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Lighting Controls Podcast
Episode 127 - DC Power - Let’s Be Disruptive with Bolis Ibrahim
00:44:38
🚀 Is AC power becoming obsolete? In this episode of the Lighting Controls Podcast, ent...
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- [00:00]
Bolas Ibrahim
The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors, advertisers or presenters. Advertising does not imply endorsement by the sponsors and presenters.
- [00:16]
Host 1
Hey guys and welcome back to Lighting Controls Podcast. We have another fantastic guest for you today. But before we jump into the conversation, let me take a minute to remind everyone. Today's episode is is presented by the lca, the Lighting Controls Academy and it's
- [00:30]
Host 2
financially supported by the national association of Innovative Lighting Distributors or nailed. Check out our website lightingcontrolspodcast.com got all of our episodes and a whole lot more. But a huge shout out to our sponsor for this episode. We cannot do this without your support. MaxLite and their CMAX lighting controls platform which is simple, versatile, future ready and scalable. And I'm not just reading that off their website. I mean it, it is a really cool resource that you should out check, definitely check out if you're unfamiliar with it. They have a patented USB C connector on their controls ready luminaires that gives you that flexibility to basically plug and play your lighting controls going from basic, you know, non connected, non communicating devices all the way up through networked lighting control solutions for your entire building. I really recommend you check them out. Max L I-e.com cmax but get into the conversation. So today we have Bolas. Bolas, do you mind just giving us a quick breakdown on who you are and what you do?
- [01:27]
Bolas Ibrahim
For sure. Thanks. So yeah, Bolas Ibrahim. I am a entrepreneur and electrical engineer and inventor. I been in the direct current power distribution space for more than a decade now. So building direct current power distribution systems in research labs and commercially. And I co founded a company called Argentum Electronics which later on merged with another player in the space to create Sense Power, which is where I'm at right now as the president leading the commercialization of direct current power technologies for the lighting industry, for telecom and for data centers.
- [02:14]
Host 2
Well, thanks for joining us. You know, I think this is a topic that has come up a couple of times in podcasts in the past and it's really great to have somebody who actually knows what they're talking about when it comes to this because it is fascinating kind of technology and I'm curious if you mind just giving us a little bit of a explanation for what DC power is and how it compares to the standard line voltage power distribution in a building.
- [02:40]
Bolas Ibrahim
Oh, for sure. Yeah. So I think we can, we can take a step back in time to like the days of like the, the early days of electricity and like we can think of, of Westinghouse and General Electric. And that's like Tesla and Edison, right? And so, so at the time, this is like very early days of electricity, Edison Co, there was a race to deliver power, generate it, but also distribute it. And so at the time, we only had direct current power. And the problem with direct current power was we had a tough time getting it to step up to higher voltages. And so Edison had a hard time sending it long distances, because in order to send power long distances, practically, we're better off sending it at very high voltages and very low currents. So if you took, if you took physics, physics 101 is Ohm's law. So the, the, the higher, the, the higher the voltage, the lower the current. And this is the power law. So the, the higher the voltage, the lower the current, the same amount of power. And the, the key with higher voltage, lower current is that the power loss on a cable is just determined by the current. So it's I squared R, so the resistance of the cable times the square of the current. And so by reducing the current and increasing the voltage, I can lose less power on a conductor. So that's voltage drop. Any power loss is going to be voltage drop, and then I can send it very far without and still have a usable voltage at the other end. And what happened was, is that Tesla had been working for Edison and then left and went to work for Westinghouse and they came up with the, with the AC system. I'm oversimplifying here, and there's a lot more to the story, but essentially what we could do like 150 years ago that we can't do today, that we could do today. So 150 years ago, the only way we had to change voltage levels that was cost effective was a transformer. And we still use them today. They're just two coils of wire around an iron core. But in order to use a transformer, it has to be ac. Can't use DC with a transformer. You need an alternating current to make that transformer do what it needs to do to step up or down the voltage. And so Edison lost. But fast forward to today, and we live in a world where all our consumption is direct current, almost everything. So LED lights, so incandescents, they work both ways. Fluorescence, again, the way a fluorescent worked initially was we had these like really heavy ballasts. If you ever picked up a fluorescent ballast from like back, back in the day, it was heavy, it was an iron core. It's a Transformer. And then there were electronic ballasts. So electronic ballasts convert the AC coming into DC and then change it to a higher frequency, step up the voltage like that. They're much lighter weight. And so that's a, an electronic ballast, which. The same principle of an electronic ballast is what we use in our cell phone chargers, laptop chargers, all these like, bricks that we plug into