← Let's Talk Off Camera with Kelly Ripa
Let's Talk Off Camera with Kelly Ripa
Alan Jackson and Karen Read: Yes, You Read That Correctly!
00:51:19
Legendary defense attorney, Alan Jackson, and Karen Read join Kelly for an unmissable episode. Alan talks about stepping down as Nick Reiner’s attorney, discusses his time prosecuting Phil Spector, and breaks down what he calls his favorite moment ever. Karen Read details how she first connected with Alan, reflects on her critics, and what she thinks about the Karen Read Effect. Plus the two announce their latest venture, THE READ FILES.
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:11]
B
I don't like to think of it as razzle dazzle. I mean, I don't. No, no. The answer. The answer is no. I normally don't make pronouncements one way or the other about the guilt or innocence of my client because it doesn't matter to me. I don't really care. I care about the constitution. I care about whether or not the government got their job right.
- [01:27]
A
Somebody gotta cue me. Or do I cue myself? Cue yourself. Okay. This is huge jam. I know listeners. I say that every week. But this time I actually really mean it. We are live with let's Talk off camera. And today's guest is the guy you want to call if you're in trouble and your life is on the line. Jan, I have been. I just. Spoiler alert, everyone. In case I ever get in trouble, I have a little private stash of funds to retain. This guy. This is my guy. This is my guy. I'm going nowhere else. Yeah, you know him. His name is Alan Jackson. He's the elite high stakes closer who first made history by. Jan, did you know he was a prosecutor? I did. I did. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was first introduced to him during the Phil Spector trial. I watched him. He is amazing. He was a star prosecutor. Now he's a star defense attorney. The world can't stop watching from, of course, the Karen Reed trial, which you watched every second, all three of them. Most recently he was named as the n. The attorney for Nick Reiner, which he's just stepped away, left the case.
- [02:52]
C
I.
- [02:52]
A
Here's my big question. I want to get to him right away. Yeah. I just want to know the psychological pivot from prosecution to seeing that, like, can he just jump back into prosecutorial mode? Because, you know, during the third Karen Reed trial, the prosecutor was a former defense attorney, so I was like, what kind of like mental gymnastics have to go on? That's what I want to know. Let's ask him. Should we get. Should we get to him right away? All right, let's do it. He's got, by the way, this guy. I'm looking at him right now. Charming. He's from Texas, so he's like, texas charming. You know what I'm saying? And he's got that big Texas energy. He's well lit. He's got a whole lot going on. He's in a GQ model session. This, like, gorgeous office with, like, sexy lighting. And look at you, Albert. You've got a Boba Fett mask behind your head. So sick.
- [03:58]
B
I mean, this man shows up to an off camera podcast with a beautiful set. It's. It's amazing.
- [04:02]
A
Incredible. Well, let's talk to him. All right, let's get to him. Please welcome, everyone, Alan Jackson. Jackson, welcome to our humble podcast. Do I call you Mr. Jackson? Do I call you Alan?
- [04:15]
B
What would you prefer, Alan? A.J. whatever you want. It's all good. Look at this. Look at this crew. This is like the A team. I love it.
- [04:24]
A
Well, this is the only team we got. Aj. I love aj. I know.
- [04:28]
B
I'm an AJ too. That's very exciting.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [04:30]
B
You know, it's funny. I never ever asked anybody, ever. I've never asked anybody to call me AJ but for whatever reason, just through, I don't know, osmosis, something, everybody who gets to know me just eventually ends up dropping my name from Alan Jackson just to AJ So it's sort of stuck.
- [04:44]
A
You're like the J. Lo of law.
- [04:48]
B
I don't have the moves.
- [04:50]
A
So I was talking to Jan about this before, and I want to know how you went from. I kind of know because you ran for the district attorney position in LA county and you didn't win, which to me seems crazy. It doesn't seem right.
- [05:09]
B
Well, there's a lot to that, a lot to unpack.
- [05:13]
A
Very political. It's very political 2012.
- [05:16]
B
Yeah, it can be very political conversation. So I. I'm a Republican. That's not a. That's not a secret Republican from Texas running against a female Democrat from Los Angeles. There was a, there was a quite a hill to climb. She was a great candidate. She's a terrific person. Jackie Lacy is a lovely, lovely person. We ran actually a pretty broad based campaign. So we ran in the general election against, I think there was eight or nine of us in the election. And it went to a runoff just between me and Jackie. And Jackie won fair and square. And I knew at that time when I ran, I knew that I was either gonna, I was either gonna run the office or I was gonna leave the office. I had sort of touched all the bases at the DA's office that I had set out to touch. I had done all the work that I really wanted to do at the DA's office. And I thought now is the time for a chapter change. And I really did deeply. I did not want to be a politician, but I wanted to run the LA County DA's office. It was very near and dear to my heart. It's still very near and dear to my heart. Many of my friends are still there.
- [06:16]
A
Do they call you all the time for advice?
- [06:19]
B
No, not anymore. Especially the younger generation. There's a whole new generation of folks that have moved up through the DA's office and I'm still very, very close to a lot of the elder statesmen, as it were, the folks that are at the supervisory echelon. But the youngsters, they, we never cross paths and so we're, they're, you know, they, they want to, they want to get a scalp from me as, as much as anybody. So it's always a good fight. They're, you know, I find that this particular office to be highly ethical, exceptional lawyers and they, they put me through my paces quite often, but I, I try to return the favor.
