Are Christians Commanded to Support the State of Israel? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton
Episode: Are Christians Commanded to Support the State of Israel?
Date: July 7, 2025
Host: Pastor Josh Howerton (A)
Co-Hosts: Carlos Arousan (B), Bishop Paul Cunningham (C)
Main Theme:
A direct, nuanced exploration into whether Christians are biblically obligated to support the modern state of Israel, touching on theology, politics, end-times views, and practical discipleship.

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Overview of Episode

This episode blends scriptural analysis with current events, sparked by the recent Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson debate about America’s theological obligation toward Israel. The conversation tracks through the Bible, church history, and modern geopolitics, all aiming to answer: Are Christians commanded to support Israel? The discussion branches into eschatology (end-times doctrines), the meaning of “Israel”, and the impact this has on Christian living.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Acts 19 and Revival Readiness

[08:08–20:26]

• Paul’s Ministry in Ephesus:
  Pastor Josh shares insights from Acts 19, connecting Paul’s transformative work in Ephesus to the broader spread of the gospel.
  • The lecture hall of Tyrannus, the seven sons of Sceva event, and mass repentance in Ephesus.
  • The economic and social impact of Christianity on pagan commerce (idol-makers’ revolt).
  • The use of the ichthys ("Jesus fish") as an early Christian marketplace marker during persecution.
• Personal Call:
  Emphasis on being “revival ready” — awakening to the Word, the supernatural, and true repentance.
  • “You cannot be spiritually healthy and revitalized without... a consistent and heavy presence of the Word ... seeking the supernatural leadership of the Spirit ... and practicing repentance in my life.” — Josh (23:27)
  • Notable Quote: “Revival does not happen in isolation. You need to be surrounded by people that love Jesus as well.” — Carlos (33:56)
• Practical Application:
  The importance of Bible engagement, holy reverence (“fear of God”), and community discipleship (promotion of Rooted groups at Lakepointe).

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2. Theological and Political Debate: Should Christians Support Modern Israel?

[34:07–48:41]

• The Controversy:
  Reaction to the national debate (Ted Cruz & Tucker Carlson) about whether Scripture requires Christians to support the modern state of Israel.
  • Genesis 12:3 and the “bless those who bless you” promise to Abraham is the centerpiece.
• What is ‘Israel’?:
  Discussion on how ‘Israel’ can refer to:
  • The ethnic descendants of Abraham (Jews).
  • The Old Testament kingdom(s), Northern and Southern Israel.
  • The modern nation-state of Israel (founded 1948, largely secular in leadership).
  • The church as ‘expanded’ or ‘spiritual’ Israel (as in Galatians 3:29).
• Distinction Between People and Government:
  • “There is a distinction between the ethnic people, the Jewish people, and the government of Israel. …There’s a distinction, but overlap.” — Josh (39:04)
  • Citing historical examples of both righteous and unrighteous rulers of Israel and how this impacts the “support” question.
• Disagreement on Reasoning vs. Outcome:
  Paul notes that Christians can arrive at the same political support for geopolitical reasons, but for different theological reasons.

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3. Biblical Promises and Their Application

[48:41–62:51]

• Does Genesis 12 Apply to Modern Israel?
  • Paul: The promise is “expanded, not replaced”—the church becomes a recipient, but God’s covenant with ethnic Jews still stands.
  • “While I do not believe the church in any way replaces Israel, what I do believe is that the church is now the recipient of that promise to Abraham ... not exclusively to them.” — Paul (49:01)
• Overlapping Identities:
  • Significant overlap exists between modern Jewish people (nearly half live in Israel) and the state of Israel, but not all Israel’s citizens are ethnically Jewish, and not all Jews live in Israel.
• How Should We Bless Israel?
  • Blessing = Desire for flourishing, justice, salvation in Jesus — for all people, with a special calling to the Jewish people (Romans 9 heartache over Israel’s salvation).

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4. Theological Approaches & Eschatology (End Times Views)

[56:15–87:41]

• Covenant vs. Dispensational Theology:
  • Dispensationalists see Israel’s promises as literally and separately fulfilled; Covenant theologians see greater continuity, the church as the fulfillment.
• Tiers of Doctrine:
  • First tier (core gospel, Trinity); Second (baptism mode, church government); Third (end times views).
  • “Eschatological views have almost always been viewed as third tier issues ... we can have a drink and debate it with a Bible open.” — Josh (68:13)
• Three Major End Times Views:
  • Amillennialism: Millennium is symbolic; Christ’s reign is now, culminating in a return and final judgment.
  • Postmillennialism: The world will be largely Christianized before Christ returns.
  • Premillennialism: Christ returns before a literal 1,000-year reign; includes both “historic” and “dispensational” varieties.
    • Dispensational Premillennialism: (Popularized by Left Behind and the Scofield Bible) — the modern Israeli state is prophetically necessary; a future for ethnic, national Israel distinct from church.

Impact on Views About Modern Israel

• Amill/postmill/historic premill folks: See Israel’s reconstitution (1948) as strategically important, but not necessarily prophetically required.
• Dispensationalists: See Israel’s return as a fulfillment of prophecy, a necessary step before Christ’s return.

Notable Quotes:

“Depending upon how you approach the scripture is in large part going to determine how you approach the modern state of Israel.” — Paul (78:12)

Scriptural Reflections

• Galatians 3:16, 29 — The promise made to “seed/offspring” is singular, fulfilled in Christ; all who are in Christ are heirs.
• Romans 11:28-29 — “As regards election, they [ethnic Israel] are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” — Pastor Josh (89:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There's never been a Christian in history who's had a vibrant relationship with Jesus apart from a vibrant relationship with His Word. And we're not going to be the first.” — Paul (24:20)
• “If I look at the sun from 93 million miles away, it will burn out my retinas. And we think that we can just casually stroll into the presence of the living God… There's an appropriate fear that comes with knowing Him.” — Josh (30:23)
• “If you're an unbeliever...[He is] waiting for you to come to repentance. Because when Jesus comes back, for those who don't know him as Lord and Savior, it's the end for them.” — Paul (97:04)
• “It should not be controversial to not want the guy who chants death to America not to have nuclear weapons. Like, that should not be controversial.” — Josh (81:50)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Acts 19 Recap, Revival, and Graffiti in Ephesus: [08:08–16:05]
• Personal Discipleship & Community Application: [23:07–33:42]
• Opening the Israel Debate (Cruz & Carlson Clip): [34:07–38:56]
• Difference Between Jewish People & Israel’s Government: [39:04–42:25]
• Promise to Abraham Applied Today: [48:41–53:58]
• Are End Times Views First-Second-Third Tier Doctrines?: [64:00–68:13]
• Three Major Eschatological Perspectives Explained: [68:13–79:40]
• Impact of Eschatology on Israel Support: [79:06–83:28]
• Prophetic Vagueness and Humility: [83:28–85:01]
• Romans 11 and Supersessionism: [89:40–93:58]
• Practical Challenge and Closing Reflections: [94:54–98:08]

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Final Practical Applications

• Humility Required:
  “If the Apostle Paul is going, bro, I don't even get it. That's fine. Well then it's okay for us not to get everything.” — Josh (93:58)
• Urgency to Evangelize Jewish People:
  Commitment to blessing Israel most meaningfully by praying for and working toward revival and salvation for Jewish people (Romans 1:16, Romans 11).
• Unity over Division:
  Recognizing these are third-tier issues; Christians may wisely disagree on prophecy and policy without judging one another’s faith or motives.
• Participate in Community:
  Join a group, study Scripture, discuss with others — “You are one relationship away to experience freedom in Christ, in community.” — Carlos (55:06)

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Christians should approach Israel with compassion, wisdom, and a robust biblical framework — navigating both covenantal and dispensational views humbly.
• Eschatological views shape, but do not dictate, the personal and public duties of faith.
• The deepest Christian “support” for Israel isn’t unqualified political endorsement, but prayer and mission so that “all Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26).
• Doctrinal humility is vital: “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!” (Romans 11:33, cited at [89:40])

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Arousan. I'm here with Pastor Josh Howards and.

[A]

Carlos, what's that thing on your head, man?

[B]

Do you show. My new hat.

[A]

We're going to talk about the end times.

[B]

People are like, what is going on right now?

[A]

What going to.

[C]

I'm wondering the same thing.

[A]

It's going to be great. We're going to talk end times, Return of Christ, politics. Politics. Israel. Tucker Carlson.

[B]

Okay. Ted Cruz.

[A]

Ted Cruz. All the things.

[B]

So you need one of these.

[A]

Yeah. You got to have your tin foil hat on when you're talking about.

[B]

This is the new Lake Point merch. Is that what it is?

[A]

Yeah. We'll stick a logo on that sucker.

[C]

Coming soon.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Proceeds go to foreign missions, specifically to reaching the Jewish people.

[C]

Each one is custom shape, no additions in terms of repeating things.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Each one is its own custom shape.

[B]

They're going to be a great episode.

[A]

Great episode.

[B]

Very different. Hey, wait.

[A]

I'm going to take this off. We'll put them back on when we start talking Return of Christ, end times.

[B]

Josh, would you like to introduce our.

[A]

Guest today, Bishop Paul Cunningham? First of all, let me just say it's good to be back. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Welcome back, Carlos. Forgot I was gone. Oh, no.

[B]

I get to see you on a regular basis. So welcome back and happy birthday. Thank you.

[C]

Happy birthday.

[B]

Yes. Happy 31st.

[C]

Seventh birthday, man.

[A]

Thank you. That's. Lying is a sin.

[C]

He meant give or take a few years.

[A]

Give or take five years. 42. Yeah, 42 this year.

[B]

Okay. Well, I was speaking up of your. Of your inner spirit.

[A]

Absolutely, man. Being renewed day by day.

[B]

How do you feel in your 42?

[A]

42. I feel one day older than 41.

[B]

One day wiser one.

[A]

I hope. I hope so. Here's Paul Cunningham is with us. Paul is. He's our resident. He's our Theologian in residence. What's your official job title? Right now you've had like four.

[C]

I've had four or so. Right now it's lead pastor of staff. And so part of my responsibility is our theology, to help train our staff and residents, create some resources, really, anything I'm needed to do.

[A]

Theologian in residence, man, anytime I have a. We call him the theologian.

[C]

There's no pressure with that title either when you're theologian in residence or things like that whatsoever.

[B]

Every time I have a Bible question, I call Paul. Nah, I read the apostle Paul and then I call my friend Paul.

[A]

Paul writes my sermons. That's not.

[C]

That's not true.

[A]

That's not true.

[C]

On social media now. That is not true.

[B]

Is that good?

[C]

Paul's not good.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, man. Thank you guys for subscribing, joining, liking, commenting.

[A]

Good transition, Carlos, you're welcome.

[B]

I learned from you. And thank you for tagging us on social media. I mean, I love every time people tag us whenever an episode drops. And also the people are downloading the show notes. We've had. We've surpassed officially now over a thousand downloads for show notes.

[A]

That's great, man.

[B]

This is where, man, especially this episode, by the way. This is, you know, really important. Obviously, when people tune in, it's one thing to hear it, another thing is for you to chew on the content.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

And there will be a lot of stuff that we're going to be sharing today that's going to be really important. So everything that we will discuss, if people are taking notes, I know we have a lot of people doing, joining groups and coming together to listen to the pod. This is for you.

