The Big "Beautiful" Bill; OpenAI Wants War With Apple; Flying Taxis Are Coming | Ep 013 Lemonade Stand 🍋

Summary

Podcast Summary: Lemonade Stand – Episode 013: The Big "Beautiful" Bill; OpenAI Wants War With Apple; Flying Taxis Are Coming

Hosts: Aiden, Atrioc, DougDoug
Release Date: May 29, 2025
Episode Title: The Big "Beautiful" Bill; OpenAI Wants War With Apple; Flying Taxis Are Coming | Ep 013 Lemonade Stand 🍋

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

The episode kicks off with Aiden welcoming listeners back to Lemonade Stand, immediately diving into the primary topic: the controversial “Big Beautiful Bill” introduced by former President Donald Trump. The hosts briefly touch upon recent tensions within their own group, particularly regarding Aiden’s absence from a recent interview, which sets a candid and relatable tone for the discussion.

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2. The Big "Beautiful" Bill

Overview of the Bill

Aiden introduces the bill as a reconciliation effort aimed at altering significant aspects of the U.S. budget. He explains that unlike standard bills requiring a supermajority in the Senate, this bill needs only a simple majority due to its classification, allowing Republicans to push it through with their current majority.

• Key Quote:
  Atriok [08:05]: "Reconciliation bills bypass the filibuster, requiring only a majority in the Senate."

Impact on National Debt and Spending

The hosts delve into the fiscal implications of the bill, highlighting that it is set to increase the national debt by approximately $3.8 trillion over the next decade. This surge is primarily due to making the 2017 tax cuts permanent, which eliminates the expiration of these cuts and significantly reduces government revenue.

• Key Quote:
  Aiden [07:31]: "The CBO estimates this bill will add about $3.8 trillion to our debt over the next 10 years."

Tax Cuts and Their Beneficiaries

Aiden breaks down the distribution of tax cuts under the bill, emphasizing that the majority benefits accrue to the wealthy. He presents a simplified tax saving scenario:

• Key Quote:
  Aiden [22:26]: "If you make $10 million a year, you're going to save $100,000 in taxes."

This section underscores the disparity in tax benefits, with high-income individuals receiving substantial savings compared to middle and lower-income earners.

Defense and Border Security Funding

The bill allocates additional funds to the Defense Department ($144 billion) and border security ($67 billion), including continued investments in the border wall. The hosts critique the necessity and efficiency of these allocations, especially given that illegal border crossings have already seen a significant decline.

• Key Quote:
  Atriok [43:50]: "Spending $47 billion on the border wall is insane, especially when illegal crossings are already at an all-time low."

Cuts to Social Programs

To offset the increased spending, the bill proposes significant cuts to Medicaid ($800 billion) and welfare programs. The discussion highlights the human impact of these cuts, particularly on vulnerable populations who rely on these services for healthcare and basic needs.

• Key Quote:
  Aiden [12:24]: "We're cutting $800 billion from Medicaid over the next 10 years by imposing new work requirements."

Political Reactions and Criticisms

The hosts elaborate on the backlash from both within the Republican Party and external entities like Elon Musk and Senator Ron Johnson. Critics argue that the bill contradicts the Republicans' promises to reduce spending and address the national debt, labeling it a betrayal of fiscal conservatives' principles.

• Key Quote:
  Doug [25:21]: "This is a betrayal of what was promised. Republicans said they'd cut spending, but they're doing the exact opposite."

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3. OpenAI's Acquisition of Jony Ive

Transitioning from fiscal policies, the conversation shifts to technology, particularly OpenAI’s recent acquisition of legendary Apple designer Jony Ive. The hosts speculate on OpenAI’s motives, suggesting that acquiring Ive indicates a strategic move towards developing innovative hardware to complement their AI advancements.

• Key Quote:
  Aiden [64:08]: "OpenAI clearly sees the future is moving beyond the Apple system, and acquiring Jony Ive's design expertise is a step towards redefining tech paradigms."

Implications for the Tech Industry

The acquisition is portrayed as a potential game-changer, positioning OpenAI to challenge established tech giants like Apple and Google by integrating cutting-edge design with advanced AI capabilities. The hosts express excitement over the possibilities, anticipating groundbreaking products that could reshape user interaction with technology.

• Key Quote:
  Atriok [68:00]: "Imagine a device that's like a cooler, more intuitive phone. With Jony Ive's design and OpenAI's AI, this could be revolutionary."

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4. Flying Taxis and the 2028 Los Angeles Olympics

Introduction to Flying Taxis

The discussion then moves to urban transportation innovations, focusing on Archer Aviation’s efforts to introduce flying taxis in Los Angeles by the 2028 Olympics. The hosts explore the technical and logistical challenges, questioning the practicality and scalability of such an initiative in a city notorious for its traffic congestion.

• Key Quote:
  Doug [73:24]: "Flying taxis could either revolutionize urban transport or turn LA into a sky jammed nightmare."

Technical Innovations and Public Reception

Aiden and Atriok discuss the advancements in electric vertical takeoff and landing (eVTOL) technology, emphasizing improvements in noise reduction and safety features compared to traditional helicopters. However, they express skepticism about the widespread adoption and affordability of these taxis for the average citizen.

• Key Quote:
  Atriok [75:25]: "If these flying taxis are to become mainstream, they need to be affordable and safe enough for everyday use."

Regulatory Hurdles and Future Prospects

The hosts acknowledge the significant regulatory hurdles that need to be overcome, including FAA approvals and integration into existing air traffic systems. They contemplate the potential impact on urban planning and infrastructure, especially with the upcoming Olympic Games serving as a proving ground.

• Key Quote:
  Aiden [78:02]: "Regulation is going to be the biggest bottleneck. Without clear rules, these taxis might never take off in a meaningful way."

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5. Concluding Thoughts and Final Insights

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the interconnectedness of fiscal policies, technological advancements, and urban infrastructure developments. They reiterate their concerns over the “Big Beautiful Bill” and its long-term implications on the national debt and social welfare. Concurrently, they express optimism about OpenAI’s potential to innovate and the transformative possibilities of flying taxis, albeit with caution regarding their implementation and societal impact.

• Key Quote:
  Atriok [86:42]: "There's no win with this bill. Regardless of where you sit, the negative impacts overwhelmingly outweigh the positives."

Final Remarks:

The episode concludes with a brief mention of upcoming topics and a lighthearted exchange among the hosts, maintaining the show’s engaging and conversational tone.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Aiden [07:31]: "The CBO estimates this bill will add about $3.8 trillion to our debt over the next 10 years."
• Aiden [12:24]: "We're cutting $800 billion from Medicaid over the next 10 years by imposing new work requirements."
• Atriok [43:50]: "Spending $47 billion on the border wall is insane, especially when illegal crossings are already at an all-time low."
• Doug [25:21]: "This is a betrayal of what was promised. Republicans said they'd cut spending, but they're doing the exact opposite."
• Aiden [64:08]: "OpenAI clearly sees the future is moving beyond the Apple system, and acquiring Jony Ive's design expertise is a step towards redefining tech paradigms."
• Atriok [75:25]: "If these flying taxis are to become mainstream, they need to be affordable and safe enough for everyday use."
• Atriok [86:42]: "There's no win with this bill. Regardless of where you sit, the negative impacts overwhelmingly outweigh the positives."

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Key Takeaways

1. Big Beautiful Bill:

   • A major budget reconciliation bill introduced by Donald Trump promises significant tax cuts, increased defense and border security funding, but at the cost of exacerbating the national debt by $3.8 trillion over ten years.
   • The bill disproportionately benefits the wealthy, with substantial tax savings for high-income individuals and corporations.
   • Significant cuts to social programs like Medicaid spark concerns about the welfare of vulnerable populations.
   • Internal Republican disagreements and external criticisms from figures like Elon Musk highlight the bill's contentious nature.

2. OpenAI’s Strategic Moves:

   • OpenAI's acquisition of Jony Ive's design firm suggests a strategic pivot towards integrating sophisticated hardware design with AI technologies.
   • This move positions OpenAI to potentially disrupt existing tech landscapes dominated by Apple and Google.

3. Flying Taxis and Urban Transportation:

   • Archer Aviation aims to introduce quieter and more efficient flying taxis in Los Angeles by the 2028 Olympics.
   • While the technology shows promise, practical challenges such as regulatory approvals, affordability, and infrastructure integration remain significant hurdles.

4. Interconnected Concerns:

   • Fiscal policies like the Big Beautiful Bill have far-reaching implications not only on the economy but also on social welfare and technological advancements.
   • The hosts emphasize the need for a balanced approach to taxation and spending to ensure sustainable economic growth and societal well-being.

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This episode of Lemonade Stand provides a comprehensive analysis of current fiscal policies, their societal impacts, and the future trajectory of technological advancements. The hosts offer critical insights into the complexities of budget legislation and its broader implications, while also exploring exciting developments in the tech industry that could reshape everyday life.

Transcript

[Aiden]

Foreign. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Lemonade Stand. Our top story tonight is the big beautiful bill from Donald Trump. That's right. With me today is my co host, Atriok Aiden. Aiden.

[Atriok]

Aiden. Who just got off his week of being psychoanalyzed by the comments.

[Aiden]

Yeah, that's true.

[Doug]

Were you?

[Atriok]

Yeah. Dude. So many comments last week were about like, this is actually so fucked up that Aiden was excluded. I can't believe they treated.

[Doug]

Oh yeah, can we.

[Atriok]

Okay, I want to crash out of.

[Aiden]

Jesus Christ. All right, well, breaking news. We're going to talk about our friendship.

[Doug]

Wait, friendship discussion really quick.

[Aiden]

And then beautiful Bill.

[Doug]

I didn't rewatch the episode. Right. Did you, did we edit out Doug explaining clearly that they reached out to us? Because I got so many comments being like, wow, those two choosing to exclude Aiden.

[Aiden]

I think I didn't emphasize enough that one, we didn't really know what was going on until right before and two, we assumed it was like they reached out to us. Two directly. It's like, we're the streamers. This is a stream thing. They must want streamers. And also when you're reached out to randomly and asked you want to interview Gavin Newsom, typically, at least for me, I don't go like, hey, can I bring my friends along? Like, I don't do that. This is a fucking like open house party. It's not a frat house. Like, I do. It was like, yeah, sure, dude, we'll do it. I didn't want to rock the boat.

[Atriok]

There was, there was just a lot of people getting upset. Like some people were legitimately angry on my behalf. And I was like, whoa, we can pump the brakes, okay?

[Doug]

But you, that's what I'm crash out about. So I look at the comments. There's like a thousand plus comments, right? If there's a comment on like, hey, I don't think Aiden's position on Estonian property rights is right. Aiden's in response. A thousand paragraph response. If it's like, Aiden must think these guys are pieces of fucking shit and he hates them.

[Atriok]

No, quiet, quiet.

[Doug]

Didn't feel the need to correct the record.

