How to Sleep Through the Night: The Women’s Guide to Overcoming Insomnia

Summary

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Lipstick on the Rim

Episode: How to Sleep Through the Night—The Women’s Guide to Overcoming Insomnia

Date: October 14, 2025
Host: Molly Sims & Emese Gormley
Guest: Dr. Shelby Harris (Clinical Psychologist & Sleep Specialist)

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Main Theme

This episode embarks on a practical, relatable exploration of women’s sleep issues, focusing especially on insomnia through the lens of hormonal, psychological, social, and lifestyle influences—from motherhood to menopause. The hosts, Molly Sims and Emese Gormley, welcome Dr. Shelby Harris to share evidence-based insights, bust myths, and offer actionable strategies that go beyond quick fixes and sleeping pills. Real talk, humor, and plenty of “TMI” moments define this girlfriend-style deep dive.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Personal Sleep Struggles—Setting the Stage

• Molly and Emese open up about their own changing sleep patterns as busy moms, describing the transition from being able to sleep “anywhere, anytime” to experiencing middle-of-the-night wake-ups.
• [04:21] Emese: "It’s the story of my life."
• Both hosts connect their exhaustion to school schedules, stress, and hormonal shifts.

Why Women Struggle More with Sleep (Especially After 30)

• Dr. Shelby lays out the “perfect storm” that impacts women’s sleep:
  • Hormonal changes: Fluctuations in estrogen/progesterone (peri- and menopause).
  • Increased anxiety/depression rates.
  • Social stressors: Sandwich generation stress, work/life overload.
• [06:05] Dr. Harris: “It’s that perfect storm of the social stress, the psychological stress, and then the biology.”

Is It Insomnia? Or Just a Few Bad Nights?

• Normal to have poor sleep occasionally.
• Chronic insomnia = 3+ nights/week of significant trouble (falling, staying asleep, or waking early) for 3+ months.

How Much Sleep is Really Needed?

• Myth-busting: The “8 hours” guideline is an average; the real range: 6–9 hours (adults).
  • Some need less/more; listen to your own body.
• [09:36] Dr. Harris: “If someone tells you it has to be exactly eight, they’re wrong.”

The Sleep-Before-Midnight Myth

• Busted: Sleep quality is NOT tied to being asleep before midnight; it’s about consistency and your natural rhythm.
• [10:35] Dr. Harris: "It’s a total myth... There’s no ideal time—it’s what works for your life."

Sleep Trackers & Tech

• Sleep rings/devices can help you notice patterns, but typically offer limited value for sleep stages; focus on how you feel, not just the data.
• [11:36] Dr. Harris: "Most people don’t need a ring to tell them they’re not sleeping well."

Debunking Other Sleep Myths

• “You need less sleep as you age.” Not true in any major way.
• Women need only about 10 minutes more sleep than men, not hours.
• Poor sleep is not inevitable in menopause—don’t accept it as your fate.

Kids & Teens Sleep

• School-aged kids & teens need 9–9.5 hours, but puberty naturally shifts their clock later.
  • School start time policies matter.
• [17:44] Dr. Harris: “For most teenagers, it’s about 9.5 hours.”

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Evidence-Based Sleep Strategies

Non-Drug Interventions: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I)

• Short-term, solution-focused therapy: focuses on sleep hygiene (routine, environment), adjusting time in bed (limiting it to deepen sleep), and addressing thought patterns about sleep.
• [19:44] Dr. Harris: “Quality first, not quantity… it deepens someone’s sleep over time.”

Key Practical Tips:

1. Consistent Wake Time: Keep wake time the same 7 days a week (set an alarm if needed).
2. If Awake at Night: Don’t reach for your phone or clock. If you can’t settle after ~20–30 minutes and start feeling frustrated, get up and do something boring (e.g., reading, not screens), then return to bed when sleepy.
   • [23:15] Dr. Harris: “Effort is the enemy of sleep.”
3. Reduce Anxiety Around Sleep: Let go of “emotional attachment”; stressing makes sleep worse.

Supplements & Aids: What Helps, What Doesn’t?

• Magnesium (glycinate): Good for relaxation.
• Melatonin: Best for shifting sleep schedule/jet lag; use low doses (0.5–1 mg). Not effective for most insomnia.
• Sleep aids (pills/CBD): Use only as a last resort—risk of dependence, possible side effects.

Specific Tools:

• Sound machines/Weighted blankets: Use if helpful, but don’t get reliant on always having them.
• Screens before bed: Content matters more than the device itself, but minimize late-night doom-scrolling.
• Naps: OK for good sleepers if kept to 20 minutes/early afternoon; otherwise, can disrupt night sleep.

Hormonal Considerations

• HRT can help some women’s sleep in menopause, but not all. Ovulation can disrupt sleep for some due to hormonal swings—work with your gynecologist if it’s severe.
  • [31:03] Dr. Harris: “That is a super common phenomenon if it’s really very tied to that time.”

Travel & Kids: Jet Lag Hacks

• Use sleep-shifting apps (e.g., Timeshifter) for light exposure timing; only give melatonin to kids with a doctor's approval and only in very targeted circumstances.

Snoring/Partner Issues

• Snoring can be a sign of sleep apnea, especially for women in menopause. Persistent, disruptive snoring calls for a sleep study.
• [29:12] Dr. Harris: “So many cases…snoring is a sign of sleep apnea. It gets missed in women all the time.”