[A]

Carlos. Can I tease an idea that we're considering and tell them to respond, please? Okay. This is for real. Every platform, if you can respond to if this idea, if you would do this idea. So here's something that we're considering. No promises. So what you guys know what's happening right now is people are organically. They're listening to the sermon, and then they'll listen to the live free, the Deeper Dive podcast. Then they're just. We haven't even planned this. They're just like spontaneously getting in groups, especially dudes like getting in groups. Starbucks before work or diners. Like, we keep showing these pictures that people are saying, keep sending those, by the way. And then we'll shout out your group. And they're getting in, and then they're all sharing what did God show you during the. In the Bible teaching. Then they're they're confessing sin, talking about like, okay, I'm gonna. How am I gonna apply it in my life and family? Then they pray for each other, encourage each other. So here's. We're considering. You guys tell us if it's something we should move on. We're considering potentially just vertically aligning a group's option at Lake Point where it's like we just plan it. Like, hey man, listen to the sermon. Listen to Live Free. We would potentially create an aligned Bible reading plan that synced with what was being taught through the year. And then reverse engineering the show notes from being like discipleship questions for people to process. And then potentially no promises, like just building an app that puts it all right there. Like, boom, I can just grab it. So good idea, bad idea. If it sounds like a win, y' all tell us.

[C]

That's good.

[B]

Let us know in the comment section. We would love to hear from you and to. For people that are asking, okay, how do I get the show notes? You can go to Lakepoint Church shownotes and man, you're going to get all the info. Today's going to be a good one.

[A]

Is that the only way to get them?

[B]

You can go to the link in the description on the YouTube video. You can go to this or go to the website Lakepoint Church show notes and there'll be a little something on the screen here if you're joining on YouTube. Hey, we also have to celebrate this last weekend we had a big event.

[A]

Happening in the life of our church this last weekend.

[B]

This last weekend. We had, man, we had. We have a lot of events happening. We had a lot of events, but man, we just had student camp.

[A]

Oh, of course.

[B]

So we had. So we have to celebrate that, man, it was. Over a thousand high school students go to Glorietta and I have not broken.

[A]

There are 1500 people at just high school camp. So I gotta. I gotta call night. Clayton King. Shout out Clayton King preach the gospel. 292 students gave their lives to Christ that one night.

[B]

In one night.

[A]

One night. And then. Dang, man, I should have. I would have brought. We could have shown a clip. Tons of students exploring, calling in a ministry on their lives. All in, man.

[B]

All in. It was awesome. Amazing.

[C]

I love camp because camp is where God does a lot of work in a little.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[C]

And just to see that and the fact that we've been praying for that. Some parents been praying that for years and then to finally see that come to fruition, it's just Incredible.

[B]

That's awesome, man. Well, I'm ready to dive in. Acts 19. First of all, welcome back.

[A]

It's good to be Josh. I had a lot of stored up. Preach. From being out for a month.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Me And Janet, our 20th anniversary trip. It was great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Congrats.

[A]

Thank you. Well, our 20th anniversary is until October, but every year, what we do then, we'll start talking about the Bible in a couple seconds. What we do is we don't do, like, birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day, blah, blah, blah. We just, like, both of us are like, let's just combine it all and do one awesome vacation, just me and you. So we always do that every summer. And we do the thing where if the kids go, we call it a trip. If the kids don't go, we call it a vacation. We go on a vacation in the summer. So it was just us. It was awesome.

[B]

That's why you. You have a little color on you.

[A]

I'm a little tan. Jana, if you get Janet in a hammock on the beach, and she is good to be there for 10 hours. And I was there a lot, and I got a tan.

[B]

We can tell.

[C]

I was also at the beach. I don't have the blessing of God in my life for tan. I'm half Scottish and half Irish. That's 100% chance. I'll never get a tan in my life.

[A]

Half Scottish, half Irish. Theologians don't tan.

[C]

No, they don't.

[B]

I like it. I was trying to figure out a way to say, you know, grab that and then plug it into Acts 19. And I could not, let's talk about the Bible. So, hey, man, what did it make into the sermon? I'm curious.

[A]

Okay. There's a lot of stuff here. So first of all, let me give a heads up to listeners, because we're gonna. What we're gonna do in the back half of the pod is respond. While I was out, it was a very interesting national theological discussion. It's very rare for, like, the entire nation to be having a theological discussion. And it blew up where Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz did this interview on whether or not America has a theological obligation to support the nation of Israel. So I'm on vacation. I'm, like, texting you guys. I'm texting Jason Howard in. I'm like, texting everybody about, like, I was dying not to have a pod. So I was just like, as soon as we get back, we're going to talk about all this stuff on the pod. So the Front half of the pod, the deeper dive into the message. We're going to condense a little so that we can get into what is a pretty heavy theological discussion about Israel, end times, return of Christ. Our Jewish people that don't believe in Jesus saved all the things. So. Okay, let me talk real quick about a few things that make it in. First of all, Acts 19, we got Paul going back to Ephesus. It was pretty cool because I was actually in Ephesus recently. Can you guys toss up that picture of the library front? So this was when we were preaching through letters to the seven churches of Revelation. One of them is. That's it. One of them was letter to the church at Ephesus. Really interesting because Jesus, years and years after the events of Acts 19, you have this incredible spiritual awakening. Takes place in Acts 19. Apparently somewhere along the way, this incredible church that had a legitimate revival, they lost their first love, both for Jesus and for each other. So when we did, modern day Ephesus is in Turkey, we filmed a video like right there for the Letters of the American Church series. It's the most mind blowing city, biblical city I've been to. Like, there's. It's insane. It's incredibly well preserved, beautiful. It's a. It was a coastal town. Quarter million people live there. Massive. That's the library. There was like, I think over 200,000 volumes right there. So like literally the Apostle Paul literally studied in that library. Like, you know, it was pretty cool stuff.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Couple things I want to point out that were really cool and just like, so you can get your head around what's happening here. So in the Acts 19 text, Paul comes in, he starts preaching. It references the lecture hall of Tyrannis. Then a bunch of people get, get saved. You have the seven sons of Ska thing, which is kind of an awesome passage. The fight with the demons and there's nudity and violence and it's crazy. You know, all that happens, then all that happens. Ephesus, mass revival, they burn all their witchcraft scrolls. Dude named Demetrius the Silversmith. And I'm going to show this here in just a second. We actually know exactly, like I've stood there where he was when the events of Acts 19 happened. And then there are two verses, verse 29 and 31, that specifically reference the theater. Thereafter there's this big riot and like you can actually go to that theater. Like it's insane. So I just want to point a few things out here. First of all, this church is a big deal. This ends up being what Most people would say was the Apostle Paul's favorite church. Very interesting when you read the book of Ephesians, obviously the book of Ephesians was written to the church at. That's right. Is one of, if not the only epistle that contains no correction. It's strictly encouragement. You're awesome. Love you guys. Paul loved this church. He also stayed here longer than almost anywhere else. It was here and Corinthians or in Corinth are the two places he stays the longest. This church has such a massive outpouring of the Spirit here that you're going to see it as a result of the ministry. It's in Acts 19. As a result of the ministry Paul does in Acts 19, it says the word of God spreads to all of Asia. Interesting little Bible nerd fact. So when you get to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, letters of seven churches, most Bible scholars think all seven of those six of the other churches got planted directly out of the revival that takes place in Acts 19. That's like every commentary I read said the same thing. That's the conjecture. So massive revival, massive outpouring of the Spirit all goes back to this. In fact, there's evidence of how big the spiritual awakening was in Ephesus. Can you guys pull up that little. The Ephesian graffiti is essentially what it is. So this is when we think. I've referenced this real quick before, but there's a tie in here that we didn't get to. So when we think Ichthus, we think Jesus fish. The Jesus fish. Ichthus didn't come around for like a few hundred years. That was the original Ichthus. What's interesting is when you're walking through Ephesus today in modern day Turkey, you see that little wheel everywhere? It's like etched into the stone in front of anywhere there was an agora, which is a Greek word for marketplace. So, dude, here's what happened. All right, so all this stuff starts making sense. First of all, let's keep looking at this real quick. I just want to point this out. So the reason those are etched everywhere is because you read in Acts 19, we just preached it this weekend. So incredible outpouring of the Spirit. So many people get saved that it starts. It overturns the Ephesian economic system. So you've got the temple to Artemis is there. It was one of the seven wonders of the world. Absolutely enormous temple. So many people get saved that the people who are making these little silver idols, it's like messing with their business. Because now all these Christians aren't buying pagans idols. Right.

[B]

Because they're fake. They're saying they're not real.

[A]

Either there's nothing to that or it's demonic. So we're not buying it. So here's what happened is persecution breaks out upon the Christians in Ephesus. So when you walk around the agoras in the marketplaces, you see these ichthus. They created these ichthus as little secret markers that I'm a Christian. So if you're a Christian, this is what they were doing. It was a little symbol so other Christians would know the dude that owns this shop is a Christian. I want to help his family because they're experiencing persecution. So I'm going to buy from this dude. And Christians intentionally went out of their way to help other Christian businesses. News flash. Christians should still be doing that. I'll just say that like, we should still be doing that.

[B]

Shout out to Chick fil a.

[A]

That's right. Shout out to Chick Fil a. And we could listen to a million in n out. Are they.

[B]

They said John 3:16. Yeah, I'm a fan.

[A]

They're not as good as Whataburger, but are Whataburger?

[B]

I don't think so.

[C]

Are you serious?

[A]

I don't know. Don't mess this up.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah.

[C]

This might be another debate.

[A]

The theological case for in and out over Whataburger.

[B]

I have my convictions. That's fine, man. Different pod.

[A]

For me, it just boils down to like, in n out, California, Whataburger, Texas. No, let's keep going. Let's keep going. So. Okay, let's keep going. So what you got right here? So here's what's interesting. The original Ichthus. It is those five Greek letters over there. Let me see if I can remember them. Paul, help me out. If I get them wrong, that's Iota, Chi Theta, Hupsilon, Upsilon Sigma. Yep, Upsilon Sigma. And that stands for Iesus Christas, theu Huias soter, which means Jesus Christ, God's Son Savior. I don't have time to do this, but if you look close enough, what's really awesome about the original Ichthys is it's all those Greek letters combined make that circle. It's pretty awesome.

[C]

That is awesome.

[A]

It's pretty cool. Okay, so that was one thing, a couple other things, and then let's dive into, like, applying it to our lives as disciples. All right, so go ahead and show that. Can you show the picture of that? It looks like kind of a Field. So when you're standing, looking at that library that I was talking about earlier, that was like the main thoroughfare in Ephesus. If you. If you're looking, looking at the front of the library, this is immediately to the right of the library. That was the agora. Now if you look around, all around the outside, you can see these little stone things. These, those were ancient shops. It was almost like an ancient farmer's market. So this is where the agora is. Now, what's really interesting is archeologists have uncovered this thing where at least one of the synagogues that almost certainly the Apostle Paul was teaching in, it references it in Acts 19, was off the back of one of these little agora shops. So now all of a sudden it makes sense why Demetrius the Silversmith. So how did he even hear about all these people becoming Christians? Was because, like, literally his shop was probably like just a stone's throw away from this synagogue that was off the back of one of the other little farmer's market booths. And that's why it was affecting his business. So right here, when you Read in Acts 19 about Demetrius Silversmith throwing this big fit, he gets a big hissy fit, gets everybody all angry. That literally happened right there. Wow. Like that. That's exactly where that happened. Now, before we switch to anything else, you can see in the back of that picture the crane. Can you see that crane in the back? That is not original to.

[C]

Glad you.

[B]

That's why we brought Paul to confirm.

[C]

I was really confused for a while.

[A]

Paul, the feel of this. Am I right?

[C]

I kind of authoritatively conclude that that is new. That's not there when Paul was there. That's good for sure.

