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Limited Supply
S12 E9: Story of a Subscription Empire (with Michael Broukhim, Co-CEO + Co-Founder of FabFitFun)
01:03:07
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- [00:01]
Nick Sharma
Welcome back to season 12 of limited supply, the only commerce podcast with unfiltered and refreshingly hot takes. I'm your host, Nick Sharma, and when I'm not recording, I'm behind the scenes scaling your favorite celebrity and consumer brands. Let's start talking all things direct to consumer. Today's sponsor is Omnisend. Email marketing. That actually makes sense. Omnisend gives you powerful features without the clunky, complicated and overpriced experience. Email SMS flows reporting everything you need. Learn more about how Omnisend stacks up against its competitors at NICK co. Omnisend. All right, welcome back to another episode of Limited Supply. This week is actually another fun episode. I recorded a interview with my friend Michael who's the founder CEO of FabFitFun. And you know, if you don't know FabFitFun, you've probably, you probably know somebody who's been a subscriber. They have an insane amount of subscribers. They're one of the biggest subscription box companies that exist. They're one of the first to start. They have largely pioneered the model but also innovated on it quite a bit. Whether it was through M and A, whether it was through, you know, them building out their entire pick and pack and three PL operation. You know, they've got over 650,000 square feet of fulfillment center. It's just very interesting. They're about a 300 plus employee company and so they do a lot of really cool stuff, stuff internally, whether it's buying companies, whether it's scaling out different operations they find to be helpful to companies within their umbrella, whether it's launching new companies like the Unhide Blanket and anyways, I, you know, this interview was funny because we did it at Sub Summit in front of a live audience so you might hear a little bit of background. But this interview was just largely driven by my own curiosity. So you'll get a little peek inside my brain and kind of what I was interested in. But I hope you enjoy the interview. There was some good, really good nuggets in here and if you have any questions you want to ask Michael, you can reach out to Michael directly. If you want to ask him but you don't know where to find him, just DM me on Twitter and I'm happy to ping him. So I hope you enjoy this episode and I'll see you next week. All right, Michael, well, welcome to Limited Supply. It's an honor to have you here. We've known each other for a couple years now and now I get to finally Hear your story.
- [02:26]
Michael
Honored to be here. Big fan of your show and all your work, and happy to be here at the Sub Summit too, and with an audience. Awesome.
- [02:34]
Nick Sharma
Amazing. Yeah. Today we're live at sub summit 2025 at the Sheraton in Dallas. It's one of the conferences I love coming to every year, actually, and so I'm excited to be here. So to start us off, Michael, why don't you give us a quick background? What is FabFitFun? Why did it start? Where are you based? Just give us the elevator pitch.
- [02:52]
Michael
Sure. I mean, we've been at this for a bit, but, you know, the core of FabFitFun, what we're best known for is our subscription box service where we curate products in beauty, fashion, fitness, wellness, home decor, all of women's lifestyle. You get full size products four times a year. And, you know, our boxes range from, you know, about $55 a quarter, and you're getting north of 2, $300 worth of retail value in each box. We're based in Los Angeles and started the. Started the brand in 2010, launched the boxes in 2013. And we've evolved the business in all sorts of other directions. You know, from taking it kind of this kind of discovery curation platform to, you know, launching some of our own brands and building some B2B services and all sorts of things in between. So that's kind of the highlights.
- [03:55]
Nick Sharma
The first three years you guys were in business and you weren't doing boxes, what were you guys selling or offering?
- [04:02]
Michael
So, you know, the brand started in 2010. The company actually started in 2007. And the initial company that I started with a friend of mine in college was actually building websites for politicians.
- [04:16]
Nick Sharma
Wow.
- [04:17]
Michael
So we've come a long way from that. We were building websites and doing media.
- [04:22]
Nick Sharma
Buys at that time. Were there. Were there all those CMSs that are made for politician sites like there are now?
- [04:30]
Michael
No. No.
- [04:31]
Nick Sharma
Were there all the same regulations and rules, though?
- [04:33]
Michael
This was the wild west. We, you know, so if you think of the 08 cycle, and, you know, our client actually was. Our first client was Rudy Giuliani in 2004. Yeah, he's come a long way since then. So he was America's mayor in 2007. In 2004, you had Howard Dean, who was innovative with basically doing the first things that anyone was doing online in the Internet. And so this 2008 cycle, you know, all these candidates were just kind of scrambling for young kids who knew anything about the Internet. You know, we were literally explaining like what is Twitter? What is what, what is a blog? What does it mean that someone could write comments on a blog? You know, so we were explaining some of the basics and we knew how to build websites and we started picking up clients. We, me and my original partner in this had already accepted real jobs. And then we saw like this, this is a different path. And we just kept going down that path and, and we built an agency. So we built an agency business doing media buys, doing web development, design services. Initially it was focused in politics because just that's where they were hiring little young kids. And then eventually we made our way. I wanted to be back in la, so we started working with celebrities and Hollywood folks and out of that we birthed FabFitFun. So when we started working more in the celebrity space, my brother joined the business and we became co CEOs and co founders. And we've been that way for well over a decade now. We would get invited to, you know, cool parties in LA doing web stuff for these different celebrities and they'd have these gifting suites and you know, in those gifting suites you'd get to try the coolest, new, trendiest stuff. And we thought that that was just the coolest thing to go, go to the gifting suite and get, get gifted stuff. And you know, how could you make that into a consumer experience? And that was kind of some of the genesis for what we eventually came out with. FabFitFun.
- [06:42]
Nick Sharma
That's amazing. It's funny, there's a couple of parallels. I also started my career doing social media marketing for celebrities and at some point I worked on a presidential campaign and we had the same thing where we had, you know, it's like everybody's banging their head against the wall and then some 19 year old kid who knows about meme pages comes in and just takes over all the campaign budget to blast something out.
- [07:02]
Michael
Yeah, I actually tell people that I don't know if campaigns and politics is, you know, it's a tough career, but early, early in your career it's a great place to be because you know.
- [07:16]
Nick Sharma
You get that like agency environment where it's just boiler room.
