Ex-Catholic REVEALS Why He LEFT the Catholic Church!? (ft. Dr. Frank Turek) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton | Lakepointe Church

Episode: Ex-Catholic REVEALS Why He LEFT the Catholic Church!? (ft. Dr. Frank Turek)

Date: April 23, 2026

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Overview:

In this deeply insightful bonus episode, Carlos Horazo and Pastor Paul Cunningham sit down with renowned apologist Dr. Frank Turek to explore the key theological and practical differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. The episode moves from the personal—Frank’s history with Catholicism and the recent assassination of Charlie Kirk—to the theological, tackling topics like biblical authority, salvation, the papacy, conspiracy theories, and whether Catholics and Protestants truly worship the same God. The conversation is driven by authenticity, compassion, apologetic clarity, and a sincere desire to point listeners towards true faith in Jesus.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tribute to Charlie Kirk & Reflections on His Assassination

• Timestamps: 05:04 – 20:45
• Frank Turek shares his close personal relationship with Charlie Kirk, providing detailed and moving recollections of the day Kirk was assassinated and the aftermath.
• Discusses Charlie’s heart for truth, his humility, his big-picture thinking, and the evangelistic result of his memorial which reached over 1.2 billion people (20:43).
• Critiques conspiracy theories surrounding Charlie’s death and underscores the need for evidence over speculation.
• Notable Quote:
  • Frank Turek (17:08): “This doctor comes into the hall and he says he’s dead. Not sorry. We tried everything. None of that. Just with all the tenderness of a brick, he’s dead. I need to talk to Erica.”

2. Conspiracy Theories About Kirk’s Death

• Timestamps: 21:46 – 26:07
• Turek describes being falsely implicated by social media and addresses how Satan uses lies and slander to divide and distract.
• The team highlights the spiritual battle in the spread of false narratives and calls Christians to focus on the gospel and not fruitless speculation.

3. Catholicism’s Resurgence in the U.S. & Cultural Context

• Timestamps: 27:22 – 29:34
• Discussion of recent trends: American Catholics in leadership, a new American pope, and the surprising growth of Catholic identification, especially among Gen Z.
• The group frames the conversation as necessary to equip believers for a culture increasingly influenced by articulate Catholic voices.

4. Frank Turek’s Catholic Background and How He Found Protestant Faith

• Timestamps: 29:30 – 33:44
• Frank reflects on being raised Catholic in New Jersey and why, despite respect for the church, he moved toward Protestant faith after studying evidence-based apologetics.
• Notable Quote:
  • Frank Turek (30:49): “I always believed in God... but I just didn’t know who Jesus was. I never got that in the Catholic Church... It wasn’t until I was in the Navy... I read these Josh McDowell books, and I realized that Christianity was true.”

5. Core Differences: Authority—Sola Scriptura vs. Catholic Tradition

• Timestamps: 33:55 – 47:26
• Central question: Who has the ultimate authority, the Bible alone (sola scriptura) or Scripture plus church councils/tradition/the Pope?
• The hosts use church history and the early Church Fathers to demonstrate that the early church functionally affirmed sola scriptura.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Frank Turek (35:09): “Conservative evangelicals have more in common with conservative Catholics than with liberal Protestants.”
  • Paul Cunningham (41:59, quoting Gregory of Nyssa): “We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet...”
• Key point: The church did not create Scripture but recognized its authority (“The Church no more gave us the canon than Isaac Newton gave us gravity.” – J.I. Packer, 46:15).

6. Doctrinal Divergence: The Papacy and Apostolic Authority

• Timestamps: 47:26 – 51:41
• Examination of Matthew 16 (“Upon this rock...”) and the Catholic claim that Peter was the first Pope.
• Evidence from New Testament and early councils suggests Peter was not given unique authority, and the papacy as we know it developed much later.
• Peter is presented in the New Testament as a leader among equals; apostleship, not papal structure, characterized the early church.

7. Salvation & Justification: Works, Grace, and Assurance

• Timestamps: 51:41 – 61:32
• Deep dive into the doctrine of justification:
  • Catholic view distinguishes between initial (by grace) and final justification (involving merit by works); Frank critiques this as counter to the very definition of grace.
  • The Protestant view, as articulated by Turek and Cunningham: Salvation is by faith alone; works are the fruit, not the root.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Frank Turek (55:43): “The good works are the fruit of your salvation. They’re not the root of your salvation.”
  • Paul Cunningham (56:02): “Oftentimes people will use the same word, but in different ways… not talking about meriting your salvation, but showing the salvation you… have.”

8. Rapid-fire Responses to Common Catholic Objections

• Timestamps: 63:36 – 76:09
• Addressing whether sola scriptura is biblically warranted (it is, in principle, even if not in name).
• Responding to accusations about Protestant disunity (“denominations”)—not all division is bad, and unity is doctrinal/spiritual, not merely organizational.
• Refuting claims that Protestants are “latecomers” to Christianity; Reformers sought to restore biblical faith, not invent something novel.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Frank Turek (70:58): “I would rather have the essential truths presented by several denominations than be stuck with numerous errors presented by one organization.”
  • Paul Cunningham (69:52): “Official Catholic teaching says… Only 31% of US Catholics believe in [transubstantiation]... so much for unity.”

9. Catholicism & Islam – Do We Worship the Same God?

• Timestamps: 77:23 – 80:22
• The Pope’s outreach to Islam sparks discussion of fundamental doctrinal differences.
• Frank: Allah and Yahweh are not the same, as Islam denies the trinity and the deity of Christ.
• Notable Quote:
  • Frank Turek (77:38): “Allah is not triune, Yahweh is... Islam is basically Arianism—it’s a Christian heresy.”

10. Can Catholics Be Saved? Who Gets to Heaven?

• Timestamps: 80:22 – 88:22
• The hosts stress that belonging to a particular church or denomination is not the key issue; one must personally trust in Christ for salvation.
• Many Catholics (and Protestants) may not understand salvation—Frank is critical of the lack of gospel preaching in most Catholic Masses.
• Encourage listeners to ask: “Do you believe in Jesus for salvation?”
• Notable Quote:
  • Frank Turek (82:03): “Never heard grace or the gospel until the last Mass I went to. And that was my father’s funeral.”

11. Engaging Catholics and Non-Believers: Practical Pastoral Advice

• Timestamps: 84:41 – 88:22
• Differentiate between “cultural” Catholics and committed Catholics.
• Focus on relationship, lived faith, and presenting a personal experience and understanding of Jesus.

12. The Heart of the Gospel: Evangelism and Why Truth Matters

• Timestamps: 89:13 – 90:42
• The conversation ends by focusing on the need to bring people to Jesus, not just to a denomination.
• Memorable Moment/Quote:
  • Charlie Kirk (as relayed by Frank, 89:50): “You want to get them to Jesus? Why are you trying to get them into a church? ...You want to get them into a relationship with Jesus.”
• The gospel is good news—Christ did all the work; "It is finished".

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Frank Turek on Unity (70:58):
  “I would rather have the essential truths presented by several denominations than be stuck with numerous errors presented by one organization.”

• Paul Cunningham on Sola Scriptura (41:59):
  “We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet...” (quoting Gregory of Nyssa)

• Frank Turek on the Heart of the Gospel (61:32):
  “God created it, we broke it, Jesus fixed it.”

• Frank Turek on Works and Salvation (55:43):
  “Good works are the fruit of your salvation. They're not the root of your salvation.”

• Carlos Horazo (87:20):
  “The question is not, are you a Baptist or a Presbyterian, or are you a Catholic, or are you a Protestant? The question is, do you believe in Jesus for salvation?”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Personal Tribute & Assassination Account: 05:04 – 20:45
• Conspiracy Theories: 21:46 – 26:07
• Current State of Catholicism in Culture: 27:22 – 29:34
• Frank Turek’s Testimony: 29:30 – 33:44
• Authority (Sola Scriptura): 33:55 – 47:26
• The Papacy and Church Authority: 47:26 – 51:41
• Justification & Salvation by Faith: 51:41 – 61:32
• Rapid-fire Catholic Objections: 63:36 – 76:09
• Catholicism & Islam / Pope goes viral: 77:23 – 80:22
• Can Catholics Be Saved?: 80:22 – 88:22
• How to Engage Catholics / Evangelism: 84:41 – 88:22
• Final Gospel Focus: 89:13 – 90:42

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Tone, Style, and Approach

The episode is lively, warm, direct, and often humorous ("Hey bro!" and “Yo bro!” are part of the show's friendly banter). Difficult issues are handled compassionately but with theological precision. The speakers emphasize unity-in-essentials, respectful disagreement, and the primacy of a personal relationship with Jesus over denominational identity. The ultimate goal is not winning arguments but pointing all people to the grace and truth of the gospel.

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Conclusion:

If you want to grasp the central theological differences between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity—without caricature or bitterness—while also hearing heartfelt reflections on personal faith, tragedy, and public witness, this episode is for you. The show challenges both traditions to center on Christ, to test everything by Scripture, and to see people come to saving faith in Jesus alone.

Transcript

[Frank Turek]

Good works are the fruit of your salvation. They're not the root of your salvation.

[Paul Cunningham]

The same grace that saves us also sustains us and it transforms us.

[Josh Howerton]

Charlie Kirk did great things, but he's not in heaven because he died for his Savior. Charlie Kirk is in heaven because his Savior died for Charlie Kirk.

[Carlos Horazo]

The question is not are you a Baptist or are you a Presbyterian or are you a Catholic or are you a Protestant? The question is, do you believe in Jesus for salvation? Well, hey, Lit Free nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church Online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to a bonus episode of the live free podcast. My name is Carlos Horazo, and today I'm here with Pastor Paul Cunningham. And today we have a special guest. This right here. Paul is somebody who has spent decades faithfully defending the Christian faith.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes, he has.

[Carlos Horazo]

He's been on college campuses, high profile debates, live Q and A. He is a gifted, brilliant, apologist, philosopher, author of multiple bestselling books, including I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. He is the president of crossexamen.org he is a friend and a man of God whom we deeply admire here in the Live Free podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. Frank Turek.

[Josh Howerton]

Hey.

[Frank Turek]

Hey. I'm nervous because I'm sitting in the great Josh Howerton seat. Hey, man. Hey, bro. Hey, we're gonna do one more point. We're gonna wrap this.

[Carlos Horazo]

Hey, you got the hat.

[Frank Turek]

I got the hat right here.

[Paul Cunningham]

T shirt. I mean, you got the whole thing.

[Carlos Horazo]

You fit right in.

[Frank Turek]

I wore the T shirt in honor of Josh. The hat in honor of Josh. Well, the T shirt in honor of Charlie and Josh.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, man.

[Frank Turek]

Josh will be back next Week. Right. This is not a permanent thing, is it?

[Carlos Horazo]

We hope.

[Frank Turek]

Okay. All right.

[Carlos Horazo]

We hope so. Although we will have you back later this year.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah. So it's gonna be fun. Hey, Frank, first of all, thank you for being here, man.

[Frank Turek]

It is my pleasure. I listen to every. Actually, I watch every live free podcast. Great. Podc, one of my favorites. Probably my favorite podcast out there. And you're neck and neck with Father Mike Schmitz in the ratings. You guys out there, you guys. You guys need to start telling your friends about the live free podcast because we need to overtake. We need to overtake Father Schmitz.

