The Mistakes We’ve Made with Ron Kuszmar & Webster Marsh

Summary

Lighting Controls Podcast – Episode Summary
Episode: The Mistakes We’ve Made
Hosts: Ron Kuszmar & C. Webster Marsh
Date: December 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and insightful conversation between hosts Ron Kuszmar and C. Webster Marsh as they share mistakes from their lighting controls careers. Through personal stories, technical mishaps, and hard-earned lessons, they underscore how error is not just inevitable—but essential for growth and professionalism in the industry. The episode is packed with field anecdotes, practical takeaways, and reminders about humility, diligence, and collaboration.

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Learning From Failure: Why Share Our Mistakes?

• The hosts frame the episode’s theme: “If we don’t talk about these [mistakes], then people don’t get to learn from them.” (Webster, 01:56)
• Emphasize that perfection is a myth. Everyone makes mistakes, and the key is to learn and improve.

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Key Discussion Points & Stories

1. Importance of Second Review & Rushing Risks

• Story: Webster’s mistake as a junior engineer—skipping a second review on a fixture submittal, resulting in the wrong (and costly) lights being ordered and installed.

  “Always have a second reviewer. No matter how certain you are that your submittals are reviewed perfectly, always get a second opinion...” (Webster, 04:31)

• Ron and Webster agree the “small jobs” are often where carelessness happens as you try to move quickly.

  "It’s always the small jobs that get you … it’s like, cool. So we just did that job for free. That’s okay." (Ron, 05:36)

• “We are our own worst enemies… need to take that minute to kind of slow down and double check your work…” (Ron, 06:07)
• Recommendation: Build time for review—whether it’s submittals, quotes, or fieldwork.

2. Fieldwork Fails: Used Equipment & Site Surprises

• Ron shares a lesson from reusing a customer-supplied dimmer rack. The wrong control card (DALI vs. 0-10V) caused wasted time: “We lost a full day’s worth of work…because we didn’t take the time to actually go through and verify the part numbers…” (Ron, 10:28)
• Logistics matter: For distant jobs, a small oversight becomes a huge cost.

3. Site Surveys, Startup Readiness & Remote Checks

• Contractors sometimes call for a startup before they’re ready, leading to lost time and disputes over costs.
• Solution: “We set up a Zoom call…walk the site, and we want you to show us these very specific things so that we can make sure you’re actually ready…” (Ron, 13:39)
• Takeaway: Establish readiness checklists and remote verification for projects far from home.

4. The Dangers of Working Only from Plans

• Story: Ron’s rigging job mishap—trusted the drawings over a site visit, only to find a diagonal brace in the way after components arrived.

  “I never confirmed anything in space … We get everything there…and we get to the midpoint, and there’s this diagonal brace in the way…that could have cost a lot of money…” (Ron, 17:02)

• Lesson: Always walk the site, even if you have good plans.

5. Don’t Hide Mistakes—Own Them

• Webster: “Not try to hide your mistakes. It’s only going to make things worse…most groups, when you come clean and you say, ‘I am sorry, I made a mistake here,’ they’ll be sympathetic because they’ve been there too…” (Webster, 18:52)
• Warnings against pretending or covering up errors—upfront honesty saves hassle and expense.

6. Wire Types, Termination, & Submittal Realities

• Ron spotlights mistakes from wrong wire types in installations, sometimes discovered at the very end: “…all of a sudden we’re like, we’re up in the ceiling. And I’m like, this is not the same wire that’s over there at the panel…now it needs to be rerun, but now all the finishes are in, all the ceilings are done…” (Ron, 21:09)
• Webster adds: terminations matter just as much as cable type (theatrical XLR DMX vs. architectural systems).

  “Thinking about how you’re terminating your cable and your wire is just as important as the wire itself.” (Webster, 23:34)

• The hosts recommend reviewing not just the original submittal but also what was actually purchased and installed by contractors.

7. Vetting Third Parties & Knowing Limitations

• Hire wisely: Don’t assume listed skills are real—test integrators before assigning complex features (“Do you know how to breathe? Yeah. Do you know how to breathe underwater? Well, no…”) (Webster, 27:55)
• Both admit early-career nerves led them to say “yes” when they should have said “I don’t know,” which could have had disastrous safety consequences.

  “You never trust the guy with all the answers. You always trust the guy who’s willing to say, I don’t know…” (Ron, 34:17)

• Share knowledge, and never be afraid to ask for help.

8. Manufacturer Claims vs. Field Realities

• Story: Manufacturer says a system can do feature “X”; only after the install is completed does the team find out it can’t.

  “They said, yes…And yeah, we got the whole system installed…We get to the programming point…you can’t.” (Webster, 36:11)

• Solution: Always double-check claims, reach out for real project examples, and maintain skepticism.

9. Compatibility (Especially with DMX) and Troubleshooting

• Not all “standards-compliant” devices are actually plug-and-play. A DMX job with random light flashes required deep technical investigation. Solution was DMX decelerators to manage transmission speed. (Ron, 39:25)

  “It’s not all components are created equal and they’re not always compatible.” (Ron, 40:28)

• “Just because it’s DMX and DMX doesn’t mean…they’re going to just right out of the box work perfectly…” (Webster, 40:36)

10. Wireless Warnings & Site Surveys

• Wireless controls horror stories, solved only by thorough site surveys—with your actual hardware.

