Charlie Kirk Assassination: A Wake-Up Call for Christians | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary: Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode: Charlie Kirk Assassination: A Wake-Up Call for Christians
Host: Pastor Josh Howerton (Lakepointe Church), with Carlos Rosso
Guest: Pastor Ryan Visconti
Date: September 15, 2025

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Overview of the Episode

This somber episode responds to the shocking assassination of Charlie Kirk, a national conservative and Christian voice. In a raw, honest conversation, Pastor Josh Howerton and co-host Carlos Rosso process the event’s impact on the Christian community and broader American culture. The episode delves into the spiritual realities underlying violence in our society, explores biblical responses to grief and anger, and urges Christians to reflect deeply on the cost and courage of faith. Special guest Pastor Ryan Visconti, a close friend of Kirk’s, offers personal insight into Charlie’s character and legacy.

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Episode Structure & Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Tone: Grief and Lament

• [00:46] The hosts express heavy hearts recording in the wake of Charlie Kirk’s assassination and recent encounter prayer night at church.
• [01:21] They preview a focus on spiritual realities surrounding these events and introduce Pastor Ryan Visconti’s upcoming guest segment.

“If I seem a little less jovial than usual, that’s why.”
— Pastor Josh Howerton [01:56]

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2. Church Life & Recent Milestones

• [02:40]–[07:00] Josh and Carlos celebrate recent church discipleship wins, including fruitful sermon series, prayer nights, and Rooted discipleship group launches.
  • Rooted Launch: 3,385 people joined new groups (247 groups total).
    “Rooted is like boot camp for team Jesus.” — Josh [06:30]
  • Emphasis on digital discipleship and the church’s growing online audience.

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3. Biblical Foundation: Reflections from Acts 20

• [08:15]–[16:50]
  • The conversation transitions to Scripture, using the story of Eutychus (Acts 20), a young man who fell asleep and died during Paul’s long sermon, before being resurrected.
  • Discussion of church history, origins of Sunday worship, and the spiritual significance of the “wind door” (window) analogy.
  • Parallels are drawn between Eutychus’ fall and pervasive spiritual sleep in American culture.

"There’s just something about our nation being under a deep spiritual sleep where we're so close to the edge of something..."
— Carlos Rosso [15:48]

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4. Miracles, Healing, and the Gifts of the Spirit

• [17:05]–[34:10]
  • The hosts debate whether Christians should pray for resurrection and miracles today, reinforced by biblical and early church examples.
  • Theological discussion contrasting Cessationism (miraculous gifts ceased with the apostles) vs. Continuationism (gifts continue today).
    • How location and culture impact awareness of the supernatural.
    • Affirming the ongoing power of the Holy Spirit for the modern church.

“I'm not a faith healer. I'm a Bible believer.”
— Josh Howerton [20:48]
"...in almost every other part of the world, people are like, oh, yeah, miraculous stuff happens all the time, and spirits are real..."
— Josh Howerton [24:36]

• The Spiritual Battle
  • Real-life example: a viral “Jezebel” X (Twitter) account boasting of cursing Charlie Kirk days before the assassination ([27:20]–[28:16]).
  • Emphasize the reality of spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6).

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5. Interview with Pastor Ryan Visconti: Remembering Charlie Kirk

• [35:37]–[44:10]
  • Ryan shares personal reflections on Charlie Kirk’s deep, sincere Christian faith, humility, and focus on Jesus above politics.
  • Describes Kirk’s increasing passion for evangelism and equipping pastors, including recent church events and private spiritual conversations.

“In public, he comes off so confident and strong… but I was surprised that he was incredibly humble, kind, respectful of everyone that he talked to. He never acted like he was more important than anyone else…”
— Pastor Ryan Visconti [40:00]

• Charlie’s Public Testimony
  • [45:31–46:54] Clip: Charlie boldly confesses faith in Jesus and the reliability of Scripture during a public debate.

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6. Interpreting Cultural Violence: What’s Really Happening?

• [47:20]–[62:49]
  • Hosts and guest analyze the sources of escalating violence and political hostility in America, relating it to spiritual battle and secular ideologies.
  • Discussion of the critical theory lens, secular progressivism, and how ideological frameworks can justify violence against perceived “oppressors.”
  • The pattern of revival and rioting Acts: every spiritual awakening meets fierce, demonic resistance.
  • Christians must prepare their hearts for the costs of faith, including potential danger and martyrdom.

“Every time there's an action of the Holy Spirit, there is an equal and opposite reaction of unholy spirits.”
— Josh Howerton [51:13]

"It is a thing where… let me go back and remember, whoever did that, they weren't just trying to do something to Charlie. They were… trying to send a message… No, no, man. We are men and women of God. We have not been given a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power and of love and a right mind."
— Josh Howerton [73:11]

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7. Processing Grief, Anger, and Christian Response

• [65:12]–[71:32]
  • Biblical distinction between righteous anger and vengeance.
  • The biblical role of government in justice (Romans 13), even suggesting the biblical basis for public execution to deter evil and protect the vulnerable.
  • Importance of grieving, healthy lament, and not becoming numb by overexposure to violence.

“It’s not a sin to be angry. The Bible says in your anger do not sin. So you can be angry about injustice… harness that righteous anger for good and let it become resolved to do what’s right.”
— Ryan Visconti [68:47]

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8. Christian Courage, Hope, and the Call to Boldness

• [74:31]–[78:02]
  • The need for modern believers to count the cost, recommit to the Gospel, and not shrink back in fear.
  • Communion with God in trial—seeking a fresh filling of the Holy Spirit for courage.

"There’s a few moments in every Christian’s life where I think you need to take a long walk and ask yourself the question, am I willing to die for this? And then you need to make sure the answer is yes."
— Josh Howerton [50:13]

"We need a new filling of the Holy Spirit to be bold for Jesus in their world. Just like we need today, we need the same thing today. The same solution to a new threat."
— Ryan Visconti [77:24]

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9. Closing and Prayer

• [78:25]–[80:06]
  • Pastor Ryan leads a powerful prayer for comfort, courage, and revival:

  “Jesus, we need you… fill us with your Spirit, give us courage to be bold for Jesus, give us a heart to even love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us…”
  — Ryan Visconti [78:25]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamp Highlights

• On reflecting, not reacting:
  “What mature Christians do is it’s like, I did it as soon as I… Actually, you’re the one that texted me. I was in the middle of a workout, and you text me about Charlie getting shot. And what mature Christians do is they don’t react, they reflect.”
  — Josh Howerton [08:15]

• On miracles and the supernatural:
  “Americans are the only people who say, ‘Well, why don’t we see these things?’ In almost every other part of the world, people are like, ‘Oh, yeah, miraculous stuff happens all the time, and spirits are real.’”
  — Josh Howerton [24:36]

• On Kirk’s legacy:
  “He talked about his childhood and growing up in church… It was very clear when you met him how the Bible shaped his worldview… he was incredibly humble, kind, respectful.”
  — Pastor Ryan Visconti [39:07]

• On violence and the spiritual conflict:
  “Violence, particularly political violence, is a feature, not a bug, of secular progressivism. And every Christian everywhere needs to understand that reality.”
  — Josh Howerton [55:40]

• On personal resolve:
  “You need to take a long walk and ask yourself the question, ‘Am I willing to die for this?’ And then you need to make sure the answer is yes.”
  — Josh Howerton [50:13]

• On Christian hope:
  “Even when we’re confused and unsure about what’s happening around us, we know that you are unchanging and you are good. And you will work even bad things together for good.”
  — Ryan Visconti, closing prayer [79:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:19] – Introduction of heavy themes; Charlie Kirk assassination
• [05:18] – Launch and story of Rooted discipleship groups
• [08:15] – Reflection: Guidance on processing tragedy biblically
• [17:05] – Should Christians pray for resurrection today?
• [21:26] – Cessationism vs. Continuationism explained
• [27:20] – Spiritual warfare & the “Jezebel” account incident
• [35:37] – Interview: Pastor Ryan Visconti on Charlie Kirk’s private faith
• [45:31] – Charlie Kirk’s public confession of faith (audio clip)
• [50:13] – Counting the cost; courage in faith
• [55:40] – Deep dive: critical theory, progressivism, and violence
• [68:47] – Righteous anger vs. vengeance; grief and justice
• [73:11] – Christian response: prayer, hope, boldness
• [78:25] – Closing prayer by Pastor Ryan

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Final Thoughts

This episode stands as both a lament and a rallying cry. The assassination of Charlie Kirk is held up as an urgent call for Christians to recognize the spiritual realities at play, deepen their commitment to Jesus, and prepare to face both opposition and revival in turbulent times. Through biblical truth, candid personal stories, and theological meditation, listeners are invited to move from fear to faith and from paralysis to bold, hope-filled action.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Rosso, and I'm here today with Pastor Josh Howton wearing a Live free hat.

[A]

Wearing a live free hat, man. Hey, I'll be honest, I got a bit of a heavy heart recording this one.

[B]

It is. Yeah, me too.

