Mariel Segarra (2:38)

Maybe on some days those spikes look like sarcasm or anger or defensiveness. Maybe you didn't mean to snap at your partner when you came home from work, but you were in a bad mood. Or maybe they absolutely meant to poke your soft spot when they made that joke at dinner.

James Cordova (2:52)

The closer we are to each other. The more vulnerable we are to each other, the more frequently, mostly inadvertently, mostly by accident, we're going to cause each other a certain amount of pain, right? We frustrate each other. We might disappoint each other. All of those are these little quill moments, right?

Mariel Segarra (3:11)

And that's why the work of maintaining.

James Cordova (3:13)

Intimacy is not for the faint of heart.

Mariel Segarra (3:17)

It requires ongoing effort and vulnerability. And that can be hard and scary, but also so fulfilling. On this episode, Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle talks with James about how to build and maintain emotional intimacy in your romantic relationship. They'll talk about how to infuse your daily routine with intimate moments, how to spend spot when it's time for a relationship reset, and how to know the difference between being intimate and being comfortable. That's after the break.

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Andy Tagle (5:04)

Today we're here to talk about intimacy in our romantic relationships. When you're in a long term relationship especially, it's easy to feel, as you say, comfortable and stable. You're saying that's not the same thing as emotional intimacy. Why not?

James Cordova (5:16)

I was just talking with somebody when I was doing supervision earlier today and we were talking about how couples often find their way into a relationship with each other where they're more orbiting each other than really interwoven with each other. It's a little bit like the earth and the sun. We find this distance that is close but not too close. It's comfortable, it's predictable, it has a Stability to it, but it doesn't have the vibrancy and the vitality of a truly intimate relationship where you can be.

Andy Tagle (5:53)

Living your life together but not be an intimate relationship.

James Cordova (5:56)

Yeah. One of the things that we found in our research is, you know, when we do the relationship checkup with folks, which is like the relationship health equivalent of your regular dental health checkup or your regular physical health checkup. When we do relationship health checkups with folks, one of the things that we ask them about is to tell us what the strengths are, the biggest strengths in their relationship are, and. And to rank order those so they're able to tell us what their most significant strengths are. And for a lot of couples, the things that they identify as their most significant strengths are things that have nothing to do with emotional connection. Like, we're really good at raising our kids together. We're good at managing our finances. We're good at being really supportive of each other's independent activity. And when we see that cluster of strengths, that. That tells us this couple has really found their way into that comfortable distance where we're orbiting each other, we're running the business of a small family together, but we're not. We don't really trust each other with our tenderest parts.

Andy Tagle (7:05)

Takeaway 1. Being close and comfortable is not necessarily the same as sharing emotional intimacy. Do you have a romantic relationship or just a roommate? Is that the place you want to be? According to James, simply making time and space is one of the biggest barriers to everyday intimacy. And bridging that gap starts by understanding where you're at and where your relationship might need some watering.

Andy Tagle (7:34)

You say that attention is the most basic form of love in your book. Why is that?

James Cordova (7:38)

So whatever we're giving attention to is the thing that we're nurturing, the thing that we're growing in our lives. Right. And so it is a form of love. If we're really giving a lot of our attention to our work, you know, we're nurturing, we're growing, we're cultivating the things that we do professionally, and it is a kind of love. And when we're certainly when we're giving each other that attention, right? We're cultivating, we're watering, we're nurturing, we're growing that connection between the two of us. Right. The challenge is that attention is a very narrow beam. We only have so much of it.

James Cordova (8:23)

And we can't be paying attention to everything at the same time. We can pay attention to one thing at a time. And so the place where relationships can really suffer is from the neglect of our attention. And really, one of the simplest things that we can do to begin to nurture connection and intimacy and love is to bring very deliberately, more mindfully, that quality of loving attention to each other.

Andy Tagle (8:57)

I'm glad you said mindful, because I know attention is a principle of mindfulness. Right? Can you explain to me how mindfulness plays a role in intimacy?

James Cordova (9:05)

So mindfulness really just means that we are paying attention on purpose with some intention. I sort of think about, like, the. The lived experience of being mindful is like savoring. If you're really paying attention to something, it has a quality of savoring to it. And what we know from our research, what we know from our own experience, is that when we are being mindfully attentive to what we're eating, what we're touching, what we're looking at, when we're mindfully attentive to the person that we're with, that quality of savoring comes across. And it enhances both our own experience of the sort of vividness, the vitality of that connection of that interaction with the other person. And it's contagious, right? Like, we know we can tell when we're being mindfully attended to, and we can also tell when we're not.

Andy Tagle (10:10)

Takeaway 2. Pay attention to your partner on purpose. Take note of his outfit, her hair, their mood, the playlist they put on as they cook dinner, maybe you'll notice something new and surprising. Maybe you'll appreciate the thing you've always loved just a little bit more. Or if this exercise feels difficult, that's useful information too. Remember how James says we're all porcupines? If you're feeling a lack of intimate connection, he says, sometimes that might be because you're trying to avoid getting poked.