Rapid-Fire: Sleep Do’s & Don’ts

• Room temp: Cold is best, ideally “somewhere in the 60s.”
• Good pajamas, dark room, socks if you run cold.
• Magnesium lotion may help restless leg syndrome.
• Avoid caffeine, Diet Coke, alcohol, or work before bed.
• Keep phone out of reach or at least don’t check it if you wake up.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "Effort is the enemy of sleep."
  —Dr. Shelby Harris [23:15]

• "I started doing this before it became popular to even talk about sleep. I was a sleepwalker as a kid..."
  —Dr. Shelby Harris [04:59]

• "It's that perfect storm of the social stress, the psychological stress, and then the biology."
  —Dr. Shelby Harris [06:05]

• "If someone tells you it has to be exactly eight, they're wrong."
  —Dr. Shelby Harris [09:36]

• "There’s no ideal time—it’s what works for your life."
  —Dr. Shelby Harris [10:35]

• "Sleep before midnight is not magical."
  —Paraphrase, Dr. Harris myth-busting [10:35–11:04]

• "Try to let go of the emotional attachment. Once you let go of that, that's when sleep starts."
  —Dr. Shelby Harris [34:23]

• "Slow down. I was always rushing to get to the next stop—slow down."
  —Advice to her 10-year-old self, Dr. Shelby Harris [42:24]

• On sleep hygiene:
  "Good pajamas are key. Room should be cold. Socks can help."
  —Rapid-fire with Dr. Harris [34:39–34:56]

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

• 03:01–04:21: Personal stories: Molly and Emese’s sleep struggles
• 05:51–07:05: Why midlife women’s sleep gets worse
• 08:47–09:36: Defining insomnia vs. just bad nights
• 09:36–10:25: How much sleep do we really need (by age & myth-busting)
• 10:25–11:19: “Sleep before midnight” myth and circadian rhythms
• 11:32–12:07: Sleep tracking devices—helpful or hype?
• 15:50–16:50: Top sleep myths busted
• 17:44–18:49: Kids’/teens’ optimal sleep needs
• 19:44–20:47: CBT-I explained; focusing on depth, not hours
• 21:27–22:13: Menopausal sleep disruption—addressing middle-of-the-night issues
• 22:13–24:04: What to do when you’re up at 3 am (the “bed isn’t for problem-solving” method)
• 23:15: "Effort is the enemy of sleep," Dr. Harris
• 24:39–24:58: Napping: Good or bad?
• 25:02–25:17: Supplements: magnesium, melatonin—what’s evidence-based
• 26:12–27:38: Jet lag/Travel: apps, light exposure, melatonin for kids
• 28:47–29:44: Snoring & apnea—gender gap in diagnosis
• 29:44–30:23: Sleeping pills: pros, cons, alternatives
• 31:03–31:24: How ovulation can affect sleep
• 33:26–33:47: Supplements (magnesium, chroma, vivid dreams)
• 34:23: Anxiety making sleep worse
• 34:45–35:26: Ideal sleeping environment: cold, dark, comfortable
• 41:08–41:19: Favorite cocktail? "Aperol Spritz." (Dr. Harris)
• 42:24–42:30: Advice to her 10-year-old self

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Takeaways for Those Who Haven’t Listened

• Sleep problems in women are multi-factorial: hormonal, psychological, and social stress all play a role.
• Perfection is not the goal—a few rough nights are normal.
• Banish sleep myths: There’s no magical bedtime, and most “rules” are averages.
• The gold-standard therapy is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I), not medication.
• Use sleep supplements sparingly and be skeptical of anything touted as a miracle solution.
• Pay attention to your habits and attitudes around sleep—stress and effort make it worse.
• Sleep needs are individual—find a routine and approach that works for you (and your family).

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Connect with the Guest

• Dr. Shelby Harris on Instagram: @sleepdocshelby
• Book: The Women’s Guide to Overcoming Insomnia

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Transcript

[Molly Sims]

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[Emisha Gormley]

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[Molly Sims]

And by that, we mean everything that makes you look and feel beautiful.

[Emisha Gormley]

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[Molly Sims]

Definitely with a drink in hand.

You're listening to Lipstick on the Rim with Molly Sims. Well, we have officially made it through the first couple of weeks of school. I mean, can I just say I'm tired. I was tired before we even started, but I'm even more tired now.

[Emisha Gormley]

I think I'm in a permanent state. State of fatigue.

[Molly Sims]

Exactly. I am having. Okay, so I'm just going to tell you guys, I can sleep anywhere. I can sleep on a plane. I can sleep on the floor. I can sleep with 16 kids around me, I can sleep anywhere. But now the problem is I can't stay asleep. And I feel like that tired and that exhaustion. And I think a lot of moms, we have gotten this question asked. Can you have some, Someone on the podcast, a specialist, an expert, a doctor to talk about sleep?

[Emisha Gormley]

I mean, how often do I talk about sleep?

[Molly Sims]

She talks about sleep so much.

[Emisha Gormley]

Every day.

[Molly Sims]

Every day.

[Emisha Gormley]

So there's no one more excited to sit across from our next guest than me.

[Molly Sims]

Dr. Shelby Harris is a clinical psychologist, a sleep specialist, who's truly the woman to know when it comes to getting a good night's rest. We are going to be diving into the Women's Guide to Overcoming Insomnia. Like, I have the book right here. Okay.

[Emisha Gormley]

It's the story of my life.

[Molly Sims]

Dr. Harris, welcome to Lipstick on the Rim. You know, I used to tell my kids, and I still tell my kids, when you sleep, you grow.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yes.

[Molly Sims]

And I, I know I'm not. I. I've stopped growing, but my sleep is fucked. Like, I You know, you know, everybody knows I, I went through the fires. I don't think I slept for like three months. But even when I'm not stressed, I'm, I wake up, I wake up at like 3 o' clock in the morning.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep, just like that. Super common.

[Emisha Gormley]

It happens, I think to a lot of women. So I mean, we are pumped to ask you all of these questions.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I started doing this before it became popular to even talk about sleep. So I was a sleepwalker as a kid, so I would, I was a sleepwalker and it's hereditary a lot of times too. My kids would do it when they were younger. I tried leaving my parents house and I had no idea why I was doing it. The alarm got set off and it was fast.

