A (2:39)

your beauty questions with a drink in hand.

B (2:41)

Definitely with a drink in hand.

A (2:44)

You're listening to Lipstick on the Rim with Molly Sims. Today's guest wrote a book that I genuinely could not put down and my co host Emisha will agree that we could not stop texting people about it. It's funny, it's devastating, it's honest in a way that very few people are willing to be, especially in public. There is this pressure in midlife to have it all figured out like you're supposed to have arrived somewhere by now. The marriage, the career, identity locked in, sorted, done. And what happens when it isn't? What happens when everything you build your life around suddenly one day just cracks open? Today we are going to be talking about letting go of what no longer fits, shedding the faith and roles that shaped you and entering the second half of life. Wide Awake. Today's guest has a very good answer to that question. She is a five time New York Times bestsel, host of for the Love podcast, which if you haven't listened to press subscribe right now. Her brand new memoir is called Awake. And this is exactly what women need right now. Jen Hatmaker, welcome to Lipstick on the Rim. We could not be.

B (4:12)

We're so excited.

A (4:13)

We are so excited. I got the opportunity to meet Jen at the. Hello sunshine. Reese does this summit every year and you know, Jen got to speak. You're just so incredible and I have followed you ever since I walked away from that summit. And I just can't tell you how, wow, what you have done and how you have pivoted and how your story is so important for everyone who is listening now before Awake because you have four, five other ones that are bestsellers. It's an incredible, it's incredible what you've done.

B (4:51)

I love that you call it a coming of middle age story that is like so powerful I think to most of our listeners to hear that.

C (5:02)

Okay, well, first of all, that is a very nice introduction. Thank you to both of you. That is so sweet. Your words mean a lot to me. I really appreciate that kindness and yeah, like I'm 51 and so it's so interesting to sort of arc through some of the traditional coming of age themes. But make it old lady. Like locate it in perimenopause. And then just some of it is real, repeatable. Just the reinvention, the sort of the crashing out over a narrative you started with that didn't hold water and then having to sort of reemerge, merge into a new season. It's just very coming of age. Except that, like, my knees hurt, you know? And so. Thank you so much for having me on here.

B (6:01)

What was the moment that you were like, I. I have to get these words out?

C (6:05)

It's a good question. I would assume that most normals would not go ahead and just write the worst experience of their life in all of its, like, raging humiliation and shock. And it's so messy. It's such a messy story. And then just give it to people to read. I understand that. That is bizarre. The best answer I can come up with is that I have always made sense not just of my life, but of the world through writing. It's. I don't know how else to get there. I do not know how else to get there. There's a quot a just an amazing writer who's passed at this point. It's Henry Nouwen. And he said, I do not yet know what I carry in my heart, but I trust it will emerge as I write. And that true for me. So I just knew that writing for me was never gonna be something so, like, tacky and low brow, like some sort of tell all. That's not what Awake is. You've read it. You know that it isn't. Yeah, but I did know that it was gonna be a processing tool for me to process the story, to work through my own grief and sense of loss and rebuilding.

A (7:29)

Can you take us back? Because what was it like to be such a public figure inside a faith community? You're kind of perfect in your community. You're married 26 years, you're together, you have children. Your community is helping people. And then it all blows up. I'm going to read something from the book just to kind of. Because speaking of writing beautifully, at 2:30am on July 11, 2020, Jen woke up to her husband of 26 years whispering, I just can't quit you into his phone to another woman from their bed. Holy shit.

C (8:18)

Holy shit. That's what they call a hook. That's the first sentence

B (8:24)

and you get hooked right after that. I mean, I can't believe.

A (8:28)

I mean, that is a hook, girl. That is a hook. And this is why every person needs to read this.

B (8:33)

I love that you went Straight to a divorce lawyer.

C (8:36)

Yeah. I couldn't even make sense of that decision at the time. We had been in marriage counseling. We'd been in marriage counseling before I found out, because obviously we were straining at the seams. Our marriage was hurting, and I didn't know why. I couldn't locate the source. I just knew everything felt wrong, was wrong. I had all these red flags, and I didn't have enough of the story to be able to make sense of it. Of course, I didn't have the facts. But when that sort of, like, crucible moment came in the middle of the night and just shed a lot of light on the red flags, and then I spent the rest of that night in a deep dive of very quick discovery. It's so my instinct, something like my body, my gut just said, this is it. This is it. This is not repairable. This doesn't have a path back. This is broken beyond repair, and you deserve better than this. I just. I knew all of that. So instantly.

A (9:51)

Was it a little bit. And, dare I say, a gift to have clarity? Because the red flags, the gaslighting, the not knowing, okay, we're not in a good spot. But, you know, you're my husband of 26 years. We have a family together. We're part of a community. We are. We are together. But yet, why does it feel so bad?

C (10:16)

Gosh, you couldn't say it better than that. There is something so disorienting about knowing deeply in your bones that everything is wrong but being told on a daily basis, number one, everything is fine. And also, weirdly, number two, if anything is wrong, it's your fault, it's my fault. It's located with me. And it's just. It's crazy. Making. It's also, to your earlier point, it's humiliating. It's embarrassing. Like, I had written, at least in part, among other things, about marriage and family for, like, 15, 20 years, and. And we were leaders in our community, and. And to have our marriage go so catastrophically wrong, to end up with a spouse, with a second life after coaching women for so long on autonomy and independence and wisdom and how to read your own room and how to be in the driver's seat of your own life, and then for me to capsize like that was just. It was so humiliating and shocking.