[Atriok]

I love the. Yeah, know I let the. Yeah, just where I, I, I did respond to one. There was one person who was particularly vicious and just, just absolutely coming down on you guys. And I was like, all right, buddy. Like, yeah, you can, you can chill out. It's like, I'm here. I'm telling you that it was fine. It was honestly, it is a way, way funnier to have not been there.

[Doug]

It was so funny.

[Atriok]

That's why. That's why it's way better than getting to be there and give one softball question in 15 minutes. Like, that's what. That's what I thought. The story of not being there felt better time on the podcast than anything else. But.

[Doug]

And just to come clean, I mean, Gavin News and asked specifically if Aiden could join the podcast. I told him you were sick. I said you couldn't make it. And we don't. So I don't.

[Atriok]

So that. That detail.

[Doug]

No, I feel like that you don't need that. Like, focus on it. But that is.

[Atriok]

You didn't mention that. And we're moving on.

[Doug]

The big beautiful, beautiful.

[Aiden]

Wow, dude.

[Atriok]

Why do I have a bowl of time?

[Aiden]

I don't know. I have friends from, like, college. I'm going to a wedding this weekend. And my friend was like, hey, are you going to, like, come to. Come to New York a little early for the wedding? And I was like, hey, sorry, I can't make it. He was like, I get it. You're hanging out with Gavin. It's like, that's like the whole thing now. I do look. And like, I. I felt a little bad, but again, it was, like, not clear what was going on necessarily. And we're talking to people about future opportunities and being very clear. It's got to be all three of us.

[Atriok]

Ye.

[Aiden]

For the people who have a parasocial relation with. With the podcasters where we'll remedy that in the future after getting the funniest possible story out of it.

[Doug]

And the problem was they're parasocial and they're in the comments, but they're not even in the Patreon comments. You know, if they're paying for it, then I will.

[Aiden]

Then you'll allow them to then.

[Doug]

Of course, we're friends and I can hear their thoughts. But if it's just.

[Atriok]

That's why if you want an extra hour a week, you go to patreon.com and we just did the book club episode too, anyway. But we do want to get back to the big, beautiful bill because I think that has come up a couple of times in the last few weeks, and it's been a big, big topic in the news. But I think, like many budgeting, spending bills in general, I think it's really hard to wrap your mind around what does this actually mean. And this week, Doug is going to be helping us break that down. Yes, he prepared it for this episode.

[Aiden]

And.

[Atriok]

And then I think we'll fit a couple smaller things in here towards the end. Like, apparently in Los Angeles they're trying to get some air taxis ready for the 2028 Olympics. And also a couple follow ups from the last episode. So I kind of want to get into this because like my entire life is you hear about tax, like tax cuts or the budget bill and those things circulate through the news. And I, you know, from even when I was in high school listening, I listened to NPR in high school and when I drove to class, I was like, this sounds interesting. I don't know what it means because nobody ever explains what the 400 page, thousand page bill actually synthesizes down into.

[Aiden]

Okay, so here's the. If you're too lazy to listen to the whole podcast, here's it synthesized into a single thing. Right now, the US Is like a train heading towards a cliff. We talked about this last week. The cliff is the fact that our deficit and our debt are growing so large that eventually we will not be able to finance things as a government. And we are getting precariously close to a disaster scenario, as we talked about last time. But thank God Trump and the Republicans got elected because they came in with the whole promise of we're going to cut down spending. And unfortunately, we looked out the window of the train and the Republicans are strapping jet fuel and fucking nitro rockets to the side and shooting us towards the cliff.

[Doug]

Faster for some. So fast they cross the gap.

[Aiden]

I don't understand. Are they trying to jump the cliff?

[Atriok]

Coyote from last week, has anyone thought about what happens to your country when you manage to hit like 300% debt to GDP? You actually come around the other side in the middle.

[Doug]

But if you get a cross, it's.

[Aiden]

Like a speed bump. You go fast enough, you don't notice it. The problem, though, is unlike what the Republicans think it is, it's actually like the outside of the breath of the wild map. It just stops you from. You don't get to like loop around to the other side. All right? It's not. This is a flat earth situation situation.

[Doug]

Okay.

[Aiden]

Okay. So. So I'll outline basically the core kind of vibe of what's going on with the big beautiful bill. And then there's a lot of different angles to talk about. So at its, at its core, this is a reconciliation bill. We can come back to that later. But that's less, I think, important than our Congress is voting on a giant bill. It's going to affect a bunch of budget things. In fact, it has to affect budget things to even exist. Unlike a lot of other Bills. This only needs a majority in the House and the Senate, meaning it's just, you know, 51 people in the Senate. Usually for people who are not aware of American Politics, you need 60 votes in the Senate. That's not the case here. And then right now, Republicans have the majority in the House and Senate. So they can just get the Republicans on board, they're good to go. So what exactly are they trying to do? They're trying to pass a bill that's going to change spending. If you pull this up, Perry, here's a nice simple chart. And this actually is like, describe it for audio people.

[Doug]

Just like a basic overview.

[Aiden]

It's just showing that what the bill is going to do is instead of reducing spending because we're weigh, weigh, weigh the fucking debt, we're increasing it. This actually has a bunch of costs to the government. This chart is a little misleading because spending and income, these are all estimates, by the way, largely by the Congressional Budget Office, which are change a lot based on different factors. But this is basically just giving you a rough idea in terms of trillions. The estimate from the CBO is over 10 years, which is the timeline that I think is easiest to think about. It's going to add about 3.8 trillion to our debt.

[Atriok]

So I also want to jump and clarify low end, even clarify one thing. The 60 vote requirement in the Senate from my understanding is because we have gotten so used to using the filibuster in the Senate to stop legislation from being passed that you need 60 votes to overcome the other side's filibuster in order to get legislation passed. So if nobody is filibustering, then a majority is enough for legislation. But now we need 60 for almost everything because of how common filibustering is.

[Aiden]

So instead of, instead of then, you know, the idea of the filibuster is you have to get the support of the minority party. Yeah, like that's the idea is you can't just dominate everybody if you have 51 Senate members. But then instead they do things like this, which is reconciliation bills. We can get into the details of later. But this is basically a bill that gets to bypass that. Okay, so some quick outlines of what's going on. This as quick history passed the House of Representatives last week. That's why right now it's breaking news flag.

[Doug]

They're debating it in the Senate.

[Aiden]

Yes. So it has to be approved by the House Representatives first. It passed by one vote. The vote was 215 to 214. So just barely passed several Republicans are not stoked about this. It's now going to the Senate. It needs to pass that. And then Trump is saying, yes, I love this, and he's the one calling it a big beautiful bill. And then he'll pass it. Right. So it's halfway through right now. It now needs to go to the Senate in its current form. This is what we're looking at on spending, approximately. So primarily this is going to cost a shitload of money because it's going to make all these tax cuts that happened in 2017 permanent. So if you want a simple takeaway from this, the main thing that is going to cause a bunch more of our debt to increase is because all these tax cuts that we did in 2017 during Trump's first office are set to expire at the end of this year. But this is going to make them permanent. You can see it's going to add about 3.8 trillion, essentially lost revenue that we would have made.

[Atriok]

And that's over the next 10 years.

[Aiden]

Over the next 10 years, yeah. So $3.8 trillion. There's also things like we're putting $144 billion into the Defense Department to upgrade the military, putting 67 into border security. So this is for building a wall.

[Doug]

Just because 144 billion additional dollars.

[Aiden]

Yes.

[Doug]

On top of 850.

[Atriok]

So this isn't that big. So it's, you know, low key. They need it.

[Aiden]

Yeah. If you are looking at the visual here, this is, this is the change over 10 years of what we would have done otherwise. Right. So this is 3.8 trillion more that we are, are going to be in the hole because we're losing all those tax revenues. This is a 1 time 144 for the defense Department to upgrade, modernize the military and all that, which has some merit, although we don't have a lot of money and that's one of the areas we can get into. Bunch of money for border security, all this. So this.

[Doug]

Why can't you upgrade and modernize the military with the first 850 billion?

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Why do you need an additional.

[Atriok]

Many are asking. Many are asking.

[Doug]

You know, that's a lot of money to modernize the military. I don't think that's like the baseline. That's not that much money.

[Aiden]

Come on. You know how much it costs?

[Atriok]

A billion. That's like two more F35s.

[Aiden]

It's barely going to get anything, dude. The one thing I like about it is they're, they're like focusing on unmanned drones, which is, I Don't let me. I'm not a fan of unmanned drones, but that is where the military is going. So at some point you got to invest in that. But also, $800 billion could probably cover a few drones.

[Doug]

That's what I'm saying. I think it's like when we want to do new stuff or like, well, we can't take the old stuff out, right? That's the, like, cut our spending on tanks we're not using. We have to still buy those. Those.

[Aiden]

Well, what we can do is take health care from poor people, which is what we'll get into next. So, yeah, you might be wondering. So this slide, I think, is the main thing. This, this massively impactful bill. This is, you know, gonna be the type of thing that, that Trump and the Republicans go, we fucking did it. We delivered. We got you those massive tax cuts permanent. We're adding to that. We're making the military strong. We're making border security. This is basically it, right? They're spending trillions and trillions of dollars to tax people less. Less in quotes. It's, you know, the amount that you're currently being taxed, it's not going up more into the military, more into border security.

[Atriok]

And.

[Aiden]

But then they are making some cuts. So where are they cutting the spending? In theory, they should be cutting tons of spending because that's what the Republicans are supposed to do. That's like one of their core tenets, cut taxes, which they're doing.

[Doug]

And it used to be the Right.

[Aiden]

So they nailed one of the two, which is of their, of their goals. Right, which is cut cut taxes. But ideally you also cut spending. And so they are cutting spending primarily for Medicaid and welfare. So you can see on this chart for people who are listening, Medicaid, they're going to cut about 800 billion for Medicaid over the next 10 years. Medicaid, put very simply, is health care for poor disabled folks in the community. There's two things that sound very similar. Medicare is for retired people people. Medicaid is for very, very poor people below a certain poverty level or if they're disabled or whatnot.

[Atriok]

I have a quick question about the Medicaid cuts. So my understanding is that the way that this will work is they're employing new work requirements.

[Aiden]

Yes.

[Atriok]

For people on Medicaid, which as a byproduct of that, a bunch of people who are currently on Medicaid will no longer have access to it. Is that the way that the savings happen?

[Aiden]

Yes. So we can come back to this, but the short version and even have a little chart for it later. The short version is that Medicaid covers a certain number of people. And one of the key thresholds of whether you're eligible for Medicaid, where basically the government will pay for all your health care, is your income level. So if you are, if you, it's about 134% of the federal poverty limit. So I think it's like $20,000 right now. If you make 20,000 or less, then you're eligible for Medicaid. And what this is going to do is say if you are single, you don't have dependents and you're able to work, you need to be working, otherwise you're not eligible for Medicaid. So it's going to take a large chunk of people who technically are able to work, they're able bodied, they're, they're not taking care of other people. You now, if you're in that position, have to be working in order to be covered for this stuff. That alone is going to be saving 800 billion over 10 years. But it's also cutting millions of people for Medicaid. Like the reason we're saving 800 billion is not because they're negotiating for drug prices.

