Live Free with Josh Howerton

4 Megachurch Pastors Discuss Christian Nationalism

Lakepointe Church • Aired October 15, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Pastor Josh Howerton moderates a vigorous, candid roundtable with fellow megachurch pastors—representing different ministry and geographical perspectives—on the topic of Christian nationalism. This is a subject rapidly gaining traction in American cultural and church discussions, so the group dives into defining, defending, and debunking the most prominent arguments and objections.
The conversation’s tone is passionate, humorous, sometimes biting, but always aimed at clarifying truth, separating fact from caricature, and equipping Christians to think biblically and actively about faith’s place in public life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Christian Nationalism”

• Controlling the Terms

  • The group agrees that whoever controls the terms wins the debate (03:01), so it’s critical to first define “Christian nationalism” clearly.
  • They distinguish between outlandish caricatures (“idolizing America,” “state church,” “convert or die” theocracy) and their actual view: Christians desiring to see Christian morality and influence shape the culture and laws of their nation.

• Rejecting Caricatures

  • None of the pastors advocate America = Christianity, uncritical patriotism, blind support for all US actions, or replacement of the gospel with civil religion (10:21, 16:14).
  • They disavow the idea of establishing a state church or overturning the US Constitution.

Quote:

“What we're communicating—this isn't like the Mormon theology of Christ returning to Independence, Missouri and establishing the new Jerusalem... We're talking about Christianity permeating every sphere of society, including the political sphere. There is not one realm on earth that Christ is not King of or Lord over—including the public policy or the political realm.”
—Russell Johnson (12:35)

2. Common Objections to Christian Nationalism: Analysis & Responses

a. Caricature & Strawman Arguments

• The viral clip by Justin Giboney is played and mostly disagreed with:
  • The accusation that Christian nationalists idolize America or cannot admit American wrongdoing is dismissed as “a boogeyman that doesn’t exist” in real churches (07:44–09:48).

Quote:

"Nobody is doing that. You are criticizing something that only exists within the mindset of, like, MSNBC contributors. It doesn't make sense."
—Russell Johnson (09:22)

b. Is Christian Influence in Government Historically Authentic?

• The pastors argue America’s founding and constitutional framework are explicit in their Christian influence (16:55, 44:15, 81:28).
• They cite:
  • Statues of Moses in Congress (17:45)
  • Founders’ quotes requiring Christian commitments for public office (81:28, 84:49)
  • Bible-based curricular foundations in public education (87:30, 99:01)
• Historical America criminalized many behaviors expressly called sin in the Bible—adultery, sodomy, blasphemy, etc. (87:30)

c. Separation of Church and State

• The phrase is not in the Constitution but from a Jefferson letter. Its intent was to protect churches from government interference, not to keep Christianity out of the public square (92:30, 93:39).
• “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...” applied only to the federal Congress, not the states, many of which explicitly established Christian requirements (93:41-95:19).

Quote:

"Separation of church and state is nowhere in the founding documents... When [Jefferson] wrote it, his point was to assure [a Baptist congregation] not that he was going to keep the church out of the state, but that he was going to keep the state from infringing upon the church."
—Josh Howerton (92:30)

d. “We’re Exiles in Babylon, So Stay Out of Politics”

• Rebuttal: The biblical exiles (Daniel, Esther, Nehemiah) did engage politics, working tirelessly in pagan society for righteousness (46:31).
• The command to “seek the welfare of the city” literally means engagement with government (52:17).

Memorable Moment:

"There aren't a lot of examples of Christians getting involved in politics in the Old Testament, except for, generally speaking, all of Genesis, all of Exodus, all of Leviticus, all of Deuteronomy, 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, 1st and 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, all of the minor prophets, my gosh, all of that."
—Josh McPherson (49:14)

e. “Jesus Didn’t Get Involved in Politics”

• Response: Jesus’ teachings assumed all of life comes under His lordship—including politics (“make disciples of all nations,” “salt and light,” 53:28–56:14).
• Context: Jesus’ time was not a republic; we do have a vote, power, and responsibility.
• Paul repeatedly exercised his civil rights and challenged governmental injustice (66:14).

Quote:

"When Jesus said, you are the salt of the earth, he's fundamentally encouraging us to be involved in all of life. With our Christianity. If you keep the salt in the shaker, it doesn't help."
—Josh McPherson (53:28)

f. Idolatry of Power / “Christians Shouldn’t Seek Power”

• Rebuttal: Power is biblically neutral; it takes on the morality of the one who wields it. Christians are called to seek and use power rightly—otherwise, wicked people will (70:54–77:52).
• Meekness is not inaction, but righteous, loving exercise of responsibility.