A (11:34)

You're the captain of the ship. You've been leading, that you've. You. You know, and now you're the passenger, and now you're like, wait a second, maybe. You know, I think it's very hard to be that person who's like, be independent. You can do this. Like you said, autonomy. Like you. You know, to be so strong, to be this woman, but also to be this woman. Woman who is married, who is who. That is part of your identity, right? Like, I mean, I knew of you and your husband totally and totally. A lot of women stay in situations way longer than they should. Emisha is guilty of it. I am more than guilty of it. And a lot of them are listening right now. What do you want them to hear?

C (12:26)

Oh, man. You know, people have asked me since the divorce, like, do you think had you not found out like that, like, in a blaze of glory, would you have stayed? Because we were broken. We were broken before I knew. And I had the red flags and my instincts were sounding the alarm bells and things were sliding off the rails. I was deeply unhappy and felt unloved in my marriage because I was. And girls, I hate so much having to face that question because I feel like I might have stayed. I do. I hate to admit it, but I

B (13:12)

think that's why it happened the way it did. I firmly believe. I am such a believer in nothing is a coincidence. Everything happens for a reason. It's such a cliche, but you found out the way that you did. For that reason.

C (13:28)

It did hand me, I guess, the exact type of permission slip that I needed personally to build a more beautiful second half of my life. And I don't know if I would have reached internally and given it to myself. I'm not sure.

A (13:51)

You write about being conditioned from the very beginning to distrust your own instincts. And how have you had to unlearn that?

C (14:01)

Oh, my God, I am going to be working on this for the rest of my life. You guys, I'm so serious. It's like I've gotten halfway there. So through, like, I guess, 40 zillion hours of therapy, I have learned a lot more about my body, about the messages my body sends me, about my intuition, my inner wisdom, my gut, that that is a trustworthy voice. Of course, I was always taught, growing up, through several various filters, that my internal wisdom was unreliable, that I was an unreliable narrator in my own story. And so whatever it was my body was sending signals about, I was told to distru that could not be counted on. That was probably selfish. It was probably emotional because I was a girl. It was probably not grounded in facts. It was just hysterical or whatever. And then I had this additional sort of layer of religion on top of it, which also told me, in addition to all that, that My body was just inherently bad, that I am just inherently bad. There's nothing good in me. And so if I've got some sort of instinct just by virtue of the messenger, I should distrust it.

A (15:21)

Why do you think that is?

C (15:23)

That's a great question.

A (15:25)

Because what is it like to be like a public figure inside a faith community? Because it is different, right? You are on this, like, you know,

B (15:36)

well, you can't make mistakes, right? You're. It's like you, you, you can't like. I think that's.

C (15:41)

No, no.

B (15:42)

That's the part where I can't imagine having to merge those two worlds and be human. Because that's what you are.

C (15:52)

That's right. It tends to be a you're one and done scenario, which is so crippling. Because what that means is that anyone who finds themselves in that subculture is going to have to hide. They're going to have to pretend they're all human. Everybody is struggling, everybody's failing, everybody's making mistakes. Of course that's the cost of being a human. But nope, you're not allowed to. And so there's a lot of pretending. And so inside of that, of course is neatly hidden a lot of abuse. That's a place where secrets live. And so any place that punishes truth telling, pain, failure is a place where dysfunction and depression and abuse is gonna thrive. And that's just my particular limb of that tree. I think anyone who grew up in sort of a high control religious environment that has a lot of iterations is gonna go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that feeling.

B (17:03)

You stepped away from parts of that faith publicly and it cost you a lot. You lost followers, speaking gigs, your community. What did that feel like for you in real time? Because that was your identity.

C (17:15)

Yeah, that's been a longer story. The awake is kind of, I always say it's sort of a small story nestled in a bigger story. The small story is the story of my divorce. But it's nestled inside these cultural narratives and these larger themes in which lots of women can relate. I mean, divorce may or may not be a part of your story, but evolution is purity. Culture is like body shame, misogyny. Like pick a thing, throw a rock at it, and you're going to hit one of the themes. And so for sure, my, like spiritual evolution happened to be on a public stage all these years. So I didn't get the luxury of growing and changing like people do. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. I see that as a net positive. And most People do that over the course of their adult life, but you get to do it privately. I did that publicly, and so that came with a lot of blowback. And even preceding my divorce, that was a cost that I have had to pay in the public square over and over and over. And that community is just very interested in exacting a pound of flesh.

A (18:35)

Do you think they just wanted you to say, and suck it up?

C (18:40)

I had purged, I guess, the largest portion of my previous community before my divorce. I came up through, I guess, evangelical subculture. That is a thing. And that was where I sort of built my work and started my work when I was younger and growing. But I was at odds with that community in a lot of ways. And way before this, my life fell apart. And so 2016 was really my. My break from that community. And that was over, really. Just my public declaration of being affirming, of course, wholeheartedly for the LGBTQIA community. So that was the end for me. That was when my books got pulled off shelves and put out of print. And that's when my. My career collapsed. Crazy as I knew it. And so by the time I got to 2020 and lost my marriage at that point, I had built a different community, one that was so beautiful. Like, my community at this point is curious and interesting and smart. We're not. No one's reaching for pat, simple answers that don't hold water. No one is looking to be certain and right all the time. It's just a much more open hearted, generous community of people. So when I lost my marriage in front of them, which was terrifying, I will never get over the. The love and the care and the grace that the women in my community showed me. That is not to say outsiders, interlopers, people from my previous community didn't have plenty to say about it because they did, that no longer had a direct A to B connection to me. And so I just sort of built a separation from that narrative and just let them say what they were going to say.

A (20:47)

You got boundaries. You used the word renaissance instead of crisis. And I've been thinking about that ever since. What is the difference? And why. Why do you. Why does that distinction matter to you? Because renaissance and crisis, both powerful words.

