How to get on the same page about money with your partner

Summary

Life Kit Podcast Episode Summary Title: How to Get on the Same Page About Money with Your Partner
Host: Mariel Segarra, NPR
Release Date: February 13, 2025

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In this insightful episode of NPR's Life Kit, host Mariel Segarra delves into the often delicate subject of money within romantic relationships. Recognizing that financial matters are a significant source of tension for many couples, Mariel converses with Shay Harris Pierre, a licensed professional counselor and certified financial therapist, to unpack the complexities of money dynamics between partners. The episode offers listeners practical advice on understanding differing money values, navigating conflicts, and fostering financial compatibility.

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1. The Importance of Discussing Money in Relationships

Mariel Segarra opens the episode by highlighting the prevalence of financial disagreements among couples. She underscores that while discussing money might not seem romantic, it's crucial for maintaining a healthy and harmonious relationship.

"Maybe it's not the sexiest topic, especially if you don't have a lot of money, but it is a huge factor in relationships."
— Mariel Segarra [00:58]

She introduces Shay Harris Pierre, who shares her expertise on the subject, emphasizing that disagreements about spending habits, financial knowledge, and lifestyle backgrounds are common reasons couples seek her counseling.

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2. Understanding Money Personalities: The Four Money Scripts

Shay Harris Pierre introduces the concept of "money scripts," which are ingrained beliefs and behaviors surrounding money. She references the work of the Clontz brothers, categorizing money scripts into four primary types:

a. Money Avoidance

Individuals with a money avoidance script perceive money negatively and tend to distance themselves from financial matters. This may stem from witnessing financial conflicts in their upbringing.

"Money avoidance is the idea that money is bad and because money is bad, I have to distance myself from it."
— Shay Harris Pierre [04:24]

Behaviorally, this can manifest as "noble poverty," where individuals feel guilty about having money and deliberately limit their earnings.

b. Money Status

Those who align with the money status script equate their self-worth with their net worth. They believe that accumulating wealth elevates their personal value and social standing.

"Money status is often really connected to wanting to be connected to other people."
— Shay Harris Pierre [05:50]

This script drives individuals to showcase their financial success to gain respect and admiration from others.

c. Money Worship

Money worshipers view money as the primary source of happiness and stability. They may prioritize financial gain over relationships and personal well-being, often becoming workaholics in pursuit of wealth.

"Money worship is the idea that money is everything... these people show up in the world as workaholics."
— Shay Harris Pierre [05:50]

Underlying this script is the belief that money provides security and a sense of accomplishment.

d. Money Vigilance

Individuals with a money vigilance script meticulously monitor and control their finances. They are proactive in tracking expenses, investments, and financial planning.

"Money vigilance is the belief that money should be controlled, that money should be kept track of."
— Shay Harris Pierre [06:33]

This behavior can lead to conflicts in relationships, especially when paired with a money avoidant partner who prefers to steer clear of financial discussions.

Shay emphasizes that these scripts are not mutually exclusive and individuals may exhibit traits from multiple categories. Moreover, one's primary money script can evolve over time based on life experiences.

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3. The Impact of Differing Money Scripts on Relationships

Differing money scripts between partners can create significant friction. For instance, pairing a money vigilant individual with a money avoidant one can lead to constant tension over financial discussions.

"That can cause a bit of conflict or strife as it pertains to money and relationships."
— Shay Harris Pierre [07:23]

Shay also notes that internal conflicts often arise from contrasting financial upbringings, such as one partner coming from a wealthy background while the other did not. These disparities can mimic cultural differences, adding another layer of complexity to financial harmony.

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4. Strategies for Effective Financial Communication

To mitigate conflicts arising from differing money scripts, Shay advocates for clear and honest communication. She advises couples to:

• Understand Each Other's Money Personalities: Recognize and respect each other's financial beliefs and behaviors.

• Release Judgment: Avoid deeming differing approaches as wrong; instead, seek to understand the underlying reasons.

• Explore the Roots: Delve into each other's financial backgrounds and past experiences that shape current attitudes towards money.