- [06:58]
A
When you go, when you go up against a young up and comer head to head, do you see a future? Alan Jackson? Is there somebody, have you ever poached for you out of the prosecution, prosecutor's office?
- [07:14]
B
We have, yeah, we have. There have been some, some great lawyers at the DA's office who have ultimately worked through, worked in my office. And it was through those relationships that we built trying cases against each other or adjacent to each other. And I've learned, I keep my, my ear to the ground quite a bit in terms of who's at the office, who, the, the rising stars at the office. So it's a, it's a great batch to be able to pick from. So, yeah, we've had We've had some cr. So when you, when nobody's ever left my firm to go work for the DA's office though.
- [07:45]
A
So I'll say that I'm sure, I'm sure. It seems, I'm gonna be honest, it seems like a thankless job. It seems like a ton of work. A ton of work. You seem to be chronically under resourced. Right. You know, it's. My sister in law was a prosecutor in Florida for a time and it was very stressful and a very, it was trying. It was, it really. I think it breaks your spirit.
- [08:12]
B
It's also the best place if you want to be a trial lawyer and you want to know what it is to, to learn sort of trial by fire, that is the place to go. Go to the DA's office and, or the public defender's office. Go to a, an office that is a government office that's institutionalized in terms of it's, it's, it's rote training. They will train you very, very quickly, very fast. You have to learn very quickly how to get into a court, how to do the basic function of a lawyer, of a trial lawyer. You walk in, you have to know how to address a judge, you have to know where to stand, you have to know what protocol is. You have to know how to open a, open a case up, opening statements, you have to know how to cross examine folks. So all of those things are. You have to. There is a lot of learning that goes into that, a lot of OJT on the job training. There's no job better than learning from the DA's office. I feel like I'm a much, much better, a far better lawyer today as a defense lawyer, having been through 18. I was there, I wasn't there a minute. I was there a long time. 18 years. So it really was a fabulous training ground for me.
- [09:23]
A
Before we. I have a couple of Nick Reiner questions and I'm not sure what you can answer and what you can't answer. But before we get into that, when you were prosecuting Phil Spector, can you take me through mentally what you thought every time you saw him and particularly his hair. Hair on the.
- [09:43]
B
I was just gonna. If you didn't finish the question that way, I was gonna finish it for you. I thought about his hair. What wig is he gonna wear today?
- [09:50]
A
Fascinating. Fascinating.
- [09:52]
B
Phil was a, he was a character. Like there are no. We tried the case in, in downtown la, just adjacent to Hollywood. There is no Hollywood story quite like Phil Spector. You know, he's Bigger than Life. I was telling someone today, as a matter of fact, I was at, I was in court earlier this morning. I was having a conversation with a, a younger lawyer who wasn't around for the Phil Spector case and, and didn't really know who Phil was. And I said, you know, at the time, I don't know if this is still true, but at the time I was told that Phil Spector was the most played producer in the history of radio at the, at his zenith, at the top of his, of his career. And he had the, the song that, at least at the time, back in 2007 through 2009, when I was trying those cases, the research indicated that a single song that was the most played song in the history of the invention of radio was his song that he wrote and produced called Unchained Melody, which we all, of course, could sing in our sleep. So he was a big deal. I mean, so walking in and prosecuting somebody that sort of was, has, has been weaved into the fabric the, the DNA of our, of our society. He, I said this to the jury when, when I sort of needed to address the elephant in the room. Can you sit in judgment of someone who wrote the soundtrack to your youth, to your life? And that was, that was the challenge in the Phil Spector cases that once you have a high gravity case like that, can you, you, the jurors, sit in judgment of someone that you feel like you almost know. That's the problem with celebrity cases is you feel like you know, the person who's sitting in the defendant's seat. And for a prosecutor, it's extremely challenging. And for a defense attorney, you also have to make sure that you don't get people on the, on in the, in the jury box who have a, have an issue or a bone to pick with your celebrity client.
- [11:47]
A
So I just want to briefly ask you about Nick Reiner. You were, I guess you were on the case then. On. Was it January 7th, you withdrew from the case. Can you give us any insight into that? What was, what was your reasoning? If you. I'm sure you can't provide that, but I'm just curious, like.
- [12:11]
B
Sure.
- [12:12]
A
It seemed like you were there, then you weren't.
- [12:14]
B
Yeah, everybody's. Everybody's got that same looming question. And I, I am compelled through because of legal standards and ethical obligations. There are certain things I simply can't divulge, Kelly, in terms of why there was a change in counsel, why we stepped away and the public defender's office stepped in. But I will Reiterate what I said in the press conference, which is my team, me personally and my team remain completely and utterly committed to, to best interests. We always will be committed to his best interests. I want nothing but the best for him and I want him to get the most robust defense that he possibly can get. And I, and I know he will in the hands of the public defender's office.
- [12:58]
A
And can you explain to me what kind of defense you could, a person would launch in what seems just. And again, I'm just an observer of what I've read in the newspaper. What seems to be indefensible.