  “Every single issue [with wireless] could have been solved by a site survey…The wire mesh is the worst. It’s a killer.” (Ron, 43:42)

• IT collaboration: Get IT buy-in early or risk entire system design rework. (Webster, 44:51)

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Pro Tips, Takeaways, & Industry Wisdom

Notable Quotes

• “If you found the problem and didn’t say anything, well, you’re just as guilty for not helping it get fixed.” (Ron, 42:57)
• “Once you touch it, you’re, you’re in it. Whether you want to be or not.” (Ron, 43:10)
• “Don’t try to lie your way out…Just come clean and be genuine and professional about it.” (Webster, 46:01)
• “The pros at the top have other people look at their work just to make sure…” (Webster, 46:55)
• “Don’t treat it just like you’ve got paper in front of you. It’s a real location…” (Webster, 47:47)
• “You’re not hiding IP…you’re trying to make sure the project goes smoothly.” (Webster, 51:11)
• “If you want to really do this for a long time…you need to have those collaborative friendships…” (Ron, 54:00)

Actionable Wisdom

• Always perform site walks and physical confirmation before installation.
• Build time for reviews (submittals, fieldwork, final checks).
• Double-check all purchased equipment, not just what’s specified.
• Don’t trust wire types, termination details, or control compatibility “by default”—always verify.
• Encourage honesty and humility in yourself and your team.
• Vet third parties by experience, not promises.
• Involve IT departments and perform wireless surveys using real hardware early in design.
• Cultivate industry relationships: share knowledge, ask questions, build trust—even across competitors.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:20] – Submittal review fail, lesson on second opinions
• [10:28] – Dimmer rack, reused equipment field story
• [13:39] – Remote jobsite readiness check process
• [17:02] – The rigging obstacle: Confirming on-site conditions
• [18:52] – Value of coming clean about mistakes
• [21:09] – Wire type/termination pitfalls
• [27:55] – Vetting integrators and own limitations
• [34:17] – The “guy who always says yes” trap
• [36:11] – Manufacturer promises gone wrong
• [39:25] – DMX speed compatibility deep-dive
• [43:42] – Wireless and site surveys
• [44:51] – IT intervention and redesign
• [46:00–54:00] – Final reflections and best practices

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Final Words

Mistakes, even painful ones, are the best teachers. Growth comes from humility, self-audit, and honest collaboration. Slow down, ask for help, and treat every project as unique—not just as a copied template. The lighting controls industry thrives on teamwork and shared wisdom—don’t be afraid to ask, share, and double-check every step of the way.

Transcript

[A]

The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the

[B]

official positions of the sponsors, advertisers or presenters. Advertising does not imply endorsement by the sponsors and presenters.

[A]

Hey guys and welcome back to the Lighting Controls podcast. We have a fantastic episode for you today with no guest, it's just Webster and I. You guys get just us. And so this ought to be interesting. But before we jump into the conversation, let me take a minute to remind everyone. Today's episode is presented by the lca,

[B]

the Lighting Controls Academy and it's financially supported by the national association of Innovative Lighting Distributors, or nailed. Check out our website, lightingsholspodcast.com got all of our episodes and a whole lot more. But also huge shout out to our sponsor for this episode. We cannot do these episodes without their support. Max Light and their C Max lighting controls platform. I highly recommend you check this out. This out. It is a really cool solution for a lot of different commercial projects that may have challenges with lighting controls. And so what you can do is you can basically order your fixtures, no controls planned whatsoever, get them installed and then because they have that patented USB C on their controls ready fixtures, you just plug whatever controls device you want into the fixture and it's ready to go, ready to be programmed. You can just walk around either with a smartphone, they sometimes even just have remote control devices that just allow you to go without smartphone. You just have a small programming device, can do a lot of different features. They go from basic to networked and they've partnered with a couple of groups. Excellent product. Really highly recommend you go to max l I t e.com cmax to learn more. But let's get into the conversation. So today we have Ron and me to talk to you. And for fun, we figured we would talk about the mistakes we've made in our time in the industry. You know, we've spent a huge amount of time, Ron, talking to people about the mistakes either they've made or that other people have made. But we really haven't had a humbling conversation about our own chagrins within the industry. And so I thought it might be fun to just kind of air out the dirty laundry that way and share because I mean, that's the reality of the situation is nobody's perfect. There's nobody who's going to have a flawless career without any mistakes done. And if we don't talk about these, then people don't get to learn from them. And so that's really where we get to to help people understand because I'm not flawless. I've made tons of mistakes through my life.

[A]

Yep, yep. No, I think we all have. Right. And it's, it's the best learning experience though, right? Like, unfortunately. Right. Sometimes you do have to make mistakes in order to learn the. Like you said, no one, no one's perfect. And if you don't learn from your, your mistakes and your failures, you're never going to elevate yourself to that next level and want to be better at what you do. So you, you have to go through those experiences. And as hard as we may try, we all do.

[B]

Right. Right. No, and, and, and so like the first one that I'd like to, to share is actually from my beginning days in the architectural side after I had transitioned from theater, you know, I was working for an engineering firm and I had reviewed a lighting fixture submittal package and I figured, you know what, I think this is fine. I'm just going to send my comments back without getting a second reviewer involved. And that actually turned into a massive accident because basically there was a fixture in there that was a bespoke fixture that had these unique lighting elements in them. And the contractor didn't pick up or the distributor didn't pick up that it was a specific fixture type that had this unique element to it. And they had just put the generic stock fixture as a linear instead of a linear with a drop down lens. And so I had reviewed the cut sheet and I was like, yeah, that looks like the right fixture. And I just gone through it really quickly and sent it back. And then later on, as the contractors were installing the fixtures, I get a phone call from the architect being like, hey, where are the, like the drop down lenses for these fixtures? I was like, what? And I looked at the submittal, I was like, oh, crap. So I went to my, my supervisor, I was like, and she was like, oh no, this is a really expensive mistake. And the good thing is the contractor was really kind. They said, you know what, it's also on us that this got screwed up because we should have done our due diligence too. So let's split the cost here. Let's see if the manufacturer is willing to discount it. And they were. So at the end of the day, it was not as big of an expensive accident as it could have been. But I learned, always have a second reviewer. No matter how certain you are that your submittals are reviewed perfectly, always get a second opinion because you never know if there's going to be that one little thing where it's like, yeah, that could cascade into a huge ordeal.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the kind of stuff that. That, you know, I run into all the time too. Right. You're especially like, it can be as simple as quoting. Forget some of the field work sometimes, right? You're rushing through something, and it's always the small jobs that get you always. Right? You're rushing through. You're like, I can bang this out. I can get this out the door. And inherently, you forgot something. You forgot that extra accessory, that lens, that something. Right. There's always. But because it's such a small job, that's always the ones that get you. It's like, cool. So we just did that job for free. That's okay. That was awesome. But that's. That's. Sometimes it's. I think it's gotten really tough, and I think we as an industry need to. Not just as an industry. I think the Northeast in specific is worse about this than other parts of the country. We're always ramped up at 11, and no one knows to slow down. Right. And I think that's a big part of the problem is in other parts of the country, things don't move as quickly as they do here, and we are our own worst enemies. And you need to take that minute to kind of slow down and double check your work, have somebody else review it. It is amazing what you will learn from your own work when you have a second set of eyes on it, because you can look at it so you're blue in the face and think it's perfect. And then someone else goes, but what about. And what about. You go, yeah, okay, all right. Yep, I see it. Yep. So it is 100% worth that extra time and that extra review to have someone go through your work and make sure it's right. Because it. It's not fun when.

