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- [00:00]
A
Evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest. I'm Jen Chavez. Listen to the Evergreen Podcast from OPB every Monday, part of the NPR Network. You're listening to Life Kit from npr. Hey, it's Marielle. Have you ever wanted to publish a book? Fiction, Nonfiction, A mystery, a thriller, Maybe a romance novel? That's what my friend Alexi wants to do.
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B
I really want to start a new genre of, like, financial romantasy. So I've been pushing us to try to get into the game by, like, writing 50 Shades of Green as, like, Planet Money's new kind of entrance into this world.
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A
This, by the way, is Alexi Horowitz Ghazi, co host of the NPR podcast Planet Money. Now, not only do I want to read this, but I also think Alexei can make it happen because he's become something of an expert on book publishing. Planet Money just published a book called Planet Money, a guide to the economic forces that shape your life. It's packed with narrative stories that'll help you understand things like how banks really work and why our money is worth less every year.
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B
And as part of that, I kind of was voluntold to go explore how it actually got made and what it told us about the publishing world and how books get made in this day and age.
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A
He learned a lot, and he's sharing it with us on this episode of Life Kit, how to get a book published. Among other things, we'll talk about coming up with a book proposal, landing an agent, and understanding where your book fits in the marketplace. Because while you're probably making something you care about and you may consider it a piece of art, you are also trying to sell it.
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B
The book market is extremely competitive. There are tens of thousands of new books published traditionally every year. Bookstores and booksellers themselves can only stock a fraction of those. So you have to be thinking about this with a business sense as well.
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A
That's coming up after the break. So if you do have a book idea and you want to try to get it published, where would you even start?
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B
Okay, so when we talk about publishing, we're usually talking about kind of traditional publishing. That's what's happened to the majority of the books that you're seeing in an independent bookstore or an airport bookstore. And for that, it's kind of useful to think of the publishing industry as this giant machine or supply chain. It begins with the authors who come up with the book ideas for fiction or nonfiction. And then it moves through this chain to book agents, then to book editors, and then the publishers who kind of work to design and actually manufacture the book, to get it out to bookstores, and then to publicize it to the world and get it sold. But the whole process of kind of getting your book published and sent out to the world begins with the agent.
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A
And what is an agent? What is a literary agent? What do they do?
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B
Yeah. So you can think of a literary agent a little bit like a yenta or a matchmaker. I spoke to this agent, Aaliyah Hannah Habib. She's a literary agent. She represents a bunch of famous writers, and she just wrote a new book about how to build a nonfiction writing career. It's called Take it from Me.
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C
A matchmaker is a good way to think about the job. Usually in a movie, the matchmaker might fix up the person they're trying to matchmaker and be like, I think of, like, the movie Clueless, where our heroine is like, okay, we're gonna kind of give you a makeover and then introduce you to the guy. So an agent kind of does that too, where you're thinking of the target audience, but you're also thinking, okay, how can I present this person in the best way possible to. To get them the best match?
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A
I love the makeover idea.
- [03:41]
B
I know. And, like, the best match in this world is gonna depend on what kind of book you actually wanna write. So let's take nonfiction to start. You know, memoir or reportage or history or whatever else. If you're writing nonfiction, an agent's going to help you develop the idea for your book and turn it into a book proposal. Proposals are the way nonfiction book ideas are bought and sold on the market. And Aaliyah says you can think of the proposal as both a blueprint for the book you're gonna write and also as a kind of pitch, like sales document to PERS publishers that this would be a savvy investment for them.
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C
You're making the case for why you are the person to write it. You're explaining how the book will be organized, and you're giving lots of sample material, giving us a sense of how the book will read. And a good book proposal is an engaging read.
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B
So a nonfiction proposal is often around, like, 40 pages, and it might have a sample chapter, a sort of outline of the structure of the book, and, like, a research plan to get it done. You'll also make a case, like, comparing your potential book to other comparable titles in the same catego and kind of demonstrating who you think will be the actual audience who's going to actually buy it.
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A
And how do you find an agent?
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B
There are a couple ways you can try to get onto an agent's radar. The first is to go out and do some detective work. Aaliyah told me you want to go out and find an agent who has represented work like yours in the past and then pitch them on your book idea. And she calls this first part of the process literary sleuthing.
- [05:06]
C
Make a big pile of 10 books that have been published in the past 10 years that are roughly in the same category as your book. In the acknowledgments section, almost always the writer will thank their agent. And that's a way to build a list of agents who might be good targets for your own book.
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A
Super resourceful.
