Are Generational CURSES Real?! What the Bible REALLY Says... | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

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Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Title: Are Generational CURSES Real?! What the Bible REALLY Says...
Host: Pastor Josh Howerton
Guests: Carlos Horaso, Pastor Paul Cunningham
Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the controversial and often misunderstood topic of generational curses in the Bible. The panel—Pastor Josh, Carlos Horaso, and Pastor Paul Cunningham—dissects the scriptural foundation (or lack thereof) for generational curses, discusses the difference between generational influence and supernatural bondage, and ultimately provides listeners with biblical hope for breaking destructive family cycles. They also address if a Christian can be possessed by a demon and tease an upcoming episode explaining every Christian denomination.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Humor, Chemistry, and Community

• The episode opens with light-hearted banter about Disney trips, favorite embarrassing photos, and inside jokes, setting a friendly, relatable tone ([01:15]-[03:35]).
• The team celebrates church milestones and promotes listener engagement through giveaways and invites to upcoming special events ([05:06]-[06:38]).

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2. Dispelling Misinformation: The “Israel Data Scandal”

• Josh addresses persistent rumors that Lakepointe Church sold congregant data to Israel for $7,000 as an example of believing internet conspiracies ([07:00]-[09:35]):
  • Quote: "Please stop believing stupid things. Please stop believing stupid things. That's a stupid thing." — Josh [08:57]

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3. Biblical Context: The “Herods” as Case Study ([10:36]-[15:59])

• Josh breaks down the Herodian dynasty, highlighting how a family line (the Herods) opposed the work of God through generations.
• Paul’s Courage: Paul boldly testifies to Agrippa (a Herod), knowing his family’s violent legacy against Jesus and His followers.
  • Quote: "Spine of steel. ...I want you on Team Jesus." — Josh [14:43]

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4. Are Generational Curses Real? ([15:59]-[24:25])

Definitions — The Crux of the Debate

• Josh (Summarized):
  • It depends on your definition of curse.
  • "Generational curses, no; generational influences, yes." — Josh [17:02]
  • Influences (like addictions or patterns) are passed down, but not supernatural curses that require exorcism.

Scriptural Examination

• Exodus 34: Often cited to defend generational curses ("punishes the children... to the third and fourth generation").
• Ezekiel 18: God rebukes blaming ancestors for personal sin, declaring, "The one who sins is the one who will die" [21:18].
  • Quote: "I don't care what your dad did, don't care what your mom did. God's going, did you sin? Then that's going to be your problem." — Josh [21:50]
• John 9: Jesus refutes the assumption that ancestral sin caused a man's blindness.
  • Quote: "This is so Jesus-y..." — Carlos [23:27]

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5. Therapy Meets Theology: Generational Strongholds ([24:25]-[26:24])

• Therapy concepts (like "genograms") echo what Scripture has long taught: issues like addiction, divorce, etc., often track through generations.
• Deliverance can occur through prayer, counsel, and “means of grace,” but ultimately, salvation in Christ breaks all spiritual claims.

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6. Can a Christian Be Possessed by a Demon? ([46:18]-[55:30])

• Josh: Depends on “possessed.”

  • Ownership (first definition): NO. A Christian is owned by Christ.
  • Occupation (second definition): Christians cannot be owned by demons, but can "open the door" through grave, ongoing sin or occult involvement, allowing demonic oppression.
  • Influence/Character (third definition): Sinful influences can become "fossilized" (habitual/entrenched) in families or individuals, but never imply loss of salvation.
  • Quote: "If you mean, can a demon own a Christian? No. ...You are a blood-bought possession of the living God." — Josh [52:59]

• Paul/Carlos: Agree—Christians cannot be "possessed," but can be oppressed/influenced if they "open the door."

  • Christians must take responsibility, use prayer and community, but remember ultimate freedom is in Christ's finished work.

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7. Personal Stories & Practical Applications ([41:52]-[45:54])

• Paul’s family genogram: Multigenerational divorce and brokenness threaten his family, but through faith, prayer, and personal responsibility, he aims to end the cycle.
  • Quote: "I'd be a fool to look at that and say, 'Oh, I'm good.' No, there does seem to be some kind of a special attack... but in my generation, with me, it stops." — Paul [43:57]

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8. Scripture’s Hope: Breaking the Cycle ([35:14]-[41:47])

• Josiah’s Example: Josiah breaks the chain of wickedness despite his evil ancestors, choosing the spiritual legacy of David (not his biological lineage).

  • Quote: "One teenager made a decision...I'm not my granddad and I'm not my dad. That's my heavenly father. And I got a new spiritual heritage now. And it changes the course of the whole Old Testament." — Josh [41:38]

• Numerical Emphasis in Exodus 34: God’s loving kindness extends to a thousand generations, far surpassing the “third and fourth” generations affected by sin.

• Carlos: "Faith can also be passed from generation to generation." [55:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Josh's Life-Rallying Cry: "Hey, dads, when you're fighting those dragons, you're not just fighting for you. You're fighting for your children and your children's children." [00:00]
• Classic:
  • "Please stop believing stupid things." — Josh [08:57]
  • "You got a different dad now." — Josh [46:10]
  • "You can be oppressed by a demon, but you can never be possessed by a demon. Why? Because you are a blood-bought possession of the living God." — Josh [52:59]
• Carlos: "On an encouraging side, faith can also be passed from generation to generation." [55:42]

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Key Timestamps

• [10:36] Deep dive into the Herodian dynasty and generational biblical context
• [15:59] Are generational curses real?
• [17:02] "Generational curses, no; generational influences, yes."
• [21:18] Ezekiel 18 & biblical agency
• [24:25] Real-life generational influences and breaking the cycle
• [35:14] Josiah’s epic break with his family’s dark legacy
• [41:52] Paul’s personal story of ending generational strongholds
• [46:18] Can a Christian be possessed by a demon?
• [52:59] "You can be oppressed... but never possessed."
• [55:42] Faith passed through generations

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Tone & Language

• Authentic, Relatable, Encouraging: The feel is brotherly, with serious theological substance delivered through practical illustrations and honest testimony.
• Original Speaker's Voice: Frequent use of "bro," humor, and direct appeals ("hey, dads," "listen, really close").

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Conclusion: What the Bible Really Says

• Destructive family patterns are real and biblical, but not inescapable supernatural curses—every cycle can be broken by repentance, prayer, and new identity in Christ.
• The hope: In Christ, believers inherit a new, victorious spiritual legacy. God’s grace eclipses the power of familial sin.

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Next Episode Teaser

Stay tuned for Wednesday’s bonus episode: a breakdown of every major Christian denomination, what they believe, and why denominations matter.

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To sum up:
The episode offers biblical clarity, practical wisdom, and hope—helping listeners move from fatalism ("I can't because my dad did") to faith-driven action ("I can, because Jesus already did").

Transcript

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, dads, when you're fighting those dragons, you're not just fighting for you. You're fighting for your children and your children's children.

