S12 E10: The Data-Driven Way to Make More Money Online (with Dylan Ander, Founder + CEO of Heatmap.com)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Limited Supply"
Episode: S12 E10 - The Data-Driven Way to Make More Money Online
Host: Nik Sharma
Guest: Dylan Ander, Founder & CEO of Heatmap.com
Release Date: June 11, 2025

---

Introduction

In Episode 12 of Season 10 of Limited Supply, host Nik Sharma delves deep into the intricacies of Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) with Dylan Ander, the founder and CEO of Heatmap.com. The conversation bridges tactical approaches and psychological insights into CRO, aiming to equip listeners with strategies to significantly boost their online revenue.

---

Guest Introduction

[01:08] Dylan Ander:
Dylan elucidates his extensive background in e-commerce and CRO. Having launched and exited two e-commerce stores during his college years, Dylan expanded his expertise by founding Nexcore Media and later Heatmap.com, his eighth business venture. His agency, Splittesting.com, became the largest CRO agency in the e-commerce space, working with renowned clients like True Classic, Hexclad, and Claire's.

Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Ander [02:18]: "After that I built an agency, Nexcore Media. Had several failed ventures between."
• Dylan Ander [02:42]: "We optimize billions in E com revenue. Now on Heatmap we're collecting trillions."

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The Importance of CRO

Nik Sharma emphasizes the critical role of CRO in maximizing online revenues. While many performance marketing agencies focus predominantly on ad creative testing within platforms like Meta Ads Manager, Dylan argues that optimizing the website itself is paramount for converting clicks into actual sales.

Notable Quotes:

• Nick Sharma [03:25]: "Why do you think CRO is so important?"
• Dylan Ander [03:52]: "The purpose of the website... if your only salesman is terrible, you're not gonna close."

Dylan further explains that CRO is about understanding and enhancing the user's journey on the website, ensuring that the click from an ad translates into a conversion through effective website design and messaging.

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Split Testing vs. Live Testing

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the methodologies of split testing and live testing in CRO.

Split Testing: Dylan highlights that many believe CRO is synonymous with split testing, which is a misconception. Split testing involves running controlled experiments to compare different versions of a webpage to determine which performs better.

Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Ander [13:51]: "I hate the name CRO because it's conversion rate optimization."
• Dylan Ander [14:08]: "So it's the CROs more so than the media buyers..."

Live Testing: In contrast, live testing involves making real-time changes to the website and observing the impact without running simultaneous tests. While it carries higher risks, it's faster and doesn't require substantial traffic.

Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Ander [15:04]: "There's split testing and there's live testing. Live testing just means putting something live and monitoring heavily."
• Dylan Ander [16:18]: "If you're trying to build a whole brand new bundle builder, you can’t use URL redirects effectively with split testing... so instead, run separate ad sets."

Nik and Dylan discuss scenarios where one might prefer split testing over live testing and vice versa, emphasizing that both strategies have their place in a comprehensive CRO approach.

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Heatmap.com's Innovative Web Analytics

Dylan introduces Heatmap.com's latest product: an advanced web analytics tool designed to surpass traditional solutions like Hotjar and Clarity by integrating revenue-centric metrics directly into heatmaps and screen recordings.

Key Features:

• Revenue Tied Data: Unlike standard heatmaps that track clicks without context, Heatmap.com links user interactions directly to revenue outcomes.
• Advanced Filtering: Users can filter data based on various parameters such as AOV (Average Order Value), traffic source, and more.
• Affordability: Priced at $149 per month for the full behavioral suite, making it accessible to a broader range of businesses.

Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Ander [32:35]: "Heatmap.Com before and you're in E commerce. Like, you know, you're definitely using Hotjar or Clarity at the moment."
• Dylan Ander [33:00]: "Clicks are very misleading... So it could be them leading you completely wrong."

Nik shares his positive experience using Heatmap.com with his clients, highlighting the tool’s effectiveness in differentiating between clicks that drive revenue and those that don’t.

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AI's Role in CRO

The conversation shifts to the future of AI in Conversion Rate Optimization. While Dylan expresses skepticism about the current hype surrounding AI, he acknowledges its potential in automating and enhancing CRO processes.

Key Points:

• Skepticism About AI: Dylan argues that much of what is branded as AI is essentially advanced logic and decision trees.
• Self-Optimizing Websites: Although many companies aspire to create self-optimizing websites using AI, Dylan doubts their feasibility, emphasizing the necessity of human insight and customer feedback.
• Upcoming Innovations: Dylan hints at Heatmap.com's forthcoming features that aim to revolutionize the CRO landscape by eliminating the need for split testing and personalization without website modifications.

Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Ander [37:53]: "I'm starting to hate the word AI... It's just NLP which is natural language processing..."
• Dylan Ander [40:44]: "That's all I can give guys. But like, yeah, like just even if you don't sign up for Heat Map..."

Nik Sharma and Dylan Ander brainstorm future AI applications in CRO, discussing the integration of AI agents and automated workflows to enhance website optimization seamlessly.

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Final Tips and Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Dylan offers actionable advice for listeners aiming to improve their website's conversion rates.

Key Recommendations:

1. Run Customer Feedback Surveys: Allow customers to express what they want, enabling businesses to tailor their copy and offerings directly to customer needs.
2. Ask "What" and "How" Questions: Utilize tactical questioning to gain deeper insights into customer preferences and behaviors.
3. Leverage Data Across Platforms: Use insights from website data to inform ad copy, subject lines, and content strategies across all marketing channels.

Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Ander [45:17]: "Run a customer feedback survey, let them tell you what to make your copy and just do it."
• Dylan Ander [46:14]: "The only best practice CRO in the world is just asking your customers, looking at data and just fucking doing it."

Nik echoes these sentiments, emphasizing the importance of leveraging gathered data to refine and enhance all aspects of marketing and website design.

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Conclusion

Episode S12 E10 of Limited Supply offers a comprehensive exploration of Conversion Rate Optimization through the expertise of Dylan Ander. Listeners gain valuable insights into effective CRO strategies, the differentiation between split and live testing, and the transformative potential of advanced web analytics tools like Heatmap.com. The discussion also provides a critical perspective on the role of AI in CRO, advocating for data-driven, customer-centric approaches over mere technological advancements.

Dylan Ander’s Resources:

• Website: heatmap.com
• Newsletter: Conversion Party
• Book: Billion Dollar Websites: Lessons from Optimizing $5 Billion

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Transcript

[Nick Sharma]

Welcome back to another episode of Limited Supply. This week is going to be a fun episode. We go super tactical and also very psychological into the world of CRO. That's conversion rate optimization. I brought on a friend of mine, Dylan Ander, who, he's like, he's been doing CRO his whole life and now he sees billions of data points with heatmap. And we just talked all things CRO. What are the low hanging fruit things you should focus on? You know what actually from a rebrand drives conversion increase on new websites? Or what are the, what are the long term things you can focus on to drive conversion versus the short term things? We spend about an hour going through all of it and honestly, it was a really fun conversation. It'll feel like you've got, you're like a fly on the wall in the room with me and Dylan just shooting the shit on CRO. So check out the episode, let me know what you think. And honestly, I hope you hear something in here that that's gonna make you an extra 30, 40, 50 grand. I think you will. Dylan's got a lot of good tips in here. So enjoy the episode, let me know what you think and as always, I'll see you next week. All right, Dylan, welcome to Limited Supply. This is the first time you're on Limited Supply, right?

