How to work with your social anxiety

Summary

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Life Kit (NPR): How to Work with Your Social Anxiety

Host: Marielle Segarra
Guests: Dr. Ali Mattu (Clinical Psychologist), Dr. Fallon Goodman (Psychologist & Professor, George Washington University)
Reporter: Andy Tagle
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the universally uncomfortable experience of social anxiety. Life Kit host Marielle Segarra and reporter Andy Tagle dig into why social situations can set our nerves on edge—even for the most seemingly confident people—and offer expert-backed, practical tools for managing both everyday social anxiety and more severe social anxiety disorder. Through conversations with psychologist Dr. Fallon Goodman and clinical psychologist Dr. Ali Mattu, the episode aims to demystify social anxiety, encourage listeners to “befriend” it, and provide actionable advice for navigating everything from office parties to high-stakes presentations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Social Anxiety (00:18–04:51)

• Everyday vs. Clinical Social Anxiety:

  • There are two ends of the social anxiety spectrum:
    • General, situational anxiety (dates, presentations, parties)
    • Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) – affects ~13% of Americans
  • Dr. Fallon Goodman (05:50):

    “The first [indicator] is it interfering with the life that you want to live? Is social anxiety interfering with your ability to do your job, relationships, or function?”

• Assessing Your Anxiety:

  • Is your anxiety frequent and intense?
  • Does it persist across interactions, not just high-impact scenarios?
  • Don’t hesitate to seek professional help if it’s overwhelming your life.

• Importance of Social Relationships (07:51):

  • Social connections are vital—missing out can hinder life satisfaction, career, and personal growth.

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2. Takeaway 1: Practice Social Courage—Start Small and Build (07:55–11:36)

• The Concept of ‘Social Courage’:

  • Courage is acting despite discomfort, in service of what you value.
  • Dr. Fallon Goodman (08:14):

    “It’s the willingness to do what you want to do in your social life despite the presence of fear…”

• Strategies to Build Confidence:

  • Identify areas in your life where social interactions are easiest and where they’re hardest (10:09).
  • Start with small social tasks:
    • Choose the cashier over self-checkout
    • Compliment someone’s outfit
    • Send a check-in text
    • Ask for help in a public space

• The Value of Repetition:

  • “The more reps you get in, the more of a social callus you build…” (11:03)

• Embracing Awkwardness:

  • Ali Mattu (11:36):

    “The goal is not to eliminate awkwardness from your life. The goal is to learn how to navigate awkwardness… everything you want… is on the other side of awkwardness.”

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3. Takeaway 2: Before Social Events—Set Goals, Make a Plan, Anticipate Awkwardness (12:00–15:42)

• Set Small, Concrete Goals:

  • Have a simple objective (talk to one person, ask two questions, etc.).
  • Plan your “escape route” if you need a break; having an exit increases confidence (12:32).

• Name Your Fears:

  • Be honest: What’s the worst that could happen (13:18)?
  • Evidence shows the feared disaster almost never comes true.

• Bring Support (if possible):

  • A plus-one can help, but choose someone who’s genuinely supportive.

• Normalize the Weirdness:

  • Ali Mattu (14:21):

    “Every single social interaction has these lulls… it’s not an awkward silence, it’s just a silence. That is the price of connecting with someone.”

• Caution on “Liquid Courage”:

  • Occasional use is okay; relying on alcohol as a crutch can be problematic (15:06).

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4. Takeaway 3: During Social Events—Move the Spotlight Off Yourself (17:50–21:59)

• Shift Your Focus:

  • Social anxiety creates a ‘spotlight effect’ (18:07), making us hyper-aware of ourselves.
  • Flip the attention: focus on your conversation partner.

• Open-Ended Questions & ‘Yes, And...’:

  • Use improv techniques to keep the convo flowing (19:15).
  • Ali Mattu (20:14):

    “The key to social interaction is actually to be interested in the other person… giving your full attention is the greatest thing you can do for someone.”

• Avoid Safety Behaviors:

  • Examples: Staying silent, hiding behind your phone, oversharing.
  • These behaviors can backfire, making others see you as uninterested or distant (20:53).

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5. Takeaway 4: After Social Events—Debrief, Reflect Honestly, and Try Again (22:09–24:51)

• Assess the Reality vs. Your Fears:

  • Did your worst-case scenario happen? If not, you gain confidence (22:22).
  • If it did, objectively evaluate: how much did it really affect you?