[Carlos Horaso]

Sin can be passed on from generation to generation. But on an encouraging side, faith can also be passed from generation to generation.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

One teenager made a decision many years ago to go, I'm not my granddad and I'm not my dad. That's my heavenly father. And I got a new spiritual heritage now. And it changes the course of the whole Old Testament.

[Carlos Horaso]

Well, hey, lit Free nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Tex. But the live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church Online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now enjoy the podcast.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Let's kick this big.

[Carlos Horaso]

Let's kick this pig. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live free podcast. My name is Carlos Horaso, and today I'm here with the one and only Pastor Josh Howerton and Pastor Paul Cunningham.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

The boys are back in town.

[Carlos Horaso]

Hey, man. What a great episode we had the last. Last week, man.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You were just real quiet,

[Carlos Horaso]

the three of us. It was so great. I was a little stiff, you know, like, you know, just a little.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, man, a little.

[Carlos Horaso]

I felt a little rigid.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Least chemistry I've ever experienced.

[Carlos Horaso]

Yeah, but I thought it was pretty good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

How was vacation?

[Carlos Horaso]

That was good, man. Went to Disneyland. It was good. People don't know this, but there's actually a few people at Lake Point that they are like, hardcore die hard Disney fans. Yeah, it's a little cultish, if I'm honest. And. And so.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Do you know this song?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Do you know this song?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

It's by Nickelback.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's not. Stop.

[Carlos Horaso]

All right, I. I think I've heard it, but, yeah, it was. It was great. I. We had fun, man. It was. It was good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Did your boy have a good time?

[Carlos Horaso]

He did, yes. We had. We had a blast. And, yeah, everything. Everything is new. All the, you know, Pixar characters.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[Carlos Horaso]

So it was fun. One thing I will say there is. I saw that you shared a particular photo of me.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Carlos Horaso]

I was gonna ask you how that

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

corn dog or hot dog was.

[Carlos Horaso]

Did you say. Did you ask your favorite photo of me? Is that what you said?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's one of my favorite pictures of you.

[Carlos Horaso]

Well, that's. That's funny, because what's getting ready to happen. That's really funny because I actually have a favorite photo of you as well.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

He's been waiting to do this.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What is this?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

He's been waiting.

[Carlos Horaso]

And so Trinity.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Hold on.

[Carlos Horaso]

So he's. First of all, let me. Let me. I cropped it because I want to make sure that we major on the majors here.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Oh, Jana would have loved to be in this. Okay, well, you know, first of all,

[Carlos Horaso]

I will say this. I will say this. Josh, there is nothing you need to explain of in this photo. Yeah, there is, except for one thing.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

The shoes. The shoes. Look at the shoes, bro. What? Somebody gave me a free pair of Nike running shoes in an era of my life where I couldn't just afford to go get another pair. And I was running a lot, and so I wore them for, like, four years.

[Carlos Horaso]

Everything else is normal in that photo, but the shoes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, let me explain this. And then we have quite a spicy episode. So we're gonna talk generational curses. Our generational curse is a thing. Can a Christian be possessed by a demon? And then, ladies and gentlemen, this has become such a frequently asked question. We're gonna do it. We're gonna do every Christian denomination explained in 20 minutes or less.

[Carlos Horaso]

Wow.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And then we may rank them.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Oh, I did not know that part.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, we'll see. We'll see. But we're definitely gonna. So this is. This is gonna be interesting.

[Carlos Horaso]

It's gonna be fun.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So wait, I do wanna explain that picture real quick.

[Carlos Horaso]

Okay, yeah, go ahead.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And then, hey, then you gotta explain your camping picture.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Oh, no.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So what city was that in? England. We were in York, maybe wherever the Jane Austen Museum is. And Jana could not miss the Jane Austen Museum. And then when you're done, they, you know, you can dress up as the characters. And Jana really wanted to dress up and get a picture. And as a sacrificial, loving husband. Wow. I. Look at that.

[Carlos Horaso]

What an example. Wow. That's. Thank you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's my best Mr. Darcy impression.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's amazing. Well, that's my favorite photo of you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Thank you.

[Carlos Horaso]

Yeah, I'm happy to share it. Hey, if you are part of the Live Free Nation, if you're ever in the DFW area and you want to come hang out and come visit us in person, please do come say hi and find us in our first time guest tent. We're going to hook you up with some gifts. Every single week, we do a hat giveaway.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Boom.

[Carlos Horaso]

If you're on YouTube or Spotify, comment hat. And we love to give away some free stuff. And by the way, some people are asking, hey, I didn't get chosen for the giveaway.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We get this a lot.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Lot.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, there's a lot of people who actually think the only way to get a hat is to be the one person chosen out of 2,000 comments.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's not true. Pastor Paul, how do we get a hat?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

You text hat to 20411.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Oh, okay.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Is that the right guess? Yeah, that's right.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's it, man. That's it. We were trying to make it easy.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Put me on such a spot. I was afraid to get it wrong

[Carlos Horaso]

or go to Live Free Shop to get a hat also. Oh, man, I was going to get a flag. We're going to get a lift at some point.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Flag is coming. I also want to tease this and let's start talking about this. I just want to put this on everybody's radar. When we opened the Royse City campus, which is coming up. Oh, by the way, shout out Royce City, Roy City Campus got into their building this week.

[Carlos Horaso]

Let's go.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So that was soft launch, hard launches. Not until August when we get into the Royse City building. Live Free Nation, because it's going to be honestly pretty close to our 100th episode. I think we're going to do our first ever live podcast recording.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Bro, Be so good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So you heard it here first.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Carlos Horaso]

Start making plans. You'll get more info later. One more thing to find our daily Bible reading plan, plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release of this live free episode, plus the discipleship guide. Download the Lake Point Church app and text the word APP 220411 or go to Apple or Google Play store. By the way, if you're on YouTube and you have not yet subscribed to our YouTube channel, you need to do that right now because we're literally like 50,000 subscribers away from hitting 1 million subscribers a milli. Why?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Who specifically is the millionth subscriber?

[Carlos Horaso]

We're gonna give him a special gift.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, man. If we can figure it out.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yes. Two hats.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Two hats.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Signed by Paul Cunningham, mid tier, middle of the road podcast man. Just not. Not too bad at all.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Sorry, that was for you. That's hilarious. That was. And I took that personally.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's for Josh. That's great.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait, can I make fun of the Israel thing?

[Carlos Horaso]

Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Not Israel itself is.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

No, no, the Israel thing.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I was gonna say, hey, we need every podcast listener to stop believing stupid things on the Internet, and we need every podcast listener that doesn't believe stupid things on the Internet to tell people who do believe stupid things on the Internet that those things are really stupid.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, so this is. I just want to. I'm so tired of getting this DM that I'm just like, let's just get this out of the way. So toss that up there and we will. Okay, good. We blurred it. So we keep getting this accusation that somehow this is. What? I won't read the whole. Actually, Josh, are you telling your parishioners that you are geofencing all their data on behalf of a foreign agent? Israel? Somebody listen to Nick Fuentes too many times and they will receive pro Israel information as a result. Show Faith By Works llc. List Lake Point Church and Rockwall. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. The minute you had Ali Beth on, it was clear. I'm sorry, I'm being a teenage girl and you're good, man.