[A]

So we got. Just to give people a heads up, we're recording this. I'm gonna give away a little secret. We're recording this on a Thursday. This, the day after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, and also the day after encounter prayer worship night. But anyway, just give a heads up. You know, I'm just, you know, I'm not as cheery and goofy as typical for some obvious reasons. We're gonna spend a lot of time on the back half of this podcast talking about that.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And we want to answer, you know, some questions about that. And. And we. By the way, we've got a buddy of mine, Pastor Ryan Visconti, that's going to be hopping on in a few minutes on podcast because he was actually a pretty. A pretty personal friend of Charlie's. I. I don't think I'll ask you to edit this out if I'm not allowed to say this, but he's the pastor that TPUSA asked to come over to their headquarters last night and minister to their staff. And so I want Ryan. He had some interesting perspectives on a few things, but there's, like, something very spiritual going on in our nation, and we're going to talk about it. So if. If I seem a less. Little less jovial than usual, that's why.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But I do have a lit free hat on.

[B]

I like your lift. Free hat.

[A]

We got a shot of it.

[B]

Yeah, there it is.

[A]

Yeah, we got some merch coming, man.

[B]

You know what? We didn't plan this, but comment below. Oh, and we will give one away.

[A]

This one.

[B]

That one. Okay.

[A]

Maybe I don't.

[B]

Worn by our very own lead pastor, Josh Allerton.

[A]

Comment below on YouTube. They should just comment.

[C]

Hat.

[B]

Common hat.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Common hat. Plus an emoji. Oh, of a. Of a. A cap.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Emoji. Oh, we'll get creative with it. Hey, man, thank you for liking subscribing, everybody joining. Honestly, man, by the way, these last four weeks was insane of our sermons and Live Free episodes. My goodness is insane. Like, wild.

[A]

It was, man. And honestly, I had more fun teaching the Song of Solomon series than anything I've done in a long time.

[B]

So many people telling me how helpful those episodes were and those sermons and having Jana over.

[A]

Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome, man. The. In the number of stuff, like, in the lobby. The number of people who, like. I mean, every week it was this big, long line in the lobby of, like, after week one, you said to ask a Christian girl out, and I did, and here we are.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

And then it was like a whole bunch of people getting engaged. Listen, I'm a brag on it. A whole bunch of dudes that are, like, newer to church and Jesus that had been living with a girlfriend, and they were like, oh, yes, well, Jesus said to do that. I'm going to do that. And they put a ring on it. Or they. Or they moved out. And, like, we're going to move out until we get married. I was really proud, man.

[B]

Great, Great job. Thank you. Thank you for you and Jenna.

[A]

Yeah, it was awesome, man.

[B]

It was great.

[A]

Wait, can I. Can I Also, because we had two amazing things happen also.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We had an encounter last night, which was. What was your favorite part of encounter?

[B]

That's tough, man. Well, honestly, to see that room full of people worshiping. There's a hunger. There's nothing like it. There's nothing like it. I mean. Yeah, yeah, that. That was.

[A]

I'll start there. The. The first of all, JP's message crushed.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So shout out Pastor Jonathan P. That hopped in and it crushed. Our people love the word. It's amazing. But honestly, man. And listen, I'm allowed to be biased. I think our people are the best people in the whole world. Because it's like an hour before the prayer meeting, there's like, hundreds and thousands of people streaming in to pray for the prayer meeting. It's like the prayer meeting. I'd love to know. I haven't heard of tennis yet, but it's like overflow of overflow. And, I mean, you were there. They Were just crying out to the living God, bro.

[B]

Hands up.

[A]

Literally, oh, my God.

[B]

All over the auditorium just like.

[A]

Like this when we called for prayer at the end. And by the. We're gonna get talking about the Bible and Charlie and everything here in a second when we call for prayer at the end. Like, you just, just. People are just desperate for Jesus, man. And they like. I mean, those lines, those lines. I'm standing up on stage because I'm getting ready to come up and finish service. I mean, like, it was like lines like 20 deep over on the left side, like, trying to get to people for prayer. Our elders were over there doing the James 5 Pray for healing. By the way, we're going to talk about. In a second. We're going to talk about should Christians pray for people to be raised from the dead? Because the passage that we did this week was somebody getting raised from the dead. So anyway, they were over there like elders anointing people with oil and praying for physical healing. And it was awesome, man.

[B]

That's one thing to celebrate. There's another one.

[A]

Oh, you rooted. Yeah, yeah. So we also. It was a big rooted launch. Wait, can I. Hang on. Trinity, I'm going to send you a picture so that you can pop up real quick. So the rooted launch. Wait, will you tell them what rooted is?

[B]

Well, first of all, yeah, so if you're new here and you're like, what is rooted? Rooted is our. We just launched this thing where it's basically like a 10 week discipleship experience where you're able to join a group. If you've never been in a group, this is your opportunity to join a group with other believers, dig into the Bible, and then you go through different rhythms of scripture, discipleship, prayer, community, generosity, and more. I got some numbers here, but I want to let you keep.

[A]

You got numbers?

[B]

I got numbers.

[A]

Dang, dude, I think you got numbers for me. So that right there, bro, that is the rooted launch just at the Rockwall campus. Wow. So it's like thousands and thousands of people. Do you know how many thousand?

[B]

Yeah, so 3,385 people got into groups this week.

[A]

That's stupid. That's stupid.

[B]

We. These are over 247 groups.

[A]

Yeah. By the way, me and Jan are leading one.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

We're leading a young adults rooted group at our house. We felt like youth pastors again. Some of them stayed over till like 10pm I met some of them. Yeah, it was awesome.

[B]

Very exciting.

[A]

It was awesome, man. But yeah, man, I mean, it's Just this rudeus, like boot camp for team Jesus. Yes. Here's what it means to be a disciple and that's going to change a lot of lives right there.

[B]

That's a big deal for us, actually. We had, you know, obviously we, we had stories of people that they've never been to a physical location at Lake Point. And then they. But they joined on the live free podcast and they joined Rooted. So they came and we. There's a screenshot that this is, this is a cool story. A couple in our group has been watching Josh online and heard mention Rooted. So they signed up. They have never stepped foot on any LP campus. That's an amazing leap of faith to commit to a 10 week group at a church and people you do not know yet, but you will become part of the family. And they said they felt a tug from God.

[A]

That's awesome. Come on, man.

[B]

Shout out to the. I'm sure that's just one case of many.

[A]

Let's go live. Live free digital disciples.

[B]

That's amazing, man. So, hey, by the way, if you're here and you're like, man, I'm not. I'd love to join. Root it. Just text the word. Root it to 20411. And we'd love to connect with you personally as well. Also, just shout out to everybody again with the livery podcast. Top 10 Religion and spirituality apple carts. Like, yeah, that's a big question, man. And then if you, by the way, if you're here and to get the show notes. So every time, by the way, we do this. If you're new, we already have over 2,000, maybe 3,000 people that have subscribed to get the show notes. This is basically a document you can download on each episode where we include all key takeaways, main highlights, additional content and discussion questions for you to take to your group as well. Why? Because discipleship happens in relationships and your next step after this is community. So text the word notes to 20411. We'll send them straight to your phone or go to Lakepoint Church notes. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you.

[A]

All right, I'm prepared.

[B]

Hey, man, I'm curious.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

By the way, I'm a fan of your sermon prep.

[A]

Do I know that this is coming?

[B]

You do.

[A]

Okay. All right, good. All right, good.

[B]

It's man. What did it make it to the sermon?

[A]

Here we go. There was a lot that didn't make it to the service. So first of all, let me just say something. If you are like, if you're One of those people. It's like, man, my heart's honestly just heavy for what's going on in our nation. I do want to encourage you about something real quick because you may be like, dude, just get to the stuff about Charlie. Here's what I would say as a Christian is you got to make sure that the internal reality of your heart is not dominated by the external headlines of the. Of the world. And what mature Christians do is it's like, I did it as soon as I. Actually, you're the one that texted me. I was in the middle of a workout, and you text me about Charlie getting shot. And what mature Christians do is they don't react, they reflect. And so what I would encourage you to do is as disciples of the Word of God, we actually need. There's something steadying about, like, okay, there's all this stuff going on, but let me pause and just get my heart into the Word. There's a settling thing that does for the soul. So let's do that real quick, and then we'll. We'll get some spiritual reality things about what's going on with all the Charlie stuff. Okay. Stuff that didn't make it in. So here's the. Here's the story. What happened? Acts 19 or Acts 20. I think we're 32 weeks into preaching through Acts, something like that. So this is Paul's third missionary journey. He goes to this place called Troas. And it's actually kind of a funny story. He preaches, and it says that he preaches. And literally what the Bible says is he preached, quote, unquote, on and on and on until. Until a dude, like, falls asleep in the window and then falls out of a third story window and dies. And then Paul raises him from the dead. This is a funny little fact. I do want to point this out. It's very encouraging to me. Did you know, Carlos, the Bible tells us Paul was not a very engaging speaker.

[B]

I had an idea it does, because he had a friend called Apollos who was known to be an amazing speaker.

