Is President Trump Saved?!...Will He Go To Heaven? (ft. Rich Froning) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Live Free with Josh Howerton

Host: Lakepointe Church
Episode Title: Is President Trump Saved?!...Will He Go To Heaven? (ft. Rich Froning) | Live Free with Josh Howerton
Date: October 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

This packed episode of Live Free with Josh Howerton blends cultural commentary, biblical teaching, and inspiring testimony. The first half centers on the spiritual state of President Donald Trump—specifically whether he is "saved" and the biblical basis for assurance of salvation. Drawing in recent public statements from Trump and scriptural themes of judgment, the hosts break down misconceptions about heaven, works, faith, and the afterlife. In the second half, CrossFit legend Rich Froning joins for an honest conversation about living and competing for God’s glory. The group explores parallels between athletics and discipleship, the power of intentional habits, and Rich’s powerful adoption and faith journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Heaven Conversation: Trump, Judgment, and Genuine Faith

The Trump Clip and Why It Matters

• President Trump recently made candid comments questioning his entry into heaven, even as he highlights his accomplishments (e.g., brokering peace, doing good for the country). The hosts play a clip that captures Trump’s uncertainty and reflect on his apparent moral striving and public expressions of respect for Christianity.

  Quote [48:10] - President Trump:
  "I'm being a little cute. I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven. I really don't. I think I'm not maybe heaven bound... but I've made life a lot better for a lot of people."

• Host Reflection: The panel suggests Trump fits the biblical category of "God-fearer"—someone aware of God and eternity, still outside saving faith, but possibly on a journey.

  Josh [37:45]:
  "It is a wonderful and good thing to have a president that cares about heaven... The biblical category to potentially put President Trump in... is God-fearer."

Judgment in Christian Theology: Two Major Frameworks

• Paul (“ChatGPaulC”) provides an in-depth rapid-fire breakdown of the two primary frameworks:

  • Dispensationalism: Multiple, timeline-based judgments—Bema Seat (rewards for Christians), judgment of Israel, nations, and Great White Throne (for unbelievers).
  • Covenant Theology: More symbolic, sees one judgment event with differentiation in results for believers (commendation) vs. unbelievers (condemnation).

  Paul [24:54]: "For Christians, our judgment is one of commendation... Scripture indicates... varying degrees of reward based on our life of faithfulness and fruitfulness."

  Memorable moment [28:33]:

  • “I don’t have a chart for that one... it would just be like, dot, there’s just a chair. The chart’s just a chair, it all happens at one place.”

Biblically: Grace, Works, and the Assurance of Salvation

• Grace alone saves; effort and obedience (driven by grace) result in rewards, not salvation.
  Carlos [57:04]:
  "For it is by grace you have been saved... not by works so that no one can boast."

• Trump’s comments reflect a common but mistaken idea (work your way in).
  Paul [57:38]:
  "If I had time with Donald Trump, here’s what I would tell him... actually you don’t understand just how serious your sin is... there is no amount of good works that can ever bridge that infinite gap between us and God. But here’s the good news—God himself came down in flesh as Jesus Christ..."

The Role of Humility and Childlike Dependence

• Josh:
  "The first step to getting into heaven is admitting you can’t... In the New Testament, I’m not sure you read about anybody who gets to the point of admitting, 'I am not worthy to be accepted,' that doesn’t eventually make it through Christ." - [54:05]

The Parable of the Tax Collector

• Used to illustrate that those who humbly confess their inability receive justification:
  “It’s not that good people are in and bad people are out... it’s the humble that are in and the proud that are out.” - [56:00]

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2. Christian Foundations: Judgment, Rewards, and Living With Eternity in View

We Don’t Think About Death—The Pascal “Monster” Analogy

• Why do people ignore mortality? The devil’s first lie: "You will not surely die" (Genesis).
• Blaise Pascal’s party analogy: Even as people see others dragged off by death, they resume life without considering their own fate.
  Josh [08:39]: "That’s what human life is like... your day is coming. Your day is gone."

The Race Analogy in Scripture (Hebrews 12, 1 Corinthians 9)

• Keep your eyes on your own race—not others’ calling.
  • Focus on your “lane” ("There’s a race marked out for you").
  • “Winners focus on winning, losers focus on winners.” [18:37]

Degrees of Reward & Punishment

• Not every Christian/Hell-dweller receives the same outcome.
  • Heaven: “...based on how we live.”
  • Hell: “Degrees of punishment... God will factor all of that into account because God is good, just, and fair.” [31:31]

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3. Rich Froning: Testimony of Faith, Discipline, and Impact

Rich's Faith Journey

• Competitive failure at 2010 CrossFit Games led to transformation:
  Rich [66:34]:
  "I wouldn't be where I am, wouldn't be the man I am today without that instance... I wouldn't have followed Jesus as close as I do now... we did a men's Bible study in Romans and man, it changed my life."

• Transition from “Santa Claus God” to relationship:
  “I wanted to make the decision [baptism] for myself. Jesus made the decision at 30; I want to make that decision for myself.” [74:44]

• Tattoo: Galatians 6:14 as a constant gospel reminder.

Parallels: Faith and Athletics

• Singular focus and healthy obsession: "To be the best in the world at anything, that's got to be your singular focus." [90:26]
• Consistency trumps intensity: "Consistency will always beat intensity." [90:55]
• The power of habits and “stacking days”: “At night... how did you do in those three things [faith, family, fitness]? Short memory when you do good, short memory when you do bad.” [98:29]
• Pain, discipline, and “secondhand enjoyment”:
  "Secondhand enjoyment—this sucks in the moment, but at the end you're like, I did something hard and it was a good mental check." [94:15]
• Key spiritual lesson: Run to win, not for aimless striving but toward eternal rewards.
• Encouragement: "Be a part of a church... get in that Word every day... church doesn't stop here, you are the church—tell people about Jesus." [112:29]

Authentic Witness in the World

• Leverage influence and platforms:
  "The talent that I was given, or the gifts that I was given... my gift back was: tell as many people as I can about Jesus." [102:12]
• Authenticity, not perfection:
  "I love Jesus but I cuss a little bit..." [102:12]

The Adoption Story—Living the Gospel

• Rich’s family testimony: three adopted children, the role of faith during infertility, and his wife's book “Blessed By Adoption.”
• Moving courtroom moment about adoption and inheritance as a “multimedia gospel presentation,” paralleling Romans 8 and God’s love for His adopted children.
  Josh [109:52]:
  "For you have not been given a spirit of fear, but a spirit of adoption as sons, by which we're… this is exactly what happened to me from the perspective of eternity…”
• Rich: "I didn't understand unconditional love until that point... at no point am I ever like, oh yeah... my kids are my kids." [111:03]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• President Trump, on the afterlife:
  "I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven... I may be in heaven right now as we fly at Air Force One. I'm not sure I personally, I'm going to be able to make heaven, but I've made life a lot better for a lot of people." [48:09]

• Paul, on the seriousness of sin:
  "The seriousness of our sin is related to who our sin is against. When we sin against an infinite God, our sin is infinitely serious…"[58:48]

• Josh, on humility and salvation:
  "The first step to getting into heaven is admitting you can't..." [54:05]

• Rich, on faith and focus:
  "I was doing it for the right reasons... I wanted to compete to glorify God. But then once I had my daughter, I was like, man, I can't obsess with what I'm doing and be a good father." [68:55]

• On wisdom and growth:
  “You don't want to overdo it to where it turns people off. That's the hard part… but I love Jesus and love what he's done...” [102:12]

• Josh, on eternal perspective:
  "Succeeding at things that don't matter is the worst kind of failure." [91:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:37] – Show banter; setup and preview of Rich Froning’s appearance.
• [05:41] – Celebrating 2,500 baptisms; vision for “Run to Win” sermon series.
• [06:54] – Introduction to the doctrine of judgment; two types of judgments.
• [08:39] – Why don’t people think about death? The “party and monster” analogy.
• [13:42] – The “race” analogy in Scripture; Hebrews 12 visual illustration.
• [18:37] – The temptation to run someone else’s race; Michael Phelps photo.
• [24:54] – In-depth segment: Dispensationalism vs. covenant theology judgments.
• [31:31] – Degrees of reward in heaven and punishment in hell.
• [37:31] – President Trump discussion: clips, analysis, and spiritual state.
• [48:09] – President Trump’s candid remarks about heaven.
• [53:17] – Authentic conversions; “middle of the transformation story” analogy.
• [54:05] – The tax collector parable and potential hope for Trump’s salvation.
• [66:34] – Rich Froning’s testimony: CrossFit failure and faith breakthrough.
• [73:09] – Rich details his journey toward bold public faith.
• [90:13] – Athletics and discipleship: strict training, focus, consistency.
• [94:15] – Embracing pain; “secondhand enjoyment” and facing storms.
• [104:32] – Rich’s adoption story and the gospel implications of adoption.
• [112:29] – Rich’s closing encouragement: the Word, the Church, and the mission.
• [113:33] – Push-up competition to close the episode (light-hearted ending).

