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Lighting Controls Podcast
Episode 124 - Simple Devices Do Not Mean Simple Solutions
00:52:00
After a brief hiatus, the Lighting Controls Podcast is back with a wide-ranging conversation abou...
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I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver and my new podcast, Unpaused, is the place for bold, unfiltered conversations about what it takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Listen to and follow Unpaused. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.
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The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors, advertisers or presenters. Advertising does not imply endorsement by the sponsors and presenters.
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Hey guys and welcome back to Lighting Controls Podcast. And boy are we glad to be back. We missed you guys. Webster and I are so happy to be back and doing our thing. Before we jump into the conversation, let me just take a minute to remind everyone. Today's episode is presented by the lca, the Lighting Controls Academy and Arc Light
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B
Summit, and it's financially supported by the national association of Innovative lighting distributors, or Nailed. Check out our website, lightingcontrolspodcast.com all of our episodes and a whole lot more, but also huge shout out to our sponsor. Just moment of honesty here, guys. We don't just pair with anybody for our sponsorships. We actually vet the products we work with. And maxlight and their C Max lighting controls platform is worthy of being a sponsor of ours. We definitely believe in their mission. They're trying to provide really simple, ready to use lighting control solutions, especially when you're using their controls enabled luminaires from MaxLite. The C Max platform really becomes this really excellent solution that is dynamic and changeable. They have this patented USB C port on the fixture that just lets you swap out modules. So if you want to go from simple, you know, local control to all the way up to networked lighting control systems, it is a really great solution. So I highly recommend you check it out. Max lite.com Cmax but let's get into the conversation. So to address the elephant in the room, yes, we were on a bit of a hiatus because there was some restructuring going on at Nailed and the LightyControls podcast is now out of a different studio. But we are still going to be bringing you the same great content that we have always brought to you. Today's episode is going to be a little bit more leisurely because it's just Ron and I, primarily because we're also just testing out the equipment that we have with the new studio. But also, you know, I think there's, there's a lot to just kind of catch up on there. We've, we've been gone for about two months now and so it would it, you know, a Lot has happened in our industry and also just in general with lighting controls. So, I mean, Ron, it's great to be back. It was a. It was a missed experience to not have, you know, these podcasts every, you know, week or so. So I'm glad that we're back.
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Yeah, no, it's. I'm. I'm with you. Right. Like, it's one of those things that you start. I don't want to say I took it for granted for a while, but you start. It was such a regular flow, something we did every week or a couple times a week. We'd record, depending on schedules. And then all of a sudden, we didn't have it for, like, two months, and it was really awkward, and we were still communicating very regularly through this whole process, so. But it just felt really weird to not be recording and not have guests. And I just felt like we were. It's not nothing we could control, but I was like, man, I just feel bad for our audience. And I know, look, we're not talking to millions of people here. I understand that, but it's just like, all of a sudden, we just kind of went on this little hiatus without any notice to anybody. And I just feel bad for our guests, for our guests and for our listeners for just not knowing what was going on. Right.
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Yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, there's. There is sort of a interesting component to a release schedule that still exists. I mean, nowadays where we have, like, streaming platforms where everything kind of gets dumped in your lap all at once and you just kind of go on a binge, you know, having this release cycle. You know, I did get a couple of people saying, hey, is the lighting controls podcast still going on? And it's like, yeah, I didn't realize people, like, actually followed us on our release schedule. So it was sort of an interesting realization that, you know, there's this experience baked into having an episode a week.
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A
Yeah. And I will say, for those of you who do listen and watch, we were getting metrics, and so we understood, like, where some of the views and listens were coming from. And there was about a hundred of you, on average, that listened on your Apple watches. And I am fascinated by this. Like, and then. But it goes back to exactly what you're saying. Was this something that you were using as part of while you were on a job site and you were sort of in a flow, working by yourself and you were listening, or is it something you were doing on a. On a workout just to help the time pass? Like, I'M super curious. So if you were one of those Apple Watch listeners, I would love to hear from you. So I can understand what you were doing because that, it just was fascinating to me.
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B
Definitely. No, and I, I think that in general, Ron and I really enjoy hearing about all of the anecdotal stuff when people say just like, hey, I listen to your podcast all the time. You know, it's just really heartening to, to hear all of these stories of people who are just like, yeah, you know, I, I just listen to you guys while I commute or something like that. So please, you know, don't, don't be a stranger. We're, we're happy, positive people who just like chatting. So reach out. And, you know, we, we have our emails as well that are disclosed, so if you ever want to just chat about lighting controls, please reach out to us. And that's also how we get guests. I mean, there are a number of guests who will make a comment on a LinkedIn post or something. And you know, we didn't know about that person. We just grabbed them and say, hey, do you want to be on the show? And sometimes that's where some of our best conversations come from, where it's just this person we never met before we bring on the show and we chat.