[A]

All right, so. So, but now go to the picture of the. This is it. Now, that crane that was in the back of that picture is right in front of this. This was the theater. So in verse verses 29 and 31 of Acts 19, it says, Demetrius throws the big fit. All these shop owners, they're like, hey, we're getting ready to, you know, probably kill Paul. They're having a mob. It says that. Then they go down to the theater. That's the theater is about. I'd say it's like two to three tenths of a mile away from the Agora on the same street. This is where they were. Now, dude, get this in your head. I mean, like, this is no joke. That thing seats 25,000 people. Yeah, 25,000 people. Anybody know how many. You guys know how much the aac, what's there Somebody. Somebody Google it. What's the American Airlines center seat? I think, is it 40k?

[C]

I'm not sure.

[A]

You look it up and I'll keep talking. So this is it. And then what I love about the Apostle Paul is he was just. He was that dude. So Paul sees thousands of people coming together in a mob that want to kill him. And Paul thinks, thank y' all for assembling a crowd for me to preach to.

[C]

This is so much easier.

[A]

You guys did the hardcore for me.

[B]

Like, he always does every opportunity.

[A]

Like, great.

[C]

This is awesome.

[A]

So, you know, we always want to start, you know, whatever. How many was this?

[B]

19,000? 20.

[A]

Okay, that's what I thought. Okay. I thought about this. So that theater literally seats more than the ac. The Mavs Stadium.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

All right. Just let that sink in. So this is where this mob is happening. So all this is Acts 19. All this, Acts 19. And then that's where Paul wants to preach. Now, obviously, we hit in the sermon. Let's hit this real quick. And then let's talk about Jewish people. End times Israel, Tucker Carlson, Ted Cruz. What an interesting week.

[C]

What a sentence full of different things.

[A]

What is.

[C]

We never thought we'd combine all those.

[A]

But that's why we got our tin foil hats. So what happens? What I do want to point out is obviously what we preach this weekend is how to be revival ready. But as disciples and as men and women of God, what we want to be is we want to be people who, like, we. At a personal level, we're constantly revival ready. And so you see three very specific things in this passage. You see an awakening to the word, you see an awakening to the supernatural, and you see an awakening to the reality of sin and repentance. And there's just no way to become conformed to the image of Jesus. Well, those three things. So that's the stuff that didn't make it in, and we can keep going.

[C]

I love it, though. That's beautiful. It reminds me, especially that last one of repentance. I think it was Martyn Lloyd Jones who said that repentance is the language of revival. That when revival is happening, part of what happens is I confront the living God.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And I'm convicted of my sin. And so part of that is just then, like, there is no revival without repentance. That's true of us completely, but true of me individually as well. But then the beautiful thing is, on the other side of repentance is the joy that when we repent, we're not met with a father, then says, how dare you? But he says, welcome home.

[A]

That's right. That's right. People do miss that. Like in Acts 2, you know, Peter preaches and it says they were cut to the heart for repentance. And he says, repent and be baptized. And then later he says, so that times of refreshing might come. Yes, and it's really interesting in, like, in my life as a disciple, for some reason before repentance, I'm always, like, dreading it. Like, oh, it's going to be embarrassing or painful, whatever. God's going to be like, get in the doghouse. And then every time there's confession or repentance of sin in my life on the back end, I'm like, it's like breathing fresh air again.

[B]

There's freedom.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Well, it's interesting because you mentioned Acts 2. Some people see Acts 19 as a mini Pentecost for Ephesus. And if you think about it, in Acts 2, there's 12 disciples of Jesus. They received the Holy Spirit and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. In Acts 19, same thing. Twelve disciples of John, they received the Holy Spirit and they begin speaking. So it says that. It literally mentions 12. Yes.

[A]

So I missed that.

[B]

It says, I believe.

[A]

Where were you during sermon prep?

[B]

I believe it says, like, there were around 12. That's what it says.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

But the number 12 is still mentioned, and so there's a little bit of a parallel there. Again, the Holy Spirit comes, and in both scenarios, they speak in tongues and they prophesy. And so again, it's like the.

[A]

The movement of the Spirit, verse seven. There were about 12 men in all.

[B]

So there's a very interesting nod there on behalf of Luke. And so Paul, can you corroborate that? I just want to make sure that I'm not. So again, the same Spirit that started church in Jerusalem is the same Spirit building the church among the Gentiles in Ephesus. And obviously, to make it practical, that's the same Spirit that wants to fill his people today.

[C]

So. Good.

[B]

Speaking of that, did you want to go deeper or you just want to jump in? We.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're.

[A]

How much time? We're.

[B]

We're.

[A]

22M.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's just hit this real quick. Let me say a couple things here so that we can, like, get practical and then we can dive into all the other stuff. Yeah. You know, one, like, our goal on the podcast is not just. It's not learning. It's living, though. It's Called live free, not learn free.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And so that's good. Like, if you just like. Like, what we care about is people becoming disciples, families getting healthy, churches being full of the spirit and power of Jesus. And so a couple things, you know, one, those three things that awaken to church are the exact same things that will awaken a Christian.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is you have to. You cannot be spiritually healthy and revitalized without a consistent and heavy presence of the Word in my life, seeking the supernatural leadership of the Spirit in my life, and then practicing the supernatural act of repentance in my life. So, man, there's a. There's a ton of stuff I got on all three of those.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

But those three. Let's do this for each of us. We're just gonna go free play. Pick the one thing. I'm taking over here. Let's each pick the one thing that. It's like, if we had time, this is the one thing out of those three things I would want to talk about real quick and talk about whatever you would say. And you can pick any word. Supernatural, repentance, and then round robin, and then let's move on.

[B]

Let's go.

[C]

I can go.

[A]

Paul, Go for it with the Word.

[C]

Something I like to say to people all the time is there's never been a Christian in history who's had a vibrant relationship with Jesus apart from a vibrant relationship with His Word.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

And we're not going to be the first.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

And so it's just. It's one of those things. There's never happened. We're not gonna be the first. So if that's been the pattern throughout history, and if we also see it in God's Word, we just take it to heart that at the end of the day, if I want a vibrant relationship with Jesus, I have to be in the Word that the Spirit inspired daily. As much as I can, I think.

[A]

Was it Martin Luther that described the. He called the Scriptures the swaddling clothes of Christ.

[C]

I think it was. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, you search them, because inside of them, you're gonna find Jesus and you're not gonna find him anywhere else.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

That's it. Man.

[C]

Man.

[B]

Isaiah 66. On that note, this is one of my favorite verses because it reminds me of the posture of my heart. It says, I, the Lord have spoken. I will bless those who have humble and contrite hearts, those who tremble at my Word. And I think, you know, we live in a culture today where, like, we're just so familiar with scripture. We have it on our phones. We, you know, we go to church, we see it on the screens. And, you know, sometimes it's easy to just kind of, oh, yeah, I know that verse. And, you know, maybe if you're reading, like. If you read Christian books and, like, you know, Bible verses are quoted, you kind of skip over those because you're kind of already familiar. But then God says, man, for the people that actually, like, tremble. And there's like a little bit of a. Like, oh, my goodness. Like, I can't believe I'm reading the words of God. And he is speaking to me, and there's a holy reverence, a healthy, beautiful fear of God. God says to that guy, I'm gonna bless.

[A]

Exactly right.

[B]

And, you know, and so for somebody, even, like, that's just kind of. I feel, like, distant from God, and I feel like, you know, where is God? I'm looking for the experience of the supernatural. I'm looking for the Holy Spirit. But it just seems like there's something maybe getting in the way. I would just ask, you know, how is your heart? Do you tremble at the word of God? Or do you see it lightly? Or do you see it as something just kind of. Oh, yeah, you know, I have a Bible here. And then for me, man, every time that I go back to a posture of, like, lord, I'm gonna open word right now. And I. I don't just want to have it become, like, another thing that I check on my list of. Of my day. I want you to really, in a supernatural way, speak to me. I just. I. I experience things that I. You know, those are critical moments for me that, again, whether it just kind of reminds me of my identity or. Or whatever, if I'm going through, like, a season of anxiety or a crazy season, man, I just. I feel grounded.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so, again, that's a. For me, it's the word that leads to the supernatural and then obviously, a life of repentance.

[C]

Good.

[A]

So I. Some. If you're watching on YouTube, you saw me just get up and get out of the screen for a second. If you want a really good book on the fear of God. This book, the Awe of God by John Bevere, is excellent. It's really, really excellent. It's a. It's a theological and practical treatment of what does it mean to fear God. Here's what's really interesting. Carlos. I'm so glad you pointed that out. Is like, this is a bit of a pet peeve I have where, like, Bible Teachers will. They'll get to a passage about the fear of God, and then they spend like four or five minutes in the sermon explaining how fear doesn't really mean fear. It just means respect, or it just means awe, or it just means. That's not what John says in this book. It just means this or that. I'm like, well, that's really interesting, because my Bible just says fear. Literally, what it means, it just says fear. It says, like, literally, you should be afraid of God. And that is the consistent reaction of anyone who draws near to God in the Scriptures. The Lord appears to Isaiah and he's literally like, freaking woe is me falls on his face. He's like, I'm a man of unclean lips, and I dwell among a people of unclean lips. My eyes have seen the king, the Lord of hosts. You get right here, like all throughout Acts. Acts, Acts four, I think Ananias and Sapphira. That's Acts five.

[C]

Yeah, five. I was literally just open to it. Great fear came upon the whole church.

[A]

Exactly. God, like, literally just. He kills two people. There's no other way to say it. God kills two people in response to them openly sinning against the apostles, lying to the Holy Spirit. And it says. Read it again. It says, great fear fell among all.

[C]

The great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard these things, and all the people that were there that got to see it happen.

[A]

And then as soon as that happens, then the word of God multiplies.

[C]

Exactly. After that, the many signs and wonders were regularly done. And it talks about. Then the word expand and multiplying.

[A]

You have that exact same thing right here in acts. In Acts 19. It's the exact same thing, is you have the seven sons of ska deal where a dude tries to. This is the whole point of that part of the passage is you can't fight this. You can't fight a supernatural battle in. In a. In a natural power. And he walks into a supernatural battle in natural power, and he gets his butt kicked. If you start a fight with your pants on and end a fight with your pants off, you lost. That's what happens to that guy. You lost. You lost. And it. It just says, says the next thing happened is fear of God fell among the people. So it's just like. And then we keep going. Yeah, the apostle John, like, Jesus best bud. He gets there in Revelation 1 and 2, and he sees Jesus for the first time. This is a guy. I always make a little joke about how he reclined on Jesus chest at the dinner table. I was like, man, I got a lot of friends. I got zero friends who are going to recline on my chest. Carlos, you are not going to recline on my chest.

[C]

Is that okay with you, Carlos?

[B]

I'm not going to do it.

[A]

They don't do that in El Salvador.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

They don't do it in Texas or Kentucky.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And, And, and, and he. That was him with Jesus. But when he sees Jesus for the first time, his. He literally just. I fell down as though dead. So it's kind of this principle of, hey, man, if. If I. If I look at the sun from 93 million miles away, it will burn out my retinas. And we think that we can just casually stroll into the presence of the living God. Like, no, no. Like, there's an appropriate fear that comes with knowing him.

[C]

Or Pastor Josh, if you remember this, because we're about the same age as when we were teenagers. There was these hats and shirts that went around called, Jesus is my homeboy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And reminds me of that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And it was this idea of, like, I think what they were trying to get across, they had Jesus is my friend, which.

[A]

True.