the wall. And we only do that because all our consumption is direct current. So LEDs are direct current. Right now I'm talking to you through a computer. That's all direct current. Anything digital, anything with a screen, anything with a battery, restored direct current in a chemical potential. Right. Solar panels produce direct current. EVs, level three. Fast charging. That's a DC fast charge, modern H Vac equipment. So we hear all this, like, variable frequency drive, variable refrigerant flow, vrf, vfd, anything variable. That's a dc, brushless DC motor. So we live in a world that's today all dc, all direct current, but the utilities are still sending us ac. So what do we do? We convert the power with a driver. Right. Like we have like our, like, if you think in the context of lighting, we have LED drivers. LED drivers are not so great because they are the first point of failure in an LED system. They're always the first thing to go and they have to be changed and they create flicker. Like, if you've ever seen an LED flicker or just shut off, that's a failure of the driver.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
You see that a lot.
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Host 2
Yeah, exactly. Street lights, they're flickering.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Bolas Ibrahim
Oh, yeah. Or signs. You'll see like one letter on, like someone's signs, the one letter flashing.
- [07:24]
Host 1
Yep.
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Host 2
Right. So, I mean. Yeah, So, I mean, basically because we are predominantly DC power for all of our consumer electronics and the majority of, of the buildings, electronics that support systems, you know, the question then becomes, well, why aren't we just having DC power everywhere and so we don't have to transform or convert from AC to dc.
- [07:52]
Bolas Ibrahim
Yeah, and it's a good question. It's like, if you think of the construction value chain, like where these decisions are made and how they're made and why they're made. So there, there are a few things. One of them is momentum of thought. So, like, we have a way that we do things and it's easier to just keep doing things the way we're doing things. It's harder to change from that unless there's a something disruptive. And disruptive has to be like 10x better, 10x cheaper. Right. It can't be more expensive and it can't like be just twice as good. It has to be like way better, way cheaper. And so this is where DC power comes in. Is that in the major benefits? So we think of like, okay, why do we do line voltage? It's because, number one, it's the way we do things, the way we've always been doing things. LED is actually quite recent if you think about it in the grand scheme of things, it's only been like 10, 15 years where we've had major led rollout in the last 10, 15 years before that, like we still have people have fluorescence that they're relapping.
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Host 1
Yep, yep.
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Bolas Ibrahim
And so, so if like we're, and we'll talk about like where DC works and where it doesn't and like why it works and why it doesn't. So if the building like we, we have plug loads and those are mandated by code because we had a lot of things that had to go into the plug load. But now more and more everything is digital, it's usb, C, we're converting. And for the lights it's a similar story. It's like we're using LED now, so we don't need as much power on these branch circuits that are overkill a lot of times. And if you think about places like California, we have more and more we're creating smaller zones, like smaller power zones. And so this is where DC power can come in and help in cases of new construction. So because you're going to use different cabling for dc, so in line voltage you're going to use in most cases three conductors. You have your line, your neutral and your earth. Or if it's a line to line system, you're going to have four conductors and those are going to be carried through some sort of conduit, mechanical protection. So like a pipe or a flex. Whereas DC on the other hand is two wire. It's positive and negative. You just have two wires and it's free air. Right. So you treat it like you would network cable. So J hooks, cable trays, wire straps, etc. And so if you think about DC in that sense, you automatically go like, okay, it's probably not a relamping scenario. Like if you're going to relap from, if you have an existing building and you're thinking like, oh, I have these fluorescents, I'm going to change the tubes to LED tubes, you're not going to change the wiring to dc, your payback is going to. It's not going to work out. And maybe you need to change the fixtures. Even then you can keep the same wiring. Where it works is if you're gutting the place, you're going to rewire anyway. Or if it's a new construction, then you think about direct, like here now. It's like a clean opportunity is like. I can eliminate all the mechanical protection. The code allows me to do that by maintaining a safety profile that DC or Class 2 low voltage can allow us, can allow for. And now I'm delivering power to the luminaire that it natively. That it natively uses direct current. So I don't need to, I don't need to convert or rectify we say the AC into dc. So what I can eliminate is the driver. I can eliminate that from the equation. More importantly, I can eliminate. I don't know if you're gonna see this, but this is an electrolytic capacitor.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Bolas Ibrahim
And this is, this is the problem. And the electrolytic, for those who are,
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Host 2
who are listening, it kind of looks like a battery.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Bolas Ibrahim
Yeah.