[Carlos Horazo]

We're gonna. We're gonna talk about Catholicism. Maybe this is the. By the way, Frank, the first time I heard about you, I was in college, and it was during the New Atheism movement. It was kind of like picking up. And one of the books that was extremely helpful for me was this one, Stealing from God, basically, like, grabbed it and made it, like, a textbook of mine. And so, man, you've blessed my life deeply. I just want to say that. Oh, thank you, brother man. And one thing that I appreciate from you. We were talking about this during lunch, is you're not just obviously a brilliant man, but you're also compassionate. You're. You're a very patient man. You can. And if somebody doesn't know, you can just literally go find Frank on any video. And your patience just, you know, oozes out naturally, but you have a heart of a father who loves people, and so that's rare.

[Frank Turek]

Patience. You haven't seen me drive, but hopefully, no, hopefully, I try and answer a

[Josh Howerton]

person, not just a question.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's good.

[Frank Turek]

And that's what you want to do. You don't want to win an argument

[Josh Howerton]

and lose a person. So that's what we try and do on college campuses.

[Carlos Horazo]

In an age of outrage and people just wanting to crush each other and win arguments, I think you. You're a voice that is a blessing, and it's a fresh. It's a. It's. It's a good. It's a good thing that we have people like you.

[Paul Cunningham]

Thank you, brother.

[Carlos Horazo]

Hey, for people that are wondering, that awesome hat that Frank is wearing, we. Every single episode, we do a giveaway, so comment. Freedom to participate in this week's giveaway. And we're going to be selecting some. Today, we're going to be talking about the main differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. That's us, by the way. We're going to be addressing the biggest objections Catholics have Against Protestant theology. We're going to be reacting to some headlines about the Pope and Islam. And answer the question, is it true, like, official Catholic teaching says that Christians and Muslims worship the same God? And so, yeah, it's gonna be fun.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

And they don't. All right, good night, ladies and gentlemen.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's all we needed. That's all we needed.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's right. Hey, but before we do, Frank, I want to. I want to start asking you something a little bit more personal. I want to ask you this. You were very close to Charlie Kirk. Actually, you're wearing that shirt in honor of Charlie. And a lot of people might not know this, but you were there with him the day Charlie got assassinated. And so can you. I want to ask you, can you share, you know, just a little bit of what that experience was for you and kind of just how that's shaped you and kind of where you are at today?

[Frank Turek]

Sure. Charlie and I go back to January 2020, when he emailed our ministry, and he had been watching some of the Q and A that we do on college campuses, and he found them helpful,

[Josh Howerton]

these Q and A videos.

[Frank Turek]

And so he wanted to meet. And when we met, he said, hey, could you mentor me in Christian apologetics?

[Josh Howerton]

Evidence for the Faith.

[Frank Turek]

Now, it can be difficult to mentor someone smarter than you, because Charlie was brilliant, but the only thing that exceeded

[Josh Howerton]

his intellect was his humility.

[Frank Turek]

So the few things I knew that he didn't know, he wanted to know. And so he would invite me to every TPUSA event, and we would meet privately quite a bit. And last summer, summer 25, we met on four occasions in Phoenix to sit down and go through the most difficult questions that each of us get on a college campus. Mostly related to Christianity, but also related to political issues and cultural issues as well. And so the third time we met was August, and he said, hey, I'm going to be coming back From Japan on September

[Josh Howerton]

7, I think it was.

[Frank Turek]

He said, can you come back out that day? Because I want some prep time before the very first event at Utah Valley

[Josh Howerton]

University on September 10th.

[Frank Turek]

We could spend a couple of days together, and then why don't you just

[Josh Howerton]

come with me to the first event?

[Frank Turek]

Said, sure. So came out, and we spent some time Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.

[Josh Howerton]

The event was on Wednesday. In fact, we went on a long walk.

[Frank Turek]

We would not only meet during the day, but on evenings. He would say, hey, after Eric and I put the kids down, why don't you and I go on a long

[Josh Howerton]

walk, and we'll just talk about Whatever issues we could. And so, let's see.

[Frank Turek]

Monday, September 8th, he and I went

[Josh Howerton]

on a walk through his neighborhood with a 300 pound armed bodyguard behind us.

[Frank Turek]

And the three major issues we talked

[Josh Howerton]

about that night were the government, politics,

[Frank Turek]

Islam in particular, secondly, the resurrection. How can we be better at convincing people that here's the great evidence that

[Josh Howerton]

Jesus rose from the dead so they actually trust in Christ?

[Frank Turek]

And the third thing he wanted to

[Josh Howerton]

talk about was how can we get

[Frank Turek]

our generation, his generation, he was 31 at the time, to embrace marriage and the family, because while men appeared to want to embrace marriage, women didn't, according to the survey. So Those are the three major issues we talked about. Walk in for about 90 minutes. Now, in retrospect, I realized that Charlie was talking about the three institutions that

[Josh Howerton]

God created, Government, the family, and the church.

[Frank Turek]

He was a big forward thinker, a big picture thinker that could dive down into the details. So he was talking about the central issues really to Christians and to civilization. He wanted to be better at those issues. So the next day we had a meeting, a zoom meeting with a couple of people in Israel and a couple of people in the room and another person, an expert on Israel in the United States. And we were asking them, and Charlie was asking them, tell me your perspective on what's going on with Hamas now

[Josh Howerton]

and the Israeli situation.

[Frank Turek]

Tell me. I want to be better able to answer questions when I get questions on this. So contrary to popular opinion, some popular opinion, that Charlie was giving up on

[Josh Howerton]

Israel, that's not true.

[Frank Turek]

He was trying to prepare himself to know the facts and be better able to answer those questions.

[Josh Howerton]

This is the day before he was murdered. We're in this meeting.

[Frank Turek]

I'm in the meeting with him. So the next day we get up, we fly up to Utah and he actually, we had to stop to do a. He was going to do a presentation to a group of restaurateurs because his cousin was a restaurateur and said, charlie, could you come speak to my group of restaurant owners? And search. We stop at this place, he walks in, he does an hour talk on entrepreneurship. Get back in the car, we head to the university.

[Paul Cunningham]

Wow.

[Frank Turek]

I mean, Charlie could talk about anything about success, right? So on our way in, we get some footage from the venue from Up High. Originally I thought it was drone footage, but in retrospect, there was a walkway above us that somebody was just had their phone apparently over the walkway and it showed this huge crowd. This is like. And maybe an hour before we were due to be there. And he's showing me the video, and

[Josh Howerton]

I go, I said, charlie, I don't like this place. There are too many buildings. He just kind of shrugged it off

[Frank Turek]

because he knew in order to reach

[Josh Howerton]

people and love people, he had to

[Frank Turek]

put himself in harm's way to a certain extent.

[Josh Howerton]

In fact, love involves sacrifice, and you can't wall yourself off from people completely. So he didn't.

[Frank Turek]

And so we pull up, the crowd is just going crazy. We're about 50 yards from the crowd

[Josh Howerton]

when we pull up in this suv

[Frank Turek]

and he gets out, there's a whole group of kids from TPUSA wanting to meet him.

[Josh Howerton]

He stops, says hello to them, takes pictures with them.

[Frank Turek]

And when we walk on over to the, to the venue, as people are just screaming, there's a point when he

[Josh Howerton]

looks at me and he goes, welcome

[Frank Turek]

to the big leagues. Because, look, I do college events. That's why he reached out to me. But I'll attract a few hundred.

[Carlos Horazo]

And by the way, you've been doing college events for like 20 years. 20 years. Long time.

[Paul Cunningham]

Long time.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, he's done them for five or six years. He's not even doing a presentation, and there are thousands of people waiting to hear him just answer questions. So then he starts flipping hats. Somebody hands me a row of hats. I'm flipping hats. In fact, Trinity, I'll send you some pictures. You can put it up, you can show people. We're just flipping hats. And then he says, okay, it's time to go. He sits down under this tent. I'm about 20ft from him, 25ft from

[Josh Howerton]

him, off his right elbow. I'm just parallel to him outside the tent and

[Frank Turek]

FaceTiming my wife.

[Josh Howerton]

And then I FaceTime my son and daughter in law, who are big Charlie fans and Santa, can you.

[Frank Turek]

Matt, this is amazing. These people are just screaming. It was a Trump rally times two with no Trump and people just screaming for Q and A. And someone gives me a hat.

[Josh Howerton]

So I have a hat on, a white 47 hat. And

[Frank Turek]

the first question is about Mormonism. We knew we'd get a question on that. We were talking about it on the way in the car. We're in Utah. Of course we're going to get questions on Mormonism. And Charlie's very gracious. We have big theological differences, but I have Mormons on my staff and I love them. You know, I want them to know

[Josh Howerton]

the true gospel, that kind of thing. Second question is about transgender violence, particularly should transgender people have access to guns because of the uptick in violence, perpetrated by transgender people. And so this kid is asking Charlie this question when I hear the pop and I see Charlie go back and so I take a step toward him, but his security team is on him already. And so just like everybody else, I'm thinking, are there more shots?

[Frank Turek]

So I duck. It's all on video.

[Josh Howerton]

Somehow someone has it on video. I duck. And then they grab him and they take him on the other side of the tent.

[Frank Turek]

And so I run alongside from the,

[Josh Howerton]

the left side of the tent, if you're looking at it.

[Frank Turek]

And I run with them as they're carrying Charlie to the SUV that we came in on.

[Josh Howerton]

And I, I always thought somebody was going to take a shot at Charlie at some point. And I said to myself, if I'm ever there, just do whatever you can to help, you know, I mean, he was like a son to me, you know. And so I just get in the back of the suv. I just came in the back hatch. I'm the only non security guy in the suv. And so they have Charlie laid out across the back seat. Rick is holding his head on my left. Brian has his mid body, so to speak, and his legs. Justin's driving. Dan is in the front with his phone for directions to the hospital.

[Frank Turek]

Go, go, go, go.

[Josh Howerton]

Of course, we're all trying to stop the bleeding. And he's not looking at me, he's looking past me, like right into eternity. His, his eyes are fixed. He's not there. And at one point I started to try CPR on him, but he's not responding. And we're as, we're. This is not, it's not emergency vehicles, no lights, nothing. We're just.

[Frank Turek]

His feet are hanging out the right door because he's so tall. We can't close the door. But to this day, I don't know

[Josh Howerton]

how Brian stayed in the SUV because we're yanking and banking all the way to the, to the hospital.

[Frank Turek]

And at one point there's an ambulance coming this way toward us. And we're like, should we stop? No, no, just keep going. Just keep, just get him there. And so we scream into the emergency room, carrying him into the emergency room and we lay him down. Where is everybody? It's like they didn't know we were coming, you know, I don't know how. But within two minutes, the team descended on him. And of course Rick and I, the whole way there, we're praying out loud

[Josh Howerton]

like, come on, Charlie, come on.

[Frank Turek]

Meanwhile, the whole time I had put

[Josh Howerton]

my phone in my back pocket without hanging up. I just didn't think of it, you

[Frank Turek]

know, like as soon as he was hit, I just put the phone in my back pocket and started running. And my son and daughter in law

[Josh Howerton]

are hearing the whole thing. They're hearing the whole thing in the car on the way over. And so the team descends on them and they say, we have a heartbeat. So Rick and I are going, he looked dead. I mean, he looked. Yeah, maybe there's hope. We're praying. Mikey shows up. His assistant, 23 years old, well beyond his years and maturity. He's on the phone with JD Vance. He's already called Erica, sent a plane to get Erica. And then maybe a half hour, we're kind of standing out in the hall. The nurses were great. They like come in here, get cleaned up, you know, because blood everywhere. And then we're standing in the hall just waiting. We're in scrubs now and this doctor comes into the hall and he says he's dead.