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A
Yep, yep, Absolutely. It's good, right? And it's, and so, you know, don't be afraid to, to make a comment or reach out because like Wes said, that is exactly how we, we find out that people are even interested in being on this show. Right. And I can't tell you if you don't think you're going to be a good guest or, oh, I've got nothing to talk about. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that you are wrong and that you would be fascinating to other people to listen to because every person who has told us that has said, I can't believe that time went by so fast. I can't believe we didn't even talk about half the things I thought we would talk about. Trust me, a 30 or 45 minute episode is nothing. Once you actually get rolling into a conversation.
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B
Totally. No, and I think that that is, you know, the, the part of this whole experience with the podcast that I personally have been missing is just sort of like this opportunity to chat with people and they really are just these conversations. They're not. We don't pre plan our, our podcasts. We just ask for guests to join us and then we go into it and see where, where all of what we're talking about leads us to. Sometimes it's a weird maze of conversation topics, and sometimes it's a straight line through, you know, a code compliance element. But overall, I think, you know, that that is one of the things that I've certainly been missing myself for the last couple of months is just this opportunity to take an hour out of my day and chat about something. Lighting controls.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, look, I learned just as much from our guests as they learn from us. Right. If not more. It's. Right. We've had people on who have been in this industry far longer than I have or in a different aspect of this, you know, industry. And they're explaining things that I wasn't 100% certain of or I don't deal with on a regular basis. So.
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Right.
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I've learned, you know, more than I could have imagined in the last couple of years of doing this just from our guests alone. So it's absolutely. It's fascinating.
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No, it is. And I mean, I think the other thing that's really fascinating for me is the fact that there seems to be opportunity when it comes to media and education for lighting controls. So one of the things that we're doing at the Lighting Controls Academy is we're converting the Education Express materials that used to be free, which are now under NIMA Academy's platform. We're converting them all to video and so people can access those Once, once that goes live, I can't say exactly what the. What the date is. If it's not available yet, it's going to be very, very soon. But we are providing that for people who want to take advantage of the information that's available out there and not necessarily go through the process of getting the CEU through NIMA Academy. So definitely pay attention to. I will probably post it on LinkedIn when it does go live. But that's one of the things that's really been interesting for me is finding these avenues for helping people learn about lighting controls.
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A
And there are a lot of avenues out there. Right. And it's just a matter of taking the time sometimes and asking the right people and finding and having the right resources. Obviously, the LCA and NIMA Academy is a fantastic resource. It's been there for a long time. Right. And the content only continues to grow. But there are plenty of others out there for any of our nailed listeners. Obviously nailed has theirs, their, you know, certifications that they have as well, you know, so there's, there's plenty of resources out there for your industry, depending on sort of which sector, you know, you're in. So it's just a matter of taking a little bit of time to seek them out.
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B
Absolutely. So, and, and I think that's another thing though that I hear a lot from people is that it's like, where do I go to learn about lighting controls? And you know, one of the, the resources that I do direct people to is the Lighting Controls Academy's website, just because there's a lot of content there, regardless of whether it's the education Express platform that's been moved to Nima Academy or just the regular articles that they publish. And so that's, that's the starting point that I recommend. But I think the other place is depending on who you are in the industry really determines which direction you should go after that. Because, you know, if you are a specifier, really your local reps are the next step. You should be reaching out to all of your local reps and getting connected with them and identifying their systems, having them come in and show off their systems to you. And that's actually one of the quickest ways to learn because they are typically a well of information that is just untapped, in my opinion. And so that's sort of the first step as a specifier. Now I'm curious from your perspective, Ron, as a dealer, distributor, what would be the next step for you if you
- [11:32]
A
were new to it? So it's funny. So in a lot of cases, the reps are kind of your first. Right. As a dealer. Right. Dealer integrator. All of the major manufacturers that we work with are through rep agencies. Right. So it's the same exact thing is the reps are really your best first line in order to sort of, you know, find that education and to, to gain more knowledge. But then the manufacturers as well, all of the manufacturers have training and resources for all of their equipment. You know, whether it's lighting controls specific or you know, their other equipment as well. Right. There's, there's plenty of free training or not all this free. There's plenty of training, you know, out there through all the manufact manufacturers that way. So between the reps, direct to the manufacturer. But then even if you're just looking at like, okay, I'm not, this is new to me in general. What is basic network lighting controls? What is, you know, what is 0 to 10? What is Dolly? And that's, I think, where, you know, the, the LCA and Nima Academy and Education Express would really fill those basic needs of what is a system first and then you can really kind of get into manufacturer specific solutions, work with your reps to gain more additional knowledge general before you dive down individual rabbit holes. And, but there's, there's, there's a lot to it right when you start getting into it. Most reps have to worry about one or two controls lines, but as a dealer integrator we have to worry about all sorts of controls lines from all our various reps. So it's, it becomes a very big rabbit hole very quickly.