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Conclusion

This episode skillfully interweaves urgent gospel truth, thoughtful theological teaching, and inspiring real-life testimony. The most powerful motif is the call to live with eternity in mind—whether asked about the fate of a president, the struggles of everyday Christians, or the singular focus of a world-class athlete. Run your race to win. Embrace God’s grace. Leverage your days for what matters most.

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Notable moment: Real-time push-up contest among Josh, Carlos, and Rich Froning closes the episode with camaraderie and humor.

For group study and further reflection, the episode notes (aka "Discipleship Guide") are available via text or website.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Arazo, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton.

[A]

And it is time to kick this pig. It is time to kick this pig.

[B]

Pastor Paul Cunningham. I remixed that phrase today, and Josh is, like.

[A]

Not a hot. Literally 10 seconds before this podcast started recording, Carla said, it is time to kick this cake.

[C]

Like, very matter of factly, I. It is time.

[B]

I'm owning it, man. I'm remixing it.

[A]

This is an interesting episode here.

[B]

Yeah, it's going to be a good one.

[A]

We got hey here in just a second, y' all got to stay tuned. We have Rich froning, the world's three time most fittest of most fit, man. CrossFit champion of the universe.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Who we connected on Instagram and then we've been texting dude. Rich is a good dude. Like, very public with his faith and it gets that monster. And we're just going to tease this. The episode will end with me with.

[B]

A masterclass on how to do push ups by me for Josh and Rich.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Me, Carlos and Rich are going to do an actual push up competition to close the episode.

[B]

Let's go, man. Rich is. I will say, I appreciate how humble he is.

[A]

Very. Yeah.

[B]

So humble. Yeah.

[A]

And he's a good dad, too.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. So, man, I had a great time with him.

[A]

Yeah, it's gonna be awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Cool.

[B]

Well, hey, before, actually, man, I. By the way, great job last episode where I missed it and it was great. We are here. I didn't introduce Paul the Epistle Missile. Paul Cunningham, by the way, I got a nickname for you.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

Oh, no. So multiple nicknames.

[B]

Hey, thank you to everybody that suggested different nicknames. And I think the Epistle Missile's probably the winner.

[A]

It's pretty good.

[D]

It's pretty good.

[B]

So it's hard to beat. So I'M going to try pretty good. So here's the one I got.

[A]

I can't wait.

[B]

So you know when you, Josh, when you talk to Paul and you just ask him, like, a theological question, he goes like, chatgpt mode. Right. Obviously, you're going to see that in a second.

[A]

This is going to be so good.

[B]

So my nickname for Paul is when he goes in high theological mode, man. Because you remind me of ChatGPT. You are ChatGPT.

[A]

Oh, man. Wow. Because G. Paul T.

[B]

Anyways, hey, you.

[A]

Could do G. Paul Cunningham. Oh, gpc.

[B]

Let us know in the comment section if you like this one.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Chad. G. Paul C. Yeah. Or the Epistle missile. I mean, they're both pretty.

[C]

They're both great.

[A]

And then we can give the hat away. Yeah, that's it. We're gonna keep giving away. Where's the camera? We're gonna keep giving away the live free hats to somebody in the comment section on YouTube. So they can also do the, like, comment. Yes, subscribe. By the way, the pot is just blowing up.

[C]

It's crazy.

[A]

And it's because of everybody. Like. And subscribe. Oh, help us with reviews. Help us. Yeah, I want to get that review count up, especially on itunes.

[B]

Itunes, Spotify. That's right, man.

[A]

Let's help us out with that.

[B]

Yeah, let us know how much like Pastor Josh in the. In the Apple review.

[C]

But no, Carlos, we're just glad you're back, man. I mean, last week in your place, we had a window washer.

[D]

We did What?

[B]

What are you talking about?

[A]

He didn't watch it yet.

[C]

He's not on.

[A]

He's like, I'm not on.

[B]

I'm not gonna watch it.

[A]

He's on vacation.

[B]

Hey, I might have watched the first.

[A]

I don't know. He's on vacation. You gotta watch the podcast.

[C]

Yeah, no shame.

[A]

We were in the middle of the podcast. I was in the 23rd floor. That's hilarious. I was on the 23rd floor, and in the middle of it, I hear this, like, bumping, and I turn around as a dude hanging off the top of this tower cleaning the window. I was like, I'm glad I'm dressed. Yeah. Like, right outside my window.

[C]

Of all the times right then.

[A]

I know.

[B]

That's great. You didn't invite him to the podcast.

[A]

Actually, I turned the. I actually did. He waved. It was awesome, man. So we're gonna. This is. We gotta move fast on the front end, dude. That's true. Rich Froning is gonna join us here in a second. The reason we're Doing that is we started a series this week called Run to Win that is based on passage in Corinthians. This specifically commands Christians to run in such a way as to win the prize. And after Rich and I connected, and I've been watching how public he is with his faith as a, you know, just dude building a business, crushing it in his field. And I was like, man, what better guy to talk about what it looks like to compete in such a way as to win the prize? He's like the world's fittest man three times over. Let's talk. So he's going to come in, we're going to talk about very interesting comments about from President Trump about how he doesn't think he's getting into heaven. And I have a lot of thoughts, and it's really interesting and enlightening. And then I would just want to celebrate one other thing. We this last weekend crossed 2,500 baptisms at Lake Point this year.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

That's amazing, dude.

[A]

I just want to say it one more time. Like, 2,500 baptisms this year. Just never seen anything like it. And I think, wow, it wouldn't surprise me if we saw 3,000 people baptized by the end of the year.

[B]

Do you remember how many we saw last year?

[A]

It was just over 2000.

[B]

2000.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

I know, man.

[B]

Praise God.

[A]

I know. It's amazing.

[B]

Wow. Hey, before we start, for people that are wondering maybe they're new, we actually compile everything that we're going to be discussing. Key takeaways, main highlights, chat, G, Paul, C notes, etc. We put it into a document and we call these the discussion questions. Actually, we call them the discipleship guide. And we're also also known as the show notes. And what we do is we believe that your next step after this podcast is community. And so, man, we've had over 5,000 people download. That's crazy.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

And so you can take these notes to your discipleship guide, to your group. And again, it's a tool for you to continue to go deeper in your discipleship. And so to get the show notes, text the word notes to 20411 or go to Point Church Shownotes. Pastor Josh. What else did I make it into?

[A]

Let's make this short because we want to have time for Rich. And then I do want to talk about the. The Trump thing. Couple things real quick. So if you missed a sermon, you know, highly recommend. You know, get this, honestly is like a life message for me. I Mentioned this at the beginning of the sermon. Pastor Chris Hodges, I just want to shout him out. Has become kind of a spiritual father and mentor to me. He was just here a couple weeks ago at Lake Point, here to pray. Pray with me and help our team. And this message, kind of a life message about judgment, about. Essentially, this message was, what is going to happen to you the second you die? So, like, 60 seconds, very frankly, it leads right into the trump clip. Very 60 seconds after you die, what is going to happen? And we talked about two judgments. Great white throne judgment, what's called the Bema seat judgment. We're going to talk about that more on the pod when Rich hops in, because there's some really cool archaeological stuff that we'll get to. But honestly, man, like, just here's what. Didn't have time to make it in the sermon. It's very interesting. A lot of people don't know this. You know, humans were bad. We don't think about death. Like, we never think about death. A lot of people don't realize there's a spiritual reason for that. I won't.

[B]

I won't.

[A]

It's not fair to theologically. Pop quiz you guys with a camera. Rolling. That's, like, not cool. But.

[B]

And I kind of want you to do Carlos.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

What's the first lie Satan ever told.

[B]

On earth?

[A]

Actually, let me do this. Sorry. What's one of the. Let me do it. What's one of the first two lies Satan ever told on earth? On earth?

[B]

I don't know if you're going Ezekiel or anything.

[A]

Ezekiel.

[B]

He would say, well, did God really say.

[A]

Yeah, that's one of the first two. You will not say. That's it. He said, you will not surely die. So one of the first things he ever planted in the heart of a fallen human soul was, you will not surely die. So think about this. If you. If you kind of ask, like, man, it is actually kind of interesting. Everybody's going to die. Like, bad news, y'.

[D]

All.