[Frank Turek]

Not sorry. We tried everything. None of that. Just with all the tenderness of a brick, he's dead. I need to talk to Erica.

[Josh Howerton]

Mikey's on the phone going, wow, wow.

[Frank Turek]

I need to tell Erica so she doesn't hear about it in the media first. Right.

[Josh Howerton]

All this, how did they get a heartbeat? The doctor later said, if you have a healthy person like Charlie, even though he's dead, you can restart the heart. And we later learned that Charlie was killed instantly. He didn't feel anything. And the doctor said if he had been shot in the operating room, we couldn't have saved him.

[Paul Cunningham]

Wow, wow.

[Josh Howerton]

So it wasn't like, oh, you didn't go fast enough.

[Frank Turek]

There wasn't an ambulance there, none of that.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, right.

[Josh Howerton]

So everyone's in shock. Obviously. This probably happened Utah time. The murder happened somewhere around 12:15, 12:20. Erica probably got to the hospital around 3 maybe. And then by 6:00 clock or so after, Erica had time to talk to the doctors and see Charlie, and

[Frank Turek]

she

[Josh Howerton]

came into the hallway. I saw her, she saw me, we embraced and she said, he was doing what he wanted to do and he loved you.

[Frank Turek]

Please

[Josh Howerton]

don't let his legacy die. And so it's not just me trying to carry it on. There's so many others as well. And what's happened since then? I mean, we went. It's amazing they could pull together a memorial service like they did.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Howerton]

There was 75,000 people in the room and about a 30 or 40,000 in the arena next to us. There were 100 million people watching online.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah. You had the opportunity of speaking in the memorial service.

[Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Carlos Horazo]

Some people would say this was probably one of the largest evangelistic moments in modern history where the gospel was shared.

[Josh Howerton]

I think it was in all of history. And when you have the president on down talking about Jesus and even government officials like Marco Rubio, who knew.

[Paul Cunningham]

Oh, my goodness.

[Frank Turek]

Who knew Marco with the gospel like

[Josh Howerton]

he gave it, you know, they were all great in that regard. And my only goal in the five minutes I. Look, Winston Churchill said this. Something like this. If you give me an hour to speak, I need five minutes to get ready. If you give me five minutes, I need a week. So I labored over that for a whole week. How could I honor Charlie but also give the gospel? So I just tried to say, Charlie Kirk did great things, but he's not in heaven because he died for his savior. Charlie Kirk is in heaven because his savior died for Charlie Kirk. So Rubio gave the gospel, Hegseth gave the gospel. Everybody, in some way, gave the gospel that day. And at last I heard, as of November of last year, 1.2 billion people have seen some of that memorial service.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

Wow.

[Josh Howerton]

So God can bring good from evil.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's right. That's right. I mean, it's. It speaks to Charlie's legacy as well, of somebody who pointed to Christ and what he did with. Through his life. First of all, thank you for sharing that, Frank. Yeah, appreciate that, man. After I remember, you know, everything came out, and I saw a couple videos, and all of a sudden, everybody's talking about it on social media. And there was one video where you were in it, and people started saying different things about, you know, everybody's got a theory about what's actually going on, what's happening. And one of the videos was about you. And I remember seeing it, and I've seen that video before, but I didn't know it was you. All sorts of conspiracy theories started to come out of that social media again. All these other influencers, like Candace Owens, and people had thoughts of who was involved, who was not involved, what actually happened. How do you process those claims? And what do you think people are getting right and wrong about some of these conspiracy theories out there?

[Josh Howerton]

Yeah, the conspiracy theory was that I was signaling the shooter because I adjusted my hat. In fact, the FBI even asked me about it. They tracked down every conspiracy theory. They don't tell you they're doing that, but if it's possible, they'll ask you. They called me.

[Frank Turek]

Were you signaling the shooter? Yeah, I was telling them to steal second base.

[Josh Howerton]

I mean, how Stupid. Is this right?

[Frank Turek]

I mean, any shooter didn't need me

[Josh Howerton]

to tell them who Charlie Kirk was

[Frank Turek]

and couldn't even see me in the

[Josh Howerton]

scope anyway, so it doesn't make any sense.

[Frank Turek]

But with these conspiracy theories, Let me

[Josh Howerton]

just put it this way. Jesus and the apostles said that Satan

[Frank Turek]

is a murderer, liar, accuser, and slanderer

[Josh Howerton]

who seeks to steal, kill, and destroy. Notice we had a murder on 9 10. What have we had since then? Lies, accusations, and slander, seeking to steal, kill, and destroy. This is completely demonically influenced.

[Frank Turek]

It's one thing to have a theory.

[Josh Howerton]

It's another thing to have evidence for that theory.

[Frank Turek]

Dreams and time travel are not evidence.

[Josh Howerton]

Okay.

[Frank Turek]

I could make a case that Candace Owens killed him. It's plausible. I don't have any evidence for it, though. And it's completely ridiculous for me to say she did it. But that's essentially what she's saying, that somehow TP USA is involved, Eric is involved somehow. It's sinister.

[Josh Howerton]

It's demonic to say these things.

[Frank Turek]

In fact, in the old testament, Exodus 22:22, in the Old Testament economy,

[Josh Howerton]

God says, if you abuse a widow or the fatherless, I will hunt you down with the sword and kill you. This is what God says in Deuteronomy 19.

[Frank Turek]

It says, if you falsely accuse someone of a crime and you're found out, you get the penalty of that crime. So if you accuse somebody of murder falsely, you're the one that will be executed. Man, that would shut down the Internet, now, wouldn't it? If we had the Old Testament law in place here.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah.

[Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

So this is what God thinks about running down widows and orphans. And of course, in the Old Testament,

[Josh Howerton]

you always had to have at least two witnesses.

[Frank Turek]

Where are the witnesses? There are no witnesses. In fact, the witnesses and the evidence

[Josh Howerton]

that we have shown, unless something crazy

[Frank Turek]

comes up, that the person who killed

[Josh Howerton]

Charlie was Tyler Robinson, and he killed him because he didn't like what Charlie was saying about transgenderism, and he was involved in a transgender relationship.

[Frank Turek]

So that appears to be the evidence. Now, it still has to go to trial. But to suggest without evidence that people who love Charlie the most were involved

[Josh Howerton]

in murdering him is against what the scriptures say. And it's demonic in my view.

[Paul Cunningham]

Amen. Well, like, with that, in situations, sometimes I'll have to stop and ask myself, okay, if I were God, and obviously these are hypotheticals, I'm like, hey, in situations like this, like, if I were God, what would I want to happen right now? What would I be trying to do right now? It's like, as we already shared. I mean, from that service, you had a billion people watch. Gospel was given clear, like, that's what I would be wanting to do is take something that was so dark and evil, but use it for good, use it for the salvation of people. But then I asked myself, the second question is, okay, if I were the enemy, if I was Satan, what would I be trying to do right now? And if I saw that much attention being put on Jesus and the gospel, I'm like, hey, let me use that. But now let's put our attention to other things and speculations and things like that and slander and get people obsessed with that and get the attention off of Jesus and off of the true legacy of Charlie. And so then when I asked him, like, okay, general, only a good thing in life is to partner with God and not with Satan generally. Generally speaking, it's like, those are just these situations. I say that because, because maybe even the people watching, listening to this have maybe gotten caught up in some of that stuff. And I just to just like what you're saying, Frank is like, man, I just would encourage you if you have put it down now, it's like, don't get caught up in that stuff. Stop partnering with what Satan actually wants to use the situation for. And instead, let's get back to what Charlie's true legacy was, and that's his faith in Jesus, and let's partner with what God wants to do from it.

[Josh Howerton]

Exactly.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah. I mean, 2 Timothy 2, 16. This is Paul speaking to a younger disciple, Timothy. He literally says, avoid godless chatter. Other translations say irreverent babble, worthless talk, foolish talk, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. This is something, you know, again, we're in the social media space a lot. Obviously, you know, we try to listen to what's out there, but there's wisdom in trying to figure out, hey, at what point does it become godless chatter or irreverent babble? And at the end of the day, man, you want to, you want to be mindful of what you feed your mind. You want to be intentional in how you use your time wisely. And some of these conspiracy theories are just not worth it if you're a Christian. And for sure, Frank, I think, you know, one huge takeaway, obviously we could keep going on and on about Charlie's legacy and so much one of the takeaways for, for us, I think, from Charlie's legacy is that we realize, man, what is often called the quote, unquote. The culture war can be a platform for the gospel, not so much destruction from it. And I think we. We see that in his life and literally after. In many ways, after Charlie's assassination, we have seen a spiritual stirring in our nation.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Carlos Horazo]

And we're seeing. As a church, we're seeing people come to church. You know, everybody's talking about a reawakening of faith. People are seeking truth. People are picking up their Bibles again, asking the right questions about how do you have the relationship that Charlie had with Jesus? And. And so, man, this is why I wanted to have this conversation with you as well as we transition towards talking about Catholicism. Whenever I talk to people in the lobby, Paul, honestly, probably the thing that people ask the most is on Catholicism. Hey, what do you make of it? Statistically, today, 20% of US adults identify as Catholic. And at the same time, many people. You'll see this on social media. They're seeing an increase in adults converting to Catholicism in the last several years. 2023 data shows Gen Z American adults being slightly more likely to identify as Catholic than Protestant, which is interesting. I want to hear your thoughts on this in just a second. In 2025, we had the election of the first American Pope. Based on what we know now, at least three of the White Sox fan.

[Paul Cunningham]

Sorry, I'm a Cubs fan, so.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, you are? Yeah. Some call him Bob from Chicago.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

Okay.

[Carlos Horazo]

Based on what we know now, at least three of the likely nominees for president in 2028 are Catholic. Overall, there just seems to be an increase in Catholic voices, apologists and more. And so here's what I want to ask Frank. What I want to do is basically, I want to hear your story. I know you converted from Catholicism. We're going to distinguish. Hey, these are the main differences between Catholic theology and Protestant theology. We're going to rapid fire some quick objections, and then we're going to talk about the Pope and then we're going to wrap it up.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Carlos Horazo]

Sound like a plan?

[Frank Turek]

It's a plan.

[Paul Cunningham]

Let's go.

[Carlos Horazo]

We got. But before we do, you're somebody that's fun to hang out with. Frank, I got a couple memes that I think are going to feel appropriate. This is. Yeah. It says here that's a nice door you have there. It would be a shame if somebody nailed something. And then we have another one over here. Nice doctrines you have there. It'd be a shame if somebody examined them by scripture. That's what we're gonna do today.

[Josh Howerton]

Let's do it.

[Carlos Horazo]

Frank, you converted to Catholicism or from.

[Paul Cunningham]

From.

[Carlos Horazo]

From Catholic school?

