How To Discover Your Calling | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary: “How To Discover Your Calling”

Live Free with Josh Howerton (Lakepointe Church) – July 14, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on how to discover your God-given calling and purpose, especially if you feel ordinary or unlikely to be used by God. The hosts discuss the biblical precedent for God choosing “misfits,” explore practical steps to discern your calling, and tackle hot-button topics like culturally relevant ministry methods and recent worship music controversies.

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Episode Highlights & Key Insights

[00:00–07:00] – Opening Banter & “At the Movies” Ministry

• The hosts (Josh Howerton, Jana Howerton, Pamela Baltasar, and Carlos Arazo) open with playful banter about their church’s “At the Movies” sermon series, which uses popular films to illustrate biblical truths.
• Josh explains the heart behind "At the Movies": “We don’t preach movies; we use movies to illustrate biblical truths. …like modern-day parables” (07:16).
• Story of C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, and the idea that all great stories echo the gospel, called the “true myth” (12:19).

Notable Quote:

“If showing that the story underneath every story is the gospel worked for CS Lewis, I bet it's gonna work for a bunch of lost people now. We should do that in movies.” – Josh Howerton (15:24)

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[07:00–23:30] – Addressing Objections to Creative Ministry Methods

• Common critiques of “At the Movies” discussed: that it’s “diluting” the gospel, too secular, or entertainment-focused.
• Pamela distinguishes between making the gospel “relatable” and “diluting” it:

  “You can make the gospel understandable, relatable, attractive, and even fun without diluting it. …You're just using an illustration… then you're gonna hit them with the real gospel.” (15:47)

• Josh draws parallels with Jesus’ use of parables, many of which were well-known cultural stories remixed to highlight spiritual truth (17:19).
• The fear that fun or creative methods make church unholy is refuted:

  “What's really holy to God is the salvation of sinners. …Did you know there's more rejoicing in heaven when one sinner repents than when 99 righteous persons remain really holy and righteous?” – Josh (22:03)

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[23:30–36:03] – “God Uses Misfits”: Biblical Patterns & Encouragement

• Transition to the week’s sermon theme: God’s power is perfected in weakness; He chooses “misfits” and ordinary people (see Acts 4:13, where “idiotai” means “ordinary”).
• Josh reads 1 Corinthians 1:26–31 and explains that God chooses the lowly so “no one may boast before Him”:

  “When something amazing happens but somebody really ordinary was used to do it, people go, man, that must have been God, and He gets the glory.” (27:41)

• Multiple biblical examples: Jacob over Esau, Leah over Rachel, David (the overlooked son), Jesus’ humble roots.
• Weakness is framed as an advantage if dependence on God is the goal:

  “The whole point of that passage is that weakness is actually an advantage. If dependence is the goal, then any weakness you have actually drives you to God.” – Josh (28:37)

• Application: If you feel broken, dysfunctional, or weak, take heart—God wants to use you.

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[36:03–51:49] – How to Discover Your Calling

• The fundamental premise: Every believer is designed to fulfill a specific purpose and will never find true fulfillment until they do. Ephesians 2:10 referenced.
• Practical Framework (from Tim Keller): Find your place at the intersection of Affinity (what you’re passionate about), Ability (what you’re gifted at), and Opportunity (needs around you).
  • Affinity: “What provokes you, or gives you a righteous anger? Sometimes what you can’t stand is a clue to your calling.” – Josh (40:16)
  • Ability: Distinguish what you love versus what you’re truly gifted at. Involve honest feedback from others.
  • Opportunity: Ask, “Where is there a wide door of effective service in my church or community?” (referencing 1 Corinthians and Paul’s ministry strategy).
• Experimentation is encouraged: try different areas of service to see what fits (Jana: “Try a bunch of different places of service…you might find something you really love.” – 44:13).
• Be willing to meet needs, not just chase what’s glamorous:

  “Don’t just wait on working on your gifts or abilities. Be willing to fulfill needs right in front of you…you may be surprised.” – Pamela (44:36)

• Big Idea: “Dream big, but start small. Be faithful with a little so God can entrust you with much.” – Josh (51:06)
• Warning against seeking only public or prominent roles, influenced by “the American dream” mindset.

  “Your Father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you. …That kids ministry leader may end up changing eternity.” – Josh (52:03)

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[51:49–56:21] – Calling vs. Assignment & The Role of Serving

• Distinguish between lifelong calling and seasonal assignments.
• Serving is about meeting the needs of others and builds character (“be faithful where you are, and God might move you to something else in another season” – Carlos, 47:07).
• Acknowledge the unseen cost and formation required for leadership—most want the platform but not the process.
• The greatest impact often comes from small, unseen acts of service (e.g. genuine hospitality, group leaders visiting people in hospitals, etc.—Pamela, 54:47).

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[56:21–68:47] – Worship Culture, Communication, and Christian “Cancel Culture”

• Discussion on a viral video featuring worship leader Brandon Lake suggesting churches should use less “Christianese” so newcomers can access the message.
  • Josh pushes back on the negative internet reaction:

    “He literally said, ‘I want to get them there.’ We obviously don’t want to remove biblical language…but a shepherd leads the sheep from where they are to where they need to be.” (60:02, 66:29)

  • Jana and Pamela note the importance of distinguishing between worship for God and songs meant for outreach—both are valid but serve different purposes.
• Broader critique of Christian “cancel culture” that weaponizes out-of-context soundbites:

  “Who is it in the Bible that interprets God’s people in the worst possible light and accuses them? That’s the enemy. …Let’s have a little more Jesus, a little less Satan.” – Josh (61:36, 67:18)

  • Caution to interpret others charitably (1 Corinthians 13: “Love believes all things”) and build up the Body of Christ, not tear it down.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

1. On “At the Movies” Methodology:
   “Jesus’ primary way of teaching was parables…He was taking popular stories and then using them to illustrate biblical truths.” – Josh Howerton (17:19)

2. On Weakness and Calling:
   “If dependence is the goal, then any weaknesses you have are an advantage because they drive you to God.” – Josh (28:37)
   “If God can use them, he can use you.” – Carlos (29:22)

3. On Finding Your Place:
   “What is at the intersection of affinity, ability, and opportunity? There’s your calling.” – Josh (41:20)

4. On Serving in Humility:
   “Dream big, but start small. …Be faithful with a little so that He can entrust you with much.” – Josh (51:06)

5. On Christian Cancel Culture:
   “Let’s not be people who participate in the spirit of the accuser…Let’s be people of overt love who build up the Body of Christ.” – Josh (67:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–07:16 – “At the Movies” intro & rationale
• 12:19–15:24 – C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, and the gospel in stories
• 17:19–22:03 – Responding to church creative/evangelism objections
• 23:35–33:38 – God chooses ordinary “misfits”
• 36:28–44:36 – Practical steps to discovering your calling
• 51:06–52:03 – Be faithful in small things; significance is not about spotlight
• 56:23–67:18 – Brandon Lake worship clip & discussion of “Christianese,” communication, and cancel culture

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Further Resources & Calls to Action

• Explore or join a group: Text “GROUP” to 20411
• Find a place to serve: Text “SERVE” to 20411
• Show notes & resources: Available at Lakepointe Church’s website

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Takeaway

This episode offers both a theological and practical guide for listeners wrestling with their sense of calling. Listeners are encouraged:

• God can and will use anyone, regardless of their perceived strengths or weaknesses.
• Discover your purpose through prayer, service, and reflection on where your passions, abilities, and the needs around you intersect.
• Elevate others, serve in humility, and strive for a heart of overt love, choosing charity over criticism in disagreements within the Church.

By living this way, each believer can “live free” in Christ and make a difference that echoes in eternity.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Arazo, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton, Jana Howerton, and Pamela Baltasar. Hey, welcome, guys. Look at this set.

[A]

I know, man. At the movies.

[B]

This is super cool.

[A]

Can you tell them how you made fun of me for choosing this is the theme before you explain this.

[B]

I don't remember I made fun of bro. You totally did. I remember saying it. I just don't remember making fun of it.

[A]

You totally did. It was very tongue in cheek. So for listeners, you know, it's like, I can't remember when they did. It was like three or four months ago. The design team, they showed us, like, three different options for the at the Movies theme. And one of them was, like, real bright Disney Western theme.