[Molly Sims]

How old were you?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Between 6, 6 and 11. I always had to have the bottom bunker, sleepaway camp. So I just was interested in it then. And then when I went to, right before I went to grad school, I worked in research, medical research, and we were looking at alcoholism and addictions and I was in a rehab. And we found that when we were treating sleep problems and people who were in early recovery for alcohol problems, they didn't, when they were sleeping better, they weren't relapsing as much because people go back to alcohol cause they're not sleeping. So it was like 25 years ago. Why are we talking about it there but we're not talking about sleep for everyone.

[Molly Sims]

El, what's a big topic right now? I think especially because the whole menopause conversation has, has opened and people are being more honest. Why do women, especially in their 30s, 40s and 50s, seem to struggle more with sleep now than ever?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So it's a perfect storm of three different areas. So the first being, there's the hormonal stuff. So we see the big shift in progesterone and estrogen. There's a lot of drops that happen at random times, which is why our cycle might change at various times. So that's the first thing. And that can lead to hot flashes, night sweats.

[Molly Sims]

Check, check.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Busy brain in the middle of the night, check, check. Then we also see with women there's higher rates of anxiety and depression, so that doesn't help as well. And then the third area that doesn't get talked about enough, in my opinion, are the social stressors that happen. So women a lot of times are having kids later in life. So we're, a lot of us, myself included, are in the sandwich generation. So we're having kids at home that we're taking care of, taking care of aging parents. And then a lot of us are now working more than ever outside of the home. So when we get home from work, it doesn't just stop. We have the family stuff to think about all the other things. So it's that perfect storm of the social stress, the psychological stress, and then the biology.

[Molly Sims]

I mean, it makes sense.

[Emisha Gormley]

It makes sense. I mean, for me, I was very similar to Molly in that I could sleep anywhere. I would, I would never have an issue falling asleep.

[Molly Sims]

Like, people would be jealous of us.

[Emisha Gormley]

Yeah. And now it's really interesting because if I'm in a new environment, a new bed, I can't fall asleep. I. And it's, you know, for me, I became reliant on prescribed medication for a little bit because I was having such a hard time. I was sleeping in hospitals for a little bit and it was really tough. And I think that, I don't know if that's ultimately like having had a dependency on it during bad times.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah.

[Emisha Gormley]

Made me sleep less. I have no idea.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

It's hard to say. I mean, I think when you start having trouble with sleep to begin with, it starts. The common sense in us starts to come out more of like we need to protect it more. We need to do whatever we can to make sure that it's that perfect sleep environment or sleep aids. And then it just starts to be a little too precious.

[Molly Sims]

I start to get a little bit anxious. I mean, probably too much information, but like, if I don't, like, because I've always been such a sleeper, I could sleep. You know, if you told me to go to bed at midnight, I could sleep all the way through. If you told me to go to bed at 6am I could sleep. But I can't stay asleep and I start actually stressing and having such angst at three o' clock in the morning that it's, you know, I've done magnesium, I've done sleep tart cherry for muscle recovery. I've done, I mean, I've done melatonin. I've done the.

[Emisha Gormley]

I do magnesium now and that's helped me a lot.

[Molly Sims]

She's now on the glycine night.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Good.

[Emisha Gormley]

I do magnesium glyph.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

That's helpful.

[Molly Sims]

What is the difference between insomnia and just having a few bad nights of sleep?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I love this question because perfection is often what's talked about and everyone wants to optimize everything. It's normal to have a bad night here and there. I don't sleep perfect every single night. So three nights a week of poor sleep, 30 or more minutes or so. It doesn't have to be exactly 30 minutes three nights a week for at least a month where it's short term insomnia and at least three months to be chronic insomnia. So it suggests that you can have a bad night here and there that's totally normal or a bad week of poor sleep. So three nights a week where you're either trouble falling asleep, staying asleep, or you wake up earlier than you are.

[Molly Sims]

How much sleep? Okay, I'm 52 years old. Let's start with our 50s, 40s, 30s. And then we want to ask you.

[Emisha Gormley]

A little bit about the sleep. We always hear eight to 10 hours, which seems unrealistic.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

The 10 hours is a high end. It's for most people, about 70% of the population, it's about 67 to nine hours. That's where the eight comes from. It's literally just in the middle. It's the easiest to report. So if someone tells you it has to be exactly eight, they're wrong. Some people though need a little less than six to feel well rested and refreshed. And when they sleep more than that, it tends to. They have more awakenings or trouble falling.

[Molly Sims]

Yeah. Why is that?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Why do they need a little less?

[Molly Sims]

So like if they get more, they're actually more tired.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. I mean there's some people when you're doing that, you're actually diluting your sleep more. So they might have more awakenings in the middle of the night. It's like they're just not sleeping as consolidated or you fall asleep, you stay asleep throughout the night with a few quick awakenings. You wake up in the morning, but you're waking up longer than you would normally naturally wake up. So you're waking up in a deeper sleep.

[Emisha Gormley]

Now what about. I always used to hear this. Maybe it's an old wives tale. But the sleep before midnight is your most important sleep. Is that true?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

No, not at all. Drives me mad.

[Molly Sims]

But it is.

[Emisha Gormley]

I used to hear that all the time. It was like something. You would hear it.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

A lot of what I do on like Instagram is debunking these myths. There are. Everyone has different circadian patterns. Some people are more early birds, some people are more night owls, some people are more in between.

[Molly Sims]

And that's true.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Right.

[Molly Sims]

Like my husband can power through his reading, his scripts, his notes at night. I am a morning person.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep.

