Who Has The Cards? | Ep. 063 Lemonade Stand 🍋

Summary

Lemonade Stand 🍋 | Ep. 063: Who Has The Cards?

Podcast by Vox Media Podcast Network
Date: May 20, 2026
Hosts: Aiden, Atrioc, and DougDoug

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Aiden, Atrioc, and DougDoug dive into a packed week of business and geopolitics, using their signature blend of incisive analysis and irreverent humor. The main focus is on the recent Donald Trump–Xi Jinping summit, with side quests into U.S.–China relations, aircraft industry intrigue, the latest pandemic scare, weirdness in airline pricing, AI art debates, and personal stories from the world of tech layoffs. The show is rich in pop-cultural quips, sharp contrarian takes, and a running bit about who really “has the cards” in global power poker.

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Table of Contents

1. Trump–Xi Summit Breakdown
2. Key Geopolitical Takeaways
   • Iran and the "Cards"
   • Trade, Boeing, and Business Maneuvering
   • Taiwan: Strategic Ambiguity
3. Airline Industry Chaos: Pricing & Insider Trading
4. The Hantavirus Cruise Scare
5. AI Art: The Monet Experiment
6. Elon Musk vs. OpenAI Lawsuit Update
7. Aiden Knows a Guy: Cisco Layoffs
8. Miscellaneous: Quick Hits & Corrections

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Trump–Xi Summit Breakdown

Setting the Scene

• DougDoug claims he attended the Trump–Xi summit, joking about late-night diplomacy and casual run-ins with Chinese officials like Wang Huning ([01:06], [01:30]).
• The hosts paint the summit as highly anticipated but ultimately “uneventful”—but with significant diplomatic undertones ([03:11]).

Quote

“Donald Trump went to China to hang out with Xi Jinping and the Chinese government for two days. Drama, excitement, subterfuge. All of these happened during Aiden's flight probably. But the actual summit was pretty uneventful, to be honest.” – Atrioc ([02:55])

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Key Geopolitical Takeaways

Iran and the "Cards"

• China was expected to help the U.S. control Iran due to their deep economic ties, but “China has no interest in helping their biggest geopolitical rival out of the stinker they've got themselves into.” ([08:53])
• Trump publicly downplayed the Iran topic, while reports suggest it was discussed behind closed doors, marred by strategic ambiguity ([08:06]).
• Rubio straddled the line in interviews: praising China’s public stance against Iranian nukes but stressing the U.S. is the only actor “willing to do anything about it” ([10:48]).

Quote

"The analysis seems to be that China has no interest in helping their biggest geopolitical rival out of the stinker they've got themselves into." – Atrioc ([08:53])

Trade, Boeing, and Business Maneuvering

• Trump tried to wrangle “big wins” by pushing China to buy Boeing aircraft (amid their post-crash skepticism) and U.S. beef and soybeans ([13:13]).
• U.S. hoped for a deal for 500 planes; China only agreed to 200, less than previous deals ([14:54]).
• Hosts question why Trump champions Boeing so hard—pointing both to strategic manufacturing and Trump’s personal stock holdings ([15:55]).

Quote

"I have sold more Boeings than any human being on earth. They gave me award salesman of the year." – Donald Trump (clip played at [16:14])

• The panel tie this to a broader decline in U.S. leverage: “...not as much dominance that America has.” ([19:51])

Quote

"So, it's a failure. It goes back to again, like, there's just, there's not as much dominance that America has." – Aiden ([19:51])

Taiwan: Strategic Ambiguity

• Taiwan was the most critical issue for China: “If it is handled properly, the bilateral relationship will enjoy overall stability. Otherwise ... clashes and even conflicts.” ([24:15])
• Trump’s TV interview showed him hedging, refusing to commit to weapons sales to Taiwan ([25:40]).

Highlighted Exchange ([25:40]–[26:37])

Fox: "Should the people of Taiwan feel more or less secure after your meetings with President Xi?"
Trump: "Neutral. Neutral...I haven't approved it [weapons] yet. We're going to see what happens. I may do it, I may not do it."

• Hosts point out this ambiguity is frightening for Taiwan, as it signals to China that Trump may withdraw support if there’s a deal to be had ([27:30]).

Quote

“The obvious implication is get this chip stuff out of Taiwan so that we can sacrifice this pawn. Once that tech is out, I have no reason to care.” – Atrioc ([30:30])

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Airline Industry Chaos: Pricing & Insider Trading

Predatory Pricing Allegations

• JetBlue faced a class action lawsuit after a rep suggested clearing cookies/incognito mode might reduce prices; debate ensued over whether airlines hike prices based on personal data ([36:58]).
• DougDoug ran his own browser experiments, finding prices didn’t change ([45:01]).
• Discussion extended to how much companies track customer data using indirect signals—e.g., the infamous Target-predicts-pregnancy case ([43:08]).

Notable Bit

“If I'm going to her funeral, I can, like, send you an email or something or like, publicly buy you a gift on Amazon. So the cookie tracks. I'm ready anytime you activate me.” – DougDoug ([41:03])

Insider Trading on Prediction Markets

• Anecdote: Someone used a hairdryer to fraudulently raise an airport’s temperature sensor, betting on weather prediction markets via Polymarket/Kalshi ([47:01]).
• Bigger picture: Firms scrape predictive markets for insiders, then act on that info in traditional markets ([49:24]).

Quote

"They're analyzing polymarket to find people who clearly have insider knowledge. And then they're going, what's the bigger bet we can make off this?" – Aiden & Atrioc ([49:19]–[49:27])

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The Hantavirus Cruise Scare ([49:51])

• Small outbreak on a cruise, “Andes strain” of hantavirus (from rodents). Only 13 cases, 3 deaths; zero evidence of mass transmission.
• CDC & WHO say risk to general public is “super low.” Internet panic mostly driven by pandemic hangover and distrust of authorities.

Quote

“Honestly, [the] main story here is that people are freaked out because of COVID and distrust of government.” – Aiden ([54:41])

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AI Art: The Monet Experiment ([63:06])

• Social experiment: Upload real (but less known) Monet, label as AI, ask users to critique its "AI-ness."
• Twitter/X erupts with subjective complaints—“no focal point,” “colors are wrong,” etc.—despite image being genuine Monet.
• Atrioc and DougDoug use it to deride “hand/teeth” critiques and point to the psychological aspect: once AI is suspected, people find flaws, even when they aren’t there ([66:13]).

Notable Quotes

“…people just trying to downplay something basically fictionally just making up things of why it's so shit. Once they know it's a. It's more of a. A feeling than it is, like, the actual measurable impact of it.” – Atrioc ([65:58])

• The discussion pivots to broader AI art debates: Brandon Sanderson and Adam Neely cited as resources against generative AI dominance ([68:45]).

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Elon Musk vs. OpenAI Lawsuit Update ([72:07])

• Final verdict: Elon Musk’s suit dismissed due to statute of limitations ("You filed it too late"), not on substantive merits ([73:48]).
• Jury deliberation was quick; judge almost threw it out day one.
• Musk claims he’ll appeal, but panelists call this unlikely: “He knew everything long before—he just waited for OpenAI to get big” ([76:26]).

Notable Interaction

“What a weird trial.”
“So funny because. Yeah, it just feels so. Like, we did that episode about it and it was like, wow, what's going to happen? ... And this is the most—by far the least interesting part of it is that this happened like, nine years ago.” ([77:08])

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Aiden Knows a Guy: Cisco Layoffs ([79:10])

• Segment: Aiden’s friend survived Cisco’s recent layoff (5%, 4,000 employees); shares inside view:
  • Layoffs are an annual occurrence; not perceived as catastrophic within the company.
  • Severance generous (six months), plus job placement assistance—75% reported success.
  • Layoffs tied to re-org, not just cost-cutting (“We need more AI-experienced staff; old roles phased out”) ([87:00]).
  • Sometimes coincide with record profits—stock perks mollify the still-employed.

Quote

"The headline seems really heavy handed. But this is like a really normal thing at their company and the people who are laid off are treated relatively well." – DougDoug ([85:12])

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Miscellaneous: Quick Hits & Corrections

• Iceland military misunderstanding ([88:52]): DougDoug corrects prior episode—yes, Iceland is a strategic location, but still has no standing army; clarification spawns Nordic Facts running joke.
• Running gags:
  • “Aiden Knows a Guy”
  • “Nordic Fact”/“Aiden Corrects Previous Nordic Fact”
  • Marvel/MCU as an international bargaining chip ([23:34])
  • “If you want more Nordic facts, Patreon back to Lemonade…” ([92:28])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the changing U.S.–China power dynamic:

  “There was a clear power imbalance ... is just feeling different in this one today. So one of the big takeaways ... it felt like the first time American Chinese leaders have met kind of as equal.” – Atrioc ([05:54])

• On Taiwan strategic ambiguity:

  “Every country in the world has their own little song and dance on Taiwan... finding a way to say it in the right way.” – DougDoug ([25:31])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:06] – DougDoug’s “summit experience”/scene-setting
• [03:13] – U.S.–China summit “uneventful” but significant
• [08:06] – Iran discussion & China’s leverage
• [13:13] – Boeing, trade talk, Trump’s business interests
• [24:05] – Taiwan: Tension and diplomatic language
• [36:58] – Airlines, JetBlue pricing lawsuit
• [49:51] – Hantavirus cruise scare
• [63:06] – AI Monet experiment / art authenticity
• [72:07] – Elon Musk v. OpenAI lawsuit verdict
• [79:10] – Cisco layoffs: Aiden interviews a friend
• [88:52] – Iceland correction & ending gags

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Lemonade Stand demonstrates the guys’ knack for blending humor, first-hand anecdote, and shrewd business commentary. Whether analyzing U.S.–China “power poker,” poking fun at AI and internet culture, or extracting the human angle from layoffs, they keep the conversation lively and incisive for both business wonks and casual listeners alike.

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For more: Check out the full episode for Aiden’s running Nordic jokes, DougDoug’s browser price-testing adventure, and Atrioc’s relentless takes on AI, business, and global rivalry.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Lemonade Stand podcast. Aiden, what's with the glasses?

[D]

It was a crazy week for me.

[B]

What is that?

[D]

I just flew back in on the red eye. From where I was at the summit all week.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Explain. Wait, do you even have the. You're using your Apple laptop? Did you throw away all the devices that you were gifted?

[B]

Like, did you burn them as you got.

[A]

Where's your Huawei laptop?

[D]

They're treasured. They're at home.

[B]

You were at the Donald Trump Xi Jinping summit?

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Why were you.

[D]

It was a crazy week. Well, you know. You know, I've.

[B]

You got connects.

[D]

I've got connects.

[B]

I do know. I've got friends in high places and low places.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And the summit winds down, right? So you start hanging out, you start having a couple beers. It's me and Wong Huning. He's telling me all the shit that's going on at the Politburo right now.

[B]

Who's Wong Huning? I'm sorry, I'm not as informed as,

[D]

you know, for that fucking who. Wong Huing.

[B]

It's embarrassing, obviously, but if you could explain to me who Wong Huning is, that would help me a lot.

