Can You Be Pro-Life AND Support The Death Penalty? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary: Can You Be Pro-Life AND Support The Death Penalty?

Podcast: Live Free with Josh Howerton
Host: Lakepointe Church
Episode Date: October 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

Main Theme:
Pastor Josh Howerton and co-host Paul Cunningham (AKA “the Epistle Missile”) tackle the complex cultural and theological question: Can Christians consistently be pro-life while supporting the death penalty? They break down scriptural principles, church history, and cultural issues, including the Pope's recent statements equating abortion, capital punishment, and immigration policy under the umbrella of pro-life ethics. Alongside, the discussion touches on God's sovereignty, overcoming fear and anxiety, roles of individuals versus the state, and the biblical basis for justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Acts 23 – The Apostle Paul, Fear, and God’s Providence

• Deep Dive into Acts 23 (07:46 – 22:10):
  • Paul’s shrewdness before the Sanhedrin – He addresses them as equals, leaning into the rift between Pharisees (“Bible literalists,” believed in resurrection/angels) and Sadducees (“progressive,” denied supernatural elements).
  • Paul's actions fulfill Jesus’ prophecy in Luke 12: Holy Spirit gives supernatural wisdom and words to believers under persecution.
  • Discussion of Ananias’ corruption, Paul's rebuke as “whitewashed wall,” and parallels to future events.
  • God’s sovereignty highlighted: Paul's escape from a murder plot, the “divine necessity” (Greek: “dei”) theme in Acts/Luke.
  • Memorable analogy: “When you’re in a storm, you may want answers, but what you need are anchors.” (23:27, Paul)

2. Personal Testimony: Overcoming Fear and Anxiety

• Pastor Josh’s Experience (25:00 – 44:39):
  • Josh shares his 8-month struggle with acute anxiety, panic attacks, and spiritual darkness, drawing lessons for those facing fear.
  • Key insight: Faith is not the absence of fear, but choosing to trust and obey God in the midst of it. “Faith doesn’t eliminate fear, it overrides it.” (29:59, Josh)
  • Seven Practical Steps for Overcoming Fear:
    1. Encouragement: “Encouragement is a superpower in the Christian life... it literally means putting courage into someone.” (31:00, Josh)
    2. Confession: Sometimes healing comes not from new knowledge but from sharing what’s hidden in the heart (36:17).
    3. Wise Counseling: Seek biblical, reliable counsel.
    4. Replace Rumination with Meditation: Focus your mind on God’s promises and past faithfulness instead of worries.
    5. Do the Fear Anyway: Avoidance feeds anxiety; faith starves it by facing it.
    6. Prayer: “A peace that surpasses understanding only comes when you give up your right to understand.” (40:49, Josh)
    7. Look to the Cross: Even if you don’t know why you’re suffering, the cross proves God’s love is not in question.

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3. Is It Consistent to Be Pro-Life and Support the Death Penalty?

Background: Papal Statements

• Clip Played: The Pope says, “Someone who says I’m against abortion but says I’m in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life… Or in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants … I don’t know if that’s pro-life…” (49:08)
• Josh and Paul break down the confusion caused by blending these issues under ‘pro-life.’

Scriptural & Historical Arguments

• The Bible’s Distinction (51:12 – 54:00):
  • “The Ten Commandments do not say ‘You shall not kill.’ They say, ‘You shall not murder.’ There were two different Hebrew words: one for killing, one for murder.” (51:26, Josh)
    • Killing is taking any life (sometimes commanded/allowed in Scripture, e.g., state justice).
    • Murder is the unjust taking of innocent life (always forbidden).
  • Genesis 9:6 and Romans 13 cited as biblical support for the state’s use of capital punishment in cases of serious crime.
• Catholic & Protestant Church Tradition:
  • Quotes Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin, both affirming death penalty as a lawful role of civil government for the common good (58:35, Paul & Josh).
  • Historically, early church and colonial America saw state justice—including public executions—as compatible with Christian ethics.
• Role of Individual vs. State:
  • Josh: “Progressive Christians often wrongly take individual commands and apply them to the state—Jesus’ teaching on mercy or welcome to immigrants are for individuals, not a prescription for government to ignore law and order.” (53:58)
  • “Governments are commanded to execute the death penalty in just circumstances, for a very specific reason: to preserve justice and protect the innocent.” (57:41, Josh)

Immigration Policy

• The Bible commands Christians individually to show kindness and hospitality to immigrants/sojourners.
• However, the state biblically retains the right and responsibility to enforce borders and laws for the protection of its citizens.

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4. Distinguishing Ethical Issues: Three Types

Paul Cunningham’s Chart (64:32):

• Not all issues mentioned by the Pope are “pro-life" in the same way, but all are “imago Dei” (image of God) issues.
• Summary Table:

| Issue | Rights Involved | Historic Position | Open/Closed Debate | Scriptural Category | |------------------|-------------------------|------------------------------|--------------------|--------------------------| | Abortion | Innocent life | Universally opposed | Closed | Murder (forbidden of all)| | Death Penalty | Due process/justice | Historically affirmed for states| Open (application)| State justice (Romans 13)| | Immigration | Humane due process | Both law/order & compassion | Open (policy) | Love for sojourner, but states given border responsibilities |

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5. Justice, Mercy, and the Role of Government

• Romans 13 Explained (67:42 – 73:31):
  • The government is “God’s servant… who does not bear the sword in vain” (death penalty) for the good of society (Romans 13:4).
  • Justice is the government’s primary role. Mercy and personal compassion are individual Christian responsibilities.
• Memorable Quote:
  • “Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent.” (78:53 quoting John Adams, paraphrased by Josh)
  • “We don’t enforce immigration laws because we hate people on the outside, but because we love people on the inside.” (82:38, Josh)
• Example Clip: Seattle mayor advocates for extreme empathy over justice, leading to city-wide lawlessness—a “real world” case of government failing its biblical role (76:23 – 78:53).

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Faith does not eliminate fear, it overrides it.” – Josh Howerton (29:59)
• “If you didn’t know, encouragement is a superpower in the Christian life. It literally means putting courage into someone.” – Josh (31:00)
• “Abortion is not open for debate, biblically. The unborn baby has the right to live, period. Capital punishment is open for discussion in application... Immigration is a balance of compassion and law.” – Paul Cunningham (64:32)
• “When governments stop doing their job of justice and instead start doing the individual’s job of mercy, mercy to the guilty becomes cruelty to the innocent.” – Josh (78:53)
• “We don’t enforce immigration laws because we hate the people on the outside, but because we love the people on the inside.” – Josh (82:38)

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------|-------------| | Vacation Setting, Nickname Banter | 00:49–07:46 | | Acts 23 Deep Dive | 07:46–22:10 | | Overcoming Fear & Anxiety | 25:00–44:39 | | Papal Statement & “Pro-Life” Debate | 49:08–62:03 | | Church Tradition on Death Penalty | 58:35–64:32 | | Table/Chart Explanation | 64:32–67:42 | | Romans 13 and Role of Government | 67:42–73:31 | | Seattle Mayor—Mercy vs. Justice | 76:23–79:24 | | Immigration—Biblical Application | 81:06–82:38 | | Closing Prayer and Farewell | 82:38–83:43 |

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Tone and Style

The episode is conversational, direct, biblically grounded, laced with humor and real-life application. Josh and Paul don’t shy away from controversial topics, aiming to equip listeners to think “Christianly” about difficult issues—in church, culture, and politics.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers clarity for Christians wrestling with nuanced ethical issues—abortion, capital punishment, and immigration—by distinguishing personal from governmental responsibilities, rooting arguments in Scripture and tradition, and urging believers to pursue truth, justice, and mercy according to God’s design. It’s a must-listen for anyone encountering cultural pressure to view complex moral questions as “all or nothing,” and a rich source of encouragement for those struggling with fear or anxiety.

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For further study, check Lakepointe’s show notes and recommended resources mentioned in the episode (e.g., David Barton’s "The American Story," Josh’s blog post on anxiety).

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Well, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Paul Cunningham, and coming from, as of now, an undisposed undisclosed location celebrating fall break and.

[A]

Hey, man, we're. Listen, we're going to gonna call this the Gulf of America episode.

[B]

So it's no longer an undisclosed location. So you are somewhere around the Gulf of America right now?

[A]

I'm looking at the Gulf of America right now. And so this. I'm gonna go ahead and give the pod listeners heads up. We're on family vacation, but I refuse to miss any time with my kids. So my kids right now are out with mama and Pop Pop doing some things. If the kids come back early, the pod ends early because I'm a dad before I'm a pastor, so. So we're gonna get right at it. Maybe a little shorter today. But you know what I. What I like to tell people is, man, there's parts of your job that they gotta pay you to do. There's parts of your job you do for free. Teaching the Bible is the part I do for free. And so this is. This is fun just to do on vacation anyway.

[B]

Nah, that's awesome. Well, how's. How's vacation been? You're celebrating a huge thing like 20 years of marriage.

[A]

Hey, man, that's huge.

[B]

Pastor Josh, congratulations.

[A]

We did. We just. Thank you, man. 20 years. We went out last night and little fun fact, we were actually married down here in the Gulf source area. So it's fun to be back, man.