James Cordova (10:44)

When our relationships start to get a little complicated, when we've got that area of conflict that just keeps coming up in a particularly frustrating or painful way. There are so many other things that call to us, like work. You know, I can go to work a little earlier, I can stay a little later. There's the dog, there's the tv, there's my phone. There's the lawn that needs to be mowed. There's all these things that feel like, oh, well, this needs my attention. And again, I think that can happen at a really almost unconscious level. I call it. We follow the path of least emotional resistance. I'm going to go in the direction of the thing that's the least emotionally.

Andy Tagle (11:28)

Complicated Conflict, of course, doesn't often go hand in hand with deep connection, at least when you're in the thick of it. And there are an endless number of reasons why you might be experiencing friction or frustration with your partner.

James Cordova (11:44)

I think the big mistake that people make is, is trying to solve the unsolvable points of friction. Like we find our problems and we just keep trying to solve the problem because usually what we're trying to do is get our partner to change. Like, if you change, then this problem will go away. And of course our partner's going, well, actually I was thinking if you changed, then this problem would go away. And the mistake that's inherent in there is that.

James Cordova (12:15)

Almost always that most significant area of friction in the relationship is the arrow is actually pointing back toward each of our most deepest vulnerability. We're trying to solve a problem like it's an emotional math equation and that actually ends up creating more distance.

Andy Tagle (12:38)

One solution that might be able to help bring you back to intimacy quicker is, is spotting the difference between solvable versus perpetual problems. This is an idea from relationship researcher John Gottman. Solvable problems in relationships are situational and specific. They're one offs, like, who's going to get the car fixed? What are we going to eat for dinner? Why is that always the question? Perpetual problems, on the other hand, center on fundamental differences in personality or outlook or lifestyle. They're not easily solved. And so you keep coming back to them, as in, how should money be saved? Or what does perfect leisure time look like?

James Cordova (13:17)

Introverts and extroverts find each other irresistible and so often end up in relationships with each other and don't really know that they're going to run into this issue until they run into this issue. Right? Like, what are we going to do on a Friday night? I'm tired, I want to socialize. I'm tired. I want to not see anybody else, but maybe you.

Andy Tagle (13:41)

It's the perpetual problems that lead to the majority of relationship issues. So Takeaway three Name it to Tame It Labeling your perpetual patterns can help you ease up on conflict, collaborate, and come back to connection.

James Cordova (13:59)

You know, one of the things that we've, that we found in our research is that when couples are running into these sorts of perpetual patterns in their relationship, more often than not they present a sort of fish and water problem. Like the pattern is having a really strong effect on the relationship, but they can't see it, they just keep enacting it. That moment when you can see it and call it something, you know, like, we're doing our introvert extrovert dance right or we're doing our spend or saver thing right or we're doing our porcupine turtle thing. Whenever you can label a pattern, when you can label a relational habit, it changes it. And the better we are at being able to call a pattern out in that kind of friendly way, the less susceptible we are to the pattern itself. What we found in our research is that couples who can name their pattern engage in the pattern less.

Andy Tagle (14:57)

When Life Kit returns How to build in a daily practice of building emotional intimacy Foreign.

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Andy Tagle (15:38)

Okay, let's get right into Our next takeaway. Takeaway 4. To create an environment where your intimacy can thrive, build it into your daily routine. You don't need a whole lot of time, just a few minutes of dedicated attention and curiosity for your partner.

James Cordova (15:53)

What we've discovered in the research is that it's the regularity of it that we can create these sorts of daily rituals of connection in our relationship. And they don't have to take forever. They can be 5, 10 minutes here and there that are that turning toward right. So it can be just a few minutes in the morning where the thing that's most important to me is being curious about my partner. The thing that's most important to me is making sure that my partner feels seen and cared about because that's really what we're all longing for in our relationships. All that I really want is for my partner to see me, to know me right and to care. She doesn't necessarily have to solve my problems. She doesn't necessarily have to do anything magical. If I know that she knows what's going on in my life and she cares, that's enough. You know, I think that the key is just I'm going to spend five minutes in the morning being really curious about my partner. What's going on for you today? What's in your heart? What's on your mind? What's on your schedule? And maybe five more minutes in the middle of the day and five minutes at the end of the day, like, it doesn't have to be forever, but it has to be that deep, dedicated attention is the most basic form of love. Quality of attention, that is. I just want to know you, and I want you to know that, that I see you, I'm curious about you, and I care.

Andy Tagle (17:30)

And just conversation, like, just like five minutes over your coffee in the morning, like, what's going on with you? Like, yeah, just.