[C]

But the homeboy is holy. And even, like, to your point, like John, who had this incredible friendship with him, when he sees this, he hits the deck and says he fell down as if dead. That Jesus literally had to put his hand on him and say, get up. And so there's just. We do have to remember that if we're taking God lightly, we're probably going to have a light relationship with him.

[B]

Some people think that God the Father is the holy one and Jesus is the not holy one. It's funny, because John falls down as though dead. Peter also falls down before Jesus whenever he did the miracle with the. With the fish. Peter's like, man, I'm a sinful man. And he just fell down. And so same God.

[A]

And we keep going on this all day. There's that fear of God. Could be a whole podcast a lot of people miss. When Jesus does the. He calms the storm. And it's like, literally that whole passage is about fear of God because they see the wind and the waves like a little mini hurricane. And it's like, we're afraid. We're afraid. And then Jesus calms the storm, and it says. And then they were greatly afraid. They were more afra of Jesus in the boat when they realized how powerful he was than they were of the hurricane outside of the boat. Wow.

[C]

Because there is only one person in the Old Testament who walked on the waves and controlled the wind and the sea. And that was Yahweh, bro. And so they get this realization of like, oh, oh. And we could, like you said, we could go on this because it's a beautiful idea. I think when you understand the right fear of God, it actually amplifies the grace of God that we then have in repentance. Because there's a story in the Old Testament where people so in flippantly puts their hand out on the ark and he struck dead, same thing, great fear, awe. Because he had taken the glory of God lightly. So this idea, like in the Old Spirit, you couldn't touch holy things or else you would fall dead. But that's, I love going back to revelation is that there's John, he's fallen down as if dead because he's actually seeing Jesus rightly. And then Jesus, Yahweh in the flesh touches him.

[A]

That's right, man.

[C]

And instead of killing him, it actually he says, get up. I am the living one. I was dead and I'm now alive. So if anything, the fear of God, when you do it rightly amplifies the grace of God.

[B]

So one more thing, you know, you will not experience revival in isolation. One of the reasons I genuinely love, you know, to do what we do here, that we just open the word of God and just go back and forth is because that's where you get to. That's where you grow. That's where you get to experience. I wanted to, you know, for somebody that's maybe thinking, man, I don't know, I'm not sure I'm joining in the pod. Maybe I'm joining for a little bit and you know, you guys talk about groups. I don't know. I actually don't know what my next step is. I don't know what. I would love to maybe grab the show notes and join a group. I just know who to meet, man. We in just a couple weeks here at Lake Point, we're actually launching Rooted. And Rooted is a 10 week discipleship experience where you basically, especially if you're not in a group, this is literally designed for you, for you to jump in a group of people just like you, brand new, and you go through the seven rhythms of being a disciple according to the books. Yeah.

[A]

By the way, there's a whole week on like how to read the Bible. That's amazing. Like Jan and I are leading a rooted group. Yeah, we just went through it. There's a whole week actually There may be two weeks on how to read the Bible and study the Bible is amazing. It's absolutely amazing.

[B]

That's it. And so we want to help you. If that's you text Rooted to 20411 or drop a comment in the chat. And again, our team is here to help you. And so, again, revival does not happen in isolation. You need to be surrounded by people that love Jesus as well.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

I love that, by the way. We get excited about talking about this. It seems to me like it's a. It's a. It's a good thing. But now it's time to.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

Hold on.

[A]

We got our tinfoil hats on.

[B]

Let me see. Okay. Shout out to the movie science. That freaked me out as a kid. Were you.

[A]

Did you.

[B]

Did it scare you this?

[C]

It scared me when they showed it, bro.

[B]

I gave up on scary movies after that movie.

[A]

Was it a demon? Is the. Is that we talked about this? Was the alien a demon? Is it supposed to be a demon? You don't think so?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

He's a priest. All the things I need to rewatch this, you need to rewatch. I have read that it was supposed to be a nod to the demonic.

[C]

If it was, they did a good job because that was scary. I remember watching that. I was living in Ohio at the time where my house was. You had to drive through farmland, and so the moon was out and it was bright. And there's a scene where you see one kind of just a silhouette on top of a house on a farm. And it freaked me out. Nearly got in a wreck just because I was looking off and scared to death.

[B]

Do you think it was a demon?

[A]

No, no, no, but I've read it. No, but I've read it.

[B]

Okay, well, speaking of demons.

[D]

What?

[A]

Actually, what?

[B]

No, just kidding. Not speaking of demons. Speaking of what?

[A]

How are you gonna do this? Because now it's like, whatever you say. Let me do the transition.

[B]

Let me do the transition. Not speaking of demons. Josh, could you please go ahead.

[A]

Let me do the transition. The reason we have tinfoil hats on is because we're going to talk about end times. Big theological word, eschatology, which comes from eschaton. Greek word meaning last.

[C]

Last or final.

[A]

Last or final. And ology, meaning study of.

[C]

Study of our words about.

[A]

Study of the. Oh, look at the theolog.

[B]

If I have any questions about the etymology of a word, I just have to ask Paul.

[A]

It's like a human chatgpt. All right, so we're going to talk about end times, return of Christ, Israel. Are things like a war with Iran and Israel. Is that a sign, you know, of the end times of Christ's return? And anytime I talk about this stuff, I feel like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist. But we're not because we got Bibles in our hands. So we just thought we would embrace it. Let's go now. Here's where this comes from. And by the way, we're gonna get, like, super nerdy. Like, I mean, like super nerdy here for a second. We're gonna talk about different views of the end times. Let me, let me preface this and tell them where we're gone, and then we're gonna go there. Can you guys go ahead and queue up that Tucker Ted Cruz clip that sparked all this? Okay, so here's, here's, we're gonna answer questions like this in the next few minutes. It all started with me being, I was sitting on a beach while Jana was in a hammock reading a book. And I was just, I'm a news junkie. So I see this little clip of Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson debating does America have a theological obligation to support the nation state of Israel? And I got a million thoughts running through my head while watching it. So I start texting all these guys. So we're going to answer questions like this after we watch this clip. Does the church replace Israel in the New Covenant, a theological position called supersessionism, or a smear term called replacement theology? Sometimes people will do that. Does God still have a special affection for the Jewish people, or is that, have they been replaced by the people of faith and the church in the New Testament? Are Jewish people who believe the Old Testament but reject Jesus as Messiah saved? Should we want to stay on the side of Israel? Like, in other words, does America have a theological or moral obligation to stay on the side of the nation state of Israel? Does the promise from Genesis that God will bless those who bless you when he speaks to Abraham and his offspring? That's. I'm going to just highlight that word. That's an important word. And his offspring singular. Does that promise, like, still in effect today? All right, so we're going to. And all that ties into different views of the end times. So let's begin. Here's the clip that sparked all this off. Well, let's. And we may ask you to pause at some point, but go ahead.

[D]

Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be Cursed.

[A]

Pause. Let me go ahead and read it. So he's this is I'm just going to read the passage he's referring to, Genesis 12. It says this beautiful passage. The Lord, this is Abrahamic covenant is what this chapter is referred to. The Lord had said to Abraham, abram, go from your country, your people, and your father's household to the land. I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you. I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you, I will curse. And all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you. That's what he's quoting. Let's keep going.

[D]

My perspective I want to be on the blessing side of things, of those who bless the government of Israel. Those who bless Israel is what it says, doesn't say the government of it says the nation of Israel.

[A]

Pause. Okay, now that's important. Okay, so let's talk about this for a second there. I I do think there is a distinction between the ethnic people, the Jewish people, and the government of Israel. So for instance, this now, Paul, you can disagree with me or add context here. In Genesis 12, when God gives this promise, he's giving the promise to Abraham and his offspring. And we'll get more into that in a second. So I do think there's a distinction between the people Distinction, but overlap. I'll just say that distinction, but overlap, almost like a Venn diagram, concentric. Not concentric, but over overlapping circles, that there's a distinction between the nation state or the government of Israel and the people. Biblical Israel, Yes. Agree. Disagree. Additional Comments I would broadly agree.

[C]

Maybe to help people think of if I say Rome, I could be referring to the city, but sometimes people are referring to it as the head of the Catholic Church, Rome has said, and stuff like that. So I can use the same word but can mean different things. In Scripture. For sure, Israel is sometimes used as an actual state with a king with borders. But even then, once that kingdom splits in two, there's a northern part, which is Israel, and a southern part, which is Judah. So Israel could apply to all the land, and it can apply just to a small part, depending on what part of the Bible you're reading. Then you get to Romans 9, which we may even get to here in a bit. And Paul says that not all Israel is Israel. He can't be talking about the kingdom, because at that time there is no kingdom. He seems to be talking more about people of Jewish descent, but even then he uses the word in two different ways. He said, just because you're Jewish descent doesn't mean you're actually Israel. So that's part of what makes the conversation tough and why it gets even heated right here is because we could be saying the same word but have different meanings. Because the Bible can use the same word in different ways depending on the context.

[A]

Exactly. Now what I some context I would add to that is in the same way, like that promise does not always mean that people are morally obligated to agree with whatever is the government of Israel. So for instance, throughout the Old Testament you have wicked rulers of Israel. People appropriately should have and did relate to, for instance, the administration of Ahab and Jezebel differently than they related to the administration of Josiah, a righteous king. So this promise clearly promises clearly does not always mean you have to support any decision by the governing authority of the nation State of Israel 100%.

[C]

I think some people get trapped on there for some reason. Like they have to agree then with everything. And to your point, like if we were in the Old Testament times, would that mean that we have to agree when they were practicing idolatry and they were sacrificing their children to pagan demons? No, we would not, of course not. Or even go back to the founding of the modern state of Israel. A lot of people don't know that. Some, not all, but some of the founders of it were socialists and were atheists, if at best acknowledged.

[A]

You're talking about 1948. Yeah, 1948, reestablish the nation of Israel.

[C]

And so I can say I support them being re established at times. Doesn't mean I have to then support if they have a socialistic policy that I disagree with. And so that's a key distinction, is that I can broadly support, but it doesn't mean I have to rubber stamp every single decision I make.

[A]

Now I'm going to go ahead and cut to the chase and if you guys disagree, you can say it. I would also say that sometimes there are theological reasons. Like here's a question, are you supporting Israel for theological reasons or geopolitical reasons or both? So I'll just cut to the chase. Like I was a huge fan personally. I was a fan of knocking out Iranian nuclear facilities. Like, yep, check mark. That's stinking awesome. I wish they had done it harder. Whatever, you know, I'm all in. And from what I understand and read, when the military, the Israeli military took out some of the Iranian officials that were trying to acquire nuclear powers, I was like, that's great big fan. But word debating, is there a theological prerogative?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

To always support them.

[C]

And I think it's important, again to say that now because when people wrestling with this, they think, oh, you have to always land in the same spot for the same reasons. Whereas, for example, when I'm watching that video of Ted Cruz, I'll put my cards on the table and say I agree with him in his foreign policy. I'm like you. I'm like, to me, and if the bombs that we dropped apparently maybe didn't the job completely, we should drop 20 more if we need to, to be able to finally destroy their nuclear capabilities. But I would disagree with Ted Cruz and how he got there. It's like, right there.

[A]

As far as taking a theological route.

[C]

Taking the theological route. It's like, right there. I just think that shows to you, is that I can disagree how he got there theologically, but we can still end up in the same place practically. And so there might be some nuances here that, hey, there's only two ways of coming at this. I'm like, no, there can be some nuances and some things that we have to parse out.

[B]

So what you're saying is you agree with what he's doing, you disagree with the reasoning behind why he's doing it.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay, interesting. We'll see. I may agree or disagree with you. Let's keep going. By the way, I'm going to take this off, so let's keep going on this clip.