[Carlos Horaso]

Keep going, keep going.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

For someone new to Christianity, you have become exactly what you preached and warned about. You are huge disappointment. How could you do this? People who trust you. And this is like, we keep getting this. So here's what this. What we keep getting accused of is, is receiving $7,000. This is the accusation that Lake Point received $7,000. In exchange, we sold everyone's data to the government of Israel so that they could propagandize our people. Okay, let me just say, please stop believing stupid things. Please stop believing stupid things. That's a stupid thing. So we actually. We got this many times. We dug into this. So there actually was. There was an organization called Show Faith or something like that, that they, unbeknownst to churches, they had developed some plan to try to. Like they actually were going to try to geofence, you know, certain churches, that kind of thing, and send them some political propaganda, that kind of thing. But A, they were found out and it never happened. B, none of the churches had any idea this ever happened. C, do you guys have any idea how much crap people try to do to churches without churches knowing about it? And D, Let me just tell you something. If we were going to do something like that, D, we never ever would do that. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. But I just want to say, like, do you think we would trade everyone's data for $7,000?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Look, 7,000 per person. Put some extra zeros on that thing.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So anyway, this is just me publicly pleading with you, please stop believing stupid things.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's a public service announcement.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's a public service announcement.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's amazing, man.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm getting a phone call right now. It's probably. It's probably somebody from the government of Israel.

[Carlos Horaso]

Is that guy.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

It's Prime Minister Netanyahu right now.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's hilarious. Hey, I want. Last weekend we had 267 graduates. This week in celebration.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Nothing like it.

[Carlos Horaso]

We believe discipleship is not just a. It's awesome, dude. It's not just a marathon, but a relay race.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right, man.

[Carlos Horaso]

So, man, we cheering them on. Also this weekend we have a special guest coming in to preach.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Bishop Jonathan. Jonathan Puda is talking to him during workouts. He's taller than people think.

[Carlos Horaso]

He's taller than me, man.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm shorter than people think. He's taller than people think.

[Carlos Horaso]

We're excited for that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's going to be a special week.

[Carlos Horaso]

So Pastor Mike Burrow crushed it this last weekend.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Crush.

[Carlos Horaso]

And Pastor Josh, to ask you there. I know there's a couple things from Acts 26. This is the second week where we're in it that you wanted to double down on and kind of explain.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. So here. Here's what we want to talk about. The reason we want to lead into this. So Acts 25 and 26, Paul is obviously testifying before the Roman judicial system there in. Where is he there? He's in Caesarea, Cesarea, Maritima. What he does in Acts 25 and 26, he. He testifies before a guy. You just see it in your Bible. It just says Herod. Or actually it just says Agrippa. It says Herod and Agrippa, if I remember right. But that's one of those names. And let me just say this real quick. And then there's a reason you're going to see. When we talk about generational curses, this actually is a passage that sometimes people use to give an example of a potential generational curse. Because what's really interesting, when Paul testifies before Herod, there's two names in the New Testament Trip People up all the time. It's Mary and Herod because there's a million Marys and there's a million Herods. So the big deal on this guy is he's one one of four Herods mentioned in your New Testament. They're all related. So it's the Herodian. It was called the Herodian dynasty, the Herodian family tree. They were all extremely powerful in the Roman Empire. So for Bible readers, this is a quick Bible Bible nerd moment. So here's who they are, here's where they're mentioned, here's what they did and here's how they're related. And then you're going to see why all this leads into the question are a generational curse is a thing. Let's do a theology that real quick. So number one, the first guy is mentioned in Matthew. So the guy mentioned in Acts 25 and 26 is Herod Agrippa II. That's who historians definitively pinpoint as the Herod. Herod Agrippa the second. So if you're listening, bookmark that in your head. The first guy that's mentioned is his great grandfather was a Herod, just called Herod the Great. Herod the Great. He's mentioned in Matthew 2. Matthew 2 is a chapter where he's the guy, by the way, that the wise men come to him and they're like, ah, there's a king going to be born. He's the, the guy that sends people to kill all, to slaughter all the kids 2 years old and under in Jesus hometown to try to kill Jesus. So bookmark that in your head. All right? Not a great dude. So then that's Herod the Great. Now the second one that's mentioned is mentioned in Luke 9. That's another Herod. That's Herod Antipas, also related. He is the great uncle of Herod Agrippa ii in Acts 25. Now again, you're going to start to see a pattern develop here. He's mentioned Luke 9 because that's the Herod who. She's not his mistress. The girl that dances. Salome. Yes.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

It's like daughter, daughter, daughter, daughter in law, something like that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

She does the shady little dance and. And he and his buddies are. I don't know, man, I don't even want to talk about it. They get all excited about her little dance and he essentially goes, I'll give you anything up to half my kingdom. She asked for the head of John the Baptist. Side note, that's always what happens is godless political want to kill faithful prophets. That's always what happens. And. And so he is the guy that beheads John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus, John the baptizer. So that's two. Now, there's a third one that's mentioned, the guys mentioned in Acts 12. That's Herod Agrippa, the first. So that's her, obviously. Herod Agrippa. This the second's dad. Good little. There you go. This is the guy he's mentioned, Acts 12. He's the guy that has the apostle James beheaded. So he's the first James, the first apostle. That's a martyr. Yes, James, the first apostle is a martyr. He beheads James in Acts 12. That's also the chapter where Peter gets arrested and then the angel lets him out. All that happens. Acts 12. So he's the guy that kills the first apostle and tries to kill Peter, the leader of the apostles. So for. For you who are listening, if you start putting this together, you. When Paul's standing in front of this guy In Acts 25 and 26, I just want to think about this. It's the kind of thing you read your Bible and you don't realize the emotional tension that's built into the chapter because Paul knows everything about this guy's family tree. So Paul knows his great grandfather tried to kill Jesus. His great uncle did kill John the Baptist. His dad killed James and tried to kill Peter. Paul knows that, and this guy knows that. Paul knows that. And Paul's on trial in front of this guy. And think about this dude testifying to the guy whose family tried to kill Jesus and killed a bunch of Jesus followers. Paul stands. He stands firm, and he testifies to the lordship of Jesus, the fact that Jesus is the king of kings, that Jesus did rise from the dead. And he's pointing to the reality that Jesus, in the words of the Apostles Creed, from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. So, bro, you want to talk about courage? That's Joby Martin's little thing of, hey, man, God wants you to be saved. He doesn't want you to be soft like Paul, man. Spine of steel. And he just goes, hey, man, I cannot defy my conscience. Here's who Jesus is. And he even just says, I want you on Team Jesus.