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B
Well, and I think though there's an interesting intersection there because as a specifier I will oftentimes reach out to a dealer as opposed to a rep, depending on the project. You know, if, if it's going to be a fully proprietary lighting control solution for a commercial building, the reps the perfect option for that. For a resource, if it's going to be a third party DMX extravaganza, the dealer integrator is probably going to be the better resource for that because they will be able to kind of bridge the gap between multiple manufacturers that aren't necessarily repped by the same rep agency. And so there's a strength in also identifying your local dealer integrators as well as a specifier. And so, you know, that's, that's a really interesting point that because the dealer integrator is independent of the manufacturers, there's still relations but for most part you can basically say, you know, what brand X, your, your quality has really slipped over the years. We're going to drop you and not use you anymore.
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A
Yeah, and it's funny too because like I get a lot of questions, I submit a lot of bill of materials for, you know, pricing requests to various manufacturers and to reps and I always get back the, oh, well, do you want X, Y and Z? No, I just want what I told you I wanted. They're like, well, you sure you don't want your networking through us and your DMX distribution? No, no, I've got, I've got other parties that I use for that stuff. I don't need your proprietary solution. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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B
No, of course not.
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We have other solutions that we like to use for certain things. Certain controllers are better for multiple product brands. There's all sorts of various solutions based on what you're trying to achieve. But it's always funny when I get that question. It's like, no, if I wanted it, I, I, I would have asked for it. But I do, I understand why they ask, right? Because I'm Sure. There's a lot of people who submit those requests and then go, oh yeah, I would love that from you. Like that'd be great if you give me a whole solution. So.
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B
Well, and I mean, as a salesperson, your responsibility is to your manufacturers. And so if you don't ask the question, then you're really doing your own manufacturers. It's a service. So, you know, having worked as a sales rep myself, I, I know that game. It's like, you know, you know, there are definitely more aggressive tactics that that could be taken. But for the most part, the best method that I've seen is just sort of asking the question of like, hey, did you know that we also do this? Okay, great, then you're all set. If you already know it, then we're going to step, we're going to let you do your thing. But to your point, there are plenty of groups that just, you know, throw together a system with parts that they are familiar with and don't realize that there's other options out there. You know it. And I think that's consistent in our industry anyways. You know, the way that we design systems with lighting controls tend to be leaning towards familiar brands. Even if that familiar brand isn't necessarily the best solution. It's because of that familiarity that brings people to do it again and again that way. And it's not, that's not inherently a bad way to go about it because you get consistency that way. But it does hamper your ability to adapt with new technologies and other types of projects that might deviate outside of the scope that that manufacturer is capable of covering.
- [16:42]
A
Sure. And I don't discount that. But I will also say there's a. When you have an expectation of desired outcomes from your clients and sometimes, oftentimes the last thing you want to do on a multi million dollar project. Right. Or something very large is try something new that you've never worked with before. Right. Because we've, we've seen how that can go. Sometimes it goes absolutely smashingly and then other times it's the worst thing in the world. Right. So it's, you know, there's, there are time, there's a time and place to try new tech and usually you try and find that smaller project where you could fit it in, where if it doesn't work out, I can fix it easily. It's not a huge ordeal, it's not going to cost us a ton of money. But if it goes wrong on a really big project, that's, you know, it's an Eyesore for everybody, as you know. Right. These things happen. So it can be tough. And so when you, when you get very comfortable with a certain system and you know exactly how it's going to operate and exactly how it's going to perform. I'm guilty. It can be tough to sometimes stray away. And you do, that is where you need those smaller projects to try that and go, okay, I really like the way it did this. Maybe not as much on this, but it offers me this feature set that this product doesn't have. So I could use this in other applications. But, you know, that's. Again, it's find the right project to try the new tech.
- [18:10]
B
Yeah, no, and I think that's a really good point of scale because it's, it could be very easy to go, well, you know, we'll try this new technology on the next project rather than on the next small project. But I think it, it is good to keep testing systems, you know, that you believe in. Don't just like, roll the dice and pick a system. But like, if, if you've gone to see the factory and you've gotten really extensively trained on the system and you know enough to be able to design or make decisions with that system, then yeah, pick a small project and try it out because you will learn. And you know, any project, there are going to be issues. You know, there is no such thing as a flawless project. And the question is, how quickly can you adapt with those issues and how quickly can the manufacturer adapt with those issues? Yeah.