• Be Honest and Fair:

  • Ask for honest feedback; don’t sugar-coat or catastrophize (22:40).
  • Look for both what went wrong and what went right (23:44).

• Keep Practicing:

  • One exposure isn’t enough; growth comes from repetition (24:27).
  • Ali Mattu (24:51):

    “The only way to gain confidence is to have gone through some awkward, weird social situations, come out the other side and realize… I survived. I know a little bit more now…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ali Mattu (00:50):

  “It’s kind of like playing a video game on the hard setting.”

• Ali Mattu (01:14):

  “We’re mind readers, where you start to think you know how people are seeing you... and they're judging you. They don't think you're doing a good job.”

• Dr. Fallon Goodman (11:10):

  “Find one person on this planet who has not been rejected. We are rejected and judged all the time… we’re altering our behavior to prevent an outcome that's probably going to happen anyway.”

• Ali Mattu (14:21):

  “It’s not an awkward silence, it’s just a silence. That is the price of connecting with someone.”

• Ali Mattu (20:14):

  “The key to social interaction is actually to be interested in the other person.”

• Fallon Goodman (22:40):

  “Maybe you were really awkward… but you’re breathing, you’re employed, you’re still a member of society.”

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Practical Tools & Tips (Timestamps Referenced)

• [07:55] Practice social courage in small ways daily.
• [12:00] Set specific, measurable goals before your event; voice your fears.
• [17:50] During events, move the focus onto others—use open-ended questions and exercise ‘yes, and…’
• [22:09] After events, honestly assess what happened—learn and re-engage.

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Final Recap (25:13–26:14)

• Everyday social anxiety and Social Anxiety Disorder are different; don't hesitate to seek professional help if needed.
• Exposure, practice, and gentle honesty with yourself are the pathway to progress.
• “Imperfect progress is still progress.”

Resource: For self-assessment and further help: nationalsocialanxietycenter.com

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This summary covers all key concepts and advice presented in the content section of the episode, to provide value for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

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[Mariel Segarra]

You're listening to Life Kit from npr. Hey, it's Marielle. I'd love for you to join me on an uncomfortable journey. We're going to your office holiday party or your high school reunion or that dating mixer that you bought a ticket to. But now that it's getting closer on the calendar, you'd rather do literally anything else. Like I'm talking waiting in line at the DMV or getting a root canal. At least then you wouldn't have to talk to people. The dread creeps up and you find your heart racing just thinking about going to this thing.

[Ali Mattu]

It's kind of like playing a video game on the hard setting where your mind is it sees more threats in.

[Mariel Segarra]

The environment, but rather than dodging a bunch of fireballs or Pac man ghosts, the imposing threat is failure or embarrassment. Ali Mattu is a clinical psychologist, and he says most of us have experienced this nervous energy during a social event, an energy that can make us think.

[Ali Mattu]

We'Re mind readers, where you start to think you know how people are seeing you. You start to believe that you know how people are thinking about you and and they're judging you. They don't think you're doing a good job.

[Mariel Segarra]

Because when the stakes are high or the social terrain is unfamiliar, it's easy.

[Ali Mattu]

To spiral, where you're starting to imagine what's going to happen and you're imagining things are going to go badly.

[Mariel Segarra]

All types of people feel anxious in social settings. The shy guy in class who has to give a big presentation. The person who ruminates about a completely inconsequential text message. The one who panics when they have to send back a plate of food at a restaurant. In those moments, a lot of us want to just crawl into a hole.

[Ali Mattu]

And you can't do that. What you need to do is rethink about social anxiety, being more like this annoying friend. It's a friend that cares about you, that loves you, that also shows up at times where you don't want them to, and they have your best interests at heart.

[Mariel Segarra]

Even though it doesn't feel good, social anxiety, stripped down to its essence, can be a reminder that we need other people in our lives and that we all want to belong.

[Ali Mattu]

So befriend your social anxiety. Don't try to kick it out of your life.

[Mariel Segarra]

On this episode of Life Kit, we're going to help you out with that. Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle talks to Ali and another social anxiety specialist to give you tools for surviving small talk, for staying motivated before and after social interactions, and for embracing the awkwardness.