[A]

He. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So second, this is an interesting verse. 2 Corinthians 10:10. Paul's critics said this for some say his letters are weighty and forceful, but in person, he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.

[B]

That's wild.

[A]

That's in the Bible.

[B]

So it's like the social media version of the trolls.

[A]

I know, man. It's like he's got the. The haters. So honestly, there was, like, when I was meditating on it, there Was something kind of encouraging to me about that is that, man, I work and you do too. You're a Bible teacher. We work really hard to make the Bible teaching something that's like, people can enjoy, they can listen to. We keep their attention.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

But what mature Christians do is they're really. They're really not there for, you know, the jokes or the story. They're really like, dude, I want the Word. And Paul was that kind of guy. Was like, he was a word guy.

[B]

I love it. Yeah, there's power in the word.

[A]

Power in the word, man. Power in the word. A couple other things. Very interesting. This is, in fact, I'm going to read it. It's Acts 20, verse seven. This is one of the first mentions in the entire New Testament about the Sabbath being shifted from Saturday to Sunday. And a lot of people gloss over it and don't realize this says it. So Acts 27 says, on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them. And then it goes on to say he started preaching the Bible. Now that's kind of verse like you just read past it and you don't even notice. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He just said on the first day of the week. So that's a big deal because since literally, you know, the Levitical law, you know, that would have been 2 to 3,000 years before this. The Sabbath had always been Saturday. And then you just get this little whoop. Slide it right in there. Whoa. Now, instead of the seventh day of the week, we're on the first day of the week. So I'll read you some. This is some. We're going to Bible nerd out for a second here. Very interesting because Seventh Day Adventist churches, they still make a very strong like their whole thing is wrong. You know, you ought to be worshiping on Saturday. And of course the Old Testament law. Just some really fun church history nerd stuff here. Justin Martyr. This is a direct quote from Justin Martyr. Justin Martyr was a pastor at the beginning of the second century, which means the 1/ hundreds. A lot of people miss that. So like literally right after the New Testament is written, he records that it was the custom of. The custom of celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday was so universally established that Christians in listen in every city and village followed the custom of worship on Sunday, not Saturday. So there you've got it from like literally a first or second century eyewitness. Little interesting tidbit. A lot of people attribute that shift to in the year 70 AD. Do you know what happened in 70.

[B]

A.D. i have an idea.

[A]

All right. In 70 AD, Jesus prophesied it. That's a whole thing. And if you want a really Bible nern out, you can start talking about preterism versus partial preterism. Are the events that are recorded in the book of Revelation, past or future? Almost certainly at least some of the events of the book of Revelation. This is called the preterist or partial preterist position. Are referring to things that happened in 70 A.D. that's right. When the Roman Empire came and absolutely demolished Jerusalem in fulfillment of Jesus prophecy. That actually some of that was judgment because they rejected the Messiah. And so a lot of people think what happened is in 70 AD, until that point, because the temple was still there doing its thing, the Christians were viewed as like a sect of Judaism and they still worship on Saturday. But then when the temple got destroyed, they were like, oh well, the temple rhythms are done. They shifted to, to Sunday worship. And then last thing I'd say a little thing that didn't make any little fun fact. Uticus is the name of the kid that falls out of the third story thing and dies. That was the ninth most popular name in the Roman Empire.

[B]

I did not know this.

[A]

Little fun fact, huh? So the ninth most popular name of, you know, a 25 year old dude now is Daniel. So you know, it's just, you know, it's kind of like you hear a weird name like Uticus. Well, it's kind of like meeting somebody named Daniel, you know.

[B]

Now you did say what that word means, right? Like the name, right?

[A]

I did not.

[B]

Didn't it mean, does that mean lucky?

[A]

Oh, it does, yeah. Uticus means lucky, which is hilarious because he falls out of a window.

[B]

That's right. That's right.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, little, little interesting thing. So yeah, man, that was some stuff that didn't make into the message.

[B]

Okay, yeah, well, this, I want to dive into this story. It's interesting because, you know, obviously we're going to get into this, but the idea of this young man at the window basically falling three stories.

[A]

One more thing.

[B]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

So this is this the. Actually this doesn't go back to Greek. It's just a fun little fact. Did you know, Carlos, that the, the etymology, the origins of the word window, it literally means wind door.

[B]

Wind door.

[A]

Wind door.

[B]

By the way, I love geeky etymology stuff, so thank you.

[A]

You know, me too.

[B]

Oh man, I'm learning something new. Words, Words.

[A]

Yeah, so it means wind door. Because in places like ancient, you know, Israel, it was Real dang hot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they would put, they didn't put windows in to let light in. They put windows in to let, to let wind in. It was a wind door. So interesting.

[B]

I appreciate that. I love this so much. Well, it's, again, it's interesting. There's so much in this story and again, I'm sure you'll, you know, with your sermon, but it's funny that the text does not say that Uticus was a little sleepy. It says he fell into a deep, deep, deep sleep, man. And I just, even as we were going to have this conversation today about our culture in our nation, man, there's just something about our nation being under a deep spiritual sleep where we're so close to the edge of something, you know, whether it's sin or falling. It reminds me too of the letter that Jesus writes in the book of Revelations to the church in Sardis where he says, man, you guys are going through the motions, but there's no heart connection. There's no life transforming power, no hunger to grow in the things of God, no signs and wonders. And again, so we'll keep going with this illustration, but the fact that this guy who's young, he falls, the hope in the story is that he falls surrounded by believers who cared for him.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so if he would have fallen in a different setting, there would have been a completely different story. But now he falls and he happens to be surrounded by people who actually took him care for him. Paul was there to pray for him. A miracle happened. So, man, I want to, I want.

[A]

To ask you, this is a legitimately good question. So we touched, I touched on this like a little bit in the message, but not as much. So this is a legitimate question that Christians debate is you have this guy getting raised from the dead.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so Christian is like, why, man? Like, I know I'm supposed to pray for people to be healed, should I pray for people to be raised from the dead? So first of all, I'll just point this out. There are 10 times in the Bible where God raises somebody from the dead. I'm going to list them for you just for the Bible nerds out there. Elijah raises a boy from the dead, 1st Kings 17.

[B]

Very similar, by the way.

[A]

Yeah, actually that's a little tie in. I need to talk about that. That's a good point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Elisha raises another boy in 2nd Kings 4. There's a dude that gets thrown on the bones of Elisha in 2nd Kings 13. And when he touches the Bones of Elisha, he gets raised from the dead. Jesus raises Jairus daughter in Luke 8, Jesus raises Lazarus in John 11, God raises Jesus in all four of the Gospels. Peter raises Dorcas in Acts 9, Paul. Paul is. Now, a lot of people. Don't count this one. I'm. This is a little. I'm firm on this. So in Acts 14, when Paul gets stoned and then it says they left him outside the. I think it says in some translations they left him for dead. Some people think, oh, they just didn't. They thought he was dead and he wasn't. I think he was dead, yes. That's like my personal interpretation of Acts 14. So I think Paul was raised by believers praying for him in Acts 14. And then you got Paul right here raising eutychus in Acts 20. Now, let me go a little far. So basically, dude, what I'm gonna say, and then we explain it. For people who think that it's weird. I do not think that it's wrong for a Christian to pray for someone who has died to be raised from dead. I'll be honest. I did that yesterday. Now, let me. For people who think that's weird, let.

[B]

Me say, by the way, for people that don't know and that you're talking about Charlie.

[A]

Yeah, I did. I did. When I heard that news, I paused, I was on a walk, and I did. I prayed for that. And the Lord did not answer that prayer. And I want to talk about that. A couple other things. Number one, you just. You have this Jesus, when he sends out some of his disciples, he literally, his command to them is he goes, hey, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go in every city and he goes, you know, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the leper, cast out demons. And he literally, one of the things he said is, you're my disciples. I want you to go raise the dead. Wow. It's kind of interesting. Another couple church history, nerd things, early church. Let's see.

[B]

A lot of people.

[A]

This is kind of stuff. Like, people don't think about the early church. Father Irenaeus. People think about these early church fathers, like these stodgy old.

[B]

Like theologians.

[A]

Yeah, dude, like boring theologians. Irenaeus talks about a time when his church engaged in prayer and fasting. And it was. I'm going to quote, it was effective in raising someone from the dead. Wow. That's Irenaeus. Wow. St. Augustine, apparently in his book the City of God, describes, in addition to describing some healings, he quote, he Says, quote, demon possession and even raising the dead. He says this. Okay, now for if. Here's what I say, dude, if you're a Christian and you hear that and you're like, stop, man. Like you, that's, that's nobody's. That's not even credible. Okay, I would like to quote Acts 26:8 to you where Paul says, why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead? So I just. Bro, I just. Right, man, Listen, man, I'm not a faith healer. I'm a Bible believer. And I got nothing in the Bible that says don't do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have some examples in the Bible of Christians doing it. Is it rare? Yeah, that's why we call it a miracle, not Wednesday. But, man, I like, why would I not ask God to do something that would testify to the greatness of Jesus?