[Dylan Ander]

First time, first. Many.

[Nick Sharma]

Amazing. Cool. Well, a lot of people know you as the CRO guy. I know you as a friend, but during 9 to 5, I know you as the CRO guy. And I'm always text, we're always texting about new CRO ideas. And so I thought why not have a fun discussion where we bring you on and just chat all things CRO. Kind of dive into your brain of how you think about site optimization or user psychology. So we're going to do that today. But before we get started, you want to give everybody who's listening just a quick intro of yourself. Essentially this intro. I want you to give yourself the credibility as to why people should listen to the rest of this episode.

[Dylan Ander]

Happy to. Well, everyone, hello, my name's Dylan.

[Unknown]

I like websites. Websites are how you guys are going.

[Dylan Ander]

To make the most money. You can sit in your meta ads manager all day, but if people don't.

[Unknown]

Click the buy now button, you're not going to make a dollar. So I focused on websites. I built my first two e comm.

[Dylan Ander]

Stores in my freshman year of college, actually exited one of them before I.

[Unknown]

Graduated college, and then one shortly after. So been doing E comm for longer than I'm proud to admit that I.

[Dylan Ander]

Hit my 30th recently.

[Unknown]

So we've been doing it for a minute.

[Dylan Ander]

After that I built an agency, Nexcore Media. Had several failed ventures between.

[Unknown]

You know, this is my current business, heatmap.com, where, you know, this is business number eight. So my biggest achievement to date before I built heatmap was splittesting.com we were.

[Dylan Ander]

The largest CRO agency in the E comm space.

[Unknown]

Clients like True Classic and Hexclad and Claire's. So a lot of the awesome brands that you guys, you know, have probably bought for, bought from before I split.

[Dylan Ander]

Tested you and thank you for the data.

[Unknown]

So we optimize billions in E comm revenue.

[Dylan Ander]

Now on Heatmap we're collecting trillions.

[Unknown]

And I can go more into that, but that's primarily the background. I mean I've done SEO for Geico. We had, you know, six figure monthly contracts. We've done it for Planet Fitness. So it does stem a lot beyond E Comm. But it's all I focus on pretty.

[Dylan Ander]

Much the whole time.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, you're basically, you're like an Internet kid for 12, 15 years and you've just built a lot of stuff and seen a lot of things. So.

[Dylan Ander]

Who are you calling kid?

[Nick Sharma]

You're a 30 year old kid, Dylan.

[Dylan Ander]

Yeah, I'm just a kid.

[Nick Sharma]

Why do you think, like, why do you think CRO is so important? You talked a little bit about, you know, you can sit in meta Ads Manager all day but if you don't optimize where they're going to like what? You know, most agencies, most performance marketing, it's entirely focused on meta ads. You know, ad creative testing, you know, tons of different ad variations, but it rarely ever happens on the website side.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Dylan Ander]

So it's really like the purpose of each. Right.

[Unknown]

So yeah, there's some legendary advertisements that like people remember forever.

[Dylan Ander]

But let's be honest, none of those.

[Unknown]

Are like Facebook ads unless you're a marketer. Right.

[Dylan Ander]

So like some of the like legendary.

[Unknown]

Apple ones, the Coke and Snapple ones, Doritos, like they've got a ton of amazing ads that were absolutely lit legendary and people remember.

[Dylan Ander]

But those are typically like super bowl.

[Unknown]

Ads and TV ones. You know, those aren't like in meta.

[Dylan Ander]

Right.

[Unknown]

Like no one's really gonna remember that. So the purpose of an ad in E commerce is just to get someone to your website like, you know, after you purchased or you know, hopefully purchase, like you're not gonna think back and be like, wow, like I really bought that product.

[Dylan Ander]

Cause I love the ad.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, totally.

[Dylan Ander]

That's not how it goes.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Dylan Ander]

So the purpose of the ad is just to get the click, but a qualified click. So the purpose of the ad is to find the right people, which hopefully this meta is doing. You're therefore targeting with your ad creative.

[Unknown]

You're getting them interested in something that they care about.

[Dylan Ander]

And the cool thing is once someone.

[Unknown]

Gets to your website, they actually have.

[Dylan Ander]

Something called confirmation bias. And confirmation bias is that they clicked.

[Unknown]

On this ad because they thought it.

[Dylan Ander]

Would be something they're interested in. And guess what? Humans like being right. So when they get to your website, you have confirmation bias to actually buy the product of the ad you just clicked on. So it's kind of like yours to.

[Unknown]

Lose at that point.

[Dylan Ander]

Unless they're just unqualified people that got to your website. So now once they get to the.

[Unknown]

Website, the purpose of the website, if.

[Dylan Ander]

You'Re in E commerce, it's your only salesman. Right. Like you run an agency. It's amazing.

[Unknown]

By the way, if you guys haven't already, I literally see the metrics of.

[Dylan Ander]

Sharma brand's customers and it's outstanding. But for you, like, you're going and selling. Right. Your website on its own can't collect agency revenue. It's, you know, you gotta go sell it. But for E commerce, your website is your only salesman. So if your only salesman is terrible.

[Unknown]

At closing, you're not gonna close and.

[Dylan Ander]

You'Re probably gonna struggle to get new clients.

[Nick Sharma]

Totally.

[Unknown]

So that's why if you don't click.

[Dylan Ander]

Buy now, the salesman can't close.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah. When I was at Hintwater, you know, in beverage, there's basically a couple players that dominate the whole space. It's like Coke, pepsi and Keurig, Dr. Pepper, Snapple. And there's no way you can get shelf space in some of the like. Frozen is another category. Insanely hard to get shelf space. Beverage is one. Insanely hard to get shelf space. But we used to crush on E commerce and, and it was because I always thought of E commerce as like the shelf space where you get. It's not about owning the shelf space or the real estate on the shelf space. It's about who's the best at getting you to that digital shelf space. And it's very similar to what you're thinking. I want to come back to the product launch in a second. But the way that you think about the funnel is almost exactly how I feel like you, you built this new analytics product with the funnel mapping and all of that, is that right?

[Dylan Ander]

100%. There's, there's a phrase, I give it.

[Unknown]

Like almost the top of all my keynotes, which is ask your customers what they want, give them what they want.

[Dylan Ander]

And you get what you want, which is money. So it's like whoever understands their customers the best wins.

[Unknown]

A lot of people, you know, focus on the ux.

[Dylan Ander]

Should we have the sticky add to cart bar, what flies out in the navigation, all that type of stuff.

[Unknown]

But at split testing, we literally ran over 4,000 split tests.

[Dylan Ander]

80% of those were just based on.

[Unknown]

Copywriting and changing images. That's the 80, 20.

[Dylan Ander]

It's like that's the content of your website.

[Unknown]

How you present the content is nowhere near as important. Like maybe with the exception of like.

[Dylan Ander]

Bundle builders and things to increase your aov.

[Unknown]

But other than that, it's, it's really.