[B]

Very cool, very appropriate.

[A]

And it was very good.

[B]

Yeah, Very awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He's not making fun of you.

[A]

No, of course. No, no, no, of course not. So then, you know, it was like they showed me three of them and immediately this is. If you can't. If you're, like, listening instead of watching, the theme is very, like, 80s VHS.

[D]

It looks so good.

[A]

It's so awesome.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

It's awesome. You jerk. No, I do. I do. So, like, immediately I went for, like, grunge, 80s vintage. I was like, that's the one. That's the one. And all the designers in the room are, like, in their 20s. And they were like, we knew you would pick that up everybod.

[D]

It looks so good. I didn't see the other one. But yeah, I love it.

[B]

Yeah. I just want to know. I was going to ask you guys, like, what is a vhs?

[A]

Stop. Stop calling our kids.

[D]

Ask us the same thing.

[B]

Do you actually know what VHS stand for?

[A]

It's video. Wait, what does it stand for?

[B]

It stands for a video home system. And I'm kidding. I did grow up with vhs.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I was going to ask how much younger you are.

[B]

Young enough. Yeah. I'm 33. Yeah, but I did grow up.

[A]

Me and Jana are geriatric millennials. What? What are you. I'm not asking you.

[C]

No, too. I'm about to turn 40 in November.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Like, 85. 83.

[A]

83.

[B]

Yeah. You had to rewind, you know, and you got.

[A]

And you got my dad one of the maddest I've ever seen my father. Love you, dad. He listens to all these. Like, the maddest I've ever seen my dad is we were late returning a movie to Blockbuster in town, and he forgot to rewind it. And if you remember, they used to charge you and do my dad, I'm hot. I mean, how much.

[D]

How much do they charge?

[A]

Do you remember? I have no idea. I just remember, like, dad.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

That's a lot, man.

[A]

Y. Is it 30 pesos? In dollars?

[C]

Like, 150.

[A]

Okay. $150.

[C]

No, I'm teasing.

[D]

I was thinking it was about a dollar.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Yeah, I just remember it was more than that because it's the only time my entire. My dad does not get mad, like, ever. My dad does not get mad, ever. But he's a frugal, wise man. And I remember, like, I remember him saying, you lost a customer. Oh, my goodness. Like, oh, man.

[C]

They charge you more than the rental. It was more expensive.

[B]

This was a blockbuster.

[A]

I think it was. It was either Blockbuster or Hollywood Video.

[B]

It's probably Blockbuster.

[C]

We had.

[B]

And I was going to say, your dad's probably like, you guys. Your business is not going to succeed in the future. He was right.

[A]

He was right. He was right.

[B]

He was right. That's funny.

[A]

Let's talk about at the Movies.

[B]

Hey, man, at the movies. Week one, man.

[A]

Bro, 30 thou. Cramming 30,000 people into our building is amazing. Yeah, it's absolutely amazing.

[B]

And by the way, before we jump in, man, we're going to have a good episode today. We're going to be talking at the movies. Acts 4, 13 survey, maybe Brandon Lake, even. We're talking about some things out there. Thank you for liking subscribing about fast cars. Fast cars.

[A]

Yeah, I want to talk about fast.

[B]

Cars for the people that are. By the way, I love when people share about how the show notes are actually extremely helpful.

[A]

Dang. I had a picture. I forgot to send it to you. I may send it. I'm going to send it to you guys right now.

[B]

Genuinely, people are like, we love the show notes. Thank you for the show notes.

[A]

I'm going to send this right now. If I can find it. Ah, dang it. I didn't screenshot it. Nevermind. I can't. Okay, but somebody like, people have started tagging me in pictures of their disciple group. Life groups that are that listen, like we said, they listen to sermon, then they listen to the Deeper Dive podcast. Then they're meeting in, like, coffee shops and diners using the show notes as their discussion guides for discipleship.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so people started tagging me in these on IG and I was gonna show one of those. So like, yeah, let's keep going. Yeah, Yeah, I love that.

[B]

Yeah. And so to download the show notes. And so this is these notes, Bible verses. All the. The nuggets of wisdom from Jenna and Pamela in this episode will be included in the show notes. So you have to get it. To do that, go to Lakepoint Church shownotes. It's gonna be great.

[A]

If. So Pamela's nickname is the Hispanic Hammer. We need. We need a nickname for Jam.

[D]

There you go.

[A]

Do we have one? What rhymes with. Is there a J?

[D]

Well, you know, like my nickname in my Spanish class in high school is always Pelidoroja.

[C]

He was.

[A]

You got to translate.

[C]

He's redheaded.

[A]

Redheaded, yes. That's nice.

[C]

I can say that.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Wasn't that your email address when we first met?

[D]

No, no, I. I used.

[A]

Was it your password?

[D]

It was my login.

[B]

It's still her password.

[A]

Not.

[B]

We don't want to share that.

[C]

You have to change that.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

It's probably still like our debit password or something. I don't know. I don't.

[B]

Hey, man, at the movies was great. First week. It was great. I have a. I hear some people. First of all, if somebody's new. Yeah. If somebody's new and they're like, wait, at the movies. I thought this was at the church. Like, what's going on? I hear some people have some thoughts about at the movies. There's actually some objections. I'd love to throw some your way. And Jen, I would love to answer some of these objections as well.

[A]

Every year. Every year around this time. Because, you know, Lake Point's not the only church that does this. So every year around this time. It will certainly happen this year. I guarantee. It is, you know, becomes like a topic of Internet discussion. Actually. People that I love and respect, they think I'm an idiot for doing this, is not a fan of this kind of thing.

[B]

There you Go.

[A]

And so I would love to just, I would like to make a defense.

[B]

Well, let me, let me channel in my inner troll right now for like one minute.

[D]

Are these your objections?

[B]

No, no, no, they're not. For people wondering, these are not.

[A]

Before you do this, can I give, can I give my explanation for why we do it?

[B]

What is that the most?

[A]

And I think it is not only. I think it is not only strategically wise and logically defensible. I think it's biblical. So let me tell you what, for a long time I used to think this kind of stuff was stupid. If you're unfamiliar with that, the movies, what it is, here's our little tagline, is that is when we use movies to illustrate biblical truths. So let me just get ahead of something. We don't preach movies, we use movies to illustrate biblical truths. In the same way that just like when any of us are writing a Bible study or like a sermon, we have illustrations in the sermon. You'll tell a story, you'll share a joke, you have an object lesson. Basically we do at the movies, we're using modern day stories, movies to illustrate biblical truth. So the sermon illustrations. So here, let me tell you the story of the moment when I was like, we're doing this. Okay, so for a listen, I'm a kind of a bit. I'm a Lord of the Rings nerd. I've read Lord of the rings 13 times now. I wake up in the middle of the night between 2 and 4am and I need something to read myself back to sleep and it's my little blanket. So I've read it like 13 times now. Yeah. So here, this true story. Have, have. Who has heard the story of how C.S. lewis became a Christian? Have you heard this? You're okay. All right, so here I'll give the. Here's a quick snapshot. CS Lewis was a hardcore committed atheist his entire growing up young adult into adulthood in 1931. C.S. lewis and J.R. tolkien and a guy named Hugo Dyson, they were all on staff at Oxford. So they're Ivy League professors. All three of them, I think were teaching some form of literature, English, you know, that kind of thing. So here's what happened. So JR Tolkien was a committed, spirit filled, love Jesus, Christian. CS Lewis was his one more. So like he develops this relationship with C.S. lewis. C.S. lewis is his one more hardened atheist. So I'm going to read this to you. So here's what happens on September 28th. Wait, I'm skipping ahead. I don't want to do that. Yet. Okay, so what? Nope, that's. That's in a second. Yeah. So. So these three guys are taking a walk. C.S. lewis, J.R. tolkien and Hugo Dyson actually go and throw that picture up there. The picture of the little. That's it. This picture right here. All right, so this is literally the road where what I'm getting ready to describe happened. All right, this is somewhere. Somewhere in England. This is where this happened. So J.R. tolkien is. CS Lewis is talking to Jared Tolkien and Hugo Dyson about. He was fascinated with. They called him fairy stories. We call them fairy tales. They call them fairy stories. And this was what he was a professor of medieval literature. And he starts noticing, like, man, in all these different cultures and all these different times, all over the world, they all have the same fairy tales. And they all came up independent of each other. You know, it's like the brave prince slays the dragon and gets the girl. Or the, you know, the. The king from a far off country comes and kisses Sleeping Beauty and awakens her from the sleep of death. And they're just like, man, all these fairy tales are the same. So they're on this walk on that road right there. And J.R. tolkien, a Christian, begins explaining to C.S. lewis that the reason all the stories are the same is because there's a story that's underneath every story, and that the Bible says that God has, quote, put eternity into the hearts of man, and that the reason those stories resonate with the human heart is because those are the stories that are faint echoes of the true story underneath all the stories. And he explained to CS Lewis that that's the gospel, and this is the language he used. He told CS Lewis that the gospel is the quote, it's the true myth. And when he said myth, he didn't mean something that didn't happen. When he said myth, he means, like, something that has explanatory power for the world. And so he just starts explaining this. That is the true myth, the story underneath all the stories. Now stop and think about this for a second. He starts explaining things like, hey, man, why do you think the stories that capture our hearts are about the brave prince that kills the true tra. The dragon against the girl? Like, literally, the book of Revelation is the story of Jesus, the prince of the universe, the son of the sovereign Lord of the Most High, coming to slay the dragon of sin, death and Satan, and whisking away his bride, the church. Kill the dragon, get the girl. Why do you think it's stories about, you know, a prince from a far off country that comes in and awakens the sleeping beauty with a kiss of, you know, whatever. And he's like dude, like the Bible, he didn't say dude. TR Tolkien probably didn't say dude, but he's like him. And like the Bible, he said, we lad thinks that's a funny British thing.