[D]

I'll tell you. I'm a lover of music, Dance.

[B]

It's not about his job. It's about who he is. You know what I'm saying?

[D]

You know, that's your problem. You don't care. You're always about work. You don't care who people are.

[A]

Okay, it seems like something you'd actually do if you heard that there's a big summit in China. You fly there and hang out in bars and nightclubs trying to. Trying to get drinks without all the.

[B]

Did you see, like every every 10 minutes from China.

[A]

Yeah, but he was invited. I feel like it was like a

[B]

different video of him, like eating street food and like mingling, really.

[D]

Me and Jensen were invited and we had a great time. It was just a crazy week. I was. And I didn't get a lot of sleep and I appreciate it. If you guys covered the summit. Tell me what you know about the summit.

[B]

I think your first hand experience is going to be more.

[D]

I think it's more because I lived it.

[B]

Because you expensed the flight on the limited guard.

[A]

And yet it seems to be probably better. It's like I hide it.

[D]

You guys lead. I interject with what I know.

[B]

All right.

[D]

Because I'm tired.

[B]

That sounds really good.

[A]

Captain America. Donald Trump went to China to hang out with Xi Jinping and the Chinese government for two days. Drama, excitement, subterfuge. All of these happened during Aiden's flight probably.

[B]

But the actual summit was pretty uneventful.

[A]

Was pretty uneventful, to be honest. But there's, you know, a couple things that we found that we thought were particularly interesting, starting with a little tiny country called Iran.

[B]

That's. That is a way you could start it. I do think that is an important part. I want to give like a little, little fun part. Just be real quick because just to get into that. Did you know that of the people invited, Margot Rubio, who, by the way, is sporting the Maduro fit here on Air Force One, his way of China, was previously been banned from China by the Chinese government for some comments he made. He's not allowed to go, but because he's one of Trump's invitees for this event, they found a loophole. China legally changed his name so that he is not the Marco Rubio that is banned, but he is a different.

[A]

Now, could you go ahead and pronounce both of those so I can hear?

[B]

Well, that's where I got our expert. Right here. This is. Want you to go ahead and knock that out. Ooh, it's a tone thing.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Tone.

[D]

No, it's. It's tough because it's like I don't even think you guys would be able to tell the difference.

[B]

One of the guys you party with, probably Liu Pingu here, said the sanctions target Mr. Rubio's words and deeds when he was a US senator.

[A]

Yeah. How many secretaries.

[B]

He's a different man.

[A]

Moved on. That's insanity.

[B]

I thought that was just a funny. Also interesting, you know how when I was there and we did the China episode, I kept talking about all like the AI Slop videos I'd see. Or, like, the stuff about Iran war. There was a lot of those when I was there that would be like this. It would be like a. Videos of Trump probably doing something stupid or mostly making fun of him. What I saw, my understanding is, for this event, they had all of those taken down.

[A]

The Internet.

[B]

Yeah, they scrubbed them. So it was like. It was a. It was a. I don't know, it was like a making fun of free zone.

[A]

It's funny. Like, we clean up our cities.

[D]

Yeah, it's exactly.

[B]

Yeah. They cleaned up the Internet.

[A]

They cleaned up their social media. Could you, like, before we keep going, what was the. I think everybody thought that this was gonna be, like, a big, epic thing, and we're talking about some of the notable takeaways, but what was the expectation of what might happen? What was the world where. This is like an insanely high consequence. Meeting. Meeting.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think there was two schools of thought going in. Oh, here's the thing. So if you flashback, like, the last time they had a real official meeting, it's nine years ago. Nine years ago.

[D]

That trip was crazier.

[B]

They were a spring chicken. Look how young he was. Trump was a mere 71.

[A]

You said he's seven foot one here.

[B]

Yeah, it's Wemby and Chris. And in that timeframe, it was a. It was clear a power imbalance existed between America and China that is just feeling different in this one today. So one of the big takeaways from this one was that it felt like the first time American Chinese leaders have met kind of as equal. It was like they both had something on each other. There was both of a tit for tat. They clearly both wanted something. They were. They were polite. It was a. It was. I mean, it was kind of uneventful. But that in itself is a story based on how previous ones went. Like there was.

[A]

Because previous ones would have been a little more domineering from the US Side.

[B]

This was Trump first coming in with his, like, sort of aggressive China rhetoric and, like, trade stuff. This is his first term, and, like, China was on the back foot kind of backpedaling, giving some concessions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was. It's a different. It's like a different tone. It was. It's a big deal.

[D]

The vibes on the ground were way different.

[B]

You weren't there at either one. And I can't continue this charade.

[D]

I mean, I think you're doing a pretty good job so far.

[B]

Thanks. Appreciate that. I appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Keep me honest. Keep me honest. And then the other thing is, okay, I'll start with Iran. I think that's one of the big stories is like going into this. A lot of people expected Trump to ask for help on Iran because there's only one country in the world, maybe you count Russia, but outside of that, there's only one that has any sort of influence or leverage over the Iranian government. They're the only ones that can be like, yo, if we call, you got to take our call and you got to listen because they buy all of the oil, they ship all this stuff to Iran, they sell them weapons, they just, they're so entrenched that it's important. And China, this, this might be counter what people think, but China has publicly said they want the strait to be open and they want Iran to not have a nuclear weapon. So like ideally there's some aligned goals there. When asked about it, Trump said they asked him if he's gonna talk about Iran there, cuz it's a big deal. He said, we have a lot of things to discuss. I wouldn't say Iran is one of them, to be honest with you. Cuz we have Iran very much under control.

[A]

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

[B]

But reports seem to indicate they did discuss Iran. Here's the thing, we'll never know the exact takeaway on the Chinese side, but the analysis that I was reading was even Aiden will not know this. Actually, you know what, tell me what is the analysis of the Chinese side? Cuz why didn't they. Despite publicly saying why wouldn't they?

[A]

Are they back?

[D]

I didn't say anything because I want to let you go. You live in your fantasy land where you don't know what I know. You know, and if I were to say what I know, then I'd be in trouble.

[B]

What would you. Okay, I see you're sworn to secrecy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

You get, you get Hu Ning Drake, Steve. He starts telling you crazy shit.

[B]

All right, well you just nod and let me know if this aligns with what he said.

[A]

Do like that you got their boots

[B]

on the ground but you're not allowed

[A]

to tell us about it.

[B]

The analysis seems to be that China has no interest in helping their biggest geopolitical rival out of the stinker they've got themselves into. Despite in the long term wanting the Strait to be open and Iran not have a nuclear weapon. They don't really have an interest in being like we're going to call in our favors, we're going to put pressure on, we're Going to.

[A]

We're just.

[B]

Why would we do that? They just have no interest and only to help out the US who's the only one? I mean, everyone's losing. I guess China is losing because of the oil being lost from the Strait, but they would rather take that. Take that. L for all.

[A]

Why do you have Jeffrey Epstein shaking Xi Jinping's hand on screen?

[B]

This. That's glasses.

[A]

Oh, that is not Xi Jinping.

[B]

That is Jeffrey Epstein. Though, as you can tell, this is Iran and Chinese Foreign minister meeting.

[A]

Jeffrey Epstein is Iranian and alive.

[B]

And they actually had this meeting right before the Trump meeting, and it was seen to be, like, a sign of China flexing that they could get this guy to meet anytime they like. They were kind of like, calling in the favor to show like, we've got it.

[A]

Even Xi doesn't even show up. Who's that?

[B]

Yeah, well, they're not going to send. Anyway. One thing about Iran, but this is Trump's tweet before this summit where he said, china is very happy that I'm permanently opening the Strait of Hormuz. Hasn't happened yet. This is back in April, but I'm sure it's happening since right now. Uh, he said President Xi will give me a big fat hug when I get there in a few weeks because of his ability to do that. And while I didn't see everything, maybe there was some late night hugging that I didn't see about, but they didn't have any official big fat hug, unfortunately. Um, so, yeah, that's the man. There's other things I could say, but, you know, I just want to say, like, the idea was maybe Trump could call in a favor or trade a few things and get more help on Iran. And it doesn't seem to be the case that the idea is that that is still an unresolved issue and it's still kind of on U.S. s plate.

[D]

Yeah. There was an interview with Rubio that I was actually just finishing before the episode, and he's kind of hammering home this idea of, like, he's clearly trying to walk. Walk the line between giving China credit and maintaining this idea of their relationship, while also saying that the US Is the only one willing to act like the. China's stance is that they don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon. And we, we really, like, emphasize that and we believe in that, but. But also, we're the only ones willing to do anything about it.

[B]

Right.

[D]

And he's. You. You. There's this constant thing where I. I think you'll see it come up in the Taiwan stuff later is you're trying to appease this relationship with China while simultaneously saying like, but we will act against them, Matt. We have the ability to act against them at any given time.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot of strategic ambiguity in these meetings where they all have to say China doesn't do it. They all have to say things that are like very open ended that allow for two different things to be true. So you're not pissing off your partner or your ally or, or your strategic rival without backing down on things you agree with. I mean Taiwan has a ton of things where they said it was like really ships crossing at the night saying two different things but making it seem like the same thing. Yeah, but you know, outside of Iran, they, they discussed, they discussed trade, they discussed rare earths and you had some stuff on the Boeing.

[A]

Yeah. So amongst a number of things.

[D]

Well, Trump, Trump proudly declared that a deal had been made on I think soybeans, Boeing, the deal with Boeing and then one more thing as well. Right. I think there was a third.

[B]

Might have been beef for some reason.

[D]

I think it was beef.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But you had gone in depth on the Boeing part of it.

[A]

Deep.

[D]

No. So Boeing as in. And I know it's like I could tell you what it is because we were chopping it.

[A]

You chatted about with Boeing with beef?

[D]

No, actually I had very few beef combos. That's why it was hard to remember. It was mostly about Boeing. So I'm going to see in a sec if.

[B]

All right, go ahead, check his math.

[A]

All right, so Boeing, like basically in terms of giant commercial aircraft companies, there are two. You got Boeing and you have Airbus. Airbus is actually winning now because of the big disaster that Boeing had in 2019 where 274737 Max has crashed and killed a whole lot of people. Hilarious stuff. That company has not been.

[B]

That is a good stand up opener

[A]

doing well, what's the deal with airline crashes?

[D]

And if you're ever explaining that on like a podcast, don't say that that model of Boeing is the Dreamliner. Don't say that because if the listeners of the podcast would correct you.

[B]

Wait, would that happen to you?

[D]

No, I did make that mistake last time we talked about this.

[B]

Well, it's a, it's some Boeing. It's not like they're off the hook. It's like you didn't pick the wrong company.

[D]

737 max.