"If you're able to release that idea that different is bad or different is wrong and just see different as different, you may be able to see that under the surface of just simply not wanting to talk about money there may be a lot of anxiety around that."
— Shay Harris Pierre [09:37]

For couples navigating significant life transitions, such as deciding to have a child or one partner choosing to stay home, Shay underscores the importance of setting clear expectations and regularly checking in on each other's needs to prevent resentment.

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5. Assessing Financial Compatibility in Early-Stage Relationships

Mariel and Shay discuss the significance of evaluating financial compatibility early in a relationship. Shay recommends asking thoughtful questions to uncover a partner's financial values and habits, such as:

• "What do you value when it comes to money?"
• "How do you manage your money?"
• "How did you earn your first dollar?"

These questions can reveal underlying money scripts and provide insight into how a partner's financial past influences their present behavior.

"I love asking that question because it always brings up beautiful stories that again show that through line throughout a person's life."
— Shay Harris Pierre [16:10]

Mariel shares personal anecdotes to illustrate how responses to these questions can inform one's understanding of a potential partner's financial mindset and compatibility.

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6. Determining Deal Breakers in Financial Matters

Shay acknowledges that financial compatibility is multifaceted, extending beyond income levels to include money management skills, communication transparency, and mutual financial goals. She advises individuals to consider their priorities and how much weight they place on financial alignments when assessing potential deal breakers.

"Different people have different priorities when it comes to money... there's a lot of pieces to that puzzle that make up who a person is and how they will show up in a relationship."
— Shay Harris Pierre [18:33]

She encourages listeners to balance financial considerations with other relationship factors, such as emotional connection, shared values, and mutual respect.

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7. Key Takeaways

• Identify Your Money Personality: Utilize the four money scripts—Money Avoidance, Money Status, Money Worship, and Money Vigilance—to understand your financial behaviors and beliefs.

• Foster Open Communication: Engage in honest, nonjudgmental discussions about money to uncover assumptions and seek compromises that honor both partners' values.

• Assess Financial Compatibility Early: Use strategic questions during the dating phase to gauge financial alignment and identify potential areas of conflict.

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Conclusion

Mariel Segarra and Shay Harris Pierre provide a comprehensive guide for couples navigating the intricate landscape of financial relationships. By understanding and respecting each other's money personalities, maintaining open lines of communication, and proactively assessing financial compatibility, partners can build a stronger, more harmonious union. This episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone looking to harmonize their financial lives with a significant other.

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Credits:
This episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Visuals edited by Beck Harlan, with digital editing by Malika Grebe. Supervising editor Megan Kane and executive producer Beth Donovan led the production team, which also includes Andy Taegle, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support by Patrick Murray.

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Transcript

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[Mariel Segarra]

You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. Hey cuties, it's Marielle. Happy Valentine's Day. Now, when you hear Valentine's Day, you probably think chocolates and rose, dim lighting and mood music. Here at Life Kit, we'd like you to add something to that money. We want you to talk about money with your partner or whoever you're dating. Yeah, maybe it's not the sexiest topic, especially if you don't have a lot of money, but it is a huge factor in relationships. Shay Harris Pierre is a licensed professional counselor and certified financial therapist. And she says couples have all kinds of disagreements about money.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

There's my partner spends too much or I don't want to spend money in this way and my partner wants to spend money in that way. And it's not important to me. My partner doesn't know a lot about money or didn't come from the same kind of lifestyle or background that I do. A lot of couples end up in my office when it comes to parenting and how they want to talk to their kids about money or how they want to build their life together. Do we want to pay for our kids college? Do we want them to, you know, pay for it themselves? Or like those Transition times are also a big moment of conflict for couples as well.

[Mariel Segarra]

Whether you're in a committed relationship or just on a first date, if you're in the realm of romance, money is going to come up and we need to know how to talk about it. On this episode of Life Kit, I talk to Shay about the different values and personalities people have around money, how those can create conflicts in romantic relationships and how we can start to understand our partners money perspectives and figure out whether we're compatible.