[B]

And not just for submittals, but for anything. I mean, to have a second reviewer in general is always. I mean, I'm a freelancer, which makes it challenging to have a second reviewer at times, but that's where you come in sometimes. I'm like, ron, hey, can you take a look at this for me and make sure I'm not just shoving my foot in my mouth? So, like, finding those people that you can. You can go to and say, hey, I just need a second pair of eyes on this. I need to make sure that I'm not really screwing myself over by saying this. Especially when it's a custom thing, when it's a, you know, cookie cutter could sometimes be a Little bit easier to get away. But I still. Even with the small, like, like you said, the small jobs are the ones that get you. Because either it's just like, yeah, I've done this before, and you throw it on, and then later on it's like, oh, no, that's right. There was this unique thing that gets in the way, and I'm curious if you've had that happen to you.

[A]

Well, I mean, we've had everything happen, right? Like, a lot of times. And because we do a lot of, like, retrofits and we work with a lot of customers, we oftentimes find customers who are like, hey, I came across this thing, and I was able to buy this equipment, you know, used online. Can we reuse it? And, you know, depending on the age of the gear and what it is, like, we always want to try to help them. If they have something that's adequate and will work great. So we had this one specific job where someone had purchased a dimmer rack from another facility, and it was only like, two years old. Great. Like, that's the same rack I was going to use. Like, aside from try the electrician trying to match up conduit holes and, you know, and fill in whatever, fine. No big deal. So we're. We, you know, took quick look at the rack. We did an inventory of the. The dimmer rack itself. Everything's great. Modules, everything cool. 0 to 10 option cards in the bottom. We're good to go. Everything's happy. Contractors got everything in. We're. We're, you know, starting to, like, test everything and. And getting ready to start programming. We're going through, and all of a sudden, like, why don't. Why aren't the lights dimming? Like, why is. Is all the 0 to 10 backwards? Like, did the electrician have an issue? Like, what is going on here with all the wiring? And we're like, I don't. I don't understand. So we start going through it, and we're going through it more, and we're looking at all the wiring. We're like, nope, everything's fine. We start, rip open the rack, we lift every 0 to 10 header, and we start going through, and we're like, all right, let's just touch them together and let's just see what happens, right? Nothing's dimming. And then so we touch them together and they're dimming. Like, okay, all right, the wiring's good. The electrician's fine. Like, everything's all right. Great. Let's put them back. Okay. Double check the Dimmer rack settings. Are we set for 0 to 10? Yep, that's all set. Like, okay, why isn't this dimming? We've chased our tails for a good three or four hours before. We took the two seconds to read the part number on the card in the bottom of the dimmer rack to find out that it was a dolly card and not a 0 to 10 card. So, like, it was like, we just, you know, so that was something, not a huge ordeal. We ended up buying the 0 to 10 card for the customer because we're like, look, I know you bought it used, but we told you it was good to go and you didn't need anything. And the card's inexpensive, no big deal. But we lost, you know, two guys a half day. We lost a full day's worth of work essentially because we didn't take the time to actually go through and verify the part numbers of everything that was in this equipment that we didn't sell them. Right. Because they had purchased it third party. So it's just. It's that kind of stuff, though, that, you know, and especially depending on the territory you cover. Like, lucky for us, that job was 30 minutes away, but we've had jobs four, five, six hours away where there's issues like this and you're not getting that part overnight. So now you've got to eat the travel time to go back to that job. Like, the time on site is one thing, but when you lose six hours each way in travel time and an extra night of hotel, it adds up really fast if you're not taking that time to just go through stuff. So it's.

[B]