- [13:17]
B
There are, first of all, there's, there's very little in the law that's indefensible. And there's a reason for that because I don't, I never approach a case like I'm just defending an individual. Every time I approach a case on the defense side, I walk into the case and my entire team, they're all trained to walk into a case knowing full well that we're defending something bigger than an individual. We're defending the Constitution, we're defending an idea. We're defending the, the, the idea, the foundation on which this country was built in terms of its justice system. We don't live in a system in which, you know, you, you sort of ready, fire, aim, you think somebody did something, so you throw them in jail and then somewhere down the road you might give them a trial. That's not the way our system works. You have to, if you're going to do the almost unthinkable, which is to take someone's liberty, and I take that very seriously, that is, that is a God given right. That is not a man made right. That is a God given right. The liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it's built into our, the fabric of our country. If the government is going to do almost the unthinkable, which is to take away your liberty, right. And there are certain circumstances in which it's absolutely appropriate. I don't have a problem with that if it's done perfectly. So I know this is a long winded answer to a short question, but it does it, this question does bring about kind of bigger, broad brushstrokes. I don't worry about who the person is. So the word indefensible never comes up because it's completely defensible no matter who the person is. If the government doesn't get it right. And in certain circumstances there are mental health issues. I'm not talking about Nick's case, just in General, like you said, sort of the. The call of the question was, what are some defenses that are available to citizen, just any citizen. One thing we don't do is we don't punish the sick for being sick. It's no different than having cancer. It's no different than having epilepsy. If someone has an epileptic seizure and they go unconscious, and God forbid, they're in a traffic accident and something happens and people lose their lives, we don't punish that as a crime. Because someone had epilepsy and had a seizure, they can't help it. It's a. It's a mental issue. It's a physical issue. The same with mental illness. We don't punish in this country. We're very civilized. We try to be civilized. We try to be the most civilized country on the. On the planet. And part of that civilization is. And being civilized is making sure that we only punish criminal conduct. That was. Where there's a mens rea. Where there's an intent element, and if you have a mental illness that. Such that you cannot form an intent, you don't understand the character and quality of your conduct, etc. Then the system is built to accommodate that and to address that, and that is the not guilty by reason of insanity defense. So in that circumstance, a lot of people have talked about it. Kelly and what does that mean? Oh, does that mean you just. Just go to a psychiatrist for 10 minutes and then you're released? No, it doesn't mean that at all. The system is built to treat that. You go to a state mental hospital. It is a lockdown facility. You can't go anywhere. You are incarcerated in that facility for as long as it takes. If ever you become well again, that that sickness or that illness is resolved.
- [16:56]
A
And is that how like, would what you just said to me? Is that how you would make. Make an opening statement for not guilty by reason of insanity defense? Not his, but a.
- [17:13]
B
So the way it works in California is you go through if. If you enter an NGI plea which is not guilty by reason of insanity, the procedure is as follows. You enter the plea, you still go through a guilt phase, which is it's a standard trial on whether or not the defendant is responsible for and liable for, legally liable for the death of somebody else or the conduct in question. Only if the jury comes back unanimously as guilty, then you go to a penalty phase, which that penalty phase can include an ngi. In other words, the. The jury then decides separate and apart in a bifurcated proceeding, the same Jury decides whether or not you were sane or insane at the time of the conduct for which you were convicted.
- [18:03]
A
That's interesting. I didn't. I. Yeah, I did not realize that. So you have to go through an entire trial.
- [18:08]
B
It's two trials to two entire trials.
- [18:12]
A
Wow. I did not realize that at all. So when you say someone is not guilty, do you always 100% believe that? Or have you ever taken a case where you're like, I think this one's probably guilty, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna razzle dazzle it.
- [18:35]
B
I don't like to think of it as razzle dazzle. I mean, I, I don't know. The answer is no, I don't. I normally don't make pronouncements one way or the other about the guilt or innocence of my client because it doesn't matter to me. I don't really care. I care about the Constitution. I care about whether or not the government got their job. Right.
- [18:52]
A
Right.
- [18:53]
B
I mean, you can. I've. I've talked about this before. People talk about wrongful convictions. When I say, Kelly, if I said wrongful conviction, what does that mean to you? Just that phrase, wrongful conviction.
- [19:06]
A
A person that was convicted and it was wrong.
- [19:10]
B
Right. Okay. So. So most people would say the innocent. Right. They're factually innocent, yet they were convicted. That's a wrongful conviction. That is certainly a type of wrongful conviction. Another type of wrongful conviction is the person's completely guilty and yet they're convicted based on government misconduct.
- [19:32]
A
Something other than the evidence.