[B]

So good. Well, we've got a dangerous episode today, mainly because Carlos is not with us and he is not here to rein us in and get us from chasing too many rabbits. And so you and I are going to do our best to really stay on track and to stay. Stay focused on the things we want to talk about. But we've got.

[A]

We've got a fun time coming up. Yeah, I was going to say we Got some. This is going to be fun. 1. Now we're probably going to move a little faster than usual. Yeah. But there's some really interesting stuff from Acts 23, a mega theme in Paul's teaching that a lot of people miss. But. And then. So we're going to hit some that we're going to hit. Overcoming fear is a big part of this. Big part of my testimony, too. And then back half. We're going to talk. We're going to talk is we're going to ask the question, is the Pope Catholic? And then we're going to talk death penalty. How can. So here's where we're going to go. How can Christians support the death penalty but oppose abortion and then also support, in the Pope's words, the enforcement of border laws and basically illegal immigration stuff? So really interesting comments from Pope. We want to help people think through that stuff. It's going to be fun.

[B]

That's right. Hey, before we jump in, I just want to thank you for liking. And subscribing. It is the easiest way to stay up to date on any new content that drops, including a special episode we actually recorded earlier this week. But anytime we drop that, if you're subscribed, you'll get a heads up. And listen, our YouTube channel has just under, as of this week, 400,000 subscribers. That's an increase of almost 30,000 people just since the last episode.

[A]

Can I get. I'm going to give a shout out. So first of all, and real quick, I want to talk about the top votes for your new nickname.

[B]

I was trying to change the subject so you didn't have to, but in a second.

[A]

Well, I'm going to do it.

[B]

I want to share an insider story of a recommended one for my family that didn't get up there. But you go ahead. You go ahead.

[A]

I can't wait to hear it. Dude, this is amazing, man. This podcast, man, just teaching people the Bible, teaching how to look at the world through the lens of the scriptures. I won't say who or which platform because he did not give me permission, but, and I haven't told you guys this yet, the CEO of one of the largest, how would I say it? One of the largest digital media companies in America texted me two days ago because he and some of their people have started watching our pod and he just wanted, he's like, man, I've never heard Christians talk about this stuff before. Protestants talk about this stuff before and, and so want to have a conversation. It's actually really interesting. So when people I know this sounds silly when people share this stuff, especially when you like it rate it on itunes. Apparently, this guy was telling me the rating on the itunes is a big deal. If what you're hearing is helpful to you and you want the message to go out, that stuff actually really helps us. So, man, thank y'. All. It's. It's. It's working.

[B]

And just so you people know, when we say that, we're not simply just. We're not trying to build a platform for us, really. We're just. We know that people are filling their minds and their hearts with different things throughout the week on social media and on podcasts. And we just wanted to help people fill their hearts and minds with the truth of God's word and also how to think through cultural issues that we're bombarded with all day. And so it's really just about trying to put truth in people's hearts and help disciple them the best we can. We've also reached 5,000 subscribers to our show Notes. Some of our newer viewers might not know this. Oh, yeah, it's awesome. But, like, every episode, we compile, like, key takeaways, main highlights. But then we also put some questions in there that you can discuss with your life group or maybe a group of friends or even with your family. We do this because we. We believe that discipleship best happens in the context of relationships. And really, the next step after this podcast is to talk about it with other people. To get the show notes, all you have to do is text notes to 20411 and we'll send them straight to your phone. Or you can go to Lakepoint Church Shownotes. Well, before we actually jump in, you know, you mentioned the nicknames. I was really trying to bypass this. Oh, go ahead.

[A]

Well, I'm just looking at him right now, Paul. So here were the people were supposed to comment on the YouTube video. Potential nicknames for Paul Cunningham. Well, I'm looking at Powerhouse Paul. I'm looking at Primo Paul.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Ah, I'm looking at some. Somebody said. Somebody said patient Paul because he waits patiently for Josh to stop talking.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Which is all great. What have you got?

[B]

Well, so earlier this week, I walked into our house, and my whole family was actually listening to the podcast. It was actually pretty cool. I came in to listen to you praying, and you were praying over. It's actually a really cool moment. And so one of their first things that they started talking about was, hey, what's your nickname? And so one of my family suggested Polar bear Paul because I'm very pale and because I'm cuddly. But then another member of my family, who I shall not name, said, well, that won't work because he doesn't have enough hair.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And in that moment, the fleshly part of me was thinking about a story from the Bible where someone was made fun of for their lack of hair. And then he called down bears on them, you know, connecting the bear thing. But then it was my own family, so I didn't do that. But, yeah, prefer not to be called Polar Bear Paul if possible. But I'm really open to anything more.

[A]

I'm looking at. Okay, another one that I thought was hilarious because obviously we've been talking through a lot of the Apostle Paul's writings. Somebody said we should call you the Epistle Missile. That's amazing. That's amazing.

[B]

Actually, I like that one.

[A]

That's not bad either.

[B]

That might be win or winner. I'll let you decide. Or maybe we should wait for Carlos to come back and you two can vote. But I'll defer to you. I'll defer to you since you're the one that's gonna have to this. I'll defer to you to pick whichever one you want to do. You want to wait a week or do you want to do it now?

[A]

Let's get. Let's keep moving. I'm going to go down to the beach with my kids here in a few minutes.

[B]

That's good. That's good. Well, hey, let's go maybe a little bit deeper into Acts 23 in terms of maybe what didn't make into the sermon, but a lot of great nuggets and details from these texts. Anything that stuck out to you or just things you wanted to highlight for people.

[A]

Well, stuff I want to say is we are so stinking blessed at Lake Point to have Mike Bro in our teaching rotation. One thing so things that didn't make it into the sermon, but also things that people don't know about the preacher. So, Mike Bro, I'm just gonna say I didn't plan on talking about this. People don't know Mike Breaux. Mike Bro was the senior pastor of one of the largest churches in America. Church absolutely exploded in the 90s and 2000s. Church like 10,000 people in Lexington, Kentucky. I actually grew up when I was learning to preach. I started like getting Mike Bro sermons and listening to them in high school and college, learning how to teach. Then he went to a church called Mike was a teaching pastor at what I think at the time was the largest church in America. And when he. He's just one of those dudes that when he retired, he just loves Jesus and loves his family more than he cares about being famous. So just retired real quietly, moved so he could be around his grandkids. The guy mows widows lawns in his free time, meets with a bunch of. He probably won't even like me saying this, but you know this. I'm allowed to share his good works, even if he's not. That's right, Because I want to honor the man. He meets with a group of recovering addicts at Starbucks at least once a week, does a Bible study with them. He's just a good man.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I just want to say it before we go on, like, we are insanely blessed to have that guy so godly, so humble.

[B]

What I love is anytime he preaches for us, if you walk out before, after the services, he's just walking around, just shaking hands, talking to people you would never know. In fact, that's actually one of the things I love to do is sometimes if people are new or they don't know him, and he's just out there hanging with people, and then they. He gets up there like, oh, that's the guy I was just talking to. Just because he's just so humble, such a good man.

[A]

He's the best man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, Paul. So I actually do have this. There's some really interesting stuff hidden in this passage. And then we're gonna get into it, and then we'll talk Pope, death penalty, all that stuff. But let's get into the word first. Paul, can you summarize real quick before I kind of click on some things? Just like give the 60 second sketch of what happens in Acts 23.

[B]

Yeah, well, in Acts 22, Paul had been seized, and so he had been put on trial. Big riot potentially happened. And then what happens in Acts 23 is he is brought before a Jewish court called the Sanhedrin. This is kind of like if you had took the Supreme Court, the Senate and the Vatican and kind of wrapped it into one thing, and he's really brought before.

[A]

Wait, say that one more time. That's a good analogy.

[B]

Oh, basically, if you took like the Supreme Court, the Senate and the Vatican and kind of wrapped it in. That's the Sanhedrin. So Sanhedrin would have been fantastic. Oh, thank you. It would have been 71 people, which is really modeled after Moses and the 70 elders from numbers, I believe, 11 that were there to kind of rule Israel. At that time and lead Israel. And so these were just basically a council who is going to decide not his fate because they actually technically weren't allowed to sentence anyone to death, but they were basically going to balance. So basically he is on trial again before a new group and he is having to give a defense of why he is there.

[A]

Okay, so let me say a few things that are really interesting about this. So first of all, you could not have set that up better.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

A couple things are really interesting. If you go Back to chapter 23, verse 1, it's very interesting. Bible commentators, I love studying these passages, man. Bible commentators point out that historically what people would do when they address the Sanhedrin is they would stand up and they would say rulers and elders of the people. In fact, I think elsewhere in the New Testament, that is how the Sanhedrin is addressed. It's very interesting. When Paul stands up, he says, men and brothers. In other words, he addresses them as equals. The reason he does that, as you well know, Epistle, missile, Paul, as you well know, the reason he does that is because Paul himself had been a Pharisee of Pharisees. So, you know, again, we hit this last week. It's like you got the Navy and then you got the Navy SEALs, you got the army, you got the Army Rangers. Paul, when he said last week, I was a Pharisee of Pharisees, The Pharisees were part of the people who comprised the Sanhedrin. And Paul was gone, dude. I was like the elite of who you are. So it's just very interesting. He addresses them as equals in a historically unique way. So you mentioned this. The Sanhedrin was comprised of two groups, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. It's very interesting. The Pharisees were honestly. Well, that's a bad analogy. So I won't make it. The Pharisees were the Bible literalists. They were the one who were like, dude, we take the Bible real seriously. We believe every word of it. And as we talked about last week, you can be very religious and very not redeemed. And that's who these guys were. So they were like, we believe the Bible. We're all in on all the things. And they were just super legalistic and their hearts were far from the love of the Father. On the other hand, you had the Sadducees. And what Paul does here, it's actually a really cool little Jedi mind trick, is Paul, because he had been part of this little Sanhedrin group. Paul knew that the rift between The Pharisees and the Sadducees was that the Pharisees believed all the Bible, including the supernatural parts. The Sadducees were more like first century progressive Christians. If you were. This is. You had to be a Bible nerd in the early 2000s to the late 90s to know who this was. Paul, do you remember the Jesus Seminar?