[Molly Sims]

It's just the way my brain works.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

It's a total myth because if I told someone it was a night owl start going to bed at 10pm every night so you get your best sleep. They're going to start having insomnia so it just makes it harder for them. So if you need to shift it, fine. But there's no like ideal time.

[Emisha Gormley]

Sleep is at this time.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

No, it's whatever you are consistent with that works in your life. So if you're consistent with the same, let's say one to nine sleep schedule, then you're fine. Just do that.

[Emisha Gormley]

Do you believe in those OURA rings or any of those devices that track your sleep?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

They're fine for people who don't make sleep a priority. So if you're someone who's burning the candle at both ends, you're drinking a lot of alcohol, they're good to let you know, okay, maybe you should make some changes. But most people don't need a ring like that or a watch to tell them that they're having poor sleep. And they're great for the timing of sleep, the amount of sleep you're getting, but the sleep staging. So the Deep sleep Light sleep REM is not always the most accurate.

[Molly Sims]

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[Emisha Gormley]

Some of those myths.

[Molly Sims]

What's three or four myths that you're like that is just not true.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So that one of the going to sleep by midnight is a huge one. The you need less sleep as you get older is another really big myth. No you don't. You get a little less maybe, but within the span of 24 hours you might nap a little bit more. But it's about the same amount of time the women. This is a big one. Recently, women need more sleep than men. No. And I've seen some people say like women need like an hour to two hours more than men. Now women might get 10 minutes more than men in general and they sleep deeper. But the issue is that women have more rates of insomnia. A lot of the women that I work with, they'll say they weren't sleeping well when they had little kids. And then once the kids start sleeping better, their sleep just continued to be because they've kind of trained themselves to keep an ear open or just be anxious about this.

[Molly Sims]

I am.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. It's so common. And I think another big myth is that you just kind of as you get older, poor sleep is just kind of what happens, especially in perimenopause and menopause. And that couldn't be further from the truth.

[Emisha Gormley]

What are your thoughts on on sleep for kids? Like we have our children's ages range from 6 to 13.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep.

[Emisha Gormley]

And we just said sleep is when you grow. Right. That's sort of one of those things that we talk about. I am curious as to what your thoughts are on what's a healthy amount of sleep for call it a 10, 12, 10 11, 1213 year old because they are going to bed later.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah.

[Emisha Gormley]

But they still, I mean they sleep in a little bit more but you do want them to. You know, my husband and I sometimes argue about that. Like are they getting enough sleep? Should they be sleeping? I'll throw it at you.

[Molly Sims]

Want to be tall, you got to sleep. You know, I'll throw that at you.

[Emisha Gormley]

Those are all the things that we say. And I'm just curious what like because you really are hyper focused on the hours of sleep for a kid when they're really little.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yes.

[Emisha Gormley]

But we start to not really understand what that right number is for slightly older kids.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

And there is still a range with this slightly older. I have a 9 year old and a 15 year old. So I'm totally in that pocket as well. Well, and I think anywhere from nine hours, believe it or not, most teenagers need about nine and a half hours of sleep at night. So if you're getting that because the schools start so hardly.

[Emisha Gormley]

That's the thing. Totally.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

It's so like in my town in, in New York we were able to change the school start times a little later. And I know that in California they're trying. Yeah, it should be 8:30 minimum.

[Emisha Gormley]

So what's your school start time?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

8:30.

[Emisha Gormley]

For high school as well.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Middle and high school is 8:30. The elementary school is 7:50. But all the parents in the town of the younger kids, I'm like, you'll thank us later, it'll be better. But that's a big part of the problem is that normally when they get to be preteens, they naturally shift later. So you can try to get them 9 to 10, even maybe a little more hours of sleep, but they can't force themselves to go to bed so so early the older they get, it's just biologically not possible. But yeah, if you can try and protect it as often as possible. And if they need to sleep in on a Saturday and a little bit on a Sunday, that's ok. Okay.

[Molly Sims]

It's just like this summer Gray went to bed a little bit later than normal. He went to bed around 10. But he, I mean he clocked till 10 the next day and he only did it for like three or four days. But his body just, I mean he needed it.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, he was out and an in. I also have with some of the in this age range because they're like, there's a lot of that too. Like I'm old enough, I should know. My sleep schedule is telling the growing. Right. But also kind of tailoring it to what their interests are. So if you have a kid who's really interested in sports. Right. You'll have Less risk of injury. You're actually going to be able to do more at whatever it is you're doing. And a musician, you'll learn the skills better. Try to tailor how sleep will help them more and you might get more buy in.

[Molly Sims]

You're not going to be tall.

[Emisha Gormley]

Brooks, back to us, back to us. We still have a lot of questions. What are some evidence based non medication treatments you use with your patients?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia is the first, first line treatment. That's what my book's all about. So what it is is it's a very short term therapy. So there you go. I see people between two to eight times. So what part of it is.

[Molly Sims]

Is that hypnosis? Is it?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

No, not even remotely. So what it is is there's that sleep hygiene piece that you were talking about. Like you know, I do, I try the tart cherry juice. It's a little bit of sleep hygiene, limiting screens, limiting alcohol, all that. But believe it or not, most people with insomnia have tried all that stuff and they still don't sleep well. That's like just the basics. If you're not, if you're drinking a two liter bottle of Diet Coke at night, you're not going to sleep well. So that's the basic. But then we also. Do we look at the amount of time someone's in bed? So I might change someone's sleep wake timing. That's a big one. So awakenings in the middle of the night. If someone's only getting, let's say six and a half hours of sleep at night, but they're in bed eight hours, I might actually have them go to bed later and get up at the same time every day. Which sounds bonkers, I know, but it deepens someone's sleep over time and we wanna work on quality first, not qu.

[Molly Sims]

Okay, quick question. Do you use an alarm?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yes. So you wanna get up at the same time every morning. So yes. Seven days a week you're gonna set an alarm clock. I still have the same alarm clock from high school next to my daughter.