[D]

So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that. Where is that? I can find it to you. I don't have the, the Scripture off.

[A]

The tip of mine.

[D]

You pull out the phone and you.

[B]

I mean, he knows exactly what he's doing. Exactly what he's doing.

[D]

So you're quoting a Bible phrase. You don't have context for it. You don't know where in the Bible it is. But that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even mean?

[A]

My younger brother used to do that to me.

[D]

I'm a Christian. I want to know what you're talking about. Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically, we are commanded to support Israel. But number two, hold on, hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology. And I am a Christian and I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.

[A]

Pause. I do want to say this. Here's what I like. I like that leaders of our nation are wrestling with theological implications for how the word of God that is true and should be treated as true. Even in geopolitical decisions, the word of God should be treated as true. You treat true things as true. I love that this discussion's happening, but.

[B]

Even to what Paul said, even the word support Israel, like what does that mean? That could mean so many different things depending on where you take it from a government perspective or from, you know, again, from a. Praying for the country.

[C]

Like, yeah, no, all right, you're smiling, you're waiting for a response.

[D]

All right, we are commanded to support Israel and we're. What does that mean? We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed. But what. Hold on. Define Israel.

[A]

This is important.

[D]

Are you kidding? This is a majority Christian country. Define Israel. Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked like 49 questions about. So that's what Genesis. That's what God is talking about, the nation of Israel. Yes. And he's. So does that the current borders, the current leadership. He's talking about the political entity called Israel.

[A]

Pause. And again, we keep going back to this, but that's the question. Is there a distinction between, like Al Mohler says, by the way, we're going to put this in the show notes. There's a 20 minute clip from Al Mohler, president of Southern Seminary, dissecting this. He does an unbelievable job. If this is interesting to you, you should go listen to it. It's in the show notes. But Mohler points out there's a difference between. I think he uses national Israel and biblical Israel.

[B]

Yeah, he said, I think he said biblical Israel or the state of Israel?

[A]

The state of Israel. Okay. And what he points out, and Paul pointed this out earlier. Now again, I, and I'm going to talk about this in a second. I am of the belief that the promise of God in Genesis 12, I will bless those who bless you and those who curse you shall be cursed. I think that's still in effect. I think that at least in some way and we can talk about how or how not it actually still applies to the descendants of Abraham, the Jewish people. I do think in some way it still does. But that's the question. Is there a distinction between biblical Israel and the government of Israel? Paul pointed this out earlier when Israel was formed as modern day Israel was formed in the nation 1948. A lot of those leaders were secular, godless, socialist Marxists even.

[C]

Let's just say if Paul were writing Romans 9, 11 and he time traveled a day he would rewrite it again of the idea of, hey, they're still rejecting the Messiah. My heart longs for them. I want them to come to know Jesus. And I'm not telling using that as a slam against Jewish people or against the modern state of Israel. It's really just to say that, hey, a lot of them are actually in the same place where they are still rejecting Jesus. And in many cases, he'd actually say, man, you've gone even further away in that many of you don't even believe in God at all.

[A]

There you go, let's keep going.

[D]

He's talking about the nation of Israel. You had nations exist. And he's discussing a nation. A nation was the people of Israel is the nation. They're the descendants of Abraham. Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now? Yes, yes, it is. And by the way, it's not run by Benjamin Netanyahu as a dictator. It's a democratic country that elected. He's the prime minister. Right.

[A]

But just, just like, all right, you.

[C]

Know, America, every time I watch that.

[A]

I'm just like, okay, let's start here and then we can zoom out and we can talk about eschatological positions. So let's just start right here. Paul, Carlos, if you want to chime in, however you want to do it. So. So the question in front of us is, is the promise, I will bless those who bless you, and those who curse you shall be cursed. Is that promise still in effect, who does it apply to?

[B]

Well, and to clarify your question, still in effect, when you say to modern nations, the question is to the modern. Because there's a distinction there. Because somebody would say, well, does it apply to the ethnic people, ethnically Jewish people, or does it apply to modern ancients? Yeah, which one are you asking?

[A]

All of the above.

[B]

All the above.

[A]

You just talk about it. Paul, you start.

[B]

Yeah, Paul, probably start.

[A]

What's your math here? What's your theological math? And then we'll keep talking.

[C]

I think it's a multi layered answer and I'll try to keep it short. Before I give you the specific answer, I want to read from Galatians 3. 29. It says, Then you are Abram's offspring, Abraham's offspring. And if I were to ask you, who do you think that's talking about? If you just were hearing me say that out of context, you'd think, oh, obviously to Jewish people. But actually then if you back up, it says, if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's Offspring, heirs, according to promise. And so I would actually say that while I do not believe the church in any way replaces Israel, what I do believe is that the church is now the recipient of that promise to Abraham, that now those who are children of Abraham are those who have faith, but not just faith in general and a God in general, but a faith specifically in Jesus, that your relationship with God is determined by your relationship with Jesus. And so on the one hand, I would actually say that yes, this promise does to apply, but I would actually say it applies in part to the church, that this is now expanded. And that's why I don't like to say replace. I like to say expanded not to just to Jewish people, but also to believers in Jesus, to the church. And so you could say those who bless the church will be blessed and those who curse the church will be cursed. So that's one thing even going backing up before that. What you see oftentimes in the New Testament, although it's not with this exact language, is that Jesus is the truth, true Israel, that he fulfilled everything that actually Old Testament Israel could not even like a cool little detail that some people miss. When Jesus is baptized, he goes through the waters and then spends 40 days in the wilderness being tested. He's tested three times. If you look up those references, they're from the Old Testament, where the people were tested. So think about it. He goes through the water and he's tested three times. Well, if you go to the Old Testament, the people of Israel go through the water of the Red Sea. They're tested and they fail repeatedly. And then they are in the wilderness for how long? For 40 years. So part of what that passage is trying to say is that Jesus is the true Israel, the fulfillment of it, where everywhere they failed, he succeeded. And so I would say part of this is man, we are called to bless Jesus. But then finally, for me, I would not be a person who just leaves it there personally, and I'd love to hear you weigh on this too, is. Well, I would actually start with Jesus, and then I would go to the church. I would say that, man, we are called to bless. I would actually say all people, including, and I would say specifically where I commit this, the Jewish people, we should have a special heart for them. And since much of the state of modern Israel contains many Jewish people, I think 46% of the world's Jewish people live in modern Israel.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

46%?

[A]

I didn't know that.

[C]

So I would say we should bless all people, which, by the way, Also.

[B]

Means that the other 64% are ethnically non Jewish living in Israel.

[C]

They're Jewish, they're just.

[A]

He's speaking about ethnic Jews.

[C]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

So the other percentage is they're ethnically not Jewish.

[A]

No, no, they are ethnically Jewish, but they're living in other nations.

[B]

Besides, you're not talking about the population of the country. Got it.

[C]

So two things. Does it still apply? Yes, I would say it applies to our relationship with Jesus. Applies to, I would say the church, and I would argue it applies to all nations, including modern Israel. And then I will say because of God's relationship with the Jewish people, there is a special thing. Like even to justify it, even to back it up, I'd love to hear what you have to say. In Romans 9, Paul is in anguish because his Jewish brothers and sister have rejected Jesus Messiah in mass at least. And he says, man, to them belong the covenants, the promises, all these things. And he even goes as far as says, I would be cut off from Christ if it meant them coming to Christ.

[A]

He literally is like, I would give up my seat in heaven if they could take it.

[C]

Yes. And so I would almost view it that way, where I think we're called to bless nations from every world. But I do think we should recognize, man, there should be a special place in our heart for the Jewish people. And yes, for the nation of Israel where there is a concentration of those people in one place. That's a very nuanced answer, but that's how I would approach it.

[B]

So let me clarify that if that's okay. So back to the original question. Does the promise of those who bless you, I will bless you apply to ethnically Jewish people? Sounds like you're saying.

[C]

Yes, yes, I would say not exclusively to them. And I would then layer to say I'm not going to say that all the Jewish people are the exact same as the modern state of Israel.

[B]

Which means that does the promise, the question does the promise those who bless you, I will bless apply to modern nations? Sounds like you're saying, no.

[A]

I don't think that's what he said. I think he's saying does it immediately like is what he's saying is that Israel is not coterminous with the modern nation of Israel. So when the Bible talks about Israel or Abraham's offspring, that's not coterminous, that is not a one to one equivalent with the modern day nation state of Israel. But what he's saying is there is this obviously significant overlap Because a massive A, it's the same land mass.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In large part B, there's a massive concentration of those ethnic people in that spot.

[B]

So I know.

[C]

Yes. And that's how, again, it's a nuanced answer, but that's how the answer is good.

[B]

And so I know you know this, but I'm also trying to make it for. As clear as possible for people asking, does that mean then that the Genesis promise mean that I. If the person's asking, does that mean that I need to bless the nation of Israel today? Sounds like, like I said, it sounds like you're saying no, like, sorry, the political state of Israel today, this to.

[C]

Me even like when you were saying earlier, you asked the question, what does it mean to support? I even said, what do we mean by blessing? Does that mean I want to me to bless someone means I want what's best for them and I want good for them and to wish good on them. And so for me, like with both the modern state of Israel, because I would distinguish, just to make clear, between the modern state of Israel and biblical Israel in the Old Testament and the New is, I would say, man, I want the best for them, of course. And that includes, I want them to come to know Jesus. I do want peace and prosperity. I want justice to be done there in that whole region. And I would also say I want that for every nation in the world. That doesn't mean that wars don't have to happen, that things don't have to be done to secure peace and the world following where we live in. But yeah, yeah, it.

[B]

Well, hey guys, One of the reasons we are intentional in creating this kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the word of God and honestly just grow together as followers of Jesus to live, live free in Christ. And so for this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined the group, whether in person or online, I want to challenge you to test drive one. And so to do that, just text the word group to 20411 or go to Lake Point Church slide groups. Because listen, you're not one podcast away, one habit away, one decision away, one book away, one sermon away. Listen, you are one relationship away to experience Freedom in Christ, in community. And now let's get back to the podcast.

[A]

I'll answer the same question and I'm going to answer it in almost the same way, but I do just want to. So, okay, you've got the Genesis 12 promise. And obviously I'll bless those who bless you. Whoever curse you, I'll curse. That's where God tells Abraham he's going to make of him a great nation. A lot of offspring. That's the key word is offspring. And it's singular. That's really important that it's singular. Now we're asking the question, okay, that's Old Covenant in the New Covenant, like big theological words, how much continuity is there between the Old Covenant and New Covenant? And how much discontinuity is there between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? To super Bible nerd out, you really start. You're really talking about. There are two primary ways to read the storyline of the Bible. Covenant theologians and dispensational theology. And dispensational theology tends to see a radical discontinuity between Old Covenant and New Covenant. Covenant theology tends to see a radical continuity between the Old Covenant and New Covenant. That's a super Bible nerd thing.

[C]

Can I jump in real where this would help here, just for people that are listening in, is that a dispensationalist then would say all of the promises made to ethnic Israel and to the nation of Israel have to be literally fulfilled. And so they would say, yes, that also does for sure take place in the church and that God has planned for the church. But they would also say, hey, it has to be fulfilled in part. Then it has to have a nation state. They have to get the land back. They have to have the temple.

[A]

You got to build a temple. Got to do the five heifers.

[C]

Just wanted to fill that in real fast.

[B]

Keep going literal king in charge.

[A]

I don't think that's a pin switch.

[C]

Ones you talk to.