[B]

Oh, yeah, big time.

[A]

John Dominic Spong, all these guys who like, they. In the late 90s, early 2000s, this was like, they were in like Time magazine all the time. And these guys were on the search for, quote, the historical Jesus. And so they would try to like all the supernatural stuff. The Bible is definitely not true. So let's just. How do we scrape through all that and get to who the historical Jesus was? Well, honestly, dude, the. The Sanhe or the, The Sadducees, that's who they were, is they didn't believe in the resurrection. They didn't believe in angels, they didn't believe in demons. They believed in, you know, obviously, because they didn't believe in resurrection of the dead. They didn't believe in a future judgment. You know, all the things.

[B]

And real quick, just obviously. Can I just put in real fast?

[A]

Well, keep going. I'm sorry. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt your fill. Keep going.

[A]

No, no, Well, I was gonna say. I'll say one thing and then you fill it in. The little preacher joke is obviously, which is why they were so sad. You see? You know, that's it. Now what were you gonna say?

[B]

I killed your joke. I apologize for that. Yeah, no, you're good. You were setting it up and I killed. I killed the moment. No, if people wonder, well, how could they have read the Old Testament and not believed in it? It's all throughout. Well, it's because the Sadducees would have only accepted the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Levicus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and so they would say, hey, there's not clear indications of these things there, so we're not going to accept it. They would not have accepted the rest of the Old Testament. As authoritative. So if you're like wondering, how did they get there? That's how. But to your point, where you were going earlier, actually, Paul does something brilliant here is actually Jesus at one point said, hey, I'm sending you out into the world. And he says, be innocent as doves, but be sh. Serpents. And he does something very shrewd. And so basically he leans into this rift and he's like, hey, I'm just here because I believe in the resurrection of the dead. And all the Pharisees who believe in the resurrection of the dead, like, well, we don't see why this guy should be guilty. We like this guy. We're on his side. So it's actually a really brilliant move because it divides the council and basically gets to a point where they can't pass judgment on him. So really, actually shrewd, brilliant move of.

[A]

Leaning into that, which, by the way, super interesting when he does this. So if you're not tracking with what Paul does in the passage, what Paul does in the passage is he's in front of the Sanhedrin and he goes, I'm on trial because of my belief in the resurrection of the dead. And he knows I'm stepping right on the fault line between those dudes and those dudes. They're going to get so busy fighting each other, they're not going to come against me. So this is this little Jedi mind trick he does right here in Acts 23. Now, what's really interesting is personal opinion. This is a little Bible conspiracy theory. This is. This is Josh. We don't know this for sure. I think what Paul does here is a fulfillment of what Jesus says will happen in Luke 12. So I'm gonna. I'm read this. So years before Jesus warned before his crucifixion, resurrection, he tells his followers, when you are brought before, and listen what he says. Synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say. So if you're wondering, like, dude, you watch a passage like this, you're like, man, that was supernaturally brilliant of Paul to do. And I would say you're exactly right, because Jesus told Paul the disciples years earlier, the Holy Spirit will give you supernatural genius when you stand in front of and he says synagogues and rulers, which is what we're dealing with here. So I just, I find that very interesting.

[B]

That's good. Well connected to that. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

[A]

You. You. I got a few more little things. Do you. What do you got here? You got something on?

[B]

I'll let you go first, then I can fill in any color.

[A]

That's good, that's great. I don't have a ton, so. And then we could keep moving. So Ananias, right here is the chief priest. It's very interesting from what I understand from study this week, when he. So Paul Paul, Paul tells him. So he, if he says something and Ananias commands Paul to be struck on the mouth. Now very interesting, if I'm understanding this correctly, that actually was a violation of the rules of procedure for the Sanhedrin. Josephus, I did not know this until this week. Josephus, Jewish historian. He records Ananias as being a very corrupt chief priest and records him as having stolen tithes. He was like stealing tithe dollars from getting to lower ranking priests, abuse of power, that kind of thing. So here's what's really interesting. So when he orders Paul to get struck on the mouth, Paul fires right back. God will strike you, you whitewashed wall. And some people think that Paul's words there actually were prophetic because Josephus records what ends up happening to Ananias after the closing of the New Testament canon. He ends up getting hunted and killed by these Jewish nationalists because he had like this enmeshed relationship with the Roman Empire. So some people would go, when Paul says God will strike you, that that actually was a prophetic word that was ended up being true because he got assassinated. So I just, I think this is interesting. Couple other, I got two little other things and then I want to hear what you got. This is a little fun little tidbit. I like this stuff. What Paul says here is after he says God will strike you, you whitewashed tomb, whitewashed wall. Some people like, how dare you insult the high priest. And Paul goes, oh my bad, I missed it. I didn't know that was the high priest. Some people think that's because Paul's eyesight was really bad. If you're newer to the Bible, you may not know this. Galatians 6:11. There's actually two passages that indicate Paul had extremely bad eyesight. Galatians 6:11 mentions Paul. He's like, Paul goes, hey, you may notice in my letter I'm writing with really, really big letters. And he's going, because I can barely see. So that, that may have been why. And then here's the last little Bible conspiracy theory that's fun to think about. So in Acts 23, you know, back half of this is, I think it's 40 guys, if I'm remembering right, they make this little pact, we're not going to eat until we kill the apostle Paul. So if you saw the movie Sicario like 15 years ago, 15, 20 years ago, that was Benicio Del Toro and Josh Brolin were in that movie. Sicario is named after these Jewish assassins. They were called Sicarians. And some people think that's who these guys were, that this was a little band of Jewish assassins. In fact, Simon the Zealot, a lot of people think was one of these Jewish sicari. Sicari was named, they were named after a little, it was called a sika, which was a dagger. And they were these Jewish assassins. Some people think that's who these little 40 guys that make this pact, we're going to kill Paul. Where this little group that the movie Sicario was named after. So fun little Bible fact. Now that's what I got. What did I miss, Paul?

[B]

Oh no, you get some great stuff. I think just a few fun tidbits. Even just this is a really small one. But the teenage nephew that's mentioned is the only mention of the Apostle Paul's family in the entire New Testament, as you get it here. And he just happens to be in the right place at the right time. And the way I kind of, the reason I said it kind of just happens to be is that in I'd say this passage you really see God's sovereignty and his protection on Paul throughout the passage. There's this little word that's used in this passage, but it's actually extremely prevalent throughout the book of Luke and Acts, which if people don't know, is really a two part work by Luke. He wrote the Gospel of Luke and then he wrote the book of Acts. And there's this little word called day D E I Day. It's used 34 times in Luke and Acts. And often it carries a sense of divine necessity like this must happen. And it's God's will that this is going to happen. And so it is going to happen. And so even when Jesus appears to Paul in this passage, say you must. That is the word day, you must. It is necessary for you to stand before Caesar and then look what happens. These guys are kind of plotting this. And then it just happens that Paul's nephew is right there and hears it. And then the Roman commander sends 470 soldiers was what he basically sent with Paul. That would have been 200 foot soldiers, 200 spearmen and 70 horsemen to protect him. So that's great that you have 40 guys. If you see that coming, you're going to avoid it. And so it's just an example of just God. When God wants something to happen, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it. And so God's got Paul's back. And really this is leading up as we're going to be going over the next couple months, like God is going to get Paul to Rome so that he can testify before Caesar and before them in Rome. He's going to happen. And so that's just kind of a cool little thing, good little reminder that God is with us and sovereignty in control of all things, including these seemingly insignificant details.

[A]

Yeah, man, that's one of my favorite old Puritan quotes, the Providence. So I'm reading this book right now on vacation. By the way, dude, put this in the show notes because this is a dagum good book. I'm reading the. It's called the American Story, is by David Barton. David and Tim Barton. And it's, it's just, I'm a World War II history guy, so I decided to go Revolutionary War on vacation. And this book, it, the book tracks. It talks a lot about the faith of the, the guys involved, the Revolutionary war that founded the nation, all this stuff. But it talks so much about the providence of God. And dude, even in stuff like this, like the Lord moving in the hearts of these leaders who were not aligned to Paul, they were not on Team Jesus yet. But what you get is one of my little favorite Puritan quotes about the Providence of God is behind a frowning providence, there lies a smiling face. And it's just that thing of like, hey, man, you know, no matter what's going on in my life, I know, I don't know why what's happening is happening, but I know who is in control of what's happening.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a peace and a settledness that deposits in the heart of a Christian. And you see that in this passage. It's really cool, man.