[A]

Every single person. Yes. That whole. I think it's Anne Lamott quote, 100 years, all new people. But we don't think about it. The most momentous event from a human perspective in your life, People just don't think about it. There's a spiritual reason for that. Satan plants a deception of the heart of people so that they won't think about the fact that they're going to die. Because if they start thinking about it, they'll do something about it. Okay, so this is really interesting. Blaise Pascal, who I think was a 17th century because I think he was the 1600s. Wrote a really interesting book called the Pensies. Also, this is a little side note. Next time we do a Holy Spirit, a Holy Spirit pod where we talk about filling or baptism. Holy Spirit, Blaise Pascal, French mathematician, had one of the most radical encounters recorded in church history with the Holy Spirit. Essentially had this encounter with the Holy Spirit. I didn't plan to talk about this. I may pull it up, actually. This is really awesome. Had this encounter with the Holy Spirit that was so radical that he stopped doing math and spent the rest of his life. He wrote this book called the Pences that are about basically theology, Jesus, God. When he died, I didn't plan to talk about this. They found sewed into his cloak his journal entry from this night where he had this encounter with God. And he, you know, it's pretty crazy to read it, actually. So anyway, after that, which we'll talk about on a future podcast, which is really awesome, what he says is, he used this analogy. He says it's like human experience is like this massive party and it's like it's happy people, loud music, dancing. And he's like, imagine this party and then every few minutes a massive ferocious monster bursts through the door, randomly grabs one person at the party and pulls them kicking and blood curdling, screaming out and devours them. And everyone watches it happen. And then he says, everybody sees it happen. And they pause for about 10 seconds and then immediately the band kicks back up and everybody starts dancing again and everybody goes back to laughing and drinking their refreshments. And he says, that's what human life is like. Wow. That everyone around you, you will hear these stories about somebody dying and that's the monster coming and grabbing them. And you know that something awful, like terrifying just happened to them. But everybody just band kicks back up, we go to work the next day. And we don't think about the fact that someday it's coming for you. Because the first thing Satan ever planted in our heart is you will not surely die. So honestly, the biggest thing preaching about judgment is just getting into people's hearts. Your day is coming. Your day is gone. What are you going to say, Paul?

[C]

Oh, no, I mean, just all that it literally says in Hebrews, it is appointed once for all to die, and then comes judgment.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

It's the great equalizer.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

That at one point we're all going to die and then we're going to stand before God and all of life led to that one moment. And we've got to be ready for that one moment.

[A]

That's exactly right, man. Wow. Paul, I want you to talk about this a little bit more here in a second. Last thing I'll say, because we're going to get a little more into the text later in the podcast, is I wish I'd have had more time in the sermon to develop, like, the race analogy, because people probably don't realize how dominant the race running a race analogy is. In the New Testament, one of the verses my Jeff shout out, Jeff Carlisle, my youth pastor, had me memorize when I first became a Christian was is from Hebrews 12. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders in the sin which so easily entangles and run with endurance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Okay, so it's gone. Hey. Your whole life as a Christian is analogy of this race. Now I just. I just want. This is what I didn't. I cut this at the last second from the sermon. I was like, ah, I hate leaving this out. So, Trinity, I'm getting ready to. Don't toss it up yet. I'm getting ready to toss up that one picture. I love. I love this analogy from Hebrews 12. Like, great cloud of witnesses. Every Christian from all of human history is literally. This passage says, like, they're watching you, and the moment that your day comes and you step into glory, that it's like you're in a massive stadium and they're cheering you on in. So years ago, I saw this. And didn't we. Didn't we pull the context for this picture? Go ahead and toss that picture up. Is this Javi Baez? Who is this?

[C]

Yeah, Baez, I believe. Yeah, that's number 13. This should be bias.

[A]

Who was it? Trinity.

[C]

Oh, I was wrong.

[A]

Who is it?

[D]

Bote.

[A]

Bote. David Bote.

[C]

I thought it was bias.

[B]

It gets some things wrong sometimes.

[C]

Listen, I was trying to zoom in. I was trying to zoom in. Yeah, I believe. Number 13 and point one. Javi Baez. And I saw the B. My bad.

[A]

All right, all right. So here's what. Dude, here's what. So if you're on YouTube especially, I encourage you to get your eyes close to the screen. Years ago, I saw somebody make this analogy, and I want to, like, if you can see the faces of these dudes, they're all waiting here at home plate. And in one sense, they've all crossed the line and they're all there and if you can see their faces, it's just pure jubilation. Like they know this dude. I think in the conversation context here, he hit a 13th inning home run, just won the game and bro, he's got the, like, he's, he's got the arms out, he's, he's flying round in third, third base Coach is just like, ah, crowds roaring. These dudes, their face are just like, come on home, home plate, come home. And honestly man, I, I think that's what it's going to be like when my day comes. That, you know, great cloud of witnesses and all these guys that we've read about in the scriptures, like the Apostle Paul and Peter, my papa, Jerry Howerton, my great grandfather, all these guys that knew Jesus before me, like the scripture says they're literally waiting on you. And when your day comes and we're finished running what I hope is a good race, that passage says like they're right there and they're like, that's amazing.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

So I just like getting these little mental images that's like, okay, man, that helps me. That's what it's going to be like. What you got, Paul?

[C]

Well, no, I was also just, I mean the encouraging thing of just people and fellow Christians just cheering us on. But then also sometimes what I think about is that you're also like, when we stand before Christ, it'll be the first time that I get to see him face to face and I'll never have to not see him again. Yeah, but, and this is, I think should drive urgency into the heart of every believer in Christ. For unbelievers, it'll be the first time they ever see Christ in the face and the last time.

[A]

That's right. That's a heavy.

[C]

And I think that's part of, part of us running a good race is using every moment and all the things that God has given us and stewarding it to see as many people come and join that race with us as we can.

[A]

That's right. Amen.

[C]

So that's good.

[A]

You know, it's interesting that you say that Paul, because that ties in. So that picture does a good job of illustrating the great cloud of witnesses. I'll tell you something else that Pastor Steve, my predecessor here at Lake Point told me. That passage also says, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. In other words, Carlos, there's a race marked out for you. ChatGPT There's a race marked out specifically for you, there's a race marked out for Janna, there's a race marked out for me. And for every podcast listener, there's like, a specific race that the Lord has marked out for you. And I will say, one of the temptations of Satan that I think is very prevalent is trying to get you focused on somebody else's race. So, like, this is another. You guys know I store, like, thousands of things in iPhone notes for sermon illustration stuff. This is another one that I saved years ago. Toss up that one from the 2016 Olympics. So, dude, this is. Dude, this is. Honestly, man, I saved this because I was watching the Olympics when this happened, and I was like. And honestly, I felt like the Lord brought this verse to my mind, and I was like, I never want this to be me. So this is Michael Phelps towards the end of his career, 2016 Olympics, and this was one of his final races. And what you got here is he won this race. It was like 0.01. It was like a millisecond that he won this race by. And what the reason that everybody freaked out about this is because look what his eyes are on the finish line. The other's guy, guys eyes are on him. The point is, winners focus on winning, losers focus on winners. So it's like, I do think sometimes what Satan wants you to do is like, if he can get you Carlos focused on Paul's race, or if he can get me focused on Pastor XYZ's race over in Arizona, it's like, then I'll get my eyes off of the race Jesus marked out for me.

[B]

That's good, man.

[A]

So I'll be honest. I'll be honest, man. Like, as a pastor, like, I wish I was as good of a preacher as Joe B. Martin. I wish I was as smart as John Tyson. I wish I was as good a leader as Ashley Wooldridge. These are pastors, but I'm not. But there's some things that I'm good at that God gave me to do. And what Satan wants to do is get me focused on those other dudes so that I won't run the race marked out for me. And what Pastor Steve told me when I first came is I was real nervous about following him. And I remember him saying in front of the elders one time as he was like, hey, Josh, here's the deal. You will make a terrible second. Steve, you'll make a great first.

[C]

Josh, that's good.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

And so, man, I just say for everybody, like, run the race marked out for you.

[B]

That's great. In my home gym, by the way, I love that you're showing some of these, like Olympic. I love to see, you know, when you look at somebody performing at their best level, I have different sticky notes or posters in my home gym to kind of remind me I'm a visual person. So I need to see things to be reminded. And one of the things I have is says, there's a note that says Olympic athletes live a different lifestyle. And so for me, when I see somebody like a LeBron James, like a Steph Curry, competing at such a high level and the training that they go through, you know, all the diet, all the different disciplines that they have, it's just a good reminder again, as Christians, like you have a raise that you're called to do. And so if you want to compete, when you look at these athletes, like there's so many things that they could do, they're free to do, but not for them, not for them. Like you, you are called to a specific raise that God has given you. And there, there might be some things that when you look at other people and like they do it and it's okay for them, yes, it might be okay for them, but it's not OK for you because you have been called to something greater. And so again, it's such a good reminder of, you know, discipline, consistency, going through pain and suffering as well, training. The Bible speaks all about this all over the New Testament and it's such a great reminder again when you see.