No, it reminds me of something that you learn in the theater world, which is bring every tool you can think of if you're going to a far away place. So like we do in theater, there's catwalks, which are these platforms that you can walk along that are above typically the audience, but they can be over the stage as well. And sometimes getting to the catwalks can be an ordeal. And so if you're going up to the catwalks, in that case, you want to bring every tool you can think of, because it is going to be such a pain to then have to go all the way back to the shop to grab the one tool you forgot and go all the way back up to the catwalk. And I mean, sometimes they have like buckets that they'll drop down via rope, but it's just sort of that mentality of, like, okay, how far away is this thing? And I think that that's a really good point to bring up. But I think the other thing there is this sort of, you know, making sure that you know what is there, you know, and that's why some integrators refuse to work on projects that they didn't provide the gear on because they can't confirm what is there. But, you know, I think, you know, these sorts of challenges are really important to keep in mind and sometimes you can only learn this lesson this way. So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, so. And another one that we've picked up recently that's been a big issue is, look again, everyone's trying to work really fast. We've had contractors say, yes, we're ready for startup, everything is all set, and we send a technician four hours north to, to get there and find out the site's not actually ready. Right. So now what do you do? You're already there. You might as well try and assist them as best you can. Do what you've, you've lost the day, right? There's no reason to just turn around, get back in the car and come back. But now you've got to get into this hissing match sometimes with who's paying for the second day. Our side is. You said you were ready and you weren't. Their side is. Well, no, we were ready, but we didn't know. It's just, it's, it's never a fun thing to get into, but we've recently got into. Okay, you're ready. Great. We're four hours away. We're going to set up a zoom call so that you can actually show us that everything we want, you know, on your phone. Let's walk the site. And we want you to show us these very specific things so that we can make sure you're actually ready for us before we come out there and it, it look, it doesn't, it's not perfect, right? It can't fix everything, but it fixes the. Hey, that entire panel is not even wired yet. So you're right, you're not ready because you've got a day just getting that done, right. So it's fixed a lot of that issue, but that's the type of stuff, that same thing. Until you've been through it a couple of times, you don't think to, you know, ask these questions or do these follow ups and especially a smaller firm or someone who's just getting started like that can, that can really, especially if you're an independent contractor. That's never a fun time. You know what I mean, that's not a fun argument to have with anybody that someone's got to pay for an extra day now because of this. So stuff like that is so, so helpful.

[B]

Definitely. And the other thing, part of that is because if you've never gone through the pain of that, you might not know what to look for. So like, okay, the panel's not fully wired up. You know that that's a day of work. Somebody who, who's unfamiliar with it might be like, oh, it's like an hour of work, right? It's like, no, that's not so, you know, having this experience, I mean, experience is really one of the most valuable things to me anyways, is, is. And sometimes it's experienced via human hearing somebody else telling a story. It's like, yeah, here's what happened when we did that. You don't want to do that.

[A]

Yep, yep. And we, we've had contractors on this show preach sitewalks prior to going to installation. This is not lighting related, but it is rigging related. Right. So our firm does a lot of theatrical rigging. This is years ago. And I was working on a front of house lighting position. So over, over the seats, in front of the stage, over the audience. And we were doing a line shaft hoist. And I was working off the plans, working off the plans, working off the drawings. I never confirmed anything in space for that hoist. I did over the stage because I knew that the stage, that they. The stage was level new steel. The front of house was angled steel for the roof, which is part of the reason we were doing the line shaft. I never confirmed any of that in space. And we get everything there and we're going to install it and we get to the midpoint and there's this diagonal brace in the way and nothing. I can't, I can't. Their clouds are where the clouds are going. I have a one foot hole I have to fit through. I can't move this hoist one way or the other. And was. I was a young project manager back then and we're going back a Good like, yeah, 16 years. Right. This was a while ago and man, I was terrified. I didn't know what to do. I was like, I don't. How do I fix this? I. I'm like, I gotta call my boss and tell them that. I'm like, I don't, I don't know what to do. So I'm like trying to figure it out myself. And I'm like, just like trying to see what I can do and I'm looking at like, all right, well, this diagonal is bolted, so I could probably unbolt it, but it's obviously structural, so I can't just take it, I can't just remove it. So I go get the GC and I'm like, look, here's where we're at. This thing has to go here. We need to move this. How do we do this? So he was really cool about it. The GC worked with me on it. We figured it out. Luckily it wasn't a huge cost, but we had to bring, you know, the steel guys back out welders, they had to like redo this whole thing and make a custom brace because they couldn't use those bolt holes anymore.

[B]

And.

[A]

But we got it. We figured it out. But that was probably one of the most terrifying moments that I had had, like, totally early on because I was, I was like, I don't know how to fix it. Like, I, this thing is in the way. If I had double checked this, I could have dropped the whole thing down and landed between the diagonal instead of. So it was, it's. I mean, that could have cost a lot of money and it could have been a real big deal. And we got lucky. And it was early on in the project, so there were no seats in yet. There was no, the clouds weren't in. So we had full access to everything. But if we were coming in after everybody else and we had run into that problem, it would have been real.

[B]

Yeah. Real bad. Yeah.

[A]

So for sure.

[B]

Well, and I think that that's the, the one of the cautionary things for people who may not be experienced enough in, in any construction work, not try to hide your mistakes. It's only going to make things worse. I mean, most, most groups, when you come clean and you say, I am sorry, I really made a mistake here, they'll be sympathetic because they've been there too. And they'll just be like, okay, how can we address this? And sometimes, yeah, it's going to be an added expense to the project and that's unavoidable. But you know, being upfront about it is the best method because, you know, there's that voice in the back of your head that's like, well, if you don't say anything, are they going to notice? And it's like, that is such a risk.

[A]

Well, and like you said, coming clean and just dealing with it is the best option. Because look, at the end of the day, the gc, are they going to be upset? Are they going to give you a hard Time of they are, but at the same time, they're going to work with you because they have to finish the project. And you're now causing this whole mess potentially for everybody else until this is rectified, right? So if you just deal with it right away, you have the best chance of getting it addressed quickly and having people, you know, work with you to find a solution versus trying to hide it. And we do, unfortunately, see that a lot. And the time that I've seen this the worst. And I'm sure you've encountered this wire type, right? Manufacturers are very, very specific about the wire types that they allow for their digital communication, right? Different manufacturers use different wire. It's very specific. Every manufacturer has a cheat sheet, has a guide of what wires are approved and not approved. And we've found, unfortunately, you know, and it's always when you're turning on a job and it's. It's not too late, but it's too late, right? You start getting into it. You're like, why, why can I see this half the network and not the whole network? Or why can I see it? And then it drops off 10 minutes later. Like, why does this keep happening? And then you start digging in and you start, you know, as a technician, everything's working. Half of it's working. Every. Okay, let me cut it in half. Is it this half? Is it this half? You start cutting things in half, right? You start working your way through that troubleshooting process. And all of a sudden we're like, we're up in the ceiling. And I'm like, this is not the same wire that's over there at the panel. And I started looking at it. Pull out the phone. I'm looking. I'm like, this is not improved wire type. Oh, okay. Where else is this wire? And you start digging in, and then that's when you realize. And then, you know, it's always, oh, well, we ran out of that one and we ran this and we thought it'd be fine. It's like, well, but it's not. And now it needs to be rerun. But now all the finishes are in, all the ceilings are done. Like, so now pulling this wire that was free, aired through the ceiling because it was a open ceiling before is now not an easy task right now. It's multiple guys for a couple of days to go through and fix it. And it's. That can be.

