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- [00:00]
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- [00:16]
Marielle Segarra
You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. Hey, everybody, it's Marielle. Happy almost Valentine's Day. To those who celebrate. Yeah, okay. It feels early, but by drugstore standards, they put out their singing stuffed animals and chocolate filled hearts weeks ago. This episode is right on time. Today we've got an edition of Dear Life Kit the series where reporter Andy Tagle asks experts listeners burning questions. Today she's talking to two longtime love experts. Meredith Goldstein is the author of Love an advice column for the Boston globe. And Monica O'Neill is a clinical psychologist who focuses on relationships. Oh, and they're also friends in real life.
- [00:59]
Meredith Goldstein
Every time I talk to Monica about a problem, I'm like, you know, do you need a copay? I always want to make sure. I always want to make sure. So sometimes also just reminding people that some of the people who are the best counsel in your life, you can't only go to them because they are probably that person for many people. And that can be taxing. I can imagine.
- [01:18]
Monica O'Neill
I don't ever feel taxed by you, Meredith. I don't. We have had plans of these conversations over the years, haven't we?
- [01:25]
Meredith Goldstein
Yes.
- [01:25]
Marielle Segarra
By the way, Meredith says try not to worry about all the pressure around Valentine's Day.
- [01:31]
Meredith Goldstein
It doesn't mean everything. If you decide you want to have it as an excuse to get a gift or do a nice dinner, that's fine. But if you have nothing to do that day, it is also totally okay because a bunch of people aren't even gonna know it's Valentine's Day. Personally, I'm a Halloween girl, so I just, you know, you might want to pick a different holiday to really lean into. But don't let this bother you, no matter what.
- [01:54]
Marielle Segarra
After the break, they talk about work, wives, bad breath, the friend zone and more.
- [02:07]
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- [03:27]
NPR Host
President Trump is back in Washington pursuing major policy changes on his own terms. We know from the past that means challenging precedent, busting norms and pushing against the status quo. NPR is covering it all with Trump's Terms, a podcast where we curate stories about the 47th president with a focus on how he is upending the way Washington works. Listen to Trump's Terms from npr.
- [03:51]
Andy Tagle
Are we ready to jump in?
- [03:52]
Monica O'Neill
Yes, sure. Absolutely.
- [03:53]
Andy Tagle
Okay. Question Number one Dear Life Kit, My husband has a female friend at work that he's very close with. Recently I happened on a written conversation on my husband's computer with his friend. In their conversation, my husband was giving her a lot of assurance and was really open with his emotions, much more so than he is with me. When I confronted my husband, he became defensive and refused to show me any more of their conversations. He told me he only sees her as a sister quotes and that he feels I'm being competitive for no reason. How should I navigate this? Signed Wary of Work Wife? All right, Monica, I'm going to turn to you first.
- [04:38]
Monica O'Neill
Okay. Well, I think the hard part about this question is it's so multi layered. It sounds like the thing that hit her to the hardest was the fact that her husband is more emotionally available and open with this bestie. And there's something that's not surprising about that. But I can imagine that might fall hard on anybody that's on the other side of that, number one. And then number two, if there is no discussion about her and the positive things about her, if this like work wife slash bestie isn't like giving any kind of deference to the actual wife and the marriage and his family life, that to me is like a big, big red flag and war, that there need to be boundaries in place. That's my first thought.
- [05:20]
Andy Tagle
Okay, you're being more generous than I Am feeling. But we'll. Let's turn. Let's turn to Meredith, who I think is still. Who's probably going to be kinder than the both of us. Meredith.
- [05:28]
Meredith Goldstein
So I think the first thing is to totally agree with Monica. Like, so much of this issue is about what's not being talked about at home and the relationship, the pieces of the relationship that are missing. And I also want to say right off the bat that I tend to be overly generous in situations like this, partly because at the Boston Globe, I have a best friend. We don't like work wife and work husband. Those terms. But very early on in our now very long friendship, he was so excited to meet someone who was a friend. Not just the parents of his children's friend, but a friend he chose. That felt right. And for me, at a time that so many friends were getting married and having kids and unavailable, he came into my life ready to go see a movie. Right. And listen to some records. And so many of our mutual acquaintances would say, well, is this weird? And what we learned was that very quickly, I was not just a work friend, not just a work wife. I was brought to his home. I hung out with his family. I just think that so much of this is about maybe separating the church and state of it all, that if it's more mysterious than understood, I can understand why there are weird feelings.
- [06:37]
Monica O'Neill
The fact that you also were open to being a part of, like, his family's life and friends with his wife, That's. I think that's the difference. And my hunt punches he. If she asked him about you, he didn't get defensive. The way it sounds like this husband did, that would be the big, like a big red flag, you know, on my part, because I. I unders. Okay, you're telling me that she is just a friend to you, but what are you to her? That's the piece that I would need to know.