Quote:

"If godly people will not seek political power and use it for godly means, godless people will. Your choice, your choice."
—Josh Howerton (77:52)

g. Christian Nationalism is Unconstitutional

• Response: Quotes founders, Supreme Court, and early laws to show the US was founded as a distinctly Christian nation (81:28–85:28, 100:59). “Separation of church and state” isn’t in America’s founding documents, and the real “establishment clause” was about avoiding a single national church, not religion’s exclusion from public life.

Founders’ Quotation Parade:

• “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and distinctly Christian people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
  —John Adams (81:34)
• “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion in general, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
  —Patrick Henry (82:25)
• ...and more (see timestamps).

h. “It Hurts Our Witness to Tie Christianity to a Political Party”

• Response: No political party is sinless, but one is overtly enshrining numerous explicit sins (abortion, sexual immorality, etc.) as party platform (107:34–112:59).
• Moral asymmetry means Christians have a responsibility to confront the greatest moral threats—and it’s not "tying" Christianity to a party to say so.

Quote:

“All you have to do is go to the DNC website and the RNC website, evaluate the publicly stated policies they're advocating for, and you have about 10 national sins that we're trying to enshrine over here. And I'm not aware of anything over here where we're trying to enshrine national sin."
—Josh Howerton (121:00)

i. Regional Experience Matters: Blue State vs. Red State Ministry

• Pastors from deeply progressive (blue) states (e.g., Seattle, WA) testify to the extreme difficulties of pastoring, evangelism, and basic Christian practice under aggressive leftist governance and worldview (129:14–134:25).
• Warning to those in “safe” red or purple states: the reality is much harsher than theorists realize.

Quote:

“Every day, Russ and I wake up, it’s an alley knife fight just to survive as the local church. And I believe when a government makes it hard for good people to do righteousness, they're violating Romans 13.”
—Josh McPherson (129:55)

“This is not theory for me... I've been out of my house three different times over the last four weeks because of verified death threats... What has led to the governance issues... is at least partially the responsibility of Christian leaders who have taken a backseat approach because they don't want to get involved in the 'culture wars.' The culture wars are downstream from the spirit wars.”
—Russell Johnson (130:59)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You are criticizing something that only exists within the mindset of MSNBC contributors. It doesn't make sense.” (09:22, Russell Johnson)
• “When you love your nation, you advocate for its best possible outcomes. And the way that we do that as believers is by advocating for the moral law that informs the civic law.” (40:48, Russell Johnson)
• “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and distinctly Christian people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (81:34, John Adams, quoted by Josh McPherson)
• “Nobody says that by wearing your favorite football team's jersey that you're committing idolatry and undermining your love for the Lord... It's rightly order, loves, love, the right things in the right order.” (42:12, Ryan)
• “Voting isn't a valentine. It's a strategic decision about the type of country you want your kids to inherit.” (122:28, Russell Johnson)

Important Timestamps

• Defining Christian Nationalism & Rejecting Strawmen:

  • 03:01–16:14

• Influence of Christianity on the American Founding:

  • 16:55–24:49 (Cites constitutional symbolism, founder quotes, laws)

• Objections Addressed Rapid-Fire

  • “Exiles in Babylon” — 46:31–51:08
  • “Jesus wasn’t political” — 53:28–63:38
  • Power/Meekness/Politics — 70:54–79:49
  • Constitutionality / Separation of Church & State — 81:28–97:10

• Moral Asymmetry & Political Engagement:

  • 107:34–124:49

• Blue State Reality Check:

  • 129:14–134:25

Conclusion

The episode closes with a somber charge: The passive or apologetic withdrawal of Christians from the public square, especially pastoral voices, has accelerated cultural decline in many areas. Active, public, and biblically-rooted engagement is not only defensible; it’s necessary for human flourishing and national health.

Final rallying cry:

“If godly people will not seek political power and use it for godly means, godless people will. Your choice.” (77:52, Josh Howerton)

For Listeners

This episode blends historical data, scripture, wit, passion, and a strong apologetic for robust Christian influence in American life—challenging believers to prayerful action and deeper understanding, wherever they find themselves on the political spectrum.