Legacy Podcast: Winston Churchill | Blood, Toil, Tears & Sweat | Episode 4

Hosts: Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan
Release Date: December 4, 2024
Podcast Series: Legacy
Platform: Wondery

1. Introduction: The Complex Legacy of Churchill

The final episode of the Legacy series delves deep into the multifaceted life of Winston Churchill, exploring whether his reputation aligns with his true impact. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan navigate through Churchill's celebrated achievements and the controversies that continue to shape his legacy nearly eight decades later.

2. Statues and Symbolism: A Divided Public Opinion

The episode opens with a discussion on the recent defacement of Churchill's statue outside the Houses of Parliament in London during the Black Lives Matter protests in June 2020.

Afua Hirsch highlights the polarized reactions:

"[02:43] Peter Frankopan: We begin this series with the country singing for He's a Jolly Good Fellow. But today there are plenty of people who'd like to pull down statues of Winston Churchill."

Visual Evidence: Clips from the protests show the statue being labeled as racist, juxtaposed with counter-protests defending Churchill's legacy.

Tommy Robinson, a far-right activist, strongly defends Churchill:

"[04:02] Tommy Robinson: We're just here to make sure our history and all of Europe's history is preserved and not taken away from us."

Afua Hirsch points out the ongoing tension:

"[04:25] The statue and a neighboring one of Nelson Mandela are boarded up by police. As tensions rise when nobody here is to cause trouble."

Despite the heightened emotions, both Black Lives Matter and Britain First eventually cancel their planned demonstrations to prevent full-scale confrontations.

3. Churchill’s Post-War Leadership and Policies

After WWII, Churchill faced immense challenges. At 70, amidst a shattered Britain with 450,000 war dead and an economy on the brink of bankruptcy, the nation opted for Labour over Churchill in the 1945 general election.

Peter Frankopan reflects on Churchill’s refusal to retire:

"[05:02] Peter Frankopan: We'Ll come back to this route, but for now, let's remind ourselves of the real man behind the headlines."

Churchill's continued influence included:

• Leading as Leader of the Opposition
• Delivering his iconic "Iron Curtain" speech in 1946, coining the term "special relationship" between the UK and the USA.
• Writing a six-volume history of WWII, earning the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1953.

Afua Hirsch admires Churchill’s confidence and conviction:

"[06:34] Afua Hirsch: One of the things I have most enjoyed from really studying Churchill's life is the level of confidence that one person can possess."

However, this same confidence bordered on narcissism, creating a complex character admired for his strength yet critiqued for his imperialist and racist ideologies.

4. Churchill’s Assassination and Enduring Memorials

Churchill remained an influential figure until his death in 1965 at age 90. His state funeral, attended by hundreds of thousands, signified his monumental impact on Britain.

Peter Frankopan notes the numerous memorials named after Churchill:

"[11:21] Afua Hirsch: It's very Churchill and there are so many things named after him, just in case there was any danger that people would forget him."

Churchill's honorary citizenship in the USA and his consistent top ranking in polls like the BBC's Greatest Britons underscore his celebrated status, despite evolving public perceptions.

5. Reassessing Churchill in Modern Contexts

The hosts discuss how modern media, like the film "Darkest Hour," reshapes Churchill's image to align with contemporary values, often glossing over his problematic aspects.

Afua Hirsch criticizes this selective portrayal:

"[21:30] Afua Hirsch: I just find it interesting that things he didn't do are being added to his legacy to make him seem less problematic. And things he did that were genuinely progressive are being erased."

Peter Frankopan emphasizes the importance of nuanced historical discussions:

"[16:02] Peter Frankopan: Churchill gets it, I think, because he's so famous. ... he stands for everybody who was like, it's a bit like what we talked about with Cecil Rhodes."

Afua Hirsch advocates for a balanced understanding:

"[19:22] Afua Hirsch: Many people misunderstand what the Black Lives Matter movement is about, thinking it’s just about smashing statues. It's really about introducing facts into the narrative about these figures we glorify."

6. Churchill’s Impact on Eastern Europe and Modern Geopolitics

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Churchill's role in shaping post-war Eastern Europe, particularly his stance during events like the Tolstoy Conference in 1944. Churchill's implicit agreement to divide Europe into Western and Soviet spheres of influence had long-lasting repercussions, contributing to tensions that echo in today’s conflicts, such as the Moscow invasion of Ukraine.

Peter Frankopan connects Churchill's imperialist mindset to the arbitrary division of territories:

"[30:55] Afua Hirsch: Do you think Churchill's history of imperialism influenced his acceptance of dividing Europe post-WWII?"

Afua Hirsch critiques the selective application of Churchill’s principles:

"[32:38] Afua Hirsch: Britain and Churchill had no intention of applying principles of liberty and democracy uniformly across their colonies."

This selective liberation contrasts with Churchill's unwavering stance on Western European freedom, highlighting the contradictions in his legacy.

7. Churchill in Today’s Political Landscape

The episode concludes with a speculative discussion on where Churchill might fit within today’s political parties, considering his formidable convictions versus the current political culture’s emphasis on corporate discipline and party loyalty.

Afua Hirsch suggests Churchill might have felt alienated by modern politics:

"[24:09] Afua Hirsch: He would have been quite alienated by the whole political culture."

Peter Frankopan underscores the importance of fostering nuanced conversations using Churchill as a starting point:

"[19:22] Peter Frankopan: Because Churchill is so totemic, he does give an opportunity to have these kinds of discussions."

8. Closing Thoughts: Honoring and Critiquing Churchill

Afua Hirsch emphasizes the necessity of confronting both the commendable and condemnable aspects of Churchill’s legacy:

"[35:05] Afua Hirsch: It's important to try to be measured when one thinks about this, no question the liberation achieved."

The hosts agree that while Churchill’s leadership during WWII was pivotal, his imperialist and racist policies warrant critical examination to understand the full scope of his impact.

Notable Quotes

• Peter Frankopan ([05:02]): "We'Ll come back to this route, but for now, let's remind ourselves of the real man behind the headlines."
• Afua Hirsch ([06:34]): "One of the things I have most enjoyed from really studying Churchill's life is the level of confidence that one person can possess."
• Tommy Robinson ([04:02]): "We're just here to make sure our history and all of Europe's history is preserved and not taken away from us."
• Afua Hirsch ([35:25]): "Never give up."

Conclusion

This episode of Legacy presents Winston Churchill as a towering yet contentious figure whose contributions to Britain's victory in WWII are indisputable. However, his imperialist and racist ideologies, along with his role in shaping post-war Europe, present a legacy that is both admirable and deeply flawed. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan advocate for a balanced historical narrative that honors Churchill’s leadership while critically examining his reprehensible actions and beliefs.

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the complexities of historical legacies, recognizing that understanding figures like Churchill requires acknowledging both their strengths and their failings.

Next Episode: The series continues with Charles Dickens, exploring the life of the iconic Victorian novelist and social reformer.

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