[Atriok]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

It's because they're kicking people off of Medicaid. That is the gist of it.

[Atriok]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

So other things are going to be insane. Yeah. So that's one of the big ones I want to talk about. We can kind of get back to that. But you know, the reason that Democrats and many people are upset over the big beautiful bill is because again, we're doing all of this saving and reducing taxes for people and the majority of it is coming from Medicaid and welfare.

[Doug]

So we pull up a chart that I just said, Perry, I've pulled, I've shown this before. I just think it's relevant if you go back to your, your red one.

[Aiden]

And then red one here.

[Doug]

Relevant. It's just, you know, just to be so specific on where these tax savings are going to, you know, it is not to poor people, it's not to or middle class people. They're getting some, don't get me wrong, they're getting some.

[Atriok]

Yeah.

[Doug]

But proportionally, proportionally the majority of the tax cuts are going to people that make, I mean the biggest beneficiaries. If you make over 914,000 a year, which is, you know, la podcasters and what it doesn't this, it's a ridiculous, you know, I mean, you can't put it any more stark than that, then, like, this is who's getting tax cuts and the savings come from kicking people under 20 grand off health care. That's. That's crazy. I don't know. It feels. I feel like a caricature saying it, but it's like, how is it. How can that be explained any other way?

[Atriok]

I remember being in a valorant solo queue game a couple years ago.

[Doug]

Wild.

[Atriok]

And I promise this ties in.

[Doug]

Okay, okay.

[Atriok]

And it's pretty rare for politics to come up in that environment. But someone, I think I said, I was. I just said something in the game. And then one of my teammates said, I bet you. Fuck it, I bet you're a Biden voter. And I was. And I was like, I mean, I did vote for him. Like, who did. Who did you vote for? And he's like, trump all the way, baby. Or something. Something to that effect. And I was like, really? What's your problem with Biden, man? It's like you don't want to. It's like he. Trump's cutting taxes for people like me. It's like he's helping me. And I still think Biden should win. And I was like, it's. This is. He's doing things. He's doing bad things, man. This is, this is not working. I. That just reminded me of this conversation because I. The tax cuts are all heavily for the richest people. If you did not listen, Atrioc just put out a clip of the most recent, recent Patreon episode we did on his channel public for free, where we spend a bunch of time talking about and more in the actual episode talking about why cutting taxes for the wealthy has consequences, especially in the long term. And this is just continuing to further the problem. This is taking the tax cuts that we pushed through in 2017 during Trump's first term and making them permanent. They don't even have an expiration date anymore.

[Aiden]

Yeah, the tax cuts. Again, looking at this, the huge takeaways from this, of this bill are the Republicans are going to make these tax cuts permanent, which is going to cost, you know, cost us enormous amounts in revenue. And then most of where we're saving money, if at all, is through Medicaid and welfare and also climate change and other things we can get into. So this started in 2017, the tax cuts and Jobs Act. This was Trump's big legislation that he did, and it did three main things. One is it cut down individual tax rates. So you as an individual pay less in the United States for taxes now. But Again, we'll talk about how it's kind of distorted towards, towards rich people. The second is small businesses. So if you're a small business who has like to put it, it's a pass through business, but let's just say small business, you get a 20% reduction. So that was actually a deduction on federal taxes. So that's actually also a pretty big thing for small and medium sized businesses. And then there is a corporate tax cut where they go from. I forget what it was.

[Atriok]

I think it's down from 35 to 21.

[Aiden]

Yeah. So yeah, something like that. 35 to 20. So there's this like. Absolutely, yeah. 37 to 21. So the amount of taxes that a Corporation paid was 37%. It goes down to 21%. That is massive. That is a huge, I mean it's like billions of dollars in tax savings for major corporations if you look at that.

[Atriok]

So I looked this up last week in the wake of recording the last episode because we, in the main episode we didn't talk much about raising taxes in the context of the national debt. I think that was because we, I think we forget because we talk to each other all the time that we had talked to each other about that in the previous like Patreon episode we recorded and then talked more about it after. But I don't want to ignore that part of like dealing with debt. Raising, raising taxes. If you look at the corporate tax rate and the cut that we made in 2017 and the drop in revenue that that happens, we. We cut down from I think like 300 billion in, in 2016 to something like 200 or just over 200 billion the following year when this tax cut goes into place. And then we follow those years with record corporate profits. Right. So the number even at 21% does climb into like the four hundreds and does, you know, we do see record corporate tax revenue in America even with that cut, because businesses grow so much during that period of time. But if the tax rate had still been 35%, you would be adding an extra 200 to $300 billion a year in tax revenue if the corporate tax rate had stayed at 35, what it was in 2015.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah.

[Atriok]

If you just account for the difference in percent and maybe not.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Atriok]

I don't know. Shifts. Yeah, oversetting the tax.

[Aiden]

There's three huge categories that happened in 2017. The individual tax cuts, the small business tax cuts, the big corporate tax cuts. The big corporate ones are already permanent. That already is. That's not on the table here. So what we're talking about is just whether taxes would go back up for individuals and small and medium sized businesses. I don't know why the fuck the corporate tax one was permanent and the other two which might actually help people aren't. Don't understand that. That's crazy to me.

[Atriok]

But that was one of the big criticisms the first time around when that legislation passed. The idea that the small business ones were going to accept expire in the corporate, the giant corporate world. I did want to ask a question. Here is when we talk about these cuts for small businesses versus the way that the corporate tax taxes work. If either of you know the answer to this, how do you gauge like what is and isn't a small business of like who gets to indulge in that in that tax cut? Like how is that actually judged?

[Aiden]

And yeah so in this case it's just specifically the type of business. So if you are a corporation, a full on C corp in the United States that's, that's the corporate tax. If you are an LLC S corp anything with pass through so for people are not. So like we've all dealt with this. If you're a small business owner, even if you are, if you're like a freelancer, you are a sole proprietorship which means it's pass through. If you are, if you make a small LLC to be a video editor or do it, you know, I don't know, a haircut salon or whatever, you're probably a small business where the money just passes through from the business to you. And so basically they're the same thing to put it simply. Whereas if you get to a certain size you make a proper corporation. Yeah, it's a fairly solid filter of like if you're in a pass through small business you use these type of business structures and otherwise you make a corporation which is bigger, it has more taxes.

[Doug]

So you're saying if you're a one man Uber driver or only fans person you should turn yourself into a corporation and not an escort.

[Aiden]

Have a bunch.

[Doug]

Of extra taxes but so that you can avoid the taxes.

[Aiden]

There's a corporation. Yeah but yeah, no, I mean there's real cost of being to actually upping to a corporation. Although maybe people want to do that if this doesn't go through because then their cost is jumping up. It's all very strange. So let me, let me like finish the kind of overview of this and we can dive into what's interesting or what we're. Yeah what we're feeling because it's all. There's a lot here. So again, the main thing that this bill is doing, cutting a shitload of taxes and which is going to cost us a ton of money and then putting in extra money to Defense Department border. We are taking that money from. Not even that money. That, that is a bad way to. For it. We're mildly compensating for how much money we're going to lose and spend by cutting, you know, a few moments.

[Doug]

All this green does not add up.

[Aiden]

Right? Yeah. And that's what this first slide is like. To be clear, we are not cutting enough to justify all the spending. And so we're cutting from all these, these various topics we can get into. And that is really the gist of it. I mean, we have some interesting things because we already mentioned it, are not showing up. Yeah, like here's an example of. I made a little calculation, a little code. If we want to calculate how much money you would save based on that 2017 thing, which actually it's already visual, so I don't need to bring out my laptop, but I'll just leave on this.

[Doug]

Is that what you'd say?

[Aiden]

I'll leave on this. So imagine that you make, you know, let's say at the bottom here, $50,000. The idea your tax rates got cut right. In 2017. That's the whole thing that we're talking about. So due to those tax cuts, if you made 50k, you're. You would pay about $2,300 less in taxes. This is asterisk, simplified. If you were to itemize and do all these other things, you get fancier. You can see that if you make $10,000, the difference in that tax cuts and job deck saves you about 360 bucks. If you make 50,000 a year, you save 2 grand. It's not bad. If you make 100,000, you save about 4 grand. Not bad. And you can see 200 and 500K, also several grand. But then if you make a million dollars, you're getting back 20,000. And in fact, if you go even higher, if you make 5 million, your tax cuts are going to be 100. You're going to save $120,000. If you make 10 million a year, you're going to save $250,000. And so we got to thank God.

[Atriok]

Somebody has to ease the pressure on the, on the aid, on the people.

[Doug]

That make 8 to 10 million dollars. I agree.

[Aiden]

So I think this is an interesting graph that is, you know, again, if you're, if you're just Listening. Essentially, these tax cuts, which are supposed to. The argument for tax cuts, right, is you stimulate the economy, you get more money into people's hands, they'll spend it, it'll stimulate everything.

[Atriok]

Exactly. Because you know what that 10 millionaire could use with that 250? He could all in on sheep. And then he makes, maybe makes a big play off of that. You ever think about the stimulation, the sheep Stimulation?

[Aiden]

I want to be more stimulated by millionaires. And we need money in their pockets to do it. I think this is a very illustrative graph of these tax cuts that are supposed to help people. You know, the primary benefit is going to come from being incredibly wealthy. And so there is a whole lot to do here. And there's even a crazy ass thing that they slipped into this bill, which again, the only way that this can be a reconciliation bill is it all has to be related to budget. So all of these things, they have to be like, this is related to our budget. That's why it has to be in this bill. One of the things they slipped in is that states cannot regulate AI for 10 years.

[Doug]

Oh, I saw that.

[Aiden]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there is now a.

[Doug]

If this goes through, you can't.

[Aiden]

If this goes through, there's a ban on regulating AI by the states. And it can only be done at the federal level for 10 years, which they say is budgetary because it's. The federal government doesn't want to have to like oversee and you know, the cost of what the state's regulation would do. That's a whole other crazy thing. So there's a lot to get in here. But this, again, right now, this is going to the Senate. The idea, the Senate right now, it's like split. So the Republicans have a slight majority. However, there are plenty of senators who are pissed about this. There's lots of people in general who are pissed about this. That, that analogy I started with, that was the Republican promise coming in to this election was like, we're going to cut spending. The Biden administration's been spending too much, the Democrats spend too much. We're going to cut this down, we're going to eliminate the deficit, we're going to make the debt. And they are doing the exact opposite. And so there are all these people, like I listened to all in this past week.

[Doug]

That podcast is Ron Johnson, right?

[Aiden]

They have become what, like guests or.

[Doug]

He was a guest on, at least.

[Aiden]

Not the one I just listened to a couple of days ago. But they have really started leaning more and more right over the past year. Or two that I've been listening to them. They are like staunchly shocked by this. And just like this is a betrayal of what was. Elon Musk is upset. There's senators like, so now we can kind of dive into any of this. This is a crazy ass thing. This is going to have a huge impact on our debt, people's Medicare coverage, the, the whole principle of, of the importance of our debt and whether we even give a shit. It's all crazy.