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[Listener]

What are some of the different values that you find people have around money?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

I tend to really fall back on the four money scripts. In some work that I believe the Clontz brothers have done over the years, they kind of narrowed it down to four main money scripts, and those are Money Avoidant, Money Status, Money Worship, and money Vigilance. We can all exhibit some of these beliefs or behaviors in one way or another, and none of them is more adaptive or maladaptive than the other. It's all about balance.

[Listener]

I'm curious to hear what each of them mean.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yes, so money avoidance is the idea that money is bad and because money is bad, I have to distance myself from it. Money makes me nervous because money causes issues or there's never enough of it or, you know, I witnessed my parents always fighting around money. And what that can look like behaviorally is what some people call noble poverty. The idea that I have to not make a lot of money because if I do make a lot of money or if I do have money, then that means that I'm a bad person. Then there is money status. You know, my self worth is my net worth. So the more money I make, the better person I am or the more important I am. People with money status as their kind of core money script also see their worth in relationships as being connected to how much money they have. And so the more they're able to show that they have things that they have, the nicest stuff, the more in their mind people will respect and revere them and want to be around them. So it's less about just kind of being flashy for the sake of being flashy. Money status is often really connected to wanting to be connected to other people.

[Mariel Segarra]

All right, and what's the third one? Money worship.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yeah, money worship is the idea that money is everything, whereas money avoidance is, you know, money is bad, I don't ever want anything to do with it. Money worship Is the opposite. The more I have, money wise, the happier I'll be. And so these people show up in the world as workaholics. They may sacrifice relationships for the sake of making more money, or they may sacrifice other things in their life for the sake of sake of making more money, because that money represents happiness, but also underneath that, that money might represent stability, safety, and all of those things.

[Mariel Segarra]

Okay, and then the last one is money vigilance.

[Listener]

Right. What is that?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Money vigilance is the belief that money should be, like, controlled, that money should be kept track of. These are the people who are, you know, checking their bank accounts every day, who are, you know, watching the stock market to see how their investments are doing. These are people who are really interested in knowing exactly what's going on in their money life at every moment. And it can be really polarizing when you have a money avoidant person and a money vigilant person in a relationship together, because the money avoidant person doesn't want to talk about money at all. And the money vigilant person always wants to talk about money. So that can cause a bit of conflict or strife as it pertains to money and relationships.

[Listener]

Yeah. Or a money status person and a money avoidant person. Because I feel like the money avoidant person might fit into that category of I think money is evil. And then the money status person is like, I want to have as much money as possible.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yeah.

[Listener]

These categories that you've talked about, can you be more than one of them, or can you associate more with one, or can one resonate, you know, at this time in your life, but, like, maybe in a few years it's more the other one?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Oh, absolutely. I think that we all exist in between all four of these kind of categories, but there tends to be, for most people, at least one or two that really stand out at any point. But I don't think that they're static throughout the course of our lives.

[Listener]

I imagine you might even have internal conflict because of maybe how you grew up having parents who had really differing opinions and personalities around money.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Absolutely. You know, we internalize so much of what we see in our families of origin with our parents and our extended family members, our siblings even. And so we get so much of our financial socialization. So much of that happens at a subconscious level, and it can lead to those internal conflicts of, hmm, I really want to have these nice things because maybe I never had them before, or they represent connection to other people. But my mom always said rich people are terrible people. They're selfish or whatever. And so that internal dialogue definitely happens, especially with the clients that I see who've experienced that cross class growth. Because there are a lot of those conflicting mixed messages.

[Listener]

Yeah. And I feel like where this can go wrong in relationships is when one partner is really judging the other. Without trying to understand where that money personality is coming from. How can people start to dig a little deeper and say, I want to understand why you feel the way you do. I know we have this difference.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yes. Because your partner doesn't see things the way that you see them doesn't mean that your partner is wrong. Even if you may not agree. We don't always have to agree with our partners. But to see where they're coming from without automatically thinking, my partner doesn't ever want to talk about money because they're wrong. And you know me as a money vigilant person. I've got to talk about it. And that's the only right way to do it. If you're able to release that idea that different is bad or different is wrong and just see different as different, you may be able to see that under the surface of just simply not wanting to talk about money. There may be a lot of anxiety around that. There may be a physiological response or a significant, potentially financially traumatic event in their past that's leading to this reaction or this response or this approach to talking about money. And that's when couples are able to connect and see each other and be able to build a path forward.