[B]

There's some, I know today people debate this, obviously, when it comes to, especially how the Holy Spirit still operates today. There's a. There seems to some that would say, no, no, those things have ceased. And then other people would say, no, no, no, actually those things continue and we actually, we should pursue them. We should ask God to do these. What are those things? Explain that to us.

[A]

Yeah, this is really good. So this is. And I'm going to give like a theological position that I have that relates heavily to this. So the two, there's two theological positions, by the way. I started in one and shifted, and now I'm the other one. The two positions for theology nerds, it's called cessationism versus continuationism, and you can kind of tell what they mean by the name. So cessationism is the view that cessationism labels some of the more miraculous gifts in the New Testament. They label them, quote unquote, sign gifts. They'll say, man, there were some sign gifts that were a sign of the authentication of the truth of the gospel. And those gifts, what they would say were only given either to the apostles or during the apostolic era for the purpose of authenticating the truth of Christianity. But then after that, they, that's. This is their argument, is that those miraculous gifts ceased. That's why it's called cessationism. Cease. I'm on team. It's called continuationism. And continuationism is the, the theological position that every gift in the New Testament. Now this is a little theology nerdy. Notice that I said gift, not office. That's a whole different discussion. But that's for some weird niche online reform that all, all the gifts in the New Testament. Continue. That's what called. It's called continuationism. For the purpose of the edification church.

[B]

In the event of the gospel gifts such as.

[A]

Yeah. The primary ones they'll do is prophecy, healing, and tongues.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Those are the primary ones they'll do prophecy, healing, and tongues. Can I give you the argument for cessationism?

[B]

Please do. I was gonna. I was literally just gonna say, bro, I'm gonna be honest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't. I don't get cessationism. Yeah, go ahead, please. Yeah.

[A]

All right, so I'll be honest, dude. Here's. Here's. Now, listen, if you're a cessationist, I love you, and you think I'm an idiot, and I don't think you're an idiot. But I am just going to be blunt about where I think some of this can come from. I honestly think most cessationists and not all of them. I think a lot of cessationists have that position because they've seen abuses of some of these claimed miraculous gifts. And they're honestly like, bro, every time I see somebody mess with it, it gets stinking weird and creepy. And they're like, I don't want to have anything to do with it. Or they'll say this. They'll go, man, hey, Carlos, when have you seen somebody with a spiritual gift of healing? Are you watching people drop, well, handkerchiefs on people and getting raised from dead?

[B]

Well, somebody who was born in Latin America, like, the answer is actually, like, like, actually, like everywhere.

[A]

Okay, so, dude, you beat me to it.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

So honestly, okay, you're way ahead of me. One of the things I was going to say, so I'm going to. I'm going to give the argument for cessationism, and then why it's wrong. Okay, but I am. I am.

[B]

Please.

[A]

But then. But then I was going to finish by what. After I give the argument, cessationists will say, well, then why don't we see them? And my response to that is, the only people who say that. Americans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, literally in almost every other part of the world, people are like, oh, yeah, miraculous stuff happens all the time, and spirits are real and just travel.

[B]

To, you know, Latin America, Africa.

[A]

Like, by the way, if people. People listening don't know, maybe you're listening, not watching. Carlos. From El Salvador and grew up in what, primarily. What kind of churches down there? More charismatic?

[B]

Charismatic Pentecostal. Yeah, I mean, we. We saw. I mean, demon possessed people. I mean, everything really.

[A]

By the way, let me just Say this. We have seen overt demonic manifestation at Lake Point. Yeah, so that's, you know, you see it probably a little more frequently elsewhere.

[B]

I mean, I mean, I grew up, you know, seeing things. And, you know, I've read this story too. This, this pastor here in America talking to a pastor from Africa. And the pastor from Africa was telling, this pastor in America is like, hey, like, you know, I know you're. You love theology, and theology is important. Doctrine is important. But in my church in Africa, man, like, people are like, we got witches. We got like, you know, demon possessed people. And so we need, we need power. We need the Holy Spirit to like, I, I can't. You know, just to quote a Bible verse, which again, you know, we, we love the Bible. It is important. But then when it comes to the gift of, of healing, of, of, you know, deliverance, all the things, there's a, there's something there that, like, man, it's necessary.

[A]

A hundred. Dude, if. If there's unholy spirits, you need a Holy Spirit.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And it's like, if you can't sense right now in our nation that there's such a thing as unholy, in fact, Trinity, I'm sending you one more thing. Will you put up the thing that I literally just sent you right now? If right now in our nation you don't have clarity that there's a reality of unholy spirits, I don't know what to tell you. So we're going to talk about Charlie here in a second. But, dude, this went like, mega viral. So, like, two days before his assassination, just pause and wait, by the way, pause as a Christian. And like, this is. There are no coincidences. So you have an account on X. The title of the account is Jezebel. Okay, if you don't know who that is, that's a demonic figure. In the Old Testament, she was a demonic queen that did more evil than any other leader in Israel. Then you fast forward to Revelation 2 and 3 and Jesus says to one of the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, this is what I have against you. You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seduc my people to practice sexual immorality. What Jesus is doing when in Revelation 3, he hearkens back to the name Jezebel from the Old Testament is he's not talking about that, that person or that woman. He's addressing the spirit that was controlling her. And he's saying the same spirit that controlled the demonic queen in the Old Testament. He's controlling this woman that claims to be a prophetess, does not respect any spiritual authority, and does, you know, demonic things in the New Testament. Sorry. So check this out. So just pause and think about this. You have this account called Jezebel, named after a literal demon, and then they tweet, two days before the assassination of Charlie Kirk, we paid some Etsy witches to curse Charlie Kirk, and then two days later, the guy's dead. Now, am I saying that that's like a direct one to one it's because of some curses of some witches that happened to Charlie? I'm, like, really, really doubtful on that, because greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world and in Christ. We're more than conquerors through him who loved us. However, I don't think there are coincidences. And if you can't see the correlation between an account that's literally named after a demon that has, by the way, like, 900,000 followers. It's like a pagan Sex in the City, you know, feminist account, which is, by the way, which is like, actually what Jezebel was in Revelation 3.

[B]

You.

[A]

So you have an account named after a demon that is tweeting, hey, we actually got in contact with some other demons. And so anyway, I'm just saying, dude, like, there are unholy spirits. We need the actual power of the Holy Spirit, man.

[B]

Honestly, it's sobering because, you know, we. We hear this verse a lot, and we're like, oh, yeah, we've heard that. But Ephesians, chapter 6, verse 12, for our struggle, it is not against flesh and blood. It's not against the people that we see, but it is against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces, supernatural, evil, spiritual forces in the heavenly realms.

[A]

That's exactly.

[B]

And so, like, the idea that we find in Scripture that we are literally in a real spiritual war. Yes, is. Is a thing. And I think, honestly. And again, as somebody who's lived half of my life in a different continent or I guess Central America. And being here now, honestly, it's easy to forget. We're just kind of like, well, you know, there's a lot of things. Mental health, and yes, obviously some of those things are a thing as well, but it is easy sometimes to overlook the reality of the spiritual realm.

[A]

Amen. All right, let me finish this stuff. Let's finish this stuff on cessationism and continuationism, because I. Honestly, man, I think is, like, really important for Christians to have down deep in their bones that the Holy Spirit has power for you today. And I think how it's. And he's the same yesterday, today and forever.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

So th. There. This is really important to me. And then let's move on. Let's call. Pull Ryan.

[B]

We got Ryan about to join in a bit.

[A]

Oh, Dewey, that's great, man.

[B]

He's ready anytime. Yes. Yes.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

He's excited to join you.

[A]

I love that guy. All right, so let me hit this, and we'll p. Ryan, talk about Charlie. So first. So here's. If you're asking, like, bro, I don't even. You said, I don't even know where cessationists get their. Their thing. So here's primarily where they get it. Number one, they're kind of going like, well, I'm looking around, and I don't see a bunch of people healing people. But you'll notice it's almost always, like, white. It's like white. Western Europeans or Americans are the only ones that say that. So that's number one. Number two, here's a verse they point to. One of the verses they point to is in First Corinthians 13. What's up, Ryan? Can he hear us yet?

[B]

He probably is about to hear us in just a second.

[A]

Okay, well, I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna keep going.

[B]

Oh, we gotta. But, yeah, finish it.

[A]

Let me keep going, and then we'll fool in.

[B]

Ryan, Ryan, hang tight for just, like, a minute.

[A]

Love you, brother. Okay, so the other thing that cessationists will do is they'll point to First Corinthians 13. And here's, like, their keystone verse. So you heard this at your. You know. You know, at your sister's wedding, that everybody reads this verse. It does all the love stuff, and then it goes, love never fails. And then it says this. But where there are prophecies, they will cease. And cessationists are, like.

[B]

Really excited about that.