[Carlos Horaso]

Yeah, it's crazy if you think about it. All these Herods, in some sense, they all were exposed to the gospel by, you know, again, they had Jesus in front of them. Paul, the apostles, the wise men, and every single one of them responded in the same way. With a hardened heart. That's one, and then two. This is literally, like you said, multiple generations of Herods that are actively and demonically opposing the gospel and the word of God. And so my question, Pastor Josh, is, are generational curses real?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, let's talk about this. Now, let me just say pre podcast, we may disagree at the end because we rolled into the podcast with like a why. Ah, I view that a little different. Okay, so let me. I'll tell you how I view it.

[Carlos Horaso]

And then we have more debates here

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

and we just have more fun. We have a little debates.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right. Yeah, let's talk about this real quick. So I'm just going to tell you how I think about this, and then, Carlos, I want you to try to disagree with us.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's great.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And then we can figure this out together. Let's talk. So here's what I would say. I would say it depends how you define what you mean by curse. So how I like to say it, if by curse you mean, hey, man, because of what somebody's ancestor did, there is a spiritual opposition to them, and they will not be able to overcome that spiritual opposition without something like an exorcism. They can't be free without. Fill in the blank. I do not believe in that. So what I would do, and I'm going to give a biblical case for this, what I would say is, in my language, generational curses. No Generational influences. Yes.

[Carlos Horaso]

So here's what I say that one more time.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What I would say, how the language I'm most comfortable using is generational curses. No generational influences. Yes, I think there is. In one sense, what I would say is it's almost like there's a spiritual DNA. We were talking about this before the podcast. Sometimes we've heard reform guys say that because of the actions of a father, it can give covenantal permission for sins or spiritual influences to happen in your family. But what I would say is generational. You're smiling.

[Carlos Horaso]

I love it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Generational curses. No. Generational influence. Yes. Here's why I say that.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's great. That's good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Now, first of all, I'll give the positive. Okay. The passage. And I want you to add to this. You guys add to this one of the passages that make people say, yes, in addition to. For instance, you got the Herods here. Here's what we need to acknowledge. Frequently in the Bible, righteous men result in righteous children and evil, and wicked men and women result in evil and wicked sons and daughters. And we could give a million examples of that I'm gonna read one passage that makes people say yes to generational curses. And then I'm gonna read one that makes. That makes me go, no. Okay, I'll say, why? So you remember that passage. Moses is like, hey, can I see your glory? And God's like, hey, man, I'm really sorry. I would love to do this for you, but no man shall see me and live. And then God takes him and he puts him in the cleft of the rock. And then. It's one I had to memorize in college. One of my favorite passages of the Old Testament, the Bible says that God, quote, turned his hind parts to Moses, and he passes in front of Moses in the mountain, verbally declaring his character. And God says, the Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God. By the way, before I quote this, if I understand correctly, this passage is the most quoted passage in the Bible by the rest of the Bible. Is that.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Have you heard that frequently repeated in terms of his character, this refrain over and over again, big time.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I've read before that this, this verse is quoted by other parts of the Bible more than any other verse in the Bible. I need to fact check that. But. So God passed in front of Moses. He says, the Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands and forgiving, wickedness, rebellion and sin. Listen, listen, listen. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished. He punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation. Now that makes some people go, man, seems like there's a reality of generational curses that if dad does this, there's a spiritual reality that lasts for three to four generations. The reason that I'm going to say no, and then let's open it up and then I want to talk about some spiritual realities. Here's what I'm. The reason I want to say no is this. I'll give you an example. I will not say who and I will not say where. When we were adopting, we had some people who came from a more hyper Pentecostal background who they literally gave us a warning against adopting. Like, hey, man, watch out. You may bring a kid home that has a generational curse on their line. So all of a sudden now you start to get like, oh, bro, stuff starts to hit the pavement. Okay, what about this? Okay, the reason I had no fear of that at all, like, not even a little. A passage like this. So here's Ezekiel 18, by the way. This passage, I think, if you wanted to get real spicy, this passage, I think both is a rebuke to the hardcore generational curse crowd. And honestly, it's a rebuke to modern therapy culture. That's a whole different conversation. So Ezekiel 18, God is rebuking Israel. And here's what he says. Listen real close. He says, the word of the Lord came to me, Ezekiel 18:1. And then he says, what do you mean by quoting this proverb in the land of Israel? And here's a proverb. You say, the parents eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. In other words, apparently throughout Israel. And bro, all of a sudden this starts to sound like 21st century America. All the kids were gone. Do you know, my life so messed up because my dad did, man, you know, is this, you know, you know, why all the, all the problems in my life, do you know where it comes from? My family of origin. So that's what it means when it's. That's an ancient Israelite way of saying everything. All my problems were from my family of origin. They were saying, the parents eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. God rebukes it in verse three. He says this as surely as I live, declares the sovereign Lord. You will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For everyone belongs to me. The parent as well as the child, both alike belong to me. Watch this. This is the key verse. The one who sins is the one who will die. In other words, I don't care what your dad did, don't care what your mom did. God's going, did you sin? Then that's going to be your problem. If your dad sinned, that's going to be his problem. If you sin, that's going to be your problem. Okay, now he keeps going. Yet you ask, this is much later. Yet you ask, why does the son not share the guilt of his father? Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. So it's talking about. He had just finished talking about, why are there situations where you got an evil dad and actually end up with a righteous son? And he's answering that. And God goes, verse 20. Here's why. Because the one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share in the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share in the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. I'll give one more. And then I want to open it up. And then I want to start. I want to make a biblical connection that's like a little mind blowing. I want. Actually, I want to see if you guys ever heard this before. The other one, I'd say I think so. We may disagree here. It kind of depends on how you define curse. That's fine, let's talk about it. But I think Jesus actually cuts against this in John 9. So John 9 is a passage. Jesus walking by, the dude that's got the he's man born blind is what it says. That's the whole passage, man born blind. And then everybody looks and I think what they're doing is they were a more superstitious spiritual culture that believed in something like generational curses. And they went, they asked Jesus, man, Jesus, this guy's blind. So who sinned? This man or his parents? Here's what Jesus says. Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. So in other words, now we can go a layer deeper. And I do want to go a layer deeper. But on the surface, what I would say is I think what you're seeing there is Exodus 34 points to the reality that very, very frequently, especially when a dad, everybody, but especially when a dad does not slay dragons in his life, you better watch out because you're gonna pass some spiritual DNA. So I would just say this to our dads, hey, dads, we gotta stand up and bend the knee to Jesus. Act like men, slay some dragons. When you're fighting those dragons, hey man, you're not just fighting for you. You're fighting for your children and your children's children for the third and fourth generation.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. So that's one. It's a reality. On the other hand, I think those passages make it tough to believe in something like a generational curse as we defined it earlier. Agree? Disagree. Additional comments let's talk.