[Emisha Gormley]

I fall asleep. For me, I don't need an alarm. I will like if I know I have like a flight or something, my body naturally wakes up at the same time almost every single day.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

That's great. But if we start having you go to bed later to try and combat some of those long awakenings that 3am awakening in the middle of the night and then you might start risking sleeping in a little bit, we want to cut it off. So that's Part of that treatment is to really have someone just make sure it's an extra like safety guardrail in a way.

[Molly Sims]

So if you're in perimenopause, what happens to your sleep once you go through menopause? Do you go back to sleeping or does it.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Some people do, some people don't. They might still have a lot of that awakening in the middle of the night. And that's when we might target what are they doing in the middle of the night? Are they on their phone, are they scrolling? And then we might actually add in some like worry based stuff because that's what I see a lot. And perimenopause that might continue into menopause is some of the worries in the middle of the night of I have to sleep. If I don't sleep, XYZ is gonna happen tomorrow. So we might start targeting a bit of their like busy brain, a bit in the middle of the night, but very focused. Simple treatment, not so simple to make someone stay up a lot later and spend less time in bed. But the things that we do in the middle of the night and the way they think about sleep and that anxiety, it's very effective for.

[Molly Sims]

Okay, so let's talk about it. You're up at 3 o' clock in the morning.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

What do you do?

[Molly Sims]

What do you do?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, so the first thing is don't grab your phone. That's what.

[Emisha Gormley]

Yeah, I don't, I don't grab my phone.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

That's why an alarm clock is better than like a phone for an alarm. Yeah, I know, it's not fun.

[Emisha Gormley]

I'll tap my phone to see what time it is, but I don't ever pick it up.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So that's the next piece. Don't look at the clock in the middle of the night. Because everyone wakes up 4 to 6 ish times a night when you finish a full sleep cycle. So what you do is after about an hour and a half ish, you have an awakening. And so when you start looking at the clock, you might just be naturally looking at the clock. When you have one of those natural awakenings and now you start, why do I always wake up at the exact same time every night? So you're training yourself to do that and then you get more angry when you look at the clock. At least some people do. Then the next thing is if you're up for a long time and you just can't sleep, get out of bed, go sit somewhere else. So I'll have someone like lying in bed trying to force yourself to get sleepy. Effort is the enemy of sleep. Sleep before you ever, when you guys were able to sleep anywhere, you probably didn't think about it. Right?

[Molly Sims]

You didn't put effort into think about it. I didn't put any effort into it.

[Emisha Gormley]

Yeah, it feels counterintuitive because to me, if I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't fall back asleep, getting up and walking to another part of my house would make me feel like I'm waking up.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, I totally get that. It's if you're up for a little while, we usually say 20, 30 ish minutes. Stay in bed, that's fine. But once your brain starts to get frustrated or you start thinking about everything, now you're associating the bed with wakefulness and the bed is really not for wakefulness. So I'd rather you get up and just do something as a placeholder. And it's weird, it might wake you up, but it's gonna quiet your brain down by just reading or doing something without a screen. Ideally than get in bed when you're actually sleepy again. And that's the stuff I'll have people do initially with then limiting time in bed. And it works really well for a lot of people.

[Molly Sims]

How much do screens actually run people's sleep?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So it can impact your sleep, but people are making it out to be like the enemy. What's the bigger enemy? In my opinion, the screen isn't great, but it's what are you doing on it?

[Molly Sims]

Right.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Are you just like all the apps, they're addictive and then like you just auto watching autoplay, everything. That's the problem.

[Molly Sims]

Are naps good or bad for sleep?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

They're good if you don't have routine sleep problems at night. 20 minute nap early in the day is fine, but if you have sleep problems at night, then you might want to take it out because it's going to steal it from the night.

[Molly Sims]

What's one of the worst things you can do before bed? Drink alcohol? No, but Diet coke.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Alcohol is not great for sleep. I'm not gonna lie. I think just doing work right before bed is probably not good.

[Emisha Gormley]

What supplements or at home treatments do you recommend? I mentioned I take magnesium.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. So magnesium glycinate is fine if you're someone. We tend to use magnesium for people who just have trouble relaxing before bed. Melatonin is the other really big one that we talk about all the time. Melatonin for the middle of the night stuff is not the most effective.

[Molly Sims]

We actually, I think that's so interesting because we always hear, take melatonin.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I know it's really what it is is it's sleep timer. So if you're someone who sleeps eight hours or however many hours and you're fine, but you want to start shifting it to a different direction, Jet lag, jet lag, shift work, all that stuff, that's when we actually use it. And we use it. If you go to the market, you'll easily see 10 milligrams of melatonin everywhere. That's way too much. There's no data on it. I use a half a milligram to one milligram with patients max. And it's hard to find that melatonin, but it's what I'm shifting.

[Molly Sims]

That's exactly what Jordan Geller. I just had my yearly with Jordan Geller. He's my endocrinologist and that's exactly what he said. One milligram, one to like a little bit amount, a tiny amount, not 10.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

And we use it when we're using using it to shift someone's sleep schedule. Sometimes we might give it to them 3, 4, 5 hours before they naturally will fall asleep because it's just shifting their sleep wake schedule.

[Molly Sims]

You go to Europe, you're with your family. When do you start taking the melatonin? Do you believe in something for the kids? What's your thoughts on that?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I mean, I don't love giving melatonin necessarily to kids, but if you run it by their pediatrician and the timing, depending on how big of a time difference there is, say the west coast versus the east coast, then you might consider it. But there's great. I mean, there's a few apps out there. I don't get paid by them, but Timeshifter is one really great app. And what it's. It was developed by legit sleep scientists. If you put in the two flights that you're taking, it will tell you when to take the melatonin a day. For kids, too, ideally, like for older kids. Possibly talk about it with the pediatrician, but. Yeah, possibly. But also the big thing that people never talk about is light exposure. So when you should be wearing sunglasses, when you could get brighter light because you don't necessarily want to land and just get the most bright light. That works.