[A]

We were really hoping all the prophecies would cease so that where there are tongues, they will be stilled. Where there is. Where there is knowledge. I think there's one translation that says, words of knowledge, it will pass away. And they. And then they go. And then it says, for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when the completeness comes, what is in part disappears. All right, now check this out. So cessationists go, what? That verse just said, prophecies, tongues, and words of knowledge will cease and pass away. Okay? And I'm like, yes, you're absolutely right that it does. The question is when? When. Okay, this passage, it tells us so. Check this out here. Here's what it says in verse 12. It says, for now we see only a reflection, as in a mirror. Then. So the then is referring to the when all those things will pass away, then we shall see face to face. Pop quiz. Carlos Razzo. When are we gonna see Jesus face to face?

[B]

After death?

[A]

Yes. When he returns or when you go to heaven. So it's very obvious. This is not talking about the end of the apostolic era when those gifts cease. It's very obvious. This is talking about when Jesus returns and I can talk to him. I don't need you to prophesy to me anymore. So anyway, dude, we could keep going on Acts 2. Specifically talks about how in the last days I'm gonna pour out my spirit on your people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. So it's going, hey man, even in the last days, these gifts are gonna be active. It specifically says that In Acts chapter two, Jesus tells his disciples in John 14. He's like, hey man, whoever believes in me, you're gonna do greater things than me. So anyway, the big idea is I honestly all love to cessationist brothers and sisters, but I wanna speak clearly. I think cessationism is worldliness that comes from rub secularism that people end up almost turning into like this veneer of theology. Frequently. Not always, but frequently. And let me just finish by saying, here's why this is important for Christians to get down deep in your bones. Listen, man, this is so important because in the New Testament, New Testament evangelism, Paul says this in Romans 15, that his evangelism strategy was to share the gospel by listen, by word and deed, and the power of signs and wonders. That's actually part of a New Testament church's evangelism strategy. We're going to pray for miracles to happen. And then lost people will see miracles happen and they'll go, well, dang, I guess Jesus is a thing. And if you start believing that all this stuff has ceased. And I know cessationists will be like, well, I'm just saying the gifts have ceased, not answered prayers. But anyway, it's like, if you start believing this stuff has ceased, you will not pray for it with faith. And we have not, because we ask not. And we will not see what Jesus wants to do to convince the world of his reality.

[B]

Can I say last one, last thing?

[A]

Please do, bro.

[B]

I desire that. Like, oh my gosh, dude, I have a Desperation for God to give me whatever it is the Holy Spirit has for me. I'm like, holy Spirit, please, I want it. And, and you. And you can do it. And somebody joining right now, you can do. That's right. God wants to give you more.

[A]

Exactly right, man.

[B]

Because there is more, is more. Well, hey, guys. One of the reasons we are intentional in creating these kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is we want to model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the word of God together and grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. For this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined a group, you need to get into Rooted. Rooted is a 10 week discipleship experience that helps you grow closer to God, build meaningful relationships, and discover the purpose he has for your life life. Rooted guides you to practice the seven rhythms of following Jesus to transform your faith from something you know into something you actually live out every single day. And so whether you're exploring what it means to follow Jesus and you're ready to grow deeper in your faith or maybe you're searching for people to do life with, Rooted is for you. Just text the word rooted to 20411 and our teams will follow up personally. Do not wait. Your next step starts now.

[A]

Okay, so speaking of, there is more. We have more. We have more guests, so let's welcome Ryan Visconti.

[C]

Guys, great to be with you, bro.

[A]

It's good to see you. We've been texting a lot, but it's good to see your face. Hey, just for. Yeah. Yeah, man. So just for listeners, here's why I wanted Ryan to come on. Number one. Ryan is my friend. Ryan and I have known each other for a lot of years. We probably text on average multiple times per day. For sure. We keep up. And he's honestly, he's just a great. He's one of the best verse by verse Bible teachers in America. I genuinely believe that. And I'll listen to stuff all the time. And he's just, he's a friend, great pastor. His church is absolutely exploding in the Phoenix area. And Ryan, you're just a good man with a great family. In addition to that, Ryan has had. You've had a decent relationship with Charlie, been to your church. And you guys, like, had a relationship, and then I don't think I'm blowing the lid off anything I'm not supposed to. Last night, Turning Point called Ryan to come and minister to their staff. And so, man, Ryan, just welcome, man.

[C]

Guys, thanks for having me. Good to see friendly faces at times like this, you know, it's been a difficult day. Been sad, you know, and just kind of in shock over what happened. I met Charlie several years ago. A mutual friend introduced us. We had a dinner, got to know him. And then one thing he made really clear right off the bat was just that he was here in Arizona, stationed in Arizona, living in Arizona with his family. But he also cared about the churches in Arizona and pastors that were in this area and around the country. So we had the opportunity to. To do stuff together, and he prioritized that. And grateful to have known him a little bit, and sad that what just took place happens. I think we're all kind of shocked.

[A]

I was. Carlos is the one who texted me when it happened. I'll be honest, man. It shook me, like, more than I thought something like that would. I just took, like, a long walk to regain my center.

[C]

Yes. I mean, I was in shock. Just my fit. I felt like my. It was one of those things where you don't want to believe it. And when you hear people talk about, like, being in denial, I think I can relate to that a little bit, because I. I mean, I was starting to see videos on the Internet of what happened, and even in my brain was wanting to tell myself, like, well, hope, maybe this is AI and it's not real. And, you know, you just don't want to think that something like that has happened to someone that you care about.

[A]

Yeah, dude. Well, dude, Ryan, do you mind? Like, because, honestly, man, I've been hearing for years from you about just things about, like, who Charlie was as a man, and I don't know, man. Do you want to share a little bit about, you know, things that people might not have known about him? We're gonna. So real quick. We're. Ryan and I, like, we've been texting. There's some, like, very spiritual things happening and things that this illuminates and that, like, truths that is bringing to the surface? We want to talk about that in a second. But, Ryan, do you want to share, like, some things that people might not have known about Charlie and then maybe what your time at Turning Point was like last night?

[C]

Yeah. You know, one of the things that Charlie shared and all this is, you know, Not. None of this is in confidence, but he talked about his childhood and growing up in church and going to church every week and taking notes as his pastor taught through books of the Bible and keeping all of those notes. And it's very clear when you meet him how the Bible shaped his worldview. And he's such an impressive guy, so articulate, so intelligent. But the Bible was the foundation of everything that he said and believed, and it was genuine. One of. One of the things that struck me about Charlie when I met him and all the time that I was in private with him is, you know, in public, he comes off so confident and strong. And when you meet someone who's like that in public and they're famous and they're influential, you kind of wonder like, well, what are these people like in private? What are they going to be like? And I was surprised that he was incredibly humble, kind, respectful of everyone that he talked to. He never acted like he was more important than anyone else. He was never short with other people or entitled. He was just genuinely caring and courteous. And one of the things that was really cool is I. I could tell that even though Charlie talked a lot about political and cultural issues, his passion was Jesus. And, you know, the. For about a year ago, he came to my church on a Wednesday night, it was almost a year ago, exactly from last night. And he spoke at a men's event. And he just offered to come by after a busy day, you know, speaking to millions of people. And when he got there, you know, I was just, you know, what do you want to talk about, Charlie? And he's like, I don't really want to talk about politics. And he's like, I want to talk about.

[A]

Dude, I remember you saying this, and it blew my mind.

[B]

I know.

[C]

I had no idea what he was going to say. I thought he might want to just kind of riff on some, you know, news of the day or something. He'd already been thinking about a lot, but he's like, no, I don't want to talk about politics. He was zero interest. He wanted to talk about Jesus, the church, how men should rise up to be godly leaders in their families and in their churches and in the community. He wanted to talk about spiritual matters, and that was a passion for him. It was really cool. As I. I interviewed him that night, guys from the church asked questions, and he, you know, being Charlie, just answered so articulately and. And intelligently. But then at the end of the night, we just kind of stopped and we said to the room, and there were a lot of guests in the room. We just said, hey, if you love Charlie or if you appreciate him, maybe you're a fan of him and the things that he stands for, you need to know that everything he stands for is rooted in Jesus Christ. And Charlie was just like, amen. And we. We led a salvation invite in that moment. And about 25 guys from the community who weren't members of my church accepted Jesus that night. And one of the things that was so cool was Charlie's team. You know, they have all the opportunities in the world, invitations to go all over the place. He. They specifically told me that he was scaling back on his reg engagements before the election because he wanted to have more time to go to churches and specifically encourage pastors to be bold in their preaching and bold in their leadership.

[B]

Ryan, I've been. I've been following Charlie for a while. It seems to me like in the last two to three years, like, that was more and more frequent, where he was just really outspoken about his faith. He was very much so intentional. And, you know, any question I was asked, he would tie it back into his faith. This is He. He would be very explicit in, hey, I'm a follower of Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior. Is that something that you've seen as well, or is it just me that, you know, over the years have just. Josh, have you seen that?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or did you see that?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I think we were realizing, all of us kind of seeing Charlie, it was clarifying for him, crystallizing for him, that the church of Jesus Christ is probably the most powerful force on earth, and he wanted to bring about change for the good. And he knew that, yes, voting is important. Yes, cultural, political issues are important, but what the church can do through the power of the Holy Spirit, through our witness, is unstoppable. And I think that's why he started to prioritize churches and pastors more. He started to share his faith more because we. We know this as church leaders, that you can make a really compelling cultural argument about political matters, but when you take it back to the truth of God's word, which is inspired by God and it compels people by the power of God. Like, no one can argue with that. They might fight it, but it's just undeniably true.