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Host 1
And if you've never touched one and zapped yourself, consider yourself lucky.
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Bolas Ibrahim
Yeah. These are kind of like, they're kind of like batteries. They store energy. What they help do in a converter or rectifier is they help smooth out the AC and make it into a straight line for dc. The problem with this is it's filled with a fluid. It's called an electrolyte. And the electrolyte, as this thing warms up, will vaporize and will escape through the leads where the pokey bits come out to connect to the circuit and the electrolyte will vaporize and you lose that electrolyte and then this thing will lose its ability to smooth out the ac. Right. And what does that look like? Flicker. We see flicker. We see like the lights. Eventually it'll fail completely and the light will just shut off. But yeah, this is the problem. And the whole point of DC power, the idea is like removing these early points of failure, these lossy components, these rob the circuit of efficiency and they allow us to decarbonize the construction by eliminating conduit and mechanical protection because their low voltage circuits are safe now.
- [13:00]
Host 1
So I, I have a question on that though. Do you, do you think the code would eventually change if, if people were truly starting to wire buildings with DC power? Do you think that the code would change, that it would require still some sort of conduit or protection to make sure that it's, it is protected in the walls and things like that it's a good question.
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Bolas Ibrahim
And so the code has changed in the opposite direction. So in 2023, the NEC in 2023 changed to add a new class of power. So for the first time in 45 years, I think it was 1978, we had class three in the NEC. What I'm referring to right now are class two low voltage circuits. Those are the class two low voltage circuits are ones that are under 100 watts or 100 VA and under 60 volts. And if you maintain those limits, you're allowed to use free air conductors because it's inherently safe, your power limited at the source. What happened in 2023 was we saw the addition of Class 4 because there was such a, an interest in utilizing DC more. And actually I gotta give kudos to our competitor voltserver for being one of the pioneers in the space with a technology they call digital electricity. And what that got people doing is thinking at UL is like, how do we standardize this approach? And then eventually that got into the nec as Class 4 power of which we're a manufacturer. So since we manufacture, and just to
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Host 2
help people who don't understand that term, class four, do you mind just giving a quick definition?
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Bolas Ibrahim
For sure. The easiest way to think about it is class two is power limited at the source. Right. It's a power limited circuit. You only have 100 watts at the source for every branch circuit. Right. And so no matter what you do, you're not going to cause a fire or cause an electric shock. It's 100 watts at 60 volts, right? Right. Max Class 4 is full managed, it's not power limited. So instead of power limiting at the source, you power limit at the fault. So you have an unlimited amount of power, as much as the cable will carry. You respect the opacity of the cable, but your voltage is capped at 450. So 450v is the current limit, the NEC class 4 limit. And what you gotta do, what the manufacturers have to do is ensure that the power at the fault is less than 100 watts, not the power at the source. So what that allows us to do is send practically like we send 400 volts out, we respect the opacity of the cable, so we can do up to 3 KVA or 3 kilowatts per pair of conductor. So per positive negative pair, 3 kilowatts. So we can have 3 kilowatt branch circuits at 400 volts DC and that's 8amps. So you can use 16, 2, 14 2. Right. Like it's like very thin conductors, free air, you get massive amounts of power. So the code is changing, but not in the direction of more mechanical protection, in the direction of more intelligent protection. Having systems that can intelligently protect without adding more carbon, intense materials on the job site.