[Carlos Horaso]

It's funny because we did not know we were going to talk about this, so I wish I would have been more ready, but might as well. It sounds like it really depends on what you mean by a generational curse at the end of the day, because you said no, but then you describe something that sounds like what a lot of people would describe, describe as a generational curse.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Right?

[Carlos Horaso]

And so I think, I think you defined it as. And I'm taking notes so I can be as accurate as possible. You define it as they can't be free without somebody praying. So, like, you know, as Christians, we don't believe that, like, you. Jesus can save you or make you free in so many different ways. How I would rephrase that is that God uses some people to pray for a specific type of deliverance of some sort of spiritual stronghold that has been consistent over in multiple generations of a family. And.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And by the way, I do believe that. Okay, as far as generational influences, I do think, dude, let's just be honest, man. So it's really interesting. We got. We got therapy terms for things that have theological origins, and therapy just doesn't have the theological background. So they're, like, grasping for language that the Bible already described. Like, dude, if you go to a therapist, a lot of times what they'll do is they'll have you fill out what's called a genogram, and it's literally like, sit down and, hey, man, what issues were in your granddad's life? Oh, my granddad was an alcoholic. Oh, what about his? What about your great granddad? And they'll tell you. I want you to go find out. Yeah, they'll tell you this. Go find out. Ask grandma. Hey, what about. What about great grandpa? Did he have. And, dude, when people start filling up those genograms, what you're gonna. You're gonna start out. Oh, dang, man. I didn't realize there's alcoholism four generations deep in my family. I thought I was fighting this alone, man. Maybe there was something that was passed down, so. Or divorce.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I mean, like, stuff like that. So again, generational influences. 100. A real thing.

[Carlos Horaso]

So again, when people say generational curses, people think different things. Honestly, that's what I think, what we just described. Again, there's a. There's a. A sin that has been consistent over multiple generations, and somebody at some point. And I know because, you know, for me, I've seen this especially coming from a more Latin American background. Pentecostal. We'll talk about this in just a second. You know, and then they go through some sort of experience where somebody prays for them, and they. After that, it seems to. It just breaks that pattern that they saw their whole family go through. But now they're free and they start a new. A new legacy. Again, you see this in scripture.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

100% believe in that.

[Carlos Horaso]

So it seems like we agree. It's more. So how do we call it?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Again, here's what I do not believe. And maybe let's. Let's define our terms. This is what you want to do every time there's potential to agreement. Define your terms. Disagreement, define your terms. What I don't believe is that you can have a generational curse in terms of you can have a Christian person that's really important, a Christian person that has been redeemed by Jesus Christ that is helpless to get free from some spiritual issue in their life that they inherited from previous generations. Until whatever you want to call it, an exorcism, a deliverance moment happens. I do not believe that. The reason I don't believe that is my theology of what happens when somebody gets saved. And dude. And we can talk about this in a second one. We've talked about this before, but one aspect of the atonement is just historically been called Christus Victor.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That one of the things Jesus did at the cross is he quote, in the words of I want to make sure I get it right in the words of Colossians 2, that he is so great that he triumphed. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, triumphing over them in him. In other words, one thing he was doing at the cross is he like, he literally dunked on Satan and demons, conquered them. And then that atonement gets applied. It is the application of redemption to everybody that's under Jesus Christ. You are already in his victory over demonic forces and powers. Now that does. And we can talk about this in a second that does lead into so can a Christian be possessed by a demon? So anyway, I don't believe what I said earlier.

[Carlos Horaso]

Yes. And I would agree on the helpless part. So, you know, as Christians, we wouldn't say, of course they're not helpless. Where I think I would slightly disagree would be on the if you're saved, then like, that's it, you're good. I think. And you know, we can. Again, I wasn't ready for this conversation, but we can talk about this. Well, hey, guys, as you know, Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Christ, live free and change the world for God's glory. But here's the thing. Movements by definition move. And so if you're not moving, then the question is, are you really being a part of the movement? In fact, somebody once said that too many churches are like football games. 22 people on the field in desperate need of rest, being watched by thousands of people in the sands in desperate need of exercise. Hey, listen, we refuse to be a church like that. And so if you call Lake Pointe Church your home church, and if you have not yet Joined a service team. I want to invite you to take your next step right now. Text the word serve to 20411 and we'll help you find your spot where you can serve in person or online on whichever serve team you are being called to serve. Hey, thank you for being obedient to God's calling in your life. And let's keep doing this together. I think God uses different means of grace all throughout your Christian life to set you free. But ultimately we would agree the hope is in Christ. The hope for any generational curse. If anybody's listening to this and they say, well, man, I'm a victim because of my father or my grandfather, in Christ, you are not a victim.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right. You are a victor.

[Carlos Horaso]

You are a victor and you have freedom in him. But I think God can use different means of grace to set you free. In the same way that if you're a Christian and you've struggled with pornography or alcoholism, you don't just immediately stop or don't feel any urge. Again, there's a process there. And. And then again, we were talking about this with Paul. I think you see it more in Latin America with, with things like witchcraft or some sort of like a spiritism background, with people that have. They find out that their grandma or something like that were involved in some sort of like, occult activity that was just sketchy, weird. And then they see a pattern all throughout the different generations. And then it's like, hey, I'm a Christian now. I need to. We need to, you know, I need to find my new identity in Christ. And any generational curses is done in Christ.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, so the point of agreement that I want to highlight, though is the helplessness part. That's right. This is theologically significant because honestly, dude, I just think the Bible specifically rebukes and contradicts the idea that a saved person is helpless before a demonic spiritual power until somebody else does some sort of exorcism, deliverance, whatever you want to call it, Paul, what do you.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Building off of what you said? I love that passage in Colossians. This is in Ephesians 1, which is interesting because it has similar language where it talks about after Jesus Christ was raised, he seated at the right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, which often when that's used, it's talking about spiritual dominions there. But then what's interesting, it says, and then he put all things under his feet and gave him his head over all things to who? The heaven, the Church which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. Which is a cool little thing in Colossians it talks about how Christ is the fullness of deity. The word there is play Roma same word here. Christ is the fullness of deity. Somehow the church is the fullness of Christ. So the victory that he won he gave to us and we can have as well.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

A few things here. One I mean just to briefly go back to the Exodus passage. If anyone were to hear that try to use for generational curses. I would just like to highlight. It doesn't talk about generational cur curses here it says he does not leave the guilty unpunished and he punishes the. So this is about punishment. And if you think about the context here they're at Mount Sinai. After this they're leaving to go to where? The promised land. They send some scouts in. The scouts disobey God, they don't go in. And so what's the punishment? They have to wander in the wilderness for 40 years which would be about three to four generations at.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait say that one more time because this is. This is very significant to understand that passage and Exodus they would go.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

They would have wandered in the wilderness for 40 years which would have been at that time probably about three to four generations. And in the wondering you could say those children were being punished not for the sins they committed, but for the sins that their parents had committed. But it wasn't a generational curse. It was just the idea of it was punishment that they had to experience Same thing.

