Episode 125 - When You Hear Hoofbeats, Don’t Expect Zebras with David Fox

Summary

Lighting Controls Podcast – Episode 125

Title: When You Hear Hoofbeats, Don’t Expect Zebras with David Fox
Date: March 6, 2026
Hosts: Ron Kuszmar & C. Webster Marsh
Guest: David Fox

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep-dive into the art and science of troubleshooting lighting control systems. Industry veteran David Fox returns to the podcast, sharing decades of wisdom from architectural and entertainment lighting fields. Through memorable stories and practical advice, David and the hosts break down troubleshooting philosophy, soft skills, best practices, and common pitfalls—emphasizing communication, system knowledge, personal limitations, and customer rapport. If you’re in the business of solving technical problems, this conversation provides the tools and mindset to become not just a better troubleshooter, but a more trusted industry partner.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who Is David Fox?

(02:31–03:52)

• 27+ years in lighting (entertainment, architectural)
• Former leader at ETC: technical support, customer service, training/documentation
• Now runs Wingman Technical and Creative, consulting and writing

“I've been working in and around in the entertainment and architectural lighting industry for what I like to say is long and enough that I can remember the days before DMX, but short enough that I still can lose the occasional.”
— David Fox (02:31)

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2. Troubleshooting: Mindset and Skills

(05:35–13:21)

• Troubleshooting isn’t about instantly knowing product details, it’s a process—organize first, don’t just jump to answers.
• Knowledge of technique is as important as product knowledge.
• Everyone troubleshoots daily (e.g., navigating a hotel room in the dark), but those skills vanish under stress.

“Troubleshooting is not necessarily a full range of product knowledge. ... Knowing how to break down what you’re hearing, that is the hard part.”
— David Fox (05:35)

Top Troubleshooting Tips (David’s “Top 8”)

• Get organized before acting (tools, thoughts, environment)
• Make the customer partner in the solution
• Adjust technical language to the listener’s level
• Always clarify the real issue—not just symptoms

“Make the customer or the person who's coming to you part of the solution and not part of the problem.”
— David Fox (09:22)

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3. Clarifying Symptom vs. Problem

(13:21–20:58)

• The initial complaint (“my lights don’t work”) is usually a symptom, not the root problem.
• The person reporting a problem may not be the one who encountered it; trace the report chain backwards.
• Ask: “Has it ever worked?” and “What is it supposed to do?”
• Many building systems have operated incorrectly for years without anyone addressing minor issues.

“The lights in the ballroom didn’t turn on is what is being reported in the email. But what actually happened was the janitor walked in and went to push the button on the station and it fell off the wall... Let’s clarify the problem.”
— David Fox (15:15)

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4. The Power of Simplicity: Occam’s Razor & ‘Hoofbeats, Not Zebras’

(22:09–34:43)

• Most problems are simple (wrong button, unplugged cable); don’t overcomplicate.
• Classic rule: “When you hear hoofbeats, don’t expect zebras.”
• Famous “replace the fuse over and over” story: don’t repeat the same action mindlessly.
• Never bypass safety mechanisms—fuses and safeties exist for a reason.

“Lighting systems are complicated and there's nothing that we are doing as an industry that is making them simpler... But the reality is nine times out of ten, when you have a problem, it's probably a simple thing as opposed to something super complicated.”
— David Fox (22:56)

“When you hear hoofbeats, don't expect zebras, right?... Look for the obvious things first.”
— David Fox (23:09)

“The first answer was: stop replacing fuses.”
— David Fox (25:17)

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5. Divide & Conquer—and How Not to Get Lost

(25:58–34:43)

• Change one thing at a time; otherwise, you’ll never know what fixed it.
• Tackle problems starting with the part people touch first.
• Sometimes, the best troubleshooting technique is to step away—take a moment, clear your head, and re-approach.

“Divide and conquer the system... Start your troubleshooting by suspecting the parts people touch first.”
— David Fox (34:43)

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6. Soft Skills & Active Listening

(35:53–47:01)

• Most troubleshooting is remote—through people, not with your own hands.
• Avoid talking over or under someone’s head—adjust your explanations.
• Practice active listening: hear what the person actually needs (sometimes just reassurance or a “woobie,” not just a solution).
• It’s okay to have to “phone a friend” or admit you need more info.

“Troubleshooting is not an easy skill. It is truly an art. And not everybody can do it.”
— C. Webster Marsh (35:53)

“Your job... is not to know the answer to every single question. It’s to know where to go to look for the resources to find that answer.”
— David Fox (55:29)

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7. Boundaries, Safety, and Comfort Level

(49:15–51:45)

• Never bypass safeties, never ask someone to work beyond their comfort or competence.
• “Hard stop” if asked to do something unsafe or unfamiliar.

“Never go past your own personal level of comfort... If you’re afraid of heights, don’t climb a ladder... That’s a hard stop.”
— David Fox (50:00)

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8. Documentation = Power

(47:21–53:06)

• Begin by gathering all documentation—manuals, napkin sketches, specs.
• Best techs keep manuals at hand and verify details, even after years of experience.

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9. The Value of Patience and Asking for Help

(53:06–57:47)

• No one knows it all—admitting what you don’t know is a strength.
• Use “I don’t know, I’ll find out and call back” to manage customer expectations and buy time.

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10. Triage and Timeline Setting

(59:13–60:52)

• In critical or time-limited situations, define what’s a must-fix versus what can wait
• Set expectations with the customer and offer temporary solutions as needed.

“Triage and expectation setting... What do we need to meet your immediate timeline?... And then we’ll solve the other problems.”
— David Fox (59:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Make the customer or the person who's coming to you part of the solution and not part of the problem.”
  — David Fox (09:22)

• “Look for the obvious things first. When you hear hoofbeats, don’t expect zebras.”
  — David Fox quoting Steve Terry (23:09)

• “Your job as a troubleshooter... is not to know the answer to every single question. It's to know where to go to look for the resources to find that answer.”
  — David Fox (55:29)

• “Never go past your own personal level of comfort.”
  — David Fox (50:00)

• “Stay calm. Validate their concerns and their feelings because they are very stressed in that moment, and you need to help them through that.”
  — C. Webster Marsh (57:48)