- [16:30]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. And so I guess the question then becomes, you know, since you have a higher voltage running down those lines to compensate, I'm assuming for voltage loss, you know, what do you do then to get it to the right voltage for an led?
- [16:48]
Bolas Ibrahim
Oh, okay. So this comes and like if you take a step back in history and remember like back in the day, the only way we had to step up and down voltages was transformers. Fast forward 21st century, we have switch mode power supplies and we have transistors and we have all these great digital devices that allow us to change voltages very efficiently using switch mode power supplies, which are DC to DC converters, which in some cases like a constant current driver for an LED doesn't have or doesn't need electrolytic capacitors. And so at the fixture level this is not something that exists today. But I'm just riffing about the future right now. The majority of these class four systems, there's only three of us really. It's like US Volt Server and Panduit with product on the market. It's a point to point. So it's a lot of telecom data center type applications point to point. But eventually one of us will come up with and then the rest will follow of a bus architecture, kind of like how we do ac. So the barrier to adoption for lighting is like we need a bus architecture, we need a way to be able to tap, drop down into each fixture and each fixture will have a step down converter and a driver. A DC to DC driver though, so very similar to today. The way we do things today is just the idea is start off with DC and eliminate the need for mechanical protection. Right.
- [18:24]
Host 2
And so I mean, you know, from a form factor standpoint, if you're looking at it from a 10,000 foot view, really there's not a whole lot changing if you're just looking at it box to box ratio. But in reality the infrastructure is really the key element here that is being modified and that actually is a significant change from what we're doing. You know, it's almost like if we went in and said okay, you know, all of this 0 to 10 volts getting replaced by Dolly, you know, it's like it's the exact same conductors we're using but suddenly the infrastructure has completely changed to accommodate this new concept. And so when it comes to, you know, this whole DC to DC conversion, you know, it sounds like it's more at the building level that needs to be made, that decision needs to be made, rather than at the lighting level.
- [19:20]
Bolas Ibrahim
Oh, for sure. This is a. And like, even when we work with our agents, like we, we tell them like, this is like, if you wait until you get a drawings and you have to like a fixture schedule and you got to populate it, it's too late, it's done.
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Host 2
Right.
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Bolas Ibrahim
This has got to be like right at the jump with the specifier as they're. When they're doing their single lines. Because if you don't circuit it as dc, then no one's gonna go back and redo all the work. I mean, some people will. And kudos to those specifiers. You know who you are. Shout out. But if you gotta go back, it's like an uphill battle. Like, you gotta start with the specifier from the jump and say, like, here's how you circuit this as a dc, a single line versus a line voltage single line, right? And if it's class two, you gotta, you gotta have 100 VA branch circuits. If it's class four, it's a little bit different versus if you're doing line voltage. Everyone's thinking 15amp, 20amp branch circuits, 277, 208. So those are the small differences at the jump that have to be brought into the picture prior to even getting to the placement of luminaires. Because the, yeah, you're as, as you said, it doesn't for the, for the lighting. It doesn't change any. The lights are there. It's the, it's the power, the infrastructure that's changing.
- [20:42]
Host 1
So thinking about this, like crystal ball, looking into the future, you know, I don't. Five, two years, five years, ten years down the road, whatever you think, what is sort of like. Because there's probably a lot of people listening, thinking, okay, well, how do I, how do we potentially think about implementing this? So where, where, where do you see this going? How does this start to roll out? Where do you see it sort of taking off?
- [21:05]
Bolas Ibrahim
Cool. Yeah. I mean, so today, like, we've done just us, like, we've done over 2 million square feet of class 2 low voltage. And we're probably like 10% of the. Like, there's probably like. I want to say maybe this is bold, but I want to say there's probably 100 million square feet right now. Active of class two low voltage lighting. Some of that was POE. And I'm sorry, if you have a POE system. Some people like poe. Look, POE was a great. POE was a great. It paved the way for people like, people like us to. It educated the market. I don't think you need a 1 gigabit capable data drop.