[Frank Turek]

I grew up. Look, I'm from New Jersey.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

Yes, and I was Catholic.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

I was Catholic because it's the law. Look, you're either Catholic, you're Jewish, or you're skeptic if you're from Jersey. So I went to Catholic high school, the whole deal. And I always believed in God because I knew there had to be a first cause. And I knew God was moral. I knew the moral law was pressing on me. This is what Paul, of course, says in Romans 1. In Romans 1, he talks about creation, so there must be a creator. In Romans 2, he talks about conscience. So this creator must be a being that is moral. And I always knew that this kind of God existed, but I just didn't know who Jesus was. I never got that in the Catholic Church. From my perspective, anyway. Some Catholics will say we just weren't listening. No, I actually was listening, and I didn't quite get it. It wasn't until I was in the Navy, which stands for, by the way, never again volunteer yourself. I was in the Navy, and I met the son of a Methodist minister. And I had so many questions for him. He finally said, look, you just need to get Josh McDowell books. Evidence demands a verdict. And more than a carpenter. These were books written before you were born, back in, like, the seventies. Paul was born.

[Paul Cunningham]

No, I was

[Frank Turek]

way back when. Paul, why have you never been to Israel? That's what I want to know.

[Carlos Horazo]

And that's a great question.

[Frank Turek]

Wow. And I'm here now because Pastor Josh is, like, somewhere overseas on some sort of.

[Paul Cunningham]

Did he call you and tell you that?

[Frank Turek]

No, I just want to know how come he doesn't take you there.

[Paul Cunningham]

This is a great question. Because you haven't been to Israel, and then he got to go to Greece. Not been to Greece. I'm not. I'm making a list of places where he hasn't been, and one day I will pull those out. I think there's, like, one.

[Frank Turek]

Like, he probably hasn't been to Bayonne, New Jersey. Would you like to go there?

[Paul Cunningham]

Listen, if you want to take me, I'd be glad to go there. We can take a picture and ask him, have you been here? But, yeah, keep going, Keep going.

[Frank Turek]

So where were we? Okay. So I met the son of the Methodist minister. I had so many questions for him. He said, get these Josh McDowell books. I read these books, and I realized that Christianity was true. And then when I got out of the Navy, I Met Norman Geisler, who at the time was sort of the Michael Jordan of apologetics or the Tom Brady of apologetics or update it. And he was starting a seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. And so in 1993, my wife and I and our three sons, five and under, moved to Charlotte. There was no online, there was no Internet. You had to actually go to the place to learn from the guy himself. And so we did. And that was in 1993. We moved there, didn't have a job, three kids under the age of five. Somehow God worked it out.

[Josh Howerton]

And we went to seminary there.

[Frank Turek]

And he and I wrote a couple

[Josh Howerton]

of books together, Dr. Geiser and I.

[Frank Turek]

The first one was called Legislating Morality. You always hear you can't legislate morality. The truth of the matter is that's all you can legislate. The only question is whose morality. So that's what that book is about. And then secondly, we wrote a book called I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an atheist in 2004, which, by the way, is about to be updated.

[Josh Howerton]

It's coming out in October, the new update.

[Carlos Horazo]

Hey, last time you were here, we said that it surpassed a million copies.

[Paul Cunningham]

It's close.

[Carlos Horazo]

I'm not sure. Okay, we need to change that right now.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, it's close.

[Carlos Horazo]

Lift Free nation. We're going to deploy.

[Frank Turek]

Well, just like Gavin Newson, my mom bought 900,000.

[Carlos Horazo]

Okay, so. So if you have not yet. We're going to include this in the description of this video on YouTube and Spotify and all the things. So. So I hope, Frank, that by the next time you're here, you can tell us. Hey, we made it.

[Frank Turek]

Went over a thousand.

[Carlos Horazo]

There you go. A million.

[Frank Turek]

A million.

[Carlos Horazo]

There you go.

[Frank Turek]

So we wrote that book, and then in 2006, I started Cross examine.org to go to colleges, high schools and churches

[Josh Howerton]

to present the evidence that Christianity is true.

[Frank Turek]

So I was brought up in the Catholic Church, but I thought that after doing research that there were some doctrines in Catholicism that I didn't think were correct.

[Josh Howerton]

And so I'm a Protestant now. Non denominational, evangelical, Lake Point kind of church.

[Carlos Horazo]

Live free. Let's live free.

[Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Carlos Horazo]

There you go.

[Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Carlos Horazo]

Okay, so for the normal person asking, we got two brilliant men around here and I want to know what is the main difference between Catholicism and Protestantism?

[Frank Turek]

Well, the source of the main difference is authority.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Frank Turek]

Who is the right authority? Is it just the scriptures, sola scriptura, or is it the scriptures plus church councils plus church Tradition plus popes. That's the source of the difference. And maybe we could start there and then we can get into, probably justification is what we should talk about the most, because that is a key difference, I think, anyway, between what Protestants believe and what Roman Catholics believe. But before we get there, I just preface this in a couple of ways. First of all, some of these issues are nuanced and complicated, and we're not gonna be able to cover the waterfront in this podcast. So the book that I find most helpful on this is a book written by my co author. This is it. It's called Roman Catholics and Agreements and differences. It's over 30 years old, but it's still, I think, the standard work on the topic. It's even endorsed by Roman Catholics. Not that they everything in it, but they say it's a fair book. And it's by Norman geisler and Ralph McKenzie. So this is 500 pages, if you really want to get into details. This is where you want to go.

[Carlos Horazo]

I'm reading it.

[Frank Turek]

You got it, too.

[Carlos Horazo]

I got it, too. So I'm working on it. And it's a good book so far. It's great.

[Frank Turek]

I will say this, too, that conservative evangelicals have more in common with conservative Catholics than they do with liberal Protestants. Okay? So the biggest issue between Catholics and conservatives, or Catholics and evangelicals, is more along the lines of, do you really believe the Bible's true or not? Because I have more in common with a conservative Catholic than I do with a liberal Protestant. Liberal Protestants are like him singing Rotary Clubs. They don't even really believe the Bible. So let me say that. And most of the venues at which I speak, if it's a church, it's obviously a Protestant church. And there, or even on a college campus from Protestants, I'll get this question, do you think Catholics can be saved? And my answer is, I even think some Baptist can be saved. Okay, that's right, because it's not where you go to church. It's whether or not you've accepted the free gift of salvation that Christ has provided. You've repented of your sins and you've accepted that. But there is some nuance here that we want to get into. So let me just mention what we agree on. We agree on a lot in this book, by the way. Roman Catholics and Evangelicals goes into a lot of details, but here's some of the things we agree on, on with Roman Catholics and Evangelicals agree on. We agree on God, the nature of human beings. We agree on Christ. Roman Catholics Believe that you need grace to be saved and you need a savior. We agree, of course, on all of the New Testament. We'll talk about the differences in the Old Testament. We agree on ethics. We agree on last things. So we agree on a lot. What do we disagree on? Here are some of the major issues. Who is the authority? Sola scriptura or not justification, the apocrypha, sacramentalism, Mariology, and purgatory are some of the things we disagree on. All right, so how do we then unpack this? How do we know who's right, if anyone, on this? And I don't know, Paul, why don't you start us off, since you're. What's it, Paul, Chat, chat G. Paul C. Chat G, Paul C. There you go. Start us off. What is sola Scripture, Paul? Start us there.

[Paul Cunningham]

I'm glad you said, because, honestly, what makes it hard sometimes when you're talking to a Catholic and same thing with Eastern Orthodox believers, is that they'll often define sola scriptura in ways that I'm like, well, I actually don't think that's what sola scriptura means because they think, oh, so you think the only authority is Bible? I'm like, no, I believe the only infallible authority is the Bible and it's the final authority. So to your point, it's like, for example, I agree with Katz on the Council of Nicaea. I think in order to be a faithful Christian, you have to believe the thing that is in the Nicene Creed and is true and it was a reflection of the Bible. But that's the point is that when I go and read the Nicene Creed in order to establish its truth, I have to be able to go back to Scripture and say, okay, Scripture is the final authority over what this says is true, not over whether the bishops necessarily there thought it was. At the end of the day, glad the bishops said what they said, but I have to go back to the Bible to establish what they said as true or not. And so that being said to what you're saying is a Catholic would say they believe that the Bible is infallible, just that it's not the only source of infallibility. And in fact, they would say, you need an infallible interpreter of infinity.

[Frank Turek]

We got to talk about that later.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly. Which is kind of a funny thing, because there's a whole thing which would

[Carlos Horazo]

be another source of infallibility.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, but you don't need an infallible interpreter of that interpreter. You just need the one. But you can kind of see where he probably and I are going the same place. You got to be careful, gotta be careful, gonna jump it. And so, yeah, so that would be the big difference is we would say, hey, we have to establish every doctrine, including the ones that we just said. We agree with Calcuson, but we would say, hey, we establish those based on whether we see it in Scripture. If for some reason later the church comes up with a doctrine or develops doctrine and we don't see that taught in Scripture, then we're not going to accept it because Scripture is the final authority. Is that so far you would agree in.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, yeah. And the other angle on this I would take is I think sometimes Catholics think that sola scriptura means that we think we get all our information from the Bible. No, you can't. That's impossible. I mean, you need to know logic, you need to know grammar, you need to know. Even I often talk about, say the first verse of the Bible which says, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. What does that assume? It assumes, you know what a beginning is. It assumes, you know, have some idea of what God is. It assumes, you know, that there's some cause and effect between God creating the heavens and the earth. It's making so many assumptions. So God has given us two sources of revelation. His Word. Yes, but also his works, which we also call natural revelation.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

You have natural revelation before. You have what we call special revelation, His Word. We have his works before His Word. And when we say sola scriptura, we do not mean we get all our information from the Bible. That would be impossible. What it means is when it comes to faith and practice, the Bible is our authority. Not popes, not church councils, not church tradition. They may be informative, they may agree, but if there's a disagreement, it's the Scriptures that are supreme.

[Carlos Horazo]

So you're saying that they could have some authority, but that authority is under the highest authority of Scripture.

[Paul Cunningham]

So I forget who has said this, but they're like, let's just use the Nicene Creed. You know, 1700 year anniversary was last year. Classic formation around what we believe, specifically around Jesus and the Trinity. And the Nicene Creed has more authority than me, but the Bible has more authority than it. Yes, that's the point of sola scriptura. And what's interesting is Catholics, especially nowadays, will say, well, hey this, no one actually believed in sola scriptura until Martin Luther came around. Until the Protestants came around. Which is kind of funny. I'm going to read some Quotes for you, Frank, I'm just going to ask. I'm just going to read some quotes, not going to tell you who they are, and just, you know, I want you to tell me. Do these align with what you and I believe about the ancient scripture?

[Frank Turek]

I haven't heard these before. No.

[Paul Cunningham]

No. I'm springing these on him. So this was the same thing I planned, but I didn't say about. All right, so here we go. This person said, bro, come on, bro.

[Frank Turek]

Hey, man, come on, bring it, bring it. Paul.

[Paul Cunningham]

The holy and inspired scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth. In other words, we don't need other people to do it. They're fully sufficient on their own.

[Carlos Horazo]

Interesting.

[Paul Cunningham]

You believe that that's accurate. So it's. That was from athanasius from the 4th century. There's another one for. Concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures. Do not believe me simply unless you receive the proof of what I say from the Divine Scriptures. Is that an accurate representation of Sola Scriptura. That would be Cyril of Jerusalem, also from the 4th century. We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenant. We necessarily fix our eyes upon that and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of the. Those writings. You agree with that? That's Gregory of Nyssa. Finally, one more thing. This is. I could go on and on. These are just a selection.

[Frank Turek]

Gregory of Nyssa, also 4th century.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly. Also 4th century. This next person. I must not press the authority of Nicaea against you, nor that if you have Armenum against me. Let us both stand on the authority of the Scriptures which are common to both. That's Augustine.