- [19:12]
A
And I will say, even as an integrator, when we work with a new system for the first time, it very, very often, probably 99 times out of 100, we bring the manufacturer out on that first project. Right. We pay for the services, we bring the manufacturer out because they know the product better than we do. Right. If something happens, something, there's some, how do we program this thing exactly the way we want to? What's the nuance here? They know that information, we don't. So why not put your techs in the field in the best possible position to have a successful outcome. Right? So we'll put extra techs on a project because then, great. Now everyone can go learn from the manufacturer on site in a real world position, not. Not in, you know, their warehouse somewhere with, you know, you. Everything's always perfect, Right?
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B
Right.
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Not a real world situation. So we'll say everyone go, this, the manufacturer's coming up. He's gonna be here for a couple of days. He's gonna assist us with the Startup, let learn as much as you can from him and don't be afraid to do that. No, I understand there's a cost to that. I absolutely understand that. But, you know, sometimes you have to eat a little bit of the cost yourself or you have to bake it in however you choose as your company to deal with that. But I will tell you, the first time you work with a new system, it is absolutely worth having the manufacturer there to assist with the startup.
- [20:39]
B
Totally. And I think that that's a really good point in general is when you do find a new system that you want to work with, there is going to be an investment. But the question is, is that investment worth it to you? And I would make the argument that if the system streamlines something or adds a feature that you could not provide before, then yes, it is. It is a worthwhile investment. Now, is it going to have an ROI of tomorrow? No. But the thing is that lighting control systems are constantly changing and constantly, you know, coming up with new features, new capabilities. And if you're not staying ahead of that, then you will get bowled over eventually because you will have, you know, picked one brand and God forbid that one brand goes under or everybody stops using that one brand. And so, you know, a diverse portfolio is not just a good idea in stocks, it's also a good idea in manufacturers when it comes to lighting controls. You know, I was just reading an email chain today about a lighting manufacturer that went under, but there was no announcement. The only way that we found out that they had gone under was because we sent an email out to them and got an A bounce back that said all of the employees have been furloughed. Please contact this person. Okay, so it's like if that were a lighting controls manufacturer. And we've seen that happen, we have times within the last decade, you know, and, and that's devastating because not just because of the projects that have been completed, but the projects that are halfway through or the projects that have been quoted and ordered. You know, there's, there's so much that happens when a company goes under, and it's. Sometimes it's easy to predict and sometimes it's really hard to predict. I mean, Douglas, for instance, was a huge shock to so many groups because it seemed like it was a fixture in the industry.
- [22:53]
A
Yep, yep. No, it's. It. And it does happen. It happens all the time. I mean, I was on site this morning for an older LCND system and they, you know, it's, it's. Look, the system's over. 20 years old. It is past its life expectancy anyway. However, it's a lighting control system and people just expect it to work. And I get it. They probably should have budgeted for it a few years ago. But it's one of those things where it's like, well, they, they're, they've tried to get support, they've tried to do this. And it's a system that, you know, acuity doesn't support anymore because it wasn't acuity back then. It's just, it's so confusing and it's really hard for people to navigate, so.
- [23:33]
B
Oh, totally. And, and I think the other thing that's really fascinating is this sort of mentality of once I buy a lighting control system, that's it, I don't ever have to think about it again. I mean, the reality of the situation is even, even a standard rocker switch on the wall will eventually need to be replaced.
- [23:53]
A
Yeah, yeah. So circuit breakers, too. People don't realize that. How many people, how many schools have you gone into where they turn the lights on and off with the circuit breaker because they can't find the switch, they don't know where it is. It's not programmed. So the electrician or the maintenance guy goes to the panel every day to flip the breaker on and off and then it just stops working one day and it's like, well, yeah, even circuit breakers have a life cycle, like.
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B
Right.
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A
They're not intended to be flipped on and off every day. That's not what they're rated for. So I understand why you did that, but that's why it's now failed, Right?
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B
Right. No, it's. And I think that's another really interesting point about systems in general is that if you don't use them for their intended purpose, their lifespan depreciates so much quicker. I mean, you know, that's why, like, relays have a rated life cycle, X number of cycles that it is rated for. And after it passes that threshold, it's basically like you're in, in uncharted territory. Granted, it's, you know, tens of thousands of cycles. It's not just like 10 cycles, but at the same time, you know, there's a limit there. There is a threshold for which everything is expected to behave. And then after that threshold, the expectation is you're going to replace it. But the vast majority of groups don't do that. They just kind of keep pushing it until it stops working. And so I feel like, you know, the image that comes to mind is like, people driving outdated cars into the ground. And when the, when the car stops working and the engine has seized and they bring it into the shop and they go, it's not working anymore. Crappy car isn't working anymore. And it's like, it's not the brand. It's. Because you drove this way past its intended lifespan.