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Host 2
I want to press on that a little bit because I know a number of colleagues who.
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Bolas Ibrahim
I'm going to get in trouble.
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Host 2
POE is the future. I love poe.
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Bolas Ibrahim
Oh no, I.
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Host 2
Well, the perspective here on this show is everything has its place 100%. And so, you know, where do you see DC Power stepping above Poe?
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Bolas Ibrahim
Oh, okay. So Poe, of course there's no better way to do powered delivery for things that require data. So security cameras, WI FI routers, access points. Like what else? IP telephones, although we're not really using much of that anymore. And so there are so many things. Sorry, Cisco. There are so many things that. Because they have all the patents.
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Host 2
Yeah, of course.
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Bolas Ibrahim
So there are things where POE is a good fit. Now POE for lighting, that was really interesting and actually like we used to build a POE lighting system and then we changed it to be what we call PO ad hoc poe. So it didn't follow the IEEE standard. And then eventually we just did away with the cable and made a cable agnostic. So you want to use poe, you want to use like cat 5, use cat 5. You want to use 14 2, use 14 2, like whatever. We kept getting pressed by the contractors. Unlike, we don't want to terminate cable.
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Host 2
Right, right.
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Bolas Ibrahim
So. So we has its place for sure. And in terms of the like the next like year, two years, there's going to be more POE deployments. People are going to keep doing it.
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Host 1
Sure.
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Bolas Ibrahim
There's going to be more class two low voltage lighting. That's, that's happening a lot. Especially like California, Colorado, Arizona, like New York. Like we see a lot of this, a lot of interest in different areas a lot in Canada as well. And so class two low voltage that will continue to take off next two, three years, five years down is where we start seeing the mass adoption of multi drop class four. Right. And so this is something that maybe gets like comes out two years from now, it's like builds up popularity and then we see mass adoption of multi drop or bus architecture class four. Once we have a bus architecture class four, then you're now and the cost of that comes down to be the same cost as AC switch gear. So breakers. Right. If you get a per circuit cost on the Equipment side that's the same. It's a no brainer because you have no mechanical protection. It's safer, it's more efficient and it's dc. And so that's where it's bad news for the. Well maybe not bad news. It's good news. It's good news for the electrical industry that there is a, there is a new, better, safer way to do things and it's a pivotal moment in history because. And I'm just again I'm crystal ball so my crystal ball could be broken but pivotal moment in history this on the, on the same scale right as, as Tesla versus like on that same scale because like we're, we're now shifting back to, to D.C. from an A.C. world. And it's, it's, it's not like I don't think it's like a, everyone wakes up and one day it's like oh I think it happens over time. Like it's already like if you think of right now if we need to do a long distance transmission from like over, over 600 kilometers, I think that's the break even distance for this. So over 600km you have to go high voltage DC. You can't do a AC high voltage AC anymore. It doesn't work. So very long distance transmission is now also moving to hvdc. So and if buildings are moving to DC and HV and long distance transmission, AC is getting stuck in the middle at the distribution grid. So like the community level distribution grids and that's probably where it'll live for the next like 100 years until we squish that as well.
- [26:02]
Host 1
Do we, do you see is there an opportunity here where contractors start fighting like is this become like are the low voltage contractors going to start fighting for some of this work moving forward and the electricians are going to potentially get pushed out of some of this work because it's classified low voltage. Right. So do we start getting that power struggle?
- [26:21]
Bolas Ibrahim
It's a good, it's a good question. And like I've, before I did this I, I worked at our family business which is, we're electrical contractors and so so my father is a master electrician and like his father and like our. Anyways and so I don't, I don't, I always hear this and I think it's a lot of like it's, it's more applicable in the poe where you have like the data comms contractors versus the electrical. But low voltage is class two. Low voltage is covered in the national electrical code. That's something that electricians use and electrical contractors use to guide their installations. Like this is something that's well documented for electrical contractors. It's something that they do every day. They install low voltage circuits, class to low voltage circuits all the time. I think this is, to be honest, for sure. Some jurisdictions allow for this to be, this work to be done by low voltage contractors. So some jurisdictions require that luminaires are installed by electrical contractors for fire safety purposes because they know how to secure it back to structure. I think the neca, like the National Electrical Contractors association is doing a good job educating their members. I think the major, like the major national electrical contractors are doing a fine job of integrating this into their workforce. I don't think this creates much of a struggle between the, between the two, especially the way that we're doing it. Whereas it's not data comms infrastructure, it's electrical. I think it depends how. Yeah.
- [28:02]
Host 2
And getting into data. I mean the thing is what we're talking about right now is just power. And unfortunately in North America we love 0-10-volt, which then also makes circuiting and zoning intrinsic to each other. Whereas, you know, what we're talking about here I imagine is not using 0 to 10 volt or analog type control signals, it's using something a little bit more advanced than that.
- [28:30]
Bolas Ibrahim
So on the control side, we try to, and I encourage others in our space to also remain controls agnostic. So like whether it's 0 to 10, dry contact, Dali, DMX, like whatever, whatever it may be, remain controls agnostic. And because we don't know what's happening in the control space as we progress, like we're seeing this big shift, or I guess we're hoping to see a big shift from 0 to 10 into things like Dali, into bus based communications architecture. So we're not like limited by zone. Right. And that's so like it's, it's great to see that. So I think we don't, right now what we don't do is we don't send data along the power line. There may be a case to do that, but there may also be a case to maybe, hey, maybe one day we do dall e over powerline or like I'm a big fan of keeping with the, with the established protocols, like whatever it is, like bacnet, dall e, dmx, whatever the established protocols are, so that we can have an open and inclusive lighting controls system.
- [29:46]
Host 2
Right. But I mean, I think that the challenge here is the fact that, you know, it's two changes that would have to happen is one, we would have to look at how the infrastructure of power is being done, but also then the infrastructure of lighting controls is being done. And you know, I see that being a couple of friction points. I don't see that as a reason to avoid it. I think this is a reason to encourage it. Because I think that this sort of innovation is how we continue to stay current and competitive within an ever evolving market. But the challenge here is that, you know, awareness needs to be brought. So, you know, you know, I think going back to Ron's question of, you know, who should be targeted for this awareness and getting, getting more up to speed on this. You know, it sounds like contractors are doing a good job of getting up to date on this sort of thing, but, you know, what about electrical engineers or architects or owners?
- [30:48]
Bolas Ibrahim
Yeah, it's a. So you're totally right, like with these changing technologies, especially with like the first adopters of led, now, if not already seeing the failures of their, of their systems and having to refresh those systems, this thing is like, okay, if we're going to do this again, how do we do it right? What do we, what do we do here? I think it, if I have to think of, like, how. Well, I mean, like, hey, what we're doing here, like what you guys are doing, this is, this is part of it. Yeah. Creating educational content that's entertaining. Entertaining for people to consume, hopefully this is entertaining for people to, for people to consume and learn. I think the lighting agencies, I'm just, I'm just thinking out loud here. The lighting agencies play a big part in this because they do all the lunch and learns, right? Like, they, they're a big part of the education. And so, and so educating the, the lighting agencies so that they can also educate the specifiers so the specifiers could talk to the architects and their customers and to talk to everyone and for people to reach out to the owners and for the owners to seek out this information so that they can do a comparative assessment and to say, if I'm building a building right, if I do it this way, this is what's going to cost, and if I do it this way, this is what it's going to cost. That takes education throughout the whole value chain to be able to accurately price it, because if a contractor doesn't know how to price it, they'll just price it right. And so it's a coordinated effort of education that has to happen on so many different levels in the value chain. It's not easy and it'll take time, but I feel like that's part of my work as a D.C. evangelist, educated.
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Host 1
So if as people are looking at new buildings. Right. And, and like, so where, I guess where is sort of the divide line. Are you taught, Are you thinking people are going to go full DC or is this still. We have AC power to power these certain things and we have DC for all of these things. How, how do you plan out what the future buildings look like?