- [07:19]
Michael
I mean you think of it, it's like it's a startup, right? A campaign is going from 0 to 60 overnight. All of a sudden they have to like have you know, staff in every position and you know, they're trying to do high caliber stuff and often it attracts missionaries. So you're getting kind of punching above your weight in terms of like the talent level. And so early in your career, like I had no business advising of presidential campaign as a 21 year old or 22 year old. But, you know, had that opportunity. And then we worked with various Senate campaigns and gubernatorial campaigns. And so, you know, by the time I was starting to navigate my way through Hollywood, it was, it was an impressive body of work. The things, the projects we had worked on, the level we had worked at, the amount of spend we had facilitated. And so we.
- [08:05]
Nick Sharma
And that was pre. Rules, no rules. Right.
- [08:08]
Michael
I mean, it was. I wouldn't say there were no rules. I mean, I mean there's certainly like, your campaigns have like FEC rules and stuff too. Right. Like, so there's.
- [08:16]
Nick Sharma
But like Facebook had no rules.
- [08:18]
Michael
Yeah, I mean, we. I ran some of the first ads ever on Facebook.
- [08:21]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [08:21]
Michael
And I personally ran them. Right. So. So I cut my teeth on, you know, now I can't even go into that ads manager. I like, I get lost. I've tried. I've like, let me, you know, brush off, dust off my shoulders and get in there. But it's like, it's a much more complex thing. But, you know, early days, you know, one person who was, you know, playing with Photoshop and quickly iterating, you could hit some bankers on these little thumbnail ads. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I did a lot of that for a few years. And yeah, Facebook was a. I mean, I was also, I was a Harvard undergrad. So I saw Facebook go from the very, very, very beginning. It launched, I think I'm user number 1104 on Facebook.
- [09:10]
Nick Sharma
Wow.
- [09:12]
Michael
And you know, the first version of Facebook, everyone could go to anyone's profile and there was what's called a wall. And you could erase whatever was on that wall and you could put whatever you wanted on that wall. You could like kind of graffiti their wall. So I mean, Facebook was a very, you know, different animal back then.
- [09:30]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. No one writes Happy birthday on people's walls anymore.
- [09:33]
Michael
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, one thing I think they might have. I don't know, maybe it'll come back. Some days there was these virtual gifts and I thought that was the coolest thing.
- [09:41]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. I'm surprised those didn't come back with NFTs.
- [09:43]
Michael
I thought that was a magical business for them where people were just paying $2 to send a picture of a toilet. Toilet paper roll.
- [09:53]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [09:54]
Michael
And put it on someone else's wall.
- [09:55]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. So, okay, so you started going to these gifting suites. You saw all these gifts. You probably saw a lot of them were just sample sizes. Then you thought, okay, there's maybe a business opportunity here to turn this into a subscription box. Or how did that go from There's a concept here. Where did you see the opportunity of subscription? Because subscription wasn't a thing back then.
- [10:14]
Michael
So the site we built initially, FabFitFun was an editorial website and it was modeled off of. We had built websites for other celebrities. We'd become close to the MySpace team because somewhere in between all this, I built a product called totspot, which was a social network for parents to keep track of their kids milestones and share private photos and videos. This is kind of pre Instagram days that got us close to the MySpace team who thought it was an interesting asset.
- [10:41]
Nick Sharma
If that ever got in the Indian community, it would just be, well, my kid got this on the APs and my kid did this on the SATs.
- [10:47]
Michael
The Persians would probably do the same thing on there. And so we were building these kind of, you know, for people who wanted to go beyond MySpace, which was the biggest social network at the time, they wanted to build editorial driven websites and we were building these for celebrities and we said, hey, this is a good model. It's actually, you know, interesting. So why don't we try to do one more as a joint venture? So we built FabFitFun as a joint venture with Juliana Rancic in 2010. And we built an audience. She was, you know, she was the anchor of E News and had a decent sized Twitter following. And so we built that audience and we had clients who were doing E commerce subscriptions. Beach Mint, which was an early subscription commerce pioneer in Los Angeles, was a client of ours. We had seen, you know, Birchbox coming up. And so we saw that model, we thought, oh, there's something interesting there connected to this idea. And you know, our spin on it essentially was that, yeah, people aren't looking just to get samples in the mail. Which was kind of the, you know, one of Birchbox's and Ipsy's early kind of entries into those market. This could be a fundamentally new shopping experience. People like receiving real products, real value. And it's not just beauty they want actually, you know, they want. It's hard to stay on trend. I mean, that's the, I was gonna say one core insight, one of many, but of like our customer and the mindset is like, you know, it's a lot of pressure to be cool, to be on trend, to have nice things to make your space beautiful to. And if you can get someone to help surface what's Cool. And make it convenient and give a great value. That that's. That's something people really care about.
- [12:30]
Nick Sharma
What's so interesting is the concept of receiving a curated box back then was probably so weird because people are so used to going into a retail store and picking up what they want. But today, the content world is exactly how you were basically doing discovery back then, which is everybody is just being fed stuff that they think they're going to like or is cool or trendy, and it's up to them to decide what they keep continuing on with 100%.
- [12:55]
Michael
I mean, you know, I often tell our team, yes, we're a curator, and we are, you know, we have to be extremely good at that discovery piece, but we also have to be extremely good at delivering real value. And so everything you get at FabFund is at the best price. You could get it anywhere on the Internet at all times. And we have that not only as a guarantee, but it's just. It's the culture, because now people do discover by just following an influencer or a creator and just scrolling their Instagram, and that's discovery. And you could always purchase something one click away. So we've gotten really good at delivering, you know, kind of our. Our marketplace essentially is helping brands find new customers. So brands work with us because we can put them at scale in front of, you know, arguably the most important audience in the world. It's, you know, we have the women with the keys to the household, kind of a lot of millennial moms and, you know, people who you have what.
- [13:56]
Nick Sharma
I call is the W, which is wealthy women with kids, wine drinkers and Whole foods shoppers, and they prefer whole wheat over white bread. Is that you raise your hand. That's me for sure.
- [14:10]
Michael
That's definitely a lot of them. And, you know, at this point, I think I did some math on this. I think in a pretty broad age, demo of, call it, let's say like 25 to 55. I think one in five or one in six women in America have been a FabFitFun subscriber at this point.
- [14:25]
Nick Sharma
Wow.