C (21:05)

Yeah. To be sure and fair, that whole first year, I would have probably called it a crisis. I was in crisis mode. Everything felt like a crisis. I told my girlfriends that that first year. I said. And I meant this. I said, girls, I don't think I'm ever going to be happy again. And I meant It. I thought, my life is in tatters. I will just patch it together with, like, duct tape. I'm high enough functioning that I will just do what needs to be done, but I will probably limp my way through the second half of life, like, just in a lesser version of myself. I was just so crushed and so betrayed and scared and alone and unsure. But you do the work long enough, Which I did. I had no choice. There was nowhere to go but up. I was on the bottom of the ocean floor, and I began rebuilding a life of independence. Keep in mind, please, I got married when I was 19. Oh, my God. 19 years old, literal teenager. Just a baby. So I had never had an. I had never had an independent minute in my adult life. I'd never been to a movie by myself. I mean, I had never, ever experienced that level of autonomy. And so I had no muscle memory for it. So as I began to rebuild my life, because I had to, I was stunned. First of all, at my capacity, I'm like, well, shit, look what I can do. Second of all, at how good it feels to be in the driver's seat of your own life. At all of a sudden, I felt safe, because guess what? I'm trustworthy. No one. I'm not gonna lie to myself. I'm not gonna steal from myself. I'm not gonna. I'm. I am a safe person for me. And so I began to experience this entire new energy in my life of independence and safety. And, I mean, it just blew everything open. I. I began to realize. And it took me a while to be this honest, because I didn't want to admit it. It's. But it. I began to realize, oh, my God. To your point earlier, Molly, this was a gift. Like, the grossest gift I've ever gotten.

A (23:26)

The worst gift you'll ever get, but it's amazing.

C (23:29)

It's the worst, but also the best gift ever. Ever. Like, I hated it, and I didn't deserve it, and I hated the way it came to me. But on the other side of it, it's the best thing that ever happened to me.

A (23:41)

You used the word safety. You felt safe. Isn't that odd? But you were by yourself, but you felt safer by yourself, right?

C (23:52)

Doesn't that suck? Like, that's how bleak it was. And so just this sense of being trustworthy and knowing that I am responsible, that I can trust my instincts. I can. I can trust what I know. I can trust my work ethic. I can trust my friends. Wow. I. I had outsourced so much of My life to somebody else's behavior, to what he chose to what he wanted to his mood, to his dysfunction, to his unresolved trauma that, I mean, I was barely in the passenger seat. I was in the backseat. And so. What a shift. What a shift.

B (24:46)

I think there's something to be said about instinct, and I think it's something, you know, we've talked about repeatedly on this podcast. I think more women than not, we all have some kind of an internal instinct. And whether that's feeling someone's energy, like, I can tell that person's upset with me, we have it. And then we rationalize through what we want to believe. If we don't like what that instinct is telling us. And I think that there is something so powerful in acknowledging that, that instinct, you were right. You might not have wanted to hear it, but we're told we're crazy. Oh, you're nuts. It's all in your head. In a complete, you know, in every situation, socially, professionally, relationship wise, health wise. Like, I think that that is something so important to take away is that your instincts were actually spot on.

C (25:39)

It is scary because the thing is, our instinct, our intuition is so. So dialed in. It is. It can read the room with. With such precision, with such accuracy. That does not mean that the message our instinct is giving us is easy. In fact, it's usually hard. That requires change or a brutal conversation, or in some cases, an ending, a necessary ending. So the repercussions are not easy. But the message tends to be simple. And write and write like, I have just learned that my best work, probably in this season of my life, is to believe myself the first time, to

A (26:32)

trust yourself the first time.

C (26:34)

I gaslight my own self, like, out of understanding. Because we can do that, just to your point. Oh, we can. We can shine up somebody else's behavior in our own brain. We can minimize the damage. We can absorb their discomfort so they don't have to feel it, but we'll take it on. There's so many ways women can make this work.

B (26:54)

Well, instinct is by, by and large, you have an instinct when things are going to go wrong or don't feel good. You don't have an instinct that life, I'm about to win the lottery. Like, that's not the instinct we have, right? It's usually something foreboding that we don't want to face. I used to just tolerate my underwear, like, fine, it works. Moving on. I never thought much about it until I tried the Fits Everybody collection from skims. And now I genuinely cannot go back ever. The fabric is something I cannot explain until you feel it. It just melts onto your skin. I wore the Fits Everybody thong on a full travel day, which is honestly the ultimate stress test and I forgot I had it on. That has legitimately never happened to me before with a thong ever. And the Bralette. I am someone who has never loved bras, but this one just has a real support without feeling like I'm being held hostage. No digging, no adjusting, no ripping it off. The second I get home, it just feels like it was actually made for my body. I've been replacing everything piece by piece and I have zero regrets. If you've been curious and just haven't tried it yet, this is your sign shop, the Skims Fits everybody collection@skims.com lipstick. After you place your order, select podcast in the survey and choose our show with a dropdown menu. You will not regret it. Okay, I have to tell you about something because you know we're obsessed with everything that makes us look and feel beautiful, right? So hear me out. Who says your furniture can't do that? Too Cozy furniture is designed to make your home comfortable, modern and practical. But what I love is that it's completely customized by you. Life isn't one size fits all, and your home shouldn't be either. We're talking sofas, shelves, rugs, tables, dining sets. Everything modular. Everything designed to fit your space, your taste in your life. Smart design, adaptable style and comfort that changes with you. Because at Cozy, we believe that choice shouldn't be a luxury. Now Cozy believes that you should have your home your way. Their modular furniture has removable and washable fabric covers so you can switch colors and layouts with the same piece. Their free design consultants make sure you get the most out of your space. It's super easy to order, easy to ship, and easy to put together. It's also easy to maintain. Your home should relieve your headaches, not give you nuance. Cozy is practical by design and personalized by you because life at home is full of tears, laughter, chaos, messy nights, and quiet ones too. Hidden storage, washable fabrics, modular pieces that shift when you need space. Your home is a reflection of you. Unique, stylish, ever changing, and you deserve furniture that celebrates that. Cozy makes furnishing your home easy. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit C o z e y.com that's c o z E Y the home of possibilities made easy. I don't know about you, but every single afternoon right around 3 o', clock, I hit a wall and my brain immediately goes to I need something, something a little indulgent, a little satisfying. And I used to just grab whatever was around. But I've been trying to be a little more intentional about what I reach for because I want to treat myself but actually feel good after. That's why I am genuinely obsessed with Cachava's brand's new coffee flavor. The first sip, I could not believe how smooth it was. It actually tastes like a real coffee treat. And knowing that it's made with premium decaffeinated Brazilian beans, that makes it so much better. It satisfies the craving and supports my whole body nutrition at the same time. Two scoops gives you 25 grams of plant based protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens adaptogens and so much more. It's been a game changer for my energy. I feel supported all day without the crash. No artificial flavors, no sweeteners, no fillers, just clean whole body nutrition that actually tastes delicious. And Cachava has a Levit guarantee so you can try it completely risk free. Treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition your body craves. Go to kachava.com and use code lipstick for 15% off your first order. That's Cachava K A C-H-A-V A.com code lipstick.