[Carlos Horazo]

I got an earlier one for you, please.

[Paul Cunningham]

No, no, those are just a selection of a few. So when people say, oh, this was not a thing until Martin Luther came out, like, no. From the earliest days of the church, they said, hey, as we are passing these things and these decisions, you have to make sure not simply that we said it, but that Scripture said it.

[Carlos Horazo]

Here's a better one a little earlier, too. Acts 17:11, verse 11. Now, the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and. And examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. So here's Paul with apostolic authority. And here's the Bereans basically saying, great, Paul. Let me. Let me verify that with Scripture.

[Frank Turek]

Also early from Paul, that all Scripture Is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. And of course, it equips every believer to do good works. That's two Timothy 3, 16, 17. We did not script this beforehand, ladies and gentlemen. We did not.

[Paul Cunningham]

No.

[Carlos Horazo]

Having a conversation right now.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, we're just having a conversation. Okay. Also, let me mention one of these. Paul instructs the Corinthians to quote, to not go beyond what is written, unquote. That's 1 Corinthians 4, 6. So obviously he's establishing the boundaries around the Scripture. Jesus identifies God's word as truth itself. When he says, sanctify them by your truth. Your word is truth. That's John 17:17. Jesus criticized the Pharisees for breaking God's commands. For the sake of your tradition, man. How many traditions, even in not just the Catholic Church, but even in Protestant

[Josh Howerton]

churches, do we have that are not scriptural?

[Frank Turek]

And we sometimes it nullifies the word of God, as Jesus says.

[Carlos Horazo]

We literally had a podcast on that, literally last episode, and Chris Berkeley taught on this on Pharisees basically adding rules and rules and rules to the law to.

[Paul Cunningham]

And trying to equate their rules with the law itself. Like, that's the issue is that it's no different. It's the idea of, hey, we have man made commentary, but we're going to elevate it to the same level of authority as the Bible says.

[Carlos Horazo]

Okay, Paul and Frank, but that's great and all, but. But the only reason you have a Bible is because there was a church that gave it to you. Therefore, you wouldn't have the scripture if the church hadn't gotten it there for you, compiled it and basically said, here's your Bible.

[Frank Turek]

What do you mean by the church? That's my first question for somebody who says that.

[Carlos Horazo]

Oh, yeah, the Roman Catholic Church.

[Frank Turek]

Okay. When did the Roman Catholic Church begin to assert its dominance over the other. When did the Bishop of Rome say, hey, I am head over all of you. When did that happen?

[Carlos Horazo]

Great question. Chat dude.

[Paul Cunningham]

Paul, you know, it was not for a very long time after this, 451. And even then it was debated because a hundred years after this, a council excommunicated the Bishop of Rome because he refused to comply with the ecumenical council. And only after did he submit to their authority and repent did they reinstitute him. So even then. Yeah, keep going, keep going.

[Frank Turek]

But no, I was going to say Rome did not assert its authority till 400 years after Jesus had left the earth over 400 years, years so to say that the Roman Catholic Church gave us the Scriptures is just not true. The Church meant all believers, and it still means all believers everywhere. And in the Apostles Creed, when it talks about the Catholic Church, that doesn't mean the Roman Catholic Church. It means the universal church. So the universal church, those are believers everywhere were what we meant by the Church. And the people that gave us the Scriptures were the apostles who wrote these down and then people copied those down because papyrus ultimately degrades. And those copies kept going on and on and on. So we have so many copies of the New Testament now that we can reconstruct the original with about 99.5% accuracy. And the 0.5%, we don't know what it's about, affects no doctrine at all. So the idea that the Roman Catholic Church gave us the Scriptures is just not true.

[Paul Cunningham]

Okay, I like how J.I. packer says it says the Church no more gave us the canon than Isaac Newton gave us gravity. In other words, he just discerned it. I'm going to actually, I'll read another quote. This is fun. I'll read another quote.

[Carlos Horazo]

Wait, say it one more time for people, because that's a great quote.

[Paul Cunningham]

The Church no more gave us the canon than Isaac Newton gave us gravity.

[Carlos Horazo]

It recognized it.

[Paul Cunningham]

It recognized something that was already there, in fact discovered. Exactly.

[Frank Turek]

They didn't determine.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly. And so.

[Frank Turek]

Yo bro. Yo bro.

[Paul Cunningham]

So I'm going to ask, do you agree with this quote? These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority, but because being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and we're committed to such as the Church. Do you agree with that? I would say yeah. That was written by the Council of Trent, which is a Catholic council. So when modern day Catholics try to use this against them, like your own Council of Trent, which was responding to Luther themselves, said they did not determine them or approved them by her authority, but simply they recognize what was already there.

[Carlos Horazo]

Okay, so we got sola scriptura. It doesn't mean there is only one authority. Councilors, leadership, tradition. They have degrees of authority. Sola scriptura means only the Bible has infallible authority and all other authorities have authority but are not infallible. Great doctrine of justification. That's the second difference.

[Frank Turek]

Let's go there in a minute. But I want to deal with the Pope issue first because it's not just that sola scripture is true, but let's deal with, if we can, the issue of did Jesus tell Peter that he is the first Pope essentially, and that there's a succession of apostolic authority that continues to the present day. So what say you?

[Paul Cunningham]

No, no.

[Frank Turek]

Okay, let's move on.

[Paul Cunningham]

Well, yes, we need to give some more details so people don't think we're just giving an opinion here. Keep going.

[Frank Turek]

First of all.

[Carlos Horazo]

Well, hey, Lake Point family baptism weekend here at Lake Point is coming up on May 2nd and 3rd. And if you're part of our church family here in any of our DFW physical locations and you have not yet taken that step of baptism, hey, we would love to invite you to do so. Text the word LIFE to 20411 to sign up today. And by the way, if you're not within driving distance of any of our physical locations, we would love to encourage you to to get plugged into a local Bible believing Jesus loving church and take that step of baptism with a local community as well. Also, you're welcome to join us for Church Online to celebrate those getting baptized here at Lake Point on May 2nd and 3rd as well. And now back to the podcast.

[Frank Turek]

The passage comes from, of course, Matthew chapter 16, where Jesus says, upon this rock I will build my church. What does the rock mean? There are three basic interpretations. The rock could mean Peter, the rock could mean Jesus, or the statement that Peter says, right. It could be those three things. And first of all, I think it would be unwise to build an entire doctrine on a passage that could be taken in three different ways. Number one. But we know it can't be Peter himself for several reasons. Let me give a couple. One is that when Paul or I should say when Peter is speaking of Jesus In Acts 4:11, he says that Jesus is the stone which was rejected by you, or the rock that was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief cornerstone. And Peter in his own book describes himself as a fellow elder. This is 1 Peter 5:1. And he also, in his own book, I think it's 1 Peter 2, he says that Jesus is the cornerstone. He's not the cornerstone. Peter's not the cornerstone. Jesus also gives the keys to other apostles in Matthew 18 when it's talking about church discipline. So the keys aren't just Peter's keys, they're the keys of all the apostles. What else?

[Paul Cunningham]

Well, I think like with that, literally what you just articulated is what Augustine himself said. And the reason I'm bringing these different names of people who are new to this conversation is I'm bringing in names of people that Catholic people would point to as authoritative in the history of the church. Okay, so Augustine's view was that Peter was simply representative of all the apostles, that in that moment, he was the representative of all that. To your point, that they all had the keys, that they all had authority. And you actually see this in the book of Acts, the first council that's ever called. So we've mentioned some other councils already that were called together. The first council that was called was in Jerusalem over debate between, okay, like, Gentiles, what parts of the Old Testament they have to keep. What's interesting was when you read that account, Peter speaks, but when he speaks, it doesn't settle the whole matter. In fact, if anything, it seems like it is James who is the one who's actually the leader of that church. So Peter speaks, but he's not the only voice. And it doesn't seem like he's a determined voice. It feels like more like it is actually a council where everybody gets to weigh in and James had the more authoritative one. If it was so clearly supposed to be Peter, you would think that he'd be like, hey, guys, here's my decision. Everybody get in line. But actually, you don't see that literally within a few few decades after Jesus's death, you don't see it playing out that way.

[Carlos Horazo]

Okay, so. And we'll get there, because I have a couple of objections about that as well in just here a second. But then, so we answered the authority question. Then there's the salvation question, which is again, how are we saved? Also known as the doctrine of justification. So, Frank or Paul, what is the main difference between a Protestant view and a Catholic view, which is honestly, like, this is a big deal.

[Paul Cunningham]

It's a big deal.

[Carlos Horazo]

How are we saved? That's a big deal. We address the authority. There's a difference there. What about this one?

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, that.

[Josh Howerton]

I think we're out of time, actually.

[Frank Turek]

Let me add one more thing. You know that. To that, to this issue of, of Peter being supreme, Paul actually corrects Peter in Galatians, chapter two. Yeah, I told Peter to his face that he was wrong for trying to get the Old Testament believers to obey or the New Testament believers to obey the Old Testament law. So how is the first pope being corrected? And papal infallibility, of course, didn't start until 1870. But all right, justification, as I been reading on justification, particularly with regard to Roman Catholicism, is they would agree that initial justification is completely by grace. In fact, in the Council of Trent. Now, the Council of Trent began in 1545. This is in response to Luther. So this is right after Luther, and they would say that your initial justification is completely by grace. It's not by works. However, they have a second or final justification, final salvation, which we might call as Protestant sanctification. But there's a critical problem here, in my view, anyway, and it comes from the Council of Trent, Canon 32. Can I just read the relevant part of this? And then you guys can launch into it and I'll abbreviate a little bit because it's a little bit wordy. It's translated, of course, into English. But let me try and be as specific as I can, as clear as I can. Here's what the Council of Trent, Canon 32 says. If anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ does not truly merit an increase of grace or eternal life, let him be anathema. All right. The key phrase here, it seems, is does not truly merit an increase of grace and then eternal life. That seems not only to be against Scripture, it's against logic, because by definition, grace has nothing to do with merit. It is a complete gift. So this final salvation, or second tier of salvation, it appears to me that according to the Council of Trent, they have a section in here that is not only scripturally against Scripture, it's against logic to say that your good works, even if they're motivated by grace, merit you something, because then it's not of grace, it's of works.

[Paul Cunningham]

Paul, I was saying at that point, it's a wage. Yes, if it merits it. You're paying me for what I deserve. And that's the idea of grace, is that it is undeserved. Now, Catholics, I don't know if you're about to do this for us. Carlos does a good job, by the way, Frank, of playing a little bit of devil's advocate sometimes with us and. And poking us. Yeah, well, that's.

[Frank Turek]

Whoa.

[Paul Cunningham]

I am not equating those three things.

[Carlos Horazo]

Clarified it. Go ahead.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. Some Catholics respond. Well, hey, James says, you know, that we are justified by our works kind of a thing. And this is. You know, Martin Luther hated that. He called James the Epistle of Straw. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Carlos Horazo]

What did he call him?

[Paul Cunningham]

They call it the Epistle of Straw. He did not. Well, because the Catholics would throw in his face all the time. Any thoughts on the James passage? I do, but I want to give you a chance.

[Frank Turek]

First, if you read the James passage, this is James chapter two. He says that I will show you my faith by my works. You can't see faith. You can only see what faith produces. So he's not saying. When he says that faith without works is dead. He's not saying that you're saved by works. He's saying that if people want to see if you're truly saved, your faith ought to lead you to good works.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly.