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[Andy Tagle]

Head into our tips and takeaways party, let's quickly get clear about what kind of social anxiety we're talking about, because there are two different camps. The first camp is what we're going to be addressing in this episode. Those general everyday feelings of anxiousness that we all feel from time to time in social settings like first dates or job interviews or office happy hours. Those are the places where we hope to lend a hand. The second is social anxiety disorder, and it's one of the most common anxiety disorders in the U.S. it affects about 13% of Americans, and there are a lot of treatment options available through trained professionals. If you're not sure which group you fall into, psychologist and professor Fallon Goodman might be able to help. She runs the Emotion and Resilience Lab at George Washington University, and she spent a lot of time researching social anxiety. She says there are a few criteria that may help define whether or not you might want to seek outside counsel or care for your social anxiety.

[Fallon Goodman]

The first Is it interfering with the life that you want to live? So is social anxiety interfering with your ability to do your job? Is it interfering with relationships? Is it interfering with your ability to function, to go out and run errands? I think that's the most important thing, valen says.

[Andy Tagle]

The second thing you want to ask yourself is, how deeply does your anxiety affect you? Does it feel really bad really often?

[Fallon Goodman]

So this is the distress. Is it feeling like every day you're carrying around this bag of anxiety that's really weighing you down and making you feel uncomfortable in situations that ordinarily wouldn't?

[Andy Tagle]

So meeting new people, public presentations, big social gatherings, these are all commonplace areas for social anxiety to spike.

[Fallon Goodman]

Now, if you're feeling those similar levels of anxiety across interactions with family members, across interactions with co workers and strangers, and across areas you're feeling that level of social anxiety, that might be a sign that we're moving from a relatively normal level of social anxiety to something that's more clinically significant.

[Andy Tagle]

If any of that resonates, Fallon says it's important not to wait to seek help, because just deciding to opt out of social activities now and then might not seem like that big a deal. But if you're constantly experiencing an intense fear of being scrutinized by others, it can have real ripple effects in nearly every area of your life.

[Fallon Goodman]

In our career, for instance, I might be socially anxious, and so I am not doing things that would advance my career, whether it's speaking up at a meeting or taking a new position. If I have social anxiety, I'm not going to go on that date, even though I'm really, really lonely and I really want to find my person. If I have social anxiety, I might not join the softball league, and I'm missing out on something that I get a lot of joy at in and that feels good in my body. And so we stand to lose a lot.

[Andy Tagle]

So now that we've made those lines clear, let's move on to what both camps have in common.

[Fallon Goodman]

The power of social relationships cannot be understated.

[Andy Tagle]

So let's talk tools to deal with those general pre party jitters. Takeaway 1 Focus your social energy. Start small and keep building. So Fallon has this idea about social courage. As the name implies, it's the willingness to do what you want to do in your social life despite the presence.

[Fallon Goodman]

Of fear, despite any level of of anxiety, whether it's a one to a ten. You are doing the thing you want to do. And being courageous in doing that is knowing that it is worth the risk of any sort of negative consequence because it's something that you value.

[Andy Tagle]

That sounds great on paper. And it's simple enough. Don't let your fears hold you back. Right, but how do we get there exactly? Let's start by addressing that fear head on. Maybe what you're anxious about is a big social gathering just down the way, a family or school reunion, say, with lots of people and lots of judgmental eyes. Maybe that fear is telling you, let's just stay home instead.

[Fallon Goodman]

The thing about anxiety is in the short term, it feels really good not to encounter the thing you're anxious about.

[Andy Tagle]

And Fallon says, actually, sometimes avoiding a social situation, like if you feel truly unsafe maybe, or unvalued, can in fact be the best strategy. But you also gotta be honest with yourself. Flip the script in your mind and look for the upside too.

[Fallon Goodman]

I think it's important to ask yourself, what are the costs of not going? What are the missed opportunities of not attending this event? Does that avoidance get in the way of things that are important to you and things that can really push you outside of your comfort zone in a way that's going to move you closer to the person that you want to be.

[Andy Tagle]

Okay, so like, people might have thoughts about you if you show up to the reunion, sure. But is that your problem? Besides, if you go, you could also see your favorite teacher again, or that faraway cousin you spent time with half a decade ago. Eat that favorite food. Maybe you'll get to reconnect with your old bestie. That all sounds pretty good. Now that we've decided the juice is worth the squeeze, let's work on building up that confidence and courage.