- [14:27]
Michael
So, you know, we've touched a lot of women, so it's not so narrow, but I think it's a good description. And for brands, you know, it's interesting because we. Whenever, you know, people are talking about Facebook ads, are they working? What are you doing? How do you know? You know, we're kind of on both ends of it, because on the one hand, yes, CPMs have gotten harder. The iOS 14 changes in 2021, you know, I think hurt everyone. And there's been that whole journey that we've been on, but at the same time we've been, we've become that much more valuable to the brands that we work with.
- [15:00]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. And also your brand is, your brand is so strong, like out of, out of, you know, the advertisers advertising on Facebook who are complaining about CPMs, a lot of those don't have strong brands. They're really just arbitrage excel businesses that are trying to run ads cheaper than what they're selling the product for, minus cogs. But you know, FabFitFun is a brand and a platform. Really. How did you guys decide to go from subscription boxes to the next level?
- [15:27]
Michael
Very iteratively. I mean, because, I mean I keep thinking of. And we're still doing this like, it's like Russian dolls.
- [15:34]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [15:34]
Michael
You open one and what's next and what's next and what's next? And you know, we, we kind of take the mindset that if we're not growing and evolving, we're dying. And so we're always thinking about, you know, I always have some level of existential angst about you wouldn't be a founder if you. Yeah, like, and so I'm always thinking, you know, what do we need to do to innovate so that, you know, I can still get invited back to Sub Summit next year. And you know, when we launched our boxes, it was extremely differentiated and innovative and that was a hit. And you know, some things became kind of natural, natural extensions off of what customers were telling us. And then some things we looked at like, what are we really good at and what else can we do that maybe customers aren't even thinking about? And that's led us in a lot of interesting directions. So, you know, we started at some point with just like, hey, maybe people want to add stuff to their box. And giving people, you know, a handful of options, four or five options to, you know, it does not include it in your box. But these are add ons.
- [16:38]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [16:39]
Michael
And now, you know, our add on sale is huge business. It's, you know, thousands of SKUs available every season. And it's evolved into this broader entire kind of shopping ecosystem which we're, we're almost re. We're on a journey to reposition Fabto Fun essentially as a full fledged retailer. We will describe it, we increasingly describe it as a shopping club and you can think of the subscription box as the end cap of the store. So it's not that the Box isn't going anywhere. It's just that it's the, that's the highest visibility, highest velocity SKUs in our store. But there is a store and there's thousands of items from thousands of brands and they're constantly rotating and you know our, our North Star on this kind of core retail business is essentially being the inverse of TJ Maxx. So if you think of TJ Maxx as a place where there's this treasure hunt environment and you're getting discounts but for the most part you're getting discounts on products at the end of the product life cycle. So people associate TJ Maxx with liquidation end of season. That's kind of where products go after they've been elsewhere. FabFitFun is essentially discount at the front of the product lifecycle. So we work with brands on launches.
- [17:51]
Nick Sharma
But it doesn't even feel like a discount to the consumer, which is actually the great part. Like they don't feel like they're buying something at a discount and then expect a discount.
- [17:59]
Michael
So we've done a lot of work with brands to make sure the brands feel that they're in an elevated environment. Yeah. That they, that it's, this is not the type of thing. First of all, it's not. We don't rely on Google like product listings to drive, you know, we're not, we're not cannibalizing brand traffic. It doesn't feel like oh like someone, if one, if a brand works with us. They're not, this is all incremental for them. You know, for brands we're the biggest no brainer ever. I always think that, I think you know, and every brand that we've thought like oh this, this is a hard brand, they don't get it yet or whatever now. Like it's just a different, it's a different posture. Brands love working with us. They see the value, you know, when they're in one of our boxes, their sales fly on retail wherever they are.
- [18:41]
Nick Sharma
Is there a tipping point between you had to really sell brands on being a part of this to now brands are chasing you?
- [18:49]
Michael
I think it was, there probably was a tipping point. I'm trying to identify like when exactly that happened. But you know, somehow maybe, you know, maybe, Maybe that like 2020 era especially, you know we had a big surge also like in that, in that like kind of small Covid at home pocket. I think people were just more open to trying new things. And then on the heels of that, you know, I think people struggling with Facebook after That and things like that. So I think, I think people just saw like, I mean, we've been at this now for, you know, 12 years, and at some point we had six, seven, eight years of evidence that this is really good for a brand to work with us.
- [19:36]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [19:38]
Michael
And, you know, we just walk them through that and we, we've also developed ways that you can kind of ladder into the biggest programs that we do. And so now it's more, you know, picking the right stuff and making sure it's a good fit for our audience. And we still, there's still brands we chase. You know, I don't want to. You know, we're humble. There's brands that like, oh, we got to get that one now. And we still have that target list and that hunger.
- [20:02]
Nick Sharma
That's awesome. You mentioned Facebook was a big channel back in the day. Specifically fbx, those right hand rail programmatic ads. What were some of the largest growth channels over the evolution of the business?
- [20:15]
Michael
Yeah, I mean, the meta ecosystem has always been kind of top tier for us, but we've, we've done and tried and dabbled and been in every single pocket. And I would say, you know, we've done tv, we've done podcasts, we've done whatever. I'd say the one that stands out to me is kind of like one that we became really well known for was influencers. And, you know, I use the word influencers and not creators because at the time that we really nailed it. I think that's. That was kind of the lingo. There was actually a New Yorker article where it was called how to be an influencer. And the last line in the article was, and you're nothing until you've worked with FabFitFun. That's amazing because we really figured out this whole. This whole ecosystem of reality stars, essentially, like all the Real Housewives.
- [21:03]
Nick Sharma
Well, yeah, you started with E, which is such a huge advantage because no one usually starts with reality stars. I was thinking about this last night. A lot of times when brands work with a reality star, there's one employee inside who's like, I really love the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. And they try to find that person. But you guys started with that.
- [21:19]
Michael
It was kind of native to us and the bachelor, bachelorettes and sort of those, those ecosystems. And there was a period of time where, you know, and this is no longer true, so, you know, where we've been reinventing our creative strategy, but there was a period of time where organic reach on meta was still a Real thing. And these folks had real organic reach and people were tuning in every week to watch their shows. And we had created sort of just a perfect, you know, FabioFun is an amazing thing for a creator and influencer too, because if you think of yourself as a content maker, you kind of don't want to be hawking the same thing all the time.