[A]

Yeah, it is in some ways it's actually the company. So what's interest Interesting. Boeing has been not doing so. Airbus is the European consortium that is the competitor, and Boeing used to be the dominant one and is now not, although it's still those two companies basically dominating the larger commercial aircraft space. So Boeing and China, their history is a little strange because the last time, it was like a decade ago, 2017, the last time that China ordered a bunch of planes from Boeing was when that nine year ago meeting. Trump went there and. And can basically, as a. As like a favor, they agreed to buy 300 planes, which, to be clear, is hundred, like tens of billions of dollars. It's a lot, but it's like 300, 300 planes. And then 2019, there was that funny prank that Boeing pulled on all those innocent people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then, so China grounds the planes, all Boeing 737 Maxs, and stops ordering new stuff for four years. Then in 2024, they finally start to order a little bit. And. And then last year, 2025, China's. Because of the trade prank that Trump played on China again was like, we are not.

[B]

They're like two YouTubers doing prank wars. Dude. It's so fun. It's like.

[D]

Yeah. And it's like if hundreds of lives get lost in the mix. Yeah.

[B]

Or billions of people who all have economic, different levels of security. Yeah. It's awesome.

[A]

So one thing Trump hoped to do out of this meeting was convince China to start buying a bunch of Boeing stuff again. Apparently they were expected to get convinced, like 500. They said, we're going to buy 500 in is what the Americans hoped. And instead China is buying 200. Trump said on TV that China would buy 200 in, quote, big aircraft. Boeing said it had reached a, quote, initial commitment for 200 aircraft. And China didn't give any comments. And then Trump said that Beijing might dramatically expand its initial commitments to 750 planes. Although Shocker provided no details, there's no real details about any of this. And Boeing stock dropped 4% on the news. So my question is, why the fuck is Trump pushing this? Why does this matter that much? It's a big deal for Boeing, but Boeing is a private company. This is not like a government thing. And so I was asking myself this, and I found this interesting quote from Trump four months ago. So if you pull this up, Perry. So he's talking about his relationship with our military contractors. Here you go.

[E]

Companies. We have the best weapons in the world, but it takes too long to get them, including allies. When allies want to buy them, they have to wait four years for a plane. Five years for a helicopter. We're not letting that happen anymore. We're telling our defense contractors, you're going to start building faster. You know, guy makes.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

I have a big problem with it.

[A]

I'm the king.

[E]

I have sold more Boeings than any human being on earth. They gave me award salesman of the year. I said, what about salesman of the. In the history of Boeing, I've sold more Boeing planes than any man in history by. By far. Probably over a thousand. Over a thousand planes.

[A]

So the president, who and I should actually just a quick, you know, follow up of America, not of Boeing, has been going around the world, like, selling Boeing planes as these weird diplomatic things. China doesn't. It's not like he's selling them to Chinese companies. He sells them to Chinese, to China, the government, who then distributes it to their private companies. And so it's just very strange of like, why, you know, maybe, you know, more. There's certainly the, like, it's big and it's flashy. You get to say America first. It's, you know, Boeing giant company, creates a lot of jobs. Also, Trump has millions of dollars in Boeing stock that is being actively traded, like, literally right now.

[B]

I watched a good coffee Zillow last night where they. He lined up some Trump tweets with his stock purchase, which just got disclosed. And like, he has a tweet where he's literally saying the ticker of Palantir and how great of a company is right as he bought it and it dipped a little bit. It's like he's trying to. I mean, he really just. But what's funny is the amount he gained from that is he's a billionaire. He is a billionaire now. He's. He's kind of faked in the past. He is a billionaire. He made, I don't know, 350 grand. Like, the fact that he cares enough to tweet to make that is he's really a hustler for every.

[D]

Could be a coincidence.

[B]

On the Boeing thing, though, I can still man it slightly because other presidents have done something similar.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And the idea, I think, is that the two industries, aircraft and autos, are just strategically important because they can be repurposed in times of war. You don't want to let those decline or fail. You know, all the auto companies during World War II were repurposed into tanks and everything, airplanes. So you kind of want them to be thriving. And if Boeing gets big orders, then you have this leading America is one of the leaders. Although Boeing is kind of slipped and allowed. Airbus, I think, in Europe.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And actually the interesting thing here as well, so I'm blanking the name Comac, I think.

[B]

Yeah, the Chinese one.

[A]

Yeah, Comac, Yeah. So Comac is China's competitor. They started 2008 and they only started delivering planes that were in commercial service in 2023. So last year they sold or delivered like to be able to use 16 total planes versus 150014 to 1500 that were done globally. So they're tiny right now. But that was founded by China with the explicit goal to stop the duopoly of Airbus and Boeing. So I wouldn't be surprised as well because China obviously continues to grow if part of the thing here is make sure Boeing gets a big foothold on China and Comac can't like grow into, you know, into that space.

[B]

Yeah, it's tough though, because the, you know, I looked at the chart, I wish I had it in front of me. I'm sorry, I don't. But it's basically Boeing sales to China by year. So before any of this Trump stuff, it's like 800 planes a year, like tons. Then the first Trump meeting happens and I think they got a deal for you said 700, 500, 300. 300. So it was like. Because that's when the trade war started and they did, they stopped buying bowling altogether and then it goes down to 300. And that deal isn't even fully because of the crash and also because of COVID So like they just don't even fully finish that deal. Like it says 300 was the headline number, but they didn't even do that. And then ever since then, it's been a trickle down to like 100 or nothing. This deal's back to 200. But we're like, we're like getting these deals that are small fractions of what it was before this trade war started.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So.

[A]

And less than the 500 that they wanted. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's a failure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it goes back to again, like there's just, there's not as much dominance that America has.

[D]

You know, that's what I felt like looking at. This is like you have three very specific industries. Not to say that these aren't wins for people in these areas. Like a, for farmers to be able to sell soybeans to China is very important for them. Right. But it feels like Trump comes into a conversation like this, gets to walk away and be like, guys, we have this, we made this amazing huge Deal for Boeing planes. It's very showboaty as see, we have this complex trade relationship that's like very one sided and I'm getting wins for us.

[B]

Right.

[D]

But in the grander context of the trade deficit that he talks about all the time and also the giant piece of leverage they have over us through that trade relationship, it, it feels more like showmanship of like, look how I fight for you guys when it doesn't really have like a relationship.

[B]

I think, I think that's the, that was the kind of the takeaway now that this was a very contentious meeting. Honestly, I was generally decently impressed with how both sides said the right diplomatic things. And like, even G could have been more like, if he wanted to, he could have like humiliated Trump on this day or been more like, you know, but he didn't. They were like, there was a genuine attempt to connect at least. But if you look at you pull this up real quick, just like the cards Trump has, he feels like he has played his cards in all the previous meetings and is kind of running out like the tariffs got struck.

[A]

Sorry, go back to that image.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What game are they playing?

[B]

This is poker with no middle.

[A]

Okay. I want to.

[D]

Poker with no middle. Trump has two cards, but she has, she has five.

[B]

That's a tough.

[A]

And there's a huge.

[D]

Remember, what you don't know about this is if you win with 2, 7 at most casinos, they pay you out a little bonus.

[B]

Bonus. So he's going all.

[D]

It's like he's. He's playing for the.

[A]

Okay. So in this game though, do we know that a two and a seven hand is bad?

[B]

We do.

[A]

We do know that it is. Wow.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

It's always bad. And since we had this one, I think the idea is that he's used tariffs. He used them as much as he possibly could. They got struck down and also trying to kind of punch back with the rare earth thing. And now that he can't do that again, you know, we can't cut off. We've cut off high tech, which is the last thing we have, which is chips. We can't really cut off planes or soybean or be like, what, what else are we going to. What's the lever? Not. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think, I think China doesn't want to escalate and have another trade war. It's not. They had to be fair. Really bad numbers just come out for retail sales, industrial growth. Like they're in a bit of a slump. Yeah.

[A]

League of Legends.

[B]

Okay. It's made in.

[A]

We stop sending it to them.

[B]

Tencent owns it.

[D]

Tencent does own it.

[B]

We own Riot Games is in America.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So you put up like a sheet.

[D]

It's actually Tencent does own, I think 50. What is it? 50%?

[B]

50% of riot majority for sure.

[D]

And I think the US government owns the other 50. So there's something. There's something at play there.

[B]

They must. They must. We've got to feel CIA psyop to ruin minds. I do think the CIA is involved in League of Legends and the Chinese government and they're both trying to ruin our youth.

[D]

And it's working. And that's a fact.

[B]

It's working.

[D]

It's work. It's ruining our youth in slime.

[A]

Anthony Bruno Most popular video games in China Honor of Kings Shit, that's not ours. PUBG Mobile. That's not ours. That's by Tencent. Genshin Impact. Do we own that?

[B]

No.

[A]

Dungeon and Fighter Origins League of Legends Dota 2 Cross Flashback a few years

[B]

we had Avengers Endgame, which is really popular in China. If we could cut off.

[D]

We go back in time.

[B]

What if we cut off the end of the MCU so never saw how it ends? Oh, that would have been a bargaining chip.

[D]

And then we could have said we'll give you the end.

[B]

Yeah, we'll give you the end of

[A]

the Avengers for soybeans.

[D]

If you buy some more Boeing, buy

[B]

some more Boeing blades or some soybeans.

[A]

Each Boeing that you buy will be filled with DVD copies of Avengers Endgame

[B]

so you can distribute it to the popular.

[D]

So yeah, I don't know.

[B]

That's the thing. But I think the main topic, at least on China's side, 100%. The main thing I want to talk about the most was Taiwan. I think you looked into a little bit between drinks.

[D]

Yeah, I mean she's. She's spokesman.

[A]

I mean I had time at it with binoculars.

[D]

I worked hard. I worked hard during the day.

[B]

Okay. And you were kind of a work hard, play hard kind of guy.

[D]

And I played hard in the evening.

[B]

I appreciate that.

[D]

Me and the politburo, a couple of them. I won't brag and say it was all but Xi's spokesman put out during the meetings going on the Taiwan question is the most important issue in China US relations. If it is handled properly, the bilateral relationship will enjoy overall stability. Otherwise the two countries will have clashes and even conflicts, putting the entire relationship in great jeopardy. And this is by the US's side, like own account. This is the number one issue in, in all previous meetings with China, Taiwan as a, as an issue on the whole is always the thing that comes up the most, usually the thing that's talked about the most. And I wanted to pull up. There's a long interview with Trump that Fox did in China, and then that one that I mentioned by Rubio where they both kind of answer questions around the topic and they're trying to play this dance of nothing has changed, but maybe we will act and maybe we'll sell them weapons, but also maybe we won't.

[B]

Right?

[D]

And finding a way to say that while saying nothing at all. Every country in the world has their

[B]

own little song and dance on Taiwan of finding a way to say it in the right way.

[D]

And I sent you a YouTube link. It just comes in at the correct timestamp. So I wanna watch a minute of this interview.

[E]

Which should the people of Taiwan feel more or less secure after your meetings with President Xi? Neutral. Neutral. Has the policy changed at all? No, nothing's changed.

[B]

US Policy?

[E]

No, nothing's changed. I will say this. I'm not looking to have somebody go independent and, you know, we're supposed to travel 9,500 miles to fight a war. I'm not looking for that. I want them to cool down. I want China to cool down. But you're waiting on approving billions of dollars of weapons for Taiwan. Is that moving forward? Well, I haven't approved it yet. We're going to see what happens.