A (30:42)

A lot of our friends are getting a divorce and some want it, some don't want it. But there's a pretty big through line that I think your book is so important that we talk about and I love that you wrote it because a lot of our friends are scared. They are scared. They are scared of the unknown. They are scared what's going to happen. They can't go forward, they can't go backward. Which as we all know, neutral is the worst place to be, right? Because there's. You've got no momentum going anyway. You're paralyzed. And I just speak to women. And this is why you have to read this book awake. Because it is fucking scary and it's awful and it's change. But with that there is that, like you said, that gift that, that safety, that it's a new safety, it's a new kind of coming into the world and you know, It is lonely. A lot of, you know, they've had this connection, this person. They've made excuses for a very long time for them. You were just talking about like oh well, he's just, you know. And again we can talk ourselves into anything. But a lot of our friends, they're scared to go, they're scared to fucking

C (32:18)

stay I just want to, like, pull all those women, like, onto my lap and, like, pet their hair and, like, scratch their back. I know that feeling. And it's. It's reasonable, by the way. So what I don't want to tell any woman who feels that way is, oh, you're being crazy. You know, this is an outrageous response to your scenario. It isn't outrageous. It is scary. And you are staring down, like, this dark tunnel where you cannot see the end of it. You don't know. A lot of it is unknown because you haven't gone there yet. What I can say is this. When I was at the front of that tunnel, looking down just the longest black hole I could ever see. Absolutely. I didn't. Guys, I did not know how much money I made. I did not have. I didn't know what our bank accounts were. I didn't know what our passwords were. I didn't know what our mortgage was. I mean, talk about a shit show. I mean, I had to absolutely reconstruct my life from the first brick on the ground. And so it was a million things. It was, how am I going to do this alone? It was. I don't know about money. It was, we have five kids. It was, what about my friend group now? Because it's like your friend group gets divorced. Do you know what I mean? When one of them leaves, we'd have the same. There was so many layers, and it was so scary, and I was so overwhelmed. Hence, I'll never be happy again. This is what I can tell you. When that was me, when I needed somebody to pet my hair. So many women in my community, both in real life and online, which is such a beautiful space, too, started all saying something to me. The ones who had been there, they were like, jen, we've been through it. You need to listen to us. You are going to make it, Jen. You can do this, Jen. You can learn this, Jen. This isn't too hard for you, Jen. We promise you, you're going to feel differently one year from now. Now, all of that was just gibberish to me at the beginning of the tunnel. But so many of them said it. So many. And they were all holding up their little lanterns, like, down that long black hole, going, if you can see this light, like, just start walking toward it. And I just thought, God, they can't all be lying, you know, Cannot all be wrong. This, like, chorus of women telling me, you can do this. We've done it. Come on down. And so awake for me is a little bit of like, my lantern. Like, I made it down that road. So I'm holding up my little lantern saying, just come toward the light.

B (35:08)

Like, you got this.

C (35:09)

See this light.

A (35:09)

You got this.

C (35:10)

Come this direction. You can do more than you think. You are smarter than you think. You are more capable than you think. And weirdly, this might be a gift. I hate to say that to somebody who is in the middle of the deepest pain and, like, broken heart, but it is. I only say it because it's true. This might be a gift. Keep going.

A (35:33)

You talk about this concept in the book called Morning Gin and Night Gin, and I love this. The idea of doing small, nurturing things for your future self. Laying out a little bit of your coffee the night before, leaving yourself some little bit notes. It sounds almost too simple, but I think a lot of women listening have literally never thought about being that gentle with themselves. Will you speak to that for a little bit?