[B]

That's so cool. Part of what Pastor Mike got into in his sermon was the idea of fear. And I think that perfectly segues us into it because one of the things that I even talk about sometimes off that is that, man, sometimes when you have stories, the natural reaction is to be afraid for sure. But even to your point, to kind of tie up the sovereignty thing and maybe jump into, hey, what do people do? To kind of move past fear is I tell people, man, when you're in the middle of a storm, sometimes what you want are answers, but what you most need are anchors. Like, if I'm in a storm out on a ship, like, I'm not going to pull up my phone and say, oh, what is the meteorological explanation for the storm I'm in? No, at that point, if I'm in a storm on a boat, I need anchors that can hold me and there's a few anchors. I always point people to that man, if you're a believer in Jesus, that God loves you, that's shown first and foremost, ultimately, for all time on the cross. But then. And then I also tell people like, God is in control. And so even if you can't understand it in the moment, an analogy sometimes I'll use is basically when they're making a tapestry, this brilliant piece of woven fabric, if you were to zoom in either at the top or the bottom, depending on how they make it, you would see hundreds and thousands of little threads that are going in every direction. It seems like chaos, but in reality, if you zoom out, there's a master craftsman pulling together all those threads exactly how he wants them to make this masterpiece. And so I tell people, like in these moments, like with Paul here and in our own lives, we. One reason that we can live without fear, press on even in the midst of fear, is because we can know that God is in control of every little detail, whether it is having Paul's nephew there or the things that are in our lives. But with that being said, you know, you mentioned maybe just what are some. What are some things in terms of encouraging people of how they can get past some of the fears in their lives that they experience?

[A]

All right, well, this is super personal to me. You know, people have been around Lake Point for a minute. They know that it was in 2019, and I had this, you know, eight months of. Of pretty severe anxiety attacks. And, you know, that for people who are newer, I'll just. Here's the short thing. Before then, honestly, man, when somebody said they had an anxiety attack or a panic attack, I'd think, oh, man, that's. That's a cute Gen Z way of saying you had a bad day, you know, and then it happened. It happened to me, you know, where it's like. And there's a. It's a physical thing, you know, it's like, you know, fingers and toes start tingling, lose sensation in your body, heart pounding. You think you're gonna have a heart attack, throw close up, trigger your gag reflex, you know, all that stuff. And that happened to me for about eight months. And, you know, I hopped in somewhere and diagnosed with. They called it agad, Acute Generalized Anxiety Disorder. And that lasted for about eight months. And the only thing that I can say it was, it was the worst. Not even close. It was the worst. A hell that I cannot describe for about eight months. You know, genuinely, without exaggeration. Eight. Eight months without one moment of what I would call a normal human happiness. No ability to do anything for every waking second except just think about the last time it happened and then be totally consumed with the next time it's gonna happen. And man, we don't, you know, someday that's. That may be worth a more extended time of the pod. You know about. There's so much that went in, into what that experience was like, comes and goes in ways. But here's what I would say. I'd say a few things because fear is one of the overarching. It is a universal human experience from the enemy. In fact, you'll just notice this is Paul says in Romans, chapter eight says, because we have not been given a spirit of fear by which we fall back again into slavery, but we've been given a spirit of sonship by which we cry abba, Father. And really what, what Christians begin to understand is there's like, there's a normal human experience of fear, but then there's also a satanic, supernatural experience of fear where fear becomes not just a feeling, fear actually becomes a spirit. And what you don't want to do as a Christian is, is, you know, there can be the kind of. The language I'll use is, man, it's normal for a human to have fear on you. That's normal. But something's wrong when you let it in you and it almost becomes a spirit on you versus in you is what I'll say. So let me just say a few things here about fear because nothing will stop you from fulfilling your calling and doing the things that God put you on this planet to do more than fear. It's Satan's, I think his number one tactic. That and condemnation, one, I'll say a misconception. And Paul, I'd love. If you get. If you got extra thoughts on this, I think it'd be helpful. I think a lot of Christians mistakenly think and do this. This is. This becomes crippling. Christians mistakenly think that fear and faith cannot coexist. They think that fear and faith are the opposite. And you'll even see this, man. There's actually worship songs that I've asked our worship team many years ago, I was like, hey, don't sing that. Or if you're gonna sing that, let's change that lyric because it'll imply that fear and faith can't coexist. And here's the problem is if you believe that fear and faith can't coexist, then every time you feel fear, you also start to feel shame, conviction, guilt, condemnation. Because Then you mistakenly think, oh, because I feel fear, I must not have faith. So then on top of your fear, you layer this condemnation experience of man. I don't have faith also. But actually it's actually the exact opposite that actually in the Bible, I don't even need faith if I don't have fear. If I don't have fear, what do I need faith for? And if you go back to Joshua, chapter one, when I was coming to Lake Point, this is a passage that God threw some people just. It was a prophetic word of encouragement. They gave me a few back. Joshua, chapter one. Joshua is taken over for Moses, legendary leader there. And he's scared. He's like, dude, I'm not. Don't know if I'm able to fill his shoes. And three times, three times God tells Joshua, be strong and courageous. Strong and courageous. Strong and courageous. Why? Because Joshua felt weak and afraid. Weak and afraid. Weak and afraid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here's the big idea is that fear or faith, it does not eliminate fear, it overrides it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Faith is not the ability to not have any fear. Faith is the ability to trust God in the midst of your fear and do it anyway. And the reason that every Christian, I think, needs to understand that again is if you don't, then whenever you have fear, you're falsely going to feel that condemnation of, well, man, I must not have faith. And so number, I think honestly, number one first step in overcoming fear is understanding what it is and is not. And it is not an absence of faith. Now, before I go on, Epistle missile, Paul, anything you would add, subtract or.

[B]

Multiply there just a hearty amen. I mean, just really just some color is. Fear is the necessary prerequisite for faith and courage to exist. It's even my mind went to, as you were talking, the passage where Jesus literally says, don't be afraid. Sal can do his disciples says, don't fear. I'm sending you out a sheep amongst wolves. Which is when you would want to be afraid. Like if. In other words, like. And I was thinking, you know, usually think about like, even like with our kids or really with anybody usually when we tell people, don't be afraid, it's because we're about to be in a situation where that will be a natural feeling for them to feel. And so like, with that being said, if you look throughout scripture, the places where God tells people not to be afraid, is it precisely because he knows they're going to be a situation where they're going to feel that feeling? And he doesn't want them to be crippled by it. So if anything, I would just say, like, no fear and just coming against things that make us doubt are just a part of the ball game. For the Christian, the question to what you said is, are we going to be crippled by it and let it come into us, or are we going to push past it and let our faith conquer it? So, no, just.

[A]

Right on, man. That's. Yeah, I mean, you just nailed it, man. That's it. Well, let me. Okay, so let me just say for the person and you know, even if you're not there right now, you need to tuck this stuff away, because again, whenever God begins to move you, whenever the spirit of God begins to move you towards an action, a spirit of fear will try to keep you from that action. So I think every Christian, you've got to have down deep in your spirit. What do I do? When fear becomes the blocker? What do I do? So let me just say a few things from my experience and then from the word about this, and here's why I'm. What I'm going to say is, man, if you have friends that they struggle with, you know, anxiety, that's a word we'll use. Or panic, that's another word we'll use, that kind of thing. What I'm going to say right here is what got me out of it. And so I'll just. I'll just say this. And this is not everybody's experience. I had those eight months of acute, very acute anxiety. I have never had it since. I. I'm. I'm more free when I'm teaching now than I was before then. In fact, that's a whole different podcast. That little season broke some things off of me that I needed. Broken. And so I can say with complete integrity, and I'm not saying this, that will happen for everybody, but. But genuinely, like, I got freedom from that, and it's not a thing for me anymore. So let me just say a few things. I'm going to say seven fast things. And then I wrote a blog post way back then because so many people reach out to me that experience, that same thing. We're going to put that blog post in the show notes. And I wouldn't. If you got friends that are going through that, send them that or send them this podcast as maybe a helper. So I'd say a few quick things. Number one, when I was going through that season, honestly, dude, the number one thing that helped me was encouragement. This should not. This should not be A shocker. It's one of those things like we. For some reason, we just. Encouragement sounds kind of like, boring and lame. It's actually like a superpower in the Christian life. And just think about the word encouragement. It literally means encourage. You're putting courage into somebody. So, dude, I had these friends, and I'm gonna name them. I had these friends, J.R. lee, Ryan, Viscount. He was one of those guys. I had a pastor in Kentucky, Daniel, another pastor named Josh over there, that they would text me and check on me constantly. Hey, man, how you doing? And then, dude, they would say things like this. They would say things like, hey, Josh, it won't be this way forever. Or they would. And they would send me little verses, like from the Psalms, where David prays, surely I shall see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. And they would just. Because when. If you didn't know this, you've never been through a season like that. What anxiety does. The number one lie is it convinces you things like, you'll never be happy again. It's always going to be like this. People hate you and they don't want to have anything to do with you. You know, things like that. It's just the enemy does lies. And so when you got to surround yourself with other. With a band of brothers or a band of sisters who are going to encourage you from the word. So that's number one. Let me do the others quicker. Number two, this is a misconception. Some Christians are really bad at this. It's the mistake of Job's friends. A lot of people think when somebody's going through fear anxiety, Christians, especially ones who have the spiritual gift of teaching, they think, oh, man, what this person needs most is to get a new truth into their mind. And so they just start talking, talk, talk, talk, talk. And honestly, what I found is a lot of people going through anxiety. This was me. They don't need to get new information into their head. They need to get something that's in their heart out through confession.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

So they might not need to get something in. They actually might need to get something out. So honestly, and I won't go into this, in this podcast, there were some things I had going on in my heart that I didn't even realize were there. I had some unprocessed grief. I had some very frankly, I had some unconfessed sin that I didn't even know was there that just started bubbling up. I had these doubts that just were just, like, lurking in these dark recesses And Jana is the best listener God ever made. And she just sat there and I said the darkest things in my heart out loud to her. And she just looked at me and she loved me, and she prayed the love of the Father over me.