- [07:02]
Andy Tagle
Yeah.
- [07:02]
Monica O'Neill
Well, I'm gonna tell you. At the beginning of my relationship with my current partner, he talked about this friend that he had. And when we started dating, there's something inside of me was like, she's a little too over familiar with me in a way that I don't know her, or she's saying things that feel loaded to me. He and I argued about it because he was very hurt. He was like, she's actually just a friend. And it's hard for me as a guy to make good friends at this point in my life. So I was like, I got it. Cool. Let's do a test My love. And so, you know, I was just like, let's be scientists about this. So, literally, while we were on a trip, driving from Colorado back to Boston, we took beautiful, beautiful photos. And I was like, and when she messages you, message her back. Monica and I are having a great trip. Look at our photos. And if she doesn't say anything about the Monica and you having a great trip, and she doesn't say, these are beautiful photos, you know, she wants you, and you need to set some boundaries.
- [07:59]
Meredith Goldstein
Wait, what was the answer? What was the answer?
- [08:01]
Monica O'Neill
She didn't say jack squat about the photos. She didn't say anything. She didn't even. She didn't even say, I'm glad you and Monica are having a good time. And so in that case, I was right.
- [08:12]
Meredith Goldstein
Yep. Yep. I'm not. You were right.
- [08:15]
Andy Tagle
Okay. I really like your approach to that. And I also think it's a fair point that you're making, Meredith. I think you're allowed to have friends of different genders. I agree with you. For me, it's the husband not having any emotional intelligence at home and then having a high degree of emotional intelligence for this random co worker. That's what would really, really hurt me.
- [08:32]
Monica O'Neill
Yeah. Experiencing my partner being emotionally available to another person when I don't experience that, that would hit very hard. But I would also be. Again, this is the therapist in me, you know, says, be curious about this and ask the question, like, what is different about this bond that makes it easier for you to respond in this way? Because this is what I wish that I got from you. You know, I think I would be. I would. Those are the kind of conversations I would lean into. And if he's still being a jerk and saying, you're being jealous and competitive and being unreasonable, I think I would have to check him on that.
- [09:05]
Meredith Goldstein
One thing that this reminds me of is that during my friendship, especially when their kids were young, I feared I was getting a better version of my friend than his wife was getting. Because with me, he was well rested, he wasn't interrupted by toddlers, and he and I did talk about, if everybody's getting the best of you except your partner, what support do you need so that you can talk to each other while you're awake without 80 distractions? Because it's not fair that you and I get to sit through a movie and have fun, and the two of you never do.
- [09:34]
Andy Tagle
Any parting thoughts for wary of work wife?
- [09:37]
Meredith Goldstein
Yeah. I think have a big dinner all together and see how it feels. And that might answer a lot of questions.
- [09:42]
Monica O'Neill
Right.
- [09:43]
Andy Tagle
Well, good luck to you. Wary of work, wife? We're thinking of you. Are we ready for question two?
- [09:48]
Monica O'Neill
Yes.
- [09:49]
Andy Tagle
Dear Life Kit, I started spending time with a man that I really like. He's a great communicator. He's generous and he's kind. The problem is his breath is very bad. And I think it may be a deal breaker for me. What should I do? Signed, waiting with bothered breath. Two points for you for that wonderful sign off. Okay, so lighter territory here, but still a puzzler. How are we feeling with this question?
- [10:16]
Monica O'Neill
Well, so again, this is a personal thing for me because I remember being back in graduate school having a similar encounter with somebody that I had known all through colle. We both ended up in D.C. together, and eventually we kind of started dating, but it was still very early on. But I thought because of the familiarity that we had from having known each other years before, I could actually bring this up to him. And so I tried to be very ginger. I tried to approach it very gingerly. And it. It just did not work out at all. Like, in the end, it just like, yeah, things just, like, over time, I would say probably over the next couple weeks, I just. There were less phone calls, less whatever, until it was just like, I think.
- [10:57]
Marielle Segarra
We should be friends.
- [10:58]
Meredith Goldstein
The thing is, I'd want to know. So that makes me feel like, even if that guy was like, I cannot overcome the fact that she said this. I hope that someone else is, you know, enjoying the benefits of a more hygienic routine. But, you know, there's no easy way. But if it were me, I would very much appreciate someone telling me kindly.
- [11:21]
Andy Tagle
Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. I was kind of approaching this. This question from a different lens that, like, dumping someone over bad breath might be seen as a little bit petty. And so the bigger question for me here is that if something is super small, but it bothers you really deeply, are you wrong?
