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- [00:00]
Capital One Announcer
This message comes from Capital One with the Venture X card. Earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy, plus get premium benefits at a collection of hotels when booking through Capital One Travel. What's in your wallet? Terms Apply details@capital1.com Hey, it's Marielle.
- [00:20]
Marielle Segarra
It's kind of hard to find your next favorite podcast besides Life Kit, of course. But after you're done listening to our three episodes a week, if you want to switch it up, you can check out NPR's pod club news. Sign up and you'll get fresh podcast recommendations every week, hand picked by the people that live for this stuff. You can subscribe for free using the link in today's show notes or@npr.org podclub. You're listening to Life Kit from NPR. Hey, it's Marielle. Raise your hand if you've heard one of these sayings. Don't be a quitter. Winners never quit and quitters never win. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
- [01:10]
Annie Duke
There's all this stuff around quitting that makes it seem cowardly.
- [01:14]
Marielle Segarra
This is Annie Duke, a cognitive psychologist, decision strategist and a former professional poker player. She wrote a book called Quit and she says we tend to think about quitting as a failure, even though it's not failure.
- [01:27]
Annie Duke
If you're doing it in a situation where you ought to be walking away.
- [01:30]
Marielle Segarra
That'S a success because you've stopped spinning your wheels or wasting your time and you get to go do that you'll enjoy more or that bring more value to your life. But how do you know when it's one of those situations, when it is time to walk away? Or as Angela Duckworth puts it, when to grit and when to quit. Angela is a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania. She pioneered academic research on grit, which she defines as a mix of passion and perseverance that allows people to achieve their long term goals.
- [02:03]
Angela Duckworth
It has to be that sometimes it is better to quit. It's not that 100% of the time we should persist, right?
- [02:10]
Marielle Segarra
Angela knows a mountain climber who has scaled some of the highest peaks in the world.
- [02:15]
Angela Duckworth
And one of the things that he and other people like him have said is that one of the most important things to know as a mountaineer is when you should turn back from the summit before you've reached it.
- [02:27]
Marielle Segarra
On this episode of Life kit, how to know when to quit. Something that could be a career path, your pursuit of a particular goal, a relationship. It could be lots of things. We're going to give you the tools to evaluate your goals and figure out what they're costing you and whether it's worth persisting. Foreign.
- [03:01]
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This message comes from Progressive Insurance Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Indeed. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. Indeed's Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored Jobs. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com sponsored terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and subscribe@schwab.com podcast or wherever you listen. This message comes from Apple Card did you know Apple Card is designed to help you pay off your balance faster with smart payment suggestions? And because fees don't help you, Apple Card doesn't have any. It's a credit card unlike any other subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025. Terms and more@applecart.com when we were in.
- [04:56]
Marielle Segarra
The studio, Annie Duke, the cognitive psychologist, posed a question to me. Feel free to play along here.
- [05:02]
Annie Duke
I want you to imagine what's a band? Tell me a band that you like.
- [05:09]
Marielle Segarra
I said. Olivia Dean, the neo soul singer. So Annie tells me, imagine Olivia Dean is coming to town. She's doing an outdoor concert in Central Park. Do I want to go? Yeah. But then the day of the concert I actually don't have a ticket yet. And there's a freak weather event and.
- [05:28]
Annie Duke
It'S like sleeting, inhaling icy rain. Freezing cold. It's like 15 degrees out. It's so cold and there's no cover. Like they're not moving inside. It's still going to be outside. And I call you up and I'm like, hey, I know you like Olivia Dean. I bought a ticket to go to this concert. I won't go because of the weather, but do you want my free ticket?
- [05:53]
Marielle Segarra
No. No. Now she says, imagine same situation. Olivia Dean is coming to town and doing an outdoor concert. But I did buy a ticket, and it cost me 500 bucks.
- [06:04]
Annie Duke
Are you still so sure that you're not going?
- [06:06]
Marielle Segarra
No, I'd probably consider it more, right? I'd probably be like, oh, well, I could wear, like, a snowsuit, I guess.