[B]

Praise God.

[A]

And number two, I'd say is if you get in a deep spot of fear, anxiety, like, figure out what's going on and say the darkest things in your heart out loud to another Christian who will listen to you and love you in the truth. Number three, I did do counseling for a little season there, and we've talked before about, hey, man, when you're getting counseling, you got to make sure you're getting wise counsel. There's foolish counsel, evil counsel, and wise counsel. So I did get wise counseling from really Jesus y dudes. So that was number three. Number four, this is a. This was a big one. Is, man, you got to. Here's the language I'll use. You got to replace rumination with meditation. So when you get people. If you've never been through a season, like, acute anxiety or even just worry, honestly, man, just like normal home depot grade worry, then, you know, it's rumination. What rumination is, is. It's just. It's thinking on replay about the bad things that might happen. Well, what the Bible tells us to do is, it says, I will meditate on his wondrous works. And where rumination is filling your mind with lies and rehearsing in your mind things that haven't happened that you're afraid will happen. Meditation is filling your mind with truth and reminding yourself of the wonderful things that God has done and that have happened.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

So the little thing. And it was this season of my life. You may have heard me say this in my teaching. It was this season of my life where that little phrase, forgetfulness, is the greatest enemy of faith. Because when we forget what God did, we stop believing what he'll do. It was that season of my life where, like, all I could think about 24. It was like a mind splinter was just. I was just thinking about the next time I get on stage how I might have a panic attack in front of 10,000 people and lose my job. And my family's not gonna have a way to. I'm not gonna have a way to support my family, you know, all that stuff. And what I had to do was. It was like fighting an aggressive fight for my brain. No, instead of thinking about that, I'm gonna remember what God has done.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm gonna remember his promises. To me. And I'm gonna memorize them and replace those things, the rumination with the meditation. Last three. Let me do them real quick. I would just give an encouragement to people who go through a little season like that is I would say, man, one thing my counselor told me is, hey, Josh, the way out is through. And I'm not saying this is universal for everybody, but what he told me, and I think he was right for me, is he was like, hey, man, every time you feel fear about stepping on stage to preach, he was like, every time you avoid it. So every time you tap out of preaching, he was like, you're feeding the beast of the fear, and it's going to get bigger. But then he said, every time you do your fear, you're starving the fear and it's going to get smaller. And so, dude, this was honestly the hardest part of everything is he was. What he said was. He said, the way out is through. The way out is to do your fear anyway.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And every time you do the fear, the fear will get smaller. And you're replacing a spirit of fear with a spirit of sonship that cries Abba, father. That goes, wow, God was a good dad. And he got me through it one more time, and the fear gets smaller. So faith is a muscle, you know, the more you work it, the bigger.

[B]

It gets to connect that. For some people, that. I'll let you finish up the other two. It's just, you know how you get over having a fear of roller coasters? You write them. I mean, it's really that simple. Now, I know at the moment that could be tough, but even when I go to a theme park, when I go over to Six Flags, every time I go, I hate going up the roller coaster. I love once it goes down, but without fail, every time I feel this nervousness. But you know what? It goes away when I actually do it. So just connect that with people. I think we all know this, but I think, again, we get to that fear. Like you said, you just got to push through and do it. And then over time, that fear dwindles. So keep going. I'll let you finish out the other two.

[A]

Yeah, you can do it, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Last two, man, is. You know, this. This is one of those things that can sound like a Christian cliche, but it's actually true. It's prayer. It's. Man, it's. It's. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

It's. It's that when we pray, there's A peace that surpasses understanding. And I just want to point out to a person that's gone through fear or grief, it's, it talks about a piece that surpasses understanding. And what that means is that in order to have the peace that God wants to give, you have to give up your right to understand. And that's, that's honestly one of the hardest things. I just want to say that one more time. A peace that surpasses understanding. So if I want that peace, I have to give up my right to understand. And when you're walking through a severe pain, and honestly, anxiety is a form of pain. There is, there's like this, right, this indignation in you of like, why, Like I was going like, God, you called me here, you moved, I moved my family here. And now I'm having this why. And honestly, man, it's like the why question is so unhelpful.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because in order for me to get the peace, I got to give up my right to understand. And just instead of why, I got to replace the why with a what. And the question you have to begin to ask is, what, God? Like, I really trust you because you're a good dad and you give good gifts to your kids and you give me a spirit of sonship. So hey, what are you trying to do in me? Like, you know, what's the, what is the, the part of my character that you're wanting to form? What's the thing about your character that you're wanting to teach me? And honestly, man, you can really only learn those things through prayer. And, and so I would just say, like learning to pray. Very, very honest prayers. The collateral damage of true prayer is peace. Like, it's like, how do I know, how do I know when my heart and spirit have really engaged in genuine prayer with the Father? Peace. Okay, and then the last thing I'll say, and then, and then we can take an extremely hard emotional gear shift and talk about the death penalty. The last thing I'll say is, is you gotta look to the cross. Like, you know the little theology phrase nerd thing that we'll talk about sometimes on this POD is being cross centered or gospel centered people. And some of that, sometimes that phrase gets misused, but it's still a dang good phrase. And so the reason I say that you gotta look at the cross is. So in that last thing I said is, you can't start asking why. The why question is real unhelpful. But here's what you can do. This is all this is like me riffing on old Tim Keller is when you look to the cross, man, if I get emotional, this would be a spot. When you look to the cross in the middle of your pain, you are never going to know all the reasons for why God allowed your pain. But when you look to the cross and you see the Son of God being crucified for you, you know what the reason can't be? It can't be because he doesn't love me. I can't think that anymore. It's the. It's the. It's the Romans verse of, if he. He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all, will he not also, with him graciously give us all things?

[B]

And then he goes on to say, what can separate us from the love of God? What, bro? Like, nothing. Nuclear Bo.

[A]

Nothing, man. So it's, you know, you're in that spot. You just got to look to the cross and go, man, I don't understand the whole reason for why all this is happening to me. But I'm looking at that bleeding guy on the cross crying out, father, forgive Josh Howerton, for he knows not what he does. And I know that the reason can't be that God doesn't love me so good. So those are my seven. What you got? You got anything?

[B]

No, Those are incredible. I think, for time's sake, because I know your kids may be about to. About to burst in and join us on the podcast here in a few minutes. Potentially, we may need.

[A]

If the kids come back early, the pod is, man, I'm a dad before I'm a pastor.

[B]

That's right. And so, listen, if we don't get to some stuff this week, we can always pick it up next week and maybe give a little bit more color and detail. But as you mentioned, we probably are going to take one of the hardest right or left turns maybe in the history of this podcast now, go from that to the Pope and to the death penalty and to abortion and all that kind of stuff. So, Pastor Raj, how would you like to go about this? Do you want to maybe set up and show them the clip of the pope, or do you want to dive in and maybe give them some preparatory stuff? How do you want to go about it?

[A]

It. All right, let me say a few things on this. So, first of all, one of the reasons this, the pot, that we become aware the podcast has grown so fast is in part because of what we're doing. Like, hey, man, let's take current events, cultural events, and let's see. It's like we're not supposed to just look into the Bible. Look into the Bible. We're supposed to actually look through the Bible like a lens through which we view the world. So let me explain a little bit of the strategy behind this, and then I want to watch this clip that went like, mega viral on the Pope. So what I'm trying to do as a pastor is I think of discipleship through the categories of air war and ground war. Ground war is when discipleship. Ground war is applying the gospel to people and families. It's making disciples on the ground, applying it to people and to families. That's ground war. That's the main thing that church does. But then there's ground war. But then there's also air war. Air war is when we take the gospel and the scriptures and we apply them not just to people and families down here, but to the culture out there. And let me explain, just for people that are wondering, like, man, why do they, like, every week talk about these cultural issues? Well, here's why. Because just like, like I said, I read a lot of military history. It's just a little side gig. Just like in an actual war, if, if a, If a military force has ground supremacy and they win all the ground battles, but they have no air force, like literally no air force presence, they can't wage air war, then every time the they win battles on the ground war and take ground, it actually doesn't matter because then the enemy's air force just swipes back in, wins the air war, bombs them, and undoes all the winds that they just did. Well, what happens to a lot of Christians is churches and pastors, they'll do a great job at the ground war, applying the gospel to people and families. But then because we're not doing a good job of air war, applying the gospel to culture and all the things out there, then our people walk out of the church, and then they're listening to news feeds every week and reels and podcasts and, you know, higher education and all those things. And if the church won't disciple people, the world will. So the world is doing air war. And what will happen is if we don't do that, then our people will walk out the door and they will get reverse discipled out of the things that we just discipled them into. So the reason that we're doing this, what we're about to do on the podcast, is we want to be a church that does a good job of both air war and ground war. Applying the gospel to people and families in here and to culture, politics, all the things out there, there. So that's why we're doing this. Now let me set this up. Hey, POD listeners, coming to you from my bedroom because I forgot to stick to the podcast, want to invite you to the sermon series we're starting this weekend that I'm really excited about. That is answering the question, what is going to happen to you 60 seconds after you die and how do you receive eternal rewards in the kingdom to come? Answering a lot of end times questions, judgment of Christ, return of Christ questions. Going to be a lot of fun. Title of the series is Run to Win, starting at all times, services and locations at Lake Point this weekend. See you there. So this went like mega viral. And listen, quick caveat. We love our Catholic brothers and sisters, but in contradiction to some beliefs of the historic Catholic Church, the Pope is not infallible. And the Pope had a fallibility moment. He says something that was not quite a win this week. Week. So let's check this out. This went like mega viral. And then let's talk about this real quick. Paul. So here we go. Last week.