[A]

Bro, do we have that clip? Did you guys. Do you got that clip? Can we pull it up where, like, he can see it, too? Okay, can we go ahead and play that clip?

[B]

This is where he confesses.

[A]

Yeah, the guy with the the demonic thing asks him about, bro. So. So before we play this clip to what Ryan just said, so did you, Ryan, did you watch Mark's YouTube stream?

[C]

I just saw a few minutes of it here and there.

[A]

Okay, so, like, hit with Mark. Ryan and I have a mutual pastor friend that. That was also good friends with Charlie. And so he. Charlie had been telling Mark he was, you know, sharing some text messages that he wanted to pivot. What? Dude, I'll get emotional talking about he wanted to pivot in his future years in into being primarily evangelism and only secondarily politics and cultural engagement. And dude, it's like, you know, honestly, the reason that makes me emotional is because he had such a unique ability to communicate, especially to young men in a rhetorically forceful way about the truth of Jesus. And he was just all out, like, no holds barred. So, in fact, let's show this clip real quick. Can we go ahead and show that? Yeah. Check this out. This is like one of my favorites. You a Christian?

[D]

Very, very much so.

[A]

Like, why is that exactly?

[D]

Oh, Jesus saved my life. I'm a sinner, gave my life to Christ. Most important decision I ever made.

[A]

So you believe the Bible is real?

[D]

Yes, I believe the Bible is true and real.

[C]

Why is that?

[D]

Well, I could give you the technical answer. There's never been an archaeological discovery that has contradicted the truth of the Bible. And then, of course, the wisdom. There is not a truth of the Bible that if you apply to your life, your life does not improve dramatically. And then finally, we have the most accurate and transparent, historically robust account that one can have of the most important figure ever to live in the history of the world, Jesus of Nazareth. And the resurrection is the. Is the pinpoint of my belief that Jesus did rise from the grave so that we may live.

[A]

What makes Christian mythology real?

[D]

So that's not mythology, but that is theology. If Genesis 1:1 and the resurrection is true, anything in the Bible is possible. You're looking at the greatest miracle. The greatest miracle is creation. And then the fact that Jesus rose from the dead. I say, how do you know that Jesus rose from the dead? Well, show me another historical piece of a story where so many people willingly died a brutal death for a lie. Every single person around him had everything to lose. And yet they went to the absolute death. From Paul to Peter to the half brother of James, saying that Jesus is Lord. Jesus rose from the dead. Not to mention, if you were going to fake a story, you would not use female witnesses in the ancient world. In the scriptures it said that the feet, the women were the first one to see. Jesus Christ. If you're trying to fake a story, you would never do that.

[A]

Jeez, man. Well, dude, honestly, when I watch that, I'm just like, I'm so proud of that young man. Because, honestly, people forget, like, bro, that guy. Was he 32 or 31?

[C]

31.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, man. It's just. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, let's. You want to pivot, Ryan, or you want to pivot, Carlos?

[B]

Yeah, man. Let me. Let me ask you guys some things. So, honestly, people are seeing thing after thing in the news. I. That Wednesday, I woke up reading about the Ukrainian girl who was stabbed in a public train. And then that afternoon, we're hearing about Charlie. And then you hear just, you know, months before, you know, Catholic school shooting, I think, at the time of this recording, the. Another school shooting in Colorado high school, man, if somebody's just asking, like, man, what is going. Like, just what's going on? Like, can somebody please explain to me why it seems like we're seeing thing after thing after thing? And then, like, what should I make of it? As a Christian, what should I make of this?

[A]

You want it?

[C]

I'll jump into it. It seems like what's happening right now is things are coming to a head where the increase in violence directly correlates to the conviction that people feel regarding truth and sin and deception. And, you know, I think going back to what Charlie was working towards was a political victory last year for the sake of our country, which he loved and he cared about. And then we have those who are opposed to truth into God's word and to what we stand for, who. Maybe they feel somewhat like they took an L. They. They took a defeat in the election cycle, and things aren't necessarily going their way. And I can't help but think that there's some of a. Somewhat of a backlash, that they're. They're not willing to go easily just because they lost an election and their ideology isn't getting advanced. There's a lashing out. There's always an attempt to cower those who oppose evil. And so I think that's why we're seeing the uptick in violence right now. There's always been violence in our world, but it's more prominent now. It's spread quicker. And I think it is. It is causing Christians to have to reflect, like, do I really believe this? Do I want to stand for this? Do I want to face potential danger in my life? Because we go, hey, I. I Believe the same things Charlie believed, and so do you guys. And someone was willing to kill him for it. What does that mean for me? What does that mean for my wife and kids and. And Christians are all asking ourselves these types of questions. The reality is that those are the real. That's what people who believed in Jesus have had to deal with for thousands of years. And it's actually unusual that we didn't have to deal with that as much in the first part of our lives. Now we're coming back face to face with it. So it's time to look in the mirror and ask, like, do I really believe what I say? I believe. Am I going to stand for Jesus even in a world where there's danger and persecution?

[A]

Bro, it was like, I think I texted you this. So after. After it was announced that he died, I took a second walk and I thought back to that. The Jesus thing where he's like, hey, man, before you follow me, you make sure you go and count the cost, because what builder doesn't start building before he da, da, da. Or else the tower won't be finished. That kind of thing. And honestly, man, I think there's, like, there's a few moments in every Christian's life where I think you need to take a long walk and ask yourself the question, am I willing to die for this? And then you need to make sure the answer is yes. And I do think that that was one of that minutes for me, you know? Carlos, you were asking now, why. Okay, this uptake, why I want to dovetail off what Ryan said and say two things, and then, Ryan, I'd love, you know, you say things better than me a lot so you can riff off what I say. Just, you know, you can riff a little bit. Can you guys throw that picture of the. The dude celebrating Charlie getting shot that we've. Marian and I have a mutual pastor friend that sent us this picture of somebody in Seattle. You know, it's Charlie Kirk shot. And they say, hell, yes, exclamation point, exclamation point with a heart. And you can take it down, but it's like. And you're seeing, like, honestly, dude, it's not isolated. You're seeing, like, mainstream progressives. It's a main. It's one of the mainstream reactions to celebrate the death of Charlie Kirk. I want to say two things. We're preaching through the Book of Acts, and every single time the Book of Acts, the pattern is revival riot, revival riot, revival riot. Because every time there's an action of the Holy Spirit. There is an equal and opposite reaction of unholy spirits. The Bible calls demons. And when my buddy sent me that picture of, you know, you know, rainbow flag, Seattle sign, Charlie Kirk shot, exclamation point, exclamation point, Hell, yes. Honestly, man, that is an overtly demonic reaction. And there is part of me that was like, I hope hell is rejoicing when I die, too, because I lived so aggressively for the glory of God that they're throwing a party when I'm out of the fight. That's the old C.S. lewis quote. So there was part of me that was like, that watches this, like, very overtly demonic reaction to the slaughtering of Charlie. And I'm going like, badge of honor, badge of honor, that all of hell is like, hallelujah, that guy's hugging Jesus. The other thing I'd say, and, man, this is one where, like, let me just. You know, this is going to take me, like, two or three minutes to say this. And then, Ryan, I'd love for you to jump in with some comments here. There are a lot of Christians, I think, who even this podcast, they may listen and be like, well, you know, he says he stood for some things that I'm not sure I was with. Maybe I was for, like, a higher marginal tax rate. And, you know, I wish we would be a little more compassionate, you know, quote, unquote, compassionate on other issues. And maybe you're a Christian that, you know, maybe on some areas you sort of lean, maybe left. And I just. I want to point something out to you really quick that I think this moment should make very stark for Christians. Okay? So if you have not noticed yet, it is simply an undeniable fact there is a radically disproportionate amount of violence that comes from the modern progressive left. So I'm going to give you. This is not an exhaustive list, and this is just data. So if. If you're struggling with what I'm saying right now, just stick with me. All right, so 2017, you have the congressional baseball shooting, where it's like attempted assassinations of conservative politicians. You have the extremely damaging and bloody Black Lives matter riots of 2020. I think 13 people were killed and billions of dollars of damage done. Then you have the anti antifa riots and the assaults that happened at the ongoing aftermath. You have the killing of Aaron, quote, unquote, J. Danielson in 2020. You have the Nashville school shooting, transgender school shooting. 2023, attempted Trump assassination number one, 2024, attempted Trump assassination number two, 2024, where the guy literally after he was caught, said, well, he's literally Hitler. That was like the language. Here's why I'm trying to do this. Put a bookmark in that. I'm coming back to that. Then you have the Nashville Catholic school shooting 2023. Then you have in 2024, the United Healthcare CEO murder in broad daylight. Just dud in the back f guy with a family, 2024. And by the way, once again, you saw large cheering from parts of the progressive left on that. You have ongoing attacks on ICE agents in 2024. And going on. We just covered it in the podcast. This was like two weeks ago. You have the Annunciation Catholic school shooting in just a few weeks ago. There was like overtly demonic transgender shooting. Carlos, you already mentioned the Ukrainian, the white Ukrainian girl that got stabbed to death in. I think that was Charlotte. And the guy walks away and he literally says, I got that white girl. So there's like a. There's a overtly stated racial aspect to it. And then you have the Charlie Kirk assassination that happened yesterday as the recording this podcast. Okay, let me just point this out. Violence, particularly political violence, is a feature, not a bug, of secular progressivism. And every Christian everywhere needs to understand that reality. I don't care how awkward it is to say that. So, like, the reason for that is secular progressivism is built on a critical theory lens that views the world through oppressed and oppressor categories. It's not built on a Christian theology lens that views the world through sin, righteousness categories. So here's what that does is it trains its adherents, progressives through, you know, critical theory indoctrination. They're trained to view people who disagree with them as evil oppressors instead of people who are simply mistaken. So in general, people who, like, broadly identify conservative, we're like, oh, man, they're wrong. I'd say they're wrong and they're dangerously wrong. But I view the world through a right and wrong category lens, whereas critical theory trains people to think through an oppressed oppressor lens. So that. That trains people to think the people who disagree with me are evil oppressors. That's a big deal. Because if I think that you're wrong, that's why I think it's wrong, then I'm going to try to persuade you, which is what Charlie did. He would go onto college campuses. We're going to have an interchange of ideas. I'm going to try to persuade you. But if I think that you're not simply mistaken, I think you're an evil oppressor, then I can't just ignore that and I can't just try to persuade you. I begin to feel a moral obligation to oppose you. So that's why you get this thing where like, secular progressivism is constantly. He's literally Hitler. They're an existential threat to democracy, fascist dictators, like everyone, everywhere and everything gets, gets labeled as racist. Well, why is that? Because the whole ideology is built on the critical theory lens of seeing the world as oppressed versus oppressors. And the reason you're seeing radically disproportionate violence bubble up on the left is because they have been indoctrinated to think we have to rise up against the evil oppressors. Okay, Agree, disagree. Additional Comments.