- [06:13]
Annie Duke
Yeah, because you don't want to waste the 500, right? But you already spent it.
- [06:19]
Marielle Segarra
The point is, I said I didn't want to go to the concert when it was free because I'd made the calculation that it wasn't worth the misery of standing in that weather. In the second scenario, the fact that I'd already spent $500 shouldn't have changed that. But our brains are funny that way. By the way, this is a concept known in economics as the sunk cost fallacy. The fallacy is thinking you should stick with something just because you've already put a lot of money or time or effort into it. Stated another way, and I'm pretty sure I saw this on a quote card on social media, if you dig a hole in the wrong place, digging deeper is not going to help. So how do we know if we're digging in the right place? The fact that you're seriously thinking about quitting is a sign in itself. Annie has talked to a lot of people about quitting, and she hasn't met many adults who say they quit something too soon. Usually they say they stuck around with something or someone far past that situation's expiration date.
- [07:20]
Annie Duke
Adults always feel like they quit too late, and what that means is that you're quitting too late.
- [07:25]
Marielle Segarra
Again. Our culture defines quitting as a failure, which means we're biased against it. So Annie says when the thought of quitting comes into your mind, especially repeatedly, you should take that thought seriously and set a deadline. Let's say your goal is to have a second child. You've had trouble conceiving, so you tried IVF in vitro fertilization. You've gone through several rounds, your body hurts, you're mentally and emotionally exhausted, and you're too tired to spend quality time with the kid you have. You don't know if you should keep going. She says, start with that deadline.
- [07:58]
Annie Duke
It could be, I'm okay trying for another year. It could be, I'm okay investing this much more money in this. It could be, I'm okay giving it two more cycles or three more cycles. But you have to have a deadline and you have to figure out what that deadline is for you.
- [08:18]
Marielle Segarra
A deadline gives you time to come up with a plan and build an off ramp if you need it. For instance, if you want to quit your job but can't afford to, you can start pursuing other work or other careers while you're in your current position. A deadline also gives you a chance to ask yourself some important questions. And that's takeaway. 2. Interrogate your goal, put it under the microscope. One of the questions you'll want to ask yourself is, why do I want this thing? Colin Rocker is the founder of for the Firsts, a meetup club for first generation professionals. He also started a career education platform at Career that teaches those professionals how to navigate a workplace that wasn't created with them in mind. And he quit something about a year ago. He quit the pursuit of a corporate 9 to 5 job and started his own business. Now, Colin had never wanted to be a business owner. His dad was an entrepreneur. He owned a plumbing business. And it was not easy.
- [09:17]
Colin Rocker
We got evicted and we had all these other financial troubles. And that's what I associated a lot of pain with, running your own business, which wasn't exactly unfounded. But it drove me into pursue a more traditional career for myself that was corporate and more and more white collar.
- [09:32]
Marielle Segarra
But then last year, Colin lost his job, which kind of poked a hole in his logic that a 9 to 5 gig was a guarantee of financial stability. And at that moment he also realized he was pursuing this career path for another reason.
- [09:46]
Colin Rocker
I was chasing a certain idea of how I wanted to be perceived. And I wanted to be perceived as successful. I wanted to be perceived as somewhat powerful and influential in some ways. And I thought that if I could stack the right mix of titles and salaries and company names on a LinkedIn profile or on a resume, I would somehow not even really feel whole, but just be perceived as someone who had gone out and made something for themselves. Um, and I wanted that perception of significance.
- [10:18]
Marielle Segarra
So Colon's advice for you is to think about why you are on a particular path, be honest with yourself and ask, are you the same person who set this goal?
- [10:28]
Colin Rocker
A lot of times people go about certain things, whether this is joining a sports team, declaring a certain major, starting a relationship, starting a job or career path, and they get further down the line and the original intention for whatever reason has now completely fallen to the wayside and they're doing something more out of inertia than intention.