[C]

Someone who says I'm against abortion but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro life. So someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants who are in the United States. I don't know if the. That's pro life. So they're very complex issues. I don't know if anyone has all the truth on them. But I would ask first and foremost that there be greater respect for one another and that we search together both as human beings, in that case, as American citizens or citizens of the state of Illinois, as well as Catholics, to say we need to really look closely at all of these ethical issues and to find the way forward as church. The church teaching on each one of those issues is very clear.

[A]

All right.

[B]

All right. So are those all pro life issues?

[A]

All right, let's talk about this real quick because the reason I want to bring this up is a lot of Christians will get this thrown at them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Christians that are. And by the way, all Christians should be pro life.

[B]

Yes, full stop, 100%.

[A]

Let me just. All Christians everywhere. It's the uniform testimony of church history. Literally, I'm just. This is a whole little rant. Literally. The early church formulated a pro life anti abortion position literally before the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized, like all the way back to the Didache. So let me just say that. So, but Christians who oppose abortion, you'll get this thrown at you. Oh, man, you Christians, you oppose abortion, but you're pro death penalty. Or they'll look at stuff like he just did. It sounded like, by the way, that post from Chicago, that was a very Chicago thing to say. I'll just say that. That was a very, very Chicago, progressive Christian thing to say. So they'll do that. They'll go, oh, man, you oppose abortion, but you're pro death penalty. You're not really pro life penalty.

[B]

You only care about people when they're in the womb. But then when they're out of the womb, you could care less. Kind that kind of stuff.

[A]

Yeah, you're not pro life, you're just pro birth. That's what I'll say. So let's talk about this real quick. All right, so first of all, here's the question. Why is it that a lot of Christians right now are for the death penalty? Heads up, we should be against abortion. Heads up, we should be. And a lot of Christians right now are for the enforcement of border laws and immigration laws. And heads up, I'm going to say we should be. I'll talk about this here in a second. So they may go, well, well, you know, those things seem inconsistent. So let me riff on this really quick. And then I'll say it's not inconsistent at all. Actually, it's extremely consistent. So what a lot of people do is the mistake they'll make is they'll think, hey, the Bible is against death or the Bible is against killing. And they'll point to one of the Ten Commandments that says you shall not. And they'll quote it like this, you shall not kill. Now here's the big idea. The Ten Commandments do not say you shall not kill. It says you shall not murder. There were two different Hebrew words, very distinct Hebrew words, one for killing, which is any taking of human life, and one for murder, which is the taking of innocent human life. What the Bible forbids is murder, the taking of innocent human life. Okay, so think about this. Killing is the taking of life. And oh, by the way, sometimes the Bible commands killing. And I'm going to talk about that there in a second. So the Bible sometimes commands killing, but murder is the taking of innocent life. And the Bible always forbids murder. So the big point is the death penalty, rightly administered, is killing, but it is not murder. Yeah. Which is the Bible. The Bible actually prescribes the death penalty, commands the death penalty in some instances.

[B]

Do you Want me to give one.

[A]

Right now or just say that it bids murder? Please actually give them. Yeah.

[B]

Genesis 9, 6. I was actually going to refer this because I got. I have a chart ready to maybe help people walk through the distinctions between these issues. But in Genesis 9. 6, it says, Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed. For God made man in his own image. And so in other words, basically, this person that was killed, was murdered. Better way to say it was made in God's image. And then basis of that, that's the basis for which then it says, hey, that person should then also be put to death. Because as we'll get to in a few minutes, sometimes we'll say, well, hey, the person who is putting. Being executed by the government, they were made in God's image and they are made in God's image. And by the way, they are do certain things which we'll get to here in a few minutes. But the problem with that line of thought is this actually the image of God which Genesis 9 uses as the basis for capital punishment, not to do capital punishment.

[A]

So, yeah, that's exactly right. And let's just play this out. Okay, so what's really interesting is here's where Christians will sometimes struggle is they'll strike. And especially Protestant Christians will struggle between distinction of the role of the individual and the role of the state in the Bible. So for instance, and especially people who, progressive Christians in particular, they really struggle with this one thing. This is a whole different podcast. One thing that progressive Christians do is they'll take all of the commands that are given to individuals in the Bible and they want to apply all those commands to the role of the state. So they'll take things like, hey, man, Jesus said not to live by the sword, so governments shouldn't execute the death penalty because we're not supposed to live by the sword. Or Jesus said, the Bible commands us to welcome the immigrant, stranger and the sojourner. So that means that governments should have open borders and welcome all immigrants. Or Jesus said, to feed the poor. And so that means the government should have, you know, redistribution of wealth and unlimited welfare programs. What we have to understand is we need to think Christianly about these things. The Bible very clearly distinguishes between the role of the individual and the role of the state. This is why, for example, Jesus forbids and discourages individuals from, quote, living by the sword. But the Bible commands in Romans 13, governments to bear the sword. Now, if you're a thinking Christian, you're going, okay, huh? Well, why Would Jesus discourage living by the sword? But then Romans 13 command governments to bear the sword because the Bible distinguishes between the role of the individual and the role of the state. You can actually do that with immigration. We can do this here in a second. The Bible. Let me just say this. I want to continually affirm this. Christians can have disagreements over immigration policy. What no Christian anywhere can disagree on is that we are commanded to, as individual Christians, show kindness and mercy to immigrants. So immigrant. This is hilarious. Can you hear that? Do you hear that banging, bro? I'm gonna show you this. So, dude, guys, literally cleaning the window on this. On my. Can you wave?

[B]

Hey, that's awesome. Congratulations. You're famous.

[A]

That's amazing, dude. Cleaning the windows of this thing. We're on the 23rd floor of this sucker. I would not do that job. No, you can actually do this with immigration, too. So you may go. Like, thinking Christians will go, huh? Well, the Bible says. Really fun thinking Christians will go, man. Why does the Bible command us to love the sojourner and care for the immigrant, but then the same God that commanded. That commands the people of God and encourages and provides for, in the book of Nehemiah, them building a border wall to protect their borders. And I think it's in Leviticus 28 is. I think, where it was like, God is literally warning the people of Israel, if you are indiscriminate in the immigration that you allow, then eventually he says your nation will be overrun by. In that case, I think he uses the word foreigners, and he says, eventually you will become the tail and they will become the head. So you may be going. Well, man, how in the world could it say to love the immigrants and sojourners over here, but then God blesses the nation of Israel building a wall over here. Again, because the Bible distinguishes between the role of the individual and the role of the state.

[B]

We're with you, Pastor Josh. Don't be worried about that guy. We're with you, bro.

[A]

This is hilarious. This is absolutely amazing.

[B]

This is a first. This is definitely a first in the live free podcast history right here. Well, if you don't on.

[A]

Well, I just want to get it. So then. So. So this is why, again, governments are actually commanded in contradiction to what the Pope said there. Governments are actually commanded to execute the death penalty in just circumstances that are outlined by God, limited circumstances, for a very specific reason. We'll get into here in just a second. So I just want to say it is both. It is biblically inaccurate, logically insane, and out of Step with the tradition of the Catholic Church itself to oppose the death penalty. So one question I want to ask is, is the Pope Catholic?

[B]

Well, this is actually what I was going to bring up was a quote from a guy named Thomas Aquinas, which, if people don't know him, he is the giant theologian in Catholic history and Christian history. And he says this. If we consider a man in himself, it is unlawful to kill any man. But notice what he says here. A man in himself. It's really what you just said. If we're talking about individual people, it is unlawful to kill any man. And here he's talking about murder, not self defense and stuff like that. But then he goes on, nevertheless, the slaying of a sinner becomes lawful in relation to the common good, which is corrupted by sin. So in other words, he's saying, hey, if we're talking about individuals, no, that is sinful. But when we're talking about, in the greater context here, as he's talking about nations and stuff like that is we're talking about when it's for the common good, in certain instances it is actually lawful. And even Calvin, so we're going now Protestants, he's talking about, he uses the word magistrates, which has become very popular on X lately for certain Christian pastors to say that, to use the word magistrates. I'm just going to say to you, if you're listening, it's normal for Calvin to say that and he sounds awesome when you say it. You kind of sound Amish and so just not the most common word. But yeah, so anyway, anyways, magistrates ought to do their utmost to prevent the liberty of which they have been appointed from being in Paris. In other words, to protect people's rights. If in this they are sluggish, they are perfidious traitors to their office and their country.