[C]

It's a great framework, and I totally agree. You can go all the way back to the Old Testament prophets and they couldn't shut them up up, so they killed them. And that's what the enemy does. He steals, kills and destroys. Whereas, like, as Christians, we're children of God and we want other people to repent of sin and turn to Jesus and be saved and adopted into our own spiritual family. So we look to, like, persuade our opponents, we look to change their minds, we look to convert them. We reluctantly will at times be willing to stop evildoers not out of hate for them, but out of love for the people who are vulnerable, who depend on us. And so our motivation is totally different. Whereas ideology is just a reflection of the heart. These different political matters that come up, it's a reflection of a completely different heart positioning spiritually. And, and this is not like just a Democrat, Republican, left versus right thing. We're living in a, you know, in the middle of what's essentially a spiritual war. And we know Ephesians 6 says that our battle is not against flesh and blood, it's a spiritual war. But the spiritual war definitely spills over into the physical realm. So there are people in this world today who are influenced by evil forces and they don't realize that they've got an worldview and ideology that's shaped that that way. And because, because of, because of the things that it is. But they're willing to just destroy those who stand against them. And that's, that's a scary reality. I'll just share this because it kind of ties into both elements of what you just said. Josh is going back to last year before the election. Charlie asked me to host JD Vance at our church for a rally. It wasn't a church event, but Just was a rally where they used the church building. And we were talking before the event in private, and Charlie said, like, he was very aware of the fact that if the Democratic side won the election, he expected very. He said this straight face was not exaggerating. This wasn't hyperbole. He said he expected to be in jail within the next few years. He believed that the. In him, the other side, would wage lawfare and find a way to put him and his team in jail. And I. I honestly thought they were kidding a little bit when they first said that, but they were not. And so they. He realized the high stakes of what he was doing and that, you know, he might not be. Be there to see his kids grow up. He. And he was looking at it from that context, like, I could be.

[A]

Be.

[C]

I could be in prison. And we. We saw that. We saw that that was something that they kind of tried to do with President Trump, was stop him with lawfare and things like that. And when they couldn't stop him with lawfare, they tried to kill him.

[A]

Kill him.

[C]

And so it goes back to like, dude, this is just a reality of spiritual warfare. We have an enemy who seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. The political stuff is just one of the ways that it manifests. We're not used to seeing political disagreements spill over into, like, blood combat. But that is the reality that we face today.

[A]

We.

[C]

We do have to look in the mirror, I think, as Christians, and ask ourselves the question. The question, like, am I willing to die for this? That's. That's one of the things I think that. That hits the hardest, like, I'll get emotional, too, is just thinking, like, this guy's kids won't grow up knowing the love of their dad. They'll hear about him being a great man, but they won't know him relationally the way that they could have. And I think about my daughter, you know, and I think about our kids, and just. We don't want them to experience that type of pain when we. When we get up and preach the truth from God's word. And it draws opposition when we talk about difficult, controversial ideas on a podcast like this that make people uncomfortable. We're not doing it to be controversial or shock jocks or just to get clicks and likes. We're talking about the difference between, like, life and death and the spiritual war that is waging right now for the soul of our country. And it will have an impact on our kids and future generations.

[B]

Man, there's a. To highlight what you guys are saying. There's a study done from the American Worldview Inventory. 1. They found that only about 4% of Americans hold beliefs consistent with the core truth of what the Bible teaches. And that number has been dropping in the last 25 years. And so 4%. 4%. And so, like, 60 will identify as Christians, but only 4% really hold, you know, Bible teaching.

[A]

Ryan, we got work to do.

[B]

And especially with this new generation, honestly, because obviously, Charlie spoke to this new generation, and among millennials, there's, like, statistics that says that only 40% of them, now, up to 40%, identify as none or non religious. And here's the thing that I think, especially this new generation, they're trying to figure it out. Everybody is religious in one way or another. So just because you stop being religious, it doesn't mean that now you don't have a religion. It just means that something else is your religion. And so what happens is when you remove God from your religious heart, you start to fill it with something. Something else. And so now in our culture, you see, we have removed God and we've replaced it with, you know, obviously people's own secular ideology with secular progressivism, with people's own political perspectives or opinion. That's not just an opinion now. That's your religion. And so now that becomes your God. And that's what the Bible calls an idol. And so when you idolize something and somebody disagrees with your idol, that's called blasphemy.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And now it's no longer just a person with a different worldview to debate. Now you have to destroy them. And so that's what. That's what I think we're seeing today in our culture when, again, it's this whole idea of, like, you disagree with me, your words are violent towards me, therefore I can justify violence towards you. And so it's just. But it's this idea, again, goes back to, like, what's in your heart? What's taking the place of God in your heart, man. Let me ask you this. For people that are obviously wrestling with all these emotions, especially anger, if somebody's asking, is it wrong for me as a Christian to be angry or to have a righteous anger? Where's the line between pursuing justice, showing mercy? Is it okay to even. Obviously, when you see social media, everybody is. Lots of people are enraged. Is vengeance an option? How do you pursue justice as a Christian and yet hold on to mercy?

[A]

Let me say a couple things. And then, you know, Ryan's really good with this type of thing. So first of all, you Know, it's like moments like these and even last week with the dude that stabbed the Ukrainian girl to death on video camera, it's like the death penalty is a good and just and biblical thing. And so we should, I think Christians can sometimes. We're supposed to be people of mercy. Yep. But then there's also a God ordained role of the government. Romans 13 says the government does not, quote, bear the sword for no reason. It says the government's literally, it says the government is supposed to be a terror to those who do wrong. In fact, this is a really interesting verse. Book of Ecclesiastes says, because a sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. So like, this may sound really aggressive, but like, dude, we're Bible people and everything God commands is good. And what I'm getting ready to say is going to sound harsh, but it's actually not out of hatred for the wrongdoer. It's actually out of love for the victims of the wrongdoer and the protection of the vulnerable that the wrongdoer might victimize. But honestly, the biblical thing to do in the Old Testament and then reaffirmed in Romans 13 would probably be something like a public execution. In the Old Testament, that's what you have. Agree?

[C]

Agree. Yeah, totally.

[A]

Yeah, Old Testament, that's in the Old Testament law. It's public stonings for murderers who shed innocent blood. And the reason for that is to instill a holy fear of God and fear of civil justice in the hearts of wrongdoers. Why? To protect vulnerable people. That's one thought. You want a piggy?