- [21:57]
Nick Sharma
Totally.
- [21:57]
Michael
Right. Like, you can only tell people about, you know, an age sleep mattress so many times, which is an amazing mattress that Nick was talking to me about last night, you know, but your audience has heard it at some point, right? And so what's awesome about FabFitFun is every season we're the coolest new products. Right? And so there's a real synergy between what creators are trying to do and influencers are trying to do, which is talk about new things every season, and FabFitFun, which is literally just bringing to the table new things every season. And we had really dialed that in with that influencer ecosystem. And we've been building it up in this kind of new creator landscape. It's just different. It's a different landscape.
- [22:36]
Nick Sharma
So when you started working with these people, they were influencers. Today, everybody's just called a creator, no matter how many followers they have. How. How are creators a part of your content strategy? Whether or not they're the ones pushing the content or FabFitFun is pushing the content?
- [22:53]
Michael
I mean, we use a long list of creators to create content. I mean, I mean, that's, you know, I think the biggest difference between what I would say, like the era that we, you know, in a lot of ways pioneered, but that 2016-2020 kind of era, you know, at that time, you know, we. We ended up sitting side by side with the Facebook product team to help them build their white listing tool because they. We had just been doing it hacky. Like we've been going to the influencer and be like, hey, we want to get into your business manager.
- [23:25]
Nick Sharma
Yeah, that was before they had the. With the partnership thing, right?
- [23:27]
Michael
Yeah, exactly. Like we built that. We, like, we were their design partner in that with meta now, you know, I think. And it makes total business sense. You always have to think of, like, what's going to make. What's going to make Meta money. I joked with Nick last night. I think like, a lot of the, you know, tech direct to consumer e commerce ecosystem is on one end was like a bunch of VCs, and on the other end, the profits are metas. And it just kind of sifts through all the SaaS and the branding or whatever and somehow Meta. So you have to be very attuned to what is going to make Meta happy. And, you know, I think once at some point, the organic distribution on Meta wasn't what it used to be. And so I think meta, you know, we think of the creator ecosystem a lot more as content creation and a lot less as distribution. And then distribution is just kind of a different set of things that we think about in terms of building own channels, in terms of, you know, paid media spend and things like that.
- [24:27]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. With creators, is whitelisting a huge part of customer acquisition dollars?
- [24:32]
Michael
It's a good chunk.
- [24:33]
Nick Sharma
Good chunk.
- [24:34]
Michael
Yeah.
- [24:34]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. We've always found whitelisting to be huge.
- [24:36]
Michael
Yeah, I mean, I'm shocked.
- [24:37]
Nick Sharma
More people, I'm sure about. Actually, everybody doesn't whitelist even their own personal handle.
- [24:41]
Michael
Well, it's just part of the creative. Right. Like who's delivering the message.
- [24:45]
Nick Sharma
Right. Yeah, right.
- [24:46]
Michael
Like it's, it's, you know, I think consumers, they, they, they, you know, people just trust people more than they trust brands, which is normal. Not, it's no surprise. And so if you, if the message is coming from a person rather than a brand and someone you like or admire, you're interested in, it's, it's part of the, part of the creative. I think that's how I think about it.
- [25:10]
Nick Sharma
So when you started, probably most of your spend was very like, lower funnel, more direct response style. Today, as FabFitFun's a huge company, how do you split dollars between investing and building the brand and the awareness and what the brand thesaurus is and the direct response, buy now marketing.
- [25:33]
Michael
I mean, we're constantly evolving on this. You know, we do think about, we do think about top of funnel in a different way than we think about just like, you know, more, you know, more traditional performance, direct response. But we also try to make as much of our ads as possible be, you know, essentially what, you know, I think some people dub it like performance brand marketing, something like that. Right. So we don't. We have some key value props that we want to include in all of our creative. And we think if we just keep repeating those things, you know, they can, they can do their work throughout the funnel. Then I think top of funnel becomes a lot more of, you know, working with creators, working with podcasts, working with, you know, even. We used to do a lot of events. Now we're bringing some of those events back. You know, it's a little bit more of a Hustle, I think at the top of the funnel.
- [26:34]
Nick Sharma
Yeah, yeah. I always think of this concept of performance branding, which is like building the brand equity on the back of your performance media. And the same way, just constantly reiterating and reiterating the same things, it gets ingrained in people's brains.
- [26:47]
Michael
Yeah. I think that's how we largely built our, our brand, our audience, our community was, was, you know. Yeah.
- [26:55]
Nick Sharma
So. Okay, so another thing that I think a lot of people miss out on, especially now because there's so much competition, is the general like top of funnel you get that's more on the earn media side, whether it's creators picking up organically, events, including your box, PR outlets, you know, things like that. Do you think that that world of earned media has gotten significantly more challenging since the last five, six years?
- [27:19]
Michael
I think it's just different. Right. I think there was a time where earned media was largely associated with like the press and, and I don't think the traditional press. You know, there was a time where we would be like geeked out to be in, I don't know, like Vogue or something like that or, you know.
- [27:36]
Nick Sharma
Now it's like, oh, it gets 300 views.
- [27:37]
Michael
I don't. Yeah. Now that's just like, maybe it's a logo you could put somewhere on your.
- [27:42]
Nick Sharma
Site until they start charging you.
- [27:44]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. Not that we even have the logo. I don't know if we have the logo. Sometimes we do, sometimes you don't. Yeah. But I think that the traditional media outlets no longer is really what you're talking about when you're talking about earned media. What you're talking about is buzz and consumers buzzing and reposting and retweeting, etc. And we try to capture that through our, as much as possible through our products. So like, for example, right now we have a, we've been doing these mid season collabs where we create one version of the box. Our boxes are fully customizable. Now you sign up for FabFitFun, you get to essentially choose off of a prefix menu what you want. And you know, one version that you could choose now is, is a set of vacation products and you know, vacation the brand vacation, which is like a really cool trending brand. So, you know, we have the essentially FabFitFun X vacation collab box and it's, you know, they are a really cool brand that has a lot of kind of cachet and a big following, etc. And by doing a collab and creating a bunch of creative and that's all on our Instagram. You go see it, you know, it cuts above the noise and we see that breaking through and things like that. So we try to as much as possible think about like, what can we do on a curation or product level that might cut through. Through the noise.