[A]

These guys, it says it in this passage. So like literally right here. So the theme verse of this whole series run to win is 1 Corinthians 9:24. Do you not know that in a race all runners compete, but only one receives the prize? But run that you may obtain it. Some translations literally say, so run to win. That's where we got the thing. The next verses say exactly what you just said. Here's, here's verse 25. Every athlete exercises self control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath. But we in imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly. I do not box as one beating the air, but I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others, I myself should be disqualified.

[C]

That reminds me of my favorite quotes ever. A guy named Jim Elliott. If you don't know his story, by the way, just people should go look that up. And it's just incredible. Classic quote from him and it says, he is no fool who gives up what he cannot Keep to gain what he cannot lose.

[A]

Love.

[D]

That.

[C]

It's like the idea of, hey, whatever is holding us back, whether that's a sin or even just a thing that is holding you back from a deeper intimacy with Jesus and chasing after him. Give it up for the sake of what you will never lose. Love it.

[B]

He also said. Didn't he say to God made me fast?

[A]

No, no, no, that's. That was. Bro. That's a great. That's Cherry.

[B]

That's right. That's right. There you go.

[C]

Have you ever seen that?

[B]

I have seen it because I read.

[A]

To Fire, but not Tombstone.

[B]

That's correct.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

I saw it because I read the book from Eric Metaxas where it's Seven Great Men. I think he was one of them.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

That's right. That's right.

[C]

That's a great book.

[B]

Anyways.

[A]

But yeah, by the way, Metaxas gave us a shout out. We had a Lake Point member who was at a deal with Metaxas this week and texted me and Metaxas was giving a shout out.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Actually, he mentioned the podcast. Kind of cool.

[B]

It's a great outfit. I didn't know that. That's great, huh? Anyways, so.

[A]

Yes, I'm on Judgment. Were you going to say something, Paul, about. Yeah. Do we have time.

[C]

Do you think we have time this week to do it?

[A]

Let's see how fast you can do it. She bought a book she called C. Wow. Hey, just talk about Final Judgment in two minutes.

[B]

Oh, he's got plenty to say.

[C]

So do you want me to contrast Dispensational Covenant or just really talk about the two? Maybe save that for another time. And really hit between the idea between the two different kinds of judgment?

[A]

Well, I go over that a little bit and I hit that a little bit in the sermon. What things? What are our options here? How about this?

[C]

How about this?

[A]

What we'll do.

[C]

And then you can stop me at any time if you think this is going to go too long. But really, all Christians agree that there are really two types of judgment for believers.

[A]

Can I explain what you're about to do?

[C]

Yeah, please.

[A]

Okay, here's what. I asked Paul to do this because some people, when they heard the sermon, one of the hard. Let me tell you, like, one of the hardest parts about being a preacher is especially because we, you know, it's a larger church and we have a lot of people listen to our stuff. I'll know when I'm preaching a sermon. Okay. There's a There's a little controversy around this view versus that view, but I don't have time to go into that in a sermon. And Joe Plummer, I'm just trying to teach him about Jesus. He doesn't care about the covenant theological framework and the dispensational theological framework and how that adds a little nuance to the two types of he doesn't care. So it's like one of the hardest parts of the preacher is like, okay, I know when I say this, 4% of the Bible nerds are going to be like, but what about. Yeah, so we're going to deal with, but what about right here? So here's what Paul's about to do is the two primary ways to read the Bible are what's called a covenant theological framework that views the Bible as one covenant manifesting itself in different ways, but it's all one covenant. And the dispensational theology really views the Bible as a series of very different covenants and epics where God is relating to people very differently. So and that plays itself out with regard to judgment differently.

[B]

And by the way, when you say the word covenant, for the people that are not familiar, you just mean a type of relationship with God.

[A]

Yes, covenant is. That's. So covenant is the same word that we get testament from. It means contract, agreement. Testament and covenant are all coterminous. They all mean the same thing. So it's kind of like in the same way that if I have a contract with you, that's agree, that's an agreement about how we're going to relate to each other. So when we say covenant, God's making an agreement about how he's going to relate to humankind. Now real quick, you talk about two.

[C]

Views, we'll make this fast. In terms of what, though, I think it's important to start with where we all agree as Christians, there's really two types of judgments for those who are in Christ. For Christians, our judgment is one of commendation. It's one of where we get to stand before God. He says, well done, good and faithful servant. And then Scripture indicates is something that a lot of people actually don't know. Varying degrees of reward based on our life of faithfulness and fruitfulness in this life with what he has given us. So our judgment will be one of commendation. That's the idea of the Bema seat judgment, because the Bema seat was a place where actually with Olympic style events, it was a place for victors, it was not a place for bad judgment. So but for those who are not in Christ. For unbelievers, it's one of condemnation. So for believers, it's commendation. For unbelievers, it's condemnation. It's for a place of punishment. So that's what we all agree on. But where we do disagree on is the timing of those things. Probably easiest to actually go with dispensational first, because it's probably the more complicated. We actually have a chart. Can't do dispensational or really any kind of things like this without a chart, at least to help us. If you're listening to this, go watch it later or Google dispensational charts and have fun when you do that, because there are a ton of them.

[A]

John Hagee would be proud.

[D]

Oh, love it.

[C]

All right. So there's actually multiple judgments in the dispensational framework of how they see things. Dispensationalists would have a very literal interpretation of end times or apocalyptic events described in the Old Testament or New Testament. And based on that, they have a different timeline. Right now we're in the church age, but eventually there's going to be a resurrection of believers and then a rapture of believers. At that time, there will be a judgment of Christians in the church. So dispens. Dispensationists would believe, if you're looking at this chart, that when believers are raptured to be with Christ for seven years, that that is when the Bayma seat judgment will happen at some point in those seven years. And that's where you'll get the commendation of Christians and varying rewards. During that time of tribulation, there'll be a judgment of Israel. So during the tribulation, Israel will be purged of unbelief and they'll be restored to belief.

[A]

So that's where Romans 9:11, when it talks about, quote, all Israel will be saved. That's when dispensationalists think a massive revival will take place among Jewish people.

[C]

Bingo. And that's also where dispensation would point to Matthew 25 of the sheep and the goats. That is actually based on how the nations treat. I'm sorry, this is actually the next judgment at the judgment of Israel. The judgment of the nations, which is in Matthew 25, is based on then how the nations treat Israel. So during this time, Israel is restored. But then the next judgment, the third judgment, the judgment of the nations, is based in Matthew 25 on how those nations then treat Israel. And there'll be a final judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne judgment, which is in Revelation 20.

[B]

Where are you right now?

[C]

Yeah, so right now. So during the tribulation, that will be the judgment on Israel. Then when Christ comes back, you can kind of see where the arrows come back. Down arrows, the down arrow, that is where the judgment of the nations will happen. And that will be basically where Christ that judges the nations based on how they treated Israel during the tribulation. Then we'll go into the millennium thousand year reign of Christ. And then when you see that chair, that is the final judgment, the great white throne judgment, but judgment specifically of unbelievers and unbelievers. And really the judgment is based simply on what did you do with Jesus Christ. So you have multiple judgments based on their timeline. Covenant theology really sees the apocalyptic and prophetic elements in the Bible to be way more symbolic than literal. And they would collapse it into one singular judgment of unbelievers and believers at the same time.

[A]

Now, the two different types of judgments still happen, but they happen at the same time. In a covenant theological framework, they differentiate.

[C]

The type of judgment but not the timing of the judgment. And so what they would point to.

[A]

You chart for that.

[C]

I don't have a chart for that one. Just because it all happens at one time. Next time I'll bring that chart in. Plus, I was just trying to say it'd just be like dot, there's just a chair. There's just a chair. It all happens at one place.

[A]

That is cool.

[C]

But to give you an idea of where they would point to, like you got Revelation 11:18. The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets, the saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth. So they would say, hey, what passage was that? That's Revelation 11:18. And then most covenant, most those who are more covenant based would also then see. That would pretty much be mirrored in Revelation 20 where it talks about, I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. And the dead were judged according to what they had done. But they would see those as the two of the same things. So you have both the righteous and the unrighteous being judged at the same time. But again, just remember where we all agree is that one judgment for believers is for commendation, it's not condemnation. But then for unbelievers, it would be for condemnation. Does that, that, that do it. Get it done fast.