- [05:23]
B
Totally. She's putting on her investigative journalism hat. We love that. The next step, once you have this list of agents you think might be good, is you then continue to do your sleuthing. You go find their emails or social media handles online, and then you're gonna send them what is called a query letter, where you introduce yourself and your idea for your book. And you wanna keep this letter short and to. There are all sorts of free templates online if folks want to see what they look like. And Alia's book has a section about how to write them with some examples.
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A
Now our inboxes are all full.
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B
I feel we are drowning in cold emails. It's true, it's true.
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A
So when we're thinking about reaching out to agents, I mean, how many of these query letters should you be sending out?
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B
Yes, it is true. Agents are just as busy as the rest of us. They get a ton of these query letters. So Aliyah says you want to kind of up your odds by casting a wide net. You know, that could be tens, dozens of potential agents. You know, whatever you have the bandwidth for where you're not just spamming people, basically. And as a bonus piece of advice, she says you might also try sending query letters to some of the more junior agents at the agencies you come across in your sleuthing. Because early career agents are often eager to build up their client list and they might be more willing to take a risk on a lesser known writer.
- [06:39]
A
All right, takeaway one. If you're trying to get a book published the traditional way, you're going to start with an agent. One way to find an agent is to look through the acknowledgments section of books that are similar to yours. Writers usually thank their agents. Make a list of names, find the contact info, and reach out. If you're writing nonfiction, you'll send a query letter, which should be short and to the point, to say who you are, what writing experience you have, and what your book would be about. There are free templates online. After that, you'll generally work with your agent to come up with a book proposal. There's another technique you can use to get on an agent's get shorter pieces published elsewhere.
- [07:19]
B
So the second thing that prospective authors should be thinking about is how to build a body of work and also a potential audience of readers that might make you attractive to both agents and to the publishers they're going to be selling your book to. Aaliyah says, you just got to get out there.
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C
You can start publishing your own work. Essays, articles, shorter pieces in literary magazines, in op eds. Some writers self publish through platforms like substack. And the reason that could be a really good route is because a lot of agents like myself, do a lot of talent scouting.
- [07:54]
A
Help them find you.
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B
Yeah, you, like, put out a little bat signal for yourself. You want to be writing and pitching smaller pieces to all sorts of publications on the topic that you'd eventually like to write a book about because, you know, it builds your writerly muscles, builds your credentials.
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C
And.
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B
And if you start a substack or whatever, you might have an actual audience who might want to buy a book. And all of these things are things that are likely to put you on the radar of agents like her.
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A
All right, we've been talking about nonfiction. Is the process different if you're writing fiction?
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B
Yeah. So fiction largely works the same when it comes to getting an agent. Your best shot of getting picked up by a traditional publisher is still by finding an agent who represents similar fiction to what you are writing and convincing them to represent you. And similarly, the more small pieces of fiction you manage to publish, the better shot you'll have at convincing, convincing agents and publishers to take your book. There is one way that fiction is different, and that's that the majority of new fiction books that get bought and sold by publishers, they are based on full manuscripts instead of book proposals. So instead of handing over, like, a blueprint for the book you hope to write, you're actually handing over a fully drafted version of it. Because, you know, with fiction, agents and publishers want to know what it is that they're buying or selling.
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A
Something about that feels so vulnerable to me, like you're sending your baby out there into the world and who knows what's gonna happen to it?
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B
Yeah, hopefully it's like a boss baby who's ready to close deals, but, you know, yeah, it is vulnerable. You gotta put yourself out there.
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A
How might you know that your fiction book is ready to send to an agent?
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B
This is one of those sort of nebulous questions without a super definitive answer. But Alia says you wanna really do everything in your power to get your manuscript as close to finished or crystallized in your mind as possible. Because when you are querying a particular agent, that may be your only shot to convince them to take you on. And you want to make sure you're putting your best foot forward.
- [09:46]
A
Takeaway 2. If your book is fiction, you'll want to have the full manuscript ready. Before you start looking for an agent, though, you should keep an eye on the literary agency's preference for submissions. Some prefer to receive a summary at first or just the first few chapters. We'll talk about next steps after the break.
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C
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- [10:40]
A
an agent who wants to represent you. They're all in on your idea, they want to help you sell your book. What happens now?