[D]

I wouldn't incorporate it in my life.

[A]

Saying, well, it's because you're, it's because you're a wee person. But he's, he's explaining and he explains like, hey man, like that's the story that Jesus is the, the prince, the king from a far off country of heaven that came and he awakened us. The Bible says that we were under the sleep of death and sin and he awakened us from those things. It's really interesting if you think the movies that resonate the most deeply in the human heart, like I grew up on Braveheart. You know all the stories, if somebody dies, they lay down their life in a fight to set captives free from slavery and tyranny. That's the gospel. Think about even Lord of the Rings when Jared Tolkien writes Lord of the Rings. So think, think about this from a Christian perspective. Here's the story of Lord of the Rings. All of Middle Earth lies under the power of an evil one. It's now fallen from its original glory because of his influence. Then I'm going to show my nerd here for a second then. A humble, unexpected underdog hero from a place that nobody would expect a hobbit from the Shire, you know, is, is, is chosen. He takes the burden of the whole world onto himself. You even have this theme of like Gandalf in the story, total spoiler alert. Dies and is resurrected as Gandalf the White. He even has that spot. Here's again, super nerd where it's like at the battle of Helm's Deep. It's like the defining moment of book two where he just tells Aragorn, who by the way, is the return of the king. Aragorn is the long lost king that comes back to set the kingdom back in order. And he tells him in the story. He's like, hey man, just when you think the battle is going to be lost at the dawn of the fifth day, look to the east and you'll see me crest the hill in white. And there it is, dude, the dead and resurrected one. Because it's so awesome, man. And then you even have the whole thing. Aragorn is the true king that returns. He defeats the enemy against all odds and he restores the kingdom to its original glory. Even movies like the Matrix, I literally do this forever. Like, all the movies that capture people and the stories, if you look close enough, they all have these echoes of the gospel in them. So JRR Tolkien explains this to his one more CS Lewis, and then I'm gonna read to you. This is a letter that C.S. lewis wrote later in his life about his conversion to Christianity. This is what he said just nine days after. I'm going to read this whole thing. This is somebody writing about it. Just nine days after Lewis's conversation with Tolkien on Christ being the true myth, Lewis took the final step in embracing the divinity of Christ. While riding in his older brother's motorcycle sidecar on the way to newly opened Whipsnood Park Zoo in Bedfordshire. He recounts, and this is what Lewis said. I know very well when, but not how the final step was taken. I was driven to whips nod one sunny morning when we set out. I did not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. And when we reached the zoo, I did. Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought. And he just took that final step and spent the rest of his life as a very bold Christian.

[B]

So, anyway, fascinating.

[A]

Honestly, the penny dropped for me when it's like, okay, if showing that the story underneath every story is the gospel worked for CS Lewis, I bet it's gonna work for a bunch of lost people now. We should do that in movies.

[B]

Okay, but.

[A]

Okay, you guys gotta chime in.

[B]

Oh, yeah, please.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Well, I. I think the fear.

[B]

No, no, go ahead.

[C]

I think the fear of some people is that some churches, or sometimes when we try to make the gospel, like, attractive and understandable and relatable, we tend. Or we can be tempted to dilute it. But I think you can do both. You can make the gospel, like, understandable, like relatable, attractive, and even fun without diluting it. I mean, you're not gonna remove the confrontational parts or, like, the uncomfortable parts. Like, you're just using an illustration or you're using just, like, the environment to bring people in, and then you're gonna hit them with the real gospel. So I. That's the balance. Because sometimes churches and some churches do that, like, in order to attract new people, they dilute it. They make it like they read light. We are not doing that. I don't know about other churches, but we are not doing that. So I think that's a tension that some people can feel sometimes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Pamela. But what about. But why do you. Why do you guys need to use Secular movies to bring people into a. A space to talk about spiritual, sacred, holy things.

[A]

All right, well, let me just say.

[B]

Listen, Josh, there's no communion between the darkness and the light. It's just the two don't go together.

[A]

Yeah, I totally agree. Good. So let me say a few things. One, we're not pre. Again, I just want to be clear on this. We're not preaching movies. We're using movies to illustrate biblical truths. We're preaching the Bible. And then you. I love your little face. This is your face.

[B]

I'm ready to, like, keep going. Keep going.

[A]

We're using movies to illustrate. Using stories to illustrate biblical truth. So here's what I would say is like, hey, man, quit trying to be holier than Jesus. I think that's like, literally, Jesus primary way of teaching was parables. And a lot of people don't know this. There are reputable historians from the first century that say some of Jesus parables were actually stories that were already popular before Jesus came. And then Jesus would remix the ending, or he would just do it a little different, or he would show how that story pointed to a spiritual truth. That's literally what we're doing. He was taking popular stories and then using them to illustrate biblical truths.

[B]

Yeah. So go ahead, Jenna.

[D]

Well, and I, like, I think about. I don't know, whenever I'm reading the parables or somebody's telling you a story, it's kind of like, it gives me an opportunity to. I feel, like, invited into that. It gives me a chance to reflect on what is being said and, like, just thinking. As you read the parables, then you're thinking, okay, how do I apply this to my life? What is the spiritual truth that. That God is teaching me here? And so I think it just gives an opportunity to. Just. To search your heart and to. And for God to speak to you and to open. Open you up to what he's saying.

[C]

Yeah, and we're also not using movies with, like, you know, like, horror movies. Like, we're not using, like, our movies.

[B]

We're not playing the Exorcist in this.

[C]

We're not.

[B]

Okay, man, keep going. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I see that. But at the same time, if whatever you attract people with now, you have to keep them with. So, like, if you have movies, people are like, oh, let's go watch movies.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

And then it's like, okay, it's just entertainment. And people are basically just, you know, looking for those things, and that's not what church is supposed to be.

[C]

I don't agree. I mean, like, I think Jesus attracted them with the story or attracting them, like, by feeding them, like, fish and bread. But then they stay because of the gospel, because their lives were changed. So I don't think we have to keep giving them the same in order to keep them in the church. You can attract it with an event, with a creative stuff, but then when their lives are changed, they're gonna stay because of Jesus, because of the gospel, because of what they found here. So I disagree with that.

[A]

So this objection. What you win them with is what you win them to. So this is. I'm gonna church nerd for a second here. That comes from, like, my little reformed church nerd team that I grew up in in ministry. That's where that ph from. What you win him with is what you win them to. I just completely disagree with it, and I actually don't think that the people who say it, they don't actually agree with it. I actually think it's an example. It's called the Eaton Rosen phenomenon. It's a rhetorical thing that people tend to believe something when it rhymes just because it rhymes. It's called the Eton Rosen phenomenon. What you win them with. What you win them too. And you're like, oh, well, that sounds good, because it rhymes.