[A]

Ooh, there's a word.

[B]

Untrustworthy or deceitful is what perfidious means. So like those are just two. There's so many more. I could highlight that throughout most of Christian history. I say most because you have some early Christians who were more pacifist. But we have to remember for those early Christians, that was before they had any kind of responsibility or ability to actually exert influence in the empire. And then all of a sudden, when Christians found themselves responsible for administering justice, you had people like Augustine who had to say, well, wait a second, we still live in a fallen, broken world with crime and with evil. We have to administer justice and we have to do it in a different way. So that's just the thing. For most of Christian history, people have seen the role of the state is to curtail injustice. And sometimes, sometimes that requires the death penalty. One thing I think it'd be helpful here, though, to help people think through this. I made a little bit of a chart just to kind of walk through these things quickly.

[A]

Go ahead. Before you do this. Hang on. Before you do this. So, first of all, by the way, this book, again, sticking to the show notes, this book, the American Story by the Bartons. It's amazing. So, first of all, very interesting. The pastors in the colonies, I did not know this until this week. Week, bro. These guys. These guys are some dudes. But one of the things they did, the pastors in the colonies in around the founding era of the United States, they were summoned to preach sermons at the public executions when the government administered the death penalty. And let me just say that because they were affirming, this is a good. It is. It's sad. Is it sad? Yep, it is sad. Sin makes things sad. But they were affirming, this is a good, righteous, and just thing. And they were summoned to preach so that the effect of the administration of the death penalty. One, they would call the person who was being executed to repentance because they wanted their soul to be saved. But two, they would preach so that the people would rightly stand in fear of committing the crime that led to the person's death. Oh, I'm here. My kids. So we're gonna wrap this up real quick.

[B]

We'll wrap it up real quick.

[A]

So I'm gonna do this. And I want you. I want. I want you to do your. I want you to do your chart real quick here. I want to. But let me say this. So I just. I looked up some Catholic. So the question is, is the Pope Catholic? I got two other. I got two other quotes. So, like, this is literally. This is a catechism of the Council of. This is from the Council of Trent. Okay, so this is Pope Saint Pius V. Another. This is the Pope. Okay. Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities. He's referencing Romans 13, which says that governments bear the sword. When it says bear the sword, it's specifically referencing both the use of military force to. This is how church historians have typically interpreted it. Both the use of military force to ensure peace and protect their borders, and two, the administration of death penalty for righteous, biblically defined means. So another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities to whom is entrusted power of life and death. By the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the commandment is the preservation. This is really important, is the preservation and security of human life. So this is what. What Christians need to get in their head is they can look at the things like the death penalty and not only, but especially people who are more wired towards empathy and compassion, like a man. It feels mean. You know, actually what's mean is allowing people who murder other people to continue in their behavior or to not administer a severe enough consequence that it puts literally the fear of God in the rest of the populace to discourage the tyrannical behavior. So this is what he's saying. He's saying, no, this, it prohibits murder. And the commandment is the preservation security of human life. Now, the punishments inflicted by the Civil War authority, this is really important, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David in the morning, I put to death all the wicked of the land that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord. That's Pope Pius V. So the question again becomes, is the Pope Catholic Now? Do you want your. I'd love to see. You got a chart?

[B]

Yeah, I've got a chart. We can put it up there for everybody, really. I created this just to help people think through this biblically and rationally. And so here's what I would say is that we've already said this, but kind of even sum it up that these three issues that the Pope mentioned, abortion, capital punishment, immigration, they're not all pro life issues, but they are all imago DEI issues. Imago DEI is a fancy way of saying image of God coming from Genesis 1, about how every human is created in the image of God, and because every human is created in the image of God. In these issues that we've laid out here, people do have certain rights and things that are due them. In the case of abortion, that unborn baby has the right to live, period, full stop. That baby has the right to live in capital punishment. The one who has been murdered or been wronged has the right to justice, and the one that's been accused of wrong has the right to a fair trial, to due process, to all those kinds of things, because that person was created in the image of God. We want to make sure they get a fair trial due process, because that is a weighty thing. If we are saying they are worthy of having their life taken, that's a weighty thing. So we want to make sure that we do that right. With immigration, we would want to say that, as you mentioned this earlier, Pastor Josh, every single immigrant is created in the image of God and therefore, therefore is worthy of humane treatment and is also worthy of due process. But then this is where we got to be careful because I think what the Pope did is he then blurred all the lines of distinction between these categories and they're different. So I'll just walk through these briefly and if you're listening and not watching, you can go watch this later. But then also basically, if you can kind of imagine three distinct columns that are separated from each other and what the Pope has tried to do is blur them. So all the same thing. And they're not. Because if I'll just kind of walk across these for each of these. Abortion involves the taking of innocent life. Capital punishment involves the taking of guilt, whereas immigration does not involve taking life at all. So these are very different things. Historically, abortion has been opposed by Christian tradition universally up until recently, in just the past 50 to 100 years. As pastor Josh said earlier, this was established very early on. Whereas capital punishment has historically been affirmed by the church as a role of the state, immigration has historically been seen as a balance of compassion and law and order. It's really saying, how do we both be compassionate for people who need to come into our country but also maintain law and order? Abortion is not open for debate. We did an episode on this about a couple months ago and some people want to make this an open headed issue. We can agree to disagree. We really can't. Abortion is a close handed issue. It's not open for debate. Capital punishment, it is though open for debate about application and whether Christians should be involved and in what matter. Like, we can debate those issues and we can disagree in those issues. Immigration is open for debate on what is most prudent for the nation and for those wishing to enter it. So that's where when Pastor Josh was talking about, hey, we can disagree on some of the policy issues, I just, I wanted to show people this to help people understand, hey, these are all imago de issues and we want to treat people as though they are created in the image of God, because they are, but they are all so very different from each other. And I think when we collapse and we blur the lines of distinction, it's not helpful whatsoever. Because we're beginning treating these things in a way that scripture and church history does not treat them as well. So I hope that's helpful to you. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, verbally highlight what you're doing right here with this chart. Paul, I'm gonna read this passage from Romans 13. Because if you're a Christian that is politically inclined and you're trying to figure out, okay, man, well, what is the role of the government? Like, this is a whole different thing. Someday we need to do a podcast on Kaipurian spheres and, okay, role of individual, family, church and state. They all have juris. You know, the Bible gives them each unique jurisdictions, unique responsibility. And what tends to happen is when one of those entities tries to do the role of the other entities, things start getting really jacked up. Things start getting really, really jacked up. So, for instance, this is a whole. This is a whole different thing. One of the amazing things that I'm reading this book, the American story that the founders of our country instinctively understood is they understood that because of the jurisdictions, they understood that wherever there is. I'll just put it like this. Wherever there's a. Wherever more God is always going to result in the need for less government. And more government will always result in a quote, unquote, need for less God. And that's rough language. So, for instance, whenever you have a populace that's not full of the spirit, that is not trying to walk in obedience to the Lord, Lord that is not obeying his principles, that becomes a lawless people. And so less God requires more government. You need more police. Husbands and daddies are not working hard like the Bible commands them to. So you need, you'd quote, unquote, need more welfare. So less God is always going to equal more government whenever the government gets really, really big. Well, what ends up happening is the government starts trying to do the church's job job and infringes on the role of the church, and you end up with big government, small church. Well, what we want. This is a whole different thing. Anyway, let me get to this. This is Romans 13. So we're talking about jurisdiction of the government. Here's the passage we're talking about, and I'm going to read like six verses. So, like, just. Just track with me here. Let every person be subject to governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those that have been instituted by God. So pause. There are three institutions that God created in the Bible for human flourishing. The family, the church, and the state. So this is acknowledging the fact that the idea of human governments came from God. That's the institute by God. Verse 2. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed. That's why Christians, we are law abiding people, always have been. For rulers, this is really important for rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Now pause. What that verse just said is one of the roles of a righteous government is to be a, quote, terror to bad conduct. Bro, this is really interesting. So I was watching Christians react at the, you know, Charlie Kirk memorial a couple weeks ago and Stephen Miller got up. And Stephen Miller, to my knowledge, is not a Christian, but Steve Miller got up, up and he was a. His, he was like fiery and he was speaking to the type of people that assassinated Charlie Kirk. And he was like, it was essentially like a we will hunt you down, we will give you no rest. Essentially it was an intentionally terrifying and intimidating speech. And I saw some well meaning but naive Christians saying, man, the rest of this thing felt very Christian. But when he's giving this intimidating speech, it wasn't very Christian. I actually, even though Stephen Miller is not a Christian, the principles he was articulating, they're actually very Christian. That actually a righteous government exists to be a terror to those who do wrong. So verse three, would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what's good and you'll receive his approval. Okay, now verse four, this is where we get to the death penalty application. For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong. This is a biblical command. If you do wrong, be afraid. Yeah. To use the theology nerd, the civil magistrate, the governing authority in part exists to create a society in which people are terrified of doing wrong things. Be afraid. Why? For he does not bear the sword in vain. In other words, the death penalty is a just biblically prescribed means of punishment for some offenses biblically defined. And listen, here's the big idea. It's not out of hatred for the one who did the wrong. It's out of love for the people who didn't.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's justice for the person who is robbed of a loved one. And, and it's to exist as a severe fear of God, repellent to anyone practicing that behavior in the future. This is why, and I know this sounds like that feels like a lot, the death penalty administered under the Old Testament, they were public executions. And that's, you know, reading this book, that's how the death penalty was originally administered in the United States under a very Predominantly Christian leader leadership. Why? So that it would instill, just like Romans 13 says, a terror in the hearts of people who would wish to do wrong, that they would see it and go, I don't want to do anything that would result in that happening to me. Now, last thing that it says here, for he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Okay, so there it is. I mean, you just. You got it right there, Bill.