- [10:46]
B
Okay, so if an agent offers to represent you and you, you know, you strike a deal, you go walking into the world of publishing together. Their job is now to help you get your book proposal or your fiction manuscript into saleable shape. The agent is a little bit like the first editor in this. On the book, they're giving you direct directions and feedback to make the idea as attractive as possible to potential publishers. And once the proposal is ready, it's the agent's job to get it into the hands of as many acquiring editors at different publishing houses as possible to drum up demand and interest and to get a sense of what this flow of book ideas looks like from the editor's perspective. I spoke to a guy named Tom Mayer who's a book editor at the publishing house W.W. norton, and they're the ones who actually edited the Planet Money book. He explained it to me like this I did the math a couple of years ago and I discovered that I receive 500, roughly, proposals from book agents every year. And out of those 500, I'm excited about 30. And I end up buying 10 or 12 a year. So out of what I'm getting submitted, I end up signing up 2%.
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A
Oof. Sounds like if you want to sell a book, you also need to be practical to think about the book as not just a piece of writing, but also a product.
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B
Yeah, I mean, like Tom, the editor, he told me that there are two minds that he has about it that are maybe useful for writers to be thinking about. Like, on the one hand, each piece of writing he's, he's looking at potentially publishing. He's thinking about it as like this aesthetic literary piece of art. Does it stir him emotionally? Is it something he, like, can't put down and wants to read all night and wants to tell all of his friends and family about? And on the other hand, like, every book is also a product. Publishers are thinking about their broad portfolio of books in terms of what's actually going to sell. What are the comparable titles out there to your book? What kind of marketing opportunities and kind of audience might you be able to leverage for this book idea you have? You know, does the book speak to the moment or the zeitgeist in some way? Like, you got to be thinking about all of that and the process of actually getting your book from a book idea to a physical copy you can find in your local bookstore. That can take several years, you know, so you're going to want to prepare yourself for a long process here.
- [12:58]
A
Takeaway 3. After you land an agent, they will help you get the proposal or manuscript into shape, and then they'll get it to editors at different publishing houses. This is a competitive process. Editors only buy a small fraction of the books they get pitched. And it helps to know that so your expectations are clear and so you remember to think of your book as a product you're trying to sell. Why does it make business sense? Well, let's talk about money. How much am I making off this book after my book comes out? Am I going to be like Scrooge McDuck diving into the pile of gold coins?
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B
I love that for you. And that is the image that I hope listeners will take away from this. But, but yeah, like in terms of the money, it's maybe useful to kind of think about the incentives here. Like the agents who are helping you sell your book to the publishers, they are paid on commission, usually around 15%. And this is a big public service announcement that Aaliyah wants everyone to keep in mind as they're looking for agents. Agents should not be soliciting payment before they successfully sell your work because that, because the way that's structured, that means they're incentivized to get you the best possible deal. As for the actual amount of money that a publisher is going to pay you for your book idea if they buy it, that is something called an advance or an advance against royalties. And basically the publisher is, you know, is taking a bet on you. They're paying you this sum for your idea to kind of carry it out. And the advance is, is money that the author gets to keep no matter how well the book sells. If the book takes off and the publisher is able to sell enough copies to cover the cost of that initial advance, then the author is going to start seeing, you know, royalties on every additional copy of the book sold.
- [14:36]
A
Are publishers taking a loss on a lot of books?
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B
Around 20% of the books actually make 80% of the money. And a majority of books are not, you know, earning out of their advance or turning a big profit. So that means in most cases the advance basically just is the money that you're going to get for writing your book.
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A
Do you have any estimate on how much advances generally are for different kinds of books? Like what are we talking about here? Are we talking about like tens of thousands of dollars or like $100,000 or more?
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B
$100,000 would be a pretty sizable advance though for like the biggest blockbuster authors and celebrities. You might see seven figure book deal advances over a million dollars. Publishers are generally pretty secretive about the exact advances they're paying. But there are some sort of like self pulled author that put an average major book deal at around $60,000.
- [15:29]
A
And then do you get that money all at once?
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B
Yeah, when you're paid the advance, you don't just get it in some sort of lump sum. You don't just get your Scrooge McDuck pile of gold coins. You are getting it paid out in installments, tethered to big milestones in the process. So you might get like a quarter when you sign the book deal, another 25% when you deliver the finished manuscript, 25% when it's published, and then another 25% a year after that. So, you know, it's not like all of a sudden you just like strike it rich. You have a down payment for a house. It's maybe better to think about this as kind of an incremental way of, you know, helping to sustain yourself as you're going through the process of writing and publishing. In addition to getting your advance paid out in installments, you are also paying 15% of that to your agents. Every time you get paid, that's their commission. You're also paying income tax on all of that. So whatever that big shiny advance number is that you are hopefully able to get, you got to think about how it's going to be parsed out.