[Carlos Horaso]

How was that not a generational curse? Sounds like there is a consequence because of something that somebody else in your family did and their pay during some ways experience it like right there.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's why I just prefer the word

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

it's a punishment or a consequence.

[Carlos Horaso]

We might disagree on.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It comes down to semantics.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah it's. And that's what Cuz I'm like. I'm ask you if I hear curse. It makes it feel like there's been something put on me by an outside entity that I have no control over and I have to then be delivered from the. From the. The outside. This is about just the consequences of someone else's.

[Carlos Horaso]

But you do though. I mean not. Not that you can't. You're. You can't be delivered. That's the only part in that sense is that I would disagree.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Here's what I was.

[Carlos Horaso]

But everything else is true.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Here's what I say the pushback on. Is that the way some people think of Generational curses. Let's get really specific. I think it's easier for you. Specific examples is a dad or grandfather dealt with pornography. And then the next person does. The next person does. The next person does. It's a specific sin that's committed here. That's not what you get. Because the first generation, they didn't. They, they did not believe the Scout's. I mean, sorry. They did believe it and they didn't go in. That's not here. They simply are getting the punishment. It's not a repeat sin that they're completely committing. That's how I would distinguish here. The second part I would say is I kind of like, as I was listening to y', all, maybe the word that I would prefer is generational strongholds. That there are such a sense of generational strongholds as it relates to sins.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

By the way, for the. It's going to take a pair of scissors to get the concept of a spiritual stronghold out of the Bible. That's straight out of ephesians and Colossians.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

100%. You do see that. But what you also see in scripture is that again, those strongholds don't have to persist is you have Saul, who is an evil king, one point a good king, but then becomes an evil king. His son Jonathan doesn't follow his example.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Can I give you my favorite one?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Come on, what you got?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Can I give. Let me give you my favorite one here because I, I've been waiting for the moment for this. So, dude, here's the, here's my. Here's the best example of, like, if you want to say, breaking a generational curse, if you want to say breaking the power generational influence of sin. What are you going to say? This is my favorite one in the whole Bible. And, bro, there's a deep cut here. This last, like, took. I didn't recognize. I've been reading the Bible 30 years. I never seen this until two years ago. All right, Josiah, let's talk about Josiah. Were you going to go there? Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Next go.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So Sting of Josiah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So if you don't know who just Josiah is. Josiah, when he's a teenager. Oh, bro. A little teenager ascends the throne of Israel and God finally sees one kid that has a pure heart before him. Josiah walks in the back of the temple. I'm giving a little Josh version, and he finds an old dusty Bible that nobody in wicked Israel has read in generations. Maybe to the third and fourth generation because of the sins of the fathers. I'm going to talk about that. In a second. And he pulls it out and he starts reading it. And he's a kid that just decides, I'm going to believe what I'm reading here. And he walks right out and he starts tearing down a whole bunch of demonic idols and statues. Now, where do those come from? Let me tell you who Josiah's grandfather

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

and his dad were.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So Josiah's grandfather was arguably the most wicked king Israel ever had. A guy named Manasseh. Let me read to you. What Manasseh did is nasty. He rebuilt the high places, which was just spiritual, nasty strongholds. Demonic things. He worshiped BAAL and Asherah. He worshiped the stars. So now we're into astrology that the other pagan nations were into. I'm going to list some things. He practiced sorcery, divination, medium spiritus. He. Listen to this. He built a pagan temple to a demonic false God inside of the temple of the one true God. So, like, he's defiling every holy thing God has. The Bible says he shed innocent blood until Jerusalem was, quote, filled with it. And then to top it all off, he sacrificed his own sons in the fire. He burned alive some of his own children in worship of demonic false gods. So that's Josiah's granddad. Now, who's Josiah's dad? What about generational curses? Okay, who's Josiah's dad? His dad was this dude named Amon. Amon. The Bible says, quote, continued in the sins of his father, worshiped and sacrificed Topanga. Gods forsook the God of his ancestors. And then the Bible says he, quote, increased the guilt. So as bad as Manasseh was, this guy made it worse. I love this so much. But then Josiah comes along. He just opens up the word of God. He chooses to believe it. But, dude, here's the deep cut, dude. So what Josiah could have done is he could have opened his Bible. And here's my warning to people who overplay the generational curse thing. He could have opened his Bible and read all of it and been, you know what, man? That's great. But I got a generational curse because of Manasseh and because of Amon. But then it says this. I love this so much. All right, check this out. Listen close. Second Chronicles 34, 3. In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father, David. David was not his dad. Amon was his dad, and Manasseh was his dad. And then 2nd Kings 22. 2 says this. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and followed completely the ways of his father David, not turning to the right of life. Now, bro, here's what's going on here. What apparently Josiah did is he opens the Bible and he realizes my dad and my grandpa were demonic wicked men. But then he went, I don't gotta be who my dad or my grandpa were. He goes back up in his family tree and he finds a godly man. And he goes, I choose to make that man my spiritual heritage. I don't gotta be who my dad was because my heavenly father is my dad. And he was in my grandfather, great grandfather or whatever David I can be. And he claims the spiritual heritage of David. Now, listen, you wanna talk about that? You wanna talk about things affecting generations? So here's the deep cut. Okay, that wouldn't even be the deep cut. Here's the deep cut. So a few years ago, I'm reading, I'm studying for the preaching series through the Book of Dan. So then, dude, when you read Daniel, do you know where I'm going with this?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I don't know. I don't know where you're going.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm going to blow your mind. I'm going to blow. The Bible's amazing.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

All right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm going to blow your mind. So when you read Daniel, they take all these little kids into Babylon and then they get in there. It's Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. And all we know, we don't know much about them at all. All we know is that they were, quote, royal kids that were raised in the palace. That's all we know. They go to Babylon. This demon, demonic, you know, thing, bro, these kids stinking. Lay it down. You get in there and you know they're there and they hold the line. They're in the most powerful palace in the world, this demonic palace. They refuse to bow before golden idols. They're like, you know, the king is like, I'm actually going to burn you alive. And they're like, that's fine, but that's fine. You do that, man. But what we're not going to do is betray God. They threaten Daniel's life. Quit praying. And he's like, man, you do what you want. You throw me in that thing. I'm not going to quit praying to my God. So, like, they hold it. They're teenagers. So then you start asking the question, like, bro, where did these kids. Kids, where'd they get this spiritual backbone? Okay, let's check this out. Daniel, 9, 21. While I was still in prayer, Gabriel this is Daniel, the man I had seen earlier in the vision. So you want to talk about spiritual influences came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. Now, if I got this from John Titus, now you start noticing, you start going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you talking about, evening sacrifice? You're in Babylon. What are you talking about, evening sacrifice? Because evening sacrifice is referring to the temple schedule from ancient Jerusalem. Okay, so here's where it starts to connect. All we know about these dudes is they were quote of royal descent and nobility. Now, all right, you start doing some genealogical math, and what you realize is Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, they were in the royal palace when Josiah opens up the book of the law and leads a national revival in Israel. And these four teenagers have the discipleship they need to walk up into Babylon and resist an entire demonic power. Because one teenager made a decision many years ago to go, I'm not my granddad.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And I'm not my dad. That's my heavenly father. And I got a new spiritual heritage now. And it changes the course of the whole Old Testament.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Boom. Wow.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Can I share a personal stuff? I mean, just being open and vulnerable. You mentioned earlier genogram. I've actually drawn mine for people before.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Really? Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And if I were to draw it for y', all, you'd be cross eyed. It's pretty messed up. I think I've shared is I've shared in here before. Massive long history of divorce in my family. Literally every immediate family member, extended family member, except for I believe one has, has had a divorce. And I mean, and it's a lot of brokenness. I think I'm one of the first pods I jumped on with you guys. I shared, I mean, after I, I, I emphasize after my parents got married, my mom's dad had an affair with my dad's mom.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait, say it one more time.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