- [29:01]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. I always think of the concept of like brand versus publisher and publisher just really being that they have an audience that will come to them if they ask for it. And I feel like a good, you know, a testament of a good brand is you can also be a publisher. Kind of like how you are a publisher to vacation in that sense.
- [29:18]
Michael
And that's our roots. Our roots were we were just an editorial. So we started just as content. We wrote a daily newsletter in lifestyle. So that's. We've always kind of had that DNA and we've never, we've, you know, and we're also different than a traditional brand. We're not a product brand, we're a curational brand. We're more of a retailer than we are a brand. And so if we can't tell the story of the brands that we work with, we're kind of doa.
- [29:44]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [29:45]
Michael
So we've got to, we, we've had to become good at storytelling.
- [29:48]
Nick Sharma
So. Okay, so you were, you, you've got the box. The box business is amazing. You guys started launching other brands. How did you decide what to launch, when to launch it, why to launch that specific product? How'd you go about that?
- [30:02]
Michael
Yeah, so, you know, we've done a lot of experimentation on what we call house brands and we have a handful of them and they play a great role within our ecosystem and it's awesome. But where we've had a lot more success is we have a merchandising team that's constantly out there in market, receiving pitches at trade shows, hearing what the latest, what people are coming up with. Often I'll see. I also do a fair amount of angel investing and we're often part of a go to market strategy for a new up and coming consumer product brand. And so, you know, we've developed a program we call FabFitFund with a D at the end of it where we essentially roll out the red carpet for an early stage consumer product brand and give them everything from forward looking PO commitments to access to different parts of our stack. We've converted our warehouse into a 3 PL. We actually recently bought a packaging business. We obviously have expertise in creative and performance marketing and other areas of things that we've been doing for A dozen years now. And that FabFitFund program, really what we're looking for is something that's quite early in its journey where we can be a meaningful edge for that company and be, we call ourselves like a queen maker in that capacity. And it's a combination of meeting the right set of operators and founders and the trends that we're seeing based on our merchandising team and the consumer insights that we receive regularly because we're also constantly polling our customers. What do you like, what did you like, why did you like it? Et cetera, looking at sell through rates, etc. So like the, the, the overlap of all of that has made us made some really great bets. So I would talk a couple quick examples, but at some point we knew there was a big trend around faux fur blankets and people were very in our audience wanted them, we knew they wanted them, we developed them, we sourced it, et cetera. And we actually, you know, we do, we do a. Sometimes we work with brands where we actually source a product and there's an established brand and they, they want to go to market with that product with us. In this case, we thought that's what we were going to do and that that partnership fell apart at the last second and instead we launched an entirely new brand. It was called Unhide, which is a faux fur blanket brand. Beautiful. We had a joint venture partner who was a good friend of ours, who's very talented brand builder and you know, that brand now itself is, you know, an eight digit revenue brand growing well beloved in our ecosystem and has a presence outside of our ecosystem. And you know, that that was really popping from a consumer insight standpoint that people wanted faux furbearance. Another example, in 2018, everyone was pitching us a pots and pans business. Of course, everyone I like, we literally had, you know, and these have all become great companies. So there's, they had the right to, there was an opportunity clearly to do. You know, I think the thought at the time was something like, well like Casper did this for mattresses, Warby did this for eyeglasses and no one's touched the pots and pans. And I think like five different entrepreneurs had this idea at the same time. And we saw the pitch from five different entrepreneurs and that was when we decided like, hey, maybe we roll out the red carpet. We establish a program where we can, rather than try to build these brands entirely ourselves, let's really hug this, this set of founders and help them build something great. And we ended up partnering with an amazing set of founders Amir and Shiza who've built our place. Right. And you know, they have the always plan, which is an incredible, you know, I think it's the top selling single SKU house product on Shopify.
- [33:57]
Nick Sharma
Wow.
- [33:59]
Michael
And, and we've been on that journey with them. You know, I sit on the board today and they've built an amazing business. And so. And we've done deals like that now probably, you know, once a quarter. So we've kind of brought it down. The way we think about the business now is this kind of core retailer at the center, which is kind of this inverse TJ Maxx with this constellation of brands that either we, we own and operate directly or we have a JV in or our broader brand partner set who we just partner with.
- [34:29]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [34:30]
Michael
And then a connective tissue of B2B services that we've started productizing like our 3PL business and Boox, which is our packaging business.
- [34:40]
Nick Sharma
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- [35:39]
Michael
So it's interesting, we say has to fit in the box because the always pan didn't fit in our box. Yeah, but we love the brand and we saw the opportunity and we, we worked with them to figure out how to use the box as a promotional vehicle for our place. And we ended up developing other products. We had a lunchbox from our place, we had wine glasses from our place. And those have been in the box. And they, you know, they put the brand in front of the consumer's mind. We tell the story of the brand. The consumer then, you know, has the opportunity to go and learn more and find the other products and become, you know, affiliated with that brand. So I'd say there's like a fair amount of creativity that we understand how to find a brand that we think will, our audience will have an affinity for. And even if the product specifically doesn't fit the exact contours of what makes a great fabfitfun box product, that just means that product is in on the end cap. Right. We have this broader store and we have our storytelling capabilities and we have an audience that, you know, trusts us to choose the right things for them and tell the right stories. And so we're pretty flexible. And we've also positioned the brand to be somewhat intentionally broad. You know, we don't think of ourselves as a beauty vertical. Like, we think even though half our business is beauty. We do fashion accessories, we do home decor, we do wellness. So, yes, you know, we're probably not going to do like, I don't know what, like, you know, we haven't found a way to. We have a men's, small, men's program. So I don't want to say we won't do it. Like, you know, Sean Frank is a good friend. I want to figure out how to get Ridge Wallet into our ecosystem, but it's not the sweet spot of our customer. Right, right. Although women, I guess, use Ridge Wallet too.
- [37:25]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [37:25]
Michael
I'm putting my foot in my mouth. I don't know what we. Maybe we'll do anything. I mean, we're creative.
- [37:29]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [37:29]
Michael
You know, like. But yes, we have a. We have a largely women focused audience. Call it between, you know, 20 to 60 years old is the sweet spot. But there's big tales on that and we are trying to focus on what they would love.