• “Just get organized first.”
  — David Fox (61:03)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• (02:31) — David Fox’s career journey and introduction
• (05:35) — Troubleshooting as a process, not just knowledge
• (09:22) — Making the customer part of the solution
• (13:21) — Clarify symptoms versus problems
• (22:56) — “When you hear hoofbeats, don’t expect zebras”
• (25:17) — The fuse anecdote—don’t repeat bad fixes
• (34:43) — Divide-and-conquer and starting with user-facing components
• (35:53) — Soft skills: why troubleshooting isn’t easy for everyone
• (47:21) — Documentation as a first troubleshooting step
• (49:15) — Safety, comfort levels, and hard stops
• (55:29) — The most important support skill: knowing where to find answers
• (57:48) — The importance of calm, validation, and patience
• (59:13) — Triage, temporary fixes, and expectation management
• (61:03) — Closing thoughts

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Takeaways & Practical Advice

• Approach troubleshooting as both a technical and a human process.
• Clarify and define the real problem; don’t waste time on symptoms alone.
• Start with the obvious, don’t assume complexity.
• Change one variable at a time.
• Safety is non-negotiable—never bypass designed protections or your own limitations.
• Good documentation and self-awareness are your friends.
• Communication—both technical and empathetic—is essential.
• It’s OK (and wise) to ask for help.
• Set clear timelines and differentiate between emergencies and long-standing issues.
• Always bring calm and patience to stressful tech scenarios.

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Summary by Podcast Summarizer GPT

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Radio Rental.

[B]

The scariest stories you've ever heard in your life, all told by real people. And off we go. This wasn't a human being that I saw. There's something here in this house, something out of this world.

[A]

There was a woman moving through the hall.

[B]

I stepped back and I was completely alone. Radio Rental is available now. Listen for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors, advertisers or presenters. Advertising does not imply endorsement by the sponsors and presenters.

[C]

Hey guys, and welcome back to the Lighting Controls podcast. We have a fantastic guest for you today who is a great dear friend of ours and probably previously been on the show as well. But before we jump into the conversation, let me take a minute to remind everyone. Today's episode is presented by the lca,

[A]

the Lighting Controls Academy and is financially supported by the national association of Innovative lighting distributors, or Nailed. Check out our website, lightingcontrolspodcast.com Got all of our episodes and a whole lot more. But also huge shout out to our sponsor for this episode. We really cannot do this without your support. And as I emphasized in our previous episode episode, we do select our sponsors. We're not just grabbing everybody off the street and asking them to pay money for an episode. So MW Connect, who is our sponsor for this episode? High Quality Lighting Control Solution. They are an award winning Bluetooth mesh solution for lighting controls. They partner with other groups to really provide high quality devices and software so that you can really get your project going and meeting the needs of the the project and the stakeholders for that project. I really encourage you to check them out. If you're unfamiliar with them or you may know them by their previous name, Mick Wong. They rebranded as mwconnect. So check them out. Mwconnect us to see more. They have a whole lot of content on their website that's worth checking out even if you are familiar with them. But let's get into the conversation. So today we have David who is a returning guest. But David, just for those who have not seen or heard the episodes that you've been on before, do you mind just giving us a quick breakdown on who you are and what you do?

[B]

Not a problem. Can you hear me okay?

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

I was showing up as muted. Sorry, we'll fix this in post. Hi everybody, my name is David Fox. I have been working in and around in the entertainment and architectural lighting industry for what I like to say is Long and enough that I can remember the days before dmx, but short enough that I still can lose the occasional. I've been in this business since conversation and competition for about 27 years. I spent a bunch of years as an installer, field service manager, programmer. Then for about 27 years I worked for ETC. I was in charge of their technical support departments, their customer service departments, and then ultimately training and documentation, building their online learning portal and creating all the training for their authorized service providers. In September I decided it was time to head off on a new adventure and am seeking different, different fun experiences under a new company. Wingman Technical and Creative is the company that I formed where I'm doing some freelance consulting and ghost writing and in general finding some new and interesting paths. So that's a bit about me in a nutshell.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's great. And thank you for coming back on the show and congratulations on the new venture.

[B]

Thanks. New ventures are fun.

[A]

Yes. As a company owner myself, it is always an interesting experience going from being gainfully employed to being on your own and trying to operate in this environment, which has a very weird way of approaching lighting controls. And I think, you know, one of the things that I tend to get asked a lot is for troubleshooting assistance. And it's not an easy thing to do to assist somebody like you can troubleshoot stuff yourself very easily, but to help somebody else navigate troubleshooting, something like just for a fun little add to this, last night I got a phone call from my mom who is down in the West Indies dealing with a router that doesn't work on the Internet and trying to help every day, right? Yes. And trying to help her figure out how to ensure that the the plug is secure in and snug in the RJ45 port. And that was just an experience in itself. So, but like, so talking through like, you know, part of what, what we do as lighting control specialists is try to communicate to people who have no idea what they're talking about and helping them understand at least enough so that they can find the solution to the problem they're engaging with. So you know, from your perspective, what's the best way to approach that?

[B]

That's a great question and I agree with you. It's one of troubleshooting can fall into a number of different categories. And I think one of the pitfalls that most people fall into when they think about troubleshooting or problem solving is what they're looking for is a direct solution as opposed to discovering a solution. And this was Something that I picked up and started learning long before I was made a career out of this. And I ultimately started building the career out of it, which is that troubleshooting is not necessarily a full range of product knowledge. I mean, that's important and it's useful, right? You needed to know how that router worked in order to be able to support and help your mom. But at the same time, knowing how to identify a problem and knowing how to break down what you're hearing, that is the hard part. And when I say it's the hard part, it's because it's a thing we all inherently know how to do and immediately forget the moment we are confronted with a problem or a stressful situation, right? I mean, the example that I used to teach this class, I've taught it for years on troubleshooting technique is what I like to think of it as, right? Not, not necessarily answers to a problem, but the techniques of finding those answers and getting yourself set up. You know, the example that I liked to use was, because often I was. The example that I like to use is people troubleshoot every day and they don't think about it, right? You are in a new space. You're in a new hotel room. You wake up at 2 o' clock in the morning. You need to use the bathroom. You are in troubleshooting mode, right? Because everything that you're familiar with is in a different place. Which side of the bed am I on? Where's the light switches? Which side of the room is the bathroom in? Where's the light switch to the bathroom? All of these different things. You go into troubleshooting mode and you don't even think about it. And it becomes kind of this subconscious thing. And those are the things that people forget. Those are the skill sets that you forget you have when someone calls you and says, none of the lights are working and we need to have the system up and running immediately or help. My router's gone down. Or it's 11:50pm on New Year's Eve, we're sitting on top of a building and we can't make the ball drop. We need a solution right this minute. And that's when everybody's brain just goes poof. And everything jumps to the side, right? And you're like, well, I don't know, I'm going to. I'm going to run around in circles and, and do a bunch of different things. And that's when I talked about soft skills. And when I started teaching this class about soft skills, that's where I really wanted. That's where I try to help people focus back to these tips. And I'm happy to walk through kind of what my top eight are in terms of walking through it, because these are the things that as soon as I say them, and everybody that's listening to the podcast, if you're on the edge of your seat, like, oh, my gosh, he's going to give me the keys to the answer. I'm going to say all these things, and you're going to be like, well, yeah, that all sounds really easy, but it's, it's. I cannot stress this enough. These are the things that jump out of everybody's head the minute they're actually confronted by solving a problem. And so, you know, the first one really is to organize. Get yourself organized. You've been confronted with a thing, someone has given you a problem. And I'll talk more about the differences between a symptom and an actual problem, because those are really fuzzy at times. Yeah, but. But, you know, before you even jump into providing anything, right. Get yourself set up and organized. Organize your thought process. Make sure you have your tools handy. You know, all these different kinds of things. Get yourself set up and ready to go. Something that I used to stress to co workers and when I was managing technical support, something that I told them all the time is make the customer or the person who's coming to you part of the solution and not part of the problem. And that falls into a number of different categories. Right. You had there were, you know, I'll pick on you for a moment, Webster. There were a lot of ways you could have approached that problem with your mom when you were talking to her. And one of the things that can get really easy to do is to talk down to people without realizing that you're doing it. We're technical people. We work in a technical industry. We have an expectation that everybody that's touching every lighting system that exists on the planet knows everything about that lighting system. And it's an easy assumption to make because that's what we deal with all day long.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're installing these. We understand the technical pieces of it, but. But most of the reality is most people don't. And the people that are calling you because they don't understand how things work, or they, they're having a problem, are looking to you for help, and you can either make them a partner in solving it, or you can make them an enemy. And now you have two problems to solve. Right. Because now you're fighting with them. You're fighting with the person who wants your help. And that is always a difficult situation to find yourself in. You know, one of the phrases that I used a lot, especially when I'm doing stuff over the phone, is I need you to be my eyes and hands.

[C]

Yeah. Yep.

[B]

Because you've now clarified exactly how you're establishing this relationship and what you're capable of doing and what you aren't. So you're empowering the person with the problem to be part of the solution. I need you to do these things, you know, be my eyes, be my hands or something. I'll also say, because again, you have, you know, we live in a world of technology and initials and acronyms and all kinds of different pieces is, you know, you. And sometimes you have to be really careful about either talking over someone's head.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And making them feel stupid or talking under somebody's level of technology and making them think that you think they're stupid. So one of the things I would often say, and I recommend other people say as well in these scenarios, is I don't know what, you know, I'm going to start explaining something, but if I'm talking about this at too low of a level or too high of a level, you need to tell me, and then let's rephrase this conversation. Right. So, you know, I could start by saying, okay, I need you to go look on the back of the router and I need you to check where the RJ45 is plugged into and what port it's connected to. And either they get that or it gets really quiet on the other end. Okay. Okay, let's, let's, let's back up. You know, what are you looking at? What's in your hand right now? Tell me what you see on the back of this box. You know, those kinds of things. So, you know, getting that down and really making people part of the solution, the next thing. And again. And some of these, they come off really simple, but they're really important is to clarify the issues. Clarify, you know, identify. Separating symptom from problem is a really, really big thing to fix. Right. The lights are flickering and flashing is what someone will tell you. I'm pushing the button and it's not working. I can't get. I can't get lights to go. Right. These, these are all symptoms. They're not problems. And if you start trying to solve the symptom as opposed to solving the problem, you can spend a whole lot of time doing a lot of things without actually fixing something.

[A]

Well, it's like with medicine, you know.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Okay, my head hurts. Take some Tylenol. That fixes a symptom. But is the headache the result of having the flu or something like that?

[B]

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, right. My head hurts. I haven't slept in two days and I don't drink water because why would you. Right. But my head really hurts all the time.

[A]

Okay, maybe hydrate.

[B]

Maybe hydrate. Right. Look, look for. Separate the symptoms from the problem. You know, the other thing that often I remind people of, and this is something that we all run into, is the person who's coming to you asking for help may or may not be the person who ever who actually encountered the problem. Right. And this, this becomes, you know, from an. In an entertainment. And some of this comes from something. And I think I might have said this in a previous podcast, but it's worth repeating, right? Is if you're coming to this from a background in entertainment lighting, and I know a lot of your audience is, and I know the three of us are coming from that area. Right. Is into a world of architectural and commercial lighting. Part of the thing to recognize is that the customer that you're working with has changed.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And I saw this massively when I was working in technical support, which was early on when all I was dealing with was entertainment lighting problems. The person that you were talking to owned their facility, and when they picked up when they had a problem, they had a phone in one hand and a tool bag in the other, and they were committed to spending all day. They brought their lunch, and they were ready to spend as much time as needed to solve the problem. And then as more architectural and as we started doing more architectural in our line of work, that customer changed to somebody who had a phone in one hand and a key ring in the other, and they would use the phone to call you and the key ring to open up the room where the problem existed. And that was where they were ready to go to start troubleshooting. And maybe that answer was going to be, I'm willing to spend some time doing this. And maybe that answer was going to be, okay, I've opened the door, now send somebody. Right? So that opens up a completely different level of what's going on. And that person has no idea what the problem was and can't articulate it other than it doesn't work. And, you know, today's larger systems, we look at a different scenario, which is you've got someone who's received an email from the person that had the Keys that talked to the person that saw the problem, and now they're calling you. So, you know, clarifying the issues is, you know, who saw the problem and talk to that person. Get through the three layers of infrastructure to actually talk to the person that saw the problem. Because the lights in the ballroom didn't turn on is what is being reported in the email. But what actually happened was the janitor walked in and went to push the button on the station and it fell off the wall, and that's what needs to get fixed. Okay.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Let's clarify the problem. Right.

[A]

And I'm just curious, you know, having experienced this side of the world of customer support and being on that other end of the phone call, what are the most common symptoms that you get that you heard but weren't really the issue? Even though it was like, no, this is the problem. Like, I'm certain this is the problem. And you're like, whoa, no, no, no, no. Like, dial it back.

[B]

The number one symptom that everyone is convinced is a problem. And again, this is going to. It's a simple one, but it's top of the list is the light won't turn on or the light won't turn off. And that's where it starts.

[A]

Right. The light fixture is probably not the problem in that situation.

[B]

Exactly. The way I like to refer to it is I can't make lights go. Okay, well, that's definitely a problem. Right? That's definitely a thing. But what does make lights go mean? And what do you mean by I can't make lights go? Is it that the button isn't working? Is it that the light isn't turning on even though the button is working? What exactly are we talking about here? When something won't turn on or won't turn off?

[C]

And it's. Those symptoms can be so. Right. Like, I had that call today, this morning. It was an administrator who called. Not the technician who was actively working on the problem. An administrator. And I got the. The. I'm only. I'm going to say it just because it happens. This is the answer that we. This is the one we get the most. We get the phone call and they say my. Etc. Isn't working.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. All the time. Okay.

[C]

Now I have to figure, right now I have to figure out where to start. Like, what is the first question I now have to ask to even try to begin to understand where the real problem is? Right. And that was literally this morning's call. Help. My. Etc. Isn't working. Okay, what exactly isn't happening right now.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Describe for me what you did. That's one of the times where I'll start asking some questions which ties into the next two pieces. Part of clarifying the issues, and this ties in bigly, especially with more architectural systems. And as we're moving more and more into code compliant and automatically controlled systems is one of the big things that I always ask is, has it ever worked and what is it supposed to do? Because sometimes what people perceive as a problem isn't a problem. Right. I'm walking into the room and the lights are turning off all the time. Well, yeah, there's an occupancy sensor and they're going to do that. And maybe the lights were stuck on because the system reset and the occupancy sensor didn't reset itself. And you walked into the room, which now triggered the occupancy sensor to reset, and then you walked back out and the lights turned off. So now you have this weird problem where sometimes the lights don't turn off correctly, but that's not the actual problem. Right. The problem is something happened that caused this. So, you know, that's, that's one part of it. But the other thing is, has it ever worked? And one of the things that surprises me often when I ask that question is how many people answer by saying no. Right. We've had this facility, we've been in this facility for three years. These buttons have never worked. Right. They clearly must be broken. Let's fix it. Well, coming at it from the it's never worked correctly is a totally different set of problems to solve.

[C]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

Well, and I think that that actually emphasizes something that while in the entertainment world isn't a common thing in the architectural world, you know, buildings may function for years without addressing an issue that should have been addressed on day one.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And part of that is because of the fact that you don't have people who are like, I'm gonna figure this out. But the other thing is that lighting controls is just one piece of a massive equation. Whereas. And it's not even a big piece, a very small piece in a lot of people's worlds. Whereas in entertainment it's the opposite. Like, if you don't have the lights on, then you don't have a show.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Right. The things people are willing to accept as normal or. Okay. Is a wide scale. Right. Until somebody decides it's super important. Right. One of the things that I can think of off the top of my head because it happened a few times were time clocks that weren't set correctly. And for three years, nobody cared that the lights in the lobby turned off an hour earlier than they were supposed to, right? Or they noticed, but it was just like, okay, well that just happened. And we'll just go manually turn them on and then we'll, we'll turn them off again later when we need to, right? Until somebody new shows up and is like, well, wait a minute, that's not supposed to work like that. And let's, let's go in and fix it. And you get the phone call saying the lights in the lobby are turning off too early. And it's easy to assume, okay, well, I turned this building on and it's been there for three years. And clearly this is a new thing. But asking that question, right? Has it ever worked looking for the obvious things? Oh, yeah, no, it's, it's been like this ever since you left. Well, it might not have been you, but we'll, we'll go with the universal you, right? It's been like this ever since you left. And, and it's like that. It's like, okay, well, that's a different thing.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Let's, let's solve it that way, right? Looking. Looking for the obvious is another big one. This is something that I stress often. And two of my biggest mentors in troubleshooting and I got to give shout outs to both of them were David north from etc. And Steve Terry, both from etc. And in his time at Production Arts prior to that, exceptionally brilliant people with amazing troubleshooting skills. And they both, they both say, said something very similar to don't you know that I distilled down to look for the obvious, which was, you know, David North's answer was, you know, Occam's razor, always right. Look for the simple solutions. And Steve Terry being, being Steve Terry had a much, much more flowery way of explaining it, which I also use as well, which is when you hear hoofbeats, don't expect zebras, right? And so it's like, look for the obvious things first. And this is the one thing have a tendency to forget when they start troubleshooting problems. Lighting systems are complicated and there's nothing that we are doing as an industry that is making them simpler. That's a whole other podcast, right? But the reality is nine times out of ten, when you have a problem, it's probably a simple thing as opposed to something super complicated, right?

[C]

Look for turn it off and turn it back on.

[B]

Turn it off and turn it back on. Right? And, and, and does that solve the problem? And I always caution people with that a little bit, right? So, so turn it off and turn it back on is, is one way to look at it. But if that solves the problem, great. If the problem comes back, turning it on and off again is the way to keep going with it. Right? Change one. Yeah, yeah, this is, you know, one of, one of my other, other tenants here, if you will, is change one thing at a time and change it only once, right? One of the stories that I used to tell in class that I'll tell here is back in the day I was doing technical support and one of the things etc offers, as you all know, is 24 hour support on an emergency pager. And everybody in phone support takes it in turn to be on that call and to take those calls. So phone goes off, 3 o' clock in the morning, I pick it up, I call the person back. They said they were having some problems. And the person on the other end of the phone who shall remain nameless says, oh, David, I'm so glad it's you. I know you can help me solve this problem. I'm like, okay, well, no pressure there. They said, I need you to help me. I'm in the middle of, I don't even remember what town, but I need you to help me figure out where I can get additional fuses for my sensor cem because it's, I don't have any more. And I'm like, okay, well what do you mean you don't have any more? I said, well, I carry five in my kit and I got here and the fuse was blown. So I replaced the fuse and it blew.

[C]

Oh boy.

[B]

And then I replaced the fuse and it blew.

[C]

Oh boy.

[B]

And then I replaced the fuse. You see where I'm going with this, right? And now I'm out of fuses. He's like, what do you think I should do? And my first answer was stop replacing fuses, right? There's, there's a different problem here, right? Look for the obvious things change, only change it one time if the fuse blows a second time. It's not that you have a bad batch of fuses, right? Yeah, there's another issue. And it turned out that there was a short in two wires to the sensor backup station that were shorting against each other in a piece of conduit. And that's why we were running into the problem, right? And then that, so that, that kind of broke us through figuring out what was going on. But yeah, looking for the obvious. The other thing I tell people often, especially in more complicated systems at the Divide and conquer.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Right. If you walk in and the lights aren't working and you walk into the room and you push the button on the station and you don't see what you're expecting, so you walk into the dimmer room and you reset everything and then you go up to the light and you unplug it and you plug it back in and it works. What did you fix?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

No idea.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So when the problem comes back, what do you need to go touch? No idea. Right. But the other part of it is. Go ahead.

[A]

Well, I think the other thing that's really interesting about your fuse story is that that's a safety mechanism. And while the fix could have also been, and I'm not recommending anybody ever consider this as a fix, they could have just bypassed the fuse. Yeah, yeah. And that is a very common fix, not just in lighting controls, but in any complex system. I was actually watching an interesting YouTube video recently on an escalator disaster that happened because they had bypassed all of the safety mechanisms that were triggering regularly. And instead of fixing the issue, which was that the motor was going bad or something, they just bypassed the safety mechanisms. And so they had a huge systemic failure and this disaster happened. Never, never bypass a safety mechanism.

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Regardless of what you think the problem is, never bypass a fuse or anything else that's designed for safety purposes.

[B]

Yeah. Great rule to follow. Right. The, the fuse is there for a reason, right?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

The fail safe is there for a reason. The, the heat chain is there. All these things that are put in place specifically to prevent issues. Don't walk into the theater and say, oh, well, it's not dark enough, so let's just mask over all the emergency bug eye lights because we don't want to hurt the shot.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Right. You know, everybody who's ever worked in the film industry or the television industry, you're all nodding right now. And I'm not going to say anymore because we're being recorded, but you're absolutely right. Right. Be aware that safety issues are there. Right. And as I was supporting the issue, my answer wasn't, well, let's go. You know, what kind of gum do you have in your pocket and what's the wrapper look like? Let's fix this fuse issue. It was, okay, we need to figure out why these fuses are blowing. Right. Something is happening that is causing this problem. And there is an obvious solution here that we have passed over. Right. And that's a Big thing to look at it. One of the things Steve Terry used to talk about, and it sticks in my head a lot because this, I think, ties into exactly what this person ran into and fits in. Well, here is the French have a great term which I'm gonna butcher horribly because I don't speak French very well, which is edifix. And that translates roughly to it must be. And this is a philosophy that people can run into when they are troubleshooting or running into a problem, which is you develop an idea, that sense starts to dominate in your mind as being the cause. It becomes a fixed idea or an incessant return. So you keep coming back to the same theme or scenario without actually having any proof of it. And I read about this term because I was reading an article in an airline magazine, not on an airline, but an article about airlines. I go weird places sometimes. Anyway, but they were dissecting and talking about an airplane crash. And what happened was in. In the course of the flight, they were in a. The plane was in a very cloudy, foggy environment, and so they couldn't see the ground. And they couldn't see that they were relying on instruments only. And the instruments were telling them that they were plummeting towards the ground. And they were convinced it was instrument failure, and so convinced it was instrument failure that they spent the entire time that they could have saved themselves and everybody on the plane trying to fix the instruments as opposed to trying to solve the problem of we are plummeting towards the ground because they were convinced that it was not. That that was the problem they needed to solve. And that's an easy path to fall into. Right. You. Is to get stuck in this rut or this ED fix of. It's got to be the fuse, Right? These fuses keep blowing because it's got to be the fuse.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Well, and I think that that also that that story really hits another point, which is really interesting, which is just because something says it's doing it or just because it says something is a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that it's accurate.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

But at the same time, you should always observe for yourself. You know, if they had actually looked up and seen that their. Their craft is actually not parallel with the horizon, but actually diving.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They might have actually saved themselves in that regard, too. And. And this does happen a lot where somebody is like, well, you know, I push a button and it said that it responded, and it's like, yeah, but there is a whole chain of events that needs to Happen between that button and the response that you're looking for. Yeah.

[B]

Color changing fixtures that are turning onto the wrong color. Right. But have multiple control sources. This is a big one with streaming ECN or Artnet or network controlled systems where you may have a show control device and a button station that are sending two pieces of conflicting information that are being interwoven into a single answer. Right. So one says blue, one says red, light turns purple. The problem is my light's turning on the wrong color. It's got to be something in the light. Let's go reset the fixture. It's still purple. Let's call the manufacturer because clearly their fixture is broken.

[C]

Yep, yep.

[B]

Right. But again, these are the things that fall out of people's heads when they go to troubleshoot. Right. It's just, you have to sometimes just take a minute. One of the, you know, a story that I used to tell in class and a piece of advice I give and somebody actually mentioned this to me a couple of weeks ago when they were calling me because they were like, hey, I solved this problem and I wanted to share it with you because people tell me about it is one of the things that I tell. I used to say, I used to smoke, I don't smoke anymore. But I would use that as an excuse when confronted with problems where I needed time to think to say, hey, it's been a long day, I'm just, I need to walk outside, I'm gonna grab a cigarette. Right. And really it wasn't that I needed to smoke that instant, but it was that I wanted to clear my head and move away from things and give myself some thinking space. Right. So if you're a smoker, that's a great way to kind of clear your mind and get, get yourself re centered. If you're not a smoker for 15 minutes, go be a virtual smoker. Right. If you have people that are following you because you've developed this train of people that are invested in you solving their problem, then that's, that's the point where rather than walking outside to have the virtual cigarette, I'll be walking towards the bathroom. And if they follow you into the bathroom, that happened too, then that's when I'll typically walk into a stall, Right. Because at that point I can reasonably create that break where if they're going to stand outside of the stall, I can kind of look at him and be like, my friend, I'm going to need him in here. But it's really, really giving yourself that moment. Right. Because it gets really easy to get stuck in that loop and not be able to get yourself out of it because you're looking at the expectant customer or the ticking clock or the other things that you're trying to work your way through before you're leaving site for that day, or any of the other things that are distracting you to just get your head clear. Right. Sometimes you need to reorganize. Sometimes you need to back yourself up for a second and think about it and go, you know, look outside. Be, hey, it's the lights. It's still bright outside. That's nice. I came into the. I came into the space when it was daylight, and it's still daylight. Winning day or, okay, what have I tried? What haven't I tried? Right. Let's take a minute here to get reorganized. I thought through all of these things. What did I miss? Okay. They said the light keeps turning purple. I don't think it's the light. Right. Where can I go? What can I look at instead? What's. What's controlling the system? How is it supposed to work?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

How is it. How is it set up and be working through? Right. Divide and conquer the system. And sometimes, you know, it's easy to look at that. Right. In a lot of systems, you have a button that's our tactile thing that somebody's touching. You have a thing that's regulating the power in the data, and then you have the actual thing that light's coming out of the. Right. So when you divide and conquer the system, what I tell people is start with either, you know, start by. Start your troubleshooting by suspecting the parts people touch first. And when you're trying to figure out which pieces of that to attack and look at, take the lazy approach and go to the one that's easiest to reach. Right. If you walk in and the lights aren't turning on correctly, the first thing you want, the first thing to do is look at the things people touch, as opposed to saying, okay, I can't fix this until we rent scaffolding so I can get up to the light in the ceiling.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That may not be where the problem is. Right. If I can't get into the locked door where the dimmer room is, there's other things that I can troubleshoot while somebody goes and solves the problem of finding the missing key. So, you know, look. Look for those pieces and put that together.

[C]

Yeah. And I think it's so easy. It's not easy. I feel like it's easy because we're it feels easy because we're talking about it like it's easy. But I think what a lot of people may not. If you've never been on the tech support end of something where you don't know the system, you can't see the system, and you're dealing with someone who may or may not be in a panic. Troubleshooting is not an easy skill. Right. It is truly an art. And not everybody can do it. So we may talk about it like it's easy, but it's not. And it is not for everybody. This is why not everybody does technical support. Right? Like, this is not calling Comcast and getting your support where they're reading a script. Right. This is very, very different.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And there's only so much like we can go through the steps, but there's only so much you can teach. I think this is one of those skills where you're either really good at it or you're not. You can be fall in between. Right. But you're either really good at it or you're not. Is really. Tech support can be a very complicated thing. And it is. It's. We may use the same components on every system, but every system is different. And that's where this gets so complicated.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think to expand on that, you can be really good and really bad at it at the same time. Right? If it's, if it's a lighting system or if it's a computer system, I'm really good at it. When my car won't start, I suck.

[C]

Fair.

[B]

And I know all the things that I, you know, I can follow every single one of these steps that I've been talking about, but I don't know enough about, you know, I still can't make the car work.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't know what I need to do. So. So you can, you can be both of those at the same time. But, but keeping the mindset and, and being, being able to think through it, comes to, you know, the next piece in, in my, in my, in my list here, and I'm glad you brought it up, which is to ask for help, right? Always ask for help. It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter how many years you've been doing this. You could have been the one that designed the system, specified the system, installed the system, configured the system, touches the system every single day. That doesn't mean you don't need to ask for help. Right? You're going to hit a theoretical and realistic limit of what you know or what you understand. And when you hit that point, don't be afraid to pick up the phone and call and reach out to get the assistance that you need. Because there's somebody out there that knows more than you do. And that's a hard pill for a lot of people in our industry to swallow sometimes. Is there somebody that knows more than you do or you have to also accept with them that when you call and ask for help, that there needs to be a certain degree of grace and patience that you need to offer to the person that you are reaching out to. Right. You know, we've all run into this scenario. Somebody calls you stressed and angry and frustrated because they've spent seven hours trying to solve the problem before they finally picked up the phone to call you and you're there. Right. And you're trying to make them part of the solution and not part of the problem. And you know, what's the first thing that you ask? Right? Is it plugged in and is it turned on? And you can feel the flames shooting out of the phone at you as you ask that question. Question. Right. Because suddenly they've become like the world. They're frustrated. Right. That's not because you think they're dumb and it becomes a scenario to work through. Right. One of the things that I always ask in that question, especially if I can tell somebody is stressed, is I won't ask them, is it plugged in. I will ask them, what is it plugged into? And that is a much gentler way that gives everybody a decent exit strategy. Right. Because either they can tell you what it's plugged into or, oh, it's not plugged in at all. But that's.

[A]

Yeah. Well, but it also answers multiple questions in one go because.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

You know, most lighting control systems, devices are not connected to just one other device.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so, yeah, okay, if it's power, sure, you're only getting power from one source, but, you know, kind of there is a chain. So it's like, okay, what is the strip of tape light plugged into? Oh, it's plugged into the driver. Great. What's the driver plugged into? And you can kind of follow that chain.

[B]

Absolutely. Where is it plugged in? What is it plugged into? The number of times that. That I ran into lighting control consoles where people had simply plugged the DMX into the wrong port.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Right. Super easy to solve. Right. Same thing with switches and routers these days. Some switches and routers, Every single port does the same thing. And some of them it absolutely doesn't. And sometimes the manufacturers are kind enough to actually note that on the numbering on the back or put a symbol, and sometimes they aren't right. But I ran circles around dealing with a switch at one point because somebody had plugged into the link port as opposed to one of the actual output ports on the switch. So the system wasn't working because no data comes out of that port. Right. That port's designed to be plugged into something else. And asking what it's plugged into as opposed to is it plugged in? Helps solve some of that problem. But again, when you're the one asking for help, and I'll say this to all of us, because we all end up having to call someone and ask for help is give that patience. Right. Because you've been working on the problem for seven hours. The person you're talking to is 30 seconds old in this scenario. Right. They are 100% in catch up mode.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And you know, in a lot of ways, if they can't solve it in the first minute, that's probably a good thing because it means it justifies the seven hours that you've spent running in circles before you reached a point where you needed to call someone.

[A]

But I think the other thing here that maybe people don't acknowledge is what is the timeline that is realistic and expected? Because some people think this needs to be done right now. And yes, yes, zero hour show's gonna go. And in that case it's like, yeah, okay, fine, like this needs to be done now. But in most cases with architectural systems, systems like, if this has been going on for years, why does it need to be fixed immediately?

[B]

Exactly two questions I always try to ask, and I always advise people to ask again. Making people part of the solution and not part of the problem and clarifying, which is, when did it work last and when does it need to work again? Because that lets you establish the time frame and the tone of the conversation that you need to have around it again, it's never worked. It worked yesterday. Everything was working fine until the storm last night. Sometimes you get some good clues about what is or isn't working. It's like, wait a minute, back up, let's talk about the storm last night. Oh yeah, the building got struck by lightning. And okay, we're solving now. I know what problem we're solving right now. I have a whole new symptom set to be looking at. Right.

[A]

But I think that's the other thing about bringing somebody else into this conversation is because they may actually ask questions that are, at the root, the exact same question that you've asked, but they've worded it in a way that just clicks in the person's head in a better way. And they go, oh, like, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've gone to the doctor's office and the doctor asked me, like, the most routine questions. And then just one day, a nurse practitioner comes in and asks pretty much the same question, but just worded differently. And it's like, oh, are you trying to find information about this?

[B]

Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I often will start a conversation when someone's asking me for help by saying, okay, I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna start by asking you a bunch of dumb questions, and then we're gonna get to some smart questions. Right. Is it turned on?

[C]

Yep, yep.

[B]

Right. Let's, let's, let's work our way through some of these pieces. And we know, but, but also getting that idea of when does it need to work next, you know, really gives you that establishable timeline. Because if they're saying, oh, well, yeah, it doesn't work, but we don't, we don't really need this working for a week.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Okay, yes. Let's, let's take a breath here. We're going to talk about a bunch of things, I'm going to give you some homework, and then you're going to call me back in a couple of days. Right? Right. As opposed to, am I, am I talking to you while I'm also buying a plane ticket?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or figuring out who's the closest friend I can call who might be in your vicinity, who I can owe a favor to, say, I need you to go to this site and be my eyes and hands. Because this person needs somebody on, you know, needs somebody there. And I mean, that's another thing for us to recognize Right. When we're in this profession is there are times where what the customer needs is, is a woobie. Right. They need somebody who is physically on site, who is there to say, I'm gonna hold your hand and it's all gonna be okay, and we're gonna make it work, and you didn't do anything wrong, and I'm here to help.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's what they want. Right. It isn't that they need the problem solved. It's they can talk to you on the phone all day long. But what they're saying is, I need somebody to be here. And you're saying to yourself, you do not need me to Be there. I can 100% walk this, walk you through with this on the phone. We can fix this. You can send me, you can email me a copy of your configuration, and I can correct this issue for why your station doesn't work. And if that's not the answer that they want to hear, as far as they're concerned, you're not solving the problem.

[A]

Right. Well, and, and that's, that's part of just a soft skill in general that, that, you know, we could practice better throughout the industry, which is active listening, actually listening to hear what is being said and not making an assumption about what they're saying. And so that's just, it's a skill. It, it takes time to perfect.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

But, yeah, I mean, making the assumption of like, well, no, you don't really need me there. It's like the person's telling you they need you there. It doesn't matter what you think. It's what they said.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And so, okay, like, find out why. But like, you, you don't, you can't just say no. Yeah, wrong about what you think is your need.

[B]

Well, I mean, you can say that and then you don't ever have to worry about talking to them again. Right.

[A]

But we're almost out of time here, so I, I want to, I want to summarize it. I mean, this is really good stuff, especially if there's somebody out there who is interested in getting into a customer support role or troubleshooting. But also just in general, I mean, these are just good skills to practice.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Any, any scenario that you may run into with lighting controls or your life. And I mean, the very first thing is to just collect your thoughts, collect everything that you can. I mean, the first thing that I do when I get brought onto a project is ask, where's the documentation? Give me whatever, you know, napkin note, whatever. Just give me everything that you have. I will comb through it. I don't care, you know, if, you know, 99 of it is mechanical stuff and 1% is what I need, I'll deal with that, but just give me everything. And so that's part of the process, just collecting information. And then you can start going into the, the simple questions of, okay, you know, what, what, what are you doing? How is it acting? How's it supposed to act? You know, fact finding is the key to answering the troubleshooting question.

[B]

I completely agree.

[A]

It's also about how you're engaging that person. You know, how are you asking those questions? Because most of the time when you're troubleshooting a system, it is going to be through another person.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's rarely going to be because you are dealing with it and you've run into the issue. It's because somebody says, I got this email that was from this person who said this, that over there, this thing is not doing the thing that it's supposed to think. And as a result, you're dealing with whatever information you have, but engaging that person, talking to them, listening to what they're trying to convey to you.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Are you personally seeing this happen? No. Can I speak to the person who is seeing this happen? You know, that's part of the process. But as you start to whittle down into that, then you start to actually identifying what the symptoms are.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And then digging into what the actual root cause of the problem is. And personally, I always challenge my assumptions whenever I start getting into that level, because it's like, okay, I can assume that it's this, but that may be wrong. And as I start testing out the parameters of what's going on here, I'm going to be like, no, maybe, maybe that's not it. Maybe it's this. And just getting closer and closer to that answer. But again, I just, I want to emphasize here is really important. Never bypass a safety mechanism. The safety mechanism is there for a purpose.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I would, I would add to that one piece of advice that I give people as well, which is never go past your own personal level of comfort.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Regardless of whether it's a safety mechanism or not. Right.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

You don't. If you're afraid of heights, don't climb a ladder. Yeah. If somebody's asking you to pull out a meter and start opening up boxes and putting your hands into a box and metering things, and it's low voltage. So it's not a question of life safety, but it's just not something you feel comfortable doing. That's a hard stop. Right. And whether, whether you're the one solving the problem or you're, you know, or any of those other things. Right. You're not bypassing safety. You're always following site safety measures. You're not bypassing fuses. If you have to lock out, tag out, by all means. Lockout, tag out. You don't have a lockout. Tagout kit. Hard stop.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you don't know what a lockout or a tagout is, hard stop.

[B]

Hard stop. But don't go past your own level of comfort. Because as soon as you're trying to solve a problem or as soon as you're trying to push a customer to solving a problem that they're not comfortable solving, you're not going to get a good solution. And I picked up on a lot of this because, again, on the phones, we never knew who was going to call. And I still don't always necessarily know who's going to call me for help. And oftentimes, especially in a school, the people that are first encountering the problem are kids. Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And they may be the ones that are calling because kids have cell phones these days. It's crazy. But, you know, so the kid may be the one who's calling you. And be aware of that. Right. Before you're like, okay, well, I need you to open up that relay cabinet and start flipping these switches. Right. That might not be something they're comfortable with. Right. But you don't know that. So. So it's one of those things, you know. A, it's a gauge to check, but B, you're absolutely right in this. Do not bypass anything that is there to keep people alive or to keep the system from exploding.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And so, but like, the other thing there within what you're saying also, is that you need to be knowledgeable. You need to understand your systems, at least enough to be able to understand how the system works.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

What happens when things are connected together and how it should behave normally. You know, the best technicians that I work with will break out the manual every single time they work on something. Even if they've worked on that equipment, you know, a million times before, they will still break it out and just flip to, like a chart or something and be like, yeah, that's right. Okay. Because. Yeah, okay. You know, I. You can memorize stuff all day long, but, you know, it's like, okay, each model number is different and each, you know, there's always going to be variances. And so being aware of where the information is, not necessarily memorizing all the information, but knowing, okay, yes, I know there's a system manual out there that I can break into, and I know somewhat how to navigate it that is super handy. And. And every time I am assisting somebody, I'm like, okay, give me the part number. Give me the piece of information to identify so that I can at least get a sense of where we are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so totally agree.