- [19:34]
B
Brady wasn't turned up. Brady, Evan, was exculpatory. Evidence wasn't turned over. Corners were cut on. On certain evidentiary issues. There were bad rulings by a judge. There were. There were bad arguments by a, by a DA Whatever. In other words. Or investigators cut corners and suppressed evidence on purpose. There are corners that are cut in courtrooms every single day in the United States. And my argument as a defense attorney is if the. Like I said before, not to beat a dead horse, but if the government's going to take away your liberty, if they're going to walk in and put handcuffs on you and tell you where you're going to live, what you're going to eat when you get up in the morning, when you go to bed at night, who's going to be your cellmate, and they control your life from now until they better get every single bit of that investigation correct. And I don't mean generally right. I mean perfect. That's My standard beyond any and all reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty. That's the standard that I hold the government to. And so that's what I mean by wrongful convictions. They happen all the time because the government doesn't always get it right. So I don't really care when a client comes to me and says, I need you to defend me for xyz, my immediate, my immediate countenance is, okay, let's look at the facts, let's look at the discovery, look at the investigation, and then let's start testing what the investigators did. Let's investigate the investigators. And that's where I start.
- [20:58]
A
Okay, we have to take. This is, this is. I'm so fascinated. We have to take a commercial break right now. Please stick around. We are live with Alan Jackson. Don't go anywhere, everyone.
- [21:11]
B
Foreign.
- [21:14]
A
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- [22:52]
C
He tried it and now he won't.
- [22:53]
A
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- [24:25]
B
It's a big moment.
- [24:26]
A
Okay, we are back everyone. If you're just joining us, Alan Jackson is here, criminal defense attorney, one of the great legal minds of our time. And joining him now is Karen Reed. Hi, Karen, how are you?
- [24:42]
C
Well, Kelly, thank you. How are you?
- [24:46]
A
We've been so fascinated by you and Alan and this case that I was telling Alan before I watched every trial. I watched all the documentaries, I listened to all the podcasts. So, Alan, I'm going to start with. Well, no, let me start with Karen. Yeah, Karen, did you reach out to Alan Jackson? How did the two of you come together?
- [25:14]
C
I have a short answer and a longer one that I was just explaining to Alan today that I don't think Alan knew. But shortly after I was upcharged, I came across an article and then I saw an interview on TV involving Jake Tapper, whose father is a retired doctor but had a client that Jake believed was wrongfully convicted. And right after I was charged with murder, I want to say early fall of 2022, this former patient of Tapper Senior his conviction was overturned. And then I just caught up on the story because I wanted to talk to Alan about it. And now I'm learning that he's free. This man's last name is Rice. So this is mid-2022. I'm reading about this with Jake Tapper, and Jake Tapper is saying if the number of incarcerees in the country is just over a million, and very, very, very conservatively, there's an estimate in the ether that 1% of those incarcerees are wrongfully convicted. That's 10,000 people are in prison that don't belong in prison. And I want to say Jake said in this interview, and I apologize if I'm misquoting him. I thought he said there's research that shows the numbers seven to double digits, which means you're talking about 70 to hundreds of thousands of people. And I realized I needed that this is. This could actually be happening, that I am being wrongfully prosecuted and that it happens all the time, and it's not a fluke and it's not going to get righted by someone else. I have to do it. And I reached out to a former colleague. I had left my job, and he said, in lieu of financial resources, which were dwindling for me, try calling the Criminal Justice Institute at the local universities. And I called many. One called me back, and it was the director of the program at Harvard. And I was explaining to him, I need this technical data. I can't get any. There must be cell phone data that can prove my innocence. There's got to be something. And he said, you need the legal motions. There's a lot of legwork that goes behind trying to obtain this evidence. And there was a case not too long ago in Massachusetts, so it's Massachusetts code. And the attorney was Alan Jackson, and the client was Kevin Spacey. So I looked up the case and on a whim, reached out. I emailed Alan, and Alan emailed me back about 90 minutes later. And I just said I needed his help.
- [28:01]
A
And so, Alan, take over that. Now you are presented with the. Do you. Do you look at the evidence? Do you look at the arrest report? What. What do you see when you talk to Karen?
- [28:14]
B
The first thing I saw that that was so interesting to me. The reason I responded in 90 minutes is because I saw it in about 89 minutes. Afterward, I responded about a minute because she was smart, as she always is. She's very, very clever. And she put in the subject line, which is the only thing I see on my iPhone Right when I'm checking emails, she put death of a Boston cop. I think Karen, is that murder? Is that what it was? Murder of a Boston cop. And obviously that's going to catch my attention. So I opened the email and it was extremely well written, which I appreciated. I get a ton of emails a day and the first thing I look at, I gotta filter some way. And if it's poorly written from the beginning, it's like, well, okay, if you're not going to take the time to actually write something significant, then I may not need to read it. It was very well written and it laid out her situation. And all she said at the beginning was, I need motion work. Like, do you have copies of the motions that you used in Massachusetts to uncover some of the cell phone data in Kevin's case? And I immediately said, yeah, let's get on a call, let's talk about it. Yes, I've got all that motion work. And we got on a call, cutting to the chase about a little while later, while we were on the call, I said, email me some of the evidence, including the injuries. And she did. And there was a photograph of John o' Keefe's arm. And my immediate reaction was I, I think I said, are you kidding me? Like, this is, this is. I've seen a lot of injuries. I've seen thousands and thousands of autopsies, autopsy reports, autopsy photographs. This is not from a car. This look, it's from. It looks like it's from a dog or an animal. And that's what sparked all of our interest. I actually called over to my, my partner, Elizabeth Little, whom you also know from the trial. Elizabeth, come over here. She walks over. I said, look at this. And she goes, oh, yeah, that's bullshit. That's a dog. And she walked out of the office. It took that long for us to understand, like something does not. Does not pass the smell test.