[Mariel Segarra]

Takeaway 1. A lot can inform your money personality. Financial trauma from childhood, the socioeconomic class you grew up in, your friends, views on money, anxiety, a need for security or connection. Take some time to put words to your own money views that'll help you understand money conflicts that you're having in your relationship. Shea recommends using the four money scripts as a starting point. Money avoidance, money status, money worship, and money vigilance.

[Listener]

Do you find that there's more disagreement when one partner grew up with a lot of money and the other one didn't?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

It just looks a little different, I'd say. I guess a lack of understanding is where I'm going with this. Around some of the cultural pieces of each socioeconomic class. So in some ways, cross socioeconomic relationships can mimic cross cultural relationships. There can be some some ways that those two types of relationships mimic one another.

[Listener]

Even among couples that grew up in pretty similar circumstances, they might have very different views on money. And sometimes I have seen that breakdown on gender lines, like maybe mom stay home to take care of the kids, because daycare is too expensive. So she. She lets go of some of that career advancement and her salary. And it's an agreement that she made with dad. But the wife, like, loses autonomy over what she's allowed to buy because it'll be sort of like, looked askance at. Like, you're not bringing in any money, you know? Or like, look at all this.

[Mariel Segarra]

You're. You're.

[Listener]

Look at all this money my wife is spending.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yeah.

[Listener]

If a couple is deciding that they're gonna have a kid and one of them is gonna stay home with this kid and not work anymore or cut back on working a lot, how can they have conversations ahead of this so that they don't fall into a trap of resentment around money?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Having clear, open communication about what this will look like will be very important. Are we actually being about how much energy is going to go into being a stay at home parent? And what will the stay at home parent need emotionally, physically, mentally, to be able to do that work without becoming resentful? And then what will the working parent need from the stay at home parent to not become resentful? You know, if I leave the house in the morning and I come home and you're exactly in the same spot on the couch that I left in, that might trigger me and make me feel upset.

[Listener]

Meanwhile, the stay at home parent has done, like, a million things and is just sitting down for the first time today.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Exactly. Yes. So a solution to that problem or something that could happen could be that they talk about their days together. This is what I did today. This is what I did today. This is what I need right now. At the end of each day. Maybe you might need a grandparent to help out with the kid while they connect as a couple. Having conversations about that can really help reduce the risk of that building up.

[Mariel Segarra]

All right, takeaway two. Once you know your money personality and your partner's money personality, start talking. Check in with these kinds of questions. Are you making any assumptions about your partner's actions? Is gender factoring into this disagreement at all? Did you come from different cultures or socioeconomic backgrounds? And is that affecting how you come into this argument? Is there any way you can find a solution that respects both of your values? Shay says you want to focus on being clear, honest, and nonjudgmental as you talk. If you're dating, how can you get.

[Listener]

A sense of someone else's money values?

[Mariel Segarra]

You know, before you get really serious or before you get married? What are questions you can ask each.

[Listener]

Other in the earlier stages?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

I am a big proponent of being as clear and direct as possible. So what do you value when it comes to money? How did you learn how to manage money? Or how do you manage money? One of my favorite questions is, how did you earn your first dollar? My favorite part about asking that question is seeing how people's answers to that question are often mirror what they currently do in their life. Like, someone on my podcast mentioned selling painted rocks at a family reunion, and that was how they earned their first dollar. And it's funny, because that person, you know, is now in the finance field, wanted to go into business and, like, sales was kind of a part of their life. It's interesting to see that, and I think it can tell a lot about a person. What they value, why they wanted to earn that dollar, what they did with the dollar that they earned. It's less direct as some of those other questions, what do you value? And all that stuff.