[Fallon Goodman]

What I would challenge everyone to do is across areas. Ask yourself, what do I need? And what do I have?

[Andy Tagle]

Think about your different social buckets. Your love life, the office, the neighborhood, your family, what comes easy and what needs work. Then look for regular opportunities to get you from where you are to where you want to be that could mean starting really small, like choosing the cashier line instead of self checkout to get in a little social interaction at the grocery store, complimenting a stranger's outfit, sending a spontaneous check in text to an old, old friend, or maybe just asking for help at the library. And just keep building that social infrastructure into your calendar on a regular basis.

[Fallon Goodman]

It feels really effortful to make plans to find a time to meet. So if I don't have social interactions built into my daily structure, let's say in classes or at work, then I have to take time out of the other parts of my life to socialize. And I think this is where people can feel like it's not worth it.

[Andy Tagle]

The more reps you get in, the more of a social callus you build and the more comfortable you can be with being uncomfortable.

[Fallon Goodman]

You know, the thing about social anxiety is we're fearing what is going to happen. Find one person on this planet who has not been rejected. We are rejected and judged all of the time. And so we are altering our behavior to trying to prevent an outcome that's probably going to happen anyway.

[Andy Tagle]

Because that cringe factor, that awkwardness, it comes with this territory.

[Ali Mattu]

The goal is not to eliminate awkwardness from your life. The goal is to learn how to navigate awkwardness. Because everything you want, every connection you want, the friend you want to make, the person you want to date, the work opportunities you want to gain, they're all on the other side of awkwardness.

[Andy Tagle]

Now that you've warmed up, you've focused in, built up that social courage, it's time to move to the main event. Let's lay out some tools to help you go from anxious to courageous before, during and after a social activity takeaway. 2. Before you go, make a game plan and be ready to embrace the awkward. All right, friend, it's reunion time. You've got your killer outfit on. You know where you're headed. Next up. To ease your anxiety up front, set a small realistic goal for yourself.

[Fallon Goodman]

So if you're going to a happy hour, set something very specific. Introduce yourself to one person, talk to three people, ask two questions, something that you feel like you know whether or not you achieved it. You also want to make a game plan. And it's okay, by the way, if your game plan includes when and how am I getting out of here? What is my escape plan? Have a plan so you feel a sense of certainty, so you give yourself some out if you want to leave and that you know what you're getting yourself into.

[Andy Tagle]

Another helpful pre Party task is to identify your biggest fear. Like, truly, what is the worst thing that could happen at this barbecue? If you show up to this club meeting or networking hour or volunteering session, what realistically could go wrong?

[Fallon Goodman]

And be specific. Are you fearful that you're gonna spill your wine on your shirt? Are you fearful that you're gonna stutter? Are you fearful that you're gonna say something stupid? Are you fearful you're gonna get fired? Identify your biggest fear. What will happen is most of the time the fear does not come true.

[Andy Tagle]

Having small concrete goals can help buoy you when you feel adrift in a conversation. And voicing your most outlandish fears ahead of time can make the real life people in front of you seem not quite so scary. Then if you have the option to bring a plus one with you, that might not be a bad idea either. Just be sure to choose someone who will, you know, actually support you rather than just say socially, silo you in one corner of the party with a chip bowl or feed your anxieties by, for instance, pushing you into the center of the dance circle. Now, if you're off to socialize alone, good on you, friend. Ali says again, don't forget, it is completely natural it is on the agenda for it to be a little weird when you first meet someone. Repeat that to yourself like a mantra if it helps.

[Ali Mattu]

Every single social interaction has these lulls. My patients always call it, you know, awkward silences. And I am fast to say, like, it's not an awkward silence, it's just a silence. That is the price of connecting with someone. It's saying the wrong thing, it's messing up, it's mishearing someone. It's things aren't connecting at first, but you stick with it and you find out who are the people that you want to connect with and have fun with and you learn more. And who are the people that you don't really connect with? The only way to do that is by trying and experimenting. The cost of social interaction is awkwardness is cringe.

[Andy Tagle]

Oh, and one last thing to note before you head out.

[Fallon Goodman]

We've all heard of Liquid Courage, where when we're at a social interaction, we might drink one or two or three drinks and we feel a little bit less anxious.