[B]

What are you looking for?

[E]

I may do it, I may not do it. Yeah. What's your, your hinge point? Well, I'm not going to say that, but I may do it. I may not do it. But we're not looking to have wars. And we're. If you kept it the way it is, I think China is going to be okay with that. But we're not looking to have somebody say, let's go independent because the United States is backing us, you know, so

[B]

President Xi probably liked that you haven't approved the weapons to Taiwan.

[E]

I would say like is maybe too strong a word because he thinks I could do it with just the signing of my signature. Unlike Biden, who couldn't sign his.

[D]

That's all I wanted to get to. It is really funny because through this whole interview, it's amazing. We do go to the Biden El Clasico so much in this interview.

[B]

It does.

[D]

Biden couldn't do it. I did it.

[B]

Couldn't sign it.

[D]

He couldn't have signed it. But I think both him and Rubio are hammering the idea that, like, nothing has changed. Post this conversation. Like, nothing about the relationship between us and China and Taiwan has. Has changed. But if you, as you can imagine,

[B]

push back on that. Can I jump in? Or like, not back on you, but on, on them.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I just want to say because, like, I think from Rubio's point of view, nothing has changed. I think Rubio was really good at this. In this event of maintaining message discipline, he said that China will always try to push you or get concessions. And you always say, our stance is unchanged. And that, that way you have. You're not even answering. You're not giving a thing. But Trump can't do that. And so even in that interview right there, yes. Certain things he said, like, we don't want to go 3,000 miles to fight a war. Like, he's saying things like, it's closer to them. We're not going to. And what it is doing is Taiwan, who believes America is their ally and has some backing, is now scared, and they're thinking we might get. They might get the Ukraine treatment, where you're pretend to be an ally for a long time, then when times are tough, you don't get out. And also that even the idea that Trump would renege on an already signed weapons deal because of what happened in this meeting is opening the door to China being way more like seeing an opportunity of Trump that they can. Because back to cards. Turns out this is kind of the last huge card that Trump has that China wants something, which is that if Trump backs off visibly from Taiwan, stop selling them weapons, that's very much in China's interest. They very much want that. And they're willing to trade stuff for that.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And Trump loves a deal, loves a trade. There's.

[D]

Yeah, there's a couple other things in, in this that. Because the, the, in the vein of what you're saying, the president of Taiwan, Ly Ching to. I think he saw this.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And, you know, sees what Trump says during and after the meetings and is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, hold up. You guys, you guys already agreed to this. This is a security commitment based on laws that we both share. And Taiwan will not be sacrificed or traded and will not give up its free way of life under. Under pressure, insisting that, like, this, this agreement has to go through. And he admitted, like, a quote, said they were very concerned about the contents of the meeting that were. That was had, while also saying that Taiwan's not going to do anything to, like, provoke or start a conflict. Seemingly in reply to the idea that Trump is saying like, nobody go and say anything about independence now.

[B]

Right, Right.

[D]

They're not trying to start anything. And then I think this also comes in cuz a huge chunk of this interview, Trump goes back and starts complaining that Taiwan hasn't made hard enough of a commitment to chip development in the United States. And basically saying like a huge part of what they need to do better for everybody. You need to start developing chips in the US and not in just your country. And it was a mistake of previous presidents to allow Taiwan to steal chip development technology and have it be so centered in their country. And like, and it's part of the reason why intel has fallen so far behind. This is, you know, I think it's

[B]

funny because if you're Taiwanese and you hear that the obvious Trump is not that subtle. The obvious implication is get this chip stuff out of Taiwan so that we can sacrifice this pawn.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

Once that tech is out, I have no reason to care. And so like, I don't know, it's very frustrating as someone who values America, like the way he's treated all of our allies, Europe, and it's very frustrating to me, but Taiwan is one of them.

[D]

And it's like, that's why I was thinking it was like, if you're listening to this, you have to be so mad because the guy is basically demanding that you give up the last significant piece of leverage you really have over keeping the protection as is. And it's already so ambiguous to begin with.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, I mean, this was a strategic plan from Taiwan. I was reading something recently about the. Because the people who still run the chip industry are like in their 70s now. They're pretty old. And they've like, in their generation, they went from way, way, way behind intel, nothing. And they poured government money and time and influence into this to make that their linchpin. This is the golden jewel of Taiwan. We can make the best chips in the world. And now they're kind of reaping the rewards. Taiwan GDP growth is just broke. Like a record or something, like literally, because all of the money and all the tech companies in the world is flowing in to Taiwan right now because of the AI boom. They are one of the biggest beneficiaries. And yeah, I don't know, I don't know what it was, but it was for a developed economy. It was one of the biggest GDP prints in a long time to 13%. Oh my God, 13% is crazy. You know, like China does five. America's like two, right now, it's like 13% for a big developed economy.

[D]

It's a big year for them. You know, like, they. They've got that. Alex Honnold climbed Taipei 101 and Mark Rober commentated it. Not sure why that.

[B]

That's the big three. So, like, they're. They are riding high. But this Trump thing might have got

[A]

one stole Mark Rober from us. We want.

[B]

That is a red line.

[A]

We want to create Mark Rober here in America.

[D]

If the next glitter bomb video is in Taipei, I'll take a bomb and

[B]

I won't sell them arms

[D]

anyway.

[B]

I mean, those were like, kind of the main things. I don't know if you guys have any minor stories. I thought, I thought. I will say, like, overall, it could have gone way worse. It could have been way more contentious. Last thing I'll say, there's a book called Thucydides Trap that I really like by Graham Allison, and it's about how it looked at all the times in history when there was a established dominant power and then a rising power based off Athens and Sparta. And like, I don't know the percentage, but, like 91% of the time, over 60 examples, there was a conflict, there was a fight, and the only times that what didn't was like, America and uk and there's a couple examples. And Xi Jinping specifically referenced this book in conversation. He specifically said it to Trump and we have to avoid the cities trap. I thought that was interesting. I don't think Trump is ready. I'm not sure it's part of his. But I think the idea that, like, hey, a conflict between America and China that gets hot would be so bad for everybody. Let's keep this in mind and let's avoid it. And this meeting seemed generally in that direction, so it's not a horrible idea. I think it's. I think Trump is kind of bumbling.

[A]

Aiden got drinks with Thucydides. I think.

[B]

I think you were a big part of.

[D]

I kept things cool this year. You heard Trump. He said he wants China to stay cool, Taiwan to stay cool.

[B]

Yeah, you're chill.

[D]

I came in together.

[A]

Needing to wear sunglasses does not imply you kept it together.

[D]

I was keeping it cool. Doug and I wanted to end this because we talked. You brought this point up a while ago. The common formula of the headline, china has done this thing, but at what cost? Oh, yeah, at what cost? And I thought it was funny as I was going through stuff to read about the summit. There's a Wall Street Journal article that is literally titled Xi Jinping is now the world leader. He wanted to be. But it has come at a cost.

[B]

Did they say what the cost is?

[D]

Nope, I haven't opened it. I just literally took the headline and I'll fully admit that that's the kind of hard hitting. Yeah, that's the hard. I didn't read that one. I didn't read that one.

[A]

When you're 15 between long islands.

[D]

I have to cop to when I didn't read the article, I saw the headline and I just thought it was funny.

[B]

No, it is funny and that is it. It's funny because they should at least find a synonym. They always do the same headline. But there's a challenge, you know, just mix it up. It's always a challenge.

[D]

It's like, yeah, I'm sure there are.

[A]

Cause there's always some to be a Marvel villain which is like, you know, mostly one sided. But there's one interesting thing that makes them slightly sympathetic. Like they always want that.

[B]

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[C]

I'm Mitch, first, two time indigestible champion, championship MVP and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset and unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an elite athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast. Each episode, I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week on the show, comedian and bestselling author Chelsea Handler gifts her tips on independence and aging gracefully. I would argue that 50, now that I am 50 and I understand life more than I did when I was 30 or 40, is that you get so much more Wisdom. And you get so much more experience that you actually feel like you're beginning again. Check out pretty tough new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

[D]

Talked a little about, about planes. Yeah, but what about the airlines? What have they been up to, you know, and there was a recent thing that came up. It was in April. JetBlue is potentially being sued in a class action lawsuit for predatory pricing practices. So you may remember we talked a while ago to Lena Khan about the threat of companies utilizing private information. We grilled her.

[B]

I mean, we took her to the fire, dude.

[A]

Okay. When we raked Lena Khan over the coals.

[D]

Over the coals. And. And she was. And she didn't even want to be there. She hated that because of how hard. Hit hard. And she cried at the end of that interview.

[B]

A lot of people don't know, but she was surprising.

[D]

Surprising. New York Times, I didn't put that. But she brought up about the potential pricing practices of companies using private data as an example. Say they know like an airline knows that you're going to a funeral and they increase the price of a ticket because they have that information to take advantage.

[B]

This idea. Yeah.

[D]

Incredibly dystopian. So in April, a Guy tweets @JETBlue, a $230 increase on a ticket after one day is crazy. I'm just trying to make it to a funeral. JetBlue on Twitter responds, their customer service rep response and says, clearing your cash and cookies or booking with an incognito, like, might work. Incognito window might work. We're sorry for your loss. Seemingly public acknowledgment that they do indeed participate in this pricing practice, which immediately there is an uproar about like the customer service tweet itself goes a little viral on Twitter through that period of time. I think it actually saw it when this happened. And a few days later, not necessarily the person that made that tweet, but a person files a class action lawsuit that is yet to be approved or cleared by a judge that JetBlue is taking these sort of tactics. And I think if you're, you know, tapped into the idea of this existing, like you may, if you watch that Lina Khan interview, for instance, you're like prepped for this to be a problem. Yeah, but JetBlue has like outright denied that they do this as well as other airlines. And they, JetBlue is just saying guys like the customer service rep, like just didn't know what they're talking about. And we don't collect this type of information. This is just how ticket prices work. Like when other seats get booked, like, ticket prices can change within short periods of time based on availability of the flight. And to be fair, as I looked into this, there is no significant data or, like, pattern available, at least for now, that they actually have done this. Like, there isn't. There's plenty of other, like, standard reasons why fares do go up within that period of time. There's no, like, pattern of this behavior. And the lawsuit hasn't been approved.

[B]

Look, it is fully possible they're not actually doing this specific behavior.

[D]

Yeah, but I'm not saying airlines are good guys.

[B]

It's just that I saw there was like that More Perfect Union video where they were talking about how companies like Instacart specifically said they don't do algorithmic pricing. And so they did an experiment where they actually got hundreds of phones, hundreds of drivers.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And there were different prices on the groceries. And so, like, they're, I mean, they, they, they can lie.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Of course. Until there's like an experiment or, or an idea that, like, they have to really do the calculus. Is this going to be investigated by the government? Are we going to get a fine bigger than what we gain? If they're not going to do that, then the, the smartest move is to lie and then do some form of it. So I don't know. I'm not saying it isn't happening. I am saying that, like, we need to start thinking of a plan if it does happen, where you can fake to be my alive grandma.