[Atriok]

It's interesting. I read an Elon quote. So we've talked about Elon a good bit on the show and you know, taking, if you were to take Doge at face value and Elon's goals at face value, which I don't think they necessarily deserve at this point. But if you, as, as people who were making an effort to lower the deficit and cut spending effectively, Elon looked at this bill as someone who's basically a part of the Trump administration and said, I think a bill can be big or it can be beautiful, but I don't know if it could be both. Musk said, and he's, he's been pretty critical of what looks like right now, which is funny because, you know, I'm not one to laud his performance so far anyway. Like, I don't think they're doing a, I mean they're doing a good job to begin with. But it's funny that even Elon is looking at this and is like, this doesn't seem good or in line with what we were supposed to be pursuing.

[Doug]

Yeah, I mean it undermines everything he said. Yeah, like the, the idea of bringing the deficit even close to balance is, is gone with this bill. Yeah, he criticized it. Republican Senator Ron Johnson from Wisconsin went on co podcasts criticize it. Rand Paulsman all over TV saying this is, you know, putting debt on our children. Doesn't make any sense. So there's like two big ways you can criticize this big bill. And one of them is that it's cutting things for that the government might be useful or important for, which is like Medicare for poor people.

[Atriok]

Like the things it's cutting or that's like the standard. I would say the main critique that I would have and also the critique that is primarily echoed by the Democrats right now. And then you have this pocket of the Republican Party where they're staunchly more in support of a balanced budget and they're like, this obviously does not accomplish that. Please cut more things in order for this to get through.

[Aiden]

And the rest of the Republicans seemingly are just like that, fuck it, spend more. Which is crazy. Yeah.

[Atriok]

Which I mean it's, it's crazy in. If you take this situation in a vacuum. I do think it's crazy if you take everybody at their word and what they believe in and what they want to pursue. I do believe that this seems crazy. But if you look historically over the past 30 years, 40 years. No going back to like going back to Reagan at the least. Maybe, maybe Nixon. Republicans do not have a strong history of balancing budgets in the United States. I mean recent Democrats don't. Don't either. But I would say that Republicans are even worse in that they tend to cut taxes at the same time that they increase the spending. I think the difference is like no Democrat has ever been willing to be brave enough politically to say like, oh, times are good right now, let's raise taxes. And nobody ever does that. But Republicans will cut taxes and then also increase the spending like the Democrats before them.

[Doug]

Yeah. I think it's fair side. You know, I was thinking about that during. When you were talking about your valorant time with the guy is like, you know my Biden pov, that type of Democrat is fully willing to increase spending as well.

[Atriok]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And not increase taxes. So the deficit also blows out. But this is, this is most likely worse because it also cuts taxes so the revenue goes down. You know, they're both, but they're both bad. What I'm trying to get is like it's unsustainable really. It's just, it's, it's problems for the young, for, for everyone who has to deal with it later so that you can keep things afloat.

[Atriok]

Now it's kicking the can further and further down the road. But the can is also getting like more broken and spiky the more it gets kicked.

[Doug]

But also getting bigger and heavier.

[Atriok]

You keep.

[Doug]

It doesn't.

[Atriok]

It's picking up other trash. Like what's the one game where you can roll around and pick up.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Aiden]

But also it's stupid because the Republicans ran on a, on a promise of we're not going to kick it anymore. We're done kicking it. And now they're going up with a fucking toe poke. Gigantic launch towards the goal.

[Atriok]

It's like, dude, can I want to divert this slightly? I was saving this for another time, but I thought this comment was particularly interesting. On the last episode. It was a person who said that this podcast is becoming too left leaning. This fear mongering about the national debt is such an insane like anti right wing talking point. And I was so confused by that because hasn't moderating the budget and moderating. Moderating spending, at least on the surface. I'm not saying, judging by the actual actions, been a core tenet of Republican platforms for like 30 years. Am I wrong about that?

[Aiden]

Fiscal conservatives. That is in theory what the Republican Party.

[Doug]

I think it's creating a schism right now in the Republican Party between what you might call the tech right and the other right. I don't even know what name to that. Yeah, maga. Right. I guess. But like the tech right specifically is clearly like this is a line that they're hitting because you're talking about the online podcast. But also Elon Musk also there's like a, there's a clearly uncomfortability with how blatant this is and people feel lied to. Yeah. I mean because they really ran on it. It was not especially this time around. It was really discussed especially among those circles.

[Atriok]

It was a really common talking point from people who were a little more, let's say a little more in the middle, a little more debating who they would vote for leading into this election. I feel like for those people who weren't the die hard MAGA crowd, the main reasons they were voting for this administration were to deal with fiscal things like this.

[Aiden]

Let me say something. I was, let me phrase this very carefully. I didn't, I'm not glad Trump is president. But that was one thing where I was like, okay, at least this we have an administration which is explicitly going to address this. That felt very hopeful to me because that was not a focus at all with the previous administration. So when, when Trump was elected, although there are many things I disagree with him on, to the, to that guy's credit of this has become too left wing. That is an area where I'm like, I super agree with these priorities. We have to get spending under control at some point our politicians need to address this. So this was an area I was really hopeful of. Like that would be fantastic if that is a result of the past four years or of the, of his, of his administration, whatever. And this is again and I share I think that same sentiment with like you said, many people in tech who is a lot of who I follow and the tech industry became super political in the last year before Trump's election because they were being told over and over we're going to deregulate and spend less. And the deregulating piece Trump is delivering on to be fair, but can I spending less.

[Atriok]

I want to villain chair this perspective. Yes, And I want to ask you your personal opinion, but maybe also your guys's overview of this situation is this sentiment was super common. It was something I saw across a ton of people. I think there's a base economic concern of people who are like, there's inflation and my groceries are more expensive and gas is expensive and I don't like those things. Of course that's like the base economic concern. But when I talk to a lot of people, you know, people like my, like my dad for instance, or a lot of people in the world of tech or random people just in my life, they often brought up the issue of the deficit and spending insolvency. Why do you think so many people were confident that this administration was going to address that when Trump did nothing to manage that in his first term? What they he blew up a deficit that was even larger than the Obama administration before him. He did nothing to curb the deficit in the first.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Atriok]

So why did anyone have the confidence in this administration to make approach it any differently this time?

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Atriok]

Where do you think that. Do you think it's just timing? It's, it's like, well, you just had four years of a guy you don't like or it didn't perform very well and you're just hoping the other guy does better. I just want your guys's maybe both your personal perspective and an overall perspective.

[Aiden]

I think for, for both me and more so distilling the many people and let's say the tech space that I've been following over the past few years, two pieces. One is the Biden feeling. The feeling that Biden, Biden administration was spending too much. It felt like this is causing inflation. Our debt is just growing at an insane level. This isn't good. I have felt concerned about the amount of spending with every administration, but it felt like, oh God, we're even increasing beyond that. And so that was one of it that was at least being called out. And so in theory, on paper, again, I didn't vote for Trump. But like they, the Republicans are saying this is going to be a priority this term. So one is that they're saying it and the second is Doge, like they are putting again people who are hugely influential in the tech space, like him and David Sacks, guys who have been talking about this and find it huge priority and saying we're going to give them the tools and create a space to tackle deficits.

[Atriok]

So there's a level of action being promised that didn't exist before. Yeah, figures that are being put into place that at least theory were supposed to address.

[Aiden]

Right. And people who, I mean, because, you know, credit to them, they've put, I mean, a lot of people don't like this, but some very, very successful people have. Are helping with this problem in the government right now. Antonio Gracias is I believe is his name. He's another one of like this guy who's like crazy wealthy and he's now helping to try to sort out fraud and stuff like that on paper. I think this was very exciting for many people in the tech space or center or fiscal conservatives or whatever because you're saying, okay, here are guys who have a track record of spending efficiency in their personal business lives. They're being brought into the government. And that was not really what Trump did in his first term. Right. He was just bringing in a weird collection of people this time. It was very much like, I think a lot of the pitch of the Trump team was. Or the Trump administration when people were voting for him was, look at this team I'm collecting, right? It was RFK Jr. And it was fucking Vivek and it was Elon and just this like strange giant umbrella.

[Atriok]

Just the worst Avengers movie you've ever seen.

[Aiden]

And I think that that very intentional. Like, I don't think. I think maybe people who just hate Elon Musk underestimate how deeply loved he is in the business and tech space, how respected he is in terms of the success of his businesses and the idea that a politician who's going to be president is going to bring in that guy and give him influence over the government, allow him to slash stuff. Somebody who's done this over and over and over to varying degrees of effectiveness, that's really, really enticing for a lot of people. So at least from a more tech focused perspective, that is what I saw repeatedly.

[Atriok]

I mean, I can definitely see the angle.

[Aiden]

Right? And now those same again, like literally the same people. Elon all in are like, this sucks. We were so excited for this first fucking breaks.

[Doug]

This is the first thing. There's a lot of things that Trump's done that you could probably break on or like twitch on. They've been pretty all in his corner. Pun intended.

[Aiden]

Yeah. And this tariffs, they were like justifying tariffs.

[Doug]

And every week they would, you know, right.

[Aiden]

This, this same podcast that used to be, I think pretty moderate and balanced, like has become like, we're defending what Trump did this week, every week. And Elon is infallible still, which is wild to me. And.

[Doug]

But this was a, this was a. I mean, because this is what I think this is. You said it was like a betrayal. It really is. Like, you can't be so direct in your messaging on what you want to do and then do it. So exactly the opposite. And not think people are idiots. You have to, you have to assume that everyone is an idiot to not feel betrayed. I think this is like one of the most direct betrayals of messaging. I think Doug answered it. I mean, I saw this firsthand because I, you know, I do economics commentary on my stream and, and I made plenty of videos during especially the last few years of Biden where I was like, dude, this is unsustainable. What we're doing a trillion dollars every 100 days. So I'm not happy with this. And so I attracted sometimes some of these people that were like, more interested. Like, why don't you look at Elon? And I think Elon was the big. He was the big magnet to be like, it's different this time for these people. This he's here and it's going to be different. This. And obviously, you know, I've been skeptical from the beginning on that and But I was also, you know, I liked.

[Aiden]

I hope until pretty recent it's been a bummer. I really, I'm like the all in guys. I was like, it was a long time because they just. I used to just admire him so much. And then the past few years it started to be like, come on, come on. And then the past six to 12 months is really was like, man, he.

[Atriok]

Just keeps running it down under Tower. And I just.

[Doug]

Well, it's funny. He's like totally like in the past, I'm talking about two weeks, he's like done. Yeah, they. They either kicked him out or he's done. He's like, I'm not. I'm back to 24 hours in the factory.

[Aiden]

No, no. So this is he this on Twitter, he like quoted a guy who theorized this and he said he did the bullseye emoji, which is somebody said Elon tried and he was in the government, wanted to get all this cutting and spending and he has realized that Congress isn't going to do it and they don't actually care. And now he's going to focus on what he thinks actually matters, which is increasing gdp because that's the other way we potentially get out of this if you. If our productivity grows immensely. So he has he explicitly charitable way.