[B]

Well, it's not just wire type. It's also termination. Because I have a story about that. Actually. We were doing a really fancy Location with, you know, some kind of moving light, not a moving head, but like a rotating gobo or something like that. And it was a theatrical fixture. So it had a theatrical termination point, a five pin DMX connector. And architectural systems don't understand what a five pin XLR DMX connector is. And so they ran category cable to the fixture. I didn't specify what the termination was. So when they got to the fixture, they went, Do I solder it to this? And so they sent me an RFI and I was like, oh, no. Because category cable, really, you can't do XLR termination with it. It is probably the most delicate soldering job possible to do that. So they had to rerun the cable, which was a pain because they had to rip it out. They had to rip the category cable out and rerun, you know, a better Rs485 wire with a XLR termination on the end. So, you know, thinking about how you're terminating your cable and your wire is just as, as important as the wire itself.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Especially as a third party. Right. Like if you didn't, if you're coming in as the technician and you're. Or you're selling the control system, right. You need to go through that lighting submittal like you wouldn't believe, like you've never done in your life. Because inherently you're going to find as you go through not, not the original submittal, but what was then purchased by the contractors. And this is where things can get you, is you bid the job based on the submittal, just like they did, but you bid it for the controls and everything else. Fine, great. You're, you're going in, you're going to do all the controls, you're going to do startup. But if you then don't ask and get the submittals from the contractors as to what was actually purchased, it can really burn you because you're assuming, okay, cool. I've got this fixture type which has an RJ45 connector in it. Great. I'm going to tell them to run category cable to these. But these fixtures, these decoders, don't accept category cable. I need to run a twisted pair and I need to get that cable to these specific fixtures. Well, then you actually start digging through what was purchased and find that they change something or the manufacturer because, you know, look, let's. The architect picked a fixture and used a cut sheet from two years ago. And since then everything's changed. And now it doesn't use this category cable. It does use a twisted pair or Something. So that's the type of stuff too. It's exactly this example though. If you, you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not only is it important for the specifier or, you know, someone just to make sure you're paying attention to that, but as the startup tech or controls tech, you need to make sure that what was purchased matches what your plan was. Because if you may put the contractor in the same boat if you're responsible for the one line, because there's five different, you know, lighting manufacturers or something on this, and you don't catch that, and you told them to run this one specific cable type to every fixture, they're going to turn around and come back to you and say, well, you told us to run that wire type. That's what's on your riser. Right. So you have to spend the time to go through those packages and what was actually purchased, not just what was in the original drawings.

[B]

Yeah, well, and that also brings up a really good story that I have about third party integrators and it's about confirming that they know what they're doing. Because, you know, early on in my career I was making like a short list of local integrators and I had called up different distributors and said, hey, you know, do you know how to do dmx? And. And they basically all said yes. And I didn't push it any further than that. So I was like, okay, these people know how to do dmx. And then one of them got picked for a project that had dmx. And it was very, very clear, very clear that they had never worked on a DMX project before. And you know, I should have done much more due diligence because otherw, because after the fact, I just had to hold their hand through the whole process and waste my fee on it because they just, they said yes, but they didn't actually know what they were talking about. You know, it's, it's like, do you know how to breathe? Yeah. Well, do you know how to breathe underwater? Well, no, you didn't specify that specific thing. It's like, okay, fine. So like, when you're talking, it's always good to interview them, get a sense of what they're capable of doing, ask for projects they've done before. You know, am I gonna have port lighting, you know, do a bridge? Absolutely. You guys do bridges day in, day out. Am I going to have you do this custom generic brand number 37 commercial project that you've never seen any information about before? No, that's, that's such a terrible idea because you have your skill set. You do your projects very well. I'm not going to force you into, into a project type that you're not applicable to. And granted, I mean, I'm sure you guys could learn very quickly. Quickly. But it's more of like, do you have the experience and the skill set that I need for this specific project right now, or is it more of like a. We're thinking about it, maybe sometime in the future?

[A]

Classic. Yep.

[B]

Yep. But, yeah, I mean, I guess. Have you ever said yes when you didn't know?

[A]