- [25:59]
A
Yep. Right. I mean, regular maintenance. But the car thing's a perfect example. I hate. But you hear about it, people that don't get oil changes and they run the car completely out of oil and yeah, they see the engine and they want to blame somebody else because they didn't do maintenance on the car. Right. It's like, it's simple stuff like that. But it's the same exact analogy if you don't do maintenance on your lighting system on a regular basis. Now, whether that's an older system that, you know, you need to replace relays or look at like, okay, we need to put this in a capital budget and plan for a few cycles. And how can we replace this? Can we replace it in phases? Can we upgrade in phases? Does it need to be done all at once if the manufacturer doesn't support it anymore? Right. So plan ahead if it's a newer system. Right. We've talked about it a thousand times. These are living, breathing entities and they're smarter than us.
- [26:53]
B
And.
- [26:54]
A
Or at least they think they are sometimes. Right. But like, you have to go in and make adjustments to these things. Like you're going to have to go in and adjust sensor settings based on how a space is used. Because look, we all used the Hubble sensors a few years ago that were super smart and adaptive and that's great. And they get installed during construction. So they've adapted already to the construction schedule. And then all of a sudden the building gets turned over to the owner. There's usually no one there for a little while. So they, they start to adjust themselves again. Then the owner comes in and they're on a completely different schedule than the. Right. The installation was from the construction workers. And they wonder why everything doesn't, you know, isn't working right, and this and that. And you have to go through and basically reset the sensors to retrain themselves to these new schedules. And it's the. They don't relearn overnight. They look at patterns. Right. It takes a while for these sensors to sort of relearn those conditions and go through and. But these are things that you have to work on and adjust on a regular basis. Look at, look at the flow through of how your space is Used. Do you need to adjust timing? Do you need to change what switches do? What was programmed day one is almost never what you need. 30 days, 60 days, 90 days later. Right. And then so on and so forth for years to come as use space changes you modify. If you just. If you have an open floor plan and you just rearrange all the desks and change the workflow and stuff for people, then, yeah, you're likely going to have to make some adjustments to your system just based on those simple changes that you've made. But people don't think about all that.
- [28:43]
B
No, no. And I think one of the funny things about one of the arguments for digital dimming protocols is the reconfigurability component of if you're going to, like, change around the floor plan, then you can reconfigure your lighting layout. I spoke to a technician recently who said, that's a load of bunk. I never see that happen. And it's like, yeah, that's because of the projects you're working on don't use digital dimming protocols. So everybody's stuck in that mentality of, okay, can't move the furniture, but it's sort of a chicken or the egg situation of, you know, if you had that fluidity and you had that ability to change things, would you consider it or at least consider it more?
- [29:36]
A
It's, it's. It's a tough question only because generally I say yes, and I want to say yes. But then I also understand that if you have an open floor plan office and if you're the same tenant and you move things around, then great, yes. Being able to reprogram and change things, that makes a ton of sense. If you envision that we're going to do this today and we oversize the space, we know we're going to change things in a couple years, then, yes, that absolutely makes a ton of sense. But if you're property manager and you're building every floor the same way and you don't know who the tenants are coming in, the next tenant may want to rip everything out and change it anyway. They're going to want different light fixtures, so you could put in all that tech. But if they don't understand it or they don't like the light fixtures and they want to change them out anyway, then it's going to get done. So it's, it really does depend on the space and how it's being managed. And it's. But generally I want to say yes, but then I know people are like, I don't like those lights, let's change them. And you go, okay, all right.
- [30:50]
B
Point here, which you may not have intentionally done, is that it gets back to that argument of it really depends on the project.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah.
- [30:59]
B
You know, you, you cannot cookie cutter lighting control systems the way that you might cookie cutter how you did lighting control systems back in the day with relays and time clocks. You, you know, nowadays you really need to think through what is this project doing, how can, which system is going to best assist the goal of this project? And, you know, in, in a lot of cases, people are going to say, well, it's always code minimum. And it's like, yeah, it's a lot of the time code minimum. But we are starting to see more interest in advanced capabilities, like, for instance, tying into building management systems or, you know, at least coordinating between H VAC and lighting controls on a simpler platform than a whole bms. You know, we're seeing demand for more than code compliance because of specific needs. And so that's where you get into real trouble. If you just keep code minimum in everything, you're not stretching the capabilities of that system or trying to understand further beyond that code minimum compliance. And that will put you at a huge disadvantage eventually, especially because codes keep changing, too.
- [32:17]
A
Yep, yep, they do. And, and, and it can be really easy to, to, to do some of these things. And like an example are we're, we're redoing some work in our office, and we're building out some new offices right now in our building. And I purposely put switched outlets in the ceiling for our guys because a lot of our guys like to hang things from the ceiling. They like to hang some sort of small pendant or chandelier or they like to put up like a mini leco above their desk. Right. So they have a task light. And what would happen, and currently happens is you go by half these offices at night and everyone's left and all these lights are randomly on, and then they're not on a light switch. You got to go find them what outlet they're in in the wall or find the power strip or find the thing that they're connected to to unplug it or turn it off. And I was like, we're not, we're not doing this anymore. One, the fire marshal doesn't love it. He's already not happy about cords running up the walls and everything else. So why wouldn't you just take that next step? Say, okay, we're going to put switched outlets in the ceiling. You guys plug all your stuff into these outlets. And then as soon as you guys leave, everything's tied to the same motion sensor. So your room lights, your task lights and everything are going to go off when you leave at the end of the day and no one has to worry about it anymore. But it's that kind of stuff that. Like switched outlets. Sure. Is that a code minimum requirement? Yes. But put some thought into where you're putting these switched outlets and the use of your space because maybe putting a bunch of switched outlets on the floor or in the walls isn't truly just the best for your application, depending on how your people use the space. So you do have to really think through that as well.
- [33:58]
B
Well, and I think that, that there's, there's a creativity to good lighting controls design that I think a lot of people write off because it, it's such a theoretical and kind of like non visual element of lighting controls that you need to think through. Whereas a lot of lighting professionals are visual people. They have to physically see it to understand it. Whereas lighting controls, we have diagrams upon diagrams showing how the theoretical elements of the system work. But in reality you can't have a visual showing everything that the system's capable of doing. And so if you can't visualize it in your head in the theoretical sense, then you have a real challenge understanding it. But I think that's where some people think lighting controls design doesn't have creativity to it. It's just drawing a line from point A to point B and you. And it's like, yeah, but what is point B? Are you sure that that that's the right point B that you're drawing a line to? And so it, there is a level of thought process that's unique to in comparison to how you do lighting design. So I think what you're describing here is like, like you mentioned beyond code requirements because you're actually applying it to the space parameters. But at the same time people don't think receptacles on the ceiling.
- [35:35]
A
Right.
- [35:37]
B
And so that's a unique application that people might not even consider as an option because they don't have a visual frame of reference for a receptacle on the ceiling.
- [35:50]
A
Yeah, no, it's true. Right. But like, and it's just as important to, for a controls designer to have a good relationship with the lighting designer too. How many times have you seen a direct indirect fixture that then gets attached to a single pack or to a single. Right. Single circuit? And now they've got, even if they split the 0 to 10? Well, that's great. But most fixtures don't dim to off, right. Depending on the drivers that went in. So now do you have single control of this fixture? Is the indirect and direct being controlled together or are they on the same power feed? But you have separate dimming, but the direct can never be turned off because it doesn't dim to zero and so it's always on. So, but, but that's where some of the creativity comes into play is then what's the, you know, what's the best way to do that, to really achieve the lighting designer sort of vision and then think through what is the best way to do this? Is it, is it, is it an individual pack or circuit per zone or now I'm running extra wired all the fixtures or do I just put a fixture controller at every fixture? Right. Regardless of where you bought the fixtures you can buy, most manufacturers have local fixture controllers that you can install on products. Right. So is it just a local fixture controller? And now the electrician only has to get wire there and not get dimming wires there because you're putting that fixture controller at every fixture. So thinking through the design and the vision for the, you know, the design team itself, the owner and how is best going to be sort of used for the space. But, and that is where a lot of the creativity comes into play. Because especially, you know, if whoever's doing the programming too, right. It all ties together because you've put the programmer in the best possible position. If you've done a good controls design that gives them the most flexibility. And the most flexibility doesn't have to be the most expensive solution. Right. I mean, depending on the number of fixtures, a lot of times you can very quickly look at the ROI of okay, if I'm using a direct indirect fixture that's tunable white, you're now running potentially 80 to 10 lines. If it's not digital, you're running 80 to 10 lines to this fixture. Right. So do a cost analysis. Is it cheaper for the electrician to run the 80 to 10 lines to every fixture and deal with that, or is it cheaper to put a small fixture control module or two? Right. Indirect and indirect at every fixture.
- [38:33]
B
Right.
- [38:34]
A
You know, it very quickly may flip the other way that it's cheaper to put modules at fixtures or buy fixtures that you know, again, it's working with the designer. Right. But buy fixtures that have the controls embedded in them and then you don't have to even think about that. So there' There's a lot of solutions when it comes to working through those sort of controls decisions where there is a lot of creativity and it's not just black and white on paper.
- [38:58]
B
Right. Well, and I think that there's another point in there too, which brings me to a phrase that I've started using over the last couple of months, which is simple devices does not result in simple systems. And what I mean by that, the easiest example of this is a wall box dimmer. Yeah. It's a very simple device, but if you have 20 zones, you now have 20 devices on the wall. That is a complex system using simple devices. Whereas a complex, a simple solution could be using a complex system that isn't noticeable by the end user. So for example, what you're talking about there, where you have controls modules in every single fixture, that is complex but the end user experience is simple. And so it's, it's easy to get distracted by, oh, you know, this is a very easy to install device, therefore the system's going to be very easy. It's like no. And think through the application that you're going through. I mean, another example of, of painting the picture for, for a lighting designer is using linears in daylight zones. As you're spanning multiple daylight zones, you're going to have a very hard line in that linear where that daylight zone shifts to the next zone. Yep. And so like if that's not communicated, then on site the lighting designer is going to be like, this is horrendous. And it's like, well, you put the fixture crossing multiple daylight zones. I don't know what to tell you. Code requires me to do it this way.
- [40:48]
A
Yep, yep. No, it's, it's true. Right. And that's, it can be so tough. And that's where ultimately look as a, if you're a designer, whether you have an in house team that does your controls or you work with a separate controls team or it's your specifier or however you deal with your controls solution, you should be working hand in hand with the controls team in some manner. Right. Don't just put it on the plans and walk away because you're likely to not get the desired outcome that you want. You're likely to not provide what you sold your client through all the discussions and early on because if the controls designer doesn't know what your vision is and what you wanted, you can't entrust that they're going to provide you the solution you wanted in the first place. Right. So these conversations are so important regardless of which discipline they're with. Right. If Your control designer is your, is your ee, then fine. But you need to have those conversations on a regular basis and make sure that everyone understands the vision so you get the desired outcome you want. Because that, that ultimately is where we see most of the, the failures.
- [42:02]
B
Is.
- [42:03]
A
It's a breakdown in communication.
- [42:05]
B
Yes. Yeah. And, and, and I can speak to that again and again and again that, you know, if you don't communicate clearly and you don't consistently communicate, you will probably run into some issues and it's. In some cases you don't know who you can communicate with or who is on the project. But, you know, doing your due diligence sometimes, you know, requires additional layers of, of work trying to navigate. I think I mentioned this at one point on an episode, but there was a project that I worked on that I was trying to find the, the right person to talk to on a campus. And I eventually found a way through an H Vac integrator who knew the guy on the campus who then connected me to that guy. And it was just the weirdest roundabout way that I had gotten to that person. But I finally got to the person and got the answers I needed and what I was being told to do was wrong before I got to that person. So, you know, even though the person who's telling you all these things has the right conviction.
- [43:17]
A
Yeah.
- [43:17]
B
They might not actually understand what they're asking for. And so finding the right people to talk to is, Is a critical role. But we're almost out of time here, so I'm going to try to package what we talked about here. Very first thing, though, we are operating out of a different studio, so. But we will still be releasing episodes. Lighting Controls podcast is not going away, but there was just an unfortunate break in our schedule that happened. But if you're new to Lighting Controls, if you've this, this is the first episode you've turned on for the Lighting Controls podcast, or you just don't know where to go. For more information, I highly recommend you check out Lighting Controls Academy and their, their website, their educational resources. They have a lot of great information for people starting out in the industry and also for people looking for deeper dives and more advanced information. But then also there's your local reps. Regardless of, of who you are, unless you are a local rep, you know, they are a great wealth of information. If you're working for a manufacturer, your manufacturer probably already has a bunch of training materials as it is. So if you don't know where that is, you should definitely ask. But as A specifier, dealer, distributor, contractor, any number of these groups, reps are a great resource for information. So highly recommend you, you reach out to all of them, not just one, all of them. They all have something to offer, all have great products to bring to the table and you might even get a free lunch out of it. But the other thing is when it comes to best practices with lighting controls, I mean understanding the variety that's out there, how each system has its strengths and how best to apply that strength to the projects you're working on. If you're just constantly doing, you know, schools for instance, and that's all you do day in, day out, then there are some really good products out there that are specific to school and educational environments. And so getting familiar with which groups have case studies on schools and stuff like that really helps helps you understand. Okay, yeah, they've done schools before and this is how they've done it. But the other thing is just communicating in general is the critical key here. Because not just going one direction, it's two directional. You know, listening to the end users, listening to the other designers on the project and then relaying back information that you're seeing so that that dialogue keeps evolving. I mean, so many issues that have happened on projects that I've been involved in could have been resolved easily if somebody had called me as soon as they noticed the issue or thought they, they didn't understand something because you know, the documentation hadn't been complete when they received it or something like that. You know, don't be afraid to pick up the phone, call the people just to, to ask like hey, can you help me understand this a little bit better? But also just thinking through creatively about how you're doing lighting controls design will improve how you do the application and address end users needs. I mean, if the end user is just like, I don't care about my lighting control system, I bet you that that is incorrect. And when it comes down to it and that person is sitting in their office fiddling with their light switch, they will immensely about their expensive lighting control system that they dumped money into. So it's. But in that regard it's also just sort of a creativity and conversation. You know, how do you ask the right questions? It's not, you know, what do you want 0 to 10 volt or dolly? That's the wrong question to ask an end user. The right question to ask is, you know, how are you using this space? How do you plan to use the space in 10 years? You know, these sorts of conversations that are open ended allow the end user to really just kind of talk about what they know because they don't know 0-10- volt or Dall E. And there's no point teaching them about that if you don't understand the project parameters as it is. I don't know if I missed.
- [47:51]
A
Yeah, no, no, that was great. And the only other thing I would say is on top of that, it's not just the end user. Like if you're in retail and you're in restaurant, you really have to think through the user experience from the patron's point of view, right? We've all been to the restaurant that all of a sudden it's, you know, depending on when you get there at dinner time and the sun's going down and you see, because everyone notices. I can't just be me. Everyone notices because you always see heads go up like a bunch of furry dogs, right? And all of a sudden you see loads start moving. And you see that side of the restaurant gets dim and then that side and then over there and then the light over your table get dim, but it got too dim. So they bring it back up a little bit because there's 8,000 switches on the wall behind the back corner and you get some guy peeking out around a corner trying to figure it out. And like you really have to think through that experience for your guests too. If you want to be a high end venue, high end whatever, you have high end clientele, whatever your user experience that you're going for. I know it seems silly, but the idea of just being able to press a button or not because it's automated based on sunset and you can do that, right, Based on time of day and automate that, we're going to have a three minute fade or a five minute fade on the lighting at sunset and the guests don't even notice that a change has really happened. But all of a sudden they realize it's slightly different just because it got a little darker out and the settings a little more intimate. But it wasn't this dramatic shift. So. And that applies in so many different venues and people don't realize it retail. And I mean there's a lot of designers out here, I'm sure, who do retail and it's, it's so important that how you do the lighting and the lighting control in specific areas for the products you're trying to highlight, right? And this is where, especially for stores who like to change up their flow, right, from month to month, season to season, that's where Having a digital system is so amazing because now we're not just necessarily throwing extra fixtures in an area to brighten up that focus point through digital programming, we can just make those changes and not have to go through and make physical changes all the time. There's a lot of applications that you have to think through based on the user experience you're trying to provide. Everyone nowadays is trying to find some advantage, some leg up. Am I saying that lighting controls is going to give you that advantage in leg up? No, but it's, it's working through that thought process. Right. Of. It's all of the little things. It's all of the little touches that you can make with a customer and that's just one of them. So there is a reason to think through your lighting control system. It's. It's not, it's not just switches on the wall anymore. And there's good reason for it.
- [50:46]
B
Absolutely.
- [50:47]
A
All right, I will close us out and just, I will just say I. It is so glad to, you know, so glad to be back. So glad to be with all of you again. So thank you guys for bearing with us and thank you, thank you, thank you. Today's episode is presented by the lca, the Lighting Controls Academy and Arc Light Summit.
- [51:06]
B
And it's also financially supported by the national association of Innovative lighting distributors or nailed. Check out our website. Lightingcontrolspodcast.com got all of our episodes and a whole lot more. But also huge shout out to our sponsor for this episode. We really cannot do this without your support. MaxLite and their C Max lighting controls platform. If you want that dynamic lighting solution, they have awesome controls ready luminaires that take that USB C port device and you can add motion sensing, daylight sensing or just give it individual controllability without any of the sensor requirements so that you have that dynamic network of lighting fixtures and controls ready to go. Whether it is a simple local control solution or it's a complete networked building wide olution, highly recommend. Maxlite.com Cmax thank you for joining us and Ron, thank you. This was a great conversation.