[Atriok]

Yeah, that is the extremely charitable. And I'm sure Elon would like to embrace that entire interpretation. Nothing says Grit, like sticking it out for four months. What are we talking about?

[Aiden]

But that is, I think it's, it's illustrative that the, I would say the, the focal point of this movement of we're bringing in the big guns to tackle the deficit and make the government efficient. That guy, the face of it, the most vocal, the most visible, he has explicitly said, this is fucking hopeless. They're not going to stop spending money. I'm going to focus also.

[Doug]

Dude, it's funny. That's crazy team, the super team. Because I am now distinctly remembering I read a lot of these big ball substacks. No, I read these subs. Not, not big balls, big ball subs. I read these substacks from like 30 year finance guy. I just like reading their or like people that worked in the energy industry long time. I just pay for this. I got to read. And there's these. Plenty of these guys are Republican. I'll just be honest with you. Some of these guys are like, I've been in Wall street for 30 years and the deficit's out of control. And one guy specifically, he wrote this whole impassioned piece and I'm paying for this. I'm like, I better fucking read it. And it's about how, listen, Vivek Ramaswamy is going to make. Use this guy as the real deal and he's going to make Doge actually be serious. And before Doge had even begun, they kicked out Vivek and this guy had to publish a retraction, you know, on his paid subsec, where he's like. And it's like, you know, it's like a one paragraph retraction to a nine page article about Vivic. He was like, yeah, I don't think it's happening, dude.

[Aiden]

They just brought, they brought. I think what Trump did well is they brought in a team team that was just a repudiation of everything else. Right. They brought in RFK Jr which is like a you and they bring in Elon. It's like you and like that appealed to people who are just really, really upset.

[Doug]

Which is, by the way, somewhat on a base level fair in that I don't think it was working.

[Atriok]

I don't know.

[Doug]

I think in general the system is not working for people, for regular people, for, for almost anyone, for small business, for anyone. The system is not working.

[Atriok]

Yeah, the anger, the anger at its base and the is justified, the direction that it is directed in and the people that get to wield the anger are not standing the example.

[Doug]

I love to use is like, maybe we all agree that the One Ring needs to get thrown into Mordor, but if Gollum tells me he's the guy, give me the Ring, I'll do it. It's like, just because you said it, just because we're in words agreeing on this principle does not mean that I can trust you, dude.

[Aiden]

And then, and then we gave the Rings to Elon Baggins who walked up to Mordor, looked out, the landscape was like this. I'm out, I'm leaving. There's too many.

[Atriok]

He just gave up.

[Doug]

You didn't tell me there was going to be yours.

[Aiden]

It's been four months I've been walking to Mordor. You're telling me it's going to be another three months of walking through Mordor?

[Atriok]

Yeah, it was a long dream. You made the whole Fellowship and you're.

[Aiden]

You'Re giving up like a going back to the Shire. I'm going to farm about a week.

[Doug]

That's why I knew Doge was fucking doomed from the beginning was when at the very announcement they were like, yeah, we're going to have this wrapped up by July 4, 2026. And I'm like, we have 50 years of overruns in government spending. You're going to solve this in a year, in a year and a half, you're going to just solve it and be done. That's. I mean, that's so stupid. From the outset. That's such a.

[Atriok]

It's going to come out with, you know, full self driving taxis and yard D and D. The yard. Okay, on the subject of you, let.

[Aiden]

Me quickly just cap this off. I want to point a few things. We've been mostly talking about the deficit and last week the episode, if you missed it, largely about how the debt of the United States really can destroy the country in a lot of ways. And there's an argument of like, if this continues, eventually we can stop affording things. That's ultimately the problem with the debt. At some point people will stop loaning us money and when that happens, we can't pay for most of what's going on in the government. So there. This is a catastrophe that we are heading towards that the politicians are ignoring. However, for the Republican side, if you are a Republican, the, let's say deficit and debt element of the Republican pitch going into the election, that has been soundly not delivered on at all. However, they did do other things, which is that they're going to cut tax rates. They're doing that. Assuming this passes again, it has to go through the Senate and there's a big question of like, what's the Senate going to do? It's, they're pissed there as well. But they, if this goes through, they did cut taxes. They said they wanted to increase and re bolster the military. They're doing that, putting a shitload of money into the military. They're talking about the border. Right? They're putting a ton of money into the border.

[Atriok]

I wanted to talk about the border specifically because from my understanding, the majority of the money that they have allotted for the border is to continue building the wall.

[Aiden]

Yes.

[Atriok]

And I, let's, let's first, I want to start with, I take deep personal grievance with this administration's approach to handling immigration right now. I think it is unconstitutional and immoral. But if you voted for Trump with the ideals of how he was going to approach immigration in mind, you wanted him to stop illegal crossings and reduce like issues at the border, then spending $47 billion on the wall and is insane to me because as far as I understand the current policy approach is, has already radically reduced the number of crossings all time level, all time low of illegal crossings in general and new people applying for asylum. So if you like his approach to border security and the goals that he had in mind, it's like if the goal is already mostly accomplished in that regard, why do you, why are you okay with spending $47 billion on extending the wall? It which is, I mean I heard.

[Doug]

A quote that has stuck with me which is that to a regular person, any number ending in alien sounds the same when it comes to like politics discussion.

[Aiden]

Stalin quote. Stalin said that.

[Doug]

You, you brought it back to Stalin actually when you were talking about number of people that there's a billion million million. It's all, it all sounds.

[Aiden]

If you lose $1, it's a tragedy. If you lose a trillion dollars, it's a statistic.

[Doug]

He said that it wasn't about money.

[Aiden]

I asked Chad gbt I don't know. You're asking me.

[Doug]

All right. Anyway, you know, I, I just don't think that is a factor to be. Again, I'll just point out that like.

[Atriok]

I don't think the hip hop. I'm not surprised. Surprised by like the. Oh, I can piece together two points here and like point out some level of hypocrisy. I'm not surprised by that part. I don't think people look at things or analyze things in their day to day life in that way. I just think at a. Why from a political perspective, why even throw it in it's like you've already won the battle, so to speak, on immigration. It's like, why even. What do you think the wall is?

[Doug]

Like a totem, you know, it's like a powerful political totem to unite a base. I think it, like, is a. A physical manifestation that you can point to of something being built or done.

[Atriok]

It's like rhetoric.

[Aiden]

If you're 150 to 30 in a basketball game, you don't stop shooting.

[Atriok]

Okay, yeah, but you put him like the G League team. I don't know.

[Aiden]

You give LeBron. You give LeBron 46 billion and you bring him in. Oh, dude. Oh, yeah. Crazy fact about. Okay, so the border security section, they're spending about 70 billion on border security in this. So 2/3 of it, 46 going to the wall. The other third is just. They're like hiring agents and adding tech for. And border stations and all this stuff just to help with immigration. And part of what they're doing. Stated goal of having the capacity to deport a million people a year. That is the stated goal of this is like, get the system to the point. That's what the other third of that money is going to. Is like, we want to be able to port. How many is that a day? Like 30,000 a day.

[Atriok]

Right.

[Aiden]

Is that the number of three?

[Atriok]

It's just not tenable to begin with. But it's also. I mean, I think it's immense problem with you're. When you're deporting a million people a year, you're not. Dude, you're not deporting, like, violent criminals, which is what the rhetoric, like, fueled. Fueled. You're deporting people that have. That have, like, lived here and suffered through the immigration system, as inefficient as it was. Also, as somebody who experienced it firsthand in the best circumstances possible, it was still shitty. And you're just deporting people who have, like, brought, like, crafted lives here, pay taxes, are a part of their community. It's the idea that you need to deport a million people a year is insanity to me to begin with. And that's what you feel comfortable spending money on. It's. It's. It's frustrating. It's very.

[Doug]

I mean, this bill is a disaster, man. I think this bill is like the first. Not the first. There's many, many, but this is like one of the first big massive rubber meets the road of like, how unsustainable. I think this. This policy, like all this stuff just now, it's really hitting in terms of like what we're going to change our spending on. And it, it just doesn't make sense. It doesn't seem coherent. It seems incoherent. The whole, the whole thing seems like a bunch of petty grievances packaged up in a way with no plan to spend.

[Atriok]

Can I, can I hop in here with a petty grievance? One of the small things that they throw, threw in and I noticed this when reading an article was that they're cutting the IRS direct file program. Do you guys know what that is?

[Doug]

Yeah, it's that new program where it's. You don't need to use TurboTax or all that so you can just directly file with the irs, they send you your return essentially and you can sign off on it.

[Atriok]

Yeah. So there's this introduction of that option for finally to have like a government available most other countries doing your taxes a lot simpler and a lot cheaper because the government, like the US Government has most of the information that you need to file and prepare your taxes ready to go. You shouldn't have to be filling out so much information in most cases like the average citizen who's you know, putting their W2 into the system and going through TurboTax. Yeah. And, and going about that. Right. The. And there's been criticism to this policy from Republicans since the beginning. There was an interesting quote that I read from two Republican senators I think Mike, Mike Crappo and John Barrasso.

[Doug]

His name is Mike Crappo.

[Atriok]

I mean it's C R A P O Trust that man Crapo. I don't know.

[Doug]

I'm voting Crapo. They.

[Atriok]

They wrote this. We write with serious concerns regarding your agency's recent unilateral and unauthorized action to create a permanent Internal Revenue Service direct file tax preparation program. The American people do not want an all encompassing IRS acting. Acting simultaneously as the tax collector, tax auditor, tax enforcer and tax preparer. The I think if you sold this idea of like the government is like taking over your tax submissions to like there's a way to demonize which is so funny.

[Doug]

Government hands off my. My tax collection is fucking absurd. But even, even reading that out loud as if it's their real thoughts is it's a. It's Intuit TurboTax lobbying. No they spoken like a puppet up their ass out of their mouth.

[Atriok]

It's not the level of lobbying for that side of the industry is the way the reason and the way this will be defended on the side of the tax companies like like the turbo taxes and the H and R blocks as they say, there's been ways to, to file your taxes for free for years, which is kind of true. I don't know if you guys have filed just a W2 in a long time because all of our taxes, because we own businesses have, have changed a lot. But when you just submit a W2 on things like TurboTax, if you. There are ways to submit for free, but one, they try to upsell you every other page that you flick through while you fill out your information. And people just, I think people, because taxes are a confusing process. They add on little plans and things as they go that they don't necessarily need. So the messaging isn't very controlled to begin with. It's made to pull money away from people and then for any sort of deductions or basic tools that you might need beyond your general W2 taxes, they charge you heavily for stuff like that.

[Doug]

I mean, I worked at Nvidia while streaming for a couple of years and I was doing both and they started to get pretty equal. And I remember doing my TurboTax Nvidia W2 and trying to add my streamer income and it was like 10 pages in a row of clicking through every single one. It would fear monger me into saying that I'm missing some free money or that you can't do this. Anything I wanted to add, it would, it would put me to a payroll. I ended up. And obviously I was spooked because I didn't know how to handle all these different things at the time. I have a corporation set up, so I ended up paying for like the ultimate premium TurboTax plus package with three different bonus like features. Like I was buying a battle pass for fucking Valorant and it didn't even do a good job at the end of the day. It didn't even get a job because.