C (36:00)

Yeah. I was in therapy. I was with my counselor, and I was telling her all these wonderful ways that I was parenting my kids through their grief and loss. And she suggested that I was being codependent, which was mean, rude, that that was not my work, that was their work. And I was, like, really genuinely expecting, like, an award, of course, for my incredible mothering. But she was like, hey, knock, knock. Let's work on mothering yourself. How do we try that? Why don't you worry about you? And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, what. What might it look like to mother yourself? And I am so, like, type A God. I'm so, like, boring high achiever Leo. Like, I'm. I'm always like, what needs to get done. Give me the task list. Like, let me just punch out the requirements and the responsibilities. It's just the worst. And so I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean by nurture? Like, I couldn't even tap into it. Like. And she's like, okay, let's. Let's back up. I'm gonna talk to you like you're a kindergartener. She's like, what would a good mother do? And I'm like, oh, okay, let's see. What would a good mother do? I guess she would, like, tell me to, like, drink some water and quit Facebook stalking. She's like, now we're onto something. Like, let's tap into that energy. I'm like, oh, oh, I see what you're saying. So that is where morning gin and evening gin came from. I'm like, okay, what would a mom. What would a good mother tell me to do right now? Let's get down to the ground. Like, what are the brass tacks here of just the most low brow, simple ways to care for myself. So this is so stupid. Like, people are listening to the podcast, are like, great, we're really happy we tuned in for this, like, high level advice. But what night Jen does for morning Jen, it's very simple. Night Jen is exhausted. Day Jen wears us all out. But night gin is like, all right, gonna wash my face. I'm gonna put on all the lotions and all the potions. Half of them are yours, Molly. And I'm gonna put water by my bed and I'm going to set the coffee in the morning. Oh, I'm gonna clean the kitchen too. Night gym cleans the kitchen. So Nigen cleans kitchen, gets the coffee ready, sets the timer. That's all she can manage. And then morning Jen gets to wake up to that awesomeness. And so morning Jen gets to wake up. I make my bed every day. I know that seems stupid, but you guys, I never made my bed my life. I make my bed. I put on all the pillows, I open my blinds. Whoop, there's the sun. Whoop, look at my beautiful bed. The coffee's already going. Cause nightgen hand and I brush my teeth and I light my favorite candle and I turn on my favorite playlist. And I don't know what to say. Somehow the alchemy of those dumb things makes me feel soothed and mothered and cared for. When I walk in the more into my bedroom and my bed is made. I'm like, look at me. I'm an adult. I'm an adult who makes her bed. Maybe I can do something else. Maybe I can handle my bank accounts, you know, maybe I can figure out taxes. Maybe I can figure out how to refinance my house. Maybe I can figure out how to mow the grass.

A (39:18)

You can.

C (39:19)

All the things that have to get done. And I did. Yeah.

B (39:23)

There's comfort in routine, I think. I think there's comfort in doing and finding those things.

A (39:29)

Do you think your kids look at you differently now? Like, my mom's fucking got it. Yeah, she's a badass. Yeah, she's a badass.

C (39:39)

Yeah, I know. You guys, my kids are. I have five kids. They're 20 to 27. And so this has all happened in their lives at real pivotal moment, too. They were all teenagers and young adults. Our family dissolved as it was in 2000. So, you know, we're coming, we're six years in. So, you know, this is really arced with them. And so they had an observational vantage point which was a little bit different. Had I gotten divorced when they were like, say in first grade, where you shield them from so much, they're unable to perceive so many sort of adult changes. That's not the case when you have a house full of teenagers and 20 year olds. And so they're locked into the story from day one. There's no way around it. And so they've seen a lot. And I, I noticed early on when I had this impulse to lead the witness, I wanted to tell them what to think. I wanted to tell them what to do. I wanted to make sure they understood this, this, this and that. I wanted to control outcomes because I had a certain way that I wanted to still get to. That's of course, when my therapist said I was being codependent. Shocker. I realized kids are smart. Kids know how to read a situation. I don't have to tell them what's what. I don't have to say, hey, you guys, look at all I figured out. I don't have to say, hey, you guys, I stayed, you know, hey, you guys, I kept the family afloat. I don't have to say any of that. They're going to sort out their own truth and it rises to the top. And so I've been really proud of the example I've been able to set for them. And I'm so hopeful that this next generation is not going to run headlong into so many of the tar pits that our generation did.

A (41:36)

Well, you talk a little bit. You and you and Bill Burden have a little bit of something in common where you kind of left it up to your husband. Oh, he'll pay the bills. He'll figure it out. The taxes, the mortgage, the bank account, the cars. How would you suggest to a woman now getting married, starting her life in love, nothing bad is ever going to happen?

C (42:08)

Totally.

A (42:09)

What would you say to that girl?

C (42:12)

Yep. Oh, boy, she'd get an earful from me. Also, ditto to all the women older who are more in our age range, who are happily married and have been for years. And go. To be fair, in most marriages, there is some sort of division of labor that makes sense and is reasonable. And in a lot of cases, one partner tends to take maybe a little bit more of the front foot on financial management and that is okay. That was not our balance. Mine was. I completely abdicated. Totally. I handed over the reins to all area of our finances without A look over my shoulder. So that was my fault.

A (42:58)

That's not your fault. But you trusted him. Yeah, but you trusted him.

C (43:04)

Of course I did.

A (43:06)

Fully.

C (43:07)

Fully. So what I tell women now, no matter if you are the happiest married girl that has ever lived on planet Earth, you need full visibility and shared responsibility into your money. Every bit of it. You should have every password. You should have business meetings with your partner. You should know where your money is, where it's going, where it's coming in from. You should be a part of a budget together, that finances should be shared labor. Because guess what, you may never get divorced, but your partner might get hit by a car tomorrow. Your partner might get struck by disease. Disease and death are indiscriminate and it doesn't matter if your marriage is happy. And so it is possible to rebuild from zero. I've done it, but I do not recommend it. It is so overwhelming. It is so exhausting. It's like a full time job for a while. I'm just trying to sort it all out. And so some things can be shared as sort of a division of labor. Some things should shared and money is one of them. Even if one partner says, I'm going to sort of be the lead here. You, nobody should be completely in the dark. It's funny, when I talk about this to women, I do notice that a lot of women have it reversed because they say, oh my God, if I go down in flames tomorrow, my husband does not even know anything about anything. He doesn't know what, what bunny is coming or going. He knows nothing. And so either way, we don't want to leave our partners in a lurch who are not equipped to manage the family and manage the whatever. And we don't want to be ill equipped. So anyway, I'm. I beat this drum all the time.