- [30:29]
A
It didn't pass the smell test. And that's what I was going to say, like, right. It. When something seems. Is that how you judge when you're on the right case or the right track? When something just doesn't. When it doesn't pass the sniff test?
- [30:45]
B
Well, we pressure test everything. As, as Karen knows, we. We don't. I don't need perfection in my case to defend a case, as we talked about earlier, because my, my client oftentimes is the Constitution. Most of the time, my client, at least a co client, is the constitution. So I don't need everything to be perfect. I just need the police to Be perfect. And I knew the police were not perfect in this case because immediately they're saying this was caused by a car, by a. By an SUV, a 6,000 pound SUV. What are the other injuries? So that just opened up the layers of the onion. And we started to pressure test everything and Kelly, everything. Every single thing we started to look at started to collapse under any scrutiny whatsoever. And I don't mean most things. I mean everything down to statements that were attributed to Karen that never showed up in a police report, evidence that was supposedly found at the location, which didn't get there until after the car was in the police custody. I mean, every single bit of evidence pointed directly to Karen's innocence, not her guilt. And so that this was. I mean, I'm. I was going to say this was a layup. There was. This was anything but a layup. This was a half court shot because it was just so difficult. We're going up against the juggernaut of the Commonwealth. But to answer your question, it's not because I didn't defend her, because.
- [32:17]
A
It.
- [32:17]
B
Was simple and all the. All the evidence pointed toward her innocence. I would have defended her no matter what. But once we started to pressure test the whole case, it all pointed to her innocence. I knew she didn't do it. I knew within the first 10 seconds she didn't do it.
- [32:29]
A
Karen, what did you think about sort of this? I'm gonna just the Karen Reid effect and how people really started rallying behind you and showing up and standing in front of the courthouse, and then like, you know, by the time they were not permitted to stand in front of the courthouse, still being like, very vigilant. And what did that. Did that hold you up in some way? Did that make you feel like any less terrified? Because I would think you would be terrified through every step of this trial, all the trials.
- [33:14]
C
I still am in awe that it even happened, that there was this groundswell and it made me question my own empathy, which I've always considered myself somewhat of an empath, but now I realize I'm not because I. I've seen injustices play out or other problems in society, and I. I wouldn't be there in the rain, in the snow or ever. I mean, now I like to think I would behave differently. It absolutely buoyed me. I've said before, it really started picking up halfway to trial in the middle of 2023. It was something to look forward to in the middle of the anxiety and nerves that we're going to get off the highway and we're going to start seeing pink and American flags. And people were every day throwing gifts or a box of donuts or cards or money. It abs. It gave me something to look forward to. And it helped. It helped me tolerate, or more than tolerate. It helped me get through without falling apart. The embarrassment of the whole thing, it was. It's incredibly humiliating. And I had to do it twice. And I knew there were people that didn't care how the state was trying to humiliate me. They cared that I was being wrongfully prosecuted. It buoyed me every single day.
- [34:41]
A
Was it. Was it only two trials? Why do I think it was three trials?
- [34:46]
C
Did I invest in the middle of the third?
- [34:47]
A
Did I invest. She's in the middle. Yes. That's it. Yes, that's it. Yes. Okay. I knew. I. Yes. So you know a lot. I watch. I watched, like I said, everything on this. This case, and there was a lot of chatter. And I can say this because I'm a woman who works on television, so I want you to know that I say this with the institutional knowledge of a person on tv. You were criticized for having a lack of emotion during the trial. What do you have to say about that?
- [35:26]
C
I. I wasn't probably as expressive as people would have expected me to be. And the only explanation I have is I had been living this for over two years by the time this really picked up, which was at the beginning of the first trial. And it wasn't just points of every day. It was all day and half the night for two years. And I had to strap myself into a mindset and stay there. I could not ebb and flow with the government. And what happened, you know, Alan. Alan said something to me early. Early on. Kelly, I would say, within a month of meeting him. And every once in a while, I tried not to because he was doing so much. I tried not to emotionally ask Alan for help to get through this, but sometimes I just couldn't help it. And I. I worried about trial and, oh, my God, this is going to be a horrible day when they play me screaming and swearing. And Alan said, there will be bad moments. It will be horrible. It will suck. You will want to. You will want to dig a hole under you and crawl into it. It will suck. But we will. We will come right back and punch them right back. And that's what you have to look forward to that for every down moment, you will get picked up. And our side and what we're doing will double the negativity of the prosecution. And it was Absolutely true. I kept telling myself that every time the prosecution directly examined one of their witnesses, I said, all right, just get through this and then it'll be our turn and our side will make so much sense.
- [37:10]
B
She had to sit there like a statue. I warned her, you have to sit there like a statue, Kelly, remember. I don't know if you do remember, but if you watch the trial, there was a lot made of this. There was one moment, one moment in two full trials over the course of six months. In trial, every single day, there's one moment when Karen allowed herself the grace and the moment to basically roll her eyes or smirk. And Karen, remind me, what was the. She remembers this when, when. And just Judge Canoni looked down and goes, what are you laughing at? Something funny?