[B]

Profound.

[A]

Yeah. It was like, one. I want to point out what Pamela just said. Huge crowds follow Jesus because he told parables, healed the sick, fed the hungry people. Didn't run up to Jesus and be like, jesus, quit healing people. What you went them with is what you went up to.

[B]

Things want to be healed now.

[A]

Yeah, now they're not listening to your actual. Just Bible teaching because, you know, that kind of thing. And then the other thing I would say to people is say that is, man, if you actually believe that, you need to remove all the AC units and microphones from your church, because, man, what you went them with is what you went up to. Carlos, I just don't think that's true.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. And some people might say, man, but it's just. It just feels weird. It's just. That's not what church is supposed to be. And I've been to church for. I'm a Christian for my whole life, and I just don't, like, I feel a little uncomfortable with it. Would you say?

[C]

I think that church can be fun. I mean, like, my kids love coming to church. They love. At the movies. They know these. Not. I mean, the characters or what, you know, the decorations are not the most important thing, but they love it because you Know, it's fun for them. So why do we have to make churches so, like, serious and boring and just to keep it holy. Like, you can have. Have fun and be holy at the same time. Like, Jesus had fun. He was. Even a little bit of sarcasm. Like, good holy sarcasm.

[B]

Jesus was funny.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Theologians will say that, you know, we don't talk about this often, but theologians will say, like, Jesus actually was way funnier than people give him credit for.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So humor.

[C]

I don't see anything wrong. Like, we're not, like. How do you say, cursing the church because we put a funny or something. Decorations or like, characters. Like, we're not.

[A]

Not.

[C]

We're not making it unholy. We're just making it fun. And I don't think. I don't see anything wrong with that. I mean, as long as we keep it.

[A]

So I think, you know, what you're kind of getting at is, man, it kind of feels like there's a lack of reverence for the holiness, that kind of thing. What? Yeah. I just want to point out what's really holy to God is the salvation of sinners. That's what's really holy. God is the salvation of sinners. There's. It's literally that exact same attitude that Jesus rebuked when he was going, hey, man, did you know there's more rejoicing in heaven when one sinner repents than when 99 persons just remain really holy and righteous? Did you know that he's rebuking that same kind of Pharisee spirit? Well, we gotta keep it. The other thing I would say is, some people say, oh, it's really entertainment driven, really worldly. Well, whenever somebody says that, I'm always like, what do you mean, so are you? You don't want it to be entertaining. Okay. What's the opposite of entertaining? Boring. So is that what you want from me? Like, just to make it as boring as we possibly can? And the other thing I would say is, well, hey, somebody would. Well, that's not how church is supposed to be. First of all, you know, this is. We do this, like, for four weeks a year. And, yeah, it's like, we don't do it all year. Usually I'm preaching exegetically, verse by verse through books of the Bible. But I would say, man, here's how church is supposed to be. It's supposed to be where you go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that he's commanded so, man, it's that little phrase of, hey man, let's do anything short of sin to reach people for Christ. In order to reach some people that nobody's reaching, you gotta do some things not everybody else is doing. So we're good with it. We're good.

[B]

That's amazing. And by the grace of God. I can't remember the last, last year, what number, how many people we saw so many people.

[A]

Over 2,000 people.

[B]

Over 2,000.

[A]

And indicated a first time decision.

[B]

That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, praise God for that. We love that. Well, man, let's go in. Let's go at the movies. Week one, man. There's a theme in this week's movie about how God uses misfits. And this is something that you see in scripture all throughout. And so it's interesting that the verse that was mentioned in the sermon is Acts, chapter 4, verse 13, where it says people recognize that Peter and John quote, had been with Jesus. It's interesting. The, the word to describe Peter and John in the Greek is idiotai, which is where we get the, the word idiot. It just, it doesn't mean idiot. It just means ordinary or a lay person. And so this is basically, you know, God uses ordinary people. He's not looking for extraordinary people or like super talented or gifted man. Let's go there. Why would God do that? Why is that a theme that we see in Scripture?

[A]

Me?

[C]

Well, I think because that way he can be more glorified. Like, if I was like a superstar by myself, I wouldn't need God, I wouldn't need Jesus to work through me because I got it all together. So I think the more you realize of your own own, you know, brokenness and lack of, you know, abilities on your own or whatever, like, the more God can use you and be glorified through you. Right?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's like. So I'm gonna read this. Let me read a verse and then tell a quick story. So this is actually, Let me start here. So if you're going, why. Okay, so there's an old. He's. He's with the Lord now, like one of the great preachers of the generation before us, Adrian Rogers from Memphis, Tennessee. I got to spend a day with Dr. Rogers before he passed. It was amazing. This is a savage sermon illustration. I can't. This is one of those things, like, I've heard he did this. If he really did this, that was savage. So he's preaching on this concept, on the verse that answers your question. I'm gonna read here in a second. And according to legend, in his sermon, he asked everyone in the room, he was like, man, I wanna. I wanna do something. I wanna honor some people. And he was like, man, if. If you were the valedictorian or the salutatorian of your class, would you please stand up? Bunch of people stand. He's like, man, you stay standing it. Now, if you were voted most likely to anything, would you go ahead and stand right now? And you know, people are proudly standing and you know, it's like a class presidents, would y' all stand with these other people? And they all stand. If you were the captain of your team, you know, growing up, would you. And you know, a good portion of the room is standing. And they're all standing. They're very proud crowd. And then supposedly right there with everybody standing, he said, now to everybody standing up, we're all very impressed with your accomplishment. And then he said, but you need to know this. The people that God is most likely to use are the people sitting down next to you. And then he read this verse from first Corinthians that answers your question. Why does God consistently use the misfit, the outsider? What this is, I'm going to read. It's four verses. Track with me. Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards. Not many were influential. Not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. And God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things, the things that are not to nullify the things that are. Now, here's the answer to your question, verse 29, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of God that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us the wisdom of God that is our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, let the one who boasts boast in the Lord. Now, here's what he's saying. The whole theme of the Bible is the glory of God. That's why does anything happen for the glory of God when something amazing happens and somebody amazing did it. People give the amazing person the glory when something amazing happens, but somebody really ordinary was used to do it. People go, man, that must have been God, and he gets the glory. So that's why all throughout the Bible, the whole Bible is the story of God choosing the last person you'd ever expect. And they do extraordinary things through an ordinary person. By the power of his extraordinary spirit.

[D]

That's why I also think it's because, like, you know, whenever you feel like you are that misfit and you are in that place, you're gonna rely upon the Lord and not on yourself. And so supernatural things happen. Whenever you are like God, I can't do this. This is too big for me. It has to be you. So you're not making about you. You're not making it about your gifting. You're making about what God can do.

[A]

That's exactly right. That's the second Corinthians passage where Paul's. It's his thorn in the flesh passions passage. And it's specifically he said, my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. That's the whole thing. The whole point of that passage is that weakness is actually an advantage. If dependence is the goal, the whole life, the whole Christian life is just dependence on God. And actually, when that's the goal, then any weaknesses you have, they're like, well, man, I'm have to lean into the Lord here. Well, that all of a sudden becomes an advantage because it drives you. Like the little Charles Spurgeon quote. I have learned to kiss the wave that cast me against the rock of ages. There it is.

[B]

This is how you know. Also, the Bible is not something made up by men. Like, if you think about history, all throughout history, most cultures have valued strength, honor, people that have, you know, been gifted, that have accomplished many things. And then you look at God, the God of the Bible, he does the opposite. He looks at the weak, the broken. And then when you see that, if you're. Somebody's listening right now, what's the point? The point is this is good news, that God looks at people that are broken and weak and he wants to fill them with his presence and invite them into relationship and use them for purposes that are extraordinary. That's great news. This is what you see all throughout Scripture. These are bro. All the quote unquote, heroes of the faith are actually very much broken, fearful, insecure, sinful, dysfunctional. And if God can use them, he can use you. That's exactly. He's inviting you.