A (44:54)

I. A few. A friend of mine said the other day, she's like, you know, he just puts things in front of me and I sign them. And she looked at me.

C (45:05)

I know.

A (45:06)

I paused for a second.

C (45:09)

Yeah.

A (45:09)

Do you think that's bad? She asked me. I said, no, but you need to know what you're signing. You need to know. You need to.

B (45:21)

I think it's crazy how far we've come as women and we're so afraid of these conversations. Like, it's like we're. We fought for everything to be equal. Yet when it comes to household finances, the majority of women I know, like, rely on their husbands to do what they need to do.

C (45:41)

And that's crazy.

B (45:43)

It is crazy. I know.

C (45:44)

Here's the good news. I have a 25 year old daughter, she's about to be 26. I have a 20 year old daughter. They're different. It would never occur to my girls to absolutely phone in their own financial well being to a partner like they have. They've grown up watching us and learning from both what we got right and what we got wrong. And they are empowered in a way that, that in the most generous sense we did not have access to. We really didn't. We were still like rolling down barriers and chipping at the ceiling. And so they're getting to sort of run where we had to sort of slog.

A (46:30)

Listen, I am teaching my kids, my daughter, you know, it's you. You got to know what you got to know. And girl, I know you're in love. I know this, I know that. Let me tell you a little story.

C (46:46)

That's right. That's right. They're gonna do better.

A (46:50)

They're gonna do better.

C (46:51)

They're gonna self protect better. They are going to stand in their own lives more than we were able to or knew how to or knew that we could. And they're just not taking shit off of anybody either. And so I just keep going, you guys hurry up and grow up so we can hand you the baton. We've messed everything up. Let's see if you can get out here and fix the world. Like, we're really counting on you. I'm sorry. Everything sucks. Good luck out there.

A (47:16)

Just really quick, just really quickly. Good luck to you.

C (47:20)

Good luck, good luck to you guys.

B (47:29)

As the days start getting longer and warmer, thank God. I always feel like I naturally want to eat a little lighter. But obviously I still want my comfort foods like I still want a sandwich, a wrap, pasta nights, all of it. But I actually want it to fit my macros and not leave me feeling blah afterwards. That's where Herobread has completely changed the game for me. First of all, the taste and the texture. I was super shocked the first time I tried it. It's soft, it's fluffy, it toasts beautifully. And honestly, it just tastes and feels like regular bread. You would never guess. It has 0 to 5 grams of net carbs per serving, 0 grams of sugar and 11 to 32 grams of fiber depending on what you're having. I've been using their sliced bread for quick spring BLTs and avocado toast, their tortillas for veggie packed lunch wraps and their bagels for super easy protein breakfast for my kids and it's not just bread. They also have buns, noodles, and some seriously good small batch drops like Hero noodles, which have 12 grams of protein and just 80 calories per serving. It makes getting your fiber goals in easier meals simpler. And honestly, it lets you enjoy the foods that you love without feeling like you're compromising anything. Herobred is offering 10 off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code LIPSTICK at checkout. That's LIPSTICKH E-R-O.CO I'm going to tell you about the only gift that any dad, honestly, maybe any man, wants to get this Father's Day Gold belly. They ship the most iconic fruits from the best restaurants across the country straight to your door for free. So when I was looking for something really special for my husband this year, I came across Coldbelly and I fell down a rabbit hole. There is so much on there. I ended up going with this insane award winning barbecue from Texas because my husband is a big meat guy. And I just knew the second that I saw it he would absolutely love it. He's not someone you can just grab a gift card for. He wants an experience, which I completely understand. And this felt like bringing legendary Texas barbecue straight to our backyard. I'll be honest, I had my doubts about ordering food online. Like, will it actually travel well, Will it taste the same? But the quality completely blew me away. It arrived perfectly packed. Everything was seamless. And watching his face when he opened it, that was the whole moment. It gave us something to do together as a family that day. And it turned Father's Day into an actual event. My kids also loved it. And whether it's a dish from a one of a kind restaurant or meals from world famous chefs like Jose Andreas, Peter Luger, or Guy Fieri, Goldbelly has you covered no matter where in the country your dad is. So if you're looking to make dad feel like an absolute legend this Father's Day or just want to impress your friends and family with an epic meal, the next time you host, go to goldbelly.com and get free shipping and 20% off your first order with promo code LIPSTICK. That's goldbelly.com code LIPSTICK for free shipping and 20% off your 1st order.

A (50:10)

Okay, I have to talk about Ginny Bird because I cannot stop wearing their jewelry. I've loved them forever for their fashion pieces, the clean metal, the minimalism, that they just launched a fine collection. And honestly, it has taken over my life. We're talking diamonds that actually feel cool and wearable. These are the pieces you put on and never take off. I'm wearing mine right now and I've had it on for three days straight. What Emisha and I love is that everything works together. You can stack, you can layer, you can throw in one piece and a basic outfit is suddenly a look. They're lightweight, they're comfortable, and they make the perfect gift. If you have no idea what to get someone Genny Bird, you will not miss. Visit jennybird.com that's J-E-N-N Y-BIRD B I R D.com use code LIPSTICK at checkout for 20 off your first order. That's J-E-N- N-Y-B I-R D.com code LIPSTICK. We do one thing we started doing on the show. It's called the beauty time capsule. And I love it because it kind of tells you everything about where someone was actually in their, in their life. I'm gonna take you back 10 years. I'm gonna bring you, and then I'm gonna bring you back to what you do. Now. Walk me through 20, 15, 16. What was it like getting ready? What was your routine and how is it different now?