[A]

I'll add this. You touched on it. And this is another Thing I, I wish I had time to mess with in the sermon that, that there's degrees of reward for Christians in heaven. So not everybody will experience heaven in the same way. That's based on how we live. And conversely, degrees of punishment for people in hell. Not everyone will experience hell the same way. So I will just say, and we don't have time to this, someday we really should do a whole podcast on hell Gehenna, all the afterlife stuff. But for, for people who have ever wondered, like, man, like, so you got this morally good dude that really tried to help people while he was alive, but he didn't believe in Jesus. So I know he's not making it into heaven. But then you also got Hitler and Pol Pot and, you know, you know, Patriots fans and all the people. These people. That's a joke. You got all these people and they're, you know, they're much worse. And it's like, man, it doesn't feel fair that actually it's very fair because the Bible teaches that different degrees of punishment in hell. I'm going to give you a couple passages. So Romans 2 says, for all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. So in other words, it's alluding to the fact that people will be judged based on the amount of knowledge that they had. So you get this here. This is. I'll give two more real quick. Jesus tells a parable about servants in Luke chapter 12. And he's talking about judgment. And he says, and that servant who knew his master's will but didn't get ready or act according to his will will receive a severe beating. But the one who didn't know and then did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. So if you've ever wondered like, and I know the word beating is intense, but hell is intense.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

If you've ever wondered, like, dude, what about people who, like, they never read the Bible and they didn't know what they were and weren't supposed to do. And Jesus saying, well, like, God will actually factor all of that into account because God is good, just and fair. And then it says everyone to whom much was given, of him, much will be required, and of him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand more. Last one, I want to say, and then let's move on. This one honestly worries me. For the United States of America, I'll be very, I'll be very, very honest. So Matthew 11, Jesus is leaving these two cities, Chorazin and Bethsaida, if you go read your Gospels, lot of people miss this. He does a disproportionate amount of supernatural healing and work in these two areas. Coraz in a basa. But in general, they don't believe him. So then as he leaves, he says he shakes the dust off his feet. By the way, a lot of Christians don't know this. The reason that they shake the dust off their feet in the Bible, why Jesus says this is when they do that, he's saying, judgment will come on this city because of your unbelief. I don't even want to have a speck of dust from this city on my sandals because judgment will fall on every speck of dust. So when they do that in the Bible, that's what they're. They're alluding to future judgment. So he does that, and then he says, what are you, Chorazin? What are you, Bethsaida? For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which were two really evil places in the Old Testament, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, listen to this. It will be more bearable on the Day of Judgment for Tyre and Sidon, who, by the way, were much more overtly wicked than Chorazin and Bethsaida. It will be more bearable on the Day of Judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? Will you be brought down to Hades? For if the mighty works done in you have been done in Sodom, So this. Obviously, we know the story of Sodom. It would have remained until this day. In other words, Jesus saying these, you know, perverse, degenerate people, he's gone. I knew their hearts. They. They would have repented if they saw what you saw. And then he says, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable for Sodom on the Day of Judgment than for you. That passage honestly makes me shudder for the United States of America, because in the history of the world, arguably, no nation has ever been exposed to more spiritual light and truth than the United States of America. And we have turned our back on the living go and wandered into degeneracy and spit in his face. When I read that passage, I genuinely shudder that the living Lord Jesus from heaven is saying, woe to you, United States of America. Because if anybody else had seen what you would have seen, they would have repented as a nation and come to me. So take that to heart.

[C]

Well, that's what. We confuse proximity to Jesus with intimacy with Jesus. And those are two very different things. And I think if you're in the United States, it's like all proximity to Jesus, but it's so different than actual intimacy with Jesus. I think I'd say one more thing. This actually, I think will transition. I think we want to get to the President Trump clips is that if you're listening, they're like, wait a second, I thought we were all saved by grace. We talk about varying degrees of reward. I thought we were all saved by grace. We are the gospel. The gospel of grace is opposed to earning, but not to effort. In fact, I would actually say the gospel. God's grace works in us Grace driven effort. Where you see this so clearly is in First Corinthians 15, where Paul says, I was the worst of sinners, yet the grace of God made me what I am. And it was not without effect. I worked harder than all of them, which, by the way, he's referring to the apostles there, which is awesome.

[A]

Hey, run to win, bro.

[B]

I work harder than everybody else.

[C]

But then he says, yet it was not I, but the grace of God that was in me. And so, like, no amount of earning will ever get you into heaven, but grace driven effort will determine the amount of rewards you will receive in heaven. And so I think that's even maybe a distinction that we, if we could have a conversation with President Trump that we'll get into in a minute, maybe that was something that we would help him with.

[A]

Well, and honestly, that's what this whole series about. So week one of the series was the fact that there are judgment is coming. And here's how it's going to work. The last three weeks of the series are what does the Bible say about how to store up treasures in heaven and receive reward? That's the rest of the series. So we'll get there.

[B]

Let's go, man. Well, we got a clip of President Trump right now. Did you want to preface it?

[A]

Yeah, let me, let me do this. Because this is honestly, this is like really spiritually significant, in my opinion. Okay, so if you've been paying attention, President Trump, really for the last, like, I'd say about 18 months, he has talked off and on pretty candidly about heaven. If you go back when he was talking about the Ukraine, he was originally talking about Ukraine war stuff. He kind of was wondering, like, man, you know, I think this may get me in talking about heaven. Then there was a later eclipse where it kind of sounds like somebody around him, spiritual advisors, somebody may have been like, hey, so, like, that's not how it works. And I want to talk about that here in a second. And then so later you hear a clip where he talks about, man, I think I might be kind of the low man on the totem pole on the heaven line. And then this week he was flying back from accomplishing, I think either flying to or flying back from accomplishing the peace deal between Israel, Hamas and Palestine. And honestly, man, this was one of the most emotionally gut wrenching things I've ever seen for him. But I'm also hopeful. So let's do check this clip out and then I'll probably pause this one time and say a couple things real quick. And then let's go. So this is Trump, President Trump on, on Air Force One, just shooting from the hip, answering questions. You had talked a couple weeks ago.

[D]

You were doing an interview and you.

[A]

Talked about how you hope to end the war in Ukraine because it might help you get into heaven. How does, how does this help? Does this help? I mean, you know, I'm being a little cute. I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven. Okay, I really can't pause. Okay, first, I just want to. We're going to watch the whole clip here in a second, but I'll pause this. First of all, I want to say it is a wonderful and good thing to have a president that cares about heaven. Like, this is actually a bigger deal than I think people will realize. So one thing that I think we might say, and then we're gonna go back this clip, is that the biblical category to potentially put President Trump in, only the Lord Knows His Heart. And I'm gonna say a few things that may add a little nuance to this here in a second. The biblical category to put President Trump in might be the category of God fearer. So if you, if you go read the New Testament, there's actually three categories of people. You got the, well, in one sense you have Christians and then you have the New Testament also sometimes call them Gentiles. And it's kind of a stand in word for unbelievers. I'm being really rough with categorizations here. And then you kind of have this middle category that the New Testament mentions. I think it's four or five times. And it calls them God fearers. And who God fearers were is. They were, they were Gentiles who had not converted to either Judaism or Christianity, but they cared about the afterlife and they respected the moral code of Judaism. And so they were kind of these people that were like, they were working hard to try to be moral and do good things because they were like, it's kind of this vibe of like, well, man, dude, you know, I want to honor Big Man Upstairs. Like, that's kind of like your God fearer. And what's interesting is in the New Testament, those are a lot of the first people that get saved if you read the Book of Acts. Okay, now, this is really significant for a couple reasons, but I want to show you something. I want to put. I think we might want to put President Trump in the category of God Fear. Now, what I do want to preface is saying is no one here is saying. And he would not say, in fact, he has acknowledged he is. You're going to see it in the clip. He is acknowledging the fact that he has not lived the type of life that would make him, like, a moral exemplar. That's not what we are saying, and that's not what he's saying. But it is very obvious something is happening in his heart that is making him want to honor whatever, you know, the big man upstairs. So I'm going to give you some Trinity. I'm going to rifle through some of those pics I sent real quick. So, like, if you are paying attention to the Trump presidency so far, it's honestly a little historically unique. He's overtly trying to do things that are good, not for religion in general. He's not doing the normal, like, sorry about that, but not this. The interfaith thing that they typically do. Like, he's very clearly trying to do things that are good for Christianity and overtly Christian. Let me just rifle through some of those real quick. Trinity. So you got. This is from a speech very early on. When faith gets weaker, our country seems to get weaker. When faith gets stronger, good things happen for our country. By the way, that's very, very true. Whenever God gets bigger in people's hearts, government can be smaller. And when government. When God gets smaller, the government has to be bigger. And there's reasons for that. Under the Trump administration, we're defending our rights and restoring our identity as one nation under God. Go to the next one. The White House will not celebrate or recognize Pride Month this year. That came in June. That was a big deal. Obviously, last Pride Month, the whole White House was lit up with the. The rainbow flag thing. Go to the next one. This. This one absolutely cracked me up. The New York Times. This was like, a very scary headline for them. Christianity in the White House. President Trump has significantly expanded the power and influence of conservative Christians in the government. Oh, it's very.