[Andy Tagle]

In the short term, of course, this can be really effective. Maybe you feel a little more confident so you have more fun, meet a new friend, even strike up a new romance. Valen says if that's just a one off situation, an isolated incident, sure, okay.

[Fallon Goodman]

But if that's going to be something that you rely on. That's increasingly problematic where you feel like you can only have those good social interactions if you have some sort of substance like alcohol.

[Andy Tagle]

In fact, social anxiety disorder is highly comorbid with both alcohol use disorder and depression. Not to mention just physiologically speaking, alcohol itself can be a source of increased anxiety. No matter what's in your punch bowl, remember, it's probably not all going to be smooth sailing, but you'll be okay, either because you'll have a great time or because you'll gain some new data you can use for the next go round. So take a few deep breaths, then take a few more. Whenever you're ready, remind yourself of your motivation one last time. And then when we get back from the break, let's head into our event. Party people.

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[Andy Tagle]

Do better during social events by moving the spotlight off of yourself, Fallon says. When we're trying to engage in conversation, our social anxiety can sometimes create this spotlight effect where we feel like all the lights are shining brighter on us than anyone else in the room. We can get hyper self aware and.

[Fallon Goodman]

I'm looking for things like eye contact and body language and the subtleties of the way you're talking to me and expressing, expressing yourself. I am more focused on me. How am I sounding? What am I saying? Am I acting foolish? Do I sound incompetent? Do I sound unintelligent the trouble with.

[Andy Tagle]

This of course, is when you're locked in on yourself and your performance of a conversation instead of just actual conversation, it can become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Fallon Goodman]

And so the more socially anxious I am in a situation, the more likely it is that the thing I don't want in this case rejection is going to come true.

[Andy Tagle]

Luckily, the fix can be pretty simple. Just take that great big spotlight and focus it on the person you're talking to instead. Maybe you came to the party with a few conversation topics in your back pocket, ready to go. If not, asking open ended questions is one of the easiest ways to do that. Like asking what do you like to do for fun can take a conversation a lot more places than so, do you like video games? From there, one of Ali's favorite conversational tools is an improv skill called yes.

[Ali Mattu]

And where you don't shut down what the other person is saying, you build on it. And so the way that impacts social interaction is yes and requires you to actually listen.

[Andy Tagle]

So if you commit to building on whatever the person in front of you is saying, it can force you to be fully present in the conversation rather than stuck in your own head.

[Ali Mattu]

So if you use an open ended question, what do you like to do for fun? And the person goes, oh, I like rock climbing. A lot of people then will be like, oh my gosh, I don't know anything about it. What am I going to say? What am I going to say that social anxiety kicks up? Yes. And it, oh, rock climbing, wow. Can you tell me more about that? I know nothing about rock climbing. What is that like? You know what people like to do? They like talking about the things that they like doing and then that, that leads to a whole other conversation. Right.

[Andy Tagle]

It might seem like a simple strategy, but giving your conversation partner the opportunity to lead and then following along as they shine can go a long way.

[Ali Mattu]

So many of us are trying to be interesting when the key to social interaction is actually to be interested in the other person. All of us are stuck in our own head and we're just really looking for someone who's actually going to be there and listen to us and give us their full attention, it's like it is the greatest thing that you can do for someone is to give them your full attention.

[Andy Tagle]

Now, when it comes to things to avoid, let's talk safety behaviors, those things that we do in social settings to help us feel more secure, but actually probably increase our chances of being rejected.

[Fallon Goodman]

So a safety behavior could be, I'm not going to say very much. I'm not going to speak up. I'm going to take the safe route and fly under the radar and not offer my contributions because. Because if I do, I might be rejected. People might think I'm stupid or unattractive or whatever your thing is, you're not going to be good enough in some way and so you don't say anything. Well, if you're not speaking up in a conversation, some people might think you're not interested in them. You're being cold. Maybe they think you're arrogant. Maybe they think you just don't want to be there.

[Andy Tagle]

Another big safety behavior I'd bet the vast majority of us are guilty of these days. Looking at your phone, like, not even pretending to text or talk or do anything with it, just looking.

[Fallon Goodman]

And then again, what are other people perceiving that as you not being interested in getting to know them? And they therefore might be more likely to reject you as a result.