[Frank Turek]

In other words, the good works are the fruit of your salvation. They're not the root of your salvation.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly. That's something that's helpful to keep in mind, is that oftentimes people will use the same word, but in different ways. And so I would. Right there with you is that when James is talking about. He's not talking about justification in the sense of meriting your salvation, but the of.

[Josh Howerton]

Idea.

[Paul Cunningham]

Idea of showing the salvation you either do or don't have. And in fact, Paul actually would agree with James because Paul himself says all that matters is faith showing or expressing itself through love. So to your point, I can't see faith, but I can see what comes out of it. And Paul himself says that in his. In his. In his writings. So I think there's. There's no contradiction. Sometimes Catholics will want to pit these two things against each other. It's like, no, like we believe, like the reformers, Martin Luther and Calvin. Others said, man, you were justified by faith alone. But that faith will never be alone, that good works will accompany that. But it's the same way I don't wake up in the morning with a list of all the things I need to do to be a good husband and to get my wife to love me, but I should do those things simply because I love her. That's the difference is you're not doing these things in order to get her to love me. But I'm doing this simply because I already love her. And, man, I just want to express the love that I already have for her.

[Frank Turek]

And Paul said this. This is in Romans 11. He said it elsewhere, too, but he said, if by grace, then it cannot be based on works. If it were, grace would no longer be grace. And Paul, of course, famously says in Galatians 2, which is really, if you want to know the theme of Galatians, here's the theme of Galatians. It's Jesus plus nothing. Jesus plus nothing. That's what saves you. Not circumcision, not works, not baptism.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah, there you go.

[Frank Turek]

Not anything but Jesus. And then he says a little bit later in Galatians 2, he says, I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing. Christ died for nothing. Now, to be fair, Catholics believe grace is essential.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Frank Turek]

I'm not saying they don't think grace, they do think it's essential, but they seem to be adding works in the final salvation which has to do with perseverance. And they think they can lose their salvation through mortal sin. Now, as I read this, I'd love what you guys think about it because look, Christians can disagree. Can you lose your salvation or not? But In John chapter 5, Jesus says, He who believes has passed from death into life.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

You don't get eternal life when you die, you get it when you believe. And if it's eternal, you can't lose it by definition. So if you're truly sealed with the Holy Spirit, you truly have repented and accepted the free gift of salvation, you're saved. Then you don't get salvation when you die, you get it when you believe. And if it's eternal, you can't lose it.

[Paul Cunningham]

Amen. Amen.

[Carlos Horazo]

We would agree. No, we would agree.

[Paul Cunningham]

The same grace that saves us also sustains us and it transforms us. And so I think like to this is, you know, sometimes I'll talk to some Catholic and again, I'm like with you, I mean, many Catholics who are genuine brothers and sisters in Christ love Jesus so deeply. And I'll talk to them and a lot of times their concern is they'll see people who claim maybe they said a prayer when they are five or six or even now, but then they live however they want. I say, well, hey, there's a difference between profession of faith and possession of faith. Is that if, like man, if they are a genuine Christian. Yeah, we're all going to have ups and downs. We're going to have places where we fell. But over the long haul, that grace that saved them will sustain them to the end. They won't lose their salvation and it will transform them. And Paul said this. He said, by the grace of God, I am what I am. This is 1 Corinthians 15. And that grace was not without effect. He says, I worked harder than them, not for salvation, but from it. And he says, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with basically said, hey, the grace of God saved me and it transformed me.

[Carlos Horazo]

It's interesting. In the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe in Narnia, Edmund is the brother that is selfish, jealous, greedy and a traitor. And then Aslan dies in Edmund's place and is forgiven. And at the end of the story. The children are crowned, and Aslan calls Edmund King Edmund the Just. And that right there is a picture of imputed righteousness. He's basically telling us, hey, at justification, God is the one who declares you righteous, not because of your own doing, obviously, but because of what Jesus did. And a sinner is given a new status and a new identity because of what Christ did on the cross. And so, again, that's a picture for people listening right now. Hey, if you put your faith in Christ, it is in spite of your works, in spite of your past, in spite of your sin, that you are made righteous and you are justified.

[Paul Cunningham]

Okay.

[Frank Turek]

Hey, man. Hey, man. That's good.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's good.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's good. Hey, bro.

[Frank Turek]

Hey, bro.

[Paul Cunningham]

Hey, bro.

[Frank Turek]

Hey, bro. Hey, that's great. Let me just see if. Can. You guys can sense the theme here?

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

These are the benedictions of Paul. Every one of his 13 letters. Okay? Just a phrase. This is how each of the letters end. Romans, see if you can get a pattern here. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. First Corinthians. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. Second Corinthians. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Galatians. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, your spirit brothers. Amen. Ephesians. Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love. Philippians. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Colossians. Grace be with you. First Thessalonians. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Second Thessalonians. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. First Timothy. Grace be with you. Second Timothy. Grace be with you. Titus. Grace be with you all. Philemon. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. It's obvious Paul thinks we're saved by works and indulgences.

[Paul Cunningham]

I think I see a pattern. I think I see a pattern. There.

[Carlos Horazo]

Repeat multiple times.

[Paul Cunningham]

I think I heard something over and over.

[Frank Turek]

See if this makes sense. God created it, we broke it.

[Josh Howerton]

It.

[Frank Turek]

Jesus fixed it.

[Josh Howerton]

Amen.

[Frank Turek]

God create. God created it, we broke it, Jesus fixed it.

[Carlos Horazo]

Amen.

[Paul Cunningham]

Amen.

[Carlos Horazo]

Frank. So honestly, it seems to me like in this season, in the last maybe three, four, five years, with social media and everything, there has been an increase in voices that are Catholic. Just being more outspoken. Not just being outspoken as a Catholic, but also defending the Catholic faith and honestly making, like, pretty strong cases. It used to be back in the day that people would say, well, you know, if you at least where I come from in Latin America, people, there's a saying that says basically, like, if you're a Catholic and you're ignorant, eventually you'll become a Protestant. That's kind of like the saying. I don't know if that still holds true today, but today it seems like there's more voices that are honestly building a strong case for their Catholicism and why they believe what they believe. I've seen some apologists as well. Again, they're making a case for it. First Peter 3:15 says, but in your hearts, revere crisis. Lord, always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. I'm not so sure that, generally speaking, the Church is ready when somebody comes with a very smart case for Catholicism to defend why we believe what we believe. So here's what I want to do. I want to rapid fire some common objections that Protestants will hear from smart Catholics that have thought through their faith and have reasoned through it. And so I just want to start, we're going to rapid fire these. I'm going to shoot them your way. And you guys are walk to chime in on any of these. So, number one, so you, you talked about sola scriptura or Bible as being the highest authority, the only infallible authority. Here's what people would say. Well, Frank, the Bible itself never teaches sola scriptura or Bible as the highest authority. It talks about holding to both written and oral tradition. Isn't sola scriptura a tradition that's not actually in Scripture?

[Frank Turek]

Well, actually, it's not used by name. It doesn't say sola scriptura, just like it doesn't say Trinity, which isn't the issue. And Catholics would say if a Protestant were to say, well, purgatory. It doesn't say that in the Bible either. They would still try and come up with some theological justification for it. Okay, fair enough. It's not the word that's the issue. In fact, we already covered this earlier. We went through those passages, one of them, of course, being 2 Timothy 3 and 1 Corinthians 4 about don't go beyond what is written. So sola scriptura is taught. But the passage that you might be Referring to is 2 Thessalonians 2, 15, which says this, Paul's writing to his church there, and he says, so then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings or traditions. It could Be translated traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. Okay, so. Oh, these oral traditions. Well, I think this is a command to hold fast to apostolic teaching, whether spoken aloud or later preserved in the Scriptures. Because there was no sola scriptura in the first few decades of the Church because the scripture hadn't been completed yet.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly.

[Frank Turek]

It hadn't been written down yet. Not all of it anyway. So oral testimony and oral teachings remembered orally as creeds. And there's at least 41 creeds in the New Testament, the most famous being 1 Corinthians 15, 3:8, which talks about all the witnesses for the resurrection. Those creeds were memorized orally, later put into writing, and, and until the canon was complete, you couldn't say that sola scriptura had been put in place completely because you didn't have the complete Bible. Now, this passage says nothing about traditions that later generations may have come up with. Like the Roman Catholics are saying, we have all these traditions. Later, this passage is talking about the apostles, what they verbally said and then wrote down. Those are the traditions you're to hold to, not these later ones by non apostolic sources.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly. And you see, in the early church, in the first few hundred years, doctrinal debates come up. And oftentimes what different groups would do is they would say, well, our bishop says this. Well, our bishop says this. Our pastor says this. Well, our pastor says this. And eventually what they would have to get down to is, okay, but what did the apostles say? And the only way we know that is by what they wrote or commissioned others to write. So again, I'm just going to bring up again, Augustine who, When Catholics bring this up, they're like, it's like, read your own history. And it's like Augustine literally says, neither must we bring forward councils, nor we must bring forward bishops. So, you know, these are people who would pass on authoritative what they believe are the oral traditions of the Church. Nor must you bring forward bishops. Let us not hear this I say, or this you say, but thus says the Lord.

[Carlos Horazo]

Interesting.

[Paul Cunningham]

This was Augustine. So this would have been late 4th century, early 5th century. There are the books of the Lord whose authority we both accept. There, there, let us seek the Church. There, let us discuss our case. Augustine himself said that same thing.

[Carlos Horazo]

Here's another one. Yeah, well, okay, great. But here's what I don't like about Protestants. And I'm, I'm, I'm obviously speaking for other people. That's not me speaking, just to clarify, because you never know Any of these days. You're welcome. Jesus prayed that his followers may be one in John 17. And Protestantism is divided into thousands and thousands of separate groups with conflicting doctrines. Nobody agrees. Half. How is that unity? You know, unlike the Catholic Church, we all believe the same thing. What say you?

[Frank Turek]

First of all, Jesus is not talking about organizational unity. He's talking about spiritual and doctrinal unity. So he's not talking about an organization. The body of Christ are believers everywhere, not just people in a given church. They are anyone that accepts the essentials of Christianity. So he's not talking about that. And I understand that Catholics will say, well, you guys have a lot of different denominations. There's 30,000, first of all. That's a huge overestimate. Okay, 30,000 denominations. I've seen some say there's, oh, maybe 8,000, which sounds like a lot. Right. But these are just sort of local groups that have decided that they don't have any superstructure above them. But that doesn't mean the hereditary heretical. But there are heretical.

[Carlos Horazo]

Sure.

[Frank Turek]

Here's what I said. And I don't have enough faith to be an atheist many years ago. Why are there so many denominations? For the same reason there are a lot of non Christians. It's not because the truth is not perceived. It's because the truth is not received. In other words, we believe our own traditions and desires over the word of God. Jesus spoke forcefully against doing this. Right. Don't nullify the word of God by your tradition. Some Protestant churches have traditions that aren't biblical. Biblical Catholics have the same thing. So the issue isn't the denomination. I would also say that. And let me see if you agree with this. I've just been thinking about this. When you really look at Roman Catholicism, a Protestant has to look at the church and answer this question. Is the Roman Catholic Church a system of truth with some error?

[Paul Cunningham]

Error?

[Frank Turek]

Or is the Roman Catholic Church a system of error with some truth? And if you were to ask my mentor, Dr. Norman Geiser, who wrote this fabulous book, he would say it's a. It's a system of truth with some error because it agrees on the essentials. But there are these issues that we've been discussing that creates trouble.