[D]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So if I'm going to her funeral, I can, like, send you an email or something or like, publicly buy you a gift on Amazon. So the cookie tracks.

[D]

I'm ready anytime you activate me.

[A]

Yeah, you just keep writing into the description. She's really not that fun to hang out with.

[B]

Yeah. Barely even want to go debating whether

[A]

this is going to be fun at all. Just kind of seeing the price plummet. It's just kind of seeing. It shows $200 and you, like, act. Actually, I think I'm staying home that weekend. The price checks down.

[D]

Yeah, I think I'm fully, I'm fully with the idea that airlines may be doing this or will attempt to do it down the line. It from like, right now, there isn't this specific paper trail of, like, this being true in this moment. This isn't the.

[B]

I just want to say because, like, when I worked in marketing and Nvidia, we would have to do social media ad buys on like Meta on Facebook. And there is a shocking amount you can tell about a person without tracking the things you think they're tracking. Like just, just by, you know, the famous example is like they can often know you're pregnant before without tracking that. You know what I'm saying?

[D]

Wasn't this a thing? This was with. With Target. Right. Target had put together like a package of recommended items about to their customer that they assumed were pregnant from other things they had bought and they didn't even know yet. Yeah, and then they sued Target for that. I think it was something.

[B]

But yeah, I mean, the idea is like just by, just by the information that you already do give, they can, they can correctly and legally say, oh, we don't track this, this and this. But because those things correlate so well with all the data points they have, they can find truths about you.

[D]

So. So yeah, yeah, this isn't one to one, but it did make me think of, you know, how people talk about how their phones listen and record them all the time and like, oh, I was just talking about this type of dog food and then like my phone fed me an ad for it like an hour later. And the, the reality of that is, is mostly that, no, your phone doesn't listen.

[E]

Yeah, you're right.

[B]

They don't do that.

[D]

They don't really do that. There's an asterisk on that. But what they do do is collect so much of your browsing data that they can predict the type of ad to that degree of certainty anyway without listening to it.

[B]

You're not a unique snowflake. There are people who have 98% of the same details as you and they saw the same Instagram posts or heard the same news story or whatever that made them search the same thing. And so it's like they know what you're going to do almost based on the people just like you. There's so people doing the same thing. So yeah, I think that's what most of like the oh, it's listening to me is from is some guy saw the same.

[A]

That's why whenever I'm like driving on the freeway, sometimes I'll just like screech off to the side just to throw them off. Like, I want to be unpredictable and unknowable.

[B]

The handler for Doug at Meta is like, fuck, where'd he go?

[A]

He's breaking containment.

[D]

I wanted to test. This is not, you know, this is not an infallible experiment by any means.

[A]

I buy a thousand colanders Every weekend. I want Instagram to have no fucking idea what I'm up to.

[B]

It's fucking up everyone else's recommendations because they also buy like a mug and it's like, you want a calendar, right?

[A]

This is like when I sold my best selling book, Doug. A Doug Doug Story. And then people kept buying it. We tried to, we tried to buy it alongside Lube so it would show up as recommended on Amazon. And then one guy bought it alongside House of Leaves, so it's like recommended alongside House of Leaves all the time.

[D]

The, the, the last thing I wanted to try because I'm supposed to fly JetBlue later this year.

[A]

I'm like, for a funeral.

[B]

For, for, For a funeral.

[D]

For a wedding.

[B]

You're going for a funeral. You have to be there for that wedding.

[D]

For a wedding. JetBlue that I have to go to. If I don't go to this wedding, my girlfriend will be. Be very upset with me.

[A]

JetBlue, unless it's your.

[D]

Don't make it expensive. So I say I can't go JetBlue.

[B]

Rubbing his hands, upping the, Hitting the up button on the price.

[D]

No, I'm just kidding. It should be a, it should be a fun airline story. Oh. Oh, no. I just wanted to say I tried. I tried like three different, Three different browsers, three different devices, like, on. And am I logged into Google? Am I not logged into Google checking the same prices of two sets of JetBlue flights I have later in the year to see if, like, maybe they're fucking me? It's all the same price across everything.

[A]

This is just like a social media intern who just doesn't understand how the browser work, which kicked off this huge class action.

[D]

I don't think it was that. I think it could, like. Or was it one, this could be, this could be the actual revelation of JetBlue doing this. We don't know yet. Right. It could be that. Two, it could be an employee that had heard about this type of pricing tactic thinks they're too low on the chain to actually know, but thinks JetBlue does this and recommends to that person that they do this in order to fix the problem, or they're just throwing it out there because they don't know how any of this works. There's a bunch of different possibilities, but yeah, you got another airline story.

[B]

I got a different airline story. And this one's a little bit fun. All right. Although I guess maybe not. We'll see. You know how people have been finding different quirky, fun ways to insider Trade using the new Polymarket and Kalshi prediction markets. They've become such a hot topic. Well, a guy did one that was so crazy that I have to give him props, even though I don't like that trend. There is a bet every single day on what the temperature will be in, like, France, for example, in different countries. And this guy found out that the way that is measured is by a sensor at the airport. And so he. In this video, dude, you can pull this up. Took a hairdryer, heated up the sensor and then took the outside long shot. Bet that it would be really hot that day, even though it wouldn't. And made £34,000 or €34,000.

[A]

Is that illegal? Are there laws that say you can't go heat up the temperature sensor? I don't know this point of human history. Why would you go use a hairdryer on the temperature sensor? Why would they preactively?

[B]

There's no rule against it.

[D]

You know, when I was. I was riding the Amtrak for the first time in a long time, and they have these really long extended announcements about what you can and cannot do in the cars. And they get really specific. So you start to wonder. It's like, oh, people just did that at some point and no. And now in the future, there's gonna be a new sign up on the fence that says no blowing hair dryers or other items into to affect temperature readings.

[B]

I mean, their solution to this problem, by the way, was just to move it to a different airport. So I'm quite sure someone's gonna try it again.

[D]

Okay, I haven't, I haven't thought about this because the. The real version of me, the like 90% of version of me is like, this is a scourge on our society. This needs to be policed at the very least. Like, you can't. You cannot allow these things. But then the other 10% of me is like, dude, if you're the fucking moron betting on this shit, just I fucking applause to that guy for just. For just doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, yeah, I think about that for a lot of things. There's so many things where I used to be like, guys, we have to stop this. And now I'm like, bro, if you're falling for this still, if you're still by like, if you're in 2026 still being like, this NFT is a good idea. Yeah.

[D]

Which is that, that mentality, that mentality, I can't save you for regulation is just untenable. Like, you Can't. You can't have that mentality and have like a society. Yeah, but I do. Part of me still does feel that way. Do you?

[B]

Because it feels like how, you know, if you regulate, if you're stupid enough to still fall for some of these things. What? You can't regulate it enough. There's not enough rules that'll save you. The insider trading is so prevalent on these platforms that big stock trading firms like Jane street and all these, you know, the big hedge funds are now scraping polymarket to find consistent winners and then front running their bets on much bigger. Like, because they're making pennies compared to what you can make on the stock market if you knew some truths about the Iran war or missile.

[A]

So they're. They're analyzing polymarket to find people who clearly have insider knowledge.

[B]

And then they're going, what's the bigger bet we can make off this?

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Oh, that's so awful and fascinating.

[B]

I know. It's really fascinating. It's. It's a wild place, The. The world we live in. Speaking of which, a lot of this wildness happened after Covid, and that was a really fun time for us as humans.

[A]

Keep going. Yeah.

[B]

And so now I'm hoping. I've always been hoping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When's the next pandemic coming around?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you've been following up.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

God.

[A]

All right. So, yeah, 2020. There's this. This pretty funny prank on the world. And so you might have heard.

[B]

You had that bat, right? You ate that bat or that pangolin?

[D]

Yeah, pangolin.

[B]

You were on your other China trip.

[D]

You were on my other China trip.

[B]

You were smoking a little weed.

[A]

You ate it in a lab, if I remember.

[D]

In a lab? No, a lot of people think it was in a lab, but I just went to the market by the penguin.

[B]

You just bought a penguin?

[D]

I just bought a pangolin. And then I. I cooked him. I cooked it. But not.

[A]

You didn't bring.

[D]

I've spent a lot of time in China the last decade.

[A]

Actually.

[D]

A lot of people don't know that

[B]

you're the Forrest Gump of China, bro. Has happened around.

[D]

And then I flew straight to Italy

[B]

and then Tom Hanks's house, I think

[D]

you get up with Tom Hanks and

[B]

it kicked everything off.

[A]

All right, now, fingers crossed, because this one, this new, fun version of a new virus came from South America. Tell me you have not gone there recently.

[D]

No, just China.

[A]

You were talking about your Venezuelan friends recently. Haven't been visiting.

[D]

No, it's phone calls.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[D]

Okay, phone calls.

[A]

All right, so hantavirus, you might have heard of it, this is a, I guess, like very small outbreak that is happening of a rare disease. And I think it's kind of bringing up some of the same types of fears about pandemic stuff because we're all fresh off of a horrific pandemic. So this is a disease that comes from rodents, does not normally affect humans, but some rare strains can. Basically, it's like you get the flu symptoms that are bad, and then it can affect your lungs or kidneys and kill you. It can be pretty rough. There's no treatment, vaccine. The kind of scary part is it's one to six weeks incubation period, meaning by the time you get it versus showing symptoms, it's one to six weeks, which is a long time. Which means you might have it and be contagious without knowing it. But we don't know how it spreads. So you might, if you've heard about this before this point, it's because this outbreak happened on a cruise ship like very recently.

[B]

Northern lion super cruise.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

This is over the past like two canceled it like two ish weeks, couple of weeks. And it spread on this cruise ship. But we don't know how because normally these things spread by basically rat or rodent droppings. So if you're like, if you're like snorting lines of rat urine, like that could get you hantavirus, you're probably not going to get it if you aren't like directly exposed to like rodent droppings and you're inhaling them in small spaces. So this is like the one strain, it's called the Andes strain, that can spread between people of hantaviruses. And so this, we've known about this for a while. This isn't like out of nowhere this particular thing that is spreading on this cruise ship. So but it's, it's infrequent enough and it's small enough and it hasn't really been a big deal before that. We don't know how it's transmitted.

[B]

Rap droppings are cool now. So everyone's been like, oh, people have

[A]

been, that's like what kids are doing.

[B]

If you go the tik toks on it, bro.

[A]

Like I took nyquil, you know, in high school to try to get, to try to hallucinate kids. Now they're doing rat.

[B]

They're calling it Chuck E. Cheesing, bro. They go, you go to the, you

[D]

go to the club, you get a

[B]

little bag of drops, you have yourself a night, bro. You were doing it with Jensen Wong in China, bro. Don't act like you're above it.

[D]

Yeah, but it was pure. It was pure.

[A]

It was the good stuff.

[D]

It was pure wheat. You think Jensen's getting bad?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he's doing bad.

[A]

Every story we've talked about today, you were actually involved with any reason?

[D]

It's so funny. If we interview Jensen Huang like a year from now. We cut to this clip.