- [10:50]
Marielle Segarra
Another question to ask yourself is, who are you afraid of disappointing if you quit this thing? That could be a parent or a coach, a professor or a group of friends, a partner.
- [11:01]
Colin Rocker
People come to me sometimes for career advice, right, Which I'm always happy to give. And they explain this whole situation where they're clearly, clearly, clearly not passionate about what they're doing for work. They don't want to continue doing it, but they feel drawn to it, or they feel like they have to do it because of someone else's perception of them or what it means to someone else.
- [11:21]
Marielle Segarra
On that note, another important question when you're thinking about quitting something is how passionate am I about this goal? Angela Duckworth, who studies grit, defines it as the combination of perseverance and passion for long term goals. And she says the passion part is really important because, yeah, if you want to reach a goal, you've got to be deliberate. You've got to put in the reps.
- [11:44]
Angela Duckworth
But what are you putting the reps in about? I mean, what are you practicing? It should be something that grabs your attention without your forcing your attention to that object.
- [11:56]
Marielle Segarra
In her classes, Angela will tell students, grit is about working hard. But before you get working hard, I want you to learn to choose easy.
- [12:04]
Angela Duckworth
I want you to choose to do something with your life, starting today, that spontaneously grabs your attention, puts you into the flow state. I want you to do something where you feel this resonance with, like, who you are when you are at your best, your personal values, if you can help it.
- [12:23]
Marielle Segarra
Don't choose a career or a hobby or a lifestyle or a path where you're gonna be hating every moment.
- [12:29]
Angela Duckworth
Choose things where you're like, what? I get to think about this, I get to talk about this, I get to hang out with people who wanna do this. And by the way, when I do this, I really feel in some moral way that this is my best self that I can give to the world.
- [12:47]
Marielle Segarra
Okay, one more question to ask yourself as you decide whether to quit something. Is this goal realistic? Takeaway three is to gather the data about your goal. Depending on the goal, Annie Duke says there are different ways to gather data and figure out your individual chance of success. Let's say you're 15 and you want to be a pro skateboarder.
- [13:08]
Annie Duke
I can actually look and say, when I look at people who have made the pros, where were they at 15 or where were they after the amount of practice and coaching and so on, so forth that we have actually put into this up to this point.
- [13:26]
Marielle Segarra
Or if we take the IVF example, your fertility clinic could provide stats on how likely success is at your age. And given your situation, then you can decide for yourself, what is my appetite for risk?
- [13:39]
Annie Duke
Am I okay if I have a 10% chance? Am I only okay if I have a 50% chance? Am I only okay, if I have an 80% chance?
- [13:47]
Marielle Segarra
You also want to figure out what this goal is costing you. How much money are you spending in pursuit of this dream or this path? Is it affecting your health? Are you miserable? Are you unable to sleep?
- [14:02]
Colin Rocker
I can't tell you the amount of times I've shown up to jobs that I ended up leaving where I could feel the tightness in my chest. I've lost hair. I've grown gray hairs.
- [14:12]
Marielle Segarra
Also, think about what else you could be doing with your time. This is another concept from economics called opportunity cost.
- [14:19]
Angela Duckworth
It's always a question of, like, could I be doing something better other than applying to vet school again? You know, going through another IVF cycle trying to get that interview or that internship, it's invisible. It's like the thing that you're not doing, so it's not the center of your attention.
- [14:37]
Marielle Segarra
So think about what quitting could free you up to do and really allow yourself to daydream.
- [14:42]
Colin Rocker
It's like making way for new growth. If you think about, like, you know, a garden or maybe your plate at a buffet, right? It's like, if you have too much stuff going on, there's no room for anything new to come into your life. And so I found that when I created that space, it allowed other things to come into my life, like my role now as a father, even starting the community and all these other beautiful things I've been able to do. There just wasn't a lot of space for that in the life I was living.