[A]

Yeah, okay. That's a lot of. Okay, let me go back to this. And then we're going to get into. Because here's what a lot of people don't understand. We're alluding to this. It's really somebody. It's really somebody's view of the end times. Their eschatological view. Their view of the end times shapes how they think we should relate to Israel now. So that's what we're going to get to here in a second. Let me answer this. The. The thing we were talking about. Bless those who bless you so you got that in Genesis 12. I'm going to read the whole Galatians passage. So this is Galatians 3:16. And it helps us as New Testament Christians know how we should think, who are the people of God now? So it says this. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. This is Paul in Galatians 3. Scripture does not say and to seeds. Some of your Bible translations will use the word offspring and offsprings. Paul's pointing out, no, the promise was. Was singular to one specific offspring of Abraham, meaning many people. But it says, and to your seed, meaning one person. So Paul's saying that promise was specifically about one offspring of Abraham. Now, as Christians, you're probably going, I bet I know who that one offspring was. Who is Christ? There's the. The kicker. Now skip down a couple verses. So in Christ Jesus, you are all children of God through faith. So he's saying everyone that exercises faith in the promises of God, specifically centered on the person and work of Jesus, all of those people are now the people and children of God. Verse 27. Let's keep going. For all of you who were baptized into Christ Jesus have clothed yourselves with Christ. This goes back to what? This. This Paul. Not that Paul. What Paul Cunningham said is Jesus in one sense is the Israel of God. Charles Spurgeon used to love to say that Jesus is the Israel of God. And then what Paul is saying is Jesus was the Israel of God. And then because of your faith, you are in Christ. That's the language. So now you're part of that. All right, so you have closed yourself with Christ.

[B]

Now would you say, Josh, that in one sense, what are you. What you're saying is that the church is the new Israel in one sense.

[A]

Well, hang on, hang on. Let's keep going. Verse 28. That's when he goes straight to this. Because there's. That's the question. All right, so does that mean that you know. So is it Jews, gentile, you know, what's the distinction? Well, this is the very next verse. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you Bo. This is huge. Listen close. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. So what he's saying is, with respect to the promise of God for salvation, there is not a distinction between an ethnically Jewish person and an ethnically gentile person, because all of you are in Christ. All right, now, did you notice he said it Says heirs according to the promise. It's specifically referring back to the promises God gave Abraham in Genesis 12 and 15 in the Abrahamic covenant. So here's what I take Paul to mean. The Apostle Paul, not Paul Cunningham. What I think that means is that when God gives the promise to Abraham and his offspring singular in Genesis 12, those who bless you shall be blessed, and those who curse you shall be cursed. And then now Galatians 3 is saying, we are the offspring of Abraham according to the promise because we're in Christ. Here's what I think that means. I think that means that now that promise applies primarily to New Testament Christians, people of faith in Jesus. But I would also be quick to add, I don't think there's any way to read Romans 11, the end of Romans 11, and not come to the conclusion that God still has a special plan for the future of ethnically Jewish people to have a radical revival. Like, I think one of the signs of the end is going to be tons of Jewish people get saved. Like tons of them. So much so that Romans 11 says, it uses the language, all Israel shall be saved. I take that to mean so many Jewish people will come to faith in Jesus that in a generalized sense people will be going like, dude, it seems like every Israelite you meet is a Christian now.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

I think that's so. So to answer the question, I will bless those who bless you, those who curse you. I shall. I shall. You shall curse. I will curse. I think that applies both to modern day Christians and to the. To ethnically Jewish people.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now I agree.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I was ready to give another scripture from Ephesians 2, but we probably go.

[A]

Yeah, let's go. Let's be on. So, Paul, can you. Let's. Again, we're super Bible nerding out. Yeah. Can you. Can you sketch really briefly the. And I know this is an impossible task because usually like literally entire volumes are written on this. And I'm asking you to do it in like three minutes. Can you briefly sketch. Do you want to do the three main eschatological positions or four main.

[C]

Let me do the three main. And then really the third one is like an ab.

[A]

Let's. So he's. What Paul's going to do is he's going to sketch the three primary views of the end times that have been prominent in church history and then briefly talk about how each of them affects somebody's view of our relationship to Israel.

[C]

And before I jump in, I think where this helps is A lot of times when we're having this conversation, even you saw some of the videos, there's this thought is, oh, there is simply the Christian view of this. When in reality there's been many views throughout history. And so we have to be really careful, say, nope, there's only one view you can have. You can have a view that you're convinced of and passionate about. You just have to be little careful to say there is only one particular way to see it. So go ahead.

[A]

Can I give one more caveat before I'm going to give a couple more caveats? Let's give some caveats to what you just said. So when Paul starts to sketch these, here's what's really important is theologians have historically, it's called theological triage. Theologians have historically divided doctrines into three categories. And depending on where a doctrine is positioned in the theological triage, depends on how much conflict there should be around that doctrine. So for instance, there's first I'm going to do this very briefly and then it's your turn.

[C]

This is actually what I was about to go to.

[B]

So.

[A]

Perfect, Good, good. So you got first year issues, second tier issues, third tier issues, first tier issues. This is why the apostle Paul, in 1st Corinthians 15, he says, for I delivered to you as of first importance. And then he says the gospel, that Christ died in accordance with the scriptures that he was raised. Paul is pointing out that all doctrines are equally true, but not all doctrines are equally important, which means not all doctrines are equally worth dividing over. First tier issues are issues where it's more important to be right than to be together. There are some doctrines that it's worth splitting a church over where if we.

[C]

Disagree, you and I have different faith. It's not that we shouldn't be a part of different church. We have a different faith.

[A]

On a first tier issue.

[C]

On a first tier issue, if you.

[A]

Disagree with somebody else on a first tier issue, honestly, we're talking about the difference between Christianity and a cult.

[C]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Basically Trinity salvation. Yeah. So the nature of God. So the Trinity has historically been viewed as a first year issue, but then really after that you go on salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. So those are the ones. If you disagree on any of those things. It's not a debate among brothers now. It's like, hey bro, you're in a cult and I'm a Christian. All right, so there are some doctrines that's worth dividing over. Those are first two issues. Secondary issues are issues where it's more important to be together than to be right. But it might be uncomfortable.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So these are issues where it's like gender roles. You know, there's a mode of baptism, like, dude, we're all on Team Jesus. But honestly, if you disagree with me on mode of baptism and you think that it's morally and theologically wrong that we practice at Lake Point, something's called credo baptism. That's baptism. Post faith in Jesus. And you believe in pedobaptism, that's baptizing babies. That's part of covenant theology, super nerd stuff. Stuff. It's going to be uncomfortable because you're going to watch us baptize 2,000 people every year.

[B]

Or more.

[A]

Or more.

[C]

And it doesn't mean we're not a part of the same faith. It just means that we're going to see these things very differently.

[A]

Totally. By the way, this secondary issues, that's where denominations come from.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

By the way, some people, you hear Christians hate on the fact that there are so many different denominations. I actually think that's a healthy thing. What those denominations crystallized around distinctions, differences among second tier issues. And actually their purpose is not disunity. Their purpose is ability to maintain unity among second tier doctrine distinctions. So these are issues where it's more important to be together than to be right. But it might be uncomfortable. Now. Third tier issues are issues where it's more important to be together than to be right. And it should not be uncomfortable.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

These are issues like, I'll be honest, like age of the earth, like I'll give away. I'll tip my cards here. Eileen Young, Earth Creationist. I'm that guy, you know, the simpleton. That's where I lean. It's not worth dividing a church over. It's like the New Testament warns against people who have an unhealthy craving for controversy. It says warn a divisive person once and then again and have nothing to do with them. So. And by the way, this is germane to this conversation. Eschatological views have almost always been viewed as third tier issues. Like, dude, Paul's going to explain what this means here in 30 seconds. But if at Lake Point you got two people in a life group and one guy is a historic premill guy and another guy is Amil and another guy has a post mill view, like we can, you know, have a drink and debate it with a Bible open. And then we should be like, all right, man, that's cool. Let's go reach a Big lost city together and disciple a bunch of families and we're all on the same team.

[C]

That's exactly where I was going to go. It's like really, we can have spirited discussion, sometimes even debate, but we should never have division or distraction. Division from each other, Distraction. What God has called us to do. And even like I like to even say, hey, in terms of. Before we get to some of the differences, what have faithful Jesus loving Bible believing Christians throughout history held to, we all hold to? That Jesus is going to return, that there's going to be a resurrection of the dead, a final judgment, there's going to be a new heavens and new earth and that sin, Satan and death are going to be finally and fully defeated. All Christians throughout history agree on those things. And when you look scripturally those should lead us to live lives marked by hope for the future, godliness in the present and then urgency to see the gospel come to those who if Jesus returned now, it would not go well for them. But where those same faithful Bible believing Christians have disagreed is usually on the sequence of those events I just mentioned and the timing of them. So three, three big camps. And really it all comes down to Revelation 20, what's often referred to as the millennium. The idea of a thousand year reign of Christ. An amillenn would be a person who says that revelation in general and specifically 20, it's more symbolic that Christ is reigning right now in heaven and that as the gospel is going out there's going to be some good things that happen in this world, but there's also going to be some bad things. So a little bit mixture at the very end. There's going to be a pretty big tribulation and a trying time but then Jesus will return. And so Jesus return, resurrection of the dead, final judgment, all those will happen basically at the same time. That there won't be a large gap between those postmillennialists would be a second view. I actually sometimes say post Maloneists for my Gen Z people out there just because I'm not really good at saying these phrases even though I love discussing them. And so I'm not even say postmills and on mills and so on and so forth. So postmills are actually very similar to on mills except whereas they would. Whereas an amill would say ah, it's going to be a mixed bag. A postmill would say actually as the gospel goes forth more people come to know Jesus. Cultures and societies will be transformed. So they would point to. We mentioned earlier in Ephesus that it's going to have a real world impact. Societies and cultures will be transformed and eventually will go into a golden era. At the end of that, it could be a thousand years. But a lot of times they see it more symbolically. It could be 500, could be 2,000 years. Eventually, Christ will return post millennium. So after that millennium, after that golden age, Christ return.

[A]

So they're saying the millennium is now.

[C]

It could be. Some would say it's right now. Some would say it's not really going to start until we reach that golden era where the gospel is gone throughout. So even there, by the way, is probably another good caveat. As we're saying these things, I might say something about a view and you're in that view and you think, well, I don't believe that. And I get it. We have to. To paint with big, broad brush strokes here, finally is primo. So if post mill, by the way.

[A]

Can I just say this?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think the most fun one to believe would be post mill.

[C]

I think we almost switched to it as I was prepping.

[A]

I was like, oh, there's some good arguments.

[B]

Isn't that the minority view, though?

[C]

It is the minority now, but at one point it wasn't. And if we can keep that going, I can make up. Because historically, sorry, like the last hundred years, the reason why it's faded out is because, you know, things like the Great Depression, World war, World War II.

[A]

The Vietnam War, it doesn't seem like we're always winning.

[C]

No, it does not. But I was actually listening to a postmark of the position. I was like, ooh, I'm really. Because a lot of. I actually line up with a lot of their other interpretations of revelation is that they would say, well, listen, but if you look at society in general, the places where the gospel has gone forth, the culture has been radically transformed.

[A]

And they're right, by the way.

[C]

And they're right.

[A]

They're right.

[B]

Such as?

[C]

I mean, oh, in Europe, I mean, you're talking about pretty pre Christianity imposed. It's rat. And all the things, by the way, even if you're not a Christian today, all the things that you hold dear, equality, freedom, those were not values before the human rights and human rights. It's like man atheists are barring values that they really have no right to because they have no belief frame that can give it to them. Or we're about to say, pastor Carlos.