- [33:09]
Bolas Ibrahim
Yeah, so for, for like the immediate future, it's hybrid. And so there will be AC systems and DC systems. And when we're thinking class two low voltage, the AC systems feed those DC systems. Right. Sometimes if it's solar, it's like the DC is feeding the AC system. Like, it's like it's a hybrid of voltages, of currents existing in the building. Some buildings it'll make sense to do all the general area lighting. Right. Some buildings it'll only make sense to do the specialty lighting. So for example, if you have a large complex fixture, if you have perhaps lighting that's in an inaccessible location or somewhere that's humid, or an MRI room or a clean room, or above a swimming pool or above an ice rink, like things like that, there may be hybrid even lighting systems where some or AC and some circuits are DC. I don't think we'll see a full DC, like everything for another 10 years. Like, I think that'll be like another 10 years before we see like it's a standard. It's becoming like you can build a whole D.C. building. I think for the next 10 years, between now and the next 10 years, it'll all be hybrid. And then eventually what you'll. What you might see too is DC plug loads. So instead of seeing like the AC outlet, you might see USB C only, and those are fed in the back end by DC power. So it'll be some time before the code changes there.
- [34:44]
Host 2
Right. But I mean, I think the infrastructure is growing in that direction regardless. Because we're seeing laptops using USB C as a charging source, we're seeing pretty much again, our sponsor Maxlite, is using USB C and so it is becoming a more commonplace resource. So having that, you know, direct conversion to D.C. rather than having a transformer in the wall like a receptacle, you know, that certainly could reduce the pain points of implementing these kinds of resources while also providing a resource that people need for sure.
- [35:21]
Bolas Ibrahim
And USB C has an interesting, an interesting thing about it is that in the USB PD, the latest, it's 240 watts so out of a USB receptacle, as long as you're using a USB cable, a USB C cable, the proper one, you could get 240 watts, theoretically, maybe, maybe closer to 200 watts. But that's still a lot like we're seeing vacuums, right? Like the Dyson vacuums are USB C. So there is a big push. I mean like if you look at the biggest players in the market, like Signify tried this, they did it with poe, it didn't quite work the way they wanted, but they, so they dropped it. Acuity has a DC to DC platform. Cooper has what they call dlvp. I don't know if they're still doing much of it, but I know Acuity is their DC to DC stuff.
- [36:16]
Host 2
But I mean, to your point, we're seeing it, it is out there. And there are definitely some people who were early adopters who tried some of these groups that folded and unfortunately got burned as a result of that. But I think that's the other thing is that we need sort of evidence of time that it really can be a sustainable business model. So I think that's the other part of this whole education initiative is to identify the groups that are still in the game even after years of implementing it.
- [36:49]
Bolas Ibrahim
Oh, that's a really good point. There's that. So like, like we've, we've been around doing this for more than 10 years. And so like sticking with a group, like a big reputable, like Acuity for example, stick with a big reputable name that's been doing it one. And then number two is because even a big company can discontinue product. So number two is like stick with a non proprietary type of deal, so non proprietary wiring and non proprietary control. And then that way at least you could reuse some of that infrastructure even if you have to make a little bit of product changes. So there are ways to mitigate those risks. But those, yeah, for sure those risks exist. And that's why we're in the early adopter phase of this, like adoption.