[B]

Then the Christians are like, yay.

[A]

Cool. Is that bad?

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Okay, keep going. Go to the next one. Let us protect religious liberty, including for the most persecuted religion on the planet today. It's called Christianity. By the way, there's some. I've had a limited opportunity to work a little bit with the White House during this administration. And just from some interesting conversation behind the scenes, what I do know is that, like, President Trump is, like, actively, when he meets with foreign leaders, like, actively asking them if it's a country in which persecution is happening. He is asking foreign leaders off record. What, like, using his influence to stop it.

[C]

So you.

[A]

You can see that right here. Let's go to the next one. We have gathered at the Pentagon. This is like, from a White House actual X account. We have gathered at the Pentagon for a monthly worship service. We are reminded that we are one nation under God. Pete Hegseth is a very outspoken, genuine, Bible believing Christian. They're, like, doing prayer services at the Pentagon. You got that? Is that the last one where we got one more? Yeah. And then obviously this is what, like, the White House official X account. They're like, consistently, like, tweeting actual Christian Bible verses on Easter. He is not here. He has risen just as he said. Matthew 28:6. Is that it? Trinity or. Okay, yeah. And then you got this last one. This was like an official press release from the first family. This Holy Week millennia. And I join in prayer with Christians celebrating the crucifixion resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the living son of God, who conquered death, freed us from sin, and has unlocked the gates of heaven for all of humanity. Like, bro, it's like, it's amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think you might put him in the category of God fearer, where it's like, hey, man, there's something true. There's clearly, like, believes in God, believes in not just a God, but the Christian God. But then you still got them going. I don't think I'm gonna make it into heaven. I want to talk about that here in a second. The reason this is going too long, so let me. Let me. Rabbit, let me put a ball on this. The reason it's a big deal to have government leaders that acknowledge the reality of God, heaven, and therefore coming judgment. That's a big deal is because when you subtract God from a worldview or a society. The highest power left is the government. So in the absence of God, the government becomes God. And that's how you get, like, extremely terrible things throughout human history. So when the government starts to think we're the highest power, government becomes God. That's how you get governments going. Hey, we'll provide for you, we'll protect you. We'll decide what's right and wrong. We'll define things like gender and when life begins and what marriage is. Actually, we're the ones who give you rights. Your rights don't come from a creator. They come from a government. By the way, if your rights come from a government, then the government can take them away. That's a bad idea. That's why you get governments that need mass surveillance. Well, God is omniscient, and now we're God, so we need to be omniscient. That's why you get governments that very frankly, all of the governments that veer into heavy ideological socialism, they're almost all secular atheistic governments. Why? Because subtract God, the government becomes God. Well, God is omnipotent, so the government needs to be omnipotent now to control outcomes. So I just want to point this out. It's a big deal, which is interesting because the same people that laugh at the idea of an all powerful, all good God, they think if the government became all powerful, it'd be all good. So it's just, you can just see. This is why secularism is so dangerous. Because if there is no higher power over the government, there's no authority to which people can appeal if the government goes wrong. So it's a very, very good thing to have government leaders going there. There is a big man upstairs and I need to try to do something to please him.

[C]

If you don't believe that, just go Google the governments of Mao and Stalin and how many of their own people they killed.

[A]

Bro.

[C]

Just. That's all I'll say is like, what they did is unimaginably evil. And it's because it was based on a form of government that didn't believe any God that could keep them accountable for what they did did.

[B]

Josh, I've heard you talk about Christian nationalism and obviously bonus pod last week. That's right, that's right. By the way, go check it out. I've never, I haven't heard you say this before, and that makes a lot of sense, man. If you have, you need a deity or a God at the top. Do you want that to be the government, or do you want it to be the creator? Do you want it to be God? That like you said, if something goes off, you can appeal to a higher authority.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's actually like, better, bro.

[A]

It's a big deal.

[B]

Infinitely better.

[A]

It's a big deal if there is. So here's the thing, man. This is not what I want to talk about here. But, but like, whenever you talk about Christian nationalism, what immediately people do is they're like, oh, you guys want a theocracy? Big scary word, theocracy. You know, first of all, I'll be like, define what you mean by that. But honestly, in one sense, my response to that is every government is a theocracy. The question is, who's Theo? For instance, in a secular democracy, the people are Theo, the people are God. It's just might makes right whatever the will of the people is. If the majority of the people think slavery is fine, well, sorry, they're the Theo. And the nation is theocracy. And if more people want slavery than don't, well, there is no higher power above the people. So that's what we're going to do. You know, obviously in Islamic governments, we know Allah is the theo. So the thing is theocracy. Well, every government's a theocracy. You just go on, who's the God over the government? If we acknowledge there's a God over the government, then the question is, what's his name? What's his name? Because different gods will bequeath different rights. So yeah, to your point, it's a very, very, very, very big deal that a nation believes in and the government believes in a higher power over the government. So there's an authority to which you can appeal to keep the government in check when they do unrighteous things.

[C]

That's good, right?

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Okay, now actually, Trinity, I want you to start from the very beginning of the clip and we'll do the whole thing and then let's talk about it here. Here you had talked a couple weeks.

[D]

Ago, you were doing an interview and.

[A]

You talked about how you hope to end the war in Ukraine because it might help you get into heaven. How does, how does this help? Does this help? I mean, you know, I'm being a little cute. I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven. Okay. I really don't. I think, I think I'm not maybe heaven bound. I may be in heaven right now as we fly at Air Force One. I'm not sure I personally, I'm going to be able to make heaven, but I've made life a lot better for a lot of people. And yeah, there it is. Yeah, that's good, man. Bro, that's honestly like it. You can, I feel like you can hear a little emotion in him, which is a little rare because he's a strong leader and he's a.

[B]

He also, like, he's a little tired too, man. I've tried, like I've, yeah, I'm trying to do all these things, but I don't know that I'll be able to make it.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Let me, let me say a few things here and then I'd love to hear you guys thoughts. Number one, I do want to say he, he might be saved and I want to talk about why. Why I think that, you know, first of all, yeah, this, I've had been able to have some conversations with people who, who work, you know, directly with the President. And I do know from talking to those people, he has people around him who have for years been clearly sharing the gospel with the President, like very, very clearly. So he does have that. I do know that after the assassination attempt, as would happen with most people who had a near death experience, he had a significant moment of spiritual reflection in his life. And I do know that he prayed with someone in a very real way about his relationship with God. I do know that. I also know, and this is public knowledge after that. It's kind of interesting. At Mar a Lago, he put a bunch of angels, I think it was a painting on the ceiling of some of the rooms in Mar A Lago. And then right now, I think if you go on the Oval Office, if I understand it correctly, there's like an angel that he put over the door of the Oval Office because he's acknowledging man in some way. Providence, Heaven was looking after me there. And I do just want to say this, like that's the kind of thing that a baby Christian who's also a billionaire would do. You know, it's like that, you know, and I do know this. Do you guys. Trinity, did I send you that screenshot of where Carolyn Levitt, the White House press secretary, she was doing that. Do you see? No, not that one. Actually you can show that one. That's, that's President Trump. That's, that's. Somebody sent that to me personally. That was, he asked. So he asks for prayer from people who are around him apparently like very frequently. But do you have the other one? You don't have that one? Dang. I didn't send it to you. All right, so here's all I'll say on this is. What you'll see is when President Trump says stuff like he does in that clip, what you immediately see is the reaction online is there's a bunch of, like, theology nerds who, you know, have been in Seminary for 50 years that are like, see, he's not. This guy doesn't know anything and he's. And they jump all over it. As a pastor, it's like what people don't understand about President Trump is he talks about Christianity like a normal blue collar dude that didn't grow up around Christianity. So, like, when he says stuff like we're trying to save Christianity and people jump all over him. He's. He's talking about, he's just talking like a normal dude that, you know, he didn't go to Southern Seminary. Yeah. He hasn't read Herman Bavink. You know, it's like he's a force of nature, that leader that's been building stuff and leading the country and that kind of thing. So it's like the reason I say that is I just want to caveat. Like when I'm in the lobby and I'm praying with normal blue collar dudes that didn't grow up around Christianity get saved. Like, they're saying the F word in their salvation prayer. Like, actually, that's a real thing. Or people at our mesquite campus are putting weed in the offering basket. And, and you know, the theology nerd online would be like, oh, look at these degenerate. They're clearly not saved. Honestly, I think the Lord is so pleased. I think he's going, man, in the way that they know how with their best understanding, they're trying to honor me. And so I do just want to point out, like, you know, like your grandpa that fought in Vietnam and lives on an IV of Bud Light and he thinks dip is a food group. Like, when that guy gets saved, he doesn't start singing Be Thou My Vision in his quiet time and, you know, quoting John Calvin.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, he's still gonna have some kinks.