- [37:46]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. How, how, how have you guys thought about or used or do you use any sort of AI right now? Not just chat GPT, but like really, you know, you were talking about merchandising. You have merchandisers that are going out and scouring the web trade shows. Like, do you use AI in that process? All the data that you have, the surveys are using AI to consolidate.
- [38:07]
Michael
Yeah, there's. I mean, if you're an intellectually curious person, you're obsessed with AI right now. It's just so. It's just unbelievable. Right. Like, I mean, I talk to ChatGPT 10 times, 20 times a day, something like that. And you know, I think the lowest hanging fruit is for most e commerce is probably in the customer service area, which we've been applying and we're on a journey there to hopefully get to the automation rates that we think we should and can get to. But yes, absolutely. I mean, we're applying AI to summarize most meetings that are happening in our company. We're encouraging our team to. We have a channel where in our Slack where anyone who's used AI, etc. So on the merchandising team, specifically, we are. You know, it's like, it's a big focus area because I think there's so much opportunity there, especially in terms of, like, how to deal with both the massive amount of consumer insights, both the outbound and inbound kind of conversations and dialogue with brands. And then, you know, we, we have a whole kind of surveying consumer insights methodology around before we make purchasing decisions to kind of validate and we track brand Q scores, etc. And there's definitely ways which AI is being applied to all of that. And you know, kind of, we're. We're on that journey as well.
- [39:40]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. All right, last thing I want to chat about before we, before we come to you guys for some questions. So hopefully you guys have a couple of questions ready is growth with M and A. So you guys have gotten so big, you mentioned you started buying a couple of businesses. You know, I remember a few years ago, Harry's also went that strategy of. All right, we've gotten Harry's and Flamingo as big as we can, and the best way for us to increase is just buy more businesses. What's the thinking behind the M and A strategy?
- [40:05]
Michael
Yeah, you know, I think people ask me, you know, how do you stay with the same business for 12, 15 years? You got to keep it interesting. So we've kept evolving. And one of the ways to evolve once you've achieved a certain amount of scale is just think about what businesses are out there that you can add a tremendous amount of value to and vice versa. And we've now built a fair amount of infrastructure and capabilities that we know through our kind of incubation and fabfitfunded programs that apply well to. To existing or new brands and meaningfully will apply well to a range of brands and assets out there. And so we're, I find actually one of the most interesting things, you know, look at the biggest companies in the world, and a lot of their growth has been through really thoughtful strategic M and A. Whether it's Google, you know, buying YouTube and Android, meta buying Instagram and WhatsApp.
- [41:11]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [41:11]
Michael
Like, where would these companies be? And obviously, you know, we're not quite at that level or scale. Maybe you know, hopefully one day we will be. But we think we can, we can grow. We think we have all the permission in the world to go and take interesting assets, plug them into our ecosystem so that you know, two deals. I'll just talk about the two deals that we've, one we, we haven't fully publicly announced but this would be good opportunity to talk about it. And one which we did a year ago and we've announced. So a year ago we bought Pupbox which is, which was a corporate divestiture from Petco and that didn't last long.
- [41:46]
Nick Sharma
Right. They launched it and got rid of it quick. Right.
- [41:48]
Michael
So Petco actually bought Pup Box. So there's a great incredible founding team exited to Petco. I think Petco then tried to run with it and it didn't quite fit the thesis that they had initially and they were like what do we do with this? And we're, turns out we're really good at running boxes. And so you know, we were able to bring it into our ecosystem, lean out some of the opex and leverage the fact that you know, we, we have an incredibly capable supply chain team, logistics team, merchant team and all the cross sells, you know, a lot of our customers, over half of them have pets. Right. And vice versa. We've, you know, we've given pop box customers benefits in the FabFitFun ecosystem. So that's like an example of a deal we did and then on a totally different plane we recently, you know, we recently bought a company called Boox which is a eco conscious packaging business. You know, we're known for our boxes and we work with thousands of brands and we built a 3 PL business already that's, that's doing phenomenally well. And we're, you know, we're kind of world class in kidding. It's probably like, you know, as good as it gets. And so one other thing we wanted to offer to these customers was just we could be your packaging solution. And so we thought we had a tremendous entrepreneur who's built a great business and you know, provide packaging for companies like Goop and Road Beauty which just had an amazing exit yesterday or today? Yesterday. And so now we can offer our brands packaging.
- [43:30]
Nick Sharma
Wow.
- [43:30]
Michael
And so we're, we're trying to stack these B2B services as well to help balance kind of the, the overall corporate business.
- [43:36]
Nick Sharma
Amazing. What do you think, you know, with the 4U ification of content and discovery with, with brands bringing out membership programs now, what do you think is the future of subscription?
- [43:53]
Michael
I think, I think It's a double edged sword. On the one hand, I think subscription is a reciprocal commitment. It's a commitment from a customer. It's giving you a high intent signal that I'm going to continue to be a customer of yours, or at least.
- [44:15]
Nick Sharma
They want to be.
- [44:17]
Michael
You get a lot of predictability out of it.
- [44:19]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [44:20]
Michael
And with better predictability, you should be able to deliver more value and then it's on you to do that.
- [44:29]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [44:29]
Michael
And at the same time, I think people, the business world has become smart about this idea. Right. That subscriptions are good business models. There should be, if they're set, constructed. Right. This kind of optimal value exchange. And so everyone's trying to launch a subscription.
- [44:48]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [44:48]
Michael
And so the, the double edged sword of that is there's some probably subscription fatigue amongst consumers. Like how many of these do I want to commit to? And then, you know, I think as a result of that, these bundles are, are becoming, you know, the ones that are standing out are becoming more and more valuable. They're bundling more and more things. You have prime, which is like, you know, I don't even know what, what I don't get with prime at this point. And we've tried to kind of, you know, follow what are the natural extensions to what we're offering in FabFitFun? How do we keep adding to the membership value and bundle and be differentiated in our lane and where do we have permission to continue to expand? And I think, yeah, I mean, I think it makes sense to. There's a lot of, there's a lot of value that can come out of a subscription, but it's, it's a high bar. It's a higher and higher bar.
- [45:44]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [45:44]
Michael
As time goes on.