After my parents got married, my mom's dad had an affair with my dad's mom. Both couples divorced to my mom's dad married my dad's mom.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That hurts at Thanksgiving.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it's by God's grace. There's been redemption. But I'm just saying that, that it's about generational strongholds. If you want to use curses, whatever things you want to say, man, that's there. And by the way, I would be a fool to look at that and not take that seriously. I'd be a fool to look at that and say oh, I'm good. Like, no, there does seem to be some kind of a special attack the enemy has given my family in every direction on this. On the other hand, to your point, I can't look at that and say, well, I guess I'm cursed. I guess I'm just going to get divorced, so maybe I shouldn't get married. Or if I do, it's just going to happen. I just got to prepare myself for it. No, instead, it's a both and where I say, hey, there seems to be a special attack on the enemy. And, man, because that I'm going to call on every means I can of prayer and the prayer of others so that in my generation, with me, it stops by the grace of God, the cycle is broken. And if you even think about that word stronghold, if you think about it, in a war and a battle, if there's a stronghold, usually we have to have a both end of a ground war and an air war. You can't just do it by the ground war. You've got to have air support. So I'm going to call an air support through prayer and the prayer of others to try to beat that in my marriage. But then also, I've got to know that if this is history, it is on me to take responsibility and say no. I'm also going to do everything on my end to fight the grand war and beat it, so that if my marriage is struggling, I can't say, well, I guess I'm just cursed. It's their fault, it's my dad's fault, it's my granddad's fault or whoever's fault. I say, no, no. Like, it's on me to have a healthy marriage. It's on a both. And I've got to take it seriously and realize the stakes and realize I'm going to need supernatural help. And I've got to realize I've got to do everything within my power to break the cycle. So it's a both. And for me, I take it really seriously.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Here's why this is so important, and I think we're all on the same page on this. Here's why it's so important. Because honestly, man, you know, we know who listens to podcasts. Honestly, it's up. It's a bunch of dudes that don't have a spiritual background. And the reason I'm real nervous about some of the language that surrounds the generational curse thing is it puts this thing in a guy's head that, like, I can't because my dad did exactly. And do what? Here's what I want to point out. And we're all going to be on the same page on this to. To double click on what you just said, what I want to point out. You go back to that Ezekiel, that Exodus 34 passage When God describes his character, listen really close. This is so fascinating. Listen really close to the numeric values attached to the different actions of God. So God says, if you're a listener, listen really close to the nut. There's going to be two numbers that I say in this. When I quote this verse, I hope I remember it from REM So God says, the Lord, The Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and abounding in love and faithfulness, forgiving, wickedness, rebellion and sin, yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished. He punishes the children and their children to the third and fourth generation for the sins of the fathers. But then he says later, he talks about how he has his loving kindness last to a thousand generations. A thousand generations. So what you're getting is. Here's what you're getting is that the grace of God is more powerful than the power of sin. And, dude, I don't care who you are, I don't care what you did. I definitely don't care what your dad did. I don't care what your granddad did. In Christ, you don't gotta do the things you used to do, and you don't gotta do the things that your dad or your granddad did. Because in Christ, you're not the person you used to be.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Amen.

[Carlos Horaso]

Amen. And to the person that says, man, I can't because my dad did, we would say, you can, because the Son of God, Jesus died for you and disarmed the powers and authorities, and he made a public spectacle of them, triumphant over them, the cross in him. You are new. And that is good news.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's good news, dude. And again, I just want to keep saying, hey, man, you have a different dad now. You got a different dad now.

[Carlos Horaso]

So along those lines, Pastor Josh, can a Christian be possessed by a demon?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. Let me ask, because it is germane to this question and this. You get this a lot. So honestly, I'll give a little bit of a curveball answer and then let's do every Christian denomination in 20 minutes. Really fun. We're going to have some fun with this.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's great.

[Carlos Horaso]

It's a lot of faith. You're a man of faith.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, it's going to go awesome. It's going to go.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Awesome.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay. Can Christian be possessed by a demon? Now, I want to give a shout out to Pastor Mark Driscoll. This is. These are some really helpful categories. I heard it depends how you define the word possessed. So I want to do this. So let's go. Oxford Dictionary. Oxford Dictionary gives three definitions of the word possess. Number one, have as belonging to one or own. Okay, now, so belong to one or own. That's definition one. If. If you mean can a Christian own? Can a deep own a Christian? The answer is no, no, no. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son. So I just want to say this to you, man. Only one person has purchased you is Jesus Christ at the cost of his own blood. In fact, I'll just say this on this note. What some Christians will do is they'll go, okay, yeah, but God did possess you, but now a demon possesses you. And I will just gently put this out. We may get into soteriology later. A lot of people from particularly some, some not all Pentecostal backgrounds that have a strong belief in that you can lose your salvation. They'll go, okay, you did belong to Jesus, but now you belong to a demon. So I would just say somebody goes, hey, Josh, can a Christian lose their salvation? Well, here's what I would say. The Bible says this salvation belongs to the Lord. So the question isn't whether a Christian can lose their salvation, but whether God can lose a Christian. The answer is no. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. So praise God on definition number one. One, if by that you mean, can a demon own a Christian? No. Okay, definition number two. Oxford Dictionary have possession of as distinct from ownership. So if that's your hat and I borrow it, but it still belongs to you, I have possession of it, but it doesn't belong to me. I actually think in one, I would qualify some language around this. In one sense, I would say yes. So here's the analogy that sometimes would be used. And what I would do on this, if I'm pointing to a passage is I would go to two things. Number one, when you read the word demon possessed in the New Testament, the Greek is literally just one word. Paul knows this. It's just one word. It just is demonized. So in the same. So think about the word fossilized. It's very, very similar. Fossilized. In other words, over time, a person lent themselves to this demonic activity. A sense, something like that. And over time, there's this thing that Starts to crystallize or form in you. The analogy that I would give is if you think of your life like a house, okay, you're the legal resident of your home. Nobody else has the right to move in. Watch, this is really important. Important without your permission. This is really important without your permission. This is why Jesus. And again, I'm stretching an analogy. There's more I want to say. When Jesus talks about how he came to bind the strong man, and he specifically is talking about. He's talking about a home and a strong man. I got to buy in the strong man so I can plunder his goods. He's talking about, hey man, I'm the strong man. I came to. Jesus came to bind the strong man that you know in quote unquote, possession of the home. Here's what I would say. What you can do even if you own a home, is you can invite a bunch of people in. Hey man, let me open my door to you. I can't come on in, that kind of thing. And then they can decide to stay and they can make your life pretty daggum miserable. We call them squatters. So they got. They possess no legal right to be there, but they are very willing to squat. Watch this until you exercise your legal authority to evict them.