C (51:28)

That is such a great question. Okay, well, this is embarrassing to admit, but like 10 years ago I was the laziest beauty like consumer. I. Everything felt like a burden to me. Of course I had the benefit of younger skin. So, you know, you can be a real lazy POS when you just have the like glory of youth. I'm always looking at my daughter who's like, she's perfect. And she's always telling me because now I'm so deep in the bag. I'm about to tell you all that I've onboarded in the last 10 years. But she's always like, I'm just gonna age gracefully. I'm like, no, ma'. Am. A 25 year old coming to my home and tell me that you are going to age gracefully. I'm so sorry. Come speak to me in 20 years. But I just, I used oil of Olay, which is what I started using in high school and never changed it. That's all I had. So you've reached the end of the journey.

B (52:33)

That's amazing.

C (52:34)

Oil of Olay on my face and dove. I washed my face with Dove soap, a bar of soap. And so then I hit my like 40s, got to the mid-40s and I was like, God, what the God? The. I had to buy a whole second cabinet to go into my bathroom for my potions.

A (52:57)

Oh, that's Amazing.

C (52:57)

I mean, you guys also, I am curious and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. I'm a very recent convert to microneedling. How do you feel about it?

B (53:10)

I haven't done it yet.

A (53:11)

I feel amazing. I think it depends on what micro needling. They cannot go too deep. I do believe in, like, the radio frequency of it all. The one tip that I will tell everyone and I will shout it is that if you do microneedling and you don't have a lot of downtime and they're going deeper, try to do either exosomes or PRP for just the healing of it. But I do believe in terms of, like, building back up your collagen, your. You know, basically the barrier. I think. I think it is a very good thing, and I think it's, for the most part, not really invasive, but a little goes a long way.

C (53:53)

Does it?

A (53:54)

Does.

C (53:55)

I mean, I thought it was just garbage, of course. I mean, there's so many things that we're supposed to be doing now, but it does. It does have this regenerative effect.

B (54:07)

I need to do it.

C (54:08)

And then, of course, yeah. Also, I don't know how yours goes, Molly, but, like, my esthetician, she puts all this numbing cream on my face so it doesn't hurt.

B (54:18)

It doesn't hurt.

C (54:19)

Your face just feels very weird the rest of the day, and then you have gotta heal over the next few days. But. And she also said this does better. Like, after the third and fourth time, I'm like, I'm sure it does. I'm sure you take my money, of course, but it does.

A (54:35)

It does.

C (54:36)

Yeah. It has, like, an accrued effect and.

A (54:38)

What do you mean?

B (54:39)

Your skin looks amazing.

A (54:40)

Your skin is amazing. I mean, it looks gorgeous,

C (54:45)

y'. All.

A (54:46)

No, because you're also happy.

B (54:48)

Look at her. She turned red. You can. You got.

C (54:50)

I did. That made me feel embarrassed. I got embarrassed. I just got sweaty.

B (54:54)

You look beautiful. You're stunning.

C (54:56)

Okay. Thank you.

A (54:57)

Can you be our therapist?

B (55:00)

Can we call you?

C (55:01)

Listen, I've got plenty of problems, so if I can solve some of your problems, I hope you can solve some of mine, because I'm still out here. I'm just still out here in the fight. You guys, I was thinking back about

A (55:13)

my life and what I used to do then and what I used to do now and my priorities then. My priorities now. I do think one thing, that Emisha and I, and you now in our threesome, we've gotten better with boundaries. I'm from the south, so I'm.

C (55:34)

Yeah.

A (55:34)

You know, I have a lot of guilt. I'm just so much freaking guilt that I don't even know why there's guilt, but there's just guilt built in.

B (55:44)

People pleaser.

A (55:45)

People pleaser.

C (55:46)

But I do think boundaries, cultural conditioning in the south is so deep. And then God help the Southern girls who also have church culture layered on top of it. All we do is guilt. That's our lead. That's the lead story of every day is so hard to reverse that narrative and to understand that that was sort of invented in the first place and misplaced. I'm still not good at it. I still feel a mild sense of guilt pretty much every day about something, just picking a story.

A (56:22)

But I'm better than I was. Much better.

C (56:24)

Me too. Me too.

B (56:26)

Don't you feel like we're in a better place? Like, I, you know, being. I'm 47, almost 48, and I feel like I'm in a better headspace and more secure. To your point, Molly, having boundaries, knowing what you will and will not tolerate, and knowing what your priorities are, too, I think that's something that really kind of comes into full focus. In your 40s, like, it's just. For me, that's been my awakening.

C (56:54)

I agree. How old are you, Molly?

A (56:57)

I'm 52.

C (56:57)

Are we allowed to say that?

A (56:58)

Yeah.

C (57:00)

What would you say you have done better? Where. Where are your boundaries? More like easily located in this season of your life that maybe they weren't before?

A (57:10)

I have deep protection over my family and my time. Most of the things that I've done in my life, they work out until they don't. Right. So I'm like a cat that just doesn't die. I just keep pivoting, you know, writing, trying to act, trying to mom, you know, hosting, trying to mom. Doing, producing, trying to mom. Like, everything is such a balance. I have become ultra protective over my output, my energy, and how I protect that within my family. And also how I show up. Right. Like, sometimes it's not going to be how other people think I'm going to show up. Right. Like, I mom hard, I work hard. Some people have a problem with it. You know, I can get more things done when I have a lot to do, and then when I got nothing to do, I get nothing done. That's just how. That's just my speed. Yeah. But I'm very protective, like Imisha, over the people. Like, I let into my. To my world, I run a tight ship. I am a helicopter parent. It's terrible. I Know, but

C (58:26)

I don't know that it's terrible. I don't, I don't know that it's terrible.