[Dylan Ander]

Just the message that you're giving.

[Unknown]

So with heatmap, I kind of the way I look at CRO and like websites, it's kind of like what is happening. Like, so it's like the way to.

[Dylan Ander]

Think about it is you should care more where you're losing money than where you're making money, right?

[Unknown]

Because you could do like more of.

[Dylan Ander]

What'S making you money. But like if you figure out what's not making you money, a heck ton of everything else is going to make.

[Unknown]

You way more money.

[Dylan Ander]

So it's kind of like in CRO, I always want to find the problems. So like we have AI recommendations inside of Heat Map and they're actually based on. This is underperforming. This is underperforming.

[Unknown]

But if I had AI insight saying.

[Dylan Ander]

Hey, great job, the CTA is doing.

[Unknown]

Really well, you're not going to be able to do anything right. So if you think about the what.

[Dylan Ander]

The what comes from web analytics, which we did just announced literally two hours.

[Unknown]

Ago, I'm happy to go in.

[Dylan Ander]

But web analytics kind of shares like.

[Unknown]

The what is happening on your web website?

[Dylan Ander]

Heat maps and screen recordings tell you where things, you know the problems are happening.

[Unknown]

Then you know how are they happening.

[Dylan Ander]

Is like, you know, to ultimately go into those.

[Unknown]

And then the why is actually based.

[Dylan Ander]

On customer feedback surveys, which we also have on the platform, kind of funnels.

[Unknown]

Are, you know, where and then ultimately like go and do it is like once you understand the problem and you.

[Dylan Ander]

Understand why it's a problem at the.

[Unknown]

Top of that pyramid now you can go in and actually make meaningful change and super meaningful revenue from your website.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, it's funny because there's we get hired to do new website launches or relaunch a site with the goal of really increasing revenue per visitor conversion rate. And so much of it, I mean a lot of what we do is first we just look at what's working and we do those things. The heat maps, the screen recordings, the scroll depth maps, et cetera and. But so much of really fine tuning and increasing click through, whether it's from homepage to collections to product to cart through checkout is what you said, which is sometimes it's very basic UX just making things easier to find, easier to click, more obvious. Or it's changes in positioning and like what is the angle of, of selling the product exactly?

[Unknown]

The, the angle is, you know, 100, it's, it's 101.

[Dylan Ander]

It's what it is in all my experience. Yeah. 10 years of split testing.

[Unknown]

Because in college I did actually start.

[Dylan Ander]

Split testing shout out Ezra Firestone on Zipify when we used to be able to split test on those. That was my first one a minute ago.

[Unknown]

But the same way you look at websites has always been the same way.

[Dylan Ander]

I look at it as well.

[Unknown]

I've got a little bit of a.

[Dylan Ander]

Hot take actually for you on full website redesigns.

[Nick Sharma]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

So I am actually, if you are.

[Dylan Ander]

You know, a decently sized brand, call it like an eight figure e comm brand. I actually recommend not rebuilding your website. So super hot take.

[Unknown]

But I'll tell you why. It's actually not that hot and it's kind of correct.

[Dylan Ander]

In split testing.

[Unknown]

One of our like, you know, selling.

[Dylan Ander]

Angles, is that what we called it is evolutionary redesign. So if you're going to redesign your.

[Unknown]

Website, it's going to be like 4,4ish months.

[Dylan Ander]

If it's like a really deep one.

[Unknown]

Really big launch already, you know, making 100 million a year, you don't want.

[Dylan Ander]

To just flip it in two weeks.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Dylan Ander]

Take could take four, six weeks, four to six months to build.

[Unknown]

But if we start aggressively split testing.

[Dylan Ander]

Let'S try several new layouts, let's test several new angles, let's test several new hero images, let's test you know, several different collections page like layouts, arrangements, which products should be there. It's called what we like would call evolutionary redesign.

[Unknown]

That if you stuck with us for.

[Dylan Ander]

Those same six months that you might.

[Unknown]

Need to rebuild your website data step.

[Dylan Ander]

By step in split testing, you're never going to implement something you don't know is a revenue increase.

[Unknown]

So you should be like improving your website over time. And I always said yeah, we'll be.

[Dylan Ander]

Running four split tests a month, but you're not going to recognize your website in six months.

[Unknown]

And it'll be all backed by data, all scientific, all proven.

[Dylan Ander]

Only revenue increase over time.

[Unknown]

That we know.

[Dylan Ander]

Once you have a new website, there's really no difference. Like, unless you're making a big market marketing angle of it.

[Unknown]

Like, hey, like, here's a whole new angle. Like, you know, AG1 had like a.

[Dylan Ander]

Legendary one where they totally did.

[Unknown]

That's one of those few that I'll.

[Dylan Ander]

Say, like, they did stick the landing tremendously.

[Unknown]

But usually I say, no, don't rebuild your website.

[Dylan Ander]

Use some evolutionary redesign and rebuild your website that way.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, I would say I, I like that approach. Typically, like, we have clients that some, some like, you know, parachute home, for example. We entirely red designed that and relaunched it. I think we first launched it with a split test of traffic, like 90 10, just to make sure everything was working. And then 5050 and then fully 100%. And we were insanely confident in the uptick that would come from it. But then we have other clients, like, you know, we, when we rebuilt Solo Waves website or Salud's website, we were running all of their paid as well. So we were building Landers and testing the new branding and different content modules within Landers, seeing what worked, and then basically using that to build the new website. And then 100% of all ad traffic went to the website.

[Dylan Ander]

You're killing it.

[Unknown]

That's why I said you guys do great work. That's a couple of ways to do it. But yeah, it should be in steps.

[Dylan Ander]

And not just in the blind. We think this looks good. We think this looks good.

[Unknown]

If you're not literally going to the point of picking up the phone and.

[Dylan Ander]

Calling some customers to ask them. I always say you didn't go far enough.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah. On that note, what are some, like, you know, I think a lot of people think about CRO and they think about, okay, I'm going to change my button color, try an outline, you know, try different CTA copy. Like, what are some of the misconceptions you see about CRO versus what, what are the actual things to focus on?

[Dylan Ander]

Totally.

[Unknown]

So I know I've been speaking about.

[Dylan Ander]

Split testing a lot, but people think that CRO and split testing are synonymous.

[Unknown]

That is like the biggest falsity. People are like, oh, I can't work.

[Dylan Ander]

On CRO yet because I don't have enough TR traffic to split test.

[Unknown]

But that's crap.

[Dylan Ander]

That's not true. So there's so many things that you could do in the.

[Unknown]

Because like I also hate the name.

[Dylan Ander]

CRO because it's conversion rate optimization.

[Unknown]

First off, fuck conversion rate.

[Dylan Ander]

It's the worst metric.

[Unknown]

It's a vanity metric.

[Dylan Ander]

Cut off all your ads and send three emails.

[Nick Sharma]

I want to come back to a second rate.

[Unknown]

Yeah, please.

[Dylan Ander]

Like, well, so conversion rate is a terrible one.

[Unknown]

So I hate the name. It's kind of like revenue optimization or.

[Dylan Ander]

Like profit optimization, business optimization. That's really the way to look at it.