- [15:07]
Marielle Segarra
Okay, takeaway four. If you're thinking about quitting something and you're still stuck, ask a couple people you trust. Should I keep doing this? Annie says, we've all been in situations where we look at someone else. You know, they're in a relationship or they're in a job or they're pursuing something, and we're thinking, what are you doing?
- [15:27]
Annie Duke
They're coming and complaining to you. And, like, I hate my partner and I want to leave. And then you see them six months later, and you're like, so how's that going? And they haven't done anything about it. And you're like, man, they should really just quit.
- [15:39]
Marielle Segarra
The reason we can be so level Headed in these situations, Annie says, is that we don't carry around all the baggage they do. We're not carrying around their sunk costs. All the time they've invested in this relationship or career path or whatever else.
- [15:53]
Annie Duke
So you can see that situation much more clearly than they can. So guess what? Other people can see your situation more clearly than you can.
- [16:05]
Marielle Segarra
So the advice here recruit other people to help you. Mentors, peers, friends. Angela is currently writing her second book and ironically, she has really wanted to quit at times. So she asked her husband and a couple of close friends, should I? They say, no, keep going. But she says, if everybody's telling you.
- [16:25]
Angela Duckworth
The opposite, when there is a chorus of people who care about you and know you, who say, I think you should give up and do something more valuable than with your time, you know, I think you should listen when you.
- [16:38]
Marielle Segarra
Talk to these trusted advisors, Annie says, make sure you tell them, be honest with me. Tell me what I need to hear, not what you think I want to.
- [16:47]
Annie Duke
Hear because I want to know the truth for myself because I care about, you know, if you're 22, I care about 32 year old me. I don't care about whether you think you're hurting my feelings right now.
- [16:58]
Marielle Segarra
So big picture here. We're not saying you should quit that thing that only you can decide. But we would love it if you gave yourself permission to quit things in general when that's the right choice for you and to make space for whatever's next, to give yourself the opportunity to bloom.
- [17:16]
Colin Rocker
It felt for me like a smaller existence before I had quit this identity that wasn't necessarily serving me in every way it could. But I feel like a much more filled up person and I feel like I'm showing up better for my friends. I'm showing up better for my family and in my work because I feel more fulfilled by it.
- [17:33]
Marielle Segarra
Okay, time for a recap. Takeaway 1. Given our culture's bias against quitting and the way people act like quitting equals failure, the fact that you're still thinking about it is something to take seriously. You may not be ready to quit today, but set yourself a deadline to make the decision. Takeaway 2. Interrogate your current path or goal. Ask questions like, why do I want to do this thing? Or why am I doing this? Am I the same person who set this goal? Am I just sticking with this because I'm afraid to disappoint my parents or my partner or someone else? Am I passionate about this goal and is this goal realistic? Takeaway 3. Gather the data, figure out your likelihood of success and whether you're comfortable with that. Also, think about what pursuing this goal is costing you in terms of time, money, spending time, stress and opportunity cost. That's all the stuff you're not doing because you are doing this. And takeaway four if you're thinking about quitting something and you're still stuck, ask a couple people you trust for their opinion. One more tip from Annie Duke before we go. From now on, when you set goals, make a list of unlesses.
- [18:47]
Annie Duke
So what that means is that I'm going to go for this thing.
- [18:51]
Marielle Segarra
Unless I'm going to try to be a pro skateboarder, unless I keep getting seriously injured, I'm going to try to have another kid this year. Unless I lose my job. I'm going to join the circus. Unless I don't love it anymore. Think of this like a little contract with yourself that could make it easier to quit when the moment is right. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We've got one on how to focus your attention and another on how to make resolutions you will keep. You can find those@npr.org LifeKit and if you love Life Kit and want more, subscribe to our newsletter@npr.org LifeKitnewsletter Also, if you have episode ideas or you just want to say something nice to us, email us@lifekitpr.org this episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Grebe. Meghan Keane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagle, Claire Marie Schneider and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Robert Rodriguez. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thanks for listening.
- [20:09]
Angela Duckworth
Foreign.
- [20:15]
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- [20:30]
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- [20:49]
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