[C]

To get worked out sometimes. The example I've given this, there's an old show called the Biggest Loser, where people would start out the show weighing a lot of weight. I mean, it was like five, six hundred pounds sometimes. And I began to think, what happened if I actually tuned into the show in the middle of their transformation? And I would be like, oh, man, there's all these people that weigh three or 400 pounds. Oh, my goodness. They're so unhealthy. They need to get their act together and get in shape. And what I don't actually realize is I am stepping into the middle of their transformation story and that, yes, they have a long way to go, but also, I don't actually am aware of maybe how far God has brought them.

[B]

You should have seen him before.

[C]

Yeah, you should have seen him before. So I just.

[A]

It just.

[C]

We should be very careful not to make snap judgments when actually I might have caught someone in the middle of their transformation story. So just be. Really need to be a little careful.

[B]

Sorry.

[C]

Keep going. Just wanted to.

[A]

No, that's a good point in. So here's. Here's what I will say. Let me tell you why, if he's not saved, why I actually have a lot of hope. I think. I believe he. I believe he will be. Here's why I'm going to say this, because when you read your New Testament, the first step to getting into heaven is admitting you can't. And in fact, when you read the New Testament, I'm not sure you read about anybody in the New Testament who gets to the point of clear admission, I am not worthy to be accepted by the Father that doesn't eventually make it to the Father through Christ. So the analogy for this, obviously, Jesus tells the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector, and the pharisee, the religious dude, walks up and he's real proud, and he's like, real close to the altar. And God, thank you that I'm not like all these people. The tax collector can't get his act together. And I tithe the 10th of my mint dill and cumin, and I pray the prayers and I observe the Sabbath. And he's listening to his accomplishments about how he's really awesome, he deserves to get into heaven. And then the tax collector, big sinner, walks up and he won't even look at the altar. He falls on his knees, tears his shirt in half, which was a sign of, you know, degradation. And he just. He can't pray a prayer. He just says, you know, God, be merciful to me, a sinner. In other words, he's admitting I don't deserve. And Jesus says, I tell you, this man, rather than the first, went home justified. Now here's why, when I watch that clip, I'm like, if he's not saved, I'm really hopeful the Lord's going to save that man. Because if you know anything about that guy and you've been paying attention, I've never before ever seen him admit anything he can't do. That's the first clip I've ever seen where here he is for the first time in his life going, there's one thing I've realized I can't do do. I can't get into heaven on my own. So Jesus, remember what Jesus said? Jesus said, unless you become like one of these little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. And when he said that, some people think, oh, that means you got to be innocent, like little kids. Well, if you say you never had little kids, little kids are not innocent. When Jesus said that, he was wasn't talking about innocence, he was talking about dependence. Jesus, what he was saying is, hey, it's not that good people are in and bad people are out, and it's not that religious people are in and irreligious people are out. He was saying it's the humble that are in and the proud that are out. Kids are the ones that they just run up to their dad and there's like, they're just like, dad, like, can I have something? Because they know that when they ask, their dad's going to say yes. So when I see that clip, I'm like, the man who has otherworldly confidence he can do anything has discovered the one thing he cannot do on his own. And what I would say to that is, you are not far from the kingdom of God. Thoughts?

[B]

Yeah, man. I think you know Ephesians, chapter 2, verse 8 to 9. For it is by grace you have been saved. You nodded about the. Or you talk about this in a sermon. It is through faith, and this is not from yourself. It is a gift of God, a good father, not by works so that no one can boast. I think it's the, the final words of the Buddha were, strive on with diligence. Before he died, he said, hey, before I go, this is what you need to know. Like, keep trying. Basically, like, keep, keep working on it. The final words of Jesus on the cross. It is finished.

[C]

I think I've been sitting here listening. You know, it's, it's interesting because like I said, people will judge him for these comments, but actually he's reflecting what a large portion of the America and actually a large portion of evangelicals believe. 48% of Americans believe that by doing enough good works, you can get into heaven. 41% of evangelicals. And so I know that's a loaded term, but basically people who go to churches like Lake Point believe that if you do enough, you can get into Heaven. And so if you're listening, that's you I'm going to spend. If I had a time with Donald Trump, here's what I would tell him then therefore here's what I would tell you is that actually if we were, I was at President Trump, I think the problem is you actually don't understand just how serious your sin is and how bad of a situation you're in. But I'm like you, Donald, President Trump would be in a unique situation to understand it about man. The seriousness of our sin is related to the seriousness of who our sin is against. And so like if I commit assault, like right now, if we got in a fight and I got charged with assault with one of you guys, man, maybe spend a few weeks or a few months in prison and pay a small fine. But if I went up and I punched President Trump in the face, I'm probably gonna ticket to Guantanamo Bay.

[A]

You can get a bullet in your head, it's going to be much worse.

[B]

You might go to El Salvador's president as well.

[C]

Oh, goodness. Well, let me get back. So what changed was not the nature of what I did. What changed was the nature of who I did it against. And so when we sin against an infinite God, our sin is infinitely serious. And there's an infinite gap between us and God. And there is no amount of good works that I can do to ever bridge that infinite gap between gap. That's the bad news. But here's the good news, is that God has done everything he can to bridge that infinite gap with us. That God himself came down in flesh as Jesus Christ. He lived the perfect life we cannot live. So everywhere you have failed. If you're listening to this, Donald, President Trump, if he was listening to this, everywhere you failed, Jesus succeeded. And also wherever you failed, Jesus went to the cross and he bore the punishment for those sins so that he could reconcile you with himself. And then he was raised from the grave so that he could give life to all who would believe. And so the bad news is really bad. But it also makes the good news so good is that even though there's an infinite gap between us and God because we've committed sins that are infinitely offensive against him, he has bridged that through his Son, Jesus Christ. And then we can't unsin, but we can repent. And if we will repent and place our faith in Jesus alone to save us, he is faithful and just and will save us and forgive us.

[A]

Bro, here's what I got in my heart is what if what if he does that, he trusts you. What if President Trump trusts Jesus? Becomes the first president that I'm aware of in United States history to be converted while he's in office. And can you imagine, like, him getting baptized on the South Lawn? Like, can you imagine if our nation watched their leader humble himself before the living God? God give his life to Christ and have a nationally public baptism?

[B]

That'd be amazing, bro.

[A]

Come on. Do it again, Lord.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

Amen. Well, hey, we have Rich Froning coming up in just a second. Stay tuned. Well, hey, before we jump back in, I want to take a quick moment to tell you about something close to our heart here at Lake Point. It is something we call our annual missions offering. Every fall, we set aside a season of. Of radical generosity where 100% of what's given goes straight to missions. And this goes to help plant churches in some of America's hardest to reach cities, strengthening local churches around the world, meeting needs in our own communities, and even sending students to camp to encounter Jesus. And so here's what you need to know. Your giving fuels real stories of life change. And so to be a part of spreading God's love farther and faster than ever, text the word give to 20411 or visit LakePoint Church. Give a m O. Well, hey, Liffree family together, let's make this a season where our generosity moves the mission of Christ forward.

[A]

So we're here with Rich Ronning. What's up, Rich?

[D]

What's up?

[A]

Can we just continue the conversation we're having? Yeah, yeah, just a second.

[B]

What were you saying?

[A]

Wait.

[D]

I'm smaller than I look. No, smaller than you thought.

[A]

We're here with Rich Ronnie, who Carlos says is not that big.

[B]

That's. That. That's what I said before I met him in person.

[D]

1.

[B]

No, but we were talking.

[A]

Wait, wait. Stop talking for a second. I'm sorry. Just a second.

[D]

I need to explain, as professional athletes go.

[A]

Exactly. There you go.

[D]

Five, nine.

[B]

But that's not what I was saying.

[D]

£92.

[B]

I wasn't referring to your height.

[D]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I was mostly just talking about, like, you know, just kind of thickness. Yeah, because you've done CrossFit before.

[A]

Wait, hang on. Let me hit pause for people who don't know who we're talking to right now. Let me explain. So this is Rich Froning. So for. Our church knows this. There was, like, two years, Rich, and I told you before, there's like, two years where, like, I dabbled in CrossFit. I like it, Rich. Can I tell you my CrossFit joke.

[D]

What you got?

[A]

My CrossFit joke is how can you tell somebody does CrossFit, they're going to tell you.

[D]

I. It's so many of them.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

Don't worry, they'll tell you. Hey. Hey, Carlos.

[D]

You know, it's almost like vegans, vegetarians, same thing, right?

[A]

Carlos, do you. I'll do another one. Carlos, do you know how to tell if somebody drives a Tesla?

[B]

They're going to let you know. Don't worry. It's true. It's true.

[A]

Carlos has got Tesla.

[D]

I just finished Elon's book, autobiography, the biography that he approved.