[C]

Yeah. I'll first say, you know, when you see all these horrible images and videos, just like pastorally, I want to just encourage people to be careful about what you watch. And you don't need to see all these videos. You don't need to watch every violent clip clip on the Internet. We're not really meant by God to see that kind of stuff. We weren't originally designed to see that kind of death and suffering. And it is horrific, it's traumatic. So I'd be careful with what you take in with your eyes. And if you find yourself just feeling aghast and horrified by that, it's normal to feel that way. We should not become calloused to seeing image bearers of God brutally murdered. It's a, a horrible thing. Then I would go to. Grief is a healthy and normal emotion. And I think Christians sometimes wrestle with this because we know that the joy of the Lord is our strength and we're supposed to rejoice in all things. And so we, we almost sometimes feel guilty that we're sad because we already intellectually know the answer, that, hey, well, these fellow believers are in heaven. But it's actually okay to give yourself permission to mourn and grieve loss or tragedy. Jesus wept and he already knew that there would be total victory over sin and death. So grieving is actually a healthy thing. It's a cathartic thing. It's a way to honor people's lives who we've lost and, and we loved. And then it's normal to feel anger. And there is a righteous type of anger that people can feel over injustice. God gets angry over injustice. And that's something that not a lot of Christians have thought about. Like imagine God being anger. It's not as angry. It's not a sin to be angry. The Bible says in your anger do not sin. So you can be angry about injustice, just mad. But that's not an excuse to lose your temper or to lash out sinfully against people, even if you feel like they deserve it. I think we have to feel those human emotions and bring them to God, knowing that he cares for us in our weakness and in our pain and even in our anger. And then as Christians, we want to harness that righteous anger for good and let it become resolved to do what's right, resolve to preach the gospel, resolve to reach people for Jesus. And then I would say you, you hit on this. Josh is there is a healthy desire for human justice. God establishes governance in the family, in the church and in society. And Romans 13 is clear. One of the roles of societal government is to reward the good and punish the wicked. It's a warning to other would be evildoers, don't do this or else you're going to get the same. Which is why I do think we should have public executions after a, a fair and speedy trial. It's also a way to protect would be victims from experiencing the same. We need to punish the evildoer and, and as a Christian, if you find yourself like longing for justice, like man, I want to see a murderer punished like that is not a sinful desire to have. God is a God of justice and ultimately every sin is punished. For Christians, we know that Jesus was punished for our sins, so we don't have to bear the punishment. That's why I think even when we see evildoers face justice or punishment, we can feel a type of righteous satisfaction. In it, without that becoming an unhealthy or sinful glee in the suffering of others, we can righteously be satisfied. Injustice, it's not revenge. It's justice. So that's a just kind of a complex, I think, range of, like, emotions and things that are like, like, simultaneously true at the same time. Like, I'm sad, I'm angry, I want justice. I want evildoers, though, to also be saved and know Jesus. But then at the same time, I want justice. And like, so what do you do with that? It's like, well, we're humans, man. Like, we're not meant to be the ones who figure it all out and resolve it perfectly. It's messy, isn't it?

[A]

So let me. Let me say a few things and then, Ryan, I want to kick it back to you. If there's anything else that you're like, man, I think Christians need to think about this right now. I'm gonna kick it back to you in a second. But as far as, like, what Christians need to do, in addition to what Ryan just said, I really would. When something strikes you like that, I would encourage every crit, take a walk and make sure. Would I lay my life down for this? And make sure the answer is yes, and the Lord will meet you in that. And there's actually a beauty, a redeeming aspect of the moment and something like that. We also have commands to Christians. Bless those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse. Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. And so will you guys throw that picture up of the one where the students are praying and then the ones where the cities burn it down. So this is that right there is the difference in the way that Christians react to tragedy and the way that people who are not Christians react to tragedy is, man, we're people who are called. We do not. We are not people of vengeance. Christians are law abiding citizens. That's what Christians are called to be. And so we channel all of that emotion that Ryan's talking about into things like prayer. You can take it down. Prayer. Honestly, dude, like, channeling that energy into doing what Charlie was doing and making sure that everybody everywhere knows that this is like one of his last tweets was, it's all about Jesus. You channel that energy in that direction. And then last thing I'd say is, indeed, you know, it's like, last night, it was totally irrational, but it's kind of thing that's normal and human is that Janet was like, hey, I'm a little nervous about you being on stage in front of thousands of people, and. And honestly, man, it was really good for my soul. To go back to Acts, chapter four, when the persecution breaks out on the church and they gather for that prayer meeting, and, you know, they say, I'm going to quote it. Why did the Gentiles rage and the peoples plot in vain against the Lord and his anointed? And then they say, they say, they pray, consider their threats, and grant your servants boldness to continue testifying to the truth without fear. And honestly, it is a thing where it's like, okay, man, let me go back and remember, whoever did that, they weren't just trying to do something to Charlie. They were. You know, they're trying to send a message to other people that's like, no, no, man. We are men and women of God. We have not been given a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power and of love and a right mind. And so we need to have something in our souls that says, lord, consider their threats and grant your servants boldness to continue to testify to the truth without fear.

[B]

But, yeah, on that note, Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I think we. We hear that verse, but we don't realize gates are actually defensive structures. They're not offensive weapons. And so when Jesus said, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it, Jesus didn't say, hey, hell is attacking, and so you got to hang in there. He didn't say that. He said, hell's gates won't stand against my church going in. And so the church is not in defense. It's an offense. And so to your point, Josh, like, man, we are. We're called to move by faith, by the grace of God, with fearlessness and our trust in the Lord and God. We have not received a fearful spirit. We have received a holy spirit.

[A]

Amen. Amen. Ryan, you got last words here on just, like, stuff that's stirring you. Like, man, I think Christians need to be. Be aware of this right now.

[C]

Yeah, I. I'm thankful that when I was in my young 20s and I deployed to Iraq, I remember my first mission, I went on, it, went through my head this thought, like, I could die, which you don't usually think about when you're in your young 20s. You kind of feel like you're invincible up until that point. And I had this realization, like, oh, yeah, I guess. I guess I could die. Like, if I die, I die. Like, oh, well, there's no point, like, letting that paralyze me or living in fear. Right. And I almost feel like that was a gift in some ways before entering into ministry in this season, when people who love Jesus are ultimately dying for their beliefs. And I think that's true with Charlie is he wasn't preaching from a pulpit yesterday, but all of his beliefs were shaped by his biblical views. And we believe the same things as Christians today. And I think, like, Josh, what you felt and the thought that went through your head, what Jana mentioned, it's like, so normal to think that. Like, I had that kind of thought go through my head as well yesterday. Like, man, someone could take a shot at me and I'd just be preaching like, that would just be terrible. It's the human thing to think about. What are the. What are they ultimately trying to do? They're trying to stop us from saying what we're saying and living the way that we live, believing what we believe. That's why the religious leaders arrested Peter and John and had them beaten. Stop preaching the name of Jesus. They wanted to shut them up. And it was a threat. It was, you will stop preaching the name of Jesus or else. And like you mentioned, the Christians had a natural fearful reaction. We. We can't always help it. When fear rises up in us. That's just like a normal kind of reaction a lot of times. But as Christians, I think we can choose how we respond to fear. We. We could say, okay, well, I'm going to play it safe, and I'm going to be a little bit less controversial, a little less aggressive, because I don't. I don't want to. Want to. You know, I don't want someone to take a shot at me. I don't want my kids to grow up without a dad. But that's not the right way to respond. We can't. On the other hand, we can take our fear like the early church did to the Lord, and say, God, we. We are feeling a little overwhelmed. We are. We are a little bit afraid right now. We need your help. And that's when in Acts 4, it says they were filled with the Holy Spirit. These. These are the same Christians who. I think we're filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts, chapter two, on the day of Pentecost, but it mentions them being filled with the Holy Spirit. Again, there was a new threat. It was a new day, and they needed a new filling of the Holy Spirit to be bold for Jesus in their world. Just like we need today, we need the Same thing today. The same solution to a new threat. Today, we need more of the Holy Spirit.

[A]

Amen. Amen. Amen.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Ryan, man, it's good to see your face, buddy.

[C]

You too. I needed that. I needed to see your face. I know, my friend.

[A]

Amen. Amen, man. I'm. I'm proud to be your friend, and I'm really grateful for your wisdom today, man. Ryan, would you. Would you pray for our people?

[C]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

Let's pray. Jesus, we need you. And we just come to you with. With all of our confusion and questions about the world. And honestly, a lot of us are just hurting today. And we're sad and we're angry and we're confused, like we just don't always understand what's happening around us. But we know that you're our answer. Our hope is in you, and that you are. Are strong and unshakable, even when the world around us is shaking. So I ask, Lord, that for all of your children that you would fill us with your spirit. It give us courage to be bold for Jesus, give us a heart to even love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. We want to see lost people not defeated or destroyed, but we want to see them transformed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. We want them to know the resurrection power of Jesus for themselves. Because we know that in you, Lord, there is life. I pray that everyone who hears this message today would be encouraged by your spirit, that they would be reminded of your promises that you will never leave us or forsake us. And that in you, we are already more than conquerors. We already are victorious. So we can look forward to our ultimate victory. And even when we're confused and unsure about what's happening around us, we know that you are unchanging and you are good. And you will work even bad things together for good. So we trust you, Lord, and we thank you in advance for the ways that you are going to turn this tragedy around and use it for good. In the days ahead, we pray this in Jesus name.

[A]

Amen. Amen. Amen. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to raise rate, review and share the podcast and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church. Live Free. We'll see you next time.