[Andy Tagle]

You might also be on the other side of the scale, like me, and prone to quelling your anxious energy by oversharing. Valen says, in general, disclosing things about yourself can create closeness. But, like, try to read the room. You're trying to be social, not host your own podcast.

[Fallon Goodman]

If you're feeling that desire to talk about yourself, you can flip it and get the other person to start talking about themselves so that the vulnerability and the intimacy building is going both ways.

[Andy Tagle]

Yes. And if you do that, hopefully you can't go too far astray. But either way, it's important to assess. That brings us to takeaway 4 debrief, then jump right back in.

[Fallon Goodman]

You want to first determine did your biggest fear come true. If no, then you have more evidence that you can go into that type of interaction and it be okay. And if that thing did come true, then you can figure out how to deal with it. You can ask yourself, how did my life really change?

[Andy Tagle]

The most important part of a debrief, according to Fallon, brutal honesty.

[Fallon Goodman]

Maybe you were really awkward. And you ask your friend who was with you and they say, yeah, like, that was like a kind of awkward thing you said. And I don't think that you're gonna get hired. You know, like, we want, we. We don't want to lie to ourselves. I, I think this is one. A misconception of, about doing any sort of anxiety work is you try to convince yourself it's not there. You convince yourself it wasn't that bad. Let's start with the place of how.

[Andy Tagle]

Did I do Maybe that joke didn't quite land. Maybe that compliment came off a lot more sarcastic than sincere. Maybe you really misunderstood the dress code. And yet you're breathing, you're employed, you're still a member of society. You didn't get booed out of the room or chased out of town with pitchforks. Make sure to let that sink in. And then be sure to be fair to yourself and look for the good too. Like you didn't spill a single thing on your clothes and you seem to really hit it off with that rock climber.

[Fallon Goodman]

There's going to be very few instances where you're, you're going to get everything wrong or everything right. If we deconstruct a social interaction, there's going to be things across the spectrum of good, bad, and in between.

[Andy Tagle]

Then use that assessment to create new goals for improvement. Like maybe one or two conversations felt okay, but most still left you sweating. Just like anything else, social blunders, conversational pivots only get better with practice.

[Fallon Goodman]

So if I forget what I'm about to say and I sort of black out, I don't just stop and pause and panic. I can instead keep rolling with it because I'm not assuming that what just happened is going to be catastrophic.

[Andy Tagle]

So Valen says the best thing you can do for yourself is get right back on that horse.

[Fallon Goodman]

If you want to get rid of anxiety, one exposure. Doing something scary once is not going to do it. In fact, that could just reinforce your fear fears. You want to make a plan moving forward. How am I going to keep tackling my social anxiety across a variety of different types of social interactions?

[Andy Tagle]

And don't forget, imperfect progress is still progress. So give yourself some credit.

[Ali Mattu]

The only way to gain confidence is to have gone through some awkward, weird social situations, come out the other side and realize that was weird. That was awkward. I survived. I know a little bit more now of how to deal with that kind of situation and I'll be able to work forward.

[Andy Tagle]

Okay, let's recap. First off, let's note there's a difference between general everyday social anxiety and social anxiety disorder. If you feel like your social anxiety is heavier than most, don't hesitate to seek the help of a professional. If you're looking for a place to start, you could try nationalsocialanxietycenter.com they offer a free self scoring social anxiety assessment takeaway. 1. Practice social courage in small ways on a regular basis. Chat up your cashier. Get to know your local barista. When you adore a stranger's shoes on the subway, say so. Takeaway 2 Before social activity, make small, specific goals that can keep you grounded and help you measure success and speak your fears out loud. It'll make them less scary. Takeaway 3 Do your best to be present during social events by removing the focus from yourself. Attention is the best gift we can offer to just about anyone. Takeaway 4 Once you've survived a social function, take an honest assessment of how you did the good, the bad, the ugly. Use that data to make new goals, then jump right back in.

[Mariel Segarra]

That was reporter Andy Taegle. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We also have one on how to cut back on drinking and another on how to cook a turkey for Thanksgiving. And we love hearing from you. So if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email [e-mail] this episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Serino and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Gilly Moon. Fact Checking by Tyler Jones I'm Mariel Segarra.

[Andy Tagle]

Thanks for listening.

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