- [37:45]
C
It was a verdict form.
- [37:47]
B
The verdict form. When we're arguing over the verdict form, right? And the verdict form was. Was a complete and absolute disaster. So I'm up there fighting about the verdict form, and the judge is.
- [37:56]
A
Is disagreeing, using verdict form. I mean, it seemed. It seemed deliberately.
- [38:04]
B
Karen. Karen counted it. In that first verdict form. There were on. On two pages of verdicts or potential verdicts. There were three spots for not sorry. There were like eight or nine spots for guilty and three spots for not guilty. For every place there was guilty should have been a not guilty right next to it, but there wasn't. So I'm. I'm throwing a fit and doing my thing, and we're. We're arguing back and forth and. And the judge says, no, this is how we always do it. And that's it. You're done. And Karen allows herself a tiny, tiny. You can play back the video. Tiny smirk and an eye roll. And Judge Kanoni launched on. Pounced on her like a. Like immediately. Immediately. I'm trying to watch my words. She is a sitting judge, and I want to be respectful. But that's why I gave Karen the. The lectures at the beginning of the trial show no emotion. It was me also.
- [38:59]
A
I was going to say, like, you are going to. Just from personal experience, not in trial, but just living in, you know, on tv, if you don't show any emotion, you are emotionless and cold. But if you show emotion, you are a hysterical woman. Right?
- [39:18]
B
There was no winning.
- [39:20]
A
That was a no win.
- [39:22]
C
People, maybe women in particular, I guess men as well there. Some are just never going to like you. I. It's the sound of my voice or it's the look on my face or it's that I have confidence going into this. You cannot win. I will not get 100 of the population to like my feel. And I was in seventh grade once. Things haven't changed much. You. You cannot aim to have everyone like you. It will not happen.
- [39:53]
A
I want to talk about the cross examination of Michael Proctor and. And how.
- [40:01]
B
Otherwise known as my favorite moment ever.
- [40:03]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think it was. I think it's sort of a master class. I think it's everybody's favorite moment of any trial ever. It's when I. I think I was like. I was like, passing through the kitchen and I sort of stopped in my tracks. It was like a moment where you just sort of stop and you're like, wait, wait, what? And so it's interesting what happens, you know, in the second trial when suddenly he's like a ghost.
- [40:38]
B
Karen, why don't you. Why don't you take the first shot at this? I've got a lot to say about that, but I want to hear Karen's perspective on this because there was a lot going back and forth. What I'm. What I'm teeing up is the discussions, Karen, that we had because there was a ton, Kelly, a ton of behind the scenes.
- [40:55]
A
Should we call him? Should we?
- [40:56]
B
Absolutely. Oh, my God. Like, just like you were talking about, there's no winning. Sometimes there was going to be no win whichever way we decided. Lots of people were saying, yeah, you have to call them. And lots of pundits were saying, there's no way the empty chair is better. So, Karen, why don't you, as the, as the referee, tee that up?
- [41:16]
C
I. We were evenly split on the legal team. We made. Excuse me. We made Michael Proctor a ghost. We could have called Michael Proctor if we wanted to then. Michael Proctor is an average guy with a tie on and maybe the same brand of watch as one of the jurors. And he finds a way, with Hank Brennan's help, to talk about his children and that he's a dad and a husband and he can't possibly be capable of these things. And he did them out of anger and loathing for what he was claiming. I did that. Why allow this man any forum to excuse away his behavior? He's a liar. We. We had all the evidence that we needed against him. We every. Not everything, because some of. Some of it we were hamstrung by the. By the court, but the evidence was out there. I certainly didn't miss being in the same room a second time with Michael Proctor.
- [42:16]
B
We also had a strategic. I mean, nothing we did wasn't highly, highly thoughtful and, And We. We tested our own evidence as well and our own strategies as well. But we knew that the. The text messages needed to get in front of the jury, the second jury, and the. The prosecution was trying as mightily as they could to defraud the jury into believing that Michael Proctor was something that he wasn't. They did not want those text messages in front of the jury. No, no, it's not relevant. You can't get it in. There's evidentiary blockades for it, blah, blah, blah. So we came up with another idea, which is. Oh, wait a minute, hang on. The text message has two sides. Actually, in this case, it has multiple sides.
- [42:55]
A
He was texting people.
- [42:57]
B
Correct. Human beings who are subject to the jurisdiction of the court, and they can be subpoenaed and they can come in and they can testify. And so that's the direction we went. Oh, you're gonna. You're gonna move your pawn. We're gonna go. We're gonna move our rook. So we called the other side of the text messages, and we got him in, and we didn't need Proctor. And then he becomes, as he was in my closing argument, he becomes the ogre under the bridge, the nameless, faceless monster who did all this. And it's. Every bit of it was true, and it worked beautifully.