[Unknown]

So it's like the CROs more so.

[Dylan Ander]

Than the media buyers. We're typically the ones sending customer feedback.

[Unknown]

Surveys to understand more about the customer site speed.

[Dylan Ander]

We all know it's mission critical.

[Unknown]

That's CRO work, right?

[Dylan Ander]

Building new landing pages, that's CRO work. Working on different angles and copywriting CRO work. But what the truest CROs do, it's.

[Unknown]

Like what happens on your website is.

[Dylan Ander]

Going to work everywhere else. Like it's proven every time. So if a really good headline or an angle works on a landing page, go put that in your emails. Go run some ads that are similar to that. If you're making blogs for SEO, go make content around that angle. If you're doing influencers, their content should.

[Unknown]

Be more towards that angle that worked.

[Dylan Ander]

Stemmed from your website. There's also something called live testing, which.

[Unknown]

Most people don't know about.

[Dylan Ander]

There's split testing and there's live testing. Live testing just means putting something live.

[Unknown]

On your website and monitoring heavily.

[Dylan Ander]

I'm not against live testing.

[Unknown]

It has higher risk, but it's a lot faster and doesn't require a lot of traffic. So you can implement and wait.

[Dylan Ander]

I'm not like a split test or die type of person.

[Unknown]

It's like you can go in and.

[Dylan Ander]

Implement things in your website and see it so you can run live tests.

[Nick Sharma]

What's an example of something you would split test versus live test?

[Unknown]

Really good question. Never been asked that one because like.

[Nick Sharma]

Split test I could see maybe you're split testing an offer or a gift with purchase or something. But live test, would that just be like a net new thing like adding a bundle builder to the hero section of a homepage to see if you're driving click through and conversion that way.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So one thing also is you do need to think of actually hot take.

[Dylan Ander]

The limitations of split testing as a technology. If you're trying to build a whole brand new bundle builder, you can URL redirects like a 301, but 301 redirects take like A full second to load that. Actually, if you do a URL redirect test, it's actually going to slow down your performance of your variant and not perform as well as it could live on your site.

[Unknown]

So those ones that are really code heavy, I find that you kind of have to run ads to it.

[Dylan Ander]

And this is another one also that.

[Unknown]

Even if you're in smaller traffic, what.

[Dylan Ander]

I recommend is instead of a URL redirect, let's say you have two landing pages or two versions of a PDP.

[Unknown]

You send traffic to and one you.

[Dylan Ander]

Want to change the buy box or a bundle builder. Take identical ads in two different ad sets and run them.

[Unknown]

That's the only way to get a.

[Dylan Ander]

True AB test with no other things in there. So that's kind of like a live test that also CRO, again, it's not just split testing. You can actually test with your ads two different things on your website, which.

[Unknown]

Is something that no one speaks about in CRO.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, a lot of CRO I feel like is on the, on the website side is where the testing is done versus in the actual split on Ads Manager. But I think that's because like Meta is the only ads manager you can rely on to do that 100%. The others you can't really rely on.

[Unknown]

Yeah, maybe Google a bit, but that's about it.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah. Another thought that just came to mind is so like for some clients we've done this where if they're catalog traffic, if they get a lot of success with catalog traffic, you know, PDPs are generally lighter in information than like a landing page. But landing pages convert better for prospecting traffic. But catalog ads go to PDPs so we put them together and we'll just build a separate catalog, a separate duplicate of PDPs that are meant for made for catalog ads. Have you done that before?

[Unknown]

So I have. In specific to catalog ads, drop some.

[Dylan Ander]

Knowledge to everyone on the pod.

[Unknown]

It's not just about me.

[Nick Sharma]

Well, you know, basically just the same way I think that like every, every, every source of traffic should have its own version of a page either because a, you know, if you're coming from like a app love and you, you have a different user experience that you've been familiar with before you get to the site. Same with TikTok, you know, TikTok, it's a different user experience, very fast paced and quick and so if you're not fast paced and quick on your site, you're gonna lose the person, you know, somebody coming from like an advertorial they can have a much longer form thing. They're a lot slower paced. All that to say, you know, catalog ad traffic. If you're prospecting with catalog ads, people are just going straight to a pdp. And if you don't have all of the things that a landing page would have to educate and let somebody decide if they're going to convert or not, you're likely going to lose that. Given 99% of PDPs are very minimal product information up top, maybe some content in the middle and then usually just reviews. And so sometimes we'll make duplicates of PDPs where they're just essentially landing pages, but they're still product pages fed into the catalog.

[Unknown]

100%. Yeah, I love it. Catalog ads have been something that I think is pretty mind bending, like huge opportunity. A lot of people are missing out on those when they've got a lot of SKUs. So you actually asked me something before of live testing versus not how do you approach that?

[Dylan Ander]

Right. Because you're able to run split tests in the agency, you're able to just.

[Unknown]

Implement things on the site. So I'm curious how you look at that one.

[Dylan Ander]

No one's asked me that question before.

[Unknown]

So that's why I'm interested.

[Dylan Ander]

To get your take as well.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, honestly, I wouldn't say there's like defined, you know, decision tree around what to split or live test, but I would say if it's something like, you know, where we want to test an updated design of the variant selector on a PDP or you know, flavor selector or a different design of the bundle builder to see if we can get, you know, six bags in versus the normal four, those I feel like are good split tests. But if we were to, you know, redesign, you know, if we were to relaunch the, if we, if we saw that for a brand, you know, there was a higher than normal percent of traffic going to the about page or the story page or the science page, you know, to learn about how the products are created. Like those are pages. I feel like if you redesign, you're probably redesigning it with a thesis of okay, if we do this, we're going to increase, you know, we can start to increase conversion or start driving sales from here. Those are things I feel like you could live test and just swap out pretty confidently. Or if it was like a, you know, like a content module, you know, if you on parachute, if it's a content module showing how the sheets are made and put together and it was really Just obviously better. I feel like those are things you can kind of live test versus split test.

[Dylan Ander]

I fully agree.

[Unknown]

So I actually remembered what I was.

[Dylan Ander]

Going to say before because you were.

[Unknown]

Talking about the different forms of traffic.

[Dylan Ander]

And where they come from. I'm about to drop a little bit of a knowledge bomb that I don't think anyone has shared big data on yet. So at Heat Map we've collected trillions of data points. We have native ad integrations.

[Unknown]

So we actually know a lot more.

[Dylan Ander]

Than a traditional heat map. That's just tracking UTMs. So we actually have a ton of data on that. What would you guess?

[Unknown]

So like I looked at about like 20 websites. I just put it on a spreadsheet. Like I didn't query the database. So like I'll get more data.

[Dylan Ander]

But just based on those alone, the.

[Unknown]

Data was pretty like constant across them. So for Meta and TikTok, because I.

[Dylan Ander]

Found they were the same. What do you think the average time.

[Unknown]

On site is of someone who comes from meta?

[Dylan Ander]

And this is just last click, right?

[Unknown]

This is not like, you know, advanced.

[Dylan Ander]

This is just someone came from meta.

[Unknown]

I don't care if it's first time returning, whatever. Someone that comes for meta on average.

[Dylan Ander]

How long does their session last?