[A]

There'S an old man, John Piper tossed it in a sermon one time. Have you seen the thing about where sociologists looked at the development of the world. And they were like, these were non Christian sociologists. They were like, man. The number one corollary between the nations that have the most prosperity is the presence of conversionary Protestant missionaries. And if you basically overlay a lap of a map, a map of the world where the most development has taken place and the most human flourishing has taken place, it's the exact same map is where Christianity has spread the most. They're the exact same map.

[C]

And it doesn't mean we've always gotten everything right because we're following people. But to your thing, it's hard to argue against. And so I'll speed this up so we can get to our last group that has two offshoots is that people would say, well, man, look at the world. Now, a post millennialist would say, well, people who are saying that usually aren't a part of the world. But hey, the gospel is spreading like crazy in the global South. Societies are being transformed. And here's the analogy I would give is that if you picked a stock that had risen like, let's say, say 500% over the last 10 years, that's a pretty incredible return. But if you zoomed in on 2020, there'd be a dip. And so you're like, oh, this stock is really. It's going bad.

[B]

Bitcoin.

[A]

Huh? Bitcoin.

[C]

Yeah, bitcoin. Oh, there's plenty that I've looked at in the past few months. I'm like, why didn't I? Because then if you zoom out, you see it's rebounded and gone even higher. So post millennials would say, yeah, it's not going well over the last hundred years. But they would also say, hey, even like when you say the tide is turning, they'd say, yes, it is. Is where I going out of the dip and it's going back up. All right. Just got to give some love to my post millennial friends. They are the minority and they get picked on a lot. So then you have pre millennial.

[A]

Let me just say they do their fair share of picking, too. Let's keep going.

[C]

I wasn't going to say that. We're not going to drop names the same people were thinking.

[B]

I wish you would.

[C]

By the way, had a field day with this video we watched. I was eating popcorn as well when I was watching. I don't know if I can call it X. I'll call it Twitter still. But anyways, don't sue me, Elon. Anyways, going back to my. Let me on my last group. So so pre millennials, they believe that Jesus is returning before the millennium. They would have a little bit more of a literalistic interpretation, not a little bit, a very literalistic interpretation of revelation. They would say, hey, there's going to be. Things get really bad. There's going to be something that has the tribulation is what it's called. And then Jesus will return, defeat evil, but then there'll be this thousand year reign physically of Christ on earth with resurrected believers and believers who are alive at that time. So they're going to reign physically with Jesus for a thousand years.

[B]

But what about the rapture? Is that part of the.

[C]

I'll get back to that because there's two groups. One group is gonna hate that I'm gonna use these phrases. But there's what's called classical or historic premillennial, or for those friends who maybe don't like those terms, mainstream. Maybe you say mainstream premillennials.

[A]

George Ladd, who.

[C]

Yes, George Lad. They would say there's gonna be rapture in the sense of we are going to meet Jesus in the air, but then we're coming back down. Because they would point where that's referenced in Thessalonians. The language is the same language that is used of when an emissary or king would come to a city. They would go out and meet the king, but then come immediately back with the king is what they would point to. And so historic or classic premillennialists would say a literal thousand year reign. At the very end, there's going to be a final rebellion. Jesus kicks their teeth in, wins, and then new heavens and earth begins after the final judgment, a different offshoot that developed for the last couple hundred years. And then I'm going to actually push pause and kind of give their views then on ethnic Israel and then the nation states of Israel. Dispensational premillennialism has arisen. They would say it's been throughout history, but it's really arisen specifically as a huge movement of the last 200 years. Some big differences.

[A]

Scofield Bible.

[C]

Scofield Bible, huge influence, especially in America. For those of you, like in the last 30 years, the left behind series, that's dispensationalism.

[A]

Dispensational premillennialism. That's the Left behind viewpoint. And I will say, just to give a lot of people think that's the Christian view. And I think what you do need to do as a Christian is zoom out and go, man. Actually, by the way, this is not Saying that's wrong. That position may actually be correct. I kind of lean historic premill, but that position may totally be correct. But I do think what a Christian has to do is zoom out and go, oh man. There are other positions that have been actually more prominently held.

[C]

Yes. And so many people, because of its huge influence in America, think that that is the view and it may be right. But we got to be careful to point to not think it's deviation. A few differences and then I'll get into views of Israel. They would say there's going to be a rapture of believers to he heaven for seven years during which that time of tribulation will happen and which the nation state of Israel from the Old Testament will be completely recapitulated and restarted in its biblical form. And then they would then go to the same thousand years that historic believers would believe in. With that, as I mentioned earlier, they make a strong distinction between the church and Israel. So all the promises given to biblical Israel in the Old Testament have to be literally fulfilled. The exact amount of land, the temple, everything has to be fulfilled literally. Let me come now to their views of Israel. Really, for the first 1600 years of Christian history, pre mil amil and post mill really believe the same thing about ethnic Jews. And that is that there will be a mass conversion at the end of time, as seen in Romans 11 is where they would point to for that. But then in terms of the idea of a nation state of Israel for the first 1600 years, there really wasn't much conception of that. It was very rare. There are people there. But I sometimes joke it's like trying to find a vegetarian in a barbecue restaurant. It's like they're there, but they're rare and hard to find.

[B]

Is it because it ceased to be a nation?

[C]

Some would make that argument. But interestingly enough, things began to switch in 1600s before it was. And there began to arise a belief that it had to be reconstituted.

[A]

Which by the way, is why when it was reconstituted in 1948, that view exploded. And I'll be very honest, that's very compelling. Extremely compelling.

[C]

And so to your point, the fact that it's new doesn't mean that it's necessarily wrong, because you could point to that. Although it's funny because a lot of people who believe that also believe that prophecy ceased.

[A]

Different discussion.

[C]

That's a different discussion for another time. We're not going to open up that can of worms. We're about to say, Carlos.

[B]

Yeah, and I was Just going to say, when I first heard about the whole Israel thing not being a nation and then it became a nation after how many a thousand plus years? It's like, wait, what?

[C]

So an important thing, classical or historic premillennials would many of them, if not most, would believe that Israel would be reconstituted. But after Jesus return. But Starting in the 1600 or 1700s, post millennials, some Amils, some premals began believing that no, there needs to be a reconstituted Israel. Dispensationalists took this in the 1800s and really ran with it again. The point is to say that's wrong. I think you said it well, Pastor Joss, which is to say we have to be careful not to say it's the view because for 1600 years Christians read the same verses and they did not come to the same conclusions. And so depending then upon how you approach the scripture is in large part going to determine how you approach the modern state of Israel. So dispensationalists would view the modern state of Israel.

[A]

Yeah, let's get into this. So are you going to. Let's take each position and go. Here's how that position affects your view of relationship to modern day Israel.

[C]

So a post mill all meal and actually many pre meals would say really what I would say because I'm going to put my cards on the table so people just know. I definitely lean more. Amelia. But many of us would say the creation of the modern state of Israel has no prophetic significance, meaning that this did not have to happen for the end to happen and that the nation state of Israel did not biblically have to be reconstituted for God to fulfill his promise.

[B]

Do you agree with that?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Like it had no bearing what happened.

[C]

In no prophetic significance.

[B]

Prophetic significance.

[C]

Follow me for a second. What we would say, what many if not most would say, is that it has strategic importance both for the protection of the Jewish people after World War II and including today. It has strategic geolito, political importance for democracy. And if we believe there's going to be a mass conversion of Jews from Romans 11, it would seem in God's providence a very strategic thing to happen because you have a mass concentration of them in one place. And so even I think that's pretty much what Al Mohler was saying in his video is that the modern state of Israel is not the biblical Israel, but it contains Israel and it's just very strategic for God's purposes for Israel. So most premals, Amos and Post Mills would say, hey, the Modern state of Israel is not the biblical Israel. It is not necessary for the end to happen, but it is strategic in what God wants to happen.

[A]

Almost in the same way. Whereas like Christianity, being born into the Roman Empire was strategic for the spread of the gospel. Gospel, the creation of the nation state of Israel, where a whole bunch of ethnically Jewish people would come back to one place. That could be extremely strategic for a revival and awakening of faith among ethnic Jews. Same. That's an analogy.

[C]

One more thing that I'll go to the dispensational, how they would view it is that for those groups, they would not then necessarily not support Israel. So I don't want people to hear, oh, so if you're those groups, you don't support modernism? No, I hold an amillennial view where there's no necessarily prophetic significance of the creation, the modern state of Israel, but I broadly support Israel. It doesn't mean I agree with everything they do, but I do broadly support. So I don't want people to think like, oh, that's your option, that it's one or the other.

[B]

And by I broadly support Israel, what does that mean specifically?

[C]

Oh, it just means I believe they have the right to exist. I believe for the most part we should have. They should be our allies.

[A]

You want to see ethnic Jewish people experience blessing, that kind of thing?

[C]

Oh, 100% and one even for example, for me personally, I don't know that all Christians agree on this, but personally, for example, their conflict with Iran, I would support them and say, yeah, we need to take Iran's nuclear capabilities by any means necessary.

[A]

Let me just interject this like this should. It should not be controversial to not want the guy who chants death to America not to have nuclear weapons. Like that should not be controversial.

[C]

And I gotta be careful because so many cans of foreigners, some of the same people who think that is controversial are the same people who think we should take weapons away, away from people because they're dangerous, defund the police, but.

[A]

Give them a nuclear weapon.

[C]

Nuclear weapon. This, this seems to be really consistent logic we're using here. Okay, Dispensationists would say, hey, the reconstitution of Israel has to happen and that it happening in 1948 was of prophetic significance, that it was a necessary step for God's plans in revelation to happen.

[A]

I'll just read the verse because it is like, like, dude, it is. This is like, okay, so this is Isaiah 66, 8, the prophec. This seems to prophesy that that leans into dispensational view. Okay. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her son. So it seems to prophesy that there would come a day where in one day day the nation of Israel would be reconstituted. And then that's what happened.

[C]

Yeah, and I'm. I'm so glad, Pastor Josh, you said that, because one thing I forgot to say earlier is that with each of these views, each of them has strong scriptures support them. Each of them has scripture that if I threw at the person holding the view, they would try to give an explanation. And those of us who don't agree with them would look at them like that was weak sauce that you just threw back.

[A]

Can I just say something on this point? All right. Also. So I've got a theory on this and you guys feel free to disagree. Bible scholars point out that the. Actually not Bible scholars. The book of First Corinthians points out that the Old Testament prophecies about the first coming of Christ were written in intentionally vague ways so that you could read them. And before the prophecies were fulfilled, you wouldn't be able to tease out the specifics and the order of specifically how, where, and in what sequence the prophecies would be fulfilled. Fascinatingly, the Bible says the reason God wrote them with that vagueness was so that demons wouldn't be able to figure out how he was going to accomplish salvation. Because if they figured it out, they would have tried to stop it. I'm going to read this passage. This is like super meta, like, you know, awesome stuff. This is First Corinthians. No, we declare God's wisdom a mystery that has been hidden. Talking about these prophecies, it's like the meaning was hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. Can none of the rulers of this age talking about demonic principalities and powers understood it? Because if they had, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of Glory. So he was saying old test prophecies around about the first coming of Jesus were written with intentional vagueness. So you would not be able to beforehand tease out how, when hair, what sequence, on purpose, Personal opinion. I think the prophecies about the second coming of Christ carry some measure of the same type of vagueness, possibly for the exact same reason. Reason.

[C]

Wow. Yes.

[A]

You're allowed to disagree.

[C]

No, I was tempted to open up a can, but I can already Feel.

[A]

My spirit open up a can of what?