B (58:29)

I agree.

C (58:29)

Because it would, it would have to be your. I'd have to hear your definition of what you are self identifying as a, a helicopter parent. But this world is bananas and they have, they are coming for our kids

A (58:41)

and, but also like I think them watching you, you go through all of those things. Even watching me, like, you know, losing my parents, you know, Emish's daughter getting sick, like, these are life lessons that, you know, I hold almost like an education to them because I'm helping them see that everything is gonna be okay. I think when our kids see everything so perfect, I don't always think that's a good thing.

B (59:13)

No, I agree more. They need perspective, they need reality.

A (59:18)

They need to build resilience. They need to know that they do. It's not, it doesn't work out. And you know what? That's okay. I have an A type son who is so worried about making a mistake that I literally say, I hope you have a good day. Make mistakes, be a leader, be kind, you know, and literally I have to because the whole world is not going to end if something goes wrong.

C (59:49)

Oh, I have so much compassion for that personality because that was me. That's, that is, that's my personality.

A (59:56)

I know, Me too.

C (59:57)

I've got a kid like that too. He's 23 and I'm watching him move through the world right now and I am like sometimes brokenhearted. How hard he is on himself. And I told my mom and my dad, I said, you know what? Parenting him has helped me understand what it might have been like to parent me. I see it now through the eyes of a mother and it's a little bit heartbreaking. Like just trying so hard, so afraid to step one foot wrong. Just chasing excellence and achievement like there is no other story to be had. That actually is a hard personality to parent.

A (60:38)

It's hard, right?

C (60:40)

It's hard, yes.

A (60:42)

You have to meet these kids. And I will always say when people ask me about parenting and I dare give advice only to Emisha and myself, like, really? And a couple other friends of mine, you know, you have to meet each of them where they are. You want more than anything for them to be the same, go through life, like they're just different. And you have to like my third, my gray, I mean, he ain't worried to make a mistake. He doesn't give a shit. Totally.

C (61:16)

I got one of those.

A (61:16)

He is happy he goes through life. He is.

C (61:19)

Yeah.

A (61:20)

You know, it's, it's, it's very hard.

C (61:24)

It's, it's, Isn't it crazy?

B (61:27)

And you can't teach that.

C (61:30)

No, no, no. There's no parenting book that'll like walk us through this because we have to, we have to parent the kids we have, not the kids we were. And then we get these like wildly different kids. I've got one that is wound. I've got two of them wound as tight as I ever was. And then I have a kid who is so type B, she's like, hey, I'm going to Brazil next week. My phone doesn't work. Like she's texting me from a yurt. I don't know where she is. She doesn't know when she's coming home. She just lives lightly on the earth and so, and isn't that wonderful? They're gonna. I love it for her. Her energy is so different from mine and I'm jealous. I'm jealous of her young adulthood, watching her just move so freely, like through the world. And so like uninhibited by all these narratives that just had me by the throat at her age.

A (62:28)

Girl.

C (62:29)

And so they are who they are.

A (62:30)

I mean, if Brooke Stuber asked me one more time every day, what's the plan today? What do I have? What's the plan?

C (62:42)

Uh huh.

A (62:43)

My kids love a plan. Minus, minus the third.

B (62:46)

I wonder where that comes from.

A (62:49)

I wonder where that comes from. You're amazing. We asked. I could go on and on. If you could go back and talk to your 10 year old self, knowing everything you know, what would you tell her?

C (63:02)

Bless my 10 year old self. One of my worst years. Oh, I think I would tell her. You, you are so dear, like just how you are with your little nerdy heart and your little book collection and the things that you love and sort of this earnest way about you and you don't have to try so hard. The people who love you will love you. The people who like you will like you. You will find your place best by being your actual self. Boy, I shape shifted. I shapeshifted so many times to find the right room that would have me. And I wish I would have just gone into the room that fit.

A (63:53)

You're amazing. I love this conversation. Awake A memoir. Jen Hatmaker, New York Times bestseller. Follow Jen Hatmaker. Make sure you list the Love her podcast. We love you. I cannot wait to be on your podcast. You're amazing. I, you know, hearing you speak at the summit and with hello sunshine. And just you are. You are a light and it is so refreshing and honest and transparent and that is everything that Lipstick on the Rim is.

C (64:27)

What a nice thing to say. Thank you so much. I think we could have talked until tomorrow morning.

A (64:33)

I literally we could talk to. If we had alcohol we could have talked for a week.

C (64:39)

Oh boy.

A (64:40)

When I come to Austin I will call you. I would love to go out.

C (64:44)

I'm giving you my cell number.

A (64:45)

I would love it.

C (64:46)

I'll give you my number.

A (64:47)

Until then we will see. Emisha, I love you. We will see you guys next week. Love you.

B (64:51)

We'll see you next week.

A (64:54)

Thanks for listening to Lipstick on the Rim with Molly Sims and My Ride or Die. Emisha Gormaly. We are so excited to bring you guys along on this journey with us. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Lipstick on the Rim and at Molly B. Sims or you go to my blog where you can dive just a little bit deeper into my favorite products, trends and more@molly sims.subsack.com don't forget to check out our video episodes on my YouTube channel, Molly Sims. This podcast is production with Sony Music. I wanted to give a special thanks to my team, Rosie Cummings, Ken Orion, Sophine Kevorkin and everyone at Sony Music. Don't forget to listen and follow wherever you get your podcast so you never miss out on the fun.

B (65:41)

Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Fashion News and Features Director at Vogue and co host of the Run through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott and Simone Bellotti. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mel, head of Editorial content at Vogue US and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of Editorial content as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch the run through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel.