← Live Free with Josh Howerton
Live Free with Josh Howerton
3 Megachurch Pastors Discuss Charlie Kirk’s Martyrdom & Church Revival | Live Free with Josh Howerton
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode. Okay, guys, welcome to a bonus episode. The first ever bonus episode of Live Free. Right after. We just got Visconti on last week. I've had McPherson on before, and now the family's together.
- [00:54]
B
Together again.
- [00:54]
C
What an honor.
- [00:57]
A
Hoodlums for Christ. Okay, here's. Here's what we're gonna do. There is something really amazing that's happening in churches right now, and the three of us are in a tons of text threads with other pastors, and it's like, dude, something's happening right now in our churches and in the nation. It's raising a bunch of questions, and it's like, what do we do right now? So here's what this is. We're primarily talking to other pastors, but this is for anybody that loves the Church of Jesus Christ, anybody that's a leader of any kind. And we're going to talk about everything surrounding what just happened in our churches. So we're going to. Let me just kind of tell everybody where we're going to kind of go. We're going to talk about what's happening in our churches, what we're seeing. I want to ask you guys the question, is the word martyr appropriate for what happened? Charlie? Kirk. Why? Why not? I want to. You know, a lot of people are doing this thing or hearing, hey, if your pastor didn't preach on the assassination of Char this week, you need to find a new church. Do we agree with that or not? There's actually. There's a whole bunch of stuff that I want to hit and I want to hit. Last time the three of us talked about our White House visit, people online called us MAGA church pastors instead of mega church pastors. And I would like to respond to that. So, anyway, let me just jump right in. Like, I don't know about you guys. I finished this Sunday, and, like, I honestly went home. I took a walk and wept in joy.
- [02:20]
C
Yes.
- [02:21]
A
I was just McPherson, why don't you start? Ryan, I'd love to hear from you. What happened to your church this week?
- [02:30]
C
It's hard to put into words. I mean, Easter level attendance, highest non Easter event attendance in the history of our church. Highest non Easter event response to salvation in the history of our church. People came, hungry people came, hurting people came with questions. We had people come. I had a guy come up to me afterward. Big guy, strong guy, strapping dude, never been to church. A family member invited him. Knew he needed to go looking for answers. Didn't even know who Charlie was until he saw the news. People so deeply impacted across all different spectrums of life by the tragedy of the event, by the witness of Charlie's own words. And so we just saw just an outpouring of the spirit of God. Just a flood of people coming down to pray for the Kirk family, to pray for, for our nation to respond in repentance and faith. I was just with our college, our college group this morning. We have a college here on campus. And one of the guys, freshman here at our college texted 10 of his unbelieving friends from high school. All 10 showed up for church on Sunday. So just a remarkable outpouring the spirit of God and more than anything, a level of spiritual hunger that I personally have never witnessed in my life. I mean, Easter gets close, but I've never experienced the level of spiritual hunger, spiritual questioning and spiritual hurting that we witnessed on Sunday.
- [04:00]
A
Ryan.
- [04:00]
B
Yeah, I think even the spiritual atmosphere on Sunday was even higher than it is sometimes on Easter where agreed all day, worshiping as hard as people could. I could barely get through the sermons and services as people just wanted to clapping at every point. But yeah, attendance was just insane. We had every chair being used, every overflow, space was full. We had a line of cars down the street waiting in. People were walking a half mile, mile to the building because they had to park so far away. It was almost as much as we had on Easter this year, but with three less services at our largest campus.
- [04:39]
A
Jeez. What were you at, Ryan?
- [04:42]
B
We were. We were at 7200 on Sunday. On Easter, we had 7900.
- [04:48]
C
So it's crazy.
- [04:49]
B
Pretty, bro.
- [04:50]
A
That's stupid.
- [04:51]
C
That is.
- [04:52]
B
It was crazy. And for frame, we've been averaging like 52,5300 the last month or so. So it's incredible. A megachurch worth of extra people on Sunday. Just hundreds, 200 people saved. Almost.
- [05:10]
C
Jeez, Unbelievable.
- [05:11]
B
Just hundreds of guests. Almost 100 firsttime families check their kids in the kids ministry and and here's what I heard over and over again. Like you guys, people who hadn't been to church in a decade or 20 years or ever said, I'm going to church this Sunday. I think one of the most surprising things, and I don't know if this gets ahead of us here, but multiple people said that they were in church at another church and their church wasn't saying anything about what happened to Charlie. And they were just so frustrated and upset that they got up, left their church and drove to my church. And I think that is just a reflection of people were so hurting, shocked and grieved at what happened, that they just desperately, on a soul level, needed to be ministered to in that moment. That's not a normal, like, church hopper, consumeristic, you know, type of decision to get up and leave a church service like that. That's not something that was offended over a difficult biblical truth. That's just a reflection of people really needed to be ministered to on Sunday. And that is why they came to church in such record numbers. What about Josh? What did you see?
- [06:21]
A
Dude, it was. It was the same. I'll get the. I'll finish. So our reports, because of the campus, you know, structure, our reports usually settle over like the 48 hours after the weekend. So it'll settle at the end of. As of this morning. I think we'll end up with 5,000 more people at church this week than the same week last year.
- [06:43]
C
That's wild.
- [06:45]
A
And same as you, Ryan. Like, we had probably way more than this that indicated, you know, I always do an invitation where I ask people to raise their hand publicly to indicate a first time decision. Follow Christ. Way more than this, like, indicated a first time decision. But we had 400 people that actually like texted in, took the step, signed up for like, I just got saved. I want to be baptized next week. It's like 400 people. And then I'm going to. Can we toss that picture up real quick? Trinity. So, like, you guys probably saw this same thing. Somebody. This is what our services look like. Can you do it? Yeah, yeah, this is what our services look like. Somebody took this picture in one of them. So what that is is the service was full. Those are a bunch of college. Do I get weepy talking about it? Those are a bunch of college students that just were like, there's no seats, but I got to hear something. And so they're just like covering the stairs in all the services just to hear Bible teaching, man. And just like you guys, dude is like just watching People during the services, like, probably more weeping during the service than I remember in a very long. It was interesting, like, both more weeping and more like, rejoicing. Applause like, let's go. It was like weeping and charge the battlefield was the vibe at the same time.
- [08:13]
C
It's like the events of the week cast all of the truths of the gospel about heaven, hell, death, life, forgiveness, the covering of the blood of Jesus, the possibility of a new life. The events of the week just cast the good news of the gospel in such a bright light to contrast hopelessness without the gospel that every word in every song feel like it meant something more. And so just the intensity of the morning was to what Ryan's already said. It was at levels I've just never seen before.
- [08:52]
A
Same. So let me pivot, because we want to start talking about, like, man, if you're a pastor, like, how do I handle the moment? How do I steward a moment if the Lord is beginning, if this is the cloud, the size of a man's hand and a downpour is coming, how do we seize the moment and steward it? I want to talk about that here in a second. So, like, can we just zoom out? Ryan, I'm curious what you think. Like, I don't. I have almost not talked to a pastor who didn't have, like, record attendance. Like, what do you think? And you're seeing, like, these vigils all over the country, like, like, lost college students coming to these vigils and, like, praying. Like, I'm curious what you think. Like, what do you think's happening spiritually?
- [09:35]
B
Well, you guys have talked a lot in the past about what pastors need to do to build a healthy church culture and. And lead through our cultural moment in negative world. And if pastors have been doing that over the last three to four years, then they have essentially put themselves in position to catch the wind that is blowing right now. There is a spiritual awakening, I think, that is happening in people's hearts. I mean, it's too soon to know if it's something of historic proportions, but our prayer is that it is. And you see all across America, any church where they have essentially done the work to create a healthy culture that is committed to biblical truth. People know they can come to that church in times like this and be ministered to and be encouraged and receive hope. So we see it at college campuses here in Arizona, where Turning Point headquarters is at nationally. So in church services, we had a lot of senior Turning Point staff this last week, people who worked with Charlie every day, and knew him and were close to him. And so they're seeing the college campuses, they're seeing thousands, tens of thousands of new chapter requests to open a turning point chapter. I mean, it's going to, it's going to backfire on the enemy. It's going to backfire in a big way.
- [10:50]
A
Amen.
- [10:51]
B
And I believe Erica Kirk, God's going to use her in great ways as well. But this would be a word that I have for any church that would say we didn't see a big attendance day or it didn't feel incredible at our church. That would be a warning sign that there are some real problems that you might need to start addressing right now. Because do you mind.
- [11:10]
A
So I'm like, do you mind me asking like, like click on that for me.
- [11:15]
B
Yeah. So I have gotten some responses on X and from some friends that, hey, it's not been a great week for our church. We had leaders leave, we had people get mad that I even posted about what happened to Charlie Kirk. Pastors have said, and I think that is honestly a reflection of, of leading up to this moment. Pastors have not done what was necessary to put a flag in the ground and say, we are for life, we are standing against abortion, we are for unity. We are not going to play the DEI game. We are for God's definition of marriage. We are not going to pedal around, we're not going to tippy toe around the sexuality issue. And if pastors have been clear on these issues, instead of trying to build a church by catering their message to progressive leaning people, then they've had a great week. If they haven't done that, it's, it's brought things to the surface that were already there. A disunity over truth and what matters most.
- [12:16]
A
Josh Agree. Disagree.
- [12:18]
C
Additional Comments no, I completely agree. I, I countered it when we were talking earlier this week. Josh I counted I'm on text threads with 48 different pastors and all but one or two who haven't stepped into this moment experience the same thing we're talking about. So this isn't us getting on the phone to say, look how awesome our church is. Part of the motivation we had for this was to signal to the people listening because they don't have access to talk to 50 pastors and to know what's going on. So part of this is we're not trying to manufacture something that's not there. We're trying to highlight what God is doing across the nation. And what I'm saying is 48 pastors, one after the other after the other are jumping on these threads and saying, easter level attendance, Easter level salvations. Never seen anything like it. I mean, the universal response from pastors that we know who are in the game addressing cultural issues, acting with boldness and courage and clarity in this cultural moment, are seeing the winds of revival blow through their church. And the pastors who aren't addressing these issues aren't seeing the winds of the spirit of revival blow through their church. And so it's not so much that, that I want to jump on and say, if you're not talking about it, you're a coward. I don't know why you're not talking about it. My encouragement is consider why you're not talking about it. Consider if it might be a fear of man driving your silence, and reflect on whether or not that reflects faithful shepherding. Because here's the deal. Every single human being that comes into your church is asking, how do I think about this and what do I do? And I believe it's a part of the shepherd's job if they're going to be faithful, to open the word of God and give them answers. I'm not saying what to say or how to say it, but I'm simply saying to ignore addressing this moment feels to me like you're sticking your head in the sand and pretending that life isn't happening. Everyone else in our church has to live in the real world. And it's part of our job as shepherds to address what's happening with the word of God, to frame the events of the world we're living through so they understand what's happening in the context of the bigger context of the kingdom of God.
- [14:40]
A
So then, like, so I'll just, I'll ask you guys the question. I think a lot of pastors and I, I, you know, I know what I think. And, but okay, so what do you, what do you say to the guy? And you know, either you guys jump in here, what do you say to the guy who, honestly, it might not. Maybe here's how he would frame it, and I'm gonna frame it that way. He would say, dude, honestly, it's not cowardice, it's, it's like, it's evangelism. I'm trying to become all things to all people. You know, I live in a progressive city. I got a ton of progressive leaning people in my church. Or, man, the people in my church are inundated by progressive media outlets. So they've only ever heard negative things about Charlie Kirk. So if I had Gone in real clear. I would have just alienated half my church. So they'd be going, man, it's not cowardice, it's an evangelism strategy response.
- [15:32]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think at a certain point my pastor has to ask himself, what kind of church do I want to be the pastor of? Do I want to be the pastor of a church where there's division over such clear matters like this? Do I want to be the pastor of a church where I have to tippy toe around, walk on eggshells when something like this happens? Or do I want to pastor a church where people are passionate about God's word and the truth? A few years ago, I decided I'm going to lead the church I want, not the church that I have. I'm going to preach to the church that I want, not to the church that I have. And over time, God is going to develop people in the way that I think honors him and I think is pleasing to him. And you posted about this so well yesterday. Josh Howard, stories a little inside of baseball for pastors. When pastors cater their message to progressives, they're going to find that over time, it's like the body becomes anemic and you cannot be healthy and you cannot grow strong with spiritually malnourished and divided people. And this is just, I'm just going to say it for you, like the healthiest and strongest Christians in your church are going to leave if you lead with weakness. And over time, your church will get weaker and weaker and less effective at reaching the lost because they're under discipled and underdeciped. People don't reach the lost. So you got to decide. This is, this is just a thing. It's going to keep happening whether it's an election cycle, a tragedy or whatever. Like every time that happens, it's like shaking the church. And anyone that is not anything that's not healthy is going to come to the surface and it's going to keep exposing these problems. So a pastor has to ask, like, am I going to rip the bandaid off and just start leading with courage so that my church can become strong and bold and healthy, or am I going to keep doing this for the rest of my ministry career and suffer and not reach as many people as I actually could?
- [17:27]
A
So let me give it, let me give an example of what you mean, Ryan, by like ripping the band aid off because we were all friends where, Ryan, you and me were friends when I did this. And then, Josh, I'm gonna say something and Then, Josh, I want to come back to you and say, here's a question I'm gonna ask you in 30 seconds. So Ryan's like, hey, man, if you cater your preaching to progressives, your church will become anemic here. In 30 seconds, Josh, I'm gonna ask you the question. Somebody might be watching and say, yeah, but you're just doing the opposite. You're catering your message to conservatives. And what would you say to that? So in 30 seconds, I'm gonna ask you that, Josh. Ryan, this is what. So to give an example what you're talking about, I very frankly, this is what I used to do. I used to kind of go like, all right, man, you know, I, I, I don't want to alienate anybody that's part of my church. And some people have these political leanings, and some people have these political leanings. And so if something was politically divisive, I would just generally try to downplay it, avoid it, or like, super massage the language so that maybe we can get everybody to come along together. And then I started noticing exactly what you said, Ryan 1. I noticed like, oh, dude, I'm not attacking some of the ideologies the New Testament literally tells us. It says we destroy arguments and every idea that sets itself self up against the knowledge of God. And I started noticing, dang, because I'm not confronting those things head on. My people are actually getting sucked into these things. So then it was in 2021. You can probably still find the sermon. I had a sermon where it was height of BLM riots, and I was finally like, you know what? Rip the band aid off. And I knew, I'm not an idiot in a church our size. I knew what would happen. And I just put up the BLM vision statement. And I walked through it word by word. We are trained Marxists. We want to deconstruct the western prescribed nuclear family. We are queer affirming, you know, all of. And I just watched it later. Yeah, that's right.
- [19:38]
C
Got so much attention. They tried to hide it. Not that they took it out of memory statement. They just tried to memory hole it. So I, I still have screen grabs of that website.
- [19:46]
A
That's right. And you know, honestly, that was a, that was a rough two weeks here where it was like, okay, there's a little. But here's what I figured out. It's that proverbs thing of what we want to do as pastors is build up the wise, correct the foolish, and drive out the evil. And there were a lot of humble Christians who, they struggled with it at first, but the more they thought about it, they were like, you know what? My pastor is right. And they repented and they changed. And then there were some people who were so emotionally committed to what was an evil organization's cause that they left. And honestly, my church got stronger and more unified as a result. This week. There was no division in my church at all, just unified. Celebrating Ryan. And then let me go back to Josh.
- [20:33]
B
Let me just spell out for people like, what happens if you don't do that?
- [20:37]
A
Ryan, can you eat your mic? I. For some reason your volume's a little low.
- [20:40]
B
Yeah. Does that sound better? Here's what happens if you don't do what Josh just described in a moment like what we just experienced yesterday. The strongest Christians in your church who are really resolute in their faith, they become frustrated and they lose confidence in your leadership. The good hearted Christians who are maybe a little less spiritually mature, they just become confused and they go, now I don't really know what to think because my pastor's not giving me clear guidance. And then there are like evil people in your church who intend to do harm. And if you don't correct them, they will spread their toxicity. They will spread their lies to other Christians through life groups, through relationships. And the problems in your church just become more complicated and more dangerous.
- [21:30]
A
Josh, let me go back to. First of all, agree. Josh, let me go back to you. So, you know, Ryan said, hey, man, if you try to cater your preaching to progressives, church can get anemic. What do you say to the person who points at you and goes, yeah, but you're just doing the same thing the opposite way. You're just catering your message to conservatives.
- [21:52]
C
In the spirit of Charlie Kirk. I would just flip it on them and say, why do you think it is that when I open the Bible and preach Bible verses, it aligns with the party you call conservative? So I mean, I mean, I. And they may not be convincing for some, but I'm like, I'm not up in the pulpit using political language in sociological categories for people. I'm preaching the Bible. I'm a verse by verse guy through the Bible. And it just so happens that verses in the Bible are lining up with the values that are currently being held by those who would call themselves a conservative political party. And so I look at it and I go, bro, it's just a damning. It's a damning admission that the progressive secular party has nothing to do with a biblical worldview. So when I Talk to people about. Or when guys will ask me if I preach that, I'll lose it. I tell them, look at the example of Jesus. Jesus had zero concern for saying things that would cause people to be driven away. And so I oftentimes find myself cautioning, pastors, don't work so hard to have a higher retention in your preaching than Jesus did. Jesus spoke the word of.
- [23:13]
A
That'S good. Keep going.
- [23:15]
C
Jesus spoke the truth. And it wasn't 50% truth, 50% grace. It was 100% truth, full of 100% grace. And it drove some people away. And Jesus didn't chase them. He didn't say, okay, did that offend you? Let me water it down. Are you still interested? Oh, you're not yet. Let me water it down more. Are you still interested? He just laid the truth out there. And I think oftentimes pastors get in trouble when instead of being the man who delivers the message, they tried to be the one who convicts people of the message. That's the work of the Holy Spirit. That's not our job. And so. But when we neuter the message, when we edit the message, when we water down the message, we actually inhibit the ability to. Of the Holy Spirit to do anything. And I want pastors to hear, I have LGBTQ people come to our church. I got handed a book yesterday by a woman who is very, very high up in a very public corporation that everyone participates in or buys product from almost every day in this country. She's at the very top of the C suite of this organization. She was a flaming liberal feminist. Showed up at my church her first Sunday after three years of being invited, she shows up to our church, and I'm preaching on wives submitting to their husbands. And her friends were like, oh, my gosh, we can't believe we brought her. The Holy Spirit convicted her that morning. And a year and a half later, she hands me a book that she wrote on the toxic lies of feminism that led her to throw away the first 35 years of her life. And so my encouragement to pastors is, do not hold back the word of God, the truth of God, and stop doing calculations in your mind on how you think it's going to land. The calculation you run is, what is God going to think about what I say? Stop fearing men. Stop doing the calculus of how many will stay. Get in your closet. Seek the Lord, walk in the power of the Spirit, and deliver the goods and let the chips fall.
- [25:19]
B
Amen.
- [25:21]
A
Yeah, it's like, I just want to keep pointing that out. Like, hey man, I think all of us would say this. Like we have not. It's not a thing where pastors should accept the GOP into their heart and just like, oh man, you know, I'm, you know, it's like we're just on Team Jesus. And the way that things align right now, it just so happens that there is one party that is openly in their publicly stated policies. They're openly for active rebellion against God in five or six very significant areas. And there's one party that's not. And so it's not about, it's not about political parties for us, it's about Team Jesus for us. And then there's, you know, the secondary thing of which you know, which, which party is more closely aligned. Is that a good way to say it, Ryan?
- [26:03]
B
Yeah, and it changed over time, has changed over the last decade. The way that the Democratic Party looked. It used to not be in the state of over rebellion against God. And there was room to disagree. Maybe lean more Democrat when it comes to social policies or tax policy or foreign policy. But today, as you said, it's very true. The Democratic Party has enshrined in their party platform, that is manifesto, that is their commitment stated publicly for the record what they are pursuing, what their agenda is. It is rebellion against God. And there's not really a lot of room within the party to, to, to differ from the platform and to go a different way. So really that's why you see all Democrats around the same causes and very, very little people, very little varying from that. But we're not getting up preaching from gop.com on Sundays. We're opening our Bibles and people have associated biblical truth with mag or conservatism. And it's like, okay, if you want to draw that connection, then people make that connection because they are connection between biblical truth and what this Republican Party tends to stand for today.
- [27:23]
C
Well, I don't think, I don't think we should. Sorry, go ahead, Josh.
- [27:27]
A
No, I was going to based on what Ryan said because I think it's tangential. So like last time we hopped on a pod together, you know we did, we talked about debriefed our White House visit and some things we were seeing out of the White House faith office. They were like crazy encouraging.
- [27:40]
C
Yeah.
- [27:41]
A
And you know, like that we had some of that stuff like went a little viral and then you know what, you know what? Some guys were like, these guys aren't megachurch pastors. They're MAGA church pastors. Josh McPherson. I reject that label. But Josh McFirst. And it's okay if we disagree. Josh McPherson, what do you say?
- [27:59]
C
Hey, if the shoe fits. No, I'm totally kidding.
- [28:04]
A
Josh is like, let me change hats real quick.
- [28:06]
C
Yeah, where is that thing? Yeah, I just think. I just. I think the tactic of the enemy is to accuse and label. And so I just. I just reject labels. I'm just. I'm just like, what an immature way to have a dialogue. Let's look at the substance of our life and the substance of our conversation. And then I don't think it's. It's off or it's out of bounds to say out loud things like our president is saying publicly, consistently. He wants our nation to come back to God. He gave more of a clear gospel presentation on Easter from the White House than I've heard some pastors give. I just. I don't know why we're not celebrating that and talking about it more. And it's like, oh, we can't say this. Say what you want about his past. Right now, in this moment, this man is leaning into desiring a nation that aligns with the moral law of God. And I don't know why we can't celebrate that. That's not selling out our souls. I mean, dear Lord, read the entire Old Testament. It's about prophets and priests speaking into the life of the king so that he could make laws and lead and conduct a nation in line with the moral laws of God. And we have a president who is asking pastors to pray, who is asking pastors to the White House to speak into his white. I've heard 300 times from members of this White House saying, you have a voice in this White House. You have a seat at the table. What's been done in the name of politics and power is egregious. The amount of examples of anti Christian discrimination are rampant that they're uncovering and exposing. And what they're saying is, we want you to have a seat at the table to reestablish our nation as one nation under God. And it's not political to cheer that. You know my buddy Adam, Josh? You and Ryan both know him. One of my pastor buddies here, one of my dearest friends, made the observation yesterday I thought was so powerful when we read Paul's exhortation to take every thought captive. He gives that charge in the context of doing spiritual warfare in the public square. And the observation Adam made was, I've always applied that personally, take every thought captive. There is also an application sociologically, right when we hear ideas and ideology that is counter to the word of God. It is our job as prophets. It is our job as shepherds to take that thought captive, to say, no, that is not right, that is not true, that is not from the light, that is not from heaven, that is not from God. That is a lie. And to expose it through the power of the Spirit with the word of God. That is our prophetic call to do. And when we go silent on lies of our day that are capturing people's minds and hearts and then ruining them by leading them down roads of destruction, we are failing to do our job as shepherds. And so I just put that out there for pastors consider. It is your job to not just take every thought captive in your mind. It is your job to take captive those thoughts and ideas that are not from heaven, but rather from hell and are in the public place and gaining momentum. And Charlie did that possibly better than any other person I know. He was going into the public square, he was going into the marketplace, and he was actively, winsomely, graciously, patiently, lovingly taking captive every thought that sets itself up against the kingdom of God. And most people have just watched clips of Charlie. I would encourage every person out there to not listen to what people say about what Charlie said, but to go watch an actual hour and a half engagement, because very few people have watched an entire engagement. If you watch an hour and a half clip of him at a college, he's laughing, he's inviting people to talk, he's letting people argue with him and make cases again. He's not interrupting them, cutting them off. What you see in the clips is him responding to them. What you don't see is the 15 minutes he let them talk before then, asking questions, understanding their story and engaging in their curiosity. He was a remarkable example of taking everything captive. And I'm not ashamed of him, dude.
- [32:29]
A
So I watched the. I think Ryan may have turned me onto it, the all in podcast with Chamath and Jason. So Jason is the dude on the all in podcast. These are like four San Francisco tech billionaires. Jason is the guy on that podcast that's the most progressive. Jason. He tweeted this this morning, to your point, Josh. Basically his original response was like, I hate that guy. And he had just, you know, racist, said the civil rights was bad, said black women don't have the mental processing. Like, he had heard all the little snippets where people, you know, take and twist. And then this morning he tweeted, okay, I've watched 40 Charlie Kirk videos now at this point, and not one of them was outrageous. His opinions were the exact same as the Catholics. I grew up one. I used to be one. I disagree with many of those traditional beliefs, but nothing he said is shocking. In fact, they're extremely predictable for a Catholic. And I'm actually seeing. It's all the little sound bites. Like, we won't go into it right here. This is for a different podcast. But it's like, I literally saw it going, like, almost viral. Charlie Kirk called an Asian woman a racial slur. He said chink in the. And then you go watch the video, and he's literally talking to a Muslim man whose name is Chink Uygur.
- [33:46]
B
C uygur.
- [33:47]
A
And he's. But it's like, so people, like, literally this was, like, massive viral. And then you go watch it. And so to your point, Josh, so let me transition so that dynamic creates a tough spot. If you're a pastor in, like, a super progressive city and your people, Ryan, I've heard you say before, you can have real feelings based on wrong thinking. And if your people have only ever heard the selectively edited, twisted clips, and so they actually think they have real feelings based on wrong thinking. They actually think, oh, dude was totally racist and hated. Da, da, da, da, da, da. And you're like, man, if I go in, I'm going to alienate half my church. Because they have real feelings based on wrong thinking, Ryan. What do they. What's that, Pastor? Do you. Yeah.
- [34:36]
B
Well, can I say one thing first? Because I think this is important when we get called MAGA church pastors or something like that. Okay. That is a label used against us, misrepresenting reality and in an attempt to steer us. The hope is that we will pull back from what we were saying and we will start to act different, differently. So it's an attempt to manipulate and control. I know all of you guys very well on a personal level, and I can say for all of us, our first love is Jesus Christ. Our second is our families. Our third is our church. And then comes our country. Every decision we make and everything we preach flows downstream from that order of love. Okay, so don't let other people control you. Then what? I would always say pastors who are dealing with that reality. My people think this. My people think. I just want to point out one of the Ten Commandments is. It's not actually. Doesn't actually say, do not lie. It says, do not bear false witness.
- [35:40]
C
Yes, that's good, Ryan. Okay, that's good.
- [35:42]
B
So to. To.
- [35:43]
A
To.
- [35:43]
B
To spread and repeat and act as if a false accusation is true is directly breaking one of.
- [35:52]
C
That's right, bro.
- [35:53]
B
If. If you are claim to be a Christian, here's Charlie Kirk, who is a professing believer in Jesus, and he was a real Christian. He loved Jesus. Quick little anecdote. When Charlie was in my church about a year ago, when he got there, I was like, hey, what do you want to talk about? Is there anything you don't want to talk about? And he's like, I don't really want to talk about politics. He's like, I want to talk about the church. I want to talk about Jesus. I want to talk about men rising to lead their families with boldness. I'm like, let's go. He's just such a loving, kind of gracious, respectful, humble guy. I don't know if I've ever met someone who had that much influence in the world and was that humble. This guy. This guy had the president and Vice President of the United States calling him on his cell phone on a regular basis. All right, all right. That's Jesus, right? When someone in your church believes a lie, even if it's emotionally difficult for them to hear the truth, truth. As a pastor, you know that knowing the truth sets them free from bondage. And I believe that when you tell someone, you tell someone the truth. When you actually love them in your heart, in their spirit, they're regenerate. They can sense that. That this pastor is speaking truth, that he loves me. It might be hard to hear. It might be uncomfortable, but if the truth is shared clearly with love and fiction, it pierces the soul. And so you got to tell people the truth because you love them.
- [37:26]
C
That's right.
- [37:27]
D
Hey, guys. Hey, guys. We are creating kind of podcast episodes because we believe that discipleship happens in relationship relationships. Having said that, said that we want to do what it looks like to be a disciple group where we together and open up the word of God together. Grow, grow together. Followers. Followers of delivery. Free Christ for this reasoning in. But honestly, honestly, we don't. We don't just want you to be a listener. We want you to be an participant. And so. And so if you. If you have not joined, join group group. You need to. You need to get into rooted. Rooted is 10 weeks. That helps you grow closer.
- [38:11]
C
God.
- [38:11]
D
Build relationship relationships. Discover the purpose for your life, guides you to practice seven rhythm rhythms of following following Jesus. Something you know. You know, into something you actually live out every single day. Day. And so whether you're Follow Jesus and you're ready. You're ready. Or maybe searching. Searching for people. Life. Life with rooted. Rooted for.
- [38:36]
C
For you.
- [38:37]
D
You just text the word Rooted. 200411 and our teams will follow. Do not wait. Your. Your step.
- [38:46]
C
Step.
- [38:46]
D
Start. Starts now.
- [38:47]
A
Now.
- [38:48]
C
What. What would you. How would you respond to that? Oh, you're just Meg. You're just mega pastors. And Charlie was a racist. What would you do with someone like that?
- [38:55]
A
I completely. I completely. It's. I totally agree with what you guys said. I think it's a. Labels are almost always a manipulation tactic.
- [39:03]
C
Yes.
- [39:04]
A
Label and dismiss. That's honestly, that's what Satan does. Label and dismiss. If I can label you and dismiss you, I don't, I don't actually even have to engage in dialogue with you and refute what you're saying.
- [39:14]
C
That's right.
- [39:14]
B
So.
- [39:15]
A
So that's number one. I think it's like usually a tactic by more progressive leaning pastors to like not have to actually engage with the biblical arguments.
- [39:25]
C
That's right.
- [39:26]
A
So 1. I just reject it. No, no. I'm on Team Jesus. And if right now biblical convictions just so happen to more map onto modern conservatism than modern progressivism, okay, that's great. Then I'm going to be very clear about that. And if that were to ever change, I would be very clear about that. So I just completely reject what you're saying. And then I totally agree with what Ryan said. In fact, I'm doing it. The. The live free podcast that'll release later this week is I'm going through the primary. The primary lies or misunderstandings that are people are saying about Charlie and then like, okay, let me show the actual clip. This is what he actually said. And either show it's a lioness misleading or then I'll say, actually, you know, what he said was right and here's why. Even if it's unpopular or honestly I would want to call balls and strikes, if I disagree with something he said, I would say, hey, I disagree with that. And that's okay. Let me ask you guys the question. I used the word martyr in my sermon this week, but let me present, quote unquote, the other side. A lot of people are like pushing back on that term. So Ryan or Josh, whoever wants to go first, here's the objection, man. It's actually, I know he was a Christian, but it's actually inappropriate to call him a martyr because he was actually killed more for political beliefs than for his religious beliefs.
- [40:57]
C
So yeah, I can jump in Here, Ryan, you can catch up with or you can fill in. I think it's using the term martyr to describe Charlie Kirk is 100% accurate because that's what he was. He was not shot because of his political views. He was not shot because of his big personality. He was not shot because he offended some people. He was murdered because he was effectively reaching a generation for Jesus Christ. He was not shot because he was talking. He was shot because hundreds of thousands upon millions of young people were listening to what he was saying. And at the heart of Charlie Kirsch message was the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was not primarily a political animal. He was first and foremost a son of God who felt it his mission to win as many souls to Jesus as possible. You know, in one clip I watched this week, he said the most important thing is to win as many souls to Christ as possible. And the second most important thing is to secure religious freedom so we can continue doing the first.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah, there you go.
- [42:10]
C
And so he was on the record, explicitly so repeatedly so as saying his sole mission was to win as many souls to Jesus Christ as possible. And he gave witness to Jesus Christ everywhere he went. Two minutes before he was assassinated. He's talking about the finished work of the cross in the man Jesus Christ to a crowd of largely Mormons. He's answering their questions, he's inviting them to ask questions, and then he's declaring the man Jesus Christ over a crowd full of Mormons. He was very clear on who Jesus was. He was very clear on the gospel. And what Charlie Kirk did was he had the audacity of to believe that the word of God is authoritative over all of life from our sexuality to our relationships to the marketplace and to, yes, even politics. And so in Charlie Kirk I see a man who was committed primarily and foremost to proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ. And people were listening to him and that's why he was murdered.
- [43:19]
A
Before Ryan responds, I'm going to read some of his final words to your point, Josh, these were some of Charlie Kirk's final words. It's not just intra biblical evidence, but extra biblical evidence that Jesus Christ was a real person. He lived a perfect life. He was crucified. Dude, I'm getting emotional reading it. He was crucified, died and rose on the third day. And he is Lord and God overall.
- [43:42]
C
That's right. That's right.
- [43:43]
A
What a stud. What a stud.
- [43:47]
C
And we have to recognize that what's happening before us is spiritual. Right. This was a demonic attack in the physical realm on a servant of Jesus Christ. And I say that because the proof is in the response. Right. If this was just merely a political assassination, there'd be cities burning and parties arguing. But because I believe it was primarily a spiritual warfare attack in the heavenly realms that spilled over into the physical realm. What we're seeing is what always happens when someone is martyred, and that is increased supernatural spirit born hunger for the things of God. That is what always happens. Which is why it's not cliche to say the blood of the martyr waters revival in the heart of the church. And so I think the outpouring of almost universal global response to this assassination is increased spiritual hunger and increased spiritual harvest. I think that is the defined apologetic to how we should think about Charlie's life.
- [44:56]
A
I'm gonna. Ryan, I want you to give your riff on whether martyr's right or not. But, Josh, you said. Bro, you just said something. I have not thought about that. Hey, the response to it proves the reality of it. That's right, because it's two things. You're seeing two things. One, you're seeing the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. That's Tertullian's quote. And it's like massive spiritual outpouring, highest church attendance, people flocking, you know, to the things of God. And then on the other hand, you're seeing demons rejoicing.
- [45:25]
C
That's right.
- [45:26]
A
And so it's like, dude, the. The response to it maybe proves the reality of it. Now, Ryan, agree or disagree on the word martyr and why?
- [45:33]
B
It starts with the fact that all of Charlie's worldview is shaped by the Bible and that he was a committed Christian. And as you said, McPherson, he believed that God's word was authoritative, and he said that out loud. And people who know him know that he was about to become even more focused on evangelism in the years ahead than he has been in the past. And he's already been a great evangelist. Then I would point this out. He might be not just a martyr, but perhaps the greatest American martyr in history in that he didn't die in a far off jungle. He died on American soil, killed by an American trying to reach Americans with truth that is founded in God's word because he spoke the truth. Look who killed him. It was somebody who was steeped in transgender ideology. And there might not be any more demonic ideology on the earth today than transgender ideology, which rebels against the created order of God, starts with confusion, and keeps leading to destruction in a very public way. Not just hurting people, but shedding the blood of the most innocent people. And we've seen these shootings happen with, with schools and children and people being killed just because they are sharing ideas that really the devil doesn't like. And so he is a martyr. And pastors should be clear on that.
- [46:53]
A
That's exactly right. The reason I use. It's what you said, Ryan. The reason I, like unequivocally use that word in the sermon is that all of his people are like, well, you know, yes, he said some things about Jesus and was explicit about the gospel, but man, it was really like some of his views on transgenderism that he was. That he maybe was killed for. And part of it, what I would say is, well, hey, where do you think he got those views from the Bible? So it's like we're talking about somebody who, to Ryan's point, dude, he was actually killed for biblical beliefs. Oh, by the way, that he explicitly rooted in the scriptures. So I totally think it's appropriate.
- [47:35]
C
I agree. Sorry not to cut you off. If you listen to do extended cuts of him because he talks to LGBTQ crowds, he talks to people who come up and. And when they. If he's talking to some like random white woke professor, he would get very aggressive. If he was talking to someone who came up who was genuinely wrestling with it, he was very tender. Yes, he was very kind. And that speaks to me of a man filled the spirit of God. When he was talking to someone who was aggressively pandering lies, he responded with equal aggression. When he was talking to someone who had been captured by those lies, he was gentle and tender and loving and clear and firm and kind. And it's kind of like Jesus. Kind of like Jesus. It's like when Jesus was dealing with the Pharisees who were pandering lies, he was aggressive. When he was dealing with people who were captured by those lies, he was tender, loving, and kind. And I think it just speaks to the nature of his ethos and his character. I mean, anyone criticizing Charlie, it's like until you set up a table and given anyone permission to come and say whatever they think about you and then respond in love, you have nothing to say. We will never. We will never fully comprehend the courage of that man. Weekend and week out to go to the darkest places, set up a table, and with no notes, invite a conversation about the things that matter most. And Josh, if I could just say something about the gospel being the center, not a boundary. Our conversation that before, when pastors think about the gospel they need to think of it in these terms.
- [49:13]
A
Josh, can I set up what you're about to say?
- [49:15]
C
Yes, let me.
- [49:16]
A
I'm going to set up what you're about to say. Take it. Especially in the team that like me and Josh kind of came out of, it was kind of, hey, this is the gospel centered movement. And in the gospel center movement, it was kind of like, hey, man, really what it means to be gospel centered is we focus on the gospel. And by gospel, we kind of meant justification by faith alone and penal substitutionary atonement. And sometimes in the crowd that we came from, it was like, man, if anybody veered into like social media, social, cultural or political applications of the gospel, people like, whoa, you're not being gospel centered anymore, Actually, you're like abandoning the gospel. We should stay gospel centered and that kind of thing. So that's what you're talking about, Josh. This is like super pastor nerd niche stuff. Yeah. So that with people having that in mind, say what you were going to say, Josh.
- [50:10]
C
Okay. John Frame pointed this out and helped me think about this. There's two ways to view the gospel. Gospel as center or gospel as boundary. And the irony is the gospel centered crowd had turned the gospel into a boundary. Meaning to be gospel centered meant you could only talk about those things that make up the gospel. Grace, repentance, faith, those kind of things. And what that does, then it walls off what a pastor can address or talk about. And so a pastor ends up just kind of saying the same things every week from a different perspective. So every sermon is about salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ. Every sermon is about justification. And even conversations about sanctification become oddly about justification. It's just kind of this weird gospel echo chamber where the gospel never gets out. And so what John Frame, the profound theologian, 800 page Systematic Theology, who's thought about this deeply, what he says was the gospel is not a boundary, it's the center. Meaning the gospel touches all of life. Therefore, we not only have the right, but the obligation to show how the gospel touches every part of life, from our relationships to our sexuality to our finances, and yes, to our politics. And that's the difference. So when a pastor is using the word of God, like Charlie did, quite frankly, to address social issues of the day, he's not being extra biblical, he's being gospel centered. And that he's showing the staggering, stunning, timeless relevance of the good news of the gospel and the word of God to all of life. Because when in the name of being gospel centered, we Wall off. What we allow ourselves to address with the Word of God, what we're inadvertently and maybe unintentionally teaching our people is the Bible doesn't apply to most of the real life that we live in. But when we open the Word of God and show how the Gospel is the center of all reality and how it touches every layer of our life, we're showing people the profound relevance of the Word of God to all of life.
- [52:22]
A
That's great, Josh. Yeah. All right, let me pivot, Ryan. There's. We just had high attendance weekends, massive spiritual momentum. This seems like something is happening in the hearts of the people of our nation. What do you do? Let's talk to pastors. What do we do to seize the moment? What is it? Like, do this right now?
- [52:50]
C
Yeah.
- [52:50]
B
With so many people being stirred on a spiritual level right now, I do think we need to recognize that there's a unique opportunity, and we're also going to face a unique level of opposition. And, you know, when McPherson was talking about how genuinely this wasn't Bible verses for that. Yeah. This is a genuine. What happened speaks to what it was, as you said, McPherson and the outpouring of God's spirit at church on Sunday. But at the same time, the demons are rejoicing. And I don't think any of us are surprised that we're going to see increased opposition. One of our close pastor friends is dealing with death threats. I mean, out of my close pastor friends, I think, like, more than half of them now are dealing with legitimate death threats and have been in contact with the FBI and with police and. And, you know, as you said on Sunday, Josh and I talked about it as well. You inspired me. Is just like, we have to look in the mirror and ask, am I willing to die for this? And recognize that, like, there is an element of human fear that is normal to wrestle with. I mean, I deployed to a combat zone, and on my first mission, it really hit me. Like, I could get blown up and wake up in heaven, or I could have my male genitalia blown off by a roadside bomb. And that's not pleasant to think about. And it caused me to kind of fear. Not to be graphic. Sorry to the ladies.
- [54:16]
A
Hey, which one would be worse, the genitalia being blown up 1000%.
- [54:22]
C
I'd rather be with Jesus.
- [54:24]
B
Take me, Lord. And like, that hit me at a young age. And it's just. It's crazy how that is getting more and more relevant in ministry. To think like, man, if I say some of the things that Charlie was killed for saying, like, I could be hurt. So, pastors, it's time to do, like, you know, a bit of a gut check and ask yourself, like, am I willing to die for the gospel or am I just a pastor? Because it sounded cool. And then, like, expect opposition in your church. Expect the enemy not to go quietly. There will be people in your church who cause dissension, who cause problems, and those are schemes of the enemy. Don't let that disruption cause you to question what you know is right. When the enemy starts to scream and shoot, flack your way, that just means that you're over the target. So keep pouring it on.
- [55:13]
C
That's good, man.
- [55:14]
A
Josh.
- [55:18]
C
What'S the question again, bro? What to do from here? I'm sorry.
- [55:21]
A
Yeah, it's like if you're a pastor, you're going, hey, dude, something just happened in my church this week. There's spiritual momentum in the nation. What should I do right now?
- [55:31]
C
I would say step into it, capture it. Ask the spirit of God to give you wisdom. I mean, I'll just say what we've done. We scrapped our fall plan. And I'm not saying we always do that, but for us, we're looking at it going, this is such a massive cultural moment that to move on as if nothing had happened seems kind of weird. So, Josh, you told the story of I don't want to steal your thunder. Wednesday morning at 9:39 or whenever you showed me the text, I forget, whatever.
- [56:00]
A
It was, it was nuts. Dude, that has not happened to me very often. You go ahead.
- [56:05]
C
So what happens to me is God speaks to his sons differently. Some are hearers, some are feelers, some are seers. I don't hear the voice of God so much as I see the work of God. And so that's how, like, my visionary brain works. And for the last three months, I could not see this fall. I couldn't see where to go. I couldn't see where to preach. Josh, you and I have talked about, you know, your calendar is your micro driver system, blah, blah, blah. I could not see it. I could not get it. I had three different sermon series that I had sketched out. I was not excited about them. I could not. I just couldn't get behind it. It was the weirdest thing. It was frustrating. I was praying, I was fasting. I'm like, lord, what in the world? Fifteen minutes after Charlie was shot, I had 12 weeks outlined in my mind.
- [56:49]
A
There it is. Spirit just gave it to you.
- [56:51]
C
And so I took that as the spirit of God, he'd been saying, I have something different for you. Wait, and I'll give it to you when you're ready. And so we've sketched out a three part sermon series, Turning Point USA in four weeks on what revival looks like and what the spirit of God is doing in our nation. We're not addressing political things, we're addressing spiritual issues. And then we're doing four weeks on the unseen realm. Because I believe this is primarily a spiritual war, not a physical one. And the third series is a four part series on the art of war, waking you up to the battle you didn't know you were in. And so I would just encourage pastors always view your plans as in pencil. And God can erase them and rewrite them at any time. And so I'm not saying throw away your plan. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is be open to God leading and directing and moving you. And if we can't be the kind of men who discern the times and respond, then what are we doing? We're not here to play church. We're not here to run a program. We're not here to organize a social club. We're here to mobilize the active presence of. We're here to mobilize the church of Jesus Christ being filled with the active presence of God in response to what's going on in the world. And I'll just tell a pastor like, hey, just so you know, never before in my lifetime have I seen one event result in the Blue Angels flying a missing man formation the day after it happened. Yankee Stadium stopping and pausing and putting the man's picture on the board in a moment of silence. Dallas Cowboys Stadium being filled for the precise purpose of memorializing this man. The Chicago Cubs holding a moment of silence. 3 million people marching in London streets. The Polish Parliament holding a moment of silence. I didn't even know Poland had a parliament. I'm like, what? Like the Polish Parliament? The President of the United States going on Fox News to announce personally that the killer had been seized. Air Force Two being dispatched to bring his body home. Erica Kirk, his wife's address being the largestly viewed event in the last 10 years online. And on and on it goes from South Korea to Chicago. The outpouring in response is something globally like I have never seen. And what we're hearing is people who don't know Jesus don't go to church. Being so marked by the man's life of gentle engagement with people who Disagree with him, that they're like, I can't shake it. Why was he murdered? This is wrong. And they're showing up at our churches, men. We have not. I won't say obligation. We have opportunity.
- [59:28]
A
That's it.
- [59:29]
C
To open up the word of God and to give them Jesus. And so my expectation of pastors would just be be open to the spirit of God, leading and directing you to respond in a way that capitalizes on the moment. And I don't mean that in a mercenary way, but I'm telling you, Charlie would want us to capitalize on this moment. And I'm not going to let Stephen get martyred in my presence on my watch and not say something about it.
- [59:53]
B
Preach.
- [59:54]
A
Amen, Ryan.
- [59:55]
B
I mean, I would just say this to pastors as a brother in Christ and man to man, because I love you and want the best for you and your church. If the Yankees are more bold about the truth than you are, that's a problem.
- [60:09]
C
That's right. That's right.
- [60:11]
B
We should not allow secular institutions like sports teams be more clear and more bold about what's right than the church of Jesus Christ.
- [60:20]
C
That's right.
- [60:20]
B
So we've got to step up and do what is required of us.
- [60:24]
C
That's right.
- [60:24]
A
On that note, let me ask. I've. There's something I want to say about what to do right now, but on what you just said, Ryan, I do want to ask you guys a question. And we. Honestly. You guys may disagree with me. You're not hurting my feelings at all. We love each other. We're big boys. You know, you see in a lot of the men, if your pastor didn't preach on the assassination of Charlie Kirk, leave your church. I want to know what you guys think. Here's what I would say. I disagree with that. What I would say is that pastor didn't necessarily do something wrong. What I would say, at the very least, he missed an opportunity. That's what I would say. The reason I would say that. The reason I would say that is I'm just very sensitive to the fact that, man. There's a difference between prophets and shepherds. Prophets tend to walk in, drop a truth bomb, and walk away. Shepherds lead you in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. And so what a shepherd's got to do is go, okay, my sheep are here. I need to get them over there. And today I can get them from here to here. And I'm okay with that. So I got a lot of grace for that. So I would Not. I personally would not do the thing of man, if your pastor didn't specifically preach on this thing, leave your church. I would say this. And, you know, some people, you know, may hate this. I would say, man, if you're a pastor and after the death of George Floyd, you insisted, you absolutely insisted that your church grieve it, and you preached a pointed message about how this must be addressed. And, you know, silence is violence. Silence, violence. But this week, what we, we did silence after violence and we equivocated and. Oh, man. Well, there were three, you know, there were three tragedies in our nation this week, both. Like, if you're a pastor that did that, I do think you need to pause, look yourself in the mirror and ask, are my principles driving me to places that are displeasing to the living God?
- [62:26]
B
Yeah, I'll jump in on that. We both feel similar about this, that I don't like using that phrase a lot. You know, hey, if your pastor didn't say this or if your pastor didn't do this, then you should leave the church. Because who am I to judge Another man's servant is what Paul says in Romans. And I'm not responsible for every other church and what every other pastor is dealing with. So I hesitate normally to use phrases like that. And I. And I think it's also a type of manipulation that gets used among conservatives and on certain, in certain circles. If you don't talk about this, just like liberals do it, too, if you don't talk about this. And the thing is, like, man, I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be forced into addressing every news event or every tragedy. I, I have a different agenda than what's happening in the local news. But I will say this. If a pastor was not willing to address this issue and not willing to address it clearly, it is at the very least a pretty big red flag. And there are two potential problems there. Either, one, he does not discern the times and what is happening and what his people need ministerially in support, or two, he is afraid of man and afraid of potential backlash and not willing to face it. Any other calculation, like, well, man, my people are this demographically, or I don't know how far I can get them, or like, it's probably more one of the two things I just listed.
- [63:53]
C
Yeah, Josh, I would agree with all of that. I think that's very well said. Here's a perspective that's helpful. I've talked to several pastors this week, and they were like, I was out of town, and I had my intuition, Bro, that sucks.
- [64:09]
A
I'll just be honest. What a horrible moment to have to be out of town.
- [64:12]
C
Yeah. And I mean. I mean, the guys I talked to, they were planting another church in another city. I mean, they were on mission for. They weren't, like, on vacation sipping Mai tais on a beach somewhere. They were on mission in our town. And they felt the moment so big that they didn't want to put the weight of that on their associate pastor or on the intern that was covering for them while they were gone. And so they said, hey, hold off on it. We'll address it when I get back. And Monday morning, they're, like, wracked with guilt, like, our people needing me to address this, and I didn't. I mean, oh, my good goodness, brother. So much grace. Not a single person in that church should be judging that guy or running, giving him the riot act. He's trying his best. And there are a lot of dynamics that go into the calculus of deciding what to address from the pulpit in the life of a church. And so I've got zero issue with that. And so that's one scenari just to put out there.
- [65:07]
A
That's great. Josh.