God, yes, of course I have. Are you kidding me? Of course I've said yes. There's been multiple times that I've said yes when I shouldn't have said yes. Do we figure it out and make it work? Yes, unfortunately. I, I, I have a bad habit of putting my guys on the spot because I, someone will be like, can you guys do this? Can you do that? And I'm like, yeah. I have a. May have a rough idea of how I want to do it, but then I go back to the office. I go, all right, guys, so I just sold this thing, and I think we're gonna do it like this. But I need someone to actually figure this out now. And I have a bad habit of still doing that. And they get mad at me sometimes when I do that. But it's, it's, you know, it's always something. I, I hate to say that, but it's, it's, it's. We can usually figure it out. But, yes, I mean, there were times early on, especially where we're trying to get started, and I'm trying to get started more than anything. And you say yes to something, and you may not know what you're doing. Oh, here. This is classic. I was freelancing. This was 20, 22 years ago. I was freelancing, and I was at a show at the Copley Weston in Boston. And the. I was, I was new to this firm, and as a freelancer, right, I was new, and they were just, like, trying to figure out what I knew, Right. And I was, you know, pretty good with DMX and, you know, fixtures and everything else. I had never patched a dimmer rack like a production touring rack. Right. So for those of people who don't know production touring racks, most of them have either some sort of a pin or a cable system where you. So you've got outputs on these Socapex connectors, right? And, or you've got whatever the outputs may be, and inside the rack or on the top of the rack. In this case, it was a flip top VX rack. So in the rack, there are these pins, and the. Each pin goes to a dimmer. So there are, you know, 48 pins for 40. Well, there were two because there were two per dimmer. So 96 pins for 40, 48 circuits. And then you put that pin to the associated output. Right. So I was going to take dimmer one to output one or dimmer one to output 32. Doesn't matter. Right. You have to patch that rack. So someone had asked me to go hatch the rack. I had never done this before in my life, but here I am, this eager freelancer, trying to impress all these guys that I don't know, and I'm like, yeah, I can go do that for you. Sure. Just tell me what. Tell me what you want. So they hand me the paperwork and send me back there. And I'm looking at this thing, and I'm like, where? How? And I'm, like, playing around with, like, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm like, I don't know. And then someone came back, and they're like, what are you trying to do? I'm like, oh, they don't patch the rack. They're like, oh, it's a flip top. And I was like, oh, no idea what they're talking about. Flipped as I flipped this thing up, and I'm staring at all these pins 1 through 48. I'm staring at all these numbers. I'm like, where does all this go? Like, what is. So I'm taking. I took my time, and I took, like, five minutes, and I'm like, all right, hang on. And I'm like, trying to figure. I'm like, all right. Oh, dimmers. Okay, Dimmers. Yep. Dimmer. All right. And I'm looking at the paperwork. I'm like, dimmer output. I'm output. I'm like, these. Oh, outputs. Oh, I figured it out, and no one knew to this day. Oh, now you all know. But to this day, no one knew that this had happened. That was one of those things. I had no clue what I was doing. I had no business doing it. And. And it all worked out, and it was fine. And I figured it out, and it was great. And we tested everything. But that's the type of mistake where if. If you're doing the wrong thing, you could. You could blow something up. You could potentially hurt somebody. Right? That. I had no business doing that, and I shouldn't have. And I joke about it now because it was forever ago. But that's the type of thing where I should have. I should have said no. I should have said, I need some. I'd love to do it. I'd love to learn. Can someone help me with this?

[B]

Because I think that that's a really good thing. Yeah, I think that that's a really good point. When it comes to mistakes people make is just not saying no when it's the right time to say no. Because like you said, when you're young and eager and trying to prove that you're a valuable contributor or you just want to prove that you're worth the, the pay that you're getting, you will say yes when you, when you really should say no. And, and I have a similar situation where I did a tie in and that. So people who don't know what a tie in, you're basically taking the, the, the service power that's coming into the building and tying it to the dimmer rack. So I could have died very quickly and I didn't, fortunately. But I'd never done a tie in before. I knew nothing about what I was doing. And so, yeah, I could have certainly bit. Bit the bullet at that point and just I wouldn't be here today. So, like, should I have said no and insisted on a professional come in to do the tie in? Absolutely. But similar to you, this was beginning of my days and I was like, you know what? I got to prove that I know what I'm doing and I gotta prove that I'm worth what they're paying me, which was pennies. Now, looking back on it. So it's like, how much was my life worth? About $700. So it's like,

[A]

yep, yep, no. But, you know, and we had this conversation with Kenny the other day and, and we, we started talking at the very end. We were talking about the guy who always says yes, right? You never trust the guy with all the answers. You always trust the guy who's willing to say, I don't know, let me, let me. You know, especially like from a sales perspective, if you're talking to a client, if you don't know something, you, you have to assume the client knows. Even if they don't, you still have to assume they know. But you also don't want to give them false information, right? So you never, you should never, ever, ever be afraid to say, I don't know, but I know who to call. Or I can look that up for you and get you that answer. What. Whatever it may be, you should never be afraid to say no. For fear of, like retribution or something like that.

[B]

Because it's to check their answer. You know, if you're suspicious about somebody telling you something, always like, reach out to somebody else and be like, does this make sense to you? You know, and that's how I've been burned also is just sort of like. I talked to a salesperson, I said, you know, is this going to work? And they said, yeah, go for it. And it, it just blew up in my face. There was this project where DMX project. And I was like, okay, I need to be able to do this. Is this, is this system going to be able to do that function? And they said, yes. And I was very suspicious, but I was like, you know what? They know what they're doing. I'm just gonna follow their, their suggestion. And yeah, we got the whole system installed and we didn't have a third party integrator involved, which was another mistake. But, you know, we get to the programming point and I'm on the phone with the manufacturer saying, how do I do this? And they said, you can't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was like, okay, now I need to go to the client and tell them that they can't have the feature that we promised them.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And at the end of the day with that particular project, the client didn't even realize that we had requested that feature. So they were like, oh, okay, okay. I mean, I wasn't even expecting that to begin with. And I was like, yep, yep, great. I just wasted everybody's time.