[A]

So let me. I don't think people realize how heavy that theme is. Can I give some examples real quick?

[B]

Please?

[A]

I just jotted these down on the way in. All right, so this is like a biblical theological theme. I think a lot of people miss So a couple examples. So in the Old Testament, in ancient Hebrew culture, it's called. Sociologists call it primogeniture what that means is that ancient Hebrew paternalistic cultures, the firstborn son was always the one that was chosen, and that the family inheritance, the lion's share of it, went to that. He kind of took on the family. So think about, who does God choose? You get Jacob and Esau, and he breaks the primogeniture pattern. And he goes, man, Jacob, the younger son I loved, but Esau, the older son, I hated. That's a Bible verse that a lot of people don't love. He chooses the younger son, he breaks it. I'll give you another one. Think about beauty. You know, we're cultures that can be obsessed with beauty. You get the whole Leah and Rachel thing, and you've got. It specifically talks about how beautiful Rachel is and, you know, works seven years just because she's so beautiful and he wants to be married to her. And then.

[B]

And it actually says Leah, not so much when talking about both of them.

[C]

She had pretty eyes.

[D]

She had weak eyes.

[B]

She had weak eyes.

[A]

She had weak eyes.

[B]

Very delicately put.

[A]

Yeah, That's a Hebrew way of saying she had a great personality. That's what. That's what that is, is. And. But who is it that God chooses to bring the lion of the Messiah through? He. He chooses Leah, the one that wasn't the. The beauty queen. Very interesting. If you go back, like, we. We miss this because we're a monotheistic world and culture, but in a polytheistic world where every nation had their own gods and goddesses, all the other nations gods and goddesses, they identified with. With the powerful. It was like, they're the God of kings and military conquest, that kind of thing. When you read the scriptures, God's like, oh, here. Here's who I'm the God of the lowly, the widow, the orphan. That. That's. That's who I'm. You even go, man, I could. Gosh, I could just keep going forever and ever. David, he's the seventh son. Dad doesn't even bring him in from the pasture. And then this is very interesting when you read the psalms David wrote, the primary way David thinks about himself, he says it over and over. Hear, O Lord, and answer me, for I am poor and needy. Even after he became the most powerful wealthy person in the nation, how he thought of himself was, you know, I'm poor and needy. And that's why God continued to use him, because he was just dependent. And then the last one I'll do is just Jesus. I mean, could anything good come from Nazareth? You know, it's backwoods, middle of nowhere kind of thing. And then, honestly, a lot of people know this. We have a Bible verse that tells us Jesus was almost certainly ugly. There's a verse in Isaiah, no form of majesty that should attract us to him. There was nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. So it's. There's this theme. God chooses the outsider, the misfit. So that's.

[C]

What do we do if we're beautiful?

[A]

I love it. I don't know. Why don't you guys tell us? No.

[C]

And I love it that I think even in your. I mean, you learn to appreciate your weakness or your thorn, whatever it is. I mean, you still wish there was another way, but, like, you learn to appreciate it because it makes you dependent on him. Like, you learn to appreciate it and love it and be grateful for it because, you know, and you have the absolute certainty that is not because of you, but it's just the grace of God that, you know, took you to those places or to do whatever it is that you do. Like, I think that's the beauty of it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, hey, guys, One of the reasons we are intentional in creating this kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the word of God and honestly just grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. And so for this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. Happen. And so if you have not yet joined the group, whether in person or online, I want to challenge you to test drive one. And so to do that, just text the word group to 20411 or go to Lakepoint Church groups. Because, listen, you're not one podcast away, one habit away, one decision away, one book away, one sermon away. Listen, you are one relationship away to experience freedom in Christ, in community. And now let's get back to the podcast. Well, it's. It's interesting because in this verse here, talking about John and Peter, they were quote idiot in Greek also as ordinary people. The Bible says that people recognize that they've been with Jesus because of their courage and boldness. And so when God chooses you and maybe somebody's listening, they're like, well, yeah, I'm pretty dysfunctional. Well, guess what? You change when you meet Jesus. God works in you. My power becomes perfect in you and within you. God works in you. And so if you feel, man, I'm kind of weak or I'm kind of a little bit of a coward, well, guess what? God wants to fill you with his presence so that you can become more like Christ. And so that's good news. God chooses you for a purpose. And so I love to dive in, man. If somebody's listening right now and they're asking, okay, great, so God chooses me, even though I'm weak and there is a purpose for my life, how do I discover that calling? If God is specifically, specifically calling me for something that's extraordinary, beyond my capacity and my ability, how do I figure out what that is?

[A]

I think this is one of the. Were you going to say something, Janna?

[D]

I do. I mean, I do have things to say.

[A]

Well, go for it.

[D]

Yeah, I think, you know, first of all, you, like, you. You need to remain in him, so you need to be seeking him. And, you know, in the Word, you need to have that personal relationship. Because everyone God used in Scripture, like, they. I mean, they knew they couldn't be doing these things on their own, so they were constantly seeking him and asking God for his direction and what he wanted. And so you need to be in that personal relationship with Christ. And so just like John the Baptist, how he was always like, he, I must decrease, he must increase. And so that's what you want. You want to cultivate that relationship with the Lord to where you're changing. Like, you don't come to Christ and stay the same because God is constantly sanctifying you, growing you, making you new. He makes, like, all things new. And so. So first, I think that's where you've got to start. You've got. You. You want to grow your relationship with Christ. And as you're doing that, you know, God's gonna direct your path and he's gonna, like, kind of help you see, like, your gifts and how the spiritual gifts that he's given you, the people around you, can help identify those things in you. And as you start to use them, it's kind of like you see the places where you come alive, like, where. Like, serving the Lord where, like, does. Is there just a natural overflow in what you're doing and, like, start serving there and then just keep. Keep doing that.

[A]

Yeah, man, this is. I think so first of all, that last thing you just said, I think this huge. People, like, the biggest thing I think somebody's got to internalize is you are never going to be Happy. And you're never going to be fulfilled in your life until you discover what God put you on this planet to do, and you're doing it. So, you know, the Bible says that, that God put us on this planet. He created us for good works that he prepared in advance for us to do. So there are some things that for Pamela, Carlos, Jana, Josh, there are things that he planned before he made me, and then he made me with the intention of discovering that calling and then stepping into it. It and then, you know, discovering it and fulfilling that calling. So you just got to understand, you're never going to be happy until you figure out what that is and you're doing it. I think that's big. Now. The question is, I think most people are like, great God chooses, you know, misfit, the outsider. And I need to figure out what that is. How do I do it? That's the question we're trying to answer. When we were growing up. You guys remember spiritual gifts tests? They're mildly helpful. I've never.

[B]

They're like a Myers Briggs Christian version.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

That's a starting point.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, starting point.

[B]

You get what you paid for free online, on Google.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. I've got a. I have a friend. It's a true story that two people, they. They took one of the spiritual gift tests and so they, you know, they asked each other, hey, man, what did you get? One of the guys, like, man, I got martyred. I'm. Which is great, but you can only use it once and then you're done, you know. But then I thought you were gonna.

[B]

Say, no, I don't want to ruin it.

[A]

So then the other guy, he's like, well, what did you get? He's like, I got celibacy. And he's like, I think I'd rather have martyrdom. This is a little joke. But so, you know, you gotta figure out what is a good way. So I'll give, Let me. Let me say, a good framework that I'll use to help people figure out what God put you on this planet to do. And then why don't you guys add comments? Agree, disagree. You know, whatever you think. By the way, I got this from Tim Keller. Basically, if you just look for three things, whatever it is in your life, that's at the intersection of affinity, ability and opportunity. Affinity, ability, opportunity. Okay, so affinity. That's that, like, honestly, just go, what are you passionate about? What do you have an affinity for? Actually, what's helpful on. On discovering affinity that I found is Actually, if you frame it in the negative, what can I not stand? What is it like? I almost have a righteous anger about this. So my predecessor, the pastor Steve, he used to say. I've heard him say this a million times. He's like, man, I figured out I should pastor a church because what I literally cannot stand is churches that don't make sense, churches that just like, it doesn't make any sense why you're doing it that way. And it would just provoke him. And he was like, okay, well, I obviously have an affinity for churches that do make sense. Maybe I should do that. So, number one, affinity. Then number two, you're going, okay.