[Listener]

I like that these are good questions to ask when you're dating someone. I earned my first dollar, I think it was at my frozen yogurt store job when I was like 15, and I was making $5 an hour. And I hated the job, hated it. The smell of the cleaning fluid that we had to use, and just I couldn't eat frozen yogurt for a long time after. But I was earning part of the cost of this school trip that I wanted to go on that was like a optional trip to Germany and Poland, and I really wanted to travel. And then when I was in Germany and Poland, I was just like, like my internationally. I was. So I had a great time, and it, like, sparked a love of travel for me, and it showed me that I could have a goal and meet it.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

That's so beautiful. I love that. Yeah, See, I love asking that question because it always, you know, brings up beautiful stories that again, show that through line throughout a person's life.

[Listener]

Yeah. But I can imagine for someone like me that if someone said to me, like, I earned my first dollar as interest on the trust fund that I was given, it might feel like an unsatisfying answer to that question on a date, you know?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

And, I mean, that's where, you know, being curious is very important too, because what does that mean to that person that their first dollar was earned in a trust fund? And, I mean, do they even count that as earning it? Like, some people may have money that's been set aside for them, but they may not count that as the first dollar that they've ever earned. Maybe there is a Bit more ownership when they think of what they've earned. So there may be a different story there. Given your story, that makes sense that if that were someone else's story, it'd be like, I don't know about our compatibility.

[Listener]

Yeah. I can try not to be judgmental in the moment and to be more curious. I like that idea. I wonder, when you do have differences with a partner, which you inevitably will around money, how do you know if those are a deal breaker?

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yeah. You know, some people may value it more than other things where it's like a potential partner's income. How much they make might be a deal breaker, and that's their reason, that's their business. But there are also other things. So it's not just about how much someone makes, but how are they managing their money? How are they communicating about their money? How aware are they? How self aware are they of their relationship to money? How willing are they to be open and communicate about their finances and the plans and the goals that they have? How likely are they to set and achieve a goal? Like, all of these are things that are really important as well. And so different people have different priorities when it comes to money. Again, based on their own experiences, their own money scripts, or, you know, their own desire for safety, stability, connection, belonging, all of those things. But when thinking about a partner, there's a lot of pieces to that puzzle that make up who a person is and how they will show up in a relationship.

[Listener]

Yeah. And then there's also, are you attracted to them? Do you want to smooch them forever? Do you, you know, do you have a similar work ethic?

[Mariel Segarra]

Do they make you laugh?

[Listener]

Do you care about that? Do you want to have intellectual conversations with them? Can. Can you both do that? You know, like, are you spiritually aligned? Does that matter to you? So many other things. It's a wonder anybody partners up at all with all.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yes. All of the stars have to align, or at least a whole bunch of them. The most important ones.

[Listener]

A lot of them do. Yeah.

[Shay Harris Pierre]

Yeah.

[Mariel Segarra]

All right, takeaway three. If you're just starting to date someone and you want to test your financial compatibility, Shay says you can ask direct questions like, what do you value when it comes to money? And how do you manage your money? But if that feels like too much, you could also try a less direct but still insightful question. How did you earn your first dollar? Now, ultimately, it's up to you what your deal breakers are. There are a lot of factors that determine whether you want to keep seeing someone and you have to decide where money falls on that list for you. All right, it's time for a recap. Takeaway 1 Put some words to your money personality and see if you can pin down the roots of it. The four popular money scripts are a good starting point Money Avoidance, Money Status, Money Worship, and money vigilance. Takeaway 2 When you're working through money conflicts with a partner, be clear and honest and check for any assumptions that you've been making about them. Chances are there's a compromise that's aligned with both of your values. And takeaway 3 if you're in the early stages of dating, test your financial compatibility. You can ask questions like, how do you manage your money? What do you value when it comes to money? And how did you earn your first dollar? For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We've got one on how to merge money with a partner and another on working through your emotions and anxieties around money. You can find [e-mail] LifeKit and if you love Life Kit and you want even more, subscribe to our [e-mail] LifeKitnewsletter Also, we love hearing from you, so if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, you can always email us at [e-mail] this episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Grebe. Megan Kane is our supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Taegle, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Patrick Murray. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thanks for listening.

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