[A]

Yeah, well. And I know we say DMX is complicated, and at the same time we say it's not complicated and it's not. Right. It really is pretty simple. But it can get wonky on you. And this is where we've talked about before, that not all devices are created equal. Right. We had a job that by all rights, and we didn't sell it. We actually were brought in by the manufacturer as a third party to help figure out what was going on, because we were close and the system had been installed, it had been commissioned, everything worked. But then randomly the lights would start flashing, just random pulses. And it was a DMX system. So it's like, well, this is really weird. Like, we went back and we looked at everything. It's like, okay, well, this controller is a name brand controller that people use every day. This is not the issue. There's three of them. It's not all three. All three systems in the same building are doing the same thing. We're like, I could blame one controller. I can't blame 3. Follow that to the opto splitter. They're all using the same manufacturer's opto splitter, one that I use every day. I'm like, nope, this is not the issue. Like, this is fine. We go out to the fixtures, we're looking at the terminations, everything's fine. I'm like, okay, let's break it, like, let some things off. There's obviously an issue. We pulled the DMX off, used a local tester directly to the fixture line. Fixture line's fine. The optosplitter out to the fixtures, everything's fine. Go back to the controller. Look at the DMX from the controller. It looks okay. This it was. We started getting into looking at the actual transmission speeds and the baud rates and started really looking at the dmx. We're like, okay, something weird is going on here. And the DMX looked okay coming out. It was coming out at a, at a really fast speed. But that, you know, shouldn't be a problem. But look, certain drivers don't like really fast DMX speeds. You have to bring it down, right? This controller did not have the ability to change the speed. And that's not uncommon, right?

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

Can't change the speed. We ended up having to use DMX decelerators from Fleener. That was the solution. We added DMX decelerators into the system and we found the rate, the right speed for the decelerator at which the fixtures would no longer flash. And I figured out that speed with my DMX cat. So for anyone who doesn't know DMX cat to test utility made by City Theatrical. They're phenomenal. Everyone should have one that deals with dmx. They should sponsor this now.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Right? But so, like, they're a fantastic tool. You're able to change the speeds, you can change everything, the stop bits, the speed at which it's going out, you can change everything locally in the controller. And I was able to create, I was able to mimic the same speed coming out of the controller and verify that it did not work from a third party controller at the same transmission rate. I was able to then slow it down to a rate that I knew I could achieve through the DMX decelerator and prove that it was stable and the system worked. We added those devices in. Everything was great. It cost the manufacturer, it cost them a lot. Right? And because they had spent months trying to figure this out and they. It was just, it was a mess because you had the controls company doing this and them doing this, and it was just everyone's pointing fingers at each other and it got really tough. And that's, that's when they called us and said, we need someone who can just understands the whole system, who can just go in and figure out what the heck is going on, because by all rights, it should work. It's a DMX system. And they were right. It is not all components are created equal and they're not always compatible.

[B]

And that's the thing about checking compatibility. I mean, even though we have standards, it doesn't mean that just because it's DMX and DMX that they're going to just right out of the box work perfectly fine. You know, knowing your systems really well helps you avoid those kinds of issues. And, you know, yeah, we've got a ton of different manufacturers in North America that offer different products and different features and stuff like that. But that, you know, that's where the research of being a really good controls designer comes in. You got to figure out, okay, how am I going to learn these things? How am I going to stay on top of, you know, what I'm providing? And fortunately, things have kind of started to plateau in my opinion, when it comes to features and technologies. We're kind of hitting a bit of a ceiling right now. Whether that changes, who knows? But, you know, as far as double checking, you know, just looking at the cut sheet, looking at the information, going, okay, do they say something specific? I think the other thing that you mentioned is, you know, longevity. You know, some of the mistakes that I've made have been a result of me trusting that a brand new company knows what they're doing. And lo and behold, they clearly didn't check their homework and make sure that they were doing what they needed to do to make something happen. And in most cases, that's when you're dealing third party. You know, usually when you're trying to integrate something into a new system, but that's not always the case. I mean, it could still be within the, the, the system itself and the proprietary nature of it. So, you know, I think the other thing there is this idea of whose responsibility it is as well. And, and to try to say, you know, oh, no, it's not my responsibility at the end of the day, as a specifier or even as an integrator, you're the one who's going to get the finger pointed at. And so it's not a question of was it your responsibility, it's are you going to fix the problem now that it's there.

[A]

Yep, yep, exactly. Yeah. It's so true. Right. And, and it. At the end of the day, as soon as you're on a project, there is a level of responsibility that has now been applied to you, regardless of your role in that job. If you found the problem and didn't say anything, well, you're just as guilty for not helping it get fixed. Right, exactly. So there's no, there's no win, win there, there's only a lose, lose for people. Right? So everyone, once you touch it, you're, you're in it. Whether you want to be or not. You're. You're in it. And you know, I, it's. I know we're, we're running low on time, but like, we didn't even touch on wireless. Like. And, oh for sure, the amount of issues.

[B]

No, but I mean, I will say

[A]

the amount of problems I've had with wireless in the past. The. Every single one of them, every one of them could have been solved by a site survey. Every single issue could have been solved with a site survey, with the equipment. Right. Everyone operates at maybe a different frequency or a different band within a certain spectrum. Always, always, always test your gear. We've had too many issues in old buildings here in New England. Plaster, lath, horse hair, that. Take your pick. The wire mesh. The wire mesh is the worst. It's a killer. You just, you lose signal between walls and you can't, There's. You now have to. How do I get a device over here? How do I get an antenna into this room to fix this problem? And I cannot. That's probably the biggest thing with wireless is do yourself a favor and do a site survey. Don't, don't. Doesn't matter what the manufacturer says. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Go to a site survey, take the equipment and actually verify signal strength and everything else. Because, man, that can just turn into such a nightmare for everybody when you like that.

[B]

No, and I think that's, you know, not just the site survey for that physical parameter, but also to meet with the IT group. You know, there was a project that I specified wireless on and we were so far down, we were like issuing 100% CDs the next day. And the IT group got wind that we were using wireless and they pulled us into a meeting and said, you cannot use wireless here. We're not allowing you to do that. And I had to redo all of my work and had, I had that quick conversation at the beginning of the project, you know, does your IT group have an issue with wireless? I would not have had to redo all of that work and make the wireless system a wired system.

[A]

Man, that must have been a ton of fun to go through.