[Molly Sims]

A couple of my friends and a few people I work with deal with massive migraines. And I know with my one friend, light just triggers.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep. So you have to be thoughtful about when you're going to use light and when you're going to use darkness, because that's actually the most important thing to set your circadian rhythm. So that aspect will tell you when you should be getting light, when you should be getting dark. Advancing your sleep schedule for kids, that's really helpful to advance them a little bit before they go. So that will give you like a whole program as in depth as you want to get.

[Molly Sims]

And also, when you're going to Europe, you gotta keep them up, you gotta keep them busy, you gotta. And then they're so tired at one point. That's what I've kind of learned for me as well, and it's really helped me. And also a really dark room.

Yep.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep.

[Emisha Gormley]

What are your thoughts on a sound machine?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

They're great. I love it.

[Emisha Gormley]

I love to sleep with a sound machine.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I love it. You just have to. The thing I caution to everybody about sound machines, weighted blankets, all that sort of stuff. That was my next question is like, all for it. If you find that you want it to help, if you find it helpful. But just be prepared that you're gonna then train yourself to need to carry the weighted blanket or the sound machine.

[Emisha Gormley]

The sound machine I have. For me, it's more. I like to drown out outside noise. So, like, if my neighbors are having a party or it just. To me, if my husband's watching TV still too loudly and I'm like, I just want to go to sleep. I love the sound machine for just drowning out noise.

[Molly Sims]

Also, he snores.

[Emisha Gormley]

Yeah, that's. So that was one of my things that I Screen grabbed on your. On your Instagram is the five most common questions that people ask. And the number one at the top is, how do I get my significant other to stop snoring? It's waking me up.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. I mean, if it's bad enough, I would always say, get a sleep study.

[Emisha Gormley]

I mean, I put ear. I will wear earplugs. I'll like, blast the sound machine next to my ear. But that's the only way.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, but like, even for. I mean, this is like, the thing I get asked daily is like, that person should probably still have, like, an evaluation for a sleep study. And if they.

[Molly Sims]

Yeah, if you're snoring that much, if you're snoring consistently, what does that mean?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So many cases. Not all the time, but many cases. Snoring is a sign of sleep apnea. So pause. It's basically like pauses in your airway. It's collapsing. So. And that happens five to 15 times an hour just to be mild. And so, yeah, I mean, yeah, it happens. It's very, very common in women, too, in perimenopause and menopause. So some of the awakenings at night, if you feel like your sleep's not restorative, if you take a sleep aid and you feel like a truck hit you the next day, you might have sleep apnea and not even realize it. And it gets missed in women all the time.

[Molly Sims]

How do you feel about sleeping pills?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I don't love them.

[Molly Sims]

Do you remember, like, 20 years ago? I remember I took Ambien and I made a full chocolate chip cookies. Made full dinner, like a full thing in the middle of the night. Never remembered it.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Sleepwalking. Yeah. So common. We don't love. We like cbt, that treatment that I was talking about as the first line treatment, because it has the fewest side effects. You're sleepy, and you have to do it for a little while to work. Sleep aids are okay after you've tried other things. Once someone starts on a sleep aid, it's rare that 30 years from now they just randomly can stop it. So we try not to go that route at the beginning.

[Emisha Gormley]

So we touched on this. But truly, perimenopause, menopause sleep issues are hormonally affected. Right. Like, that's sort of one of those things that you hear about. So if I were to go to my OB and say, hey, I need hrt.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep.

[Emisha Gormley]

Does that help your sleep, do you think?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

It does for some women, but the way that it gets talked about a lot now online is it's like the cure for everything. And it really. It doesn't treat everyone. So that's why, like, there are other treatments.

[Emisha Gormley]

I notice when I'm not to be. This is definitely tmi, but I know my body when I'm ovulating.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah.

[Emisha Gormley]

When I'm ovulating is when I have the most broken sleep.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep. That's so common.

[Emisha Gormley]

And it's. It really, it. I finally put two and two together because I was like, why am I sleeping perfectly? Like, I'm not waking up. I take my magnesium, I go to bed, I sleep like a baby. I wake up feeling refreshed. And then the week that I'm ovulating, I am like, what has happened?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yep. That is a super common phenomenon if it's really very tied to that time. That's a discussion to have with your gynecologist about any particular. Like, some people find that being on some sort of hormonal intervention can be useful. I mean, we then really try to dig deeper into figuring it Out. And some women actually get sleepier too, at that time. So if anybody is like, I can't keep my eyes open during that time, they should get that evaluation.

[Molly Sims]

It's one way to the other.

[Emisha Gormley]

It's during the day, I'm like, oh, I'm a little groggier. And then in the middle of the night, I'm like, yep, okay.

[Molly Sims]

Would you take on blue light glasses and your.

[Emisha Gormley]

No.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I mean, there are some people who like them, but I'm like, is that gonna then give you free range to, like, be on your phone all night?

[Emisha Gormley]

What's the relationship between sleep and Alzheimer's or dementia?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So we have newer research looking at certain stages of sleep, deeper sleep. It's like when you sleep at night, your brain's like a dishwasher and you're washing out plaques that are forming during the day, these protein plaques. So when you're sleeping enough at night, you're actually cleaning out your brain. So these things don't build up. So that's why we want to work on it. But I do stress to people. It's not like if you're not sleeping, you're not going to definitely get any sort of dementia. Because I see more people coming to my practice now because they're freaked out that if they're not sleeping, they're going to get this down the road and then they sleep less, even more.