[Nick Sharma]

Two seconds.

[Unknown]

No, no, no, no. So like on average it's.

[Dylan Ander]

So for them it's 53 seconds is what I found.

[Unknown]

Which is like a good session. Well actually so in Heat Map we.

[Dylan Ander]

Actually scrap all the crappy traffic. It's called junk traffic.

[Unknown]

That's a big term.

[Nick Sharma]

Oh, okay. I was thinking about all the sessions that come and leave too. Like majority is that. But yeah, it makes sense 100%.

[Unknown]

That's actually a value prop that we have at Heat Map which is there's def.

[Dylan Ander]

Junk traffic.

[Unknown]

You can look it up where junk traffic is bot spam filter like, like Shopify.

[Dylan Ander]

It's good and bad because they are.

[Unknown]

Server side tracking because we're client side tracking. Like if someone instant like bounces, like.

[Dylan Ander]

Someone clicks the ad and instantly leaves.

[Unknown]

That'S counted by almost every other, you know, analytics platform. And I'm like I don't want that in my data. I don't want that in my client's data. So like we discard it.

[Nick Sharma]

Can you explain server side and client side? Somebody actually asked me what one of the softwares we use is and I didn't know how to answer that.

[Dylan Ander]

Yeah, let me, let me roof on.

[Unknown]

This one because I've got a 1, 2 on the, on the time on site. So TikTok, how long do you think the average is TikTok discarding all the crappy ones?

[Nick Sharma]

13 seconds.

[Dylan Ander]

So 41.

[Nick Sharma]

Wow.

[Unknown]

And again, you know, that's for, that's for like a quality session that for us, if they're above 5 seconds is.

[Dylan Ander]

The only time we count them.

[Nick Sharma]

Got it.

[Unknown]

So, you know, these are like true ones.

[Dylan Ander]

Engaged sessions.

[Unknown]

So now for Google, what do you.

[Dylan Ander]

Think average time on site is of engaged sessions? A minute, 2 minutes and 20 seconds.

[Nick Sharma]

Wow.

[Dylan Ander]

So it shows the intent. So the reason why, like in those.

[Unknown]

Ad platforms, TikTok is so fast, it's the shortest sessions because that's the nature of the content. And also I forget the name, but you might know it. It's where like, like it's almost like.

[Dylan Ander]

Inbound ads where Google someone was searching.

[Unknown]

For something and then therefore they went.

[Dylan Ander]

And found the proper solution, which is probably yours. And now they were already there with intention to shop and buy.

[Unknown]

They go and buy more frequently.

[Dylan Ander]

Conversion rate is almost like triple what meta is as well, maybe not four or five times.

[Unknown]

So that's an interesting one that I found that.

[Dylan Ander]

Yeah, that was just because we were.

[Unknown]

Talking time on site. So it's like a Meta and TikTok.

[Dylan Ander]

People aren't there to go try and find your ad, but on Google they are.

[Unknown]

So that's really like a big difference there. So just a fun nerd fact we debuted here. I don't think anyone has ever shared that data before.

[Nick Sharma]

Well, would be. So are you collecting this traffic? This is all through UTMs, right? Are you able to see referring URL as well, even if it doesn't have a utm? Because I'd be curious to know what Reddit's time on site would be, not through an ad, but like as a referring URL coming from Reddit.

[Unknown]

Reddit is a tiny fraction, but Reddit is also wicked powerful. E comm is absolutely sleeping on Reddit, like tremendously. Yeah, it's.

[Dylan Ander]

It's pretty high as well.

[Unknown]

I saw it in like two or.

[Dylan Ander]

Three of them and they were looking like a minute and a half to.

[Unknown]

Two minutes because it's definitely like more trusted verified traffic. You know, people aren't pitching their stuff on Reddit, so like that's a pretty good one.

[Nick Sharma]

You know, one thing you said, talking about the Google click time brought a thought in my head that I'm curious, I'm just curious what you think about this thought. I feel like there's always two funnels that you're constantly building. One funnel is basically selling the reason why you need this Product, it tells you, well, you're kind of always prone to being sick. That's why you need colostrum. Or you want to stop growing white hairs, you need colostrum. And then the second funnel is why, why is this one better than the others? Or why is this one the one you should buy?

[Dylan Ander]

Interesting.

[Unknown]

So it's. Are you familiar with the different buying journeys? Like, like the stages of the buying journeys?

[Nick Sharma]

Like the ADA funnel?

[Unknown]

Yeah, like, you know, awareness. Interesting.

[Dylan Ander]

Do you want to explain the ADA.

[Unknown]

Funnel to those who don't know it? Because then I'll tie it to the websites.

[Nick Sharma]

Okay, perfect. The ADA funnel is stands for. It's a four part funnel at the very top, awareness. Then you know, awareness helps you drive interest, interest helps you drive desire, which is intent. And then desire drives conversion. But for the record, I think this is outdated.

[Unknown]

I don't fully disagree but I think the foundations like, yeah, you can add in like some people add social proof as one of those and that type of thing. But there's the, you know, awareness phase, the buying phase, like, you know, the.

[Dylan Ander]

Interest phase, like whether they're on your page or not.

[Unknown]

So when someone's first coming like you.

[Dylan Ander]

Know, again on Meta TikTok where most people discover you, which is top of.

[Unknown]

Funnel, they're not on TikTok to find you. Right. So you gotta take them away from.

[Dylan Ander]

Your day and just educate the heck out of them.

[Unknown]

That's just all info. That's that copywriting and images I always come back to. So that's the top of funnel. And then once they return, maybe someone.

[Dylan Ander]

Else mentions it, they might go direct traffic, which is more traffic percentage than most people think, even for the big brands. And then they'll go in and the.

[Unknown]

Website kind of does the rest. Like you said that second half, that just kind of swoops up the conversions because more top of funnel. It's like of course people want a.

[Dylan Ander]

First time meta user to buy but.

[Unknown]

Like that's not, if you're thinking in.

[Dylan Ander]

The grand scheme of things, it's not really the goal.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So that's where like those two types of pages that you shared are kind of like there's really three technically if you want to go into those where.

[Dylan Ander]

It'S just, you know, the different stages.

[Unknown]

Of awareness, that's the type of pages that they have to match how many.

[Dylan Ander]

Times they've been on the website. If they're getting retargeted, they might be a little bit more direct response versus informational and it's matched to where they are on the buying journey.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, that's actually very true. I fully agree with that. My thought earlier around ADA being outdated is going back to you mentioned Coke earlier. In 1960, Coke had to run different stuff at billboards, different things on radio. You know, they like the funnel was really defined there because it was like different platforms are basically exclusively different parts of that. But today, whether it's TV or TikTok or YouTube or Meta or a bus rap ad with a QR code on it, like almost all these placements have to be like full funnel. Whether you're. You have no idea what the product is or you're ready to make a purchase right now, all of these ads and placements have to work as upper, middle and lower funnel. Do you agree?

[Dylan Ander]

Can you elaborate for why they have.

[Unknown]

To be all of them?

