    • “There was this sense that sleep is kind of disposable. If something has to give...you can sacrifice sleep because it’s for a worthy cause.” (Afua, 14:50)
  • Critique of “competitive exhaustion” culture perpetuated by personal development gurus and societal pressure, especially acute for women and marginalized groups.
  • Reference to Tricia Hersey’s Rest is Resistance and Matthew Walker’s Why We Sleep, underlining the physical and mental dangers of sleep deprivation.
    • “Matthew Walker…argues very persuasively that sleep deprivation is linked to lots of fatalities and linked to things like dementia. It's actually really very dangerous for you not to sleep.” (Peter, 19:00)

The Ancient Science of Sleep

• Ayurveda and Greek Approaches

  • Ayurveda calls sleep a “pillar of life,” equating its importance with food and sexual conduct. Poor sleep is linked to emotional and spiritual imbalances.
  • Ancient Greeks (Hippocrates) similarly prioritized even, quiet sleep as essential for healing.
    • “In the Ayurvedics, you Find that in Greece too...people like Hippocrates writing texts about the importance of how important it is to sleep quietly through the night and evenly.” (Peter, 19:00)

• Post-Covid Reflections

  • The pandemic forced a cultural re-evaluation of work and rest, making people more attuned to the benefits of sleep and the need to respect their bodies.
    • “Being at home, people were able to actually connect better with how much sleep they needed...” (Afua, 21:21)
    • “You guys had to go through all this to relearn what we knew 5,000 years ago. It's kind of crazy.” (Afua, 21:21)

The History and Legacy of Exercise

From Survival to Ritual: Movement as Medicine

• Natural Movement in Ancient Societies

  • Physical endurance was embedded in daily survival: walking great distances, fishing, lifting, carrying, and balancing—no concept of exercise for health or aesthetics.
    • “You find these very old sites…showing skeletal remains of really powerful lower limbs…People are walking 10 to 20 km a day…not because they want to be beach ready…but because you have to survive.” (Peter, 26:39)

• Recreating Ancestral Movement in Modern Gyms

  • Modern fitness routines often mimic ancient activities, albeit with sophisticated (sometimes comical) equipment.
    • “So many of the exercises in my gym…are designed probably by an overpaid exercise consultant to replicate these activities…lifting heavy baskets, slam dunks with medicine balls, etc.” (Afua, 27:47, 28:43)

• Gendered Labor and Bodies

  • Archaeology reveals women specialized in repetitive endurance labor (grain grinding—extreme stress on shoulders/elbows), while men’s bodies reflected bursts of strength (hunting).
    • “Women become basically specialists in endurance labour whereas men develop these ability…for bursts of strength and agility for hunting.” (Afua, 31:04)

Ritual, Community, and Exercise

• Dance and Communal Movement

  • Ritual dancing and group exercise were and remain important for social unity, emotional wellbeing, and identity.
    • “Ritual creates formalized movement patterns that resemble exercise...You move in the same way, you create in a collaborative way through dance.” (Peter, 31:23)
    • “It feels so good. It’s so bonding. It releases all kinds of stuff: serotonin and oxytocin.” (Afua, 34:20)
  • Modern communal experiences (parties, weddings) echo ancient practices where movement is tied to ritual and celebration.

• Competition and Sport

  • Early evidence (rock art, rituals) shows sport as a non-lethal, structured outlet for competition and aggression, especially among men.
    • “Sport has almost been a way for potentially hostile male rivals to actually find a communal outlet for that kind of energy and physicality.” (Afua, 37:04)
  • Hunting and ritualized sport shaped the “ideal body” and social hierarchies in ancient times.

From Ritual to Gym: The Greek Legacy

• The Gymnasium

  • Ancient Greek gymnasiums: public, male, and nude spaces—social training grounds as much as fitness centers.
    • “The gymnasium means you're naked…In the Greek world, people treat the physical body in a much more straightforward way.” (Peter, 40:36, 42:03)
  • Focus was on preparation for real competition, military readiness, or display, not just aesthetics or health.
    • “I think the question that they would ask…is why are you doing this? Are you about to be in direct competition…tracking an animal…?” (Peter, 41:01)
  • Diet and exercise were closely linked. Hippocrates emphasized balance between exertion, digestion, metabolism—parallels with today’s dietary advice for athletes.

• Holistic Ancient Approaches

  • Ayurveda, Taoism, and other traditions recognized movement, sleep, and food as interconnected pillars of health, with consequences for both body and spirit.
    • “Ayurvedic texts…describe movement or vayana as an essential element of digestion and also of moral regulation, and of your character.” (Peter, 44:47)
    • “So if you're going to be healthy, you've got to be conscious of what you eat, mindful about how you sleep…” (Peter, 45:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Modern Sleep Culture:

  • "Instead of really seeing and critiquing [exhaustion], we just normalized it...it's just life. You'll sleep when you're dead." — Afua Hirsch (14:50)
  • "They're not just toxic, I think they're genuinely dangerous." — Peter Frankopan (19:00)

• On Ancient Wellness:

  • "Ayurvedic texts are talking about sleep literally as a pillar of life, not as a pleasure or as a passive thing you do, but one of the three foundations of good health." — Peter Frankopan (19:00)
  • "In every culture, dancing together is just part of life and everybody is conditioned to take part…as a way of expressing their identity and belonging." — Afua Hirsch (35:44)

• Gym Parallels:

  • "There's not a huge difference between the nude ancient Greek and some of the people in my gym. But the small difference is a crucial one." — Afua Hirsch (40:52)
  • "If you're going to be healthy, you've got to be conscious of what you eat, you've got to be mindful about how you sleep..." — Peter Frankopan (45:37)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:32-02:17 — Opening, episode introduction, and framing sleep as a universal human trait with modern misunderstandings.
• 03:01-06:59 — Communal sleep throughout history; archaeological evidence.
• 08:07-10:03 — Dreams as communal and spiritual phenomenon; Mesopotamian dream interpretation.
• 14:50-21:21 — Modern sleep culture, “toxic productivity,” Tricia Hersey’s Rest is Resistance, and Matthew Walker’s Why We Sleep.
• 21:21-23:36 — Covid’s impact on attitudes towards rest and wellness.
• 26:39-31:23 — Physical movement in ancient societies, gendered exercise roles.
• 31:23-34:20 — Ritual dance, group exercise, and social bonds through movement.
• 37:04-41:01 — Sport as ritualized aggression and competition; evolution towards gym culture.
• 42:03-44:19 — The Greek gymnasium and ancient views on the “body beautiful.”
• 44:47-46:18 — Holistic approaches to wellness (Ayurveda/Taoism/Hippocrates).
• 46:18-46:35 — Preview of next episode (the sacred realm: priests, shamans, oracles).

Conclusion

This episode situates the quest for wellness as both ancient and intricately social. Hirsch and Frankopan reveal that our pursuit of good sleep and healthy bodies isn’t a fad, but a legacy—and that the wisdom of the ancients may hold the key to rebalancing our modern, often toxic, approach to wellbeing. Listeners are left with a strong sense of the deep human need for communal connection, rhythm, and rest, and primed for the next episode’s exploration of the spiritual dimensions of health.

Next episode teaser:
"The big missing element that we're going to come back to in the next episode is the sacred realm: priests, shamans, and oracles. Join us in the next episode to find out more." (Afua, 46:18)