[B]

Can I interrupt you?

[A]

Please do.

[B]

Somebody's asking. I just like so many different things. How do I know? There's this. This bothers me and I'm passionate about this, and that other thing really captivates me. How would you. What would you say to that person?

[A]

I'm so glad you asked. Let me go to the second.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

So you're looking for something that checks all three of these boxes, not just one. Okay. Number two is ability. Okay, so not just affinity, what do I love doing? But also ability, because we just read it. So the Book of First Corinthians talks about this, Ephesians talks about this, that when you become a Christian, the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of you and he distributes spiritual gifts, supernatural abilities that we all use together to build up the body of Christ. So you have one of those. You just gotta figure out what it is. That's a supernatural ability, by the way. I'll just give a shout out here. We're launching rooted our discipleship mechanism in a few weeks. Like, it's a big deal. We've already had, I think, over a thousand lay pointers go through it. It's gonna be a big, big deal. This is how we disciple people. There's like a. Literally a whole week on discovering your calling and spiritual gifts. That helps with this. Somebody condense it. Okay, so. But so not just affinity, but ability. So what I mean by this, I'm be really gentle here. You guys probably don't have this problem in Lake 1 in Espanol, but every now and then you'll run into the person who. They're like, man, I've got this spiritual gift of singing, but nobody seems to have the spiritual gift of wanting to listen to them. That's a gentle way to say that. Well, hey, man, that's probably not your spiritual gift. That's probably not it, man. So it's not just what do you love to do? It's what, what has God made you good at? That's the thing. When I was growing up, like, the reason I'm doing what I'm doing today is Jeff Carlisle, my youth pastor that set me and Jan up on a blind date when I was like 15 years old. He looked at me and he was like, josh, you know what I see in you when you explain the Bible, people want to listen. So I think you're asking the second question. What do me and the people around me see that I'm good at? So affinity, ability. Now here's the third one is opportunity. You just go on, hey, where is there the highest need in the body of Christ that I'm a part of? So the Apostle Paul said he went where, quote, a wide door of effective service had been opened to him. So sometimes the third thing you need to do is just look around whatever church God's put you in and go, where's there the greatest need? Where's there a wide open door where man energy expended here is going to have a disproportionate help on the body I'm a part of. So those three things. What is at the intersection of affinity, ability, opportunity? There's your calling. Thoughts, agreements, disagreements.

[D]

One thing I would just add is one thing we do with our girls is we just have them try a bunch of different places of service. And so like if you just, if you're really lost, you're, you've kind of, you've done those things and you still don't know where to go, just try each week, try a different place and then you might find something you really, really love and you really come alive and God uses you best there. So I would suggest that too.

[C]

And I would only add to like, like sometimes we are like, well, this is our, this is my gift or this is my calling. I'm called to be a pastor, I'm called to teach or whatever. And then you're not willing to do, do anything else or. Because I enjoy doing these things, but I don't want, I don't enjoy serving in kids ministry. And you know, there's our greatest need right now. But like, oh yeah, but I teach, you know, so like, I think also be willing to just fulfill needs. Like in my case, I, I, I've heard of people that they knew they were going to be a pastor or like God called them to Africa and it was like very clear to them. For me, it was never like that. For me it was just, I love the Lord, I love the church. I just wanted to serve in the church. And I've done like literally everything in the church, you know, to being an assistant, a secretary, to working in groups, like serving in any capacity. Some things I didn't enjoy them, but I was just, I knew I was fulfilling a need and then I found something that I really enjoyed and the time was right and I was able to do it. So my point is, don't just wait on working on your gifts or in your abilities or like, you know, whatever serves your calling. Just be willing to fulfill needs that are right in front of you. And you may find something that you, you, you would be surprised.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

And take what you just said, Pamela. I think, you know, our generation is very much so like, let me find my thing. Let me find what I'm really passionate about. And, you know, that's why a lot of people, especially like our younger generation, they kind of hop jobs. Like every.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Six months is like, I don't, I didn't, like, I didn't like this person or this is not fulfilling to me. Well, you've only been there for like six months. You probably need to get a little bit more time. And so. And that's 1, 2. Serving is not ultimately about you. Serving is about like the need that's in front of you. And so I think it's a good reminder. I'll say for me. When I first got to Lake Point, I remember, you know, my wife and I were looking for a church basically, and I remember having a conversation with Pastor Paul Lewis and I just basically literally said, paul, whatever, wherever I can be helpful, like, we're happy to do that. And you know, this is where I jumped into student ministry. And there were some things that you do as a student pastor, part time student pastor, that I was not necessarily like, I didn't think I'd be doing those things, but that was the need that we had at the time. And that was great. Like, this is, you know, this is kind of, this is what my mentality should be. No matter what the season is, man, if there's a need, if I can help to meet it, that's kind of part of my calling for this season. And that's probably another thing. I'd say that every season might have a different assignment. So there's a calling and there's an assignment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I think some people think, oh man, I'm going to be stuck in this thing. And is this really my calling? I don't really like what I do. Well, maybe that's an assignment for the season and maybe you have to be faithful doing what you've been called to do in this season because God might actually move you towards the next thing in a different season if you are faithful in where you are.

[C]

And also, like, I, I, I have met people that like, I don't know, I'm called to be a pastor. Okay, but what is going to get you there? Like sometimes like, well, if I'm not hired to be a pastor, if I'm not put on a stage to preach because that's my ultimate calling, then I'm not willing to do that. Like, you know, there's steps, there are areas, there are preparation time. So like that's what I'm talking about. Just be willing to serve.

[A]

And you know, that's what I want to. So like, honestly Carlos, I want to honor you you so that I think that's why God's used you. Like, like he has. So like a lot of people don't know this, but you, you just allude to it. When I first met Carlos, dude, he wasn't leading church online. He wasn't hosting a live free podcast. There wasn't like, he wasn't, you know, you've taught main stage in weekend services twice this year. That, that's not what you're doing. You, you even though, and again, you just make, make you feel awkward. Even though, like you had a massive online platform, like 900000 YouTub. The world has 8 billion people in it, but you had 10 billion, you know, followers on Instagram is crazy. Even though that's, you were already doing that when I found you on our staff. Dude, you were a part time student guy at our Mesquite campus and you were just happy to be serving and discipling, you know, how many students a week you think?

[B]

I think we had like a solid 15.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

We loved every single one of them.

[A]

Yeah, dude, and you were just, just faithfully serve. And here's the big idea is there's a reason the Bible says when you're faithful with a little, then I'll give you much. And you do. See, what Pamela just said is like, man, this, I hope this doesn't sound weird but like sometimes people like grab me in the lobby and they'll be like, hey, Pastor Josh, I want to do what you do. I want to, you know, I just think I would have so much fun speaking at conferences or, you know, and I'm like, like, that's great, man. But here you see that. What you didn't see is where I started. I started in high school when I was 15, just walking into the student ministry and asking if I could teach a middle school boys life group when I was 16. And I wanted to be faithful and I studied all week so that I could disciple eight middle school boys on Wednesday. And then when I got to college. College, Yeah, I was leading. Actually they were called life groups at Union also. And it was 12 freshmen that I was discipling and teaching. And then I walked into the Nelson Baptist association little building and I did. Nobody wanted me to preach. I was terrible. But I just was like, man, you know, there's something that's in my heart. And I just said, if there's any little country Baptist church that needs somebody to come preach on a Wednesday night, you tell me when and I'll be there. And you know, the people in our lobby, they didn't see when I was walking in. And literally I remember preaching to six people at a little back roads Baptist church and they were all sitting as far away from me as they possibly could. But I preached my heart out because I was doing it for the Lord and not unto men. But it's that thing of you got to be faithful with a little and then God entrusts you with much. And so, so, you know, for somebody who has like Pamela just said, like I have these big, big dreams. What I say is, man, dream big, but start small. That's great. Have a great God sized vision for your life, please. But be willing to start small and be faithful with a little so that he can entrust you with much.