[A]

Are the allegations through New York Times. They grilled him about his rat dropping usage.

[D]

No Jensen to like hundreds of thousands of people. Listen, it's crazy,

[A]

Perry, if you pull this up. Here's a little article from or image, excuse me, from Bloomberg showing the map. So basically this leaves from South America. The idea is probably a couple people got onto this cruise ship which only had 150 people. It's small, but got onto this ship. They probably spread it to some degree. It spread. So while this all might sound scary, you might heard of hantavirus and all this stuff. It's not like a huge deal, to be honest. So here's. Here's what we do know. Three people have died in total. It's kind of bad if you get it. There's been 13 total cases. And at this point the cruise ship is like done. People have disseminated, but they're under the under watch basically because it's in a couple different countries now. But people are quarantining and whatnot. World Health Organization and CDC says the risk is super low. European health officials are saying this isn't showing like it's going to mutate or anything. It's not. Which is what would make it more contagious. Right. That's the thing with COVID It keeps mutating to become a new thing, thing that spreads. But that does not appear to be happening here. According to the European cdc, they've already sequenced the genome. I think really fortunately the result of this, you might have heard about this and been a little freaked out like I was until this morning. It's like basically seems fine. The two things to be concerned about. One is just there is a long incubation period. So there's a world where this suddenly starts spreading, but it seems to just not be nearly as scary.

[D]

Is there not a confirmation of like to what amount of that incubation period you're contagious at all?

[A]

We don't even know how it transmits. We know very little about it. So that is the part that you might be afraid of, but of the information that is now rapidly developing like, the CDC said this was an emergency or took emergency actions immediately, but they're saying it's contained. They're saying it's fine. And if you really need comfort, take a look at this polymarket poll of which. Hantavirus pandemic in 2026. Only 6% chance. So I really see no concern at all. I think the main story here. Oh, we're safe, honestly, is that people are freaked out because of COVID and distrust of government. So that even though the CDC and the WHO are both like, this is good, we've got it under control, we're just gonna keep it careful. Like, we don't have a CDC director permanent one anymore, and we haven't for a long time, people generally are distrusting the government. So I think this is less of a real serious concern for a pandemic right now. All the signs point to this will be contained. Even though it sounded kind of sc. I think it just tough because, like, last.

[B]

I mean, I agree with you. From what I saw, it doesn't seem to be the COVID level, but people said this shit. Like, I remember all the shit. I remember Elon Musk saying, no new cases by April. I remember seeing all this stuff. Downplaying it or it's contained to overseas. There's only a few cases in America. It just became bigger. And every step of the way, people were downplaying until it be. Until Tom Hanks got it. And then it was like this big deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Calling a homie. I've got a friend.

[B]

You got a friend?

[D]

Doctor, studies infectious disease.

[B]

He plays melee, though.

[D]

Special. No?

[B]

Oh, I think I had a melee.

[D]

No, no, no, no. He's just a doctor.

[B]

So I talked to.

[A]

For vaccines. Right, you connected me with him for vaccines? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we talked.

[D]

Same guy.

[A]

Yeah, about vaccines.

[D]

And he. He. We had an interesting conversation, not about hantavirus, but about something similar a long time ago where he was talking about this. There's a really high percentage chance that if you do get it, you die. And the question in medicine of how effective is it actually for a virus to have a really high percentage chance of killing you? Because if the virus kills like 40, 50% of the people it infects, it lowers the chances of it spreading, or that's the argument is that it's not actually good for the viruses, like life in the long run.

[A]

I mean, viruses, I mean, maybe I'm speaking out of my butthole here, but they don't want to kill the host at all because then they die. Right. And the reason you have viruses killing us in the first place is because they come from animals.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

They're not supposed to be in our life.

[D]

Some of them do it for the greatest joy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

But I haven't.

[A]

And they're depressed. They've been on social media.

[D]

I haven't had a conversation about how

[A]

hot the other viruses are.

[B]

Pathogens are.

[D]

Wait, wait.

[B]

Viruses are the bottom of the social standing and like, the. And they want to move up in the world, and killing is how they do that.

[D]

I think knowledge on this topic is something that I maybe have been. This is the least to contribute. I. I think I want to. I. I actually want to call. I call him about this because I haven't had a chance to speak with him about it and get. Get his.

[B]

I wish you a costume episode where we dress up as doctors. We just.

[A]

We give. We give our takes.

[B]

Yeah, we give our takes on medicine.

[D]

Well, last week's episode was pretty scientific, so I think we got. We have a process for long.

[A]

Yeah, look, you're right. Like, this. This could get bigger. It is a thing that is still technically scary right now, and I think primarily because we're all, like, a little scarred from this recent thing. But public health officials, including the CDC of Europe and of America are both saying we are monitoring this closely, but this does not appear to have the same kind of, like, particularly scary properties. So it is obviously possible. But I think the main question here is, like, in the. In that horrible nightmare scenario where it happens, would people go back to playing among us or swap to peak? Which is the better game?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, if this happens. If you tell me that. Yeah, you're seeing the cases pick up. I'm investing in friend slop games. I'm putting so much money, I'm taking my entire net worth and I'm dumping it on that because.

[D]

Get to work. Two is coming out real quick.

[A]

Yeah. Shovel.

[B]

Wear that shit out there. Reskin it.

[D]

Okay. This is more an open question because I literally don't remember. I get your. Your brief pushback of, like, people were downplaying the seriousness of COVID Yeah. But I don't feel like. Am I crazy? I don't feel like institution, like health institutions downplayed it, but, like, figures and people who had, like, more vested interests or obvious lack of knowledge. But it was like, maybe I'm. This is years ago. I literally do not remember. I'm trying to.

[B]

So much weed. No, I don't. I'm not sure I remember, like, I remember news, basically. I remember news telling me that it was contained and not a big deal, but I'm not sure if they were quoting.

[A]

Remember, like, our best source of news were podcasts, and they would just, like, have random doctors on who'd be like, this is what we're seeing here. It'd be invalidated in, like, three days.

[D]

Yeah, it was crazy.

[A]

This thing's been going on for, like, a month and a half, by the way. So this isn't like the last. It's becoming a panic. It's basically a thing you might have heard about. Seemingly, right now, everybody's in quarantine, and we're, you know, knock on wood.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

I feel like Grock will tell me what.

[D]

That's a good point. Wait, what? What else?

[B]

Ebola outbreak, too. Geez Louise. Oh, yeah.

[D]

I was thinking about. I think I was thinking about getting Ebola. Well, trying it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, you know, I'm a world traveler.

[B]

You're a traveler, and you've always been jealous of those that had Ebola because it was like, something you never got to do.

[A]

Do.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm like, often. You often said that was. Who wrote that? That story about the. The fig tree. Plat. Right.

[B]

What?

[D]

Nobody knows what you're having a str. Is it Olivia?

[B]

Sylvia Plath.

[D]

Sylvia. Sylvia.

[B]

I don't know fig.

[D]

Sylvia Plath.

[B]

My bad.

[D]

It's Sylvia Plath. I don't know. Why is Sylvia Plath Platt. The story of the big. The story of the fig tree where you look at, like, it's. It's this tree, and it has all your lives at the end of end. Every fig is a different version of your life. And the one with Ebola, it's like, I. I want to experience that, too.

[B]

Oh, Sylvia Plat.

[D]

Let's keep all that in.

[B]

Stick your head in an oven or something.

[D]

Shout out to Sylvia, what you got.

[A]

Yeah,

[D]

what do you got? What do you got going on in there?

[B]

I want to stew in this for a bit. I really love thoughts on poets.

[D]

I want out.

[B]

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[C]

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[D]

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[B]

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[D]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

And he said, absolutely. But I was definitely the driving force,

[D]

I think, in the conviction about Angel City.

[C]

Check out Pretty Tough new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

[B]

I actually have a story that

[A]

I

[B]

think Mr. AI might find interesting. Let's pull this up. I thought this was.

[A]

I don't know if you heard, there's a little thump at the bottom of the table just now.

[B]

Okay, I want to pull this up. This is a social experiment that I found to be quite funny and kind of, I don't know, a twisted mirror up to society. Ok.

[A]

The joker's dark and twisted mind.

[D]

People want to watch the world burn.

[B]

Yeah. This guy had an idea. What if I take an actual Monet painting that is not well known and tell everyone it's AI how will they react? And so we uploaded this. I generated an image in the style of a Monet painting using AI Please describe in as much detail as possible what makes this inferior to a real Monet painting. That is a. That is a catnip prompt for people who are really, really anti AI oh,

[A]

he marks it as made with AI on Twitter. Wow.

[B]

Marked it as made with AI Anyway, this is real and the rage bait was. Was well done. So I have some examples here. And again, knowing it's a real Monet, reading some of these. It's Monet. Ish. Yes. And certainly pretty. But at the risk of sounding pretentious, it would, imo, not hold up next to the real thing. The first time I saw Monet's paintings up close, it was astonishing. The brush strokes here aren't as precise. A lot of just all nagging Monet. Yeah, there's a certain harshness no soft blending of colors. It's all borked nonsense with no sense of place, no frame, just colors. There's no focal point. Uh, you know, just. It's garbage. Brushstrokes don't feel Monet, you know, people going on and on and on. I will say there are some real fucking art chads out there who actually know their shit. And they were like, wait a minute, this. This is a real. I mean, this is. This detail from an actual late Monet. You can tell the brushstrokes are super similar. And since the, you know, there's a couple people that had, like, I'm still getting up, let's see. Disagree with people saying it lacks depth. There's a clear plane with the lily pads paint extra looks believable as a physical object. It's not a top tier Monet, but it's a very credible Monet, which is probably true. There's some people that have the knowledge to figure it out. But I think this just goes back to the idea that, you know, I think we all have said many of the problems with generative AI but the one argument always annoyed me is the one about, like, the hands or, you know, the. There's too many teeth. All the ideas are like, of course they're going to fix that in two seconds. And I think this puts a lens up to that of people just trying to downplay something basically fictionally just making up things of why it's so shit. Once they know it's a. It's more of a. A feeling than it is, like, the actual measurable impact of it.

[A]

I mean, we're pretty much there, right, where you can't tell the difference. I mean, this is. This is another indication of that. But, like, in a weird reverse thing, like, obviously plenty of photos and videos and what's not. You can still tell, but, man, it's so fucking hard. Like, it's insane.

[B]

I heard an AI this is gonna sound crazy. I heard an AI Drake song and I also listened to all three of his new Drake albums and the AI song was probably better.

[D]

You listen to all three?

[B]

Yeah, it was on stream. We were kind of roasting it.

[D]

All three.

[B]

We were kind of roasting, roasting it. And I. I was like, damn, this album's kind of boring. And then I. I heard a song. I didn't know it was a tired. I was like, that was because I get into another beat. So I don't know. It's a weird time. I do think once, you know, it's AI I. I have A similar feeling to some of these people where once I know I just lose interest. It's not as interesting or fun to enjoy.

[D]

Yeah, but.