[Atriok]

It still requires your input as the.

[Aiden]

Person who do all the things.

[Atriok]

You don't have the accountant with you helping you sort through it all. So the reason why this stuck out to me is this is one of those things, I think, like when you're talking about antitrust legislation being utilized against like a grocery merger, for example, there's so few people lose on this being available. This is just fundamentally good for this service to be available for free to the average citizen. And the bill removes this and they are promising that it will be replaced by a quote, public private partnership that will still allow 70% of citizens to file for free. And from my perspective, this was a step in the right direction of making taxes slightly easier and slightly more affordable for people. It wasn't a program that was used by many. I think only something like only 160,000 people used it in the first year. But I think that's because the marketing and communication around it was very bad. Most people didn't know that this had become an available option and it had limited rollout in a bunch of states. Right. But it was clearly, to me, a step in the right direction. Something that only serves to benefit the average citizen by it being available. And for some reason in this bill, it's getting snuck in that we're gonna remove it. And I think if I were to villain share this sentiment, the idea that the government is inefficient and the IRS as an institution is not well run and we don't know how to effectively spend public money in this country. So by handing it off to a private company, we can more efficiently operate something like this. But it's already a service that has been dominated by lobbyists, private sector companies for decades. And it is a shitty. It's the shittiest experience in the developed world as it is now. And you're like saying, no, we need to make this one public option that we just got recently more private.

[Doug]

Yeah, I mean, I just think even entertaining it as like a real thought is. It's not. No, nobody assumes that this person is speaking in good faith. This is, this is just to benefit Intuit TurboTax, who spends a lot of money on lobbying. That's that they make a bunch of money. They have a monopoly on that. I wanted to, I wanted to bring it back to, you know, the criticisms that were levied by Elon Musk and other people against this bill because Trump responded to them just a few hours ago.

[Aiden]

Oh, interesting.

[Doug]

And said he kind of deflected, you know, because he said, yeah, we should.

[Aiden]

We should point out really quick. So this bill, this is old. It's Congress. Congress is making this debating what it is. They need to pass it. So it needs to be passed by the House of Representatives. It was passed by the House. Then it needs to be passed by the Senate. And then the President signs it. He is vocally supporting this thing. It is not his bill, but he is stirring up support.

[Doug]

He's pushing it.

[Aiden]

He's pushing it really, really hard. So he is super proud of this. He's taking credit for it. He's convincing all the Republican congressmen to, you know, support it and trying to get concessions behind the board. So this is not his. But he's influencing it and he's super.

[Doug]

He has lended his marketing prowess to calling it the big beautiful bill.

[Aiden]

Yes.

[Doug]

He is threatening.

[Aiden]

He is claiming it's primary.

[Doug]

Any Republican person who doesn't support it because again, they only need the Republicans to get it through.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Doug]

They don't need any Democrats.

[Aiden]

And the Republicans aren't all on board with it because of all these different issues. Yeah.

[Doug]

And so someone asked him, you know, what he thinks about Elon disagreeing with the bill, and he said, my reaction is a lot of things, you know, and then kind of pivots away and then goes, listen, we'll be negotiating that bill. I'm not happy about certain aspects of it, but I'm thrilled by other aspects of it. That's the way it goes. It's very big. It's the big beautiful. But the beautiful is because of all the things we have in it. Because it's big.

[Aiden]

Well said. That is because.

[Atriok]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aiden]

All these fucking numbers that I've been showing, that's the first time it's made sense to me.

[Atriok]

Yeah. I think, I think if we were to. To wrap this up quickly, it's this. It feels like an antithesis. Even if you were to take this administration's goal at face value and a lot of people that are part of it, like Elon Musk, this bill clearly, even according to a large number of Republicans, stands against those goals and it stands against reducing the deficit goal.

[Aiden]

Many of the goals that they stated are fulfilled.

[Atriok]

Yes.

[Aiden]

But while betraying this giant goal that was supposed to be there.

[Atriok]

Yeah. And.

[Doug]

Okay, can I just. Can I. Because I just want to make it so clear that this is going to get forced on us whether we like it or not. What I'm trying to say is like, I think for the average person, for our entire lives, it's been kind of like, if you kick the. Can it, who cares? What. What does it actually mean? And I'm saying we're at the point where it is now. You know, I want to bring up. I want to see if I can send a chart here.

[Aiden]

Oh, the treasury bond. Yeah, treasury bond. Super important.

[Doug]

So important.

[Aiden]

This is a really, really big disclaimer.

[Doug]

This is the big disclaimer that kind of makes it real. Now I'm sending the link to maybe you have a thing. But, but you know, for our borrowing costs, which is like the United States goes out to the world, goes out to pension funds in America, goes out to you and me. I own some treasury bonds. And they say we need to borrow money to fund this massive deficit because we don't have enough to do all things we want to do. And we'll give you 4%. Everyone in the world has now said no, that's too low, we don't trust you. And so the amount we have to offer keeps rising. The U.S. 10 year and the U.S. 30 year are rising so dramatically because we have to offer more and more interest to get someone to trust us enough to loan us their money. Which is like what happens in countries that are in these sort of debt spirals. Again, I'll send one more link. I wish you could pull it up and I've shown this article before but I think it's relevant right now. Again, the IMF International Monetary Fund is talking to the United States. Like we are a developing country now in that we people are. It's like if, like if I was going to loan Aiden money, maybe I've loaned you money consistently because you're a deadbeat and you need money all the time.

[Atriok]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And then you know, normally you've offered me a small little bonus as a little interest, as a taste. But then you tell me, hey man, I need to borrow more money than ever. Also I'm quitting my job. Also I'm buying a Ferrari. I am not going to trust you. I am going to demand more collateral, more obligations, higher because the risk has gotten so much higher. I want to put it really simple. That is happening now and it's not thought we were friends, it's not fake anymore. It's like this is, this is, this is real. And our costs are rising as we speak. Like it's becoming unsustainable. The world is looking at us like with wary eyes and people are, are pulling their money out of US assets.

[Atriok]

I want to say like villain chair. Let's take that guy's comment from earlier and say you're fear mongering about this. How bad could the consequences be? This is not a big relevant talking point like people say it is, but we just made an entire episode about that.

[Doug]

We did. I think it's worth watching.

[Atriok]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And how this spiral happens in other countries, whether it's Japan or Greece or. Dude, speaking of Greece, I show you that link. Yeah, dude, recently our 30 year borrowing costs are higher than Greece. We are the world's biggest economy with the world reserve currency, largest military and people are more trusting of Greece to pay the money back in 30 years than us. I can't make it clearer than that. Like that's a problem. And that's before we cut all the taxes and you know so it's just people will feel a measurable decrease in their quality of life if this continue if we don't do something about it. And I think that's where I can handshake agree with someone maybe on the tech right. Who's like, we have to fix this. I think we have to fix this as well. But if no one's doing it, I.

[Atriok]

Think, I think also it's like remove this conversation from the context of the deficit or the national debt. I do not think for reason. We, we spent basically an hour talking about why raising taxes on the wealthy and byproduct raising taxes on corporation matters a lot in like a functional society. And I don't want to retread that entire conversation here, but I do think a general critique of this from me is the idea that we are continuing to cut taxes, which is what we have done for the better part of 50 years, while we make cuts to things like the poorest people's health care, food stamps, gender affirming care. Like I do not think that those things as expenses for tax cuts that are predominantly enjoyed by the wealthy while we increase military spending and border security spending is the right thing to do. I just think it is the wrong thing to do. And I say that with my big, you know, refer to the, at least the clip we just put out where we talk about why raising taxes is important. But that's, that is, you know, that's kind of the criticism that I start with. And then you layer it with the pressure and the political. Sorry, the pressure in the economic situation we're in as a country because of the debt.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Atriok]

To me there's just no wins with this bill. Regardless of where you sit. There's very few wins that you, that you can find.

[Aiden]

And again, I don't feel this but if you're a Republican who doesn't really care about the debt of which there are many, and you care about all of these other maga versions virtues, this is doing that.

[Atriok]

Sorry if you're not, I think if you're not really, really wealthy and also don't care about the deficit in the future of the country in like an economic sense, there's not that many things to cheer for here. That's what I feel like. I do think there's interesting things to be said about like there are some tax cut aspects for poorer people and like middle class people. Like the.

[Aiden]

It includes tax.

[Atriok]

The growth of the. We're increasing the child tax credit credit. I think it has all.

[Doug]

It has the, it has the no tax on tips and stuff there.

[Aiden]

No tax on tips.

[Atriok]

I mean, I don't agree with the no tax on tips.

[Doug]

I don't either. But those are the things that are thrown to.

[Atriok]

Thrown in there regularly. Okay, so you are right. It's like you can latch onto tidbits that you could support because it just feels like the general course of the bill has, has a very.

[Aiden]

I don't know, I, I think in most regards it succeeds on what Republicans want. It just fails spectacularly at reducing spending. And so if you don't care about that, which clearly a lot of Republicans don't, and clearly most of the country seems to not care that much, then this is great. It's, it's nailing a lot of what it's reducing taxes for people. If you're rich, it's great. If you're lower income now there's no tax on tips and overtime the border's getting more, the Defense Department's getting more like it's delivering.

[Atriok]

You guys are right.

[Aiden]

Is delivering on all these. And there's all this stuff we didn't even talk about about they're cutting down, they're increasing the salt deduction. So people in high tax places get stuff. They're rolling back a bunch of climate tax credits. So one of the areas they're making money, which we didn't talk about, we're going to save hundreds of billions of dollars because we're reducing all these tax credits that the government gave for clean energy development. I think that's fucking stupid. But if you are somebody who's like, who cares about the climate, let's just drill, let's get more oil, let's get more, you know, carbon. Like let's do that. That that industry is cheering right now. They're loving it. AI regulation that's being clamped down on, I should say, it's, it's like being solidified that states can't clamp down on it. So there is, from a Republican's perspective a lot of victories here that is overshadowed by this monstrous failure.

[Doug]

Speaking of AI because unless you have anything you want to add because I feel like we've kind of covered our thoughts.

[Atriok]

You're so right. I think I'm ready to move. Move on. I think to me, for me to make a broad general statement of this having no wins, you're that I think there is a very traditional things to cheer for here in that sense. And you're. And you're totally right. So where do you want to go from here?

[Doug]

I want to go to not closed AI. Open AI. Whoa.

[Aiden]

Which to be clear is a closed system.

[Doug]

Yeah, it's a closed system but will not be regulated because of this new bill. I want to talk about OpenAI because there's like a big business story. I think it's interesting. I want to talk about it in that OpenAI has just purchased Jony Ives. If you don't know who that is, he's the designer of like every major Apple product you might know, especially the look and feel. I wish I had a list but like the iPad, the iMac, iWatch, MacBook, almost everything.

[Atriok]

I would say if you're somebody who's been interested in tech and like the especially growth of Apple in the 2000s, Jony I've is almost like a, a deity figure in terms of the value he brought to that company.