[Paul Cunningham]

What's your view on that same thing? I mean, I literally, when we teach a theology class for our staff, when we're going over the Trinity, I tell them there is not a Protestant doctrine of the Trinity. Trinity, or even, I would say a Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity. There's just the doctrine of the Trinity, which, like, as you said earlier, we agree on. And there's so many other places like that that we agree on that a large time. We end up debating and discussing because we naturally don't talk about the things we all agree on. We talk about the things where there's differences. So that's natural. So, you know, I'm right there with you on that question, though. I just like, because it sounds so good. Yeah. We have one Pope. He keeps us unified and all believe in the same one holy Catholic Church.

[Frank Turek]

Okay, but that. That Holy Catholic Church doesn't mean Roman Catholic Church.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly.

[Frank Turek]

It means universal church.

[Paul Cunningham]

Exactly.

[Carlos Horazo]

So Catholic means universal.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes. So let me just give some what stats actually tell us. Okay. Official Roman Catholic teaching says artificial contraception is morally wrong. 90 plus percent of U.S. catholics say it's morally acceptable. Official Catholic teaching says marriage is only between a man and woman. 60 to 70% of Catholics support it. Official Roman Catholic teaching says abortion is evil. 50 to 60% of Roman Catholics support it being legal in all or most cases. Official Catholic teaching says the bread and wine and communion become the body and blood of Christ, also known as transubstantiation. Only 31% of US Catholics believe in that. 69% see it as purely symbolic. So I'm really glad we have a Pope who can keep us on the same page and I'll believe in the same thing. It's really effective.

[Frank Turek]

Let's deal with that, though, because they will say something like, well, you know, we have a infallible interpreter of the Scriptures. You guys are. You have a paper Pope. All these Bibles are just paper popes, and you can come up with all these different interpretations, or you're your own

[Carlos Horazo]

Pope because you choose what to believe from it.

[Frank Turek]

Okay, I'll give one answer to this, and then you guys jump in on this, because it's your podcast.

[Josh Howerton]

I'm a guest.

[Paul Cunningham]

All right.

[Frank Turek]

If a Pope says, I think this is what the Scriptures mean, we still have to interpret what he means by that. Right. Why would we take a Pope's interpretation? Maybe he has it right, maybe he has it wrong. When we can go to the apostles who we know are inspired and interpret what they say, why do we have a middleman who we disagree over whether or not he's inspired, when we can just interpret what the Scriptures say themselves? Because no matter what you're talking about, you have to interpret it exactly. So the Pope may have it right, he may have it wrong, but to say he is always helping us isn't necessarily the case. If he has it wrong. That's a problem. In fact, I wrote this down. See if this makes sense. I would rather have the essential truths presented by several denominations than be stuck with numerous errors presented by one organization. If we just had the Roman Catholic Church, we would be stuck with numerous errors presented by one organization. In fact, Martin Luther did not want to break away from the Catholic Church. He wanted to reform it. It's called the Reformation for a reason. And instead of being corrected rightfully by Scripture, the Roman Catholic Church dug in their heels and wrote the Council of Trent, which had many true things in it. But one of the false things it had in it was just what we mentioned earlier, that you can somehow merit grace through your works. So he wanted to reform it, not break away from it. Was the Roman Catholic Church that dug in their heels.

[Paul Cunningham]

They literally said, we can have unity, but only if you submit to us and do things exactly the way we want you to do. It's a forced unity. Now, I'm right there with you. I think kind of what you're hitting on is the idea of a lot of times Catholics will say, in order to discern something that's infallible, we also need something that is infallible. The problem is that literally just goes against the grain of what Scripture says. Did Moses have to be infallible to hear from God at the burning bush? Did the prophets have to be infallible to be able to discern what God was speaking? No. Well, then I think then this is what you were getting at is almost becomes an infinite regression. It's like, okay, well, if it takes an infallible Pope to discern the infallible word of God, well, then by logic, it should take someone infallible to discern what the Pope says, and then take someone infallible to discern what that says. And you go on and on and on. Eventually, you have to get to fallibility. So that's why this argument, to me is just not really strong, because it literally just would go on forever if we follow the logic of it.

[Josh Howerton]

Yo, bro, that's good, bro.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's really good, bro.

[Josh Howerton]

That's good.

[Carlos Horazo]

Okay, so here's another one. Historic, historically, yeah, but these Protestants, man, basically, like, show up, like, 500 years ago. Honestly, historically, you can trace the Catholic Church with bishops and sacraments back to the first centuries. Again, Protestant churches appear in the 1500s and later. Why should I follow a church that started 1500 years after Christ?

[Frank Turek]

Because the first of all, if I had. If the person was here, I'd Say, what do you mean by that? I want it.

[Carlos Horazo]

I'd want them to unpack it.

[Paul Cunningham]

Great question.

[Frank Turek]

Right. Rather than take the assumption as if it's true. But the Reformers wanted to bring the church back to first century biblical Christianity. As we just mentioned, they were not starting a brand new church 1500 years later. They were trying to reform the church back to what the Bible says rather than these traditions which nullify the word of God. And look, the first, first churches were not, as we mentioned earlier, they were not part of the Roman Catholic Church. Many of these were house churches and they had local bishops, much like the Protestant model is today. Right. That these people didn't have a superstructure above them. Paul did appoint certain leaders. Paul and Barnabas did. According to. It's like Acts 14:23. But notice, nowhere does the scripture say that Peter appointed him.

[Josh Howerton]

Anyone?

[Frank Turek]

Paul said, hey, this guy should be the leader here of this church. But Peter never said that. In fact, My Co author, Dr. Norman Geiser said in the book Roman Catholics and Evangelicals, Catholics will say there's this long chain of apostolic succession. Except one of the problems is there's a big break in that chain. And it's the first link. It's the first link from Peter to the next guy.

[Paul Cunningham]

Guy.

[Frank Turek]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Peter appointed anyone. So I mean, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we don't know. But to say that your entire position is based on silence is not a good position to be in. In fact, it's been said, and I think, see what you think about this. The entire argument for the Roman Catholic authority structure is circular. They say, okay, let's start with the Bible, okay, If the Bible doesn't say what we want it to say, we'll go to tradition. If tradition doesn't say what we want it to say, maybe we'll go to the Pope. Well, can you get scriptural support for an infallible Pope?

[Paul Cunningham]

No.

[Frank Turek]

So it's a circular process whereby you just keep moving the goalposts. It's the Scripture, it's the tradition, it's the Pope.

[Carlos Horazo]

Pope.

[Frank Turek]

And if, if, if Protestants bring up arguments, well, this scripture doesn't fit with your position. They'll go to Tradition, and if they say something about that, they'll go to the Pope. And they, it's, it's a circular argument. It doesn't, doesn't work.

[Carlos Horazo]

Okay, so speaking of the Pope, the Pope has been going viral recently on social media for multiple reasons. But there's. We don't have time to Watch the video right now, but there's a tweet, Trinity, can you pull up? So, basically, on a press conference on December 2025, a journalist asked about some cath Europe, viewing Islam as a threat to Western Christian identity. And the Pope's response was something along the lines of, hey, we should perhaps be a little less fearful and look for ways of promoting authentic dialogue and respect. That happened. And then in April. Here's another photo over there. Yep. In April, he visited the Great Mosque of Algiers. He removed his shoes and spent time in silent prayer facing Mecca. He praised Christian Muslim coexistence and said that that space was of God, a divine, sacred space. And then you can take it down and basically, like, if you dig into official Catholic theology, they will say, hey, Muslims and Christians worship the same God. So that's one thing that the Pope has said. Overall thoughts? Just open it up.

[Frank Turek]

This is unfortunate because as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, he should know better. A true theologian like Ratzinger was who became

[Josh Howerton]

Pope Benedict.

[Frank Turek]

Benedict, who was really the theologian behind John Paul ii. He knew better. He knew that Allah is not the same as Yahweh. And any Muslim scholar who knows the two would say the same thing, because Allah is not triune. Yahweh is. And in Islam, they don't think Jesus is God. They think Jesus is a prophet who will judge the world in the end, but it's not the Jesus of the Bible. These are completely. Well, not completely, but they are different beings. And Yahweh and Allah are not the same. And so, in fact, here's a helpful little way of looking at this, really. Islam is a Christian heresy. It's basically Arianism, the idea that Jesus is not truly God. And I don't have time to get into the details, but similar to Mormonism, they have a. And I remember Josh talking about that, by the way, that guy, Josh Howerton, is brilliant. Remember when he was talking about the fact that the book of Galatians where it says, if an angel appears to you and gives you another gospel, don't believe them? Both Mormonism and Islam started that way. One guy gets a supposed revelation, can't be verified, and we're supposed to believe in him, and it's another gospel. Now, here's what these groups do. There are four things they do. Think of the functions of math, addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. All of these groups, let's look at Islam. They add to the Bible. So you got the Quran, you have the Hadith. They subtract from Jesus So they say, jesus isn't God, he's just a prophet.

[Carlos Horazo]

Interesting.

[Frank Turek]

They multiply requirements for salvation.

[Josh Howerton]

Wow.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, right. You've got to do these other things in order to be saved. And then fourthly, they divide the loyalties of the believer. You have to go through us. Now, even Roman Catholicism to a certain extent, does some of this, although I don't think it's a Christian heresy. In fact, my mentor, Dr. Norman Geister, if you gave him one sentence to describe the problem with Roman Catholicism, he would say this. My main problem with Roman Catholicism is that they've institutionalized salvation, that you have to go through an organization to get saved in seven different sacraments, and we're going to be the one between you and God. So when you look at Islam, they've done those four things. They have added to the Bible, they've subtracted from Jesus, they've multiplied requirements for salvation, and they've divided the loyalty guilty of the believer.

[Carlos Horazo]

So let's make it a little more personal now. You know, obviously we have a lot of folks listening in. Maybe they come from Catholic backgrounds or maybe, you know, like, I know I have family members that are Catholic. If somebody's asking right now, hey, somebody that I love dearly, they're. They're Catholic, are they saved?

[Josh Howerton]

Well, that's a personal question that you need to ask the person.

[Frank Turek]

If you were to die right now

[Josh Howerton]

and God were to ask you, why should I let you into my kingdom, heaven, what would you say? If they start talking about, I'm a

[Frank Turek]

pretty good person, you know, I haven't

[Josh Howerton]

murdered anyone, they don't understand salvation. If they say, I'm trusting in what Christ did for me, then they're in.

[Frank Turek]

Now, according to George Barn of 2020, 70% of Roman Catholics believe that you

[Josh Howerton]

get into heaven by being a good person.

[Carlos Horazo]

Wow. 41. Hey, I wonder why.

[Frank Turek]

Huh?

[Carlos Horazo]

I wonder why.

[Frank Turek]

I wonder why. Yeah, yeah. Well, here's.

[Carlos Horazo]

I'm just, you know, it's like a response to some of the theology that we've been discussing, it seems to me, at least.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

But it's also a problem in evangelicalism because 41% of evangelicals say the same thing. Okay. But it's much more pronounced in the Catholic Church. Here's my biggest problem. And I said this to a Catholic apologist by the name of Jimmy Akin. Very nice guy. I had him on my program. We talked about justification a little bit.

[Josh Howerton]

And I said, jimmy, here's my main problem that I have.