- [16:28]
A
Takeaway 4 In most cases, your advance will be the only money you'll get from publishing a book, unless the book really takes off and then you might get royalties. You'll get the advance in installments, not in a lump sum. And you will have to pay a fee to your agent, often around 15%. And keep in mind, if you are writing a book to get rich, it's technically possible, but highly unlikely. One thing I am gleaning from all this is that it feels like a long shot to get a big book deal with a traditional publisher. Are there any other routes people can take if they're hitting a wall or they want to go a different path? I've heard there's a way to self publish.
- [17:09]
B
Yeah, there are all sorts of ways to self publish these days. There are platforms where you can publish your own ebook. There are free versions of that. There are ways you can pay to get exposed to a broader audience. What's important to understand about this path is that instead of convincing a publisher to ideally pay you to write your book and then taking care of the manufacturing and marketing themselves, when you self publish, you are often the one paying for things like editing and book design and printing costs. If you make a real physical copy, like you're the one taking on the financial risk for whether your book actually sells or not. On the flip side, if you do self publish, you are also likely to make much more money per copy. And Aaliyah says self publishing can be a savvy move, especially in particular genres.
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C
Sci fi, fantasy and romance. People publish on fan fiction websites and get to, you know, go viral and get discovered. I think it's a great way to grow as a writer to find an audience and it's a fun world to be part of.
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A
Okay, that's hopeful.
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B
Yeah, she reminded me. Like, several books have found so much success in the self publishing ecosystem that they were eventually snapped up by major traditional publishers and turned into like blockbuster series. These are books like the Martian or Fifty Shades of Gray.
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A
You know, I do wonder. Writing a book is hard enough. You have to spend a lot of time on it very often.
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B
Totally.
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A
And then getting it out there is also tough and not super lucrative. So why do this?
- [18:42]
B
I think the first kind of, like, somewhat obvious thing here is that if you're going to be trying to publish a book, it really has to be about way more than making money. Like, there's so many more efficient, lucrative ways of making money or earning a living than going through this whole publishing gauntlet and putting yourself out there for rejection. Like, you really have to kind of believe in the thing that you want to say to the world and have a real audience in mind that you want to connect with through writing this thing.
- [19:11]
C
If you are writing a book for the glory, know the glory is really limited. But if you're writing a book to communicate something to others, that's a much better place to come from. And you might not get all the readers that you want. But if even just 10 people read that book and take something from it, I think that's a victory. I like that.
- [19:37]
B
Yeah. So you really have to be in it for the love of the game, because writing a book and publishing a book is a real journey.
- [19:43]
A
Alexi, thank you so much.
- [19:45]
B
Thank you for having me. What a pleasure.
- [19:52]
A
Okay, time for a recap. You want to publish a book the traditional way. Takeaway one is to start with an agent. You can find one by scanning the acknowledgments section of similar books. Writers usually thank their agents and then you'll send a query letter. Another technique you can use to get on an agent's radar is to get shorter pieces published elsewhere. Takeaway 2. If your book is fiction, you'll want to have the full text ready to go when you reach out to agents. But keep an eye out for the agency's preferences. Some of them want to get just a summary or the first few chapters of the book, at least initially. Takeaway 3. Your agent will help you edit the book and send it to publishers trying to drum up interest. This is a competitive process, so remember that in addition to being a work of art, your book is a process that you're trying to sell. What's the business case? Takeaway 4. In most cases, your advance will be the only money you'll get from publishing a book, unless the book really takes off, and then you might get royalties. You'll get the advance in installments, not in a lump sum. And you will have to pay a fee to your agent, often around 15% if you are writing a book to get rich. Yeah, it is technically possible, but it's highly unlikely, given how competitive the publishing industry is. You might also consider self publishing. There are free platforms where you can publish your own ebook, and there are ways you can pay to reach a broader audience. Remember, if you do that or if you pay to print your own book, you are taking on all the financial risk. But if it sells, you'll make much more money per copy and self publishing can be a way to get discovered. That's how the authors of the Martian and Fifty Shades of Grey did it. All right, that's our show. For more Life Kit. Check out our other episodes. We have one on how to read more and another on how to write your memoir. Also, we love hearing from you, so if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us@lifekitpr.org this episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. Our digital editor is Malika Garib and our visuals editor is CJ Ricolon. Meghan Keane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our Executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Taegle, Claire Marie Schneider, Margaret Serino, and Mika Ellison. Engineering support comes from Damien Herring. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.