- [11:38]
Meredith Goldstein
It reminds me of a letter I received once from someone who wanted to know if it was fair to break up with someone who was otherwise very nice because they slipped into baby talk. The thing is, this guy liked to do baby talk. And I'm not talking about in the bedroom. I'm just talking in life. And it was infrequent, but when it happened, it poisoned the outing. And, like, it's. Is it small or is it big? If he likes to do baby talk, he should be with someone who loves it. So, yeah, I think, you know, to Monica's point, feedback is great. Accepting Feedback is great, but I wouldn't feel bad because you think it's small, because you got to put your mouth on that mouth. It's not that small.
- [12:17]
Andy Tagle
All right, question three. Here we go. Dear Life Kit, My husband is almost 20 years my senior, and we've been married for 16 years. Our age gap never bothered me before. But now that he's in his 70s, he's become more forgetful than he used to be. And he seems depressed. I've suggested therapy or hobbies or trying medication, but he refuses at all. I love my husband and never imagined leaving my marriage due to my partner's age. But I'm getting much less out of our relationship than I used to. I feel that I have so much more to live for. But he doesn't feel the same way. What should we do? Signed, Young at Heart. This one makes my heart heavy. Monica, you have a much different look on your face.
- [12:58]
Monica O'Neill
I've struggled with this. I try not to be judgmental whatsoever, but okay. You know, my parents are going on 52 years of marriage and my dad having gone through cancer twice and my mom having gone through a kidney transplant. And, like, her perspective on being able to go through those things in partnership and the way that it changes the relationship and how, like, the. The connection grows and deepens and there's an appreciation that's there. So it's hard for me not to personally, like, look at this and be, like you said, in sickness and in health, you know, and he was always 20 years older than you.
- [13:33]
Meredith Goldstein
The issue to me is not the age difference. It's his inability or. Or discomfort with having any kind of help. Whether that be, you know, talking to a doctor, talking to a therapist. Like. And I think if a partner looked at me and said, I'm having trouble in this relationship now. Can we get help? I wanna say yes to that. So, like, the issue to me is not the age gap. It's philosophy is about assistance. And I wonder, you know, so many letters that come into me. I'm like, well, you should go talk to a professional. But yet I'm talking to a letter writer who is telling me their partner will not go to therapy with them or alone. And I always wanna ask, like, a therapist, like, Monica, what do. What do you tell that person if you're with somebody who refuses any kind of intervention? Is there hope?
- [14:16]
Monica O'Neill
Right. Well, no. So that was my second part of it. I actually think it's incredibly selfish when people don't. When people refuse help, I always tell my patients, and I've Said this to my partner, too. Like, you know that what you're going through is not just happening to you. It's also happening to me. And I need to trust that you care about my experience. And so I do think it's incredibly, incredibly selfish for him to. To refuse help. I think the thing is, is, you know, it's hard to know, but the tone of this letter, it doesn't. It seems less cooperative and less collaborative of, like, I'd like for us to get help, and I'd like for us to adjust to this change together. It's more kind of like, I want to live life, and he's not doing anything. And I think that's the piece that I'm reacting to. And it's hard to know that, but that's. That's the tone of what I'm getting. Does that make sense?
- [15:08]
Meredith Goldstein
Yeah, absolutely. I got a letter recently from somebody whose spouse was starting to believe conspiracy theories. And she was wondering, is she allowed to leave a situation because she felt like she was married to somebody else? And in that sense, she kind of was. And my thought was, this isn't even feeling safe for you at the moment. And I think, you know, that changes things quite a bit. So I think there's a big difference between sickness and health, aging, caring for somebody throughout, you know, the journey of life, and, wow, this is no longer the person I married. And there is a better way for us to find happiness. So, I don't know, Monica, you're, like, better about these kinds of marital values. Do you fall in the same place with that about when it's okay to go?
- [15:55]
Monica O'Neill
I do think that at some point it's okay to say, this is just not good enough, or it's not sustainable enough for me and my wellbeing. And so because of that, I have to go. But I do think that everything should be exhausted before you get to that point. There could be so much more truthfulness and acceptance. So I think you have to leave room for that to be a possibility. And I think so often people are afraid for that to be a possibility because that takes a lot of vulnerability and hard work to say, I know I need something different. What can we build together? And if I love you enough, and if I'm in our commitment and our vows mean enough, let's try to do that first.
- [16:32]
Andy Tagle
Don't be hasty.
- [16:33]
Monica O'Neill
Yeah.
- [16:34]
Andy Tagle
Ready for our last question?
- [16:35]
Monica O'Neill
Sure.