[B]

That's good, man. And to honor you honestly, people want to do what you do, but they don't want to pay the price that you've paid paid. And that's, you know, again for you, Josh, to, you know, you've shared a little bit about your story, but for you to get to where God has you today and there's been, there's been some work and there's a cost to you, your family. And so, and again, this is why the process is necessary. This is why the season that God has you in, no matter who you are, God is refining you, it's refining your character. And so again, there's a reason why God has you where you guys are, because you obviously been faithful as well. And God has worked it within you so that today you're ready to be where you got. Where God has you right now.

[A]

Dude, let me just. I want to say one more thing, because I, I do want to. I want to disciple us out of the very American idea that it's only a big deal if a whole lot of people watch you do it.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

So, like, that is completely contrary to the, the theme of the New Testament. What Jesus said was, your father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you. And so, like, I do want to, like, hey, watch out. Especially if you got, like, you're raised in that American dream. Like, man came from nothing and got real famous and real. Like, sometimes we can map that on to, like, spiritual callings. And the kingdom works different than that. And so, like, man, like that, that middle school boy's life group leader leader that disciples eight guys every Wednesday night. Or that kids ministry leader that walks in and they walk in going, I'm going to be a spiritual mother. This is not childcare for me. I'm going to be a spiritual mother to these kids. Like, you may end up changing eternity because of what you do in secret in that little classroom. So I do just want to, like, hey, watch out, watch out. That you don't only think it's a big deal if a whole bunch of people see you do it. Yeah.

[B]

We weren't planning to talk about this, but I have a thought on that. I think because I asked God to bring conviction to my heart to make sure that my motivation is always in the right place. And so I think, again, it's not just about what you do. It's about the motivation in your heart, which is what you're saying. Anytime you see in Scripture, people concerned about, oh, how many people were there? Did they like me? Did I get enough applause? Am I being esteemed? Highly. Let me give you some examples of the people that do that in the Bible. King Saul, Saul, he wrestled with comparison, envy and popularity. He started to compare himself with David, and then he started feeling a little envious. He was a little too concerned with that. The result was he ended up with paranoia, rage, and ultimately he lost the anointing. The Pharisees, they were very much concerned about being seen in front of people. And Jesus strongly rebukes them for their hypocrisy and their pride. King Herod, he wanted to be worshiped like a God.

[A]

This is not an awesome list.

[B]

Nope, this is a. And this is a pretty bad list. God strikes him down and he's eaten by worms. Pontius Pilate, again, I could keep going. There's a whole list. And so whenever I find myself, like, you know, when I find Myself concerned about. I think I'm wearing a little. Am I paying too much attention? Instead of actually focusing on serving other people and meeting other people's needs, I'm like, I go back to this list and be like, man, man, that's a different team right there. I don't want to be in this list. By the grace of God, Lord, help me submit my heart to be with a posture of surrender and not entitlement. But just how can I serve other people?

[A]

Carlos, come on, man.

[C]

Sometimes as part of my work at the church, I make phone calls to the people that visit us from the first time or to invite people to our discipleship program. And it's amazing to me, whenever I talk to them and say, why do you come to Lake Pointer Espanol? Or, why did you stay? Or whatever, they're always saying, well, this person at the door received me so welcoming, and they were so happy about it. Or, like, I attended this live group, and then I was at the hospital, and they visited me at the hospital, and I was like, wow, they care about me. They rarely mention, like, oh, the sermon was amazing. Oh, like, the singers were great. Like, they always mention the things that are not so public or, like, so sin. So, like, those are the things that make a huge impact on people. And they never forget. They forget about sermons every week, but they never forget about the people that really serve them or, like, were willing to fulfill a need in their lives.

[A]

Amen.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah, that's. It's a tangible, like, experience of. Of Christ. And you don't lose that. You don't forget that.

[B]

That's great, man. It's really good.

[A]

Now we'll say, I'll give a plug here. If somebody is sitting there and they're like, okay, dude, I'm in. I need to figure it out. What they need to do is they need to text the word serv. Serve to the number 20411. Text SERVE to 20411. And figure out that spot where it's like, okay, man, I'm gonna step in and make an eternal difference. Somewhere in the body of Christ, they need to do that.

[B]

Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know God, find freedom, discover calling, and make a difference. We want you to make a difference. We are here to help in any way we can. There's opportunity to serve here at Lake Point. There you go.

[A]

You want to talk about Brandon Lake?

[B]

Let's talk about Brandon Lake.

[A]

Come on, man. This is a few weeks ago. Yeah, I'm interested, because we. We did not sink on what all of us were going to say about this.

[B]

We're. We're bringing this back because it's been. I think it's been like a month or so.

[A]

Yeah. But when this happened, I'll be honest, I don't know how this. This made me. This made me a little hot. I was like, oh, I don't.

[C]

I don't like this.

[B]

Okay, so.

[A]

So let. All right, you want to set the stage?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's a video. So, you know, Brandon Lake is probably one of the. Probably one of the more famous voices right now in the worship space. Christian worship space. So this is a video and a.

[A]

Podcast he's done lately. Hard Fight. Hallelujah. He wrote. Oh, that song, guy.

[D]

Yeah. Great song.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I mean, he's been in spaces as well. I mean, I think Jimmy Kimmel, like, he's. He's been with Jelly Roll.

[A]

Jimmy Kimmel. Jimmy Kimmel.

[B]

I thought he was. Yes.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I'm pretty sure he was. Or Jimmy Fallon.

[A]

One or the other.

[B]

One of the Jimmies. And so.

[A]

One of the Jimmies.

[B]

One of the Jimmies.

[A]

But, dude, gratitude. You know gratitude.

[B]

I do know gratitude.

[A]

That was like when we were on vacation a few weeks ago.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That was like my vacation beach playlist. Like, just gratitude attitude, man.

[B]

There's no doubt God has used Brandon. He went viral recently because of a. A clip that was debated. It sparked a heated debate. So let's check out the clip the Internet did.

[A]

I'd love to see more worship sets, more churches. Like, kind of keep Bubba in mind. The guy who's, like, in the back of the room, he got dragged there by his wife. When you're opening song or the. Most of your songs have so much Christianese.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Language. Like, when your first song is. Is like, holy.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

Holy is the Lord God Almighty. I think he's going like, what does holy mean? Holy, like, what? Obviously, that's where we want to get to in a worship set. Yeah. But, like, give Bubba some language. He can be like, I find myself in that song. I feel like that. And hopefully that's what some of my music can continue to do. That's how worship should be to introduce people. Because people don't know. You're right. Like, one of the challenges that we found when we were, like, telling people about Jesus in the street. I call Christianese, too, but, like, I could say something like repentance, and they're like, what does that even mean? What does that mean? And it's like, you got to Teach them. They have to understand. Like, why would someone to quote, unquote, repent. Well, it's because they don't even know who Jesus is. And this man. And, like, this simplistic understanding. Jesus isn't doing mental gymnastics with Bryce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, this, like, simple, get my foot in the door and I. I'm so stupid. So I'm still like, you know, I. I gotta. I gotta have it fed to me on a spoon, you know, kind of thing. But thank you for writing that song.

[B]

I think this ties well with even our conversation for. At the movies. Yeah, it's similar, you know, we. We see a lot of new guests. Guests here at Lake Point in the season. And so there's a. I want to let you. Let's just overall reaction.

[A]

Do you want to show. So he got crushed for this show, the Babylon Bee.

[B]

There's the Babylon.

[A]

You're right, by the way. I usually like the Babylon be. But toss that up there. Yeah, there you go. So they were like, roasting worship pastor makes praise songs more accessible by removing all references to God and Jesus, trying to make a joke about it. And he got roasted a little bit, and I thought it was really stupid. He got roasted, like, little bit. So here, I'll tell you what I think how I took that thing. So first of all, as a guy who, you know, it's like, you know, a lot of the things I say are public, and a lot of the times when I'm done, I'm like, oh, I could see if somebody looked at it from that angle, they would think of it the wrong way. And it's like. But I meant it from this angle. Now I just, I want to point out. He literally said, I want to get him there. Like, I just want to point that out. He literally said later in the clip, I want to get him there. But the Internet just went ahead to roasting him because holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty is literal biblical language. And we obviously don't wanna remove biblical language from praise songs. And that's not what he's saying. Like, go listen to some of his stuff. Like, he uses explicitly biblical language in tons of his stuff.