- [65:08]
C
Yeah? The other scenario. Oh, sorry. The other scenario is, you know, if your pastor didn't address it, you know, should you leave? Well, again, I get really uncomfortable just making blanket statements about that. And so I think what Ryan said is very good. There could be two issues going on. Lack of discernment or lack of courage. Here's why I think the coward word could be appropriate in some scenarios, and I get pushback from this from some folks. And so I want to be very clear. I don't think the word coward should be used quickly or without thought. And I do think it is a word that appropriately describes some pastors. And cowardice is not a small thing. In the book of Revelation, we're told that cowards will not inherit the kingdom of God. And so it's a big deal. And so it's like, when we think about shepherds, we tend to think of them in kind of the pale palette of paintings where they're there with a harp and they're just petting this cute little soft sheep. We need to think of shepherds in terms of the modern day. Or I should say the modern day. No, I shouldn't say modern day. We need to think of shepherds in terms of the US Cowboy. Right. The ones that pioneered the west, they slept outside by themselves. They could fight off bandits and animals. These are tough dudes. And if a shepherd sits and watches his sheep get eaten by wolves, that's not honorable. That's cowardice. Or he just doesn't know how to do his job. And so here's how I would define cowardly. And I think this is helpful. If a pastor genuinely believed, with deep conviction, he had an obligation before God not to address this issue. He's not a coward. I think he's missing it. I think he could be clueless. I think he has a really bad paradigm for thinking through how to shepherd his people, but he's not a coward. If a man, however, was wrestling with whether or not he should address it, if a pastor was wrestling with whether or not he should address it, and felt like he should, but started running the calculus of what will my board say? What will people say? What will a big donor say? What will the Internet say? And because of that calculus, chose to violate his conscience by not saying anything. That is, by definition, cowardice. Because you felt convicted to do something, but chose not to out of fear. And I think if that's the reality of it, that that could stick. And so I'm not into, like, pushing people away from churches, but here's what I experienced during COVID and then I'll get back to you, Josh. During COVID or before COVID we used to say we want to see more people meet, love, and follow Jesus. That does not mean rearranging the same sheep in different pens behind the curtains. That means reaching lost sheep that are not yet in the fold. After Covid, we started seeing our church flooded with people who had been in a church for weeks, months, or even years that didn't reopen, that wasn't preaching the gospel. And for eight months, because I'm in Washington, so it's Mordor here, it was a misdemeanor for months and months and months to leave your home without unless you were getting food, going to a strip club, getting an abortion, or buying marijuana. I'm not making this up.
- [68:34]
A
I'm not making this up.
- [68:36]
C
And so people came to our church because they were starved to meet with the church, worship Jesus, and be under the word of God. And I changed my paradigm. And so their paradigm used to be, we don't want to rearrange sheep in new pens. We want to reach lost sheep to bring them into the fold. My new paradigm is, unless you're a sheep who's been abandoned or starved by your shepherd, then you're welcome. And that's what we experienced on Sunday. It's like, my pastor hasn't been addressing issues for years. I can't take it anymore. I need help knowing how to think about the world I actually live in.
- [69:10]
A
I have sympathy for that. Okay, I hate to do this, guys. I got to wrap this up here in the next two, three minutes. Let me just say. I'm going to say maybe. How about. Let's just do closing. Closing thoughts. If there's anything that didn't get covered, you're like, man, this needs to get covered. And again, I'm so sorry, but I got a, I got a jet and so if we could keep it kind of succinct, that'd be good. I'll just say one last thing. I didn't. These guys, you guys shared a little bit about what you think pastors should be doing right now. I'll dovetail what they said. One, I think what you really don't want to do is awkwardly ignore what's happening in our nation spiritually. So, like, you know, man, I'm not saying I don't think a guy needs to like, you know, pull the rip cord on his sermon series and do a four week thing on Turning Point, whatever. If you do that. Okay, I don't think you need to do that. But what you definitely don't need to do is make it feel like you're awkwardly ignoring the spiritual moment. So, like, you know, it's like, you know, you just don't want to look ridiculous. Like if you're doing a four week cute topical series on Instagram. I don't know, whatever it is, you know, it's like, maybe not the moment. If I'm you. What I'm doing is increasing the spiritual intensity of my preaching. I am very, very much. There's going to be aggressive invitations to repent and come to Jesus every week because it feels like we have an open heaven right now. And what I'm not going to do is stand before God and him go, hey, man, I gave you every opportunity in the world and you didn't even give him a chance to come to Jesus.
- [70:51]
C
That's right.
- [70:51]
A
So I'm going to be very aggressive on that. And then to what Ryan said, I think you would be very, very foolish if you increase the spiritual intensity and charge battlefield. You'd be very foolish not to expect increased opposition. It's interesting, in the scriptures, there's multiple times where the demon doesn't start to shriek until the moment that Jesus casts it out.
- [71:15]
C
That's right.
- [71:15]
A
And then the moment that Jesus begins to cast it out it shrieks and it starts raising hell. Yeah, I think a little bit of what's happening right now is you're seeing, like, some righteous things begin to advance in our nation.
- [71:30]
C
That's right.
- [71:30]
A
The demons are going to begin to shriek, and the same thing will happen in and around your church. So I think, like, dude, you be prayed up. You gather people around you who are like, Pentecostal ish. Believe in the actual power of the Holy Spirit.
- [71:46]
C
Charismatic friends, man, get them quick.
- [71:48]
A
Yeah, whatever that thing is y' all do, will you do it for me?
- [71:53]
C
If you can pray in tongues, do it now.
- [71:55]
A
Do it now, brother.
- [71:57]
C
To your point is just to encourage pastors. There is an elephant in the nation.
- [72:03]
A
That's a great way to say it.
- [72:05]
C
If you ignore the elephant in the nation, you're gonna look kind of silly and out of touch. And so what I would encourage pastors, again, I'm not saying pastors have to rewrite their sermons. I'm just telling you what I experienced. But what I am telling you is just exactly what you've said. What I know for sure is people are going to come with questions, and there is an increased spiritual hunger across the nation right now. Preach the gospel and call for repentance, and it'll shock you. And we have a verse for this. A great door of effective work has opened before me and many oppose me. And so I'm just going to be totally honest. We had threats to us this week online from the same crowd that shot Charlie and SWAT team hit their home. They're in jail over the weekend. They had bail hearing yesterday, and I had to sit in my house and I had to run the calculus again. Am I willing to die for Jesus? And bro, I'm telling you, like, should I wear a bulletproof vest? Should I even stand up? I mean. I mean, I'm not typically a fearful person. And I had to work and I'm just trying to be vulnerable here. I had to work at corralling my imagination. This weekend, same and ask myself again. And people don't think about this, but we have standing, no contact owners. We have trespass people from our property. We regularly have lies spread about us online that take things we said out of context to mean something we don't. And they're stirring up the same crowd that shot Charlie and you have to go. I'm saying the same things. Do I want to keep doing this? And I'm telling you, for me, that wasn't. That wasn't just. What am I trying to say here? That wasn't just a given. This week. I had to re up personally. I had to. I had to take a walk, like you said, and go, am I willing to. To lay down my life for this? And you wrestle with it, and then you come back and you're like, what's the inevitable response? No.
- [73:55]
A
Right.
- [73:56]
C
Better to live a short life as a courageous, faithful man than a long life as an unfaithful coward. And so I'm just telling you, for people listening, I'm not walking around just like, rah, rah, rah, stop this and go, lord, am I in on this again?
- [74:08]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [74:09]
A
So I'm sorry, I gotta. I'm trying to. Ryan, you want to close this out?
- [74:12]
B
Yeah, I'll just quickly read. I want to just say what, Reframe this in this way. A lot of the older generation that mentored us when we were young pastors tended to not address these types of moments. And they had the mindset of like, I'm gonna be above the fray as a leader. And they were actually kind of respected for that a lot of times by their church and by other pastors. But today, it's not being above the fray. It's more. Not addressing a moment like this is more being out of touch. And when all these people online are saying, I'm going to church for the first time in my or for the first time in 10 years, they're. They're not coming into the doors of our church to not have this spiritual moment be addressed. And if you don't, as a leader, address these moments, you're about to experience the parable of the talent where the opportunity that might have been given to you will be taken away and given to a faithful servant instead.
- [75:08]
A
Wow. We're going to finish right there, gentlemen. I love you and I'm really proud to be your friend.
- [75:13]
B
Amen.
- [75:14]
A
Thank you. Love you guys. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church, slash Live Free. We'll see you next time.