[B]

I mean, one of the things. And I'm going to read this as a quote because I have it in front of me and I keep it because it's one of the things that David north said And I think it ties directly back into something, what you were just saying, which is you have to know what the product does and then you have to know what it does not do and follow that up with how products work together and then what they are designed or configured to do. Ask the customer what they're trying to accomplish and or what has changed since the last time the system worked. When you have time, step up to your equipment and learn it. Be prepared. This goes for knowledge and gear. Any part can fail at any time. And if something isn't working, start at one end and go to the other. Either define what's working or start with the dead item and work backwards. Look at not only what it may take to fix it, but what the customer's experience is going to be between finding the problem and finding the solution. And I always go back to that. Right. Because that has nothing to do with the specifics of any one product. Right. Or what it can. It's take the time and learn it. Take the time to understand what you're working with. And if you don't know what the pieces are when you first get the call, don't pretend. Right, right. Just say, okay, well let me get some information or let me get a copy. You know, send me the copy of those job prints or I'm going to dig through our records and find. Because we turned this job on, I need to pull up your records and take a look at this or send me the configuration and I'll take a look at it and go from there.

[A]

Yeah, and, and I think, you know, again, it is sort of that comfort level and you need to kind of get a sense of where your knowledge extends to or potentially can grow to within the time frame that you need. And really where you need that help, where you need to phone a friend to assist in. And I call people all the time. Like I've, I've called Ron while I was dealing with projects on a regular basis. Be like, hey, I haven't used this before, can you help me just.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Like, am I doing this right? And it doesn't have to be this huge ordeal.

[C]

Right, Right.

[A]

Literally just be. I just need enough information to make the next step. But knowing where your limitations are and that self awareness is really critical.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people right now feel that if they're going to be put in a position where they need to be doing support or they need to be doing troubleshooting, that it means they have to know everything about everything. And one of the things that I used to stress a lot at etc. And you'll probably hear it from them if you talk to them, because I said it to everybody in phone. Support for over two decades is your job as a troubleshooter. Your job is support is not to know the answer to every single question. It's to know where to go to look for the resources to find that answer.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, I don't know. I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to call you back.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

That is a perfectly acceptable answer. Whether the customer likes that that's what you're talking, what you're saying or not.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And you can still work within their time frame. Right. They need it working this second. That's great. I need you to give me a minute. I need to catch up on this. Let's get back to it. You don't need this working for a couple of days. Fantastic. Let me crack a book and I'll call you back. And give yourself that space to learn it so that you then can support it. And that's troubleshooting. Right. Eventually, over time, you hear enough of the same symptoms that you can diagnose what the problem is with less and less and less information.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Right. And that's, that's where people are suddenly like, oh, I called Ron and I said, lights don't work. And he fixed it in 30 seconds. Right. And it's because, Ron, you've heard that problem 75 times, so you know exactly based on those symptoms, where the problem is and how to fix it. And it's. It's. How do you teach somebody that time?

[C]

Right. Yes.

[B]

Patience. You did the work to break it down to the point where now for you, that's not a problem, that's a series of symptoms that have a diagnosable solution. Right?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Same thing with a doctor. Right?

[C]

Yep. Yeah. I will say the biggest thing is stay calm. Like, if you're listening to this right now and you feel like you could take on the world because of David's calm demeanor and his amazing tone where he just makes us all feel warm and fuzzy. Yes.

[A]

That's.

[C]

That's exactly how you should act when you're on the phone with your customers. You need to stay calm. You need to validate their concerns and their feelings because they are very stressed in that moment, and you need to help them through that. And so there's nothing wrong with that. And like, like they both mentioned, do not be afraid to ask for help. That is that we all do It, I do it. We all every day do it. And no, if you're under the gun and you're on site and someone says I need this working in a half hour, know that you set your own parameters. Okay, I've got a half hour to fix this. That doesn't mean I've got a half hour before I need to call for help. That might mean I have 10 minutes or 15 minutes to try and diagnose this before realistically I need to call for help because I may get stuck on hold. So I need to give myself time to then be able to like not be stuck for 15 minutes waiting on hold. Right. So just know that process, work through it. I can't tell you how many times I've called etc and sat on hold and I may have fixed the problem and the text show, you know, picks up the phone and I go, I'm all set, but thanks. I was just waiting on holding case because I'm dealing with this thing, but we're good. Other times they pick up, you work through the problem together and you continue on. Sometimes it's just nice to have that second person. Right. To help you through. Am I making the right decisions and steps right now? Because this still isn't doing what I expect.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good point. The last piece on that and we could go into bonus rounds for this and talk as long as you want because I can talk about troubleshooting forever. Maybe that's a problem. But one of the other things to look at in some of those scenarios is especially when people are really stressed or you have a very small amount of time and a very large problem to solve is triage and expectation setting. Right. Like what do we. I understand that you. That this is broken. Right. We all agree that this is broken. We all agree that this is going to be. That it's going to take some time to fix. What do we need to meet your immediate timeline? Right. Can we just turn the breakers on and off in the dimmer rack to get you through your show tonight? Can we just, can we go manually force these fixtures on so that you have lights in your conference space and yeah, they're not going to be at the right level. And yes, we all understand that the wall should be prettier, but right now you have 300 people in a very upset bride in your conference in your ballroom and we need to solve that problem.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And then we'll solve the other problems. Right. So let's. Again, I think that part of that also falls into the don't fall so down a rabbit hole of trying to fix a thing that you forget about the overall scenario that you're running into. Right. It is a building. It is full of people. And either the lights are not turning on or the lights are not turning off, both of which could be problems. But what do we need to do to get you through your immediate need so that we can then actually fix the problem that you are encountering?

[C]

Yep. Yep. I love it. David, thank you. Thank you so much. I know everyone got so much out of this and I'm sure everyone feels amazing about troubleshooting right now. Like they could take on the world after listening to us.

[B]

You can take on the world. Just get organized. Just get organized first.

[C]

That's it. All right. Thank you so much. I will just close this out and remind everyone. Today's episode is presented by the lca, the Lighting Controls Academy, and it's financially

[A]

supported by the national association of Innovative lighting distributors, or Nailed. Check out our website, lightingcontrolspodcast.com Got all of our episodes and a whole lot more, but also huge shout out to our sponsor for this episode, which has phenomenal Support in the US especially. I highly recommend you check out MWConnect. At MWConnect US, they want their projects to be successful. I can guarantee you that because of the fact that they have worked on projects that through no fault of their own or anybody else's, unforeseen consequences happened. They fixed them by going to the site, resolving, maybe adding equipment if they needed to. You know, we have a great conversation. One of our past episodes, I think it's a livestream, actually, talking about leaves on trees getting in the way of outdoor signal. And it's just one of those things where you don't know until you know. And so they fixed the problem. They came out to the site and found the solution and helped make sure that that project was successful at the end of the day. So I can't recommend them enough. Check them out. MWConnect us. But thank you for joining us and David, thank you. This was an awesome conversation. It.