[B]

Makes 95% of music with, like, holy, holy, holy. Makes 5% of music with, like, not holy, holy. Crazy. What are you doing?

[A]

So, like, I just, like, did all this. I'm so over the Christian cancel culture thing, where it's like everybody just walks around acting exactly like the world, where we interpret somebody in the worst possible light. Take the one thing that they might have Said a smidge different. If they had a little more time to think about it, isolate that one thing and then like, that's the, like, I didn't see any. I haven't seen any. I could be wrong. I haven't. Could be wrong. I haven't seen any Babylon Bee little articles about how awesome it is that his biblically faithful, faithful songs have gone viral and influenced millions of people. They just take the one thing that it's like, ah, he might have said that different if he had a second. And, and they omitted the fact that he literally got to, hey, I want to get him there. So I, I just, I'm totally out on it, but here's why I'm. I'm out on the Christian cancel culture thing. In the Bible, who is it that is always interpreting Christians in the worst possible light and then accusing them based on interpreting them in the worst possible light? Well, that's Satan, who is called the accuser of the brethren in the book of Revelation. So I'm like, hey man, let's. How about like a little more Jesus, a little less Satan. Let's do it. Let's do that. So I got more things that I would say there. But that's why I first thought my.

[D]

First thing with, with like just little clips is like, okay, let's see the full thing to keep everything in full context. And because I think you're so wise, the little spirit, it does take things out of context. I don't know what he said previously. I just know, like, his songs are worshipful. They do talk about Jesus. They too talk about like God being holy. So I, I would need to see the, the full thing of, of what he said. But I mean, I have other thoughts too. But, but I think that just like.

[C]

You say from that short clip, I think they're just mixing two concepts together. Like there can be evangelistic songs or like, you know, songs that eventually lead you to the faith, but they're like worship songs that you cannot take the language of Christianese language, whatever, because they're for Jesus. They're not to attract you to God or they're not to make you feel, you know, good. They're directed to God. So I think they're just mixing maybe the choice of words or that particular just portion of the clip. Because worship songs, I mean, of course they have to talk about God. They have to talk about redemption, his attributes or whatever, but there are songs that could just attract people to God. So I think there's a difference. Just as with the movies, there's Evangelism. There's the things that you make the gospel relatable, but then there's discipleship. When you teach them the Bible, they're two separate things. So think I. I think in this particular clip, I think that's a confusion because they're mixing two things together. But if you're putting a worship song without God in it.

[D]

I know. Do y' all know what song they were talking about? Because I think they were just where they started.

[A]

They weren't talking about a specific song just in. They were just talking about the use.

[B]

Of, like, words like holy or words that an unbeliever like Bubba, like, he mentioned, wouldn't necessarily understand what.

[C]

But I mean, the worship song is not. Not for Bubba, right? The worship song is for God.

[D]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah. But yes, that's exactly right. And that's really important. Which is, by the way, that's why Brandon in the clip later says, I want to get him there. I want to get it. But what he's saying is, like, dude, you'll hear me. And, you know, it's kind of the thing I'll do in sermons where I'm like, if you can learn the language to order at Starbucks, I can use theological language in church. And then I'll talk about words like propitiation, sanctification, glorification, you know, doxological.

[C]

You have to learn a whole language to go to Starbucks. So, like, why don't you.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. But what I will do is you'll notice, like, I'll take those. Those theological words that the Bible uses, and then I'll explain them. I'll explain. I'll put the cookies in the bottom shelf. Propitiation. I got this from Joby Martin. Propitiation, that's payment, that satisfies, you know, things like that. Condemnation. That's a builder's term that means unfit for use. So, like, I'll. And the reason I sympathize what he said is he's talking about Bubba. I usually. I call him a drink a beer and watch a game guy. I'm like a normal drink a beer and watch a game guy. And I will say, like, most pastors are not real good at communicating to just normal dudes that sit at home and they're not reading Jonathan Edwards, you know, in their free time, they're drinking a beer and watching a game. And I love his heart that I want to disciple that guy in a way that he understands stance. I love it.

[B]

That's a missionary's perspective. How do I contextualize the gospel and we're called to. There's a, there's a biblical mandate to contextualize the gospel to the person so that they can understand it wherever they are in their faith journey. So absolutely.

[C]

That's what. And I, I'm not roasting him like, yes, you were. I'm kidding.

[A]

No, no, you brought it down.

[C]

My point is that I think there's two different kind of songs that he's talking about and he's putting them in the same category. Like, like you're talking about a music or a song that will attract someone to Jesus. Like, that's more like an evangelistic song to me. But if you're talking about a worship song that a Christian person that already understands the gospel is using to worship God, you cannot remove the holy words, you know, from that song, you know, So I think that's the only thing that he's mixing the two together. You cannot say it's a worship song if you're not talking, talking about God. Yes, you know, yes.

[B]

Yeah, but see, I would say to. I agree with what you're saying. And you know, I do think, you know, when it comes to, when you look at scripture too, even like the psalms, like, not every psalm is holy, holy, holy. Like some of the psalms are, man, I'm wrestling with depression. And it's a, it's an expression. It's a. Because in a certain way, like, it's also like when you, when you worship, it's kind of like prayer. You're telling God, hey, here's where I am. And so I think, man, I think we need both. I think we need the holy, holy holies. And you know, there's a way and there's a sense in which God uses the hard fought hallelujah to, to reach people. The. I've heard it said before Mary, the mission, they, the methods. There's a, every different churches have different. Have probably the same mission to, to reach the lost, but they have different methods.

[A]

Here's. I'll just, I'll maybe put a final word on it. Here's, here's what I love. I honestly heard the. That and I thought that man has a shepherd's heart. You have Psalm 23. What does a shepherd do? He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Okay. So what a shepherd does is he has an understanding of where the sheep are and his goal is to take them for he leads me somewhere. His goal is to take the sheep from where they are to where I want to get Them I, I heard that. I was like, that man's got a shepherd's heart. And he specifically said, said I want to get them there. My watch out for Christians is that you do not start participating in I, you know, I will. And I'm not calling the Babylon be satanic. I'm. They were a little tongue and cheek joke. I'm talking about Internet Christian cancel culture vibe.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Is that you do not participate in something that is overtly demonic and satanic. For instance, the book of Galatians specifically commands, Christians, watch out that you do not bite and devour one another. And whenever everybody just jumps straight to, I'm going to interpret you in the worst possible light. Oh, by the way, 1 Corinthians 13 says that what love does is love believes all things. In other words, what loving Christians do is they'll hear another Christian and they go, I'm going to choose to interpret them in the best possible light. And whenever you see somebody who intentionally will isolate one little phrase like that and then intentionally interpret the person in the worst possible light, they're doing the. It's like it's an antichrist move where Christ love believes all things. They're like, oh, I'm going to disbelieve. Believe all things. And then Christ unites. Satan does the. I'm going to bite and devour. I'm a lion to devour. So what I would. Here's. That's my warning for Christians. We're not people who participate in the spirit of the accuser Christian cancel culture thing. That's not a thing. Obviously. Caveat. You got to do all the caveats because the Internet, Internets, yes. There are some people that should not be a ministry. No, I'm not talking about overlooking things like abuse, blah, blah. But you know what I'm talking about. Like, hey, man, let's be people who are people of overt love and build up the body Christ.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Team Brandon Lake.

[B]

That's really good, man.

[A]

Team Brandon Lake.

[B]

Shout out to Brandon. Hey. Well, man, this is a good episode, guys.

[A]

At the movies, week one.

[B]

At the movies, week one. Pastor Josh, would you please pray for us?

[A]

I would love to, Father. Thank you for the men and women that are listening right now. Lord, would you please call all of us a back to a whole heart of overt humility before the living God. I pray that all of us spend our entire lives to our dying days with a heart that says, I am a man or I am a woman who is poor and needy and his grace is sufficient for me because his power is made perfect in weakness. Father, fill the men and women who are listening with your spirit in a fresh way way. Move them to lay down their lives with everything we have to advance the kingdom, advance the Gospel, and lift up the name of your son Jesus by serving the body of Christ. And I pray that you give them joy, grace and fulfillment as they do it. In Jesus name, Amen. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church Livefree. We'll see you next time.