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, well, they don't have to, but if you look at a brand like Vuori, right, they run their TV ads as a performance channel or even when I was at Hint, we used to run our TV ads as a performance channel. But at the same time it was also an amazing awareness play for retail. But if it was only only created to be a awareness ad, then it wouldn't have also given the benefit on the direct response side. But what I'm trying to say is whether it's a Billboard or a TV ad or a TikTok ad, it almost has to work in the sense of it has to educate you and it has to make you want it and then it has to give you something where you're excited to buy it and then give you the opportunity to go and buy or click that button.

[Dylan Ander]

I will hard disagree.

[Nick Sharma]

Okay, tell me.

[Dylan Ander]

So if you're on a billboard, you're.

[Unknown]

Probably driving in a car or you're a passenger in a car, you're not.

[Dylan Ander]

Whipping open your phone for sure. There's a reason why there's top, middle and bottom of funnel. There's different purpose, right?

[Unknown]

Like I would say that yours would hold true if you use the same ad creative everywhere, but because there's a.

[Dylan Ander]

Need for different ad creatives on not.

[Unknown]

Just a singular platform which has top, middle, bottom of funnel, but nonetheless different.

[Dylan Ander]

Mediums and physical life and digital, those require different efforts, right?

[Unknown]

Like if there was a QR code on a billboard, that'd be a pretty shitty creative. But if you're on a bus and you're sitting it outside of like a concert and you want their merch, you.

[Dylan Ander]

Can click it and it could be to your house and that QR code might be Amazing. So getting that awareness, like there are different purposes for different touch points.

[Unknown]

Like I believe, you can check me on this, but I believe True Classic.

[Dylan Ander]

They started making brick and mortar, but they have it lined as a marketing expense.

[Nick Sharma]

Right.

[Dylan Ander]

Not for the purpose of driving revenue.

[Unknown]

But for the purpose of you're in SoHo in New York City and you're.

[Dylan Ander]

Looking at a bunch of different places and they're like, oh, true classic, I've heard of them.

[Unknown]

They might walk in, take it top of funnel. Most people in re in retail don't.

[Dylan Ander]

Actually buy just like websites.

[Unknown]

So same thing happens that it's for brand awareness. So I think that every form of.

[Dylan Ander]

Any property that has your brand on it has a completely different purpose.

[Nick Sharma]

I don't, I don't disagree with you. I think what I'm saying is, I guess what I'm saying is like almost whether the channel is considered a view through channel, like a TV billboard, YouTube or a click through channel, the creative still has to educate and get you excited to buy versus like just be a beautiful picture with a logo on it.

[Dylan Ander]

Couldn't agree more.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, I call it like more the concept of I guess performance branding, like building brand equity but on the back of like hard working media, hardworking director or you're just always trying to make the media work as hard as it can, you know.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dylan Ander]

Couldn't agree more.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah. Okay, where should we go next? I feel like we totally derailed what we were going to talk about. Okay, wait, can we talk about the site analytics? So you just launched, basically you took everything from the original ga, Google Analytics, relaunched it, you added the funnel piece which used to be, that used to be my favorite feature in Facebook Ads Manager. They used to have a site analytics. This was pre Cambridge Analytica and you could see basically from every click where the drop off happens and then just go diagnose the problem wherever you see the drop off. It was amazing. But that was taken out after Cambridge stuff. But why don't you just talk a little bit about the new product or like, you know, what drove you to create it? I know you've been working on it too for a long time.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's no shortage of effort and you know, saggy eyes. But so for those who don't know, I'm the founder of heatmap.com with the.

[Dylan Ander]

Only revenue based heat map in the world.

[Unknown]

So like I'm sure you guys have.

[Dylan Ander]

Heard of clarity or hotjar.

[Unknown]

I mean if you haven't heard of.

[Dylan Ander]

Heatmap.Com before and you're in E commerce.

[Unknown]

Like, you know, you're definitely using hotjar or Clarity at the moment.

[Dylan Ander]

They just show you clicks and clicks don't pay the bills, revenue does.

[Unknown]

That's kind of like our catchphrase a little bit. So it's like down to every single pixel. Like I can query the pixel of.

[Dylan Ander]

72942 and literally see a pixel.

[Unknown]

And that's the type of technology that we have.

[Dylan Ander]

So you're able to see on your navigation, if you're on your homepage. Users who click the navigation, do they make more money than someone who scrolls.

[Unknown]

All the way down and sees a content section? Both rationally in your head could make a lot of money, but one is.

[Dylan Ander]

Going to make more based on it. So like clicks are very misleading.

[Unknown]

Like I could even make the case.

[Dylan Ander]

That click maps are like borderline unethical.

[Unknown]

For E commerce because they're so misleading that like you look at clicks.

[Dylan Ander]

But are they leading to revenue or not? You don't know. So it could be meeting. They could be leading you completely wrong.

[Unknown]

If you don't have revenue tied to it.

[Dylan Ander]

Then we built screen recordings. Those also need to be tied to revenue. Very important, right?

[Unknown]

You can like filter for aov and also we built every bit of custom.

[Dylan Ander]

Dimensions that Google Analytics has.

[Unknown]

So like you want to see first time came from meta, you know, purchased.

[Dylan Ander]

For an AOV above a certain amount.

[Unknown]

What did those people do on my website?

[Dylan Ander]

So like your whales first time come from meta.

[Unknown]

Really valuable people.

[Dylan Ander]

What did they go and do? You can see funnel drop off analysis.

[Unknown]

We built all of that and for.

[Dylan Ander]

Literally 29 bucks a month, we just.

[Unknown]

Launched like two hours ago web analytics. So like getting your good old universal analytics back, everything just works straight out the box. So with GA4, I'm sure you guys.

[Dylan Ander]

Are super frustrated with it. I've been for years.

[Unknown]

Custom code, manual tags. You hope you're like, you shouldn't need.

[Dylan Ander]

A developer just to see your fricking data. Right?

[Unknown]

Like that's kind of bonkers to me to think like if it wasn't free.

[Dylan Ander]

I don't think there's a single human.

[Unknown]

Being on the planet that would use it.

[Dylan Ander]

Or it's tied to Google Ads.

[Unknown]

It's the only reason. But other than that. Yeah, like, you know, our AI also crushes like a lot of people say they have AI, that's cool, but like we're like obnoxiously specific about like, hey.

[Dylan Ander]

Your people are scrolling down on your.

[Unknown]

PDPS a lot, but they're bouncing at.

[Dylan Ander]

A certain section that means you need to work on your copywriting in this and this section.

[Unknown]

So it's like wicked specific. Like my goal is like, hopefully my.

[Dylan Ander]

Brain is like for everyone for like a stupidly low price.

[Unknown]

Like that's kind of what we're going for there. So the web analytics just really plug and play. Just like universal analytics used to be. You've got more than enough data, you've.

[Dylan Ander]

Got more than enough AI to tell you what to do.

[Unknown]

So it's like I'd like to think a no brainer and like for the same thing, other companies would be charging like, I don't know, $5,000 a month.

[Dylan Ander]

And like really preying on the bigger companies.

[Unknown]

But I hate that like it should be affordable. It's, you know, stupid.

[Nick Sharma]

And it's just 29 no matter how big you are.

[Unknown]

For the web analytics, it starts at.