[B]

Yeah. And I think.

[A]

I think prescription for death penalty.

[B]

And I think with that, what people should know, and you kind of hit on this, is that man scripture says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so we should never, as Christians, get to the point where we take pleasure in things like the death penalty or any kind of law enforcement, for sure. And in terms of when they have to exhibit things that seem mean to us. But what we should, in a sense, take pleasure in is justice being upheld, because God is also a God of justice. So he doesn't take personal pleasure in the wicked dying, but at the same time, he does want justice to be upheld and righteousness to be upheld. And so I think that's what we have to remember, is that if God feels that way, we can feel that way, too. That on the one hand, we would take no pleasure when things like capitalist punishment have to happen. But what we can say is good and right is when we live in a society that is just and part of God's tool right now, while we still live in a broken world, to restrain evil are things like capital punishment and enforcement. And it's really just holding these two things in tension. And I think where we go wrong to your point is when we lose one of those. When we lose one of those tension points. So. Well, Pastor Josh, your kids are home, and I know you need to go get.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think they. I think. I think we're headed out of the beach. So I'm a duck out. But last thing I'm going to say is, you know, the other thing, we almost played that actually real quick. We'll do it, and we'll wrap this thing up in 120 seconds. Play that clip. Do you guys got that clip with the sea, the thing the Seattle mayor said this week?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now don't play it yet. Don't play it yet. Let me set this up. I'm going to give you an example of what happens here. So here's. This is a perfect example of what happens when when jurisdictions get confused and governments start. You know, Romans 13 says, the role of the government is justice. So just heads up. The role of the government is not mercy. The role of the government is not compassion. The role of the government is justice. Okay, now, the role of individual Christians. We are. We are to be people of extreme mercy, extreme compassion. But then you may go, well, man. Okay, well, what happens when biblical jurisdictions get confused and the state starts trying to embody the things that the individuals are supposed to embody? Well, you're going to see an example of that in this clip. This is the mayor of Seattle. And, you know, we all know this. That's a city right now that is overrun with extreme, rampant lawlessness. I have pastor friends who were there. You know, it's the kind of thing where it's like, you can't take your kid to a children's park because it's used condoms and, you know, used needles everywhere and homeless people, you know, sleeping on all the. All the slides. Okay, well, you go, man. Well, I wonder how they got like that. Well, this is how they got like that. So toss up that. That clip of the Seattle mayor real quick.

[B]

The criminal system has had a disparate impact on black and brown communities. Let me lead with that. So when this person was committing six or seven crimes, I didn't know his or her story. Can we pause that?

[A]

Thanks. Okay, let me just say that, first of all, listen, this is a whole different discussion. It doesn't matter. Like, if you go back to. And this came from the founders, if you go back to Lady Justice. Lady justice, whenever you see her depicted in public forums, she always has a blindfold on. The reason for that is in biblical justice, Biblical justice is blind. It's totally blind to the person that is. That is being on trial. So what we can't do is it is actually unjust when we start caring about, like, ethnic quotas in how justice gets administered. Administered. It doesn't matter what color somebody's skin is. We don't care. What we care is that justice is administered. So that being said, move on. You're going to watch how this ends.

[B]

Maybe they were abused as a child. Maybe they're hungry. So my. My remedy is to find their life story to see how we could help first. I have no desire to put them in jail.

[A]

There it is. Yeah, there it is. See, what you have right there is. Yeah, I know what you have right there is. You have the. Again, you have the governing authority. The old King James would use the word civil magistrate, and he's going, man, he's going, empathy on criminals. So he's gone, man. What about their backstory? Maybe they were hungry and that's why they stole. Or maybe they needed counseling and that's why they did what they did. And again, doesn't matter because the role of the governing authority is justice. Romans 13. Here's why that really matters. How do you get a city that is overrun with lawlessness? How do you get a city where you can't go to a children's park because there's used condoms and needles everywhere? How do you get a city where pastor friends of mine have Molotov cocktails thrown into their churches and antifa members allegedly, like somebody literally shooting a church member in the back as he's walking into one of my friends churches? That is a pastor in Seattle. How do you get that? Well, here's how you get it. This is really important. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. That's what you have to understand, that's an old John Adams quote, is when the civil magistrate, when governing authorities begin doing what individuals ought to to be doing. We should be people of mercy and compassion. But when the government stops doing its job of justice and instead starts doing the individual's job of mercy, well, mercy to the guilty becomes cruelty to the innocent because then all the innocent people have to live under the fear and the tyranny of the guilty people who are still roaming free. Other thoughts there, Paul?

[B]

I think when I'll keep these short because again, I want to want to get you down to the beach, but I think everybody knows this in terms of internally at a deep core level. And I actually thought about bringing this on. But again, I was trying to keep this tight. A few years ago actually when I was living in Washington, not too far from Seattle, about an hour and a half north, there is this period of time where you had a lot of extremely left progressive cities where the citizens were trying to vote out the district attorneys because they had become so progressive in their policies that crime was overrunning the city. So I believe it was in San Francisco where they actually did vote the person. And basically, you know, he kind of put in very far left policies. And I had actually found a picture where there was a woman draped in a rainbow flag, but holding up a sign to say vote this person out because he's not helping us have law and order. So I'm saying this person was obviously not a conservative. But even people that were on the left got to the point where they realized I can't Even walk in my city and feel safe, I can't do basic things. And so I think deep down, everybody knows that if you had to live in a place where there is anarchy because of a lack of law and order or in a place where there is law and order, everyone wants to live in the place where there's law and order. So I think it's something that we know in our hearts and. But sometimes people want to judge, but when we do, it has terrible consequences to what you're saying. So, again, I think summing it all up, I think as Christians, to your point, we want to have compassion. We want to long to see the salvation of every person who's committed a crime, of every person, period. And we also want to see that this is. That we have a God of justice and righteousness in order who wants to help create that world. And part of the role that he is, part of the thing that he has done in our world is given the government that role. So we should wholeheartedly support our government in establishing law and order in our nation, bro.

[A]

And that's okay. I'm gonna say one last thing, and then I'm just gonna. I'm gonna pray us out. So, again, because Christians are gonna struggle with this, I think, for the next few years on the immigration thing, because every Christian that has the spirit of God inside of them, they will see anybody anywhere and go, man, I love that person. Person, and I want good things for that person. And so they'll struggle with the enforcement of immigration laws. But to what you just said, Paul, and to what we just read out of Romans 13, when we enforce. Let me apply what we just said to immigration, which you have right there in the mayor of Seattle, and in that mentality is you have. It's misdirected empathy. It's empathy without any limits. And when empathy runs amok again, it becomes a mercy to the guilty as cruelty to the innocent. So think about this with the enforcement of immigration laws. We don't enforce immigration laws because we hate the people on the outside of our country. We enforce them because we love the people on the inside of it. Yes. So think about in the same way that a governing leader is over the populace, in the same way that a dad is over and responsible for his family. So in the same way that, hey, man, if somebody comes to my door at 3am and they knock on the door, you better be darn sure I'm gonna vet that person before I let them come into my house and spend time with my wife and my kids. Why? It's not because I hate the person on the outside. It's because I really love the people on the inside.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The reason that we enforce immigration laws is the same reason that governing leaders, they have a responsibility to the population of a nation that they do not have to the rest of the world. And so what they have is they enforce immigration laws not because they hate the people on the outside, but because they have a responsibility to and a love for the people on the inside. So it's the same application of those things. All right, I'm gonna pray us out, and I'm going to the beach, man. Jesus, thank you for our people. Thank you for the word of God. I pray for anybody that's struggling, especially with fear or anxiety. And, Lord, I pray that you would just deposit it in their spirit right now that that person has not been given a spirit of fear, but you have placed within them a spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind by which they can cry Abba. Father, they just. Man, they got God that loves them. So, Father, I pray that we walk by faith this week in the Son of God. And I pray that you would supernaturally set people free from what the enemy is trying to use to bind them from obedience and freedom in Jesus. And I pray it in Christ's name. Amen.

[B]

Amen. Thanks, Pastor Josh.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, man. Peace.

[B]

See you, man.

[A]

Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, you be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church. Live Free. We'll see you next time.