[B]

But the idea that you can measurably see the difference seems to be declining day by day. I mean. Yeah, I don't know.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, this is more a. I think this is a classic exercise and just tricking people who have conviction about things they hate but don't actually know anything. Do you know what I mean? This is like, when you can do this, where you're like, doesn't it suck that Biden did this? And then the person's like, yeah, fucking hate Biden. And then you're like, yeah, Trump did that. Gotcha. Like, it's. It's like an exercise in it. An exercise in, like, owning people. That I think is like, of course this was gonna happen. Did you need to do it? That's how. That's a little bit of how I feel about it, is. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I guess I would like people to have. Because if you stick to this line of argument, you're gonna get more frustrated and angry as the quality gets better. But if you have a more principal war, you're like, hey, I don't like generative AI on its purpose, on a service, at least then you can.

[D]

You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I think.

[D]

I don't think this exercise he's doing doesn't really, like. I don't think this shifts the needle on people having more principled arguments about this. I think this is for him to feel good, maybe, and for us to laugh. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, I agree. This feels like a funny roast. But then actually here, some good resources I found that I think are about, if you want to understand, maybe some of the downsides of AI art beyond just, oh, it looks bad, or it's going to take jobs. Brandon Sanderson, who writes the Cosmere series books, he has a video called if you just search Brandon Sanderson, AI Art Bad, it'll probably come up. It was like, a couple months ago. And basically his argument is the creative process requires you to go through things, and it is not about the destination. And if you just kind of get to the destination, then you're ultimately not really creating anything at all. And then as well as.

[D]

That's why I think that what you're saying, the principled outlook of, oh, I'm not interested in this AI piece of art, not because it doesn't have some facet of being interesting, but because it wasn't made by a human. Which kind of just excludes what the point of art is 100%. Yeah.

[B]

I think if more people are on that line of thought, there's more progress being made than everyone kind of coping every time a new one comes out.

[D]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[B]

I find that to be like, if

[A]

you listening, you want to feel like you have more of a meaty argument for why you don't want air to exist, even if it ends up being as good as Monet or whatever the standard ends up being. We are Art by Brandon Sanderson is a keynote he gave recently. And then a video I really liked was Suno AI Music and the Bad Future by Adam Neely. Very long video about AI music. Music. Whereas Brandon Sanderson's is more about art broadly. But I think both of them talk a lot about how I think with. With generative art and music, there's much more of a sense of it, like harming the actual creative process rather than being a tool to assist your creative process. Like it's fundamentally ruining what you are doing as a creative person. Which I think is different from a lot of other fields where, like, if it speeds up doctors discovering the medicine, I think that feels different than the argument around AI and creativity where there isn't an answer. And the point is for you to express yourself and that is being lost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think there's great arguments against that.

[B]

Humans enjoy the process in those situations.

[A]

Well, I wouldn't say that. I mean. Well, okay.

[B]

Of making music.

[A]

Let me rephrase that. Yes and no. Making shit is hard, as, you know. And I think it's, you know, everybody who's made stuff realizes, like, oh, a lot of this is brutal and frustrating and hard and difficult. And that's. That's why I think it's so appealing to have a tool like this that could be like, I'm struggling with the baseline of my music. I'm just going to have it write all that and the lyrics and whatever, or I'm going to have it write the outline of my book or do the background imagery for my game or whatever it is. So I think it's. I think the temptation to lose those, like those pieces of frustration is what is. Where it's really hard.

[B]

It's a tough one. It's a balancing act. For example, the one you just said about background in game, where it. You do a pattern and it just fills in all the rest. So you can. Yeah, no, it's like, it's tough. Cause that could help an indie Game studio have a game look at a higher quality than it was able to do before. There's things you could do. But, you know, the example I just felt was there was a news story about the number one song on iTunes being from an AI generated artist. And I listened to it and I hated it. I hated it. I just hated it. I thought it was really, really bad. And it made me upset and. But I like that AI Drake song. So it's not like it's about the thing.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it just made me realize that, like, there's nothing stopping, you know, I think what I hated more than that was that they made a ton of money off it. I was like, I didn't care when it wasn't someone making money. But I was like, this guy's. There's now human artists lower on this list. I think it made me. It made me more viscerally upset.

[D]

Do you think AI Drake wins the beef?

[B]

It could do much worse.

[A]

You did a follow up, AI Drake versus AI Kendrick beef. You see,

[B]

they could keep the beef going forever if they just keep generating

[D]

AI songs because AI Drake isn't a pedophile. So that's true. That goes a long way.

[A]

Well, depends what your prompt is.

[B]

Okay, you have another story.

[A]

Yeah, the trial of the century.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Update.

[A]

Elon lost. Many are calling it the trial of the century, especially us, because mostly us on the show. Actually, I don't think anybody's calling it trial of the century.

[D]

A lot of notable media per Lemonade Stand.

[A]

Okay, so we talked about it two weeks ago. We did. We did get a result. Elon lost. So I think you step back. The fundamental question was not just like, which one of these guys has bigger dicks? It was more of like, okay, there's three real questions. Was there a breach of charitable trust? Like, did OpenAI violate agreement to use Elon Musk donations for charitable purposes? And did he like, co op? Did they co opt that into their own profitable, you know, enriching themselves? And that's really the crux of it is what they're trying to argue. OpenAI's counter arguments, the biggest one, which I didn't even realize until I was looking into it this last week, is about statute of limitations. So if someone harms you, you have a limited amount of time to sue them, and after that point, you cannot sue them anymore. That's what the statute of limitations is. So in the case of something like this, it's three years. And Elon Musk filed this lawsuit claiming the OpenAI took all his money and did all this perverse stuff to enrich themselves in August 5, 2024. So the only way that his claim is legally valid is if he's saying I was harmed at or after August 5, 2021. It's three years. And OpenAI's main point is like. Like, what ended up being the main argument is we think you were harmed well before that

[D]

we did harm you, but it was a long time ago.

[A]

TechCrunch has some really good outlines of. There's a bunch of different points that they argued and that Musk argued, but that is absolutely the crux of it. So the jury unanimously decided this is what, two days ago, that Elon's suit fails because he filed it too late. All this shit happened in, like, 2018 and 20. And even judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers, who we complimented, said, quote, there was a substantial amount of evidence to support the jury's findings, which is why I was prepared to dismiss this on the spot, which is crazy. But if you look at it, Elon knew about the for profit changes in 2019. They announced like, the shift to cap for a profit back then. And like we talked about, there's all these internal emails of him saying we. We should swap to for profit and I should be in control of it. And so the idea that, like, he just now realized that he's been harmed.

[B]

Right. As he's about to public IPO.

[A]

Right. As he's about to public IPO. Right. Is about. OpenAI is about to public IO after OpenAI has ballooned to one of the most, you know, valuable companies in the world. And so he tweeted his response to this. Here it is, Perry. If you pull it up regarding the OpenAI case, the judge and jury never actually ruled on the merits of the case, just on a calendar technicality. There's no question to anyone following the case in detail that Altman and Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is when they did it. And then he says he's gonna appeal to the Ninth Circuit, and it looks extremely unlikable or unlikely that he'll be able to appeal this. I mean, it's so clear that he waited. And you can argue whether or not that lets open a off the hook. But, like, in terms of the legal process, like, it's way past. It is way past statute. Yeah, it's like a weird. It's a weird conclusion to this.

[B]

It is a weight conclusion.

[D]

Like, not.

[A]

It's not that satisfying. You're like, well, you waited Too long.

[B]

It's funny because they both. I mean, you know, on some level, Elon got a dub in that he was able to smear Sam Altman and Greg publicly, which he kind of, you know, like. But they both come off looking not so great. I mean, it was not a win for either side, really, other than OpenAI doesn't have to go and like, open source their thing and ruin their ipo.

[A]

Yeah. But, like, their argument. So Elon's was he. He said that his skepticism of the co founders grew over time until fall of 2022, when he finally decided that they had betrayed him.

[B]

And it's an insane thing to say when they win or profit, like, years.

[A]

For years prior.

[B]

And he's already has many tweets showing that he's aware of it.

[A]

And then he finally decided that they did, in fact betray him when he. When he learned about Microsoft's plans for a $10 billion investment in 2023, which, again, Microsoft had invested a billion seven, five years before that. And then OpenAI's attorneys are like, you saw the term sheet for the fundraising round in 2028, which, quote, Musk received and his advisors reviewed, but Musk said he didn't read it in detail. So it's like, dude, you had everything here and then you just waited.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Sometimes you read a. Read a headline, you make a joke about it, sometimes you don't read the information. That's busy, bro.

[B]

Maybe you're just fucking busy, bro. You had shit to do other than sue.

[A]

What a weird. What a weird trial.

[D]

It's so funny because. Yeah, it just feels so. Like, we did that episode about it and it was like, wow, what's going to happen? I wonder how it's going to turn out. And this is the most.

[B]

Oh,

[A]

by far the least interesting part of it is that this happened like, nine years ago. That's not what it was.

[B]

Funny is that, you know, from my reading, the jury deliberated for, like, no time at all. It was like insta, bro. They. For how much. For how much money they both spent on lawyers. Yes, for. For, like, this to be obvious, but

[A]

how much spectacle for them to. They fucking took Greg Brockman's private diary.

[B]

Yeah, they wrote his diary in public. He had to sit up there and read passages from his diary.

[A]

The entire premise of the thing was so bad that the judge almost threw it out initially and was like, whatever, we'll let it go to trial. When everybody knew, like, dude, you waited way too long for this.

[B]

They were reading their private text messages. That was so funny.

[A]

It seems like, you know what, Elon? Yeah. Maybe he just did this to fuck with OpenAI. I imagine some lawyer was like, dude, this, this was in 2018. This is not going to work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he's just like.

[B]

I assume one of his many, many highly paid lawyers brought that up at least once.

[D]

Yeah, but he did.

[A]

He didn't read it in detail.

[D]

Slippery.

[B]

Interesting. Okay, we just had a. You know, we should just tell the audience here. We had a brainstorm recently. We got a big whiteboard. We filled it up with ideas, and one of the things we really wanted to do on the show is add some segments. And so if you have ideas for segments that we can do, send them in. But one of the ones we had is Aiden's friend of the week. Yeah. Aiden knows a guy of his vast

[A]

and unknowable network that extends to every world leader.

[B]

By the way, you have a network on every continent and every city on this globe.

[A]

We want to know an update from one of them. We need to pick one of your friends. We want to hear about their private life. Who are they dating? Did they graduate from school? Do they, do they like their major?

[D]

They graduated, did like. I think that sounds like they like their major, got an applicable career. Did ask. Okay.

[A]

By the way. So we pitched a segment to each other. Aiden knows a guy. We have no idea who Aiden talked to or what this is about.

[B]

I can't wait to find out every week. Not every, not every week, but whenever we do it.

[D]

Because I do know a guy. And who do I know this week? You may have seen in the news that Cisco laid off 4,000 employees.

[B]

I did see us clapping at that.

[A]

Dude.

[D]

That's really strange.

[B]

That's really strange because how many employees do they have? We were going to do a segment called Stock of the week that I was doing.