[Molly Sims]

Is it true that REM sleep is when the brain cleans itself?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So it happens a little bit during then? REM sleep is very active sleep. That's when you dream. That's when the most emotion formation happens. And a little bit of memory too, as well there too.

[Molly Sims]

I.

[Emisha Gormley]

So when I started taking the magnesium, I take this, I started drinking something called common restore by chroma.

[Molly Sims]

It's by chroma.

[Emisha Gormley]

It's so good. It's so good. And it's either drink that magnesium or I take a magnesium glycinate. But I will say, the first few nights that I took the mag. The chroma, I had the most insane dreams. Yeah, it was wild. Why is that?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Some of these supplements, even medications can cause. Cause they're changing around a little bit of the sleep staging that you're getting. And also, if you hadn't had deeper sleep for a while, you are now getting that your brain was like craving REM sleep. So it's giving you more of that and you're having more vivid dreams. We see that a lot with melatonin. People have vivid dreams.

[Molly Sims]

I have vivid dreams on melatonin yes.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So that's when we might actually have them stop it. Because it doesn't usually just go away.

[Molly Sims]

Do you like have the best sleep? Me?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, some nights, yes. But I have a 9 year old and a 15 year old and perimenopause and once in a while it's not great, but then I know the things to do to get back on track.

[Molly Sims]

I know. I think that's what it is. Like I was feeling really a little bit desperate at the beginning of the year. January, February, March, April. I was really struggling and I was having to drive a lot and I was struggling. I think the more I stressed about it, the less sleep I got, the less sleep I got, the more anxious I got, the more anxious I got. I almost like got depressed about it.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, it's that, that effort, right. The more you worry about the sleep in a way of trying to get sleep, you're putting effort into it and that's what actually makes it. I tell people, like, try to let go of the attachment, the emotional attachment to it. And once you start letting go of that, that's when sleep starts.

[Molly Sims]

I do think a dark room. Good pajamas.

[Emisha Gormley]

Yeah, good pajamas are key. Good pajamas I like to sleep in. Oh, this is a question. Cold versus hot.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Cold for sure.

[Molly Sims]

For sure.

[Emisha Gormley]

I love a cold.

[Molly Sims]

But then someone who was, I think Mike was saying like, oh, but you wake up more stiff, your joints are more stiff.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I mean, he's not a doctor.

[Molly Sims]

He likes to dance, he likes to think he's dying.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I always like, I don't know, but you might hear sometimes 67 degrees. It's really just somewhere in the 60s because it's whatever's comfortable. I'm always frozen. Despite wearing a vest right now. I'm always frozen. I go to bed at night and it's cold. I wear socks, believe it or not. And socks can actually be really helpful for some people when it comes to sleeping. Oh, that's interesting. You're cooling your body off, your internal body temperature, you're cooling yourself off for your feet. And it actually helps throughout the night. So you want everything nice and cold and that way I can sleep so that my feet aren't freezing.

[Emisha Gormley]

What are your. So magnesium. There's two questions I have for you. One is I obviously take the magnesium. I've talked about it, but I had a friend of mine who somehow got me to buy this thing on Amazon and it's the magnesium spray for the soles of your feet. Do you believe in that?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I.

[Emisha Gormley]

Specifically for sleep.

[Molly Sims]

I don't know about that for sleep. But magnesium's great anyhow. You ever get it in your body?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, I mean, there's not really any research on that. I will say I use magnesium, like lotion for my legs because I have restless leg syndrome and leg movements at night because I'm a runner, and that's really common in women. So it does help with leg cramps at night.

[Molly Sims]

Other things for leg. I have leg cramps.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So leg cramps and restless leg, very common. But it's usually, it's like you want to make sure magnesium's helpful, but you also want to make sure you're hydrated, you're not using too much caffeine. And then if that's not enough, then we look at iron levels, too. For some people who have like.

[Molly Sims]

Like, oh, my iron levels are low.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I can sometimes do it too, especially if it's like, a restless feeling before bed.

[Emisha Gormley]

This week on lipstick on the rim, we sat down with the one and only Rachel Zo and wow, this episode is a ride. We talked about everything. Motherhood, divorce, finding herself again, joining Real Housewives literally overnight. And then she said this.

[Rachel Zoe]

Can I tell you a true story in Covid? In the darkness of COVID I had a cat eye every single day where nobody saw me. Not one soul. And when I had Covid, not even my ex husband saw me or my children. And you know what I did? I went into my bathroom. I did a black liquid liner, put on lashes, black liner in the water, waterline, a full lip, did my hair, and sat in my bed. And that is what I did. And I looked at myself and I said, you are not a well person. I said, are you fucking okay? You have 104 fever.

[Emisha Gormley]

You are like.

[Rachel Zoe]

You are like contagion right now.

[Emisha Gormley]

If you love fashion, beauty, or Bravo, this Rachel Zoe episode is a must. It's out now. What about gummies? Because there are a lot of cbd. I actually am guilty of taking one. I really like it. Okay, and what's it called?

[Molly Sims]

The Nano.

[Emisha Gormley]

It's the Nano Jellies, the Green Company.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

So it's just CBD.

[Emisha Gormley]

It's daily CBD support, THC never above 0.3%.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Tiny bit of THC in it.

[Molly Sims]

Tiny.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. I mean, I think CBD in of itself is. It's not really a sleep aid. I mean, none of these things are. But it helps. Kind of like magnesium helps to chill you out and relax you. So if you're someone who tends to be a little high stress, then sure. Many people come into my office have tried CBD and it doesn't do anything for them. The THC component can help some people sleep more, but they end up a lot of times feeling hungover. Exactly. And like are you going to start having to take like if they're taking higher levels of thc. Takes a few hours for some people for it to work. Like are you gonna start having to take something three hours before? And there's no standardization from one place to another with what's in it. So we try to stay away from that. More and more research is coming out showing like we don't love the thc.