[Frank Turek]

We can talk all day about these nuances of theology. But I've been to hundreds of masses

[Josh Howerton]

in my life, hundreds.

[Frank Turek]

I never heard in the homily, the

[Josh Howerton]

sermon in a Roman Catholic service.

[Frank Turek]

Never heard grace or the gospel until

[Josh Howerton]

the last Mass I went to. And that was my father's funeral.

[Carlos Horazo]

Wow.

[Josh Howerton]

When the priest said, I talked to Frank, my dad. I talked to Frank the other day just before he died. And he has accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. So he's in heaven right now.

[Frank Turek]

He didn't talk about the sacraments.

[Josh Howerton]

He didn't talk about works. He said he just accepted what Christ had done for him. And so I asked Jimmy, I said, jimmy, why do I never hear. Why have I never heard.

[Frank Turek]

Ever heard it? And he said, well, it's in the Mass. I said, that's not my question. I'm not asking you if it's in the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Mass. I'm asking you why do the priests never talk about it? In my experience anyway, maybe they do somewhere, but I've never heard it. Now, you were brought up in the Catholic Church. Did you hear it?

[Carlos Horazo]

No. I mean, it took a while. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I was brought up in. You know, my. My dad was Catholic, my mom was Baptist. Eventually, we moved towards a Pentecostal Church. And to be fair, I never actually. That I would say that it actually. It actually clicked to me. First time hearing the gospel. I think I was around, like, in high school where I finally understood the gospel. So, you know, it took a little bit more time. But, yes, it's. It's much, much more rare with, you know, I would say with my Catholic friends, they've have no idea what we're talking about. They've never even. And they've never heard of the idea of being born again.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, I don't know. That's the thing that troubles me the most. I mean, think about the great evangelists of the past three centuries. Are any of them Roman Catholics? No.

[Paul Cunningham]

No.

[Josh Howerton]

Who are they? Wesley.

[Paul Cunningham]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Howerton]

I mean, yeah.

[Paul Cunningham]

I mean, of course. You got Billy Graham. Yeah.

[Josh Howerton]

I mean, hello.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. You got Wesley way back. Yeah. Whitfield, you got Edwards. All those. Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

One of them. Charles Spurgeon.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yep. Yep.

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

They're not emphasizing, go, therefore make disciples of all nations. They're not emphasizing the fact that I didn't come to serve. I came to. I didn't come to be served. I came to serve. Give my life as a ransom for many. He's a ransom. He's our substitute.

[Paul Cunningham]

And is it kind of even a bright spot, though, of, like, some Catholic parishes and others, it seems like the ones that are growing fastest, that are actually reaching new people, they're the ones who are actually being more explicit about the Gospel. Gospel. So that even should tell you something there, that in the places right now that are growing, it's usually not that standard stuff that we're talking about. It's actually places that will actually proclaim Jesus a little bit more clearly.

[Frank Turek]

Have you seen anything that's helped you with Catholic friends in asking them questions

[Josh Howerton]

or interacting with them?

[Carlos Horazo]

Yeah, I mean, I think one. So I think in some ways you have to differentiate if somebody is a Catholic culturally or if they are actually they're committed to their faith. I think in my experience, the vast majority of my friends are more cultural Catholics. And so really, when. When they see somebody that takes the Bible seriously, that's. That's very different. Right. It's kind of like you. You actually believe what, you know, what. What the Bible actually says. That's a shock. And so vast majority of the time for me is really, hey, are you living out what you believe? Right. It's. Can people actually see Christ in you? Is this. Is this something more than just something that you do or that your parents do? Is this something that you're living out? And most of the times, that's what gets their attention. At some point, they'll see your life and they'll be like, you have something that I do not have, but I desperately need. And then that will draw them more towards wanting to learn more about what the Gospel actually is.

[Josh Howerton]

A question I ask a lot of unbelievers on college campuses is, if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? And a lot of times they say no, because it's not a head problem, it's a hard problem, and they don't want it to be true.

[Paul Cunningham]

They want to live however they want.

[Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

But the similar question could be asked of somebody, say, in a Roman Catholic,

[Josh Howerton]

Catholic Church, if you were to say

[Frank Turek]

to them, if a Protestant view of

[Josh Howerton]

Christianity was the true view, would you become a Protestant?

[Carlos Horazo]

That's a great question.

[Josh Howerton]

And see what they say.

[Paul Cunningham]

Wow.

[Frank Turek]

It might be. No, they're steeped in tradition and they don't want to. Now, I think a person can still be saved within the Catholic Church, as we mentioned earlier, just like they can be saved in a Baptist church.

[Carlos Horazo]

Exactly. Jesus saves.

[Frank Turek]

Yes.

[Josh Howerton]

Right.

[Paul Cunningham]

But like, even on that note, even thinking back to your original question, Carla, like, what should I say? I would honestly probably address them. You were really hitting on this earlier, Frank. Is the same way that I would address someone who came to Lake Point or any church in the south that is more of a cultural Christian. If I met someone at Lake Point and my sense was, hey, I don't know, this is a person who's a genuine believer in Jesus, but they're just coming here because parents made when they were growing up, or it's just a cultural thing to do. I wouldn't start with, so what do you believe about Protestant doctrine? I would probably start with, man, just tell me about your relationship, Relationship with Jesus. Like, what does Jesus mean to you? Hey, to your point, hey, man, if you died, do you have a sense of where you would go when you died? It's like I wouldn't even hit the distinctives. I would probably just circle. My thing is if I would use that for someone at Lake Point. Ernie. I've done a lot of ministry in the south, and that's my general experience in the south is there's a good portion of our churches who they actually don't know Jesus, but they're coming to church, I'll probably have the exact same conversation with them. Instead of making it about our differences first, let's just center in the person of Jesus and his work, and if they're saved by him or not, it's probably where I would go.

[Carlos Horazo]

The question is not, are you a Baptist or are you a Presbyterian, or are you a Catholic, or are you a Protestant? The question is, do you believe in Jesus for salvation?

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Carlos Horazo]

And my job is not necessarily to directly take you to accept Christ in your heart and be transformed. That's the Holy Spirit's job. My job is to help you take one more step towards Jesus. Whether that's a conversation, whether that's man, I cannot pray for you. How are you doing? Can I be. How can I be a friend to you in this year season? And so that's for people that, like you said, more cultural Christians. Now, I will say this. I have friends that are very smart Catholic people, and they take their faith very seriously. Yeah, I enjoy the conversations that we have where we challenge each other. I am challenged, and then I want to challenge them. And so, I mean, those are opportunities where you, in the context of a relationship, you can have these friendly conversations that, that challenge one another. And again, ultimately, I think your question is brilliant. Brilliant, Frank. I think, hey, if you. If you knew that the Protestant view of Christianity is true, would you. Would you convert? Would you. Would you trust it? That's a good question.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Josh Howerton]

It clears the decks of all Objections? Yeah, it's just if it's true, it's true. So many of us don't want the truth.

[Frank Turek]

Even.

[Josh Howerton]

Even as Protestants, sometimes we suppress the truth to go our own way.

[Carlos Horazo]

And if you take Matthew 28 seriously, where Jesus says, go ahead, make disciples, ultimately you just want people to know Christ. Christ, ultimately, I don't really care to convert you into a Lake point. Non denominational whatever, right? Live free, whatever. I want you to know Jesus.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Carlos Horazo]

I want you to experience the very presence of Christ.

[Frank Turek]

You know, it's interesting. We started with Charlie Kirk.

[Josh Howerton]

Maybe we could kind of end there

[Frank Turek]

and then we're gonna. We're gonna wrap this pot up. Hey, bro.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

You remember?

[Carlos Horazo]

This pig's been kicked enough.

[Frank Turek]

Maybe, maybe, just maybe, just a few

[Josh Howerton]

months before church, Charlie was murdered.

[Frank Turek]

He had a debate with Michael Knowles on Catholicism. Impromptu debate. They were together at an event. Maybe we can put it in Trinity. Can we put that in the show notes?

[Carlos Horazo]

Oh, yeah, there you go.

[Frank Turek]

Let's put that little exchange that Charlie had with Michael Knowles. With Michael Knowles. Because it was interesting at one point and Charlie was just learning about this stuff, but he still held his own very well against Michael Knowles. And at one point, Michael said something about getting people into the Roman Catholic Church. And, and Charlie said something like, no, no, no, no. You want to get them to Jesus? Why are you trying to get them into a church? You want to get them into a relationship with Jesus. If they choose the Roman Catholic Church as the place where they grow into a disciple, okay, fine. But you want to get them to

[Josh Howerton]

love Jesus, to repent of their sins and accept Jesus. Because Jesus is our substitute. He takes our punishment upon himself self.

[Frank Turek]

It's a substitutionary atonement. It's not about rites and rituals.

[Josh Howerton]

It's not about sacramentalism.

[Frank Turek]

It's not about going through seven hoops

[Josh Howerton]

that you got to go through in order to have your sins forgiven and to be with Jesus forever. It's about him as our substitute. And that's why I know that Charlie is safe now. I know that he trusted in Christ, he repented of his sins, and he trusted in Christ. And he, in a moment, went from this life to the next life, absent from the body, present with the Lord because of his decision to do that.

[Carlos Horazo]

That's right. Well, and the reason we have these conversations is because truth matters. And for many, eternity is at stake. Stake. Whenever you have these conversations, what you believe actually makes a difference in how you behave and where you'll spend the rest of eternity. The good news. Like you said, Frank, the gospel is not good advice. It is good news. Jesus did not say, it's kind of finished, it's semi finished. He said, it is finished. And so the gospel is that because of what Jesus did on the cross, you and I can have salvation. And we can have a guarantee of that salvation. This is not about winning arguments. This is about loving people. And we want to love them enough to point them to Christ and his word. We want to preach the truth and do so with grace. We're beggars pointing to where we found the bread. And that's Jesus.

[Josh Howerton]

Amen.

[Carlos Horazo]

Frank, would you pray for us?

[Josh Howerton]

Heavenly Father, we are blessed that you loved us enough to come into this universe, add humanity to your deity, live the perfect life in our place, and then allow us, the creatures that rebelled against you, to torture and kill you so you could take our P upon yourself, so we could then trust in you and not only be forgiven, but given your righteousness. This is the greatest news ever told, the greatest story ever told, and it happens to be true. So I pray, if there's anyone today, regardless of what denomination you're a part of or no denomination, that you would realize that the purpose of life is to know Jesus personally and then to make him known. And that you would then experience a rebirth to be born again. You gain eternal life when you believe. You don't gain it when you die. I pray that if you've never accepted that, that today you would, and that you would join a healthy, well balanced church to help you to become a disciple. Because Jesus, as we know Father, didn't say make believers, he said make disciples. I pray for Pastor Josh as he travels. Thank you for his boldness. Thank you. That he wants to, along with both Carlos and Paul, address every issue that believers are dealing with. Because Christianity is 24, 7, 365, 360 degrees. Every inch of life belongs to Jesus. We have to address all these issues. And Pastor Josh and Pastor Carlos and Pastor Paul do that so well. I pray you bless this podcast and bless all the listeners. Have them share this podcast with others so they could live free and not be bound by tradition. In Christ's name. Amen.

[Paul Cunningham]

Amen.

[Carlos Horazo]

Frank. Thank you.

[Paul Cunningham]

Thank you.

[Josh Howerton]

Thank you, brothers.

[Carlos Horazo]

Live free, brother.

[Frank Turek]

Amen. Let's live free. Yo, bro, It.