[B]

It was painful. But from that I learned, you know, always talk to the IT group. Always double check with them. Are you okay with wireless being used here? And if they're not okay, well, okay, that. Then you don't have a choice because they're going to control that. So.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But, yeah, so we're, we're almost out of time here. And, you know, I think some of the takeaways from this, you know, first of all, don't try to lie your way out. Don't try to pretend that the mistake never happened. Just come clean and, and be, you know, genuine and professional about it. You know, don't, don't try to be like, yeah, I screwed up. Like, just be like, yeah, I screwed up. I'm owning up to it. How do we go forward? And most people will be receptive to that. They'll. They'll be like, yeah, okay, that sucks. You, you, you really dropped the ball. But okay, let's move forward. Because, because at the end of the day, that's just the reality. People just want to be done with the project. So how do you make that happen as quickly as possible? The other thing is reach out to people.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You know, talk to them, have them double check your work. There's nothing wrong with that. The, the pros at the top have other people look at their work just to, to make sure, you know, to, to do that. Quick flip through the pages even, because they might spot something that, that, you know, you're just so deep into the project that you're not even realizing from a higher level. It's like, oh, right, I needed that. Yep. And additionally, to double check your work is not just to go, yeah, somebody said that it's okay, somebody said that. But is there something to support what they said? Is there documentation out there? Is there precedence? Has this been done before? And then finally just thinking through the parameters of the project itself. Don't treat it just like you've got paper in front of you. It's a real location. How far away is it? How challenging is it going to be on site? What kinds of procedures are going to be involved? Where are you in chopping block, when it. Or the timeframe? You know, are you at the very beginning and everybody's going to have to wait for you? Or are you going to be at the end and nobody's going to care about, you know, your screw up and it's your problem to deal with. And so you know, all of that just thinking through, getting a sense of the project as a personal project. The copy paste mentality is not just a death now because of, you know, laziness and the results of using the same part number that You've used for 20 years, but also because you're no longer treating the project as a unique experience, something that will have unforeseen results, unexpected things. And so if you don't, if it's an existing building and you don't walk it, you're gonna, you're gonna find something out and, and it's not gonna be in fun way. Whereas if you just took a day to go out to the place, walk the place with the owner and be like, okay, you know, what about this? What about that? You're going to avoid so much heartburn later on. And so just taking, taking the time and, and I think to your point, yeah, New England, we love to rush things. We, we try to get done as quickly as we can. And that in some ways is great because projects get done really quickly. And in other ways it's terrible because mistakes happen so fast and so hard that, you know, we see so many unfortunate results of those quick decisions. And so like sometimes that's why we end up with bloat on our documentation because we have CYA notes that just run on, run on, run on, run on. Nobody reads it anymore because it's just so big. And as a result they don't read the one important note I needed them to read in that list of CYA notes. And so, you know, nowadays I sometimes just create a big graphic that goes up in the upper left hand corner of my sheets that says you need to read this through because it's not a standard lighting control project. And even then it doesn't catch people's attention. So you know, sometimes they'll just blow in through it and they don't even pay attention to the notes, even with, you know, arrows pointing to it and saying look at me. So but you know, in that, in those cases, what I'll do if I'm afraid of a project could go potentially wrong. I will pre plan everything I can. And that is, I guess the last thing that I will share as a piece of advice is do not be afraid to share information, especially with your salespeople, the integrators, the design team. You're not hiding ip, you're not protecting an intellectual property. You're trying to make sure the project goes smoothly. And so by sharing that information, you're actually helping that project achieve good results. Because there are times where I've worked with like alongside a group that doing my job just for a different part of the project and they will be cagey about that information. And as a result I can't do my job because I need to work with them. So being cagey just makes you look at like a jerk. It doesn't actually make you seem like a team player. It does not help the project at the end of the day.

[A]

Yeah. And at the end of the day, look, there are multiple companies that, where none of us are individuals here. Right. Or you know, we don't own everything. Right. It's. We are all individuals, individual companies, but we all have to work together for sort of the greater good of what we're doing here. And because controls just continue to change and evolve. And like you said, you can't be afraid to ask for help. And every one of us has a colleague, a mentor that you can reach out to if you have a question or have a concern. I have, you know, I mean, I. Look, I've got plenty of people within my own organization and I've got other people I can reach out to. I even have people at competitors that I can reach out to when I have a specific concern and they do the same vice versa. And we have great relationships because if there's projects, especially project that's not being bid on and they have a question, we have that trust that, okay, you're going to bring this to me, I'm going to help you with this. I'm not going to then go turn around and steal your project. Right. You've been working on this, you're working on this with your client. I don't even know this person. I'm not. But I'm not about to go try and poach this away from you. Right, Right. We have those relationships and that trust that we can work through these things. Because that's just it. We've all had different experiences. So if you know someone who's had a similar experience, you shouldn't be afraid to reach out to them and ask for that help. But you as an individual need to put yourself in that position where you can ask for help and people are going to want to help you and want to trust you. And if you're just closed off all the time and afraid to do that and come across like, you know, the know it all, who people aren't going to want to work with you. And that, that says a lot. Right? So you, you need to be humble and understand that if you want to really do this for a long time and, you know, be involved in the industry, you need to have those collaborative friendships in order to make things happen. Because the amazing work gets done when we work together because we all have different skill sets and traits. So.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Awesome. All right. I think we've taken up enough of everybody's time. I will close this out and remind everyone. Today's episode is presented by the lca, the Lighting Controls Academy.

[B]

And it's financially supported by the national association of Innovative Lighting Distributors. Or nailed. Check out our website, lightingcontrolspodcast.com got all of our episodes and a whole lot more. But huge shout out to our sponsor for this episode. We could not do this without their support or our projects without their support for that matter. Maxlight and their CMAX Lighting Controls platform. I have spoken to them on several occasions about projects. They have helped me out. They are excellent resource, they have great technology. I highly recommend you check them out. Max L ie.com Cmax but thank you for joining us. And Ron, thank you. As always, this was an awesome conversation.

[A]

Absolutely, Webster, fantastic.