[Molly Sims]

What about everything with like the mushrooms, like Moon juice has the aptigens like anything like that.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

There's no real research significant. I mean if it helps you, great, but it's not really any sort of evidence based.

[Molly Sims]

Okay, we have to do a little rapid fire.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Oh God.

[Molly Sims]

Are you a night owl or early bird?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Early bird. Hard for sure.

[Molly Sims]

Hold on. Sorry.

[Emisha Gormley]

What's on your bedside table?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Three different types of lip masks for just dried lips. And then my alarm clock from high school that I still use.

[Emisha Gormley]

Is it a loud alarm like that or.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah, but it's more on. I have it on like the radio station which is probably just fuzz when it comes in.

[Emisha Gormley]

Usually I have one from Hatch. Have you heard of this?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Oh, I know we have them in my house.

[Emisha Gormley]

I like the Hatch one is cause it wakes you up. And the first time it woke me up I was like, God, the birds are so pretty. And I was like, oh my God, it's not real birds.

[Molly Sims]

No, it's a good one. I Love it. My 9 year old daughter guided. I like it.

[Emisha Gormley]

It's a great one.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. My nine year old daughter wakes up with that and she has the pan flute playing in the background. I was like, this was not what it was like when I was 9.

[Emisha Gormley]

No, no.

[Molly Sims]

What's your personal wind down routine?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I started this during the pandemic. I stretched. So I'll do a lot of stretching and then I. Well I wash my face first, stretch. Then I get in bed and I read for 10, 20 minutes and then I just go to sleep.

[Molly Sims]

Reading helps me, makes me tired.

[Emisha Gormley]

Do you keep your phone on your nightstand?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

I keep it on the nightstand but I never ever look at it. So it's not really an issue for me. Biggest advice, Diet Coke.

[Emisha Gormley]

I told Molly my term for Diet Coke. My friend's term. It's a fridge cigar.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Oh my gosh.

[Emisha Gormley]

Sorry.

[Molly Sims]

That is so good though.

[Emisha Gormley]

I had to share it.

[Molly Sims]

Ken is laughing Rose is laughing.

[Emisha Gormley]

It's true. Are you a planner or do you.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Go with the flow planner?

[Molly Sims]

100% unpopular opinion.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

The blue light, everything blocking everything.

[Emisha Gormley]

Best piece of advice you received that.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

The days are slow but the years are fast.

[Molly Sims]

Yeah.

It's so true.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

It's so true. When I look at my kids.

[Molly Sims]

Oh, kills me. Early morning workout or evening exercise?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Generally. Early morning workout.

[Emisha Gormley]

What's your most used app on your phone?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Instagram.

[Molly Sims]

Coffee or tea? Text or FaceTime or call?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Text.

[Emisha Gormley]

Favorite cocktail?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Aperol Spritz.

[Molly Sims]

Right now we love an Aperol Spritz.

[Emisha Gormley]

We made a feel for one right now.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. Especially when it's 100 degrees outside. It's nice.

[Molly Sims]

I know.

What do you wish you had more time for?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

My kids. I spend a good amount of time with them, but I wish I had more time.

[Molly Sims]

You're amazing.

[Emisha Gormley]

You're so. And this is so helpful.

[Molly Sims]

This is so helpful. I can't even tell you because a lot of what we see on the Internet, it just gets boggled down. It gets, is it true? Is it not true? And you know, you end up just trying to do anything and everything that you possibly can. But I think also what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another person. I think that's where we have to. To really be careful and walk the line and be mindful because you know, again, taking a sleeping pill every single day, I mean, that, that can get tricky in five years. That can get tricky in two years.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah.

[Molly Sims]

Right?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Yeah. I always think about it with people who are in like perimenopause, who are like, oh, I'll start something now. I'm like, that's okay. But what about in 10 years, 15 years when we have a bigger issue with memory and falls? Like that's where you have to start thinking about the longer term term.

[Molly Sims]

We always ask every guest before they go, if you could give advice to your 10 year old self, what would it be?

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Slow down. Yeah, I was always rushing to get to the next stop. Slow down.

[Molly Sims]

You're amazing.

[Emisha Gormley]

You're so good.

[Molly Sims]

Okay, everyone, make sure to follow Dr. Shelby Harris on Instagram. It's called LeapDochelby Sleep Doc D O C Shelby. And pick up a copy of her book, the Women's Guide to Overcoming Insomnia. It's all there. Very simple. It's not thick. You can get through it. You're the best.

[Emisha Gormley]

Us.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Thank you.

[Molly Sims]

And we are going to sleep.

[Emisha Gormley]

Sleep. Get sleep.

[Molly Sims]

Sleep.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Thank you. We say it for kids, but we.

[Emisha Gormley]

Forget about it for adults.

[Dr. Shelby Harris]

Exactly.

[Molly Sims]

I agree. Don't forget to rate us. Review us. Follow us on Instagram TikTok Ipsic on the Rim. That's a wrap. You're the best.

[Emisha Gormley]

Thank you so much. I can't wait to go to sleep now.

[Molly Sims]

I know I'm kind of sleepy. Thanks for listening to Lipstick on the Rim with Molly Sims and my Ride or Die Emisha Gormley. We are so excited to bring you you guys along on this journey with us. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Lipstick on the Rim and at Molly B. Sims. Or you go to my blog where you can dive just a little bit deeper into my favorite products, trends and [e-mail] and don't forget to check out our video episodes on my YouTube channel. Molly Sims. This podcast is production with Sony Music. I wanted to give a special thanks to my team, Rosie Cummings, Ken Orion, Sophine Kevorkin and everyone at Sony Music. Like, don't forget to listen and follow wherever you get your podcast so you never miss out on the fun.