James Cordova (17:36)

Yeah, this is what's going on for me, you know, this is what's popping around in my head. What's popping around in your head? And the more particular things, like what's on your agenda for today? What's the thing that you're most eager about today? What's the thing that you're, like, most dreading today? You know, what's the thing that you're most grateful for? What's the thing that you wish would go away? I kind of want to get a heads up on what are the going to be the highlights and what are going to be the low lights so that I can check up on it later, you know. So how'd that highlight go? Was it actually a highlight or was it a no light? Right. And what about the thing that you were really worried about? How did that thing go? So that, you know, I'm constantly carrying, you know, my partner's experience in my head and in my heart and feeling like. I also know that when I'm going into this meeting that I'm like, oh, my God, I don't want to be in this meeting. I know that my partner knows that I had this meeting today and she's kind of there with me and she's going to ask me about it later. And I know that she cares about, like, how this is for me, even if nobody else does.

Andy Tagle (18:41)

It sounds like you're letting your partner in to your inner world and vice versa.

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Andy Tagle (18:46)

But does intimacy like a daily practice of intimacy? Does it always require conversation? Are there other ways to practice that intimacy with each other? You know, I'm thinking like, you know, not everybody's a big sharer. Not everybody always has time or room for that conversation. Are there other ways to foster intimacy?

James Cordova (19:04)

There are. And I think, you know, part of the way that I very deliberately constructed the way that I think about intimacy so that it doesn't always involve deep conversation. A lot of it is, you know, we get to know each other through our sort of daily habits, our sort of patterns. You know, we start to recognize each other's rhythm. Right? Like, you can tell Your partner's tired and stressed. They don't necessarily have to talk about being tired and stressed. You just know. So you bring them a cup of tea, you rub their shoulders, you rub their feet, right? There's all these ways that we can, in the absence of words, show the other person that I see you and I care. You know, a lot of that is physical. A lot of that, you know, is just like, physical affection, presence. You know, these sorts of, like, offerings. You know, like, if you've had a particularly challenging day, this might be a good day for one of your favorite movies, right? Might not have to say anything about it. It's just like, hey, let's watch this movie tonight, right? And so part of that is like, discovering that about each other. What is my path to that place that, for you, feels like you're a source of safety, you're a source of acceptance, and I can just be my grumpy self and know that you love me anyway.

Andy Tagle (20:25)

Takeaway 5. Intimacy is often as imperfect as it is important. So keep at it. We'll leave you with some final wisdom from James to help.

James Cordova (20:37)

I think maybe it's three things. It's grace, so that we're giving ourselves and each other just a lot of space to be messy and to get it wrong and to just miscommunicate, to say it the wrong way, to use the wrong word, to think it was Wednesday when it was actually Thursday. So there's grace. And then maybe the most important element is just unrelenting kindness, which is like kindness towards ourselves and our own dumpster fire and kindness towards our partner, even when they're misbehaving. And then maybe finally in there again is that kind of loving curiosity. Like, I think one of the most powerful practices that we can engage in with our partner is to prioritize on a regular basis, understanding over being understood. And I think that our instinct is to really fight to be understood and to kind of forget about the seeking to understand part. And if we can flip that regularly, then a lot of the things that otherwise seem, like, unresolvable just start to resolve themselves. So, grace, kindness, and curiosity.

Andy Tagle (22:01)

I think we could all use some more of that. That sounds lovely. I'll take an order. Yeah, I'll take an order of all three of those things. Thank you, James. That's lovely. James Cordova, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

James Cordova (22:12)

Absolutely. Thank you, Andy.

Andy Tagle (22:14)

Let's recap, lovers. Takeaway 1. Being comfortable is not the same as being emotionally intimate. Which one are you takeaway 2 practice paying attention to your partner on purpose. Their voice or clothes or taste or cooking. What new something can you find to appreciate today?

Andy Tagle (22:37)

Takeaway 3 Conflict often gets in the way of intimacy. One way to more easily get back into connection is to understand when you're suffering a perpetual problem, like doing your spender versus Saver routine or your introvert extrovert dance, spotting the pattern can be the first step in helping you break your cycles.

Andy Tagle (22:58)

Create a daily intimacy practice. It doesn't have to take long, just a bit of dedicated time and attention focused solely on your partner. Have a few minutes of pillow talk in the morning, send him a joke and a meme over lunch, or give her a foot rub at the end of the day. Finally. Takeaway 5 Maintaining intimacy is hard work, so whenever possible, grant yourself and your partner some grace, some unrelenting kindness and loving curiosity.

Mariel Segarra (23:30)

That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle hey, you're a fan of Life Kit, right? Well, don't keep us a secret. Why don't you tell a friend about us? Send them an episode you think they'd like, and thank you for helping spread the word about Life Kit. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Garib. Meghan Keane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Serino, Sylvie Douglas, and Lennon Sherburne. Engineering support comes from Stacy Abbott. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thank you for listening.

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