- [43:30]
A
We have to take another commercial break. I'm, like, dying because I have so many. Like, I would. I. I want to follow up. I want to put a pin in it right there. We're going to take a commercial break. We'll be right back with Alan Jackson and Karen Reed. Stick around. If you know anything about me, it's that I love to do laundry. It just gives me such satisfaction. But did you also know that skin care can start in the laundry room? The first step of a sensitive skincare routine is choosing the right laundry detergent. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. All free clear is 100% free of dyes and fragrance allergens. It provides an effective clean that's gentle on the skin while removing impurities like dirt and body oil that can irritate your skin. It's made with eight carefully selected ingredients to fight stains and be gentle on skin. How great is that? Allfree Clear has been a game changer for me. It leaves my clothes feeling fresh and my skin feeling happy. I especially love that it doesn't give my laundry a strong artificial odor like some other brands. You know what I mean? For an effective skin friendly, clean wash with all Free, clear. It's often the smallest things that have the biggest impact, like a glossy lip or a smoky eye. If you're looking to amplify your everyday look, Thrive Cosmetics is your go to. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free, and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin, not against it. Like their Empower Matte Precision lipstick crayon that lets you show your confidence in lipstick form. I'm also a little obsessed with the Muna Brilliant eye brightener. It's the perfect color for me and ridiculously easy to put on that with a little liquid lash mascara and I'm good to go. And here's the best part for me. With over $150 million in product and cash donations to more than 600 giving partners, your purchase directly fuels real impact. Now that's beauty with purpose. Amplify your everyday look. Go to thrivecosmetics.com off camera for an exclusive offer of 25% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com off camera.
- [45:51]
B
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- [46:25]
A
Guys, we're back with Karen Reed and Alan Jackson. We were talking about how you got those text messages, Alan, into the trial. And I want to know, like, because, because I saw the documentary and I saw the amount of preparation that goes into working on a trial such as this. But did in that moment, did that come to you in the middle of the night? Did you sit up and say, wait a minute, there's another side to text messages. Why don't we just read the other side? Or was it just in the moment in the think tank room in the Starbucks?
- [47:03]
B
My memory, Karen will help me with this because she's got a better memory than I do. But my memory is we were in the car, we were in the SUV driving from court to the hotel after court one day and the discussion was, we were roundtabling it. David was there, Bob was there, Liza, Karen, me. We're all in the car together. And somehow that, that, that light bulb went off for us. I can't take credit for it. I don't remember if it was me, but somebody said, you know, these other These other folks, some of them we knew, some of them were out of state, and so we started talking about that. Well, wait a minute. Has anybody thought about trying to subpoena these folks to track them down? We needed to. We. All we had was. In some instances, all we had was a phone number. And we weren't going to get anything from the prosecution. They weren't. They weren't being helpful. Helpful or forthcoming. And certainly Proctor wasn't gonna. Gonna tell us who they were. So we ended up getting our investigator to dig in, you know, backtrack based on phone numbers, who were the individual subscribers? And then we. We took it from there. So it was. It was a little bit of a light bulb moment, but it. It did take a minute to go from Genesis to execution.
- [48:12]
C
But imagine that. That this is the lead investigator making incredibly biased comments about me. And we have to hire someone to find out whom he's discussing this with. What if it's another investigator or a Canton police officer? The prosecution was aware of these messages, and they weren't proactive in closing the loop on who's on the other side. We. I had to pay to have someone go look up phone records and find out who they belong to. And that there were truths the government.
- [48:47]
B
Provide, that there were truths that they desperately did not want. And that. And that's a. That's a problem when you have a government agency who's. Who's prosecuting a case. The truth should always drive the prosecution. That's it. Period. There. There is no caveat or. But the truth drives the prosecution. And in this case, it wasn't. They didn't want the truth.
- [49:07]
A
So tell me, Karen, like, you, you're found not guilty on, I mean, all of the major charges. What is life like for you in the immediate aftermath? Is there, like. Is there a comedown? Are you in a state of shock? Are you in a state of fight or flight? Like, take me through your life. Like, immediately following what happens? How do you transition back to normal life? It.
- [49:42]
C
There's just been this void that's slowly going away. I can't even say it's getting filled, but it's going away. That I had the same MO for four years, not some days high someday. It was the same intensity when Allan was just describing how we decided. I think it was you, Alan. How we decided to get the text messages in. We had moments with evidence like this every week that it's this adrenaline that propels you, and then it just stops. And I've explored. I've actually briefly Explored trying to go back to fidelity, where I worked before, and for lots of reasons. Number one, I don't think I can ride the commuter rail in peace anymore. But I just don't know what to do with myself. And I'm figuring it out. But it's surreal and it's. It is a comedown, and not in a good way. It's. I'm. I'm incredibly grateful. There is some shock. I don't know that it's quite completely hit me.
- [50:47]
A
Have you been able to mourn? I feel like you've never had, like, had the opportunity to mourn.
- [50:55]
C
I appreciate that question. I have. I did not go to John's funeral. I was. I had. There was a restraining order taken out immediately against me by his family. I have such amazing friends and family. I mourned with them. I had friends, my best friends that I traveled with many times with John. And we all. You know, we were in different places together and spent weekends together. And my family had met John. They knew John when we were 24 and dated. They. I mourned with them. And we reminisced together, and we talked about John and we cried about John. And I mourned. Short of going to the funeral, I went to church. I went to my church with my family, and I. I prayed for John. I. And like a normal person with a. A belief system would do. So don't feel sorry for me that I didn't grieve. I absolutely did. I had nothing but time on my hands, and I did. I absolutely grieved John. Which is part of the reason why, when autopsy photos were shown, I had seen them hundreds of times. I'm trying to piece together what happened, so I have to look at them. But I grieved. And thanks to my family, my parents and my friends and my faith, I. I passed through. Passed through grieving like an. Like an average person would.