[D]

Yeah, I had it ready.

[B]

It's Cisco.

[D]

Well, stock of the week. It's Cisco.

[B]

I'm not kidding.

[D]

That's like those two ideas together.

[B]

So you got laid off.

[D]

So he didn't get laid off, actually. Okay. So he, he put in a group chat with our friends. Is like, layoffs are coming tomorrow. Wondering what's going to happen. Like, am I on the chopping block? Layoffs come through. He makes it. But I wanted to ask him, you know, what is that actually like on the inside of one of these giant companies? Because you often see these headline about big companies laying off thousands of people. You know, I want to know what the vibes are like, how that works internally.

[B]

Really can you guess?

[D]

Bad, but it turns out okay, surprisingly.

[A]

Have either you guys been at a company for layoffs before? But it was a small, you know, it was a 80 person company.

[B]

No, honestly, no. Not Twitch or Video. No layoffs. Yeah, never, never stands as a great story. There was huge mass layoffs that a company was at and they lined up to turn into their keyboards and like their, like they had to like return their stuff.

[A]

Their badge and gun?

[B]

Yeah, like their badge and gun. And one of the guys, this is stuck in my head for over 10 years now. One of the guys takes it, does like a, like a kneel and goes like an Amazon warrior returning his bow.

[A]

It's so good.

[B]

And that has been stuck in my head ever since. I don't know. So anyway, I'm sure the vibes are fun.

[D]

So less of that in this one.

[A]

Admittedly, Cisco looks like they have 83 ish thousand. So this is like 5% of their work.

[D]

5% of the work they're cutting. And my friend, he's been working there for just about 10 years and I was like, you know, just how do you like working there? He says it's a good, you know, for his position. He, the pay is really competitive, good. He has a lot of freedom. He doesn't have to go into the office in his position. He works pretty regular hours. They have a great vacation plan and the perks are good. He's like, this is generally, I actually really like this job and I do like the company. And I was like, okay, 4,000 people though. You said that in our group chat in advance. You knew the amount. How does that work? And he's like, well the company has to make, when you lay off people at this scale, they have to like let the public know in some capacity ahead of time. I think either to deal with like government regulations or to deal with like the number is going to leak out because of the scale of the layoffs anyway. But they don't know who is going to be laid off specifically. But he also said that this happens at Cisco one to two times per year. This isn't strange. This is a pretty normal thing. For his entire time that he's worked there. And I was like, okay, well what about the size? Like 4,000 people? 5%. And he was like, this is on the higher end, but it's still not abnormal. Basically the company goes through some sort of restructure every year where they like are looking at the future, feel like they need to like restructure or reorganize oftentimes the company will have like merged or like acquired some sort of smaller company and we need to make changes in order to accommodate that people get let go in that process. Uh, and so, so none of this was like shocking to him. And he said, he said like, maybe it's just like, you know, maybe this is crazy, but like, this is all just normal to me. Uh, and even the, like, I asked him like, even the anxiety of like, well, what about you losing your job, like if you hadn't made it through? And he was like, well, kind of like, I do feel nervous. You don't really know until the day comes. But the reality is like for people that get laid off at our company, it's not that bad of a deal. He's like, you get six months of severance and they have a program internally where they help like connect you with a new position at a different company or like help you find a new job basically. And he said, I don't know the specifics of how it works, but the internal report is that there's a 75% success rate of that program. And also you usually something that was interesting is something that coincides with these layoffs is oftentimes company will have seen record profits for the quarter, but they're still laying off thousands of people. And Cisco did, in this case, they laid off all these people, announced their earnings, record profits, stock shoots up. And I was like, is there any acknowledgement of that juxtaposition in internal messaging? Does anyone above you, whether it be a manager, whether it be an executive,

[B]

when they announced it in the same blog post, they said earnings cross Microsoft.

[A]

That's what.

[B]

Yeah, they all do.

[D]

And I think from a third party perspective, right, those things clearly clash with each other. Like how could you lay off all these people while your company is having more success than ever? And he was like, he kind of laughed a bit. He was like, okay, well a lot of the time when you get like, usually when you get laid off or if you've been an employee here you have stock like a significant amount of stock as an employee. And so everybody that keeps their job is happy because the stock that they hold goes up. And if you get laid off, your stock goes into the stock that you had as an employee goes into like this escalated vest program. So anything that you held that hasn't vested has a chance to like speed up, invest still. So you get like an extra bump to your pay package on the way out. And he's like, as a result, people who get laid off are like not that upset.

[B]

Have a nice cushion.

[D]

Yeah. And it. And I think that was his outlook on the whole thing is like there's some bump here in that if you're one of the people remaining, there can be like a discomfort in like getting moved around or like reorg to new teams. But overall like the headline seems really heavy handed. But this is like a really normal thing at their company and the people who are laid off are treated relatively well. And I was kind of shocked by his like nonchalant answers to the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Keep in mind this is a guy who didn't lose his job at the end of the day.

[B]

Yeah. Which I think the call would be different had he lost his job.

[D]

100%. 100%.

[A]

And maybe next week's Aiden knows a guy. Talk to one of your recently laid off friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. Balance it out. I think, because the, the thing that we didn't get to and the thing that I think he didn't really reconcile with is like getting laid off in different periods of time has really different consequences. Right. Like he's talking about how good the severance or the pay package is. Which can be true. Yeah. But the likelihood of you getting repositioned to a new job now versus like 10 years ago feels drastically different.

[B]

So the story I'm thinking of is I have a friend who got laid off from Meta and was. Was paid remarkably well well there and has not been able to find a position in the same pay package despite having a glowing resume. And it's because the market is just a lot harder for stuff like that. There's less demand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it's like, you know, that, that is, that is the problem more than the severance. I think these big tech companies all pay pretty good separately. They're not. They're not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would love to hear from somebody who can say it in real words and not corporate speak, like, why you have to do this? Like, is it, is it literally just pumping stock price? Because this has happened repeatedly with big tech companies.

[D]

They have a specific answer for this layout. Okay. Basically, Cisco provides a bunch of infrastructure for AI companies like networking. And because of the amount of traffic that AI companies demand. They are. And the new type of things that they have to train employees for and the new type of technologies that they want the company to invest into. They're like, it's super profitable to support AI companies right now. Right. We need more people with that technical expertise. We're laying off a bunch of old, like older, not literally older employees. We're laying off employees that don't have that expertise and rehiring people that do. And that was one more thing he touched on was like every time there's layoffs, they rehire people. And it's not just to fill the exact same positions. It's like there's usually some internal strategy shift of we need this huge chunk of new people and we don't really need these people in their positions anymore and we're like cycling them out. That's. That's the argument that they've made publicly. And also apparently the internal messaging. Yeah.

[B]

Aiden knows a guy and that's. Aiden knows a guy and that's Aiden knows a guy.

[D]

And next week we'll talk about Wong Huning.

[B]

It's just so funny you tied that up because. Yeah, that is, I'm not kidding. The best performing like not. Not penny stock but large stock in the past month is Cisco.

[D]

Really? And that's our stock of the week.

[B]

Yeah. 33% up.

[A]

Wait, how much of that is from the like after this layoff announcement?

[B]

No. Well, they announced ruck revenue at the same time as they did the layoff. So it wasn't really the laugh, it was more the. I mean obviously all the AI companies are just dumping money into Cisco to build data centers and stuff. That's what they're making a ton of money.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But just feels like a terrible time to be laying people off. But. Yeah.

[D]

Can I give you guys a quick thing?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

A follow up to last week. I need to be shamed because I made a joke about Iceland and why it's not important.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And how they don't have a standing military because they. They're not important and they're in the Arctic. Nobody cares.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That's not true. That's not true. It's. It's. Apparently it hasn't been true for a long time.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

But ever Since World War II in the Soviet Union, they apparently as they became a more strategic.

[B]

This should be a segment Nordic fact.

[A]

No, no, no. And the second one is Aiden corrects

[B]

previous Nordic boring fact.

[D]

This is important saying.

[B]

And then every week we'll get some of the. On a Nordic country or like that area.

[D]

Yeah. I just wanted to correct the record and say that I'm wrong.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

They're strategically important now. They've arguably been strategically important since the end of World War II.

[A]

Wait, nobody ever said they weren't strategically important. Did we say what are we correcting is the fact that I made a

[D]

joke about why they don't have a Standing military last week that is based in an incorrect premise.

[B]

Is this just some comment moment you got?

[D]

And I'm here to break the record.

[A]

This one guy is.

[D]

This one guy. I'm not kidding. This was I.

[A]

All the time.

[B]

I get it.

[D]

This was like tens of people.

[A]

Okay, and let me just make sure there.

[B]

What's the population of the country?

[D]

380,000. And it's part of the reason they don't have a standing military. I knew that part. 380,000. About as many sheep to every person in that country.

[B]

Yep. Did you know in Iceland they walk backwards on Sundays?

[D]

Shut up.

[B]

They walk backwards.

[D]

Shut up.

[B]

Let me know in the comments if that's correct.

[A]

Iceland military.

[D]

I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

[A]

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[D]

They're the only country in NATO without a standing military.

[A]

Employed highly specialized unarmed staff of roughly 250 people. I'm sorry, man.

[B]

Is that a standing military to you?

[A]

It does not maintain its own armed forces and is an active member of NATO. Wait, so what are we correcting?

[D]

What? The reason.

[B]

What?

[E]

What?

[D]

Wait, I thought you were saying that

[A]

they do have a military.

[B]

They don't have a military. You got corrected in the comments. And they're like, they do have a military, but they don't really have a military.

[D]

You guys aren't listening. You guys aren't listening to me. You guys got so caught up in making fun of me that I have a fact about a Nordic country that you didn't. You didn't even listen.

[B]

A fact. You have one fact.

[A]

Wait, the fact was that they're unimportant. Is that the fact?

[D]

No. What is the fact?

[B]

What is the fact about last week.

[D]

Yeah. I said I made a joke that they don't have a standing military. Which is the true part.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because they are not like. Like, they are not important. They're too far out of the way geographically. And I'm here to. And I'm here to clear it up because tens of people were clamoring for the correct answer.

[A]

Tens of people are in the army, first off. Secondly, what is.

[D]

300. 300,000 listeners and you two coming in

[B]

don't know anything about the isolation.

[D]

And it's better to correct them, is it not? Wait, so why do you admit that we're wrong?

[A]

Do they not have the army? That's the correction.

[B]

They don't have the army.

[D]

No, they don't have the army that we agreed on. That part's true.

[B]

It's not true.

[D]

But it's not because they're not important when.

[A]

What Deal.

[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for watching Facts. Thank you for watching. Thanks for watching News that's f. Never

[D]

be scared to correct yourself.

[B]

I'll see you next week. If you want a full extra bonus hour, we roast dating about this.

[D]

If you want more Nordic facts, Patreon back to lemonade.

[B]

Primarily Nordic facts at this point.

[D]

All Nordic facts on the Patreon.

[B]

Get a ton of that on the Patreon. Thank you guys so much for watching.

[D]

See you next week.

[B]

Goodbye, everybody.