[Dylan Ander]

149 for the full behavioral suite and.

[Unknown]

Goes up to, you know, some clients are paying a thousand 1500amonth, but those are your nine figure companies, so.

[Nick Sharma]

Right, right, right.

[Unknown]

That's still wicked cheap.

[Nick Sharma]

What's the, what's the setup process? Is it quick Shopify app or.

[Unknown]

So I'm proud to say.

[Dylan Ander]

My mom installed it on a Shopify.

[Unknown]

On a Shopify store as my test to see if our onboarding was good. So if that's, if that works, then I'm pretty confident. You guys watching limited supply right now. So. Yeah, it's literally two minutes and you're done forever.

[Nick Sharma]

Sick. Yeah, we've been using it and we installed this on client sites when we roll them out. And it's been, it's been really helpful and it's also been interesting because we used to use clarity. So to see the difference between the clicks and the clicks. Driving revenue has been a big, honestly, probably the biggest benefit of using heat map, 100%.

[Unknown]

That's how we built it. That's why I have a original screenshot.

[Dylan Ander]

Of my current cto. They were a dev team for hire.

[Unknown]

And originally I was like, hey, is.

[Dylan Ander]

There a reason people aren't doing this? He's like, I don't know.

[Unknown]

I don't know if this is possible or not. We actually have two tech patents. We actually did pulled off the impossible.

[Dylan Ander]

Everyone's like, oh well that's like, why.

[Unknown]

Didn'T I think of that? It's one of those cool ideas that you think of. But the reason is it's really freaking hard to build. We've got 32 developers working away.

[Dylan Ander]

They're amazing and the, they're the Only reason why this thing literally even exists.

[Unknown]

So like, you know, we've been out.

[Dylan Ander]

For you know, a year year and.

[Unknown]

Change and like I'm like, how come.

[Dylan Ander]

All the other heat maps haven't done this?

[Unknown]

It seems pretty obvious to me. It's because they'd have to rebuild their whole platform.

[Dylan Ander]

Like they can't.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah, the, the heat map site is also just a good landing page for like B2B companies.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

[Nick Sharma]

Okay, I'm curious where you see the role. Like we, we obviously see AI a bunch. We have the Ecom AI summit coming up on June 25th. Where do you see AI's role in Croft? And even just outside of Heat map, like where do you think, what are some crazy ideas of how you think AI is going to come in? Like you know one, one thought I had the other day was instantly generative landing pages or instantly generative, even like product pages, depending on the source of the traffic, the location of the person, you know, the IP address. You can get a rough address, you can understand their income, you might, you know, change what kind of content is on the page. Where do you think AI is coming in?

[Unknown]

So first I'm going to give one disclaimer that I'm starting to hate the word AI.

[Nick Sharma]

Why you don't like anonymous Indians?

[Unknown]

There's not much difference in between advanced logic and decision trees and AI.

[Nick Sharma]

Agreed. A lot of it is just if then statements.

[Unknown]

It's just if then statements. So I'm like if you just have like 300 if then then statements.

[Dylan Ander]

Congrats. You have something that feels like AI.

[Unknown]

So it's like AI is bull crap.

[Dylan Ander]

It's just NLP which is natural language.

[Unknown]

Processing, which is like chat talking to you and it feeling that way.

[Dylan Ander]

That's the only innovation. All this other shit's been around forever.

[Unknown]

So that's kind of number one. So number two, the self optimizing website.

[Dylan Ander]

Is the thing that everyone's going after.

[Unknown]

There's companies like Data Milk I think.

[Dylan Ander]

Like they're, they're like an Australian company.

[Unknown]

Not super well known in the us.

[Dylan Ander]

Like they do crush, but what they.

[Unknown]

Do is they take certain widgets and.

[Dylan Ander]

Then they like optimize it for every single bit that you're talking about right now.

[Unknown]

Like what UTMs are they coming from, what AD are they coming from, where.

[Dylan Ander]

Are they based, what's their age, gender? Like if they do have that type.

[Unknown]

Of pii and then you know they just are like split testing it on their own. But that's limited to widgets. That's cool. Not gonna lie. I kind of pitched a version of.

[Dylan Ander]

The whole self optimizing website to my investors a year and a half ago.

[Unknown]

Because I thought that was the way.

[Dylan Ander]

But I realized analytics is never going.

[Unknown]

Away because it's always going to need to be there, which was super interesting.

[Dylan Ander]

They're like, so you were launching Google.

[Unknown]

Analytics and not like self optimizing websites.

[Dylan Ander]

I'm like, hell yeah.

[Unknown]

So that's been, that's been a change. But so AI inside of CRO you.

[Dylan Ander]

Need, you know, the icp like of the customer, you need to know about them. So if you don't have customer feedback.

[Unknown]

Surveys, you don't have heat maps and.

[Dylan Ander]

Screen recordings telling you what they're doing.

[Unknown]

On the website and then you know.

[Dylan Ander]

Like then eventually you'll be able to go there.

[Unknown]

So shout out to shoplift of the, you know, of the split testing platforms.

[Dylan Ander]

Visually IO, they're also doing this as well.

[Unknown]

They're, they're doing a lot of, you know, automated testing. But again that's not AI, that's the future of CRO. CRO is way too complex that like, you know. Yeah, you can make like, you know.

[Dylan Ander]

Landing page builders that happen right away.

[Unknown]

But the self optimizing website which is like, like logically, that's what everyone's running for. That's, you know, that's its own thing. And I don't think that will actually ever come true. It's always going to be deterministic trees that just tell you, oh, this person.

[Dylan Ander]

Came from this ad. We should put this product to the top of the collection page or move this down and like those are merchandising platforms.

[Unknown]

And what I really think is like.

[Dylan Ander]

Just going to be this amalgamation of like all these different ones.

[Unknown]

And then what I'm not going to tell you or I'll tell you offline is what we've got coming up which I think will change the game.

[Dylan Ander]

Remove the need for split testing, remove.

[Unknown]

The need for personalization and I think we can actually do all of it.

[Dylan Ander]

Without ever touching the website.

[Unknown]

So that's all I can give guys. But like, yeah, like just even if you don't sign up for Heat Map.

[Dylan Ander]

Just like follow me on Twitter or some shit.

[Unknown]

Like it's gonna be wild in about six months. You guys are gonna. Yeah, it's.

[Dylan Ander]

I'm pumped.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah. One, one other idea I had was like an agent where it basically it quickly looks at where the traffic is coming from and you know, I don't know how fast this can. I'm like the Indian who doesn't know how to code. So I'm just talking out of my ass. But, like, you know, imagine if you could see where the traffic is coming from, immediately scour Reddit, look at what the conversation is around the type of people where the traffic is coming from, and then immediately split test headlines on a landing page or something. Like, I think there's gonna be some crazy. There's also gonna be some crazy ways that agents are built to help people who are doing CRO a daily basis.

[Dylan Ander]

Couldn't agree more.

[Unknown]

We're building them just like, you know, most others. There's a lot of workflows. Like, if you guys, like, sign up for N8N or make.com or any of these, like, Nick, I could.

[Dylan Ander]

I could literally build what you're asking.