- [37:38]
Host 2
Well, we're almost out of time here, so I just, I want to package this up up because it's really interesting stuff that, that, you know, part of this whole transformative technology and disruptive design process that that's being proposed with DC Power is really incredible because to your point, you know, the vast majority of everything we're using electronic wise is DC powered. And so we're, we have an incredible amount of work waste by converting from AC to DC already. And then, you know, it becomes that question of okay, why do we have AC power to begin with in our buildings anymore? Because it's it everything is converting to D.C. almost. And so you know, we're also seeing implementations of standards such as USB C allowing high wattages to be transferred from it from a standard DC power source. But then the added benefit is that because it's D.C. and it's, it's low voltage, that means that it's no longer needing these safeguards that are in place to prevent fires and, and shorts and everything that, that NEC is concerned about and in fact NEC is, is lifting restrictions by allowing more flexibility with what you can do. So long as you can guarantee that, that your safeguards are in place, you don't need that conduit, you don't need that all in all in box mentality. You can have your wires running in open air as opposed to behind some kind of shielding. Now granted there's always going to be a recommendation if you're in a sensitive area. But you know, for the most part, most commercial buildings for example would benefit, benefit from this at least on the checkbook because they suddenly don't have to run as much copper, they don't have to run as much conduit, etc. Etc. And the fact that when it comes to lighting and lighting controls, that infrastructure is pretty much already there. We just need to be able to utilize that. But the challenge is, you know, getting it implemented early on in the design of a project because you can't retroactively design it without it being an incredible process to then go through and say okay, you know, we're, we're now taking out all of these breaker panels and we're replacing all of these, these branch circuits and you know, just sort of changing the structure and format of how you are implementing the power in the building. There is considerable time that needs to be dedicated to that regardless. So having it being a question at the beginning of a project is a really helpful tool for those who are at the seat at the table at the beginning. And if we're seeing again and again projects with tighter and tighter budgets, tighter and tighter timelines and this is actually a way of accommodating those needs. And so it does become that question of okay, you know, why are we not seeing more traction with this? And again, I think, you know, there's, there's a number of people who have horror stories with these sorts of experiences and technologies where it's like yeah, we, we used you know, brand wise DC system and now we're stuck with A completely non functional system because they antiquated it and it's like, yeah, there's always that risk. But at the same time, if you stay agnostic, if you focus on the implementation so that it is accepted, accessible and replaceable by any tech, any other group, then you really aren't locking yourself in to be taken advantage of. You're, you're enabling the, the project to take advantage of what's out there. And we're seeing more and more growth within this particular part of the industry. So odds are if you stay agnostic and you pick a brand, if you pick product that's, that allows you to swap with other products, there's going to be more available going forward rather than less. And so, but it does require that mind shift. It requires somebody to be able to go, okay, we're not going to do it the way we've always done it. We're going to have to change our mentality. We're going to have to think about lighting controls in a different way and building systems in general in a different way. But, but just like with anything, it's worth asking the question. And so I think the more we get people asking that question saying, have you considered a DC power system in your building? I can see, for example, like hotels, those would be one of the biggest benefactors because if you have USB C ports in your room, ready to go to power everything, great, you've got people who are like, yeah, awesome, I have everything I need right here. So. But at the same time, most building systems already don't need AC power.
- [42:40]
Bolas Ibrahim
Yeah, no, for sure it's gonna take, it takes, it takes courage to implement that kind of change for especially the specifiers. Like kudos to the specifiers and to the owners for taking the risk there and then. I like what you said. There's also this piece of interoperability, encouraging manufacturers to make things that are interoperable with one another so that the power is in the hands of the specifier and the customer. They're not in a closed system.
- [43:13]
Host 2
Right.
- [43:14]
Host 1
Awesome. Bolas, fantastic conversation. Really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. I love the ideas, the idea of getting rid of all these bricks and power supplies. I don't know about you, but any specifiers listening, I'd be more than happy to lose the brick that powers my laptop. If I could lose that weight from my bag every day, I would be a happy, happy camper. Right? Like, but like you said, it's, there's so much waste, right. And it's all that. So market disruption is good and it's what we need to make changes. So stay disruptive and let's get some work done.
- [43:49]
Host 2
Man.
- [43:49]
Host 1
I love it. Thank you so much.
- [43:50]
Bolas Ibrahim
Yes. Right on. My pleasure.
- [43:53]
Host 1
Awesome. I'll just close this out and remind everyone. Today's episode is presented by the LCA
- [43:58]
Host 2
Lighting Controls Academy and it's financially supported by the national association of Innovative Lighting. Distributors are nailed. Check out our website lightingcontrolspodcast.com got all of our episodes and a whole lot more. But also huge shout out to our sponsor for this episode. We cannot do this without your support. Max Light and their C Max Lighting Controls platform. Speaking of market disruption, they are a market disruptor and you should check out their products if you you're unfamiliar with it. M A X L I T E com cmax but thank you for joining us and Bolas, thank you. This was an awesome conversation.