- [45:46]
Nick Sharma
Have you ever, there's just a random curious question. Have you ever thought like, you know, you guys process so many orders and a lot of repeated orders. Have you ever thought about creating your own FABFITFUN credit card to reduce payment processing fees?
- [45:58]
Michael
Yes, we've thought about it. It's like somewhere on that list of.
- [46:03]
Nick Sharma
Like things to do.
- [46:04]
Michael
Yeah. I mean it's probably every year or two.
- [46:07]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [46:07]
Michael
That I'm like, oh, we should do a credit card.
- [46:09]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [46:10]
Michael
And I know there's probably like a credit card vendor here in the expo hall that can help me with it. You know, we just, you know, I think we probably, we will end up doing that. I think it's a question of how do we do it thoughtfully in a way that delivers real value, real differentiated value.
- [46:28]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [46:29]
Michael
Um, and in, in My ideal, it's not like, especially when we think about new businesses, we don't want them to be, hey, we have a captive audience and we can just get them hooked onto this thing. We want, we want it to be a wedge into an entirely new business.
- [46:44]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [46:45]
Michael
So if, if Pub Box is just about upselling pet subscriptions to existing FabFitFun subscribers, it's not quite that interesting. If Pup Box, because it's unique and it is unique. Like we do age and stage based programming both in terms of the curations and training guides, etc. In Pumpbox. So it's like pretty differentiated out in the market and we think that's a path towards being independently a really, really interesting business. And I'd want to think the same way about a credit card.
- [47:14]
Nick Sharma
Yeah, fully agreed. All right, we're going to do five quick questions and then we'll go to audience questions. So first, what's one subscription metric that's overrated?
- [47:25]
Michael
Overrated?
- [47:26]
Nick Sharma
Yeah. Gets talked about a lot, but you're just like, why the fuck are you focusing on that?
- [47:42]
Michael
This is gonna like, you know, retention has to be the North Star. And yet, you know, there are probably healthy versions, like in the abstract, without looking at like, what is the marketing program that you're running? It's not always apples to apples. So there could be, let's say like high turn programs that are really smart and good for you.
- [48:03]
Nick Sharma
Yeah.
- [48:03]
Michael
So that's, that's, that might be like, you know, I don't know if that's so surprising to say, but I think you can't get fixed. You know, I think every metric has to be contextualized, including churn.
- [48:14]
Nick Sharma
Yep. What about one growth hack you're tired of hearing about? I have a guess for yours.
- [48:22]
Michael
Do you?
- [48:23]
Nick Sharma
Which is just the upsell between your different companies.
- [48:26]
Michael
Oh yeah, Yeah. I mean, look, I think you have to be the reason upsell works in our environment is because FabFitFun is a cross sell platform. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not, it's not inorganic. Right. It's not a, like, hey, you came to buy a mattress and now we're selling you a watch or something. Right. It's. I'm here to discover new things. That's what people are telling us when they sign up for FabFitFun. So, so it's very organic to us. You know, I often am skeptical of like, of things that will help reduce churn that are tactical. Yeah, that's what I would say. I would say like Things that are tactical, that are, you know, that. And there may be like short term wins on there, but I think ultimately, like, you reduce Churn by having really happy customers.
- [49:15]
Nick Sharma
Yeah, agreed. And to your point, like the, the programming and the merchandising.
- [49:19]
Michael
Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, the, the product should reduce Churn.
- [49:22]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [49:23]
Michael
People aren't staying with prime because prime figured out how to optimize their cancel flow.
- [49:28]
Nick Sharma
Right.
- [49:28]
Michael
They have figured out how to optimize their cancel flow. And, and we should all do that. But that's not the leading reason why, you know, retention is high at Amazon.
- [49:38]
Nick Sharma
What about a brand that you secretly admire? It could be for anything. Their product, their team, their cancel flow.
- [49:48]
Michael
Yeah.
- [49:48]
Nick Sharma
Their ads.
- [49:49]
Michael
Yeah. I would, you know, not so secretly, but Seed, the Probiotic company, they're good friends of ours. We were early investors in them and I just think they've built like a phenomenal business. Super thoughtful about the brand in a way that like their website isn't like historically been like, it's pretty content rich, which it doesn't feel like the purely like dialed in for conversion hit you over the head with it because they're really passionate about telling the story about gut health and they've been doing it for a number of years now. And I think they've done a phenomenal job.
- [50:29]
Nick Sharma
Amazing. And last question is, what brand has your favorite packaging or unboxing experience?
- [50:34]
Michael
Crab tip. Fun.
- [50:34]
Nick Sharma
Of course. Okay, we're gonna take maybe three questions. We got one back there. Yeah.
- [50:48]
Michael
All right. Amazing. It's a great question.
- [51:02]
Nick Sharma
I'm going to just repeat the question. So the question was from. A new FabFitFun subscriber is gifting a huge channel of acquisition.
- [51:09]
Michael
It's a hugely underdeveloped channel for us is what I would say. It's. We need to do better. We need to make FabFun easier to gift. It is a, it's a wonderful gift. It's, it's, you know, people describe as. It's the gift that never stops giving. And we, we could, we could do more there. It's, it's not that it doesn't happen. It happens. You know, it happens all the time. But we haven't developed all of the, you know, kind of flows and functionality that I think would make it super smooth and easy to do.
- [51:45]
Nick Sharma
Next question. Right here.
- [51:48]
Michael
As someone that has started off from like a small company and then grown it over time to become a much bigger company, if you could go back in time to the very beginning of your career as a CEO, what's One piece of advice that you would give yourself, knowing what you do now.
- [52:02]
Nick Sharma
So question was going back to the beginning of being a CEO, piece of advice you'd give yourself as you're growing your business. I, I think probably get an eight sleep.
- [52:14]
Michael
I think that's great. Look, I think you could never, you know, you just kind of like when it's good, you know, it's, it's good to be a little bit more paranoid and when it's bad, it's not as it's not the end of the world. Like, I mean, I think, I think there's like a level headedness of, yeah, you got to celebrate the wins and you gotta, you know, you gotta be alert when, when you're feeling pain. But like that, no CEO I know doesn't go through the roller coaster. It's just a role, it is a absolute roller coaster. You're gonna feel like you might go out of business a number of times in that roller coaster. Don't.