[Carlos Horaso]

Interesting, dude.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I would say in one sense, I think on rare occasions when Christians give themselves over to habitual sin, radical forms of unbelief, dark addiction, I honestly, dude, listen, I'm gonna keep saying this. Some. Some people laugh at me, mock me. Tinfoil had the thing, occult activity. All the Ouija boards and sorcery and healing crystals and all this stuff. Like, hey, bro, get rid of that stuff. Stuff people. Is that stuff real? Yes, it's really demonic. What I would say is Christians can. Through those things. They can potentially, I might use this, you know, imperfect language. They can open a door to internal demonic influence that has no legal authority to be there and it can be immediately evicted in Jesus name.

[Carlos Horaso]

Amen.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's two, three. Let me do one last one. Let put a boat on it. If you define possession, Oxford Dictionary definition number three. An ability, quality or characteristic. An ability, quality or characteristic. Okay, if you're going to define possess like that, that's another one. I would say, yes, I'll go back to the New Testament. The Greek terminology for demon possession is very frequently demonized, fossilized. And what it's saying is, in the same way that if something fossilizes, it takes on the characteristics of stone. In the same way, man, you can do things and you can manifest demonic character or say things that have a demonic origin. Dude, I think you're gonna have to. It's gonna take a pair of scissors to get out of the Bible that sometimes a Christian do that. Here's my analogy and y' all disagree with me, that's fine. Let's, we can fight about it. When, when Jesus says to Peter, so Jesus goes, hey man, here's what I'm doing and here's my plan of redemption. And Peter's like, never, Lord, we're never going to let that happen. And Jesus looks at him, he says, get behind me. You say it, get behind me.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Satan.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

When he does that, he's not talking to Peter. He's not talking about the person, he's talking to the spirit behind the person. Jesus is, he knows, hey man, I came out of your mouth. But it came from the father Elias. It came through you, but it came from him. So in that sense. Yeah, I'd say so. In those second two senses I think you might say yes in the first sense. Let me just say this definitively no. And here's how I'd put a bow on it. If you're a Christian, you can be oppressed by a demon, but you can never be possessed by a demon. Why? Because you are a blood bought possession of the living God.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Amen in there it is.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Agree, disagree. Additional comments.

[Carlos Horaso]

You got it.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Well, I was going to defer to you on this one.

[Carlos Horaso]

Go ahead.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You're the local charismatic, you're the generation

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

expert in the room.

[Carlos Horaso]

I'm preaching the gospel of freedom. Christus Victor Jesus.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, hey, hey.

[Carlos Horaso]

I'm not the generational curses.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

God.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Live free.

[Carlos Horaso]

Live free. That's right. Jesus name.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I'll say to you real fast in this, we talked a little bit this off air, we were talking about, we joke about, about the generational curses thing which, which is there is a thing more like in western countries and modernized civilizations about sin being. Oh, it's just personal responsibility which by the way, in part it is. We hit that earlier, don't have to recap again, but the idea of I've got to take responsibility for mice and my decisions. But I will say there is much more attunement in other parts of the world. The idea of it is that. And there are spiritual forces of darkness that we have to resist that can attach themselves to different sins that we are susceptible to. And so like for example, I did some ministry in Dubai one time and we would do these labor camps at night and we would be ministering at people from all over the world.

[Carlos Horaso]

Wait, you've been to Dubai?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Carlos Horaso]

Have you ever been there? No, I have not. But I was going to say, I'm going to celebrate. Every time Paul has been somewhere, I'm going to celebrate that. That's what I'm saying.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm just like, I'm a celebrator.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's great.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

You've never been.

[Carlos Horaso]

I've. I've never been to Dubai, and I would love to go someday.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Go someday. But Someday.

[Carlos Horaso]

But I'm glad you have.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Me, too.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Anyways, it says something about Paul that he made it to the Muslim country before making. That's a joke.

[Carlos Horaso]

Hilarious.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

To share my faith.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

To share my. Go ahead.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Anyways, so, yeah, so like, these would be people from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan. Really hard places to get to. But that was part of the strategies. They'd come in, they'd work during the day and be these. They were camps at night. So we would eventually share the gospel with them. But the first story we would tell them out of scripture was the story of the demoniac who was like, they had to chain because he was so possessed by them. And they were just falling on every word because there's much more attunement. Like, this is a real thing. There are demonic forces. And so even when I'd say with believers, to your point, while we cannot be possessed, we can be oppressed, and we can invite that in. It's not just always. It's usually not against our will. We're inviting them in, and they will gladly take whatever inch and space you can give them. So to your point, I think we need to be more aware that while yes, sin is something we have to take responsibility for in our actions, we can also invite darkness into our lives that will take every inch and lead us into more sin. That'd be the only thing I'd say on that.

[Carlos Horaso]

That's great. The Bible says that sin can be passed on from generation to generation. I think in a similar line, but on an encouraging side is faith can also be passed from generation to generation.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right, Carlos.

[Carlos Horaso]

And so speaking of passing faith from generation to generation, what we've seen in the history of Christianity is that. That there's been groups of people that have tried to do that. And what they've tried to do is they've tried to preserve what they believe was important and essential to the faith we call those denominations today. And so I want to.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

From demon to denomination. There's no connection between those two words, by the way.

[Carlos Horaso]

And so now some people have done that. Well, other people, not so much. Some have divided unnecessarily. Others have faithfully contended for what is true until today. And so what I want want you guys to do, help me understand every single Christian denomination in the next 20 minutes. Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Thanks for tuning in today. Hey, today's conversation on generational curses and demon possession went a bit extra long. And so once we got into the conversation, there was too much to unpack and honestly, we just didn't want to rush it. So instead of cramming everything together into one episode, we decided to do a bonus episode, dropping this Wednesday, May 20, where we're going to be breaking down and explaining every major Christian denomination in about about 40 minutes. And so we're going to be talking Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Orthodox, non denominational churches and more. What they believe, where they came from, what makes them different, which disagreements are secondary and which ones actually matter. And honestly, it's just going to be really fun. So if you've ever wondered, why are there so many denominations? Are denominations a good thing or a bad thing? What's the difference between all these churches or even how do I know which one to trust? Don't miss Wednesday's bonus episode. Make sure you subscribe, turn on notifications and we will see you then.