[Doug]

Yeah, he has that sleek modern design philosophy.

[Aiden]

Sleek, modern scalp right there.

[Doug]

And he designed. Yeah I got here imac, ipod, iPhone, iPad, Apple in terms of look and feel. He also was deep on how the iOS works, like how the sleek design of that. And that has been hugely credited with giving Apple a unique luxury brand status that allows them to sell hire marked up phones and make a gazillion dollars and be the most valuable company in the world. Well, he left Apple a few years back and started his own design firm that hasn't really done that much. It hasn't made a ton of money. Some little one off projects here and there. And then out of the blue, OpenAI bought his company for $6.7 billion. Again this company made maybe 200 million in revenue and profit. Almost nothing. It was a really expensive team. So it wasn't like it was worth 6.7 billion except for it's an aqua hire basically to get him and his close design team, which means clearly OpenAI is planning to make a physical hardware device. This is a guy's specialty. That's what he want, that's what he's always been good at. OpenAI is clearly seeing the future is we're going to get out of this Apple system because in the post mobile phone era two companies, Apple and Google have kind of dominated all of tech by being the physical device that you have to go through the physical support system, whether it's the Play Store or the Apple Store and everything has to pay them a tax. Everyone has to bow and scrape to those two companies. Zuckerberg is talking about this. Facebook's a big company but they've always been second tier to Apple and Google who own the product that they have to be delivered on. And so that's why he's so big on the metaverse and trying to make glasses and he's trying to find any way to get a hardware system out of the Apple verse but he hasn't been very successful. But OpenAI has ChatGPT which now the fifth biggest website on the Internet is getting 500 million users like a day. It's blowing up, people are using it, they're getting off Google search. It's becoming this big new paradigm shift and they are thinking that their next step to domination here to be to changing tech and making a new paradigm from the Google the Apple era is to make a physical device. Now they haven't leaked what it is but it clearly, I mean what I saw, you know, I looked at speculation, I looked at like stuff that would leak podcast he's been on the idea is something that is screenless, physical, carried on you and is very heavy in AI and I assume it's like, you know, you've seen those terrible rabbit pins. Yeah, those all did really poorly. But obviously Johnny, I've is a different beast and Chad has infinite money. Right. So there could. I want to bring this up because I think it's interesting with the way tech has been and what this means right now. This is like such a, a sea change for the industry.

[Atriok]

Oh that's. I didn't realize because when you guys had kind of talked about the headline version of this before we were recording, I think my expectation was he was just going to be dealing with the design of like the software or the implementation of how you interact with it. But the idea that they're working towards a physical product, I mean I imagine some very good version of your phone that you only have to talk to that you carry around all the time. That seems a lot worried.

[Aiden]

There is a prototype that nobody knows about but they've. It's been. Yeah, they said there is. They have made a thing completely captured.

[Doug]

Our imagination is what they said. The first product they've been working on and it's. Yeah it's pocket sized, contextually aware screen free and is not smart glasses. So you assume it's like the rabbit or the pin. But he also said those products were very poor products that have. Don't have new ways of thinking. That's what so. But there's clearly something going on. Like this is like a clear push to change everything about what the tech space has been for 10 years.

[Aiden]

Can I say something? Oh, sorry, I'll let you finish.

[Atriok]

It's not that crazy that Doug wants to talk about it.

[Aiden]

Man, I.

[Doug]

You cut my Medicare.

[Aiden]

I mean it's. If you want to keep going, it's all right.

[Doug]

No dying go, please.

[Aiden]

Here's what. I'll kind of give the tech perspective here. Fuck yeah.

[Atriok]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

Fucking yeah. Dude has a cool ass hardware and shit. It'll be awesome.

[Atriok]

That's kind of my. It's so rare to. When. When we talked about tech being like a cornerstone of the show when we were making it. I think one thing that I was a little sad about was growing up tech was so interesting because new physical things were coming out all the time. And it feels like in this era of AI, but even before AI, things were so software focused and the idea of a new game changing device coming out, you know, except for the Vision Pro, which was game changing, which it did change.

[Doug]

Can you guys imagine life before the Vision Pro? I can't even remember what it was like.

[Atriok]

We should if we could do one episode all with vision. But I think this just a little me is excited in the same version of like you ever seen like MKBHD is like first YouTube videos where he's a little kid and he's talking about like a laptop to the camera. He's using like an old shitty camera. It's really cute. And that's how I felt growing up when I looked at new physical things in tech. I was so interested and excited when just stuff would get announced and dropped. And this kind of feels like that now that you've shared it with me. It's like the idea of something new and groundbreaking finally coming out and not just as the iPhone 17.

[Aiden]

That yeah, no, I feel the same. And there's a general sentiment in like Peter Thiel talked about this where there's like a famous quote he said which is like we were promised flying cars and instead we got 140 characters. Meaning that like decades ago we were like, there's me flying cars in a decade or two. And instead the biggest thing was Twitter. Right. And so software has basically dominated the tech industry for the past couple years. Nobody really gives that much of a shit if the iPhone 16 has whatever, you know, new camera in it. Like it just, it hasn't been that innovative in the hardware space compared to what it was in decades before. And the cool thing that I would say is one of the reasons that I think AI is exciting is that it is going to accelerate hardware development and potentially this is going to come up with what you're talking. But like as an example, self driving cars, you know, we've talked a little bit about Waymo in the past and it is. I got that feeling when I got into Waymo. I was like, oh my God, future. I was just pointing at the car and going, future, future.

[Atriok]

When. When my Waymo stopped on a dime to avoid hitting the homeless guy that walked into the street, I. I was like, that's crazy. I would have hit that guy. Like, this is. This is an insane thing that the car just stopped itself in front of somebody.

[Doug]

It is quite cool to see tech that makes you think future, right?

[Aiden]

They just be like, this is future. And this is a major jump up from what we are used to. And one of the cool things that AI will enable is that it will allow a massive acceleration of robotics. So one of, for example, was something like Optimus, Tesla's robot, or there's many, many, many different companies making hardware now. Nvidia talks about this a lot. They are specifically designing chips that are going to allow physical systems to simulate an environment. And the idea is like, if training a robot from scratch to move like a human would take decades to really get right, instead of having them physically train in your lab for eight hours a day, you could have them run simulations, let's say mentally, and do a million of them in a day. And so the level of the rate at which robots can learn to interact with complex environments is going to accelerate to a degree, which with that makes all of these things feasible that weren't before. The idea is you could build a system that can automatically build a house, whereas before that is too complex. So AI is dramatically accelerating robotics. I think these types of things are going to be much more rapid over the next 10 years that every year or two we're going to be like, holy shit, did you see this? And I think you have an example of it.

[Atriok]

Yeah, it's cool that this links together so well, because I didn't know about this at all. And there's this announcement, at least a hopeful announcement of these new air taxis being introduced in Los Angeles. The company called Archer Aviation is, has been working and they're trying to get them approved by the FFA, FA, FAA in time for use at the 2028 Olympics. They're hoping apparently to get them approved by the end of this year for commercial use, at least for testing. And I kind of saw this at first and I was like, you know, what's the difference? Is this really that different than just a helicopter?

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Atriok]

How is this actually different? And I don't think it's. I think the big changes from what I can read looking at the article is it has way more, way more space, way more engines and is way quieter than a helicopter. And it's something that is more suitable for common public use than a helicopter is because you know, when you're near a helicopter, it's incredibly loud. Like it's something that is not fun to be around. And if you had helicopters flying to the same degree of traffic that or even a comparable degree of traffic that cars were around the city, it would be miserable. And I think the idea is, you know, shutting down the noise pollution aspect and helping LA meet this insane goal that they have of no cars for the 2028 Olympics. They, they want to remove cars from transportation as much as possible for that event. Or like at least that was the stated goal a long time ago. With some venues still having parking for certain events, but strengthening public transportation enough in LA that the, I mean the amount of people.

[Doug]

I am so ready for that event to be a massive, massive clusterfuck. I would love if we're all flying around in air taxis. I, I guess I'm a skeptic on how la, which is already so choked, is going to stomach the, I mean, LAX alone, the increase in travel, all in that U turn loop.

[Atriok]

And we got the people mover coming. You know about the people mover. Yeah, people mover is going to save us. I mean there are little changes, you know, there are little changes L A has managed to make in the expectation of the Olympics coming in 2028 and little things like this. I do not think this air taxi company is going to be a central part, no part of what relieves traffic.

[Doug]

Imagine we're all just fucking zipping around.

[Atriok]

I think I was more intrigued by the idea of a more efficient, quieter helicopter being invented that had reasonable use for and is decently affordable enough for a normal ish person to use to get around a city. That is kind of intriguing, right? This, this almost back.

[Doug]

I mean the future matters a lot. I don't know how.

[Atriok]

Yeah, they haven't said anything about what, what pricing will be like.

[Aiden]

Is it driverless? Because I think I know those are being developed, but there are different levels of regulation I feel like. Haven't followed.

[Atriok]

I don't think it says it is, but I had. There's no way they approve a driverless.

[Aiden]

No, no, not to start but so, so there, there's a bunch of companies that are doing this and then they're farther along in the Middle east is my understanding. I last I looked in this was like A year ago. So it's probably out of date. But this, this is an industry that's, that's booming. And then obviously regulation is just one of, if not the most challenging thing. It sounds like most of these are functional and work and are cool. So I think the value, the excitement of the 2020 Olympics is not that these are going to fly everybody around, but that might convince the city to approve some of it. And then it actually starts. Right. Because just that first step is what's important. Just proving it a little bit. So if this is flying, if there's 10 of these flying around during the Olympics, that would be a big exciting media thing. Right? You're talking about, they're going, oh my God, in LA there's flying taxi. And that would be the, I think the impetus for then it to really start expanding in a major way.

[Atriok]

Did you ever see in, I think it was in New York, they tried Uber helicopter for a while. I don't think it's available anymore. And there's this viral tweet from years ago of somebody trying to get an Uber from Manhattan to JFK at like peak surge pricing. And they show the Uber options on their phone and the normal Uber X is more expensive than the Uber helicopter to jfk. And I think as, as, you know, far fetched as this seems for widespread availability in the near future or by the 2028 Olympics, the idea that something like this could be decently accessible one day is pretty cool.

[Aiden]

It will accelerate. It's going to accelerate. It's like with driverless cars. Like most people in the country statistically have not tried a driverless car and it still seems like this kind of weird form. Even most people in LA haven't tried one yet. Yeah, but the rate. Do you guys remember when Uber first started coming out and you heard about it? Yeah, it was like, oh yeah, you can call their phone. It's like, what? And maybe you were out like you know, after a bar or something of somebody. No, no, you should try this.

[Atriok]

Try it.

[Aiden]

And then like a year later, it's ubiquitous.

[Atriok]

Oh, it's so cheap.

[Doug]

Wow.

[Aiden]

Yeah, that's right.

[Doug]

$5.

[Atriok]

So cheap.

[Doug]

While we're talking, talking about Waymo, you know, mentioning self driving. Can you pull this image up? Perry, I'm sending you an image through. I don't know if you can, but they, you know, living in la, you see them all the time now. I don't know if you guys are.