[C]

Well, so readings of Revelation even get into this because I mentioned if you're a premillennial, either dispensational or classic, you would have more of a literal and more of a futuristic reading of Revelation that it's the future post. Millennials actually have more of what's called a preterist or a past reading of Revelation that most of Revelation was accomplished in the first century.

[A]

80, 70.

[C]

Yeah, except for the last few chapters of Revelation, by the way. That is at times the very broad and popular reading of it.

[A]

Yeah, dude, I'll just say this if we don't have time to go into it right now. If you're like a super Bible nerd and you want to read about preterism or partial preterism, and how a lot of the events of the book of Revelation at least seem to have some measure of fulfillment in AD 70 when the temple is destroyed and Jerusalem is raised. Like, it's a little creepy when if.

[C]

You unpack even like for example, the Beast and 666 and how like the. If. If you can make it make sense of a lot of the things that happen.

[A]

But Nero, the 666 thing. Wes Huff just posted about this. Like, we don't have time to go into all this. Well, I'll get some of it wrong, but Jewish people ascribed a lot of mathematic significance to letters. So that was like a big. A big thing. So something about how I think it's like Nero Emperor or something like that.

[C]

Ye. The.

[A]

That six that the alphanumeric values assigned to Nero or emperor, something like that, they add up to 666. So a lot of partial preterists or preterists think that when it says mark of the beast 6, 6 it was referring to Nero, who's the one that obviously helped with the AD 70 destruction of the temple in Israel.

[C]

And even with that is the beast arises from the sea. If you're reading the Book of John, where did emperors come from? The sea. The beast died of a wound to the head or seemed to die. Nero died of a wound to the neck head there. The beast was going to come back. There were rumors that Nero was going to return so you could read it. And it seems to make a lot of sense. Then there's what all millennials would see as more of what's called an idealist view, that it's more of a timeless depiction of a spiritual struggle. They definitely believe that Jesus return is going to happen, but see more of it as a timeless struggle. And then the book of Revelation in their reading would be basically the same events repeated over and over from different angles and with different symbols. I personally am more of an eclecticist, which has become around a hybrid is the more kind of street level term where we would say the book of Revelation did happen. It does happen and it will happen.

[A]

Agree? Yeah, agree. I think every Christian should believe that. Yeah.

[C]

And so I feel my spirit. I know we probably we'd be coming off these different places to bring us back a few things here. Number one, for those of you who are listening to this and maybe one like man, how does this apply to me? I always the most practical thing I can do with my life is to leverage it for the purposes and plans of God.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

So if I, if I am wanting to know what God is doing, man, some of like end times helps me know what is he, what is his ultimate goal? And I want to be a part of that. And the other thing, as I'd say is no matter what your view is on this, you said this earlier, we should all go out at the end of this and share the gospel with people. I actually have a rule sometimes with friends that if we're debating this issue, I say, hey, when was the last time we've shared the gospel with someone? Invite us on church and we're not going to talk about this again until we do that. But then the last thing I say is there's a question I have to. Careful. I don't want to get ahead of you, Carlos, but people sometimes ask, well, do I have a biblical obligation or do I have to biblically support the modern state of Israel? I personally like to say, I think I would make the argument that you should, but I don't like to use the word must. And I'll kind of bring this all together. And for these reasons, historically, Christians have said that if I use a word like must, like there's a biblical obligation, it has to be explicit scripturally or by good and necessary reason be deduced from scripture.

[A]

Scripture.

[C]

So for example, if I say, do I have a biblical obligation to love my wife of Christ, loved the church? Yes. To not steal? Yes. Do I have a biblical obligation to believe in the Trinity?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But the Trinity is not. That word's not in the Bible, but it can be deduced from good and necessary reason to be in the Bible. So those are things that we say you must like. If you don't, you are sinning. The reason I wouldn't be careful to Say you have to believe a certain thing about the modern society of Israel is because, as we just talked for the last 15, 20 minutes, because it's tied to these views, as you've said, that have been debated through the last 2000 years. If I say one of those views, that you must believe it. I'm basically, this is the only way to interpret it. And that if you don't interpret this way, you're sinning. And so that's why, personally, the way I like to say is I think you should. I can make the argument that we should. I just want to be careful to say you must support everything they do.

[A]

And that goes back to theological triage. Hey, man. First tier, second tier, third tier. How we got to treat these things? I think that's important. Let me make a couple, just say a couple finalized things and then let's just. Hey, final comments. Let's start and let's try to do this like, all right, again, our goal is live free. So, like, let's finish thinking. All right. How does this form us as men and women of God, building families that serve the Lord as disciples? Let me just say a couple other comments because we didn't read it anywhere else, and I think it's very significant. Let me read the passage that makes most, most theologians, almost all reject what's called supersessionism, that believes that there is a complete, for lack of a better term, replacement. I know they hate that term, replacement of ethnic Israel with the church. Most theologians reject that view. I would say that's right. Most. Most theologians definitely say the vast, vast majority. Romans 11. The end of it says that this. There's so much I could read here. I'm just going to read the end. Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers. Again, note how frequently the word mystery is here. We should have some humility around some prophetic vagueness. A partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Multiple passages of the Bible say this was God's sovereign place plan that we might not fully understand, but that he intentionally allowed. Yes, I'm going to use that word, allowed the hearts of Israel to be hardened towards faith in Christ in order to accomplish the spread of the gospel among Gentiles. By the way, we got a Scottish dude. I don't know what I am. I'm like a Missouri Mutt and an El Salvadorian. Three Gentiles. Let me just say, like, I get a little emotion. I am Very grateful for the sovereignty of God allowing the gospel go to the Gentiles. Like, that's why I'm here. And in. Watch this. And in this way, all Israel will be saved. As it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob, and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins. So it seems like he's saying, saying the hardening of Israel that leads to the inclusion of many Gentiles will eventually result in a mass salvation in the future of ethnic Jews. So much so that people will say things like, dude, it seems like all of them are getting saved. All Israel is what it says here. All right, now let's keep going. Verse 28. As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God. For your sake, take. But as regards election, in other words, God chose the ethnic people of Israel back in Genesis 12 and 15. As regards election, they are beloved. So he's saying they're the. Those ethnic people are still beloved in some sense. So that's not total supersessionism in my view. Okay. For the sake of their forefathers. For the. This is what's important. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. So the promises that he gave to those ethnic people are not revocable. He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. Let me keep going. Just as you at one time were disobedient to God, but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that by mercy shown to you, they may also now receive mercy. See, so he's. That's. Do you get. He's saying, like God's strategy is to make the ethnic Jewish people jealous. There's another passage that says that to make them jealous, man, God is obviously working and saving and doing special things for all those Gentiles, we want to get back in on that. That's like essentially the Bubba version of that thing. Oh, the depths of the riches, the wisdom and knowledge of God. How unsearchable are his judgments, how inscrutable his ways. And I'll just finish this there. Even the Apostle Paul is gone, bro, I don't even understand all this. Honestly, we ought to have some humility if the Apostle Paul's going, bro, I don't even get it. That's fine. Well then it's okay for us not to get everything.

[C]

Great point.

[A]

So I wanted to say that. Last thing I'll say is, I do think the scriptures should lead Modern day Christians to. I don't know if prioritize is the right word, but value evangelism of Jewish people.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And I'll just go back to Romans, chapter one says this. For the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. And then it says, first to the Jew and then to the Greek. And you'll notice that is the Apostle Paul's evangelism strategy. Throughout the Book of Acts. He goes straight to the synagogue, preaches the Jews. Once the Jews reject him, then he goes to the Gentiles. So I think that's what we ought to be doing. That is, by the way, that's like why Lake Point has established an international partner church in, in Jerusalem. King of Kings. We did that because of that verse. First to the Jew, then to the Greek. All right, final thoughts here. If somebody's listening to this, they're going.

[C]

I talked for a while, so I'm going to defer to you first.

[B]

Well, back to just very practical, I think, you know, I'm here honestly, like for people that are very passionate about conversations like this, there's something really humbling about hitting a topic like this that's so complex. And then you're like, man, because there's a lot of people that are very outspoken about this right view or oh, you're so wrong and you know, you're going to hell because you believe in that one thing. And you know, I think there's something very, you need to consider that if the Apostle Paul writes Romans 11 and after that he says, but, oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and the knowledge of God and how unsearchable his judgments are and who could know path. Like, if that's the Apostle Paul, you know, you should have some humility. And I'll say for me, even as we were, you know, hey, let's talk about this issue, man. Let me, let me study and let me. The more you study, the more you realize how much you do not know. And there should be a posture of humility and an openness really, to learn before you're here to, you know, fight in the comment section or whatever. And so again, that's just for me. Again, just a great reminder of man. I'm here to learn. So, Paul, thank you for being here.

[C]

My pleasure meeting for me. I'll just pick on something I said earlier that this should be a topic. While it can create passionate discussion, it should not create division or distraction and distraction from what I'd say from our mission. Pastor Josh, you hit on this. I'll just Expand it. I love in second, Peter. Peter is actually talking about the return of Jesus. And some people are saying, oh, he's not come back, so he's not coming back. Like, all this is all made up. And Peter says, hey, don't confuse these things. Don't say that God is slow. Because he says in verse 9, the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise. Promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. And so sometimes when we look at the state of the world or things happen in our lives, you know, Christians may say something like this, or at least feel it, like, jesus, what are you waiting for? Like, come back, it's getting bad. And I would say there's times where I have felt that or I've heard that. And when I read this verse, I like to actually imagine sometimes Jesus looking down, said, I'm waiting on you.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[C]

I'm waiting on you. If you're an unbeliever to come to repentance. Because when Jesus comes back, for those who don't know him as Lord and Savior, it's the end for them.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And they don't get another chance.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And so I'd say. I'd also say. I'd say Jesus is looking to say, I'm waiting for you in the sense of you, meaning believers, and saying, I'm waiting for you to go take the gospel to them. And it can be to people who are Jewish. But also I just say to them about how does this work for people just in their regular lives? Like, is to take the gospel to anyone who's close to you but far from God. And that can be. Sometimes the closest people to us that are far from God are the kids in our homes, if you're a mom and a dad. So it's man bringing them up in the Lord and sharing the gospel with them. It can be our neighbors. It can be whoever your one more is. I just say, hey, wherever you land, we should. In terms of this particular discussion, we should then all in the same place. Wherever we land, we're going out and sharing the gospel with as many people as we can so they can be prepared to meet Jesus whenever and however he returns.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Jesus is coming back in glory. Today we pray, let your kingdom come and yet let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

Pastor Josh, would you pray for us?

[A]

Lord, thank you for the confidence and the rest and the peace that we have. Knowing that you win, you will make all your enemies a footstool for your feet like your word says. I pray Lord that us as men and women of God that we would be prepared that none of us would be caught off guard that we would be walking in a quick repentance to walk in holiness before you. Because when you return on that day we will wish for nothing more than that we had leveraged our lives for the glory of God and your the advance of your kingdom. So Father, help us to live this day day in light of that day. Father. I do. I just feel compelled to do it after reading the verses I I eagerly pray for the salvation of of the Jewish people. I pray Lord that that surely I shall see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. So like I'm just going to ask God just because I want to see it. Would you like please do it in my lifetime so that we would all we'd start reading news stories and seeing headlines of of mass revival and salvation among your people. Your the ethnic Jewish people. Father, would you please continue to pour out blessing on all of the children of the Promise Lord, sons and daughters of Abraham, by faith and God just thank you. Thank you. Haste the day in Jesus name. Amen.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

Amen. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor John. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church Livefree. We'll see you next time.