- [52:26]
A
Do you think you'll move? Will you remain in Massachusetts? Do you feel safe there?
- [52:31]
C
I don't. But I also don't want to sound naive that these problems don't exist with law enforcement, maybe. Maybe worse. But we've waged a war here. There has been. We try to enumerate them, but the number changes every day. There's the commissioner of the Boston police, whom we've had a very. Alan's waged a public battle with all coming down to lying. Lying by the government. Many, many members of local law enforcement in Canton and the state police that, no, I don't see myself driving in Massachusetts exits because I worry when you get behind the wheel, it gives the government too much leeway to pin something on you. So I don't feel comfortable in the state. I don't like driving by the Canton exit. I don't like. I hate seeing a state trooper on the side of the road. I don't know that I could live like this for the rest of my life. So I. I'd like to get out of Massachusetts.
- [53:32]
A
Yeah, it's. It's got to be. I mean, that's got to be tough, Jan, don't you think? I would think it's impossible. And. And obviously, I. I'm assuming. And I don't know what you can say or what you can say, but I'm assuming you have no contact with John o' Keefe's family.
- [53:49]
C
No, I don't. I don't wish to have any contact with his family. His family knows I was never remotely abusive to John or any member of the family. I cared for him. I was generous with him. And they've had more than enough opportunity to see what everyone else sees. I mourned, mourns. Too strong of a word. But I've moved past the o' Keeffes and my. That life that I had, and I'm just going forward now. I don't wish to cross paths with them. I'm forced to now because of the civil case, but I'd like not to see them and just keep moving forward or even communicate with them.
- [54:42]
A
Do you think part of their. Part of their. Part of their reaction is that they have obviously also been deeply traumatized in a different way? And sometimes, you know, in. It's you, you, You. You reach for something, anything to. To hang on to, even if it's, you know, engaging with you in some way. Do you. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [55:12]
C
I do not pretend to have had the loss that they have had. John was someone I dated. And contrary to how it's been portrayed, I did not live with him. I had my own house that I spent a decent amount of time at, but John and I dated for two years. He was not my son or brother. So I don't understand what they've gone through and how it's made them.
- [55:39]
B
And we can't. We can't. We can't try to. We can't. And we don't try to. They're going through their process the same as everybody else, but we don't try to understand what they're going through and who's going through what. So we. We that's, that is a question for the o' Keeffe family. And we, we will always show respect for their process, but, you know, we're also in the middle of a lawsuit where they're blaming Karen for this, for this circumstance. And they sat in the same courtroom everybody else did, Kelly. They sat in the exact same courtroom and saw the exact same evidence and had access, as a matter of fact, more access, some would suggest, to the government's witnesses and to the government's, the government's evidence. And they, they have to know what the results of this, the, the presentation of this evidence are. So it's, it's mind boggling that we're even here. But you know, there, it's a free country. I, I ask, I've got a buddy of mine who's a civil lawyer and sometimes I'll, I'll say the, the unthinkable. As a lawyer, do you think so and so can sue so and so for such and such? And his answer is always the same. Alan, anybody can sue anybody for anything.
- [56:46]
A
Alan, Karen, I want to thank you both for being here. We are out of time, but I want to encourage people. You've got a podcast that's coming out soon, right?
- [56:54]
C
Yes.
- [56:55]
A
The two of you together, the Read Files.
- [56:58]
B
The Read Files with Karen Reed and Alan Jackson. That, that will be hitting platforms soon enough in the coming weeks and we're very excited about it. It's still in the making, but we're super excited and I want to thank you for the platform. We can only have these kind of conversations off camera.
- [57:14]
C
Yes, thank you, Kelly.
- [57:15]
A
Exactly. Thanks so much for being. Can't wait to talk with you all off camera next week. Bye, everyone. Let's talk off Camera with Kelly Ripa is a production of Malojo Productions. From Malojo, our team is Kelly Ripa, Mark Consuelos, Albert Bianchini, Jan Chile, Seth Bronquist, Roz Therian, Devin Schneider, Michael Halperin, Juliet Desch and team Radio Andy. Lisa. Lisa Mantineo. Scott Marlowe. Jake Getz.
- [57:46]
C
I'm Tim, a husband, father and son.
- [57:49]
B
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- [58:05]
A
Fresenius Kidney Care and learn how to.
- [58:07]
B
Thrive with kidney disease, visit kidneycoachconnect.com that's kidneycoachconnect.com Feeding the fam isn't easy, but we got you with Denny's Slammin Meal deals starting at 5.99. Full meals for everyone, like a Grand Slam Burrito for Grandpa and a Super Slam for Super Mom. Get to Denny's now valid out participating locations for Dine in or Denny's.com limited time offer. Additional restrictions may apply at some locations.