[Atriok]

Yeah, yeah, they're around everywhere.

[Doug]

And the ridership data, which we're going to pull up here in a second is. Is gapping up huge. It's like really, really spiking. And they just passed 10 million total rides. And you know, it is starting to hit that breaking point at least here in LA where it's like people are familiar with it, they're comfortable with it and the word of mouth is spreading like the rides are going consistently well enough that people are willing to give it a try then so. And then you're seeing it everywhere, which is like a. Kind of a marketing. So you know, it's funny is the all the extra stuff is kind of like a marketing tool.

[Atriok]

Yeah. The fact that it's not a standard vehicle and stands out so much is the reminder that this is different and.

[Doug]

You should go ahead and also makes you feel safer. Almost all the extra bells and whistles. So anyway, it's been working. It's funny that, you know, as we approach Tesla's big June Austin day that.

[Aiden]

They'Ve been talking, you try to find that what the supposed launch date is in theory, Tesla is launching driverless cars in Austin, Texas within the next month. And I don't think it's going to happen. But yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Doug]

I don't know if it's going to happen but like it kind of needs to because they keep talking like they're the leader or the forefront of this. And as Waymo passes 10 million rides with like a better safety statistics. Less. Less accidents, less. As far as. I don't know Major. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's a couple borderline. But like the. The track record is good now I will say this. I want to give some. Some counterpoints that I've seen a lot of is that people are noticing as we most drive more and more on the road that they are notorious tailgaters. Like they'll. So people are brake checking them all the time. They. And I noticed it. I was rapping to a dinner recently and it was like on my ass and I was like, get. Get off me. It makes me uncomfortable.

[Aiden]

You are a boomer.

[Doug]

Like it does. So there's like complaints going around but as far as I know they just are really insanely fast.

[Aiden]

June 12th, that's in two weeks. No way. Wow.

[Doug]

And they're expanding. Waymo's expanding to South Bay and San Jose and I think other places. So it's like it's happening. They are rolling out and I wonder how that's going to measure up as Tesla has been doing a lot of talk for years now. Finally has to deliver they have to have this robo taxi service. Don't. I'm gonna do it. I'm just gonna scream.

[Aiden]

You just gotta keep it with you.

[Doug]

It's like in my way. It's in my way. Okay.

[Atriok]

The one, one thing I wanted to bring up because we were talking about the Olympics in LA and you were talking about what a disaster it's gonna be because we don't have very good public transportation infrastructure here and there's so many people that come to attend such a global event like that. And there's a, there's this weird thing with LA that LA is like particularly suited from a financial perspective to host the Olympics because all of the facilities are already built. Yeah. The city is big enough that all of these things get reused all the time. Unlike most cities, there isn't this gigantic expense to the country to host the games to which most of these countries do lose a of ton, ton of money on and then have these like ghost stadiums and buildings after the fact because they needed them for just that portion of time. And LA is perfect because all of these facilities exist. But then it is coupled with the fact that we are the only major airport in the world with like without a tie to like a train that's supposed to be getting built. We like suffer from horrendous traffic. Our metro accesses so few areas of the city relative to what it needs to. It's. It's an unfortunate clash of the city is uniquely suited to host the Olympics and to not host it at the same time.

[Doug]

Yeah, LAX is going to be a nightmare. I, I can just, I just know, I just know we're going to have headline think pieces on how LA's infrastructure has failed this. It's going to happen. It's going to.

[Aiden]

That's right. No, I'm here.

[Atriok]

We're going to. Somebody is going to go into the loop at LAX and come back out at Changed man, like 10 years later. You've gray hair. Yes.

[Aiden]

I think this is great. You're going to have all these famous people from around the world come into la LA and see that respectfully, it's a shithole. And that, and that will cause way, way, way more motion towards changing things. Necessity is the mother of invention. Having a bunch of prominent diplomats from other countries stuck in the U is the mother of adventure.

[Doug]

Talking about the weakness of American transportation.

[Atriok]

When he visited San Francisco, the tweet about nothing cleans up the street bank.

[Aiden]

Oh, dude, like, okay, can you imagine how many media outlets are going to be showing images of LA traffic and LAX and then show videos of China high speed rail like they're going to embarrass us and it's going to be awesome. I think it's great. It's going to be a great thing for the future.

[Atriok]

It's not that far away, which is crazy. One thing I wanted to talk about is I think in the spirit of we've talked a lot about how we're open to feedback, open to corrections on the show and we did a big episode about Greece, Greece's national debt, the consequences of national debt last week and someone had a really good follow up in the comments and they said the main correction on Aiden's presentation about Greece Greece during the quote good times did save money asterisk they actually saved a lot of money. They just chose to save money on low risk projects and infrastructure on top of many social welfare programs. Now going to the asterisk part. The great crisis of 2008 for Greece wasn't that they were in debt, it was that their assets were not possible to be liquefied at the time because the assets assets were either overestimated or fake altogether. Coming to the laggard list scandal the laggard list scandal is a list of politicians that were responsible for faking the numbers of Grace's assets, progress of investment plans, e.g. infrastructure plans, etc. And productivity of the public public sector. The actual scandal is in the fact that this list with the names was quote lost when demanded from European Court for due process. But the scandal of faking our economical status is a whole different case in itself. So when the crisis hit, what Europe had considered as prerequisites for member states to stay afloat ended up not being existent even though stated as existing. So yeah, Greece is a very special shithole. I am from there chill with a very special case for its economic crisis. And I'd say that it's not comparable to any other nation. And a couple other people brought this up as well that their initial what he's kind of getting at here is that their initial entry to the European Union was defrauded. Like they had faked a bunch of economic data about their country in order to get into the European Union in the first place. And when this all played out, it came to light that they had lied about so much of what got the membership, which was why this was even more of a controversy in the European Union. And I thought that was interesting because that was a little bit of bit of context that I didn't really have in the presentation Good for them.

[Doug]

You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you gotta line your resume to get the job.

[Atriok]

Yeah, to get the job.

[Doug]

What you got to do.

[Atriok]

And then they got to keep it.

[Doug]

Yeah. They couldn't get fired.

[Aiden]

Apparently they wrote the whole budget with.

[Atriok]

Chad GBT in 2008 actually ahead of the game. They were like Greece was using chat GBT when it was telling Dendy how to play Dota or. But using the dopa. That was the first. I think I talked about that. This is the first time I ever interacted with the companies. I watched the open AI Dota AI fight against Dendy in a 1v1 at the International.

[Doug]

You know that's not even. You're making a joke. It's not even that wild because the Greece finance minister left that job to work at Steam to do their economy for CS Go.

[Aiden]

That was the guy they hired.

[Doug]

I'm not kidding.

[Atriok]

You're fucking.

[Doug]

Isn't that crazy?

[Atriok]

No. You're lying.

[Doug]

I'm not. I'm absolutely not lying.

[Atriok]

Are you serious? I literally, I literally thought you looked.

[Doug]

Up Yanis Varoufakis and Steam. Look, look, look, look, look.

[Aiden]

Yeah, this was a big thing they.

[Doug]

Hired because I. Reese's new finance minister. The is Valve's former Steam market economist.

[Atriok]

Sure.

[Doug]

10 years ago.

[Aiden]

Wait, wait.

[Doug]

The state of the Eurozone economy could well be in the hands of a man who once monitored the sales of virtual goods via microtransactions in Dota 2 and counter strike.

[Aiden]

Okay, wait, so he started at Val. I know he was a big economist.

[Atriok]

I would have. I just want to be clear. I would have bet my life you were fucking with me.

[Doug]

Yeah, I'm not. I read his book.

[Atriok]

That's insane.

[Aiden]

Not that guy. His name is Yanis.

[Doug]

Yanis Varoufakis. Now I've read this guy's book. It's talking to my daughter about the economy. Yeah, I mean you can look up Greece market economist theme.

[Aiden]

Why is it hard to spell Yanis?

[Doug]

Come on dude, type in Yanis.

[Aiden]

Jesus Christ. No, not like that. It's with.

[Atriok]

No.

[Aiden]

If you just searched Greek politician who worked at Steam. Yeah, he was, he was this like very well known economist and it was this big deal when Valve hired him because it was literally. Valve was like essentially the first company to do microtransactions and they created the whole economy and they're like we're going to hire an economist. It was a wild thing. I remember that story back in the day.

[Doug]

I thought he. I think he did something for Greece prior then went to Steam.

[Aiden]

That's what I remember as well. And I don't think we should fact check that.

[Doug]

Let's go with it.

[Aiden]

This is a podcast, dude. It's not about facts. Come on.

[Doug]

Anyway, he's interesting guy.

[Atriok]

And Valerant gives you autism.

[Doug]

Yeah, that's just.

[Atriok]

That's just that actually common knowledge that if you just tack that in there, that might get you demonetized.

[Doug]

YouTube thing at the bottom where it's like this. Valer, I've been fact checking.

[Aiden]

Yeah, it is just like replace the word that he said with a different word from the episode.

[Atriok]

Okay.

[Aiden]

Don't have the V word. There have a different word.

[Atriok]

One Valerant. Use Valer.

[Doug]

Valerant gives you autism that. Well, that.

[Atriok]

The CDC actually backs that one up.

[Aiden]

No, no, no. It's vaccines. Give you.

[Atriok]

Valerie, what he thinks about that one.

[Doug]

I think even Fouchy would agree. Valer. It's got a root cause there.

[Aiden]

Guys, we got 10 seconds. What's the most urgent story we can cover in the last 10 seconds of this episode?

[Doug]

We have 10 seconds.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Okay. What is the most urgent story?

[Aiden]

What if people like they're Anthony Anderson.

[Doug]

Nicer to each other.

[Aiden]

What do I need to know in the next 10 seconds or to get by for this next week?

[Atriok]

What if we are breaking news on July 27? I'm going to find a Donald J. Trump in his home. Okay, cut it. Cut up.

[Aiden]

Okay. No, I've got. I've got it.

[Doug]

You got a story.

[Aiden]

So there's a lot, but it's pretend.

[Doug]

I want to go longer, so.

[Aiden]

Right, right, right. So what I want to do is, is cover more stuff that's kind of like breaking. Right. So something I really wanted to talk about is.

[Doug]

Scrolling.

[Aiden]

US Court blocking Trump's tariffs, the bulk of which will be temporary.

[Doug]

Actually, we can talk about that on the Patreon.

[Aiden]

And that was kind of.

[Doug]

I have a lot to talk about. It's a longer story, so we have to go to the next episode. But I want to talk about Trump being called a taco by Wall Street. Taco is a acronym that. I'll teach you what it is later.

[Aiden]

Nah, you shouldn't have said that. That was way, way better without the. That's it, everybody. Thanks for watching Lemonade Stand. Be sure to check out the Patreon if you want more of us yapping. Anything else?

[Atriok]

No, we got to do the paper thing on the way up.

[Aiden]

All right.

[Atriok]

Say thanks to each other that now we're meeting.

[Aiden]

Thank you so much for watching Lemonade Stand News.