[Unknown]

Right now probably in like three or four hours. Like an mvp.

[Nick Sharma]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So it's like the access is there, and I'm like a 6 out of.

[Dylan Ander]

10 Jewish developer, not a 0 out of 10 Indian developers.

[Unknown]

So, you know, I can code. I'm just not the best. But yeah, we're.

[Dylan Ander]

We're pretty good.

[Unknown]

But, like, yeah, a lot of that exists if you just pull it together.

[Dylan Ander]

And the other cool thing is, like, if you guys go and actually do.

[Unknown]

Get your hands dirty inside of make.com, like, it's really just a more advanced.

[Dylan Ander]

Zapier, to be honest.

[Unknown]

And I'm sure everyone here knows zapier. Like, every single one of those workflows.

[Dylan Ander]

That you build, you can just commoditize.

[Unknown]

Into a SaaS and you'll make money.

[Dylan Ander]

For the next, like, three years.

[Unknown]

After that, you'll be bust.

[Dylan Ander]

Because, like, most people won't get their hands dirty.

[Unknown]

They just want to, like, click and, like, it works. So, like, most people won't do that.

[Dylan Ander]

So just go and build out a whole bunch of workflows, no matter what industry you're in, to be honest, and.

[Unknown]

Just, you can pro, you know, productize.

[Dylan Ander]

It and sell it as a SaaS.

[Unknown]

And boom, there you go. That's it.

[Nick Sharma]

I even think, like, did you ever used to use Power Editor back in the day when it existed?

[Unknown]

Oh, what a deep cut, right?

[Nick Sharma]

Like, Power Editor kind of forced you to learn all the pieces of what Ads Manager is built up of. And having used Power Editor, you kind of deconstruct the final product into a bunch of Lego pieces, but it allows you to use the final product later with 10 times more clarity because you know how everything works. And I think it's very similar here. The people who, you know, the next, like the next six months, every big software company is going to integrate AI and agents and all these workflows within it. But if you, if people don't spend even six hours max between now and the next month building these N8N workflows and understanding how the pieces work, they're not going to have a lot of clarity when in six months it's all just done by a couple of clicks and you know, they don't understand how the workflows actually work. And then I think the six months after that there's going to be marketplaces that pop up where I can build a suite of agents and people can pay me a licensing fee to download them or use them or somehow. I don't know how that's going to work.

[Unknown]

Dude, they're giving them out for free right now.

[Nick Sharma]

Who is?

[Unknown]

Like, there's so many people on like Twitter and LinkedIn that just do the like and comments and like give the N and N templates. All you have to do is like.

[Dylan Ander]

Insert your API key which you just go to OpenAI, just put it in.

[Unknown]

And like you pretty much have them totally.

[Dylan Ander]

So like that, that reality is already here.

[Nick Sharma]

I think there's going to be like a proper consumer, like retail consumer, like retail investor quote unquote friendly marketplace with nice UI where like my mom goes and downloads an agent and pays 99 cents a month to have this agent do whatever it's supposed to do.

[Unknown]

There's.

[Dylan Ander]

The name escapes me.

[Unknown]

There's.

[Dylan Ander]

There's a whole bunch of companies.

[Unknown]

Just like I was saying, the self optimizing website, ton of companies gunning for.

[Dylan Ander]

The AI executive assistant.

[Unknown]

That's actually like a huge category investors.

[Dylan Ander]

Are throwing money into.

[Unknown]

So that's one I found interesting. So like that's kind of like I already have one. It's called Remise Shout out Ramis. I hope you're watching this, dude. You're amazing tools. You're also great.

[Dylan Ander]

Remiz is the og.

[Unknown]

No, but if you guys ever get the pleasure of interacting with Nick, just ask to talk to Ramis instead of Nick.

[Dylan Ander]

It's great.

[Nick Sharma]

Okay, Dylan, before we wrap up, what's one easy fix that every listener should implement on their website?

[Unknown]

Run a customer feedback survey, let them tell you what to make your copy and just do it.

[Nick Sharma]

And what do you ask in there to get that as what comes back?

[Dylan Ander]

Questions that start with what and how.

[Unknown]

It's negotiating tactic from Never Split the.

[Dylan Ander]

Difference by Chris Voss.

[Unknown]

So what are you looking for? People are like, why did you choose us?

[Dylan Ander]

Over others say no.

[Unknown]

What made you choose us over a competitor?

[Dylan Ander]

What do you look for when buying?

[Unknown]

Like, you know, supplements for example, or sneakers. Right.

[Nick Sharma]

How.

[Unknown]

What is most important?

[Dylan Ander]

Yeah, like what's most important? You in buying for them. Like, how do you think about buying sneakers?

[Unknown]

You know, and like you can find.

[Dylan Ander]

Things that are, you know, unique to them. They give you your usp.

[Unknown]

It's like you guys as the founders.

[Dylan Ander]

You may work really hard to make the certain material, but like the customers.

[Unknown]

Don'T give a heck about it. Like, that's it. So like, like just let your customers tell them, like, ask them what they want. Tell them what they want and give.

[Dylan Ander]

Them what they want, which is money. The only, the only best practice CRO in the world is just asking your.

[Unknown]

Customers, looking at data and just fucking doing it.

[Nick Sharma]

Couldn't agree more. And that data you can then leverage in subject lines. Ad copy, site copy, everything everywhere.

[Unknown]

Like if, honestly, if you have like.

[Dylan Ander]

A media buying agency and like they're.

[Unknown]

Not running some form of feedback, switch to Sharma Brands.

[Nick Sharma]

Love it. Amazing. Well, Dylan, where can people find you? Hit you up. Learn about Heatmap. Try Heatmap.

[Unknown]

So the domain's really hard to remember.

[Dylan Ander]

It's heatmap.com.

[Unknown]

No, I love my domains. So yeah, go to heatmap.com, check it out, look all around.

[Dylan Ander]

You can join Conversion Party if you scroll down to the bottom. I actually do write our newsletters, so.

[Unknown]

I'll be giving CRO advice all the time, every Wednesday. So join Conversion party. Super fun Ylanander on all socials. And also I've got a book, I'm dropping the name right here.

[Nick Sharma]

Wow.

[Unknown]

It's called Billion Dollar Websites.

[Nick Sharma]

Amazing.

[Dylan Ander]

And lessons from optimizing 5 billion.

[Unknown]

So it's literally with the publishers right now.

[Dylan Ander]

Just got interior book designs.

[Unknown]

It's all looking good.

[Dylan Ander]

We're shipping it to printing in about.

[Unknown]

Like early next week. So that'll take about six weeks.

[Dylan Ander]

I'll send some early copies out.

[Unknown]

So if you guys want DM me, I'll put you guys on a list and we'll get them out together. Literally every bit of knowledge I have, I put 2,000 hours into that shit. So like any question you can ask me is in that book and It'll be like 20 bucks. So, like pumped for everyone to have billion dollar websites.

[Nick Sharma]

Amazing. Well, Dylan, thank you for coming on.

[Unknown]

Pleasure, Nick.

[Nick Sharma]

Thanks for listening. We'll be back. Next time to cut through the noise on cpg retail and E commerce. If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend. And be sure to subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss the next one.