- [16:36]
Andy Tagle
Dear Life Kit, I had dinner with a good friend recently. We were close in high school, and despite living a few hours apart, we keep in touch. And meet up every couple years. During dinner, things turned a little flirtatious. He walked me back to my car and kissed me goodnight. He caught me off guard, but I was pleasantly surprised. The next day he sent me a text saying he didn't want to pursue a romantic relationship because he's afraid to lose me as a friend. But kissing me and then taking it back risk losing me as a friend too. Since I feel really hurt and confused, what should I do? Signed, friend zoned.
- [17:08]
Meredith Goldstein
This one makes me so mad.
- [17:09]
Andy Tagle
Meredith, please.
- [17:10]
Meredith Goldstein
Yes.
- [17:11]
Andy Tagle
Okay.
- [17:11]
Meredith Goldstein
Because I am a person who has had unrequited or mildly requited crushes on friends. My first thought hearing this is if you need some space, take whatever you need. But I'm coming from a place where I'm Talking to my 23 year old self saying, yeah, he kissed you and then changed his mind. And you're so upset.
- [17:32]
Andy Tagle
Yeah, absolutely. That is, I just feel like there's no way to un. Awkward. This awkward.
- [17:37]
Monica O'Neill
I, you know, it's interesting. I have a, you know, I'm with you. I have a slightly different thought only because this has come up like in conversations that I've had like with my partner. I feel like there's like perhaps a dude perspective that I never thought about that he put out there for me.
- [17:54]
Andy Tagle
I'm ready.
- [17:55]
Monica O'Neill
He basically just said out forthright. He was like, I think men say that because they just don't want to either go there physically with somebody or they just know that there's not going to be a future. And when he said that, I was like, well, why would he go there anyways? He's like, because everybody's curious. People want to know. But like what? He's like, implicit in that is saying, because I don't see a future with you, this I really don't want to go there with you. And when he said that, I was like, oh, that's another, I hadn't thought about that before.
- [18:22]
Meredith Goldstein
Well, I'm thinking about your own advice to me and to people who read and listen to love life. You talk about ghosting. Right? And Monica is a very class act when it comes to never ghosting anyone and believes that there's never a reason to. And this is something I've tried to adopt in my own life. And I wonder to your set of rules, would this have been better if this guy had said the minute we kissed, five minutes later I thought this isn't it? Yes, like I, I, you are my friend. It is platonic as opposed to I'm afraid of ruining the, no, I don't want it. I wanted it and then I didn't. And I hope it doesn't ruin it because everything in my gut told me, yes, I want what we already have. And that that could have. While. While it seems a little bit more cruel, I think it might be more kind.
- [19:09]
Monica O'Neill
Yes, no, absolutely. It's worth having the conversation that close the loop. And she can share how much she was hurt because as a friend, he still should care about her feelings and care about whether or not he hurts her. But I think she's also learning that he probably is just not it for her.
- [19:26]
Andy Tagle
But you both think that there's a world where they can be friends after this?
- [19:30]
Meredith Goldstein
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, especially if there's a little bit more honesty and clarity, I think it can all be there. This is with the caveat also that, like, I don't know if this, if this person has been harboring unrequited feelings for a very long time. And this was like, finally, the kiss that's a little bit harder to get over. But then your relationship wasn't really platonic to begin with. It was. It was something else. So you should be able to overcome this.
- [19:55]
Andy Tagle
Monica, Meredith, it has been such a pleasure. Before I let you go, we ask every guest of dear Life Kit for their very best piece of advice.
- [20:02]
Meredith Goldstein
I can go. Which is Monica's brilliant thought that don't ghost people. Be clear. Say the thing. Even if it makes you feel a little weird to say it. I think that's fair. Like, sometimes saying the thing is so much better than not saying anything at all.
- [20:16]
Monica O'Neill
Meredith, I love you so much. Thank you for that. That's really sweet. Many, many years ago, I had such a wise, wonderful therapist named Anne who basically said to me, goodbyes are supposed to feel sad. They're supposed to feel painful. This is a normal thing. It really, it was like such a, aha, life changing moment for me.
- [20:38]
Andy Tagle
Monica, Merida, thank you so much for letting me in to your friendship bubble for today. I feel so warm from the glow of your love and friendship.
- [20:48]
Monica O'Neill
Thank you.
- [20:49]
Meredith Goldstein
Thank you.
- [20:51]
Marielle Segarra
That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle talking to Monica O'Neill and Meredith Goldstein. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have one on cooking when you're just not that into cooking, and another on how to improve your posture. You can find those@npr.org LifeKit and if you love Life Kit and want even more, subscribe to our newsletter@npr.org LifeKitnewsletter Also, we love hearing from you. So if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us@lifekitpr.org this episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Grebe. Meghan Keane is our supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret Serino. Engineering support comes from Robert Rodriguez. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.
- [21:42]
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- [22:13]
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