- [52:53]
Nick Sharma
Are you really CEOing?
- [52:55]
Michael
Yeah, exactly. You know, and, and then, you know, and then, you know, you're gonna think that you're well on your way to building the next Google at some point and you know, maybe you are but like, you know, it's always hard work and find a way to take joy in the, in the work right here. When you talked about the decision of launching the branded Reddit card, you mentioned that there wasn't enough value to the customer and they just stayed on the list. But you didn't talk to this. Explain how you and your leadership team evaluate opportunities and maybe give an example of something that is rising.
- [53:34]
Nick Sharma
Amazing. So with you and your leadership team, basically how do you evaluate opportunities to bring to market?
- [53:43]
Michael
Rigorous debate. You know, my co founder and co CEO is my brother. So I, you know, to any, to any idea that either of us have, we know there's going to be a, a strong forceful reaction to it. You know, it, there's no, there's no single metric, you know, because I think a lot of the best bets are more strategic than they are. It's like entrepreneurship. All the, all the obvious ideas are probably the domain of like a big company. And so you have to have a little bit of an, you know, like an angle to why you're gonna do things. And so, you know, the credit card example is an interesting one because I'm, you know, what I would say is I'm skeptical of, I'm skeptical of the pitch from, let's say some of the branded credit card providers, which is like this is going to be so easy and turnkey because if it is easier and turnkey, I worry that it's just totally commoditized and uninteresting. And so then I'm like, okay, well this could be a fair amount of work. Anything that we do that's gonna be great is gonna be a fair amount of work. And then we just have to make sure we have the resources to see it through and make it differentiated and make it, you know, really sing. And then those debates with your brother, it's not, by the way, it's not just debates with my brother. We have the most incredible leadership team that we get together for a few hours every week to really wrestle with strategy and, and then we have, you know, off sites and strategic planning processes that we've, that we've been adherence to. And you know, we're big fans of being in the office. I'm not. I think you could do it with on sites and off sites if you're a more remote team as well. But, but I think nothing beats spending time together with, with leadership in small groups to really think about, you know, all the angles. I mean, I don't know if the format's more complicated than like one. We have like a regular weekly strategic, you know, leadership meeting every week. We're all committed to it. And then at least twice a year we're doing a much more intensive, multi day kind of off site.
- [56:07]
Nick Sharma
All right, two more questions right here.
- [56:09]
Michael
Absolutely.
- [56:09]
Nick Sharma
Green. Oh, yes.
- [56:10]
Michael
Hey, I'm. Here's a nonprofit.
- [56:12]
Nick Sharma
Amazing.
- [56:13]
Michael
And I would. Awesome. You know, I am learning so much.
- [56:15]
Nick Sharma
I would like to know if you've.
- [56:17]
Michael
Ever used like a roundup opportunity for a non profit or you know, done on like purchase this and your support, any of those kinds of initiatives.
- [56:30]
Nick Sharma
Have you ever used.
- [56:31]
Michael
So, so, so it's a good question. We, the short answer is yes, we've raised, I would say, don't quote me on the number, but at least half a million dollars for nonprofits throughout, you know, the tenure of our business from our community. And you know, we, what we used to do was have a featured nonprofit every single season and then put that out to the community and let them add on a donation to their box. And what we're doing now is reformulating that into somewhat more of a thematic focus because it was hard frankly to get those every quarter to change it up and the amount of lift and effort and it felt almost inauthentic because of the amount of time and attention we could do to just kind of like plug Something in. So what we're doing now is we're reformulating that in a specific kind of vertical that we haven't announced yet that we're really, we want to go deep on. And then, you know, when something's right in our backyard, we, the team just rallies. Right. And that's just authentic. And I think you have to be authentic when you're doing things like this. So the fires in LA was, was literally right in our backyard. And we thought we could be helpful because we had a lot of products and people lost their homes and a lot of their stuff. And so we set up, you know, a kind of build a box program for people who lost their homes or were affected by the fires. And we had, you know, many, many hundreds of people come through. And so we've done things like that as well.
- [58:06]
Nick Sharma
All right, last question right here. Can you share a little bit behind.
- [58:10]
Michael
The scenes of like the decision making process that goes into how you make sure the products you offer your customers or the best value without making it feel like a discounted environment? Yeah, so, so the question is, like, what is the decision making process for how we choose products and how do we make sure that they're the best value? It's, you know, there's both art and science there. We have a substantial, like, you know, one of our largest teams is our merchandising team and, and they pair with our consumer Insights team and they're constantly, you know, one is, have a lot of options, right. And then part of what makes a good value is I would say, like the willingness of the brand to work with us. Right. Like, we're not, we're, I'll just, we're not buying it wholesale. We can't deliver the value we want to buy deliver, you know, buying it wholesale. And we even have some brands who are doing sponsored programs with us, right. So including some brands who are willing to provide free product or, you know, essentially be in a sponsored placement on our site. And so it's somewhere at the intersection of like creating a lot of options by being out there. You know, we're talking to brands, talking to decision makers at the brands, the consumer insights we receive looking at both like prospective surveying and retrospective sell through and rating some reviews that we now have, you know, millions of reviews on products and data points, et cetera, and then the business terms, frankly. Right. Like, you know, what can be negotiated with the brand. So somewhere at the intersection of those three ideas and a, you know, substantial merchandising effort to sift through that and they have their own, you know, set of debates and meetings and, you know, and at the top of that is my co founder, Katie, who's our editor in chief. That's, that's kind of how it works. Yeah, I mean, we're just, we're not a, we're not a traditional retail channel, you know, where we're this kind of discovery platform and there's, there's all sorts of ways that gives a tremendous amount of value to the brands. You know, another way we, we, for most brands we work with, we describe it as essentially like free marketing. Right. Like instead, instead of using your. Instead of just paying, you know, meta and have used product. Right. And we'll help you get it in the hands of new consumers.
- [60:50]
Nick Sharma
Amazing. Well, thank you for being with us, Michael.
- [60:52]
Michael
Thank you, Nick.
- [60:53]
Nick Sharma
Hopefully everybody can say a prayer tonight for the Knicks and have a great rest of your sub summit. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next time to cut through the noise on cpg, retail and E commerce. If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend? And be sure to subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss the next one.