[A]

The Masterson.

[D]

Isaacson, Isaacson, Isaacson. It was interesting. I'm. I'm a big biography, Weird American love. I have a weird American history. And so I'm a presidential biography. So I'm up to grant rant. And I took a hiatus. I didn't know anything about Elon. And then this last election cycle, of course, like, I gotta know. What. What is the deal? And I didn't know any of it, so I finished that book.

[A]

Dude, I heard it was hijacked. It was great.

[D]

It was. Dude, is. Is next level, right? And the genius. Genius and loves to throw. He thrives during chaos, right?

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And surges is what he calls them.

[A]

That's what he calls it. He calls it a surge.

[D]

Well, that's what everybody outside of it calls it, where he's just like, okay, we're gonna launch this rocket in two months. And he'll walk in and be like, we're gonna do it in three days.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And people are like, that's not possible. He's like, we're going to make it possible, Carlos.

[A]

I'm going to start running the church like that.

[B]

Do you not do that already?

[C]

Do I do that?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no.

[C]

Absolutely not.

[D]

Absolutely not.

[A]

Hey, so wait, wait. Let me know. You were the intro. So here's we're doing. Obviously, we started the sermon series run to win this week. And like, here's what, like the whole tag of the series, Rich. We're doing the whole tag of the series is this passage from 1 Corinthians 9. It's like, hey, man, everybody runs, but some people run so as to win the prize. And then it's like, hey, man, that's how we should. That's how a man of God and a woman. Woman of God approach following Jesus, their discipleship. So I'll shoot you really straight. One of the great things about having a podcast is I can Use it to just hang out with people I've always wanted to hang out with. So if people. For people who don't know, rich has won CrossFit Games, world's fittest man, one individual four times.

[D]

Yeah. Won the CrossFit Games four times as.

[A]

An individual, but then one team six times.

[D]

Six times. Then when there's two second places in there, we don't. They don't really talk about anymore.

[A]

If somebody want. I don't have the clip and I'm not going to make you relive it, but if somebody wants to have their heart ripped out, just go YouTube search. Rich fronting 2010. Is that the.

[D]

Oh, yeah, YouTube kids still ask me about it. My kids PE teacher I went to college with and they were climbing the cargo net and lakeland. My oldest, she's now 11. She was probably 7 at the time. Walks home, comes home, she goes, dad, dad, Coach Amy told me to ask you about climbing a rope.

[A]

I was like, that's savage.

[D]

Yeah, well, we're good friends, so it was acceptable. But yeah, okay, it's. I man, I wouldn't be where I am, wouldn't be the man I am today without that instance. So not off limits whatsoever. But yes, I got second because my dad, we had a rope in the barn growing up.

[A]

We.

[D]

I grew up not on a farm, like a working farm, but we had chores made up. Chores that my parents would make us do that I hated now appreciate. But we had a rope in the barn and I'd try to climb it. It using my feet. You know, my dad's like, don't do that. That's for sissies. You know, and turns out kind of need those after 14 events through talking about Carlos.

[B]

Yeah, I saw the video.

[A]

You saw the clip. So for people who don't know, you really should. Should go YouTube search. How many views does it have? Do you know?

[D]

It's got to be a couple mil or a million.

[A]

It's over a million. Yeah. So that it's a fall and we don't have to get into this. We want to talk about Jesus real quick. But the. You were. If. Tell me if I getting this wrong. Wrong. You were essentially running away.

[D]

I had. I would have. If I would have or at least placed decent enough in this event, I could have won three points, which is three places throughout the whole weekend.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. Back then it was similar to golf. Opposite, but similar. Like if you finish first, you got 1.22 points. And so three places through the whole weekend is where I ended up losing.

[A]

This so all he had, I mean.

[D]

I mean, but here's the deal is like, like that set me on the road I am today. I wouldn't be. I wouldn't have followed Jesus as close as I do now. Like, that made me realize that earthly things only get you so far, right? And so, and you know, I call it God put the right people in my path. After that happened, you know, to me, that was a dark time. And I, like, you know, growing up, we talked a little bit about this, but, you know, playing baseball, I played a little bit of. I played high school baseball, was going to play in college, went to college, end up coming home. After I got into college baseball, had a girlfriend back home, and I was just like, nah. What came back, worked in a factory, we talked about flag football out there, did that for a while, was a firefighter for a while, and then did CrossFit. So I, you know, all these things were, you know, what I would say were my identity at the time. And then to have those things like, you don't think you're doing it in the moment. You know, I grew up in a faith background, had a really Catholic, my, My mom's side is Catholic, my dad's side was Catholic as well. Very strong female leadership or female faith influences. And so, yeah, I was in the Bible doing those things, but it wasn't like a, you know, I just actually had this realization a couple months ago of like, I, my dad is now super strong in his faith and we'll talk about it, but dudes were just different then, right? You just didn't talk about that. My grandpa went to church and was a part of the Catholic Church, but we didn't. I never had like, male faith influences.

[A]

And so, by the way, that's very common.

[D]

It really is. And I didn't think about it until as recently. And so backing up though, all my, my life I was, you know, trying to please people by whatever I was doing. And then CrossFit Games comes along and I'm like, sweet, I'm good at this. Let's do it. And then I get second. And it was a complete failure to me. And, and it was a good time. I had a good, you know, good group of dudes that were like, hey, you should look at, you know, let's. Let's do a men's Bible study. And we did it in Romans and man, it changed my life.

[A]

That was after the 2010 thing.

[D]

That was after 2010.

[A]

So again, if you go search it, he's essentially, basically, if you Climb that rope. Easy win.

[D]

Yeah, if I make at least I finished, I think a round. I think if I finished two rounds, which would have been six rope climbs that have been over.

[A]

Yeah. But then one next year.

[D]

One the next year, and the next three after that.

[A]

That's right. Yeah, I definitely throw that in.

[B]

And you got 10 on, on your belt, basically.

[D]

Yeah. 4 and 6. 4 and 6. 4 individual and then 16. Once I had my first daughter, I was like, man, I can't, can't, I can't serve two masters. Like, I'm obsessed. And I, I was doing it for the right reasons. 100. Like, I wanted to compete to glorify God. But then once I had my daughter, I was like, man, I can't obsess with what I'm doing and, and be a good father. And so good for you. That's when I stepped back.

[A]

Well, so I started following you like back when I was dabbling. And so to this day, I told, I told you this earlier when I go to a hotel sometimes and I'm like, dude, I want, I want a quick, yeah, quick workout. Which by the way, I've read you don't like long workouts.

[D]

I've gotten better because now that we hunt a lot, like, I've started adding in some of those like just kind of grindy, slow type workouts just to, you know, be ready for the mountains. But no, I used to hate them. I was very.

[A]

Well, I'll still pull up some of your, like just body weight workouts. Anyway, I started following you way back then and then started getting some of the YouTube stuff, then followed you on Instagram. I love, by the way, really, I love the way you use your account. I want to talk about that in a second. And then we just, I don't know, somehow it was like either I saw.

[D]

One of mine, I saw one of your clips and I was like, man, just, just, I don't know why I was like, that's right, like, just like what you're, you're preaching here. We need more of it, you know, like not shying away from controversy because hey, all that Bible is for everybody at times. It, it shouldn't divide, but it does and, and people shy away from that. And man, I, I, I think I was just giving you some encouragement and you were like, yeah.

[A]

And so, well, it was like cool, cuz it's like this guy that I've been following for a while and I was like, oh man, dude. Took time to encourage me and bless me, man.

[D]

Yeah, man, I appreciate that.

[A]

So I want to talk about a few things. Number one, man, little. Little fun trip down memory lane here. Trinity. Can you. We got if so again, we're introducing people to Rich frowning. So go ahead and toss one of those pictures up there. Oh, no. You know you've seen that guy.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Rich Froning. I'm positive he's a descendant of an alien race.

[D]

His true or false? I would assume false, but I don't really know. You know.

[A]

And then. This is a good one.

[D]

Oh, yeah. My wife is a big Ryan Gosling fan. She loved this. And then.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

The first time I snatched 300 pounds. This is why my wife's incredible. She was like, why. Why do you need to put that much weight over your head? And I'm like, I guess that's why we're together. Because she could care.

[A]

She don't care. Hey, I'll just encourage every husband. Like, man, Rich Froning's wife thinks Ryan Gosling. Yes.

[D]

She loves the Notebook. That's her. Like, that was her guilty pleasure when we first. First. She loves the Notebook. And I'm just like, yeah, if you're a bird.

[B]

Did you ask somebody to do that?

[A]

Maybe Deleted scene from the Walking Dead Season 5.

[D]

That event was the. Yeah, that's called the triple threes. And I still catch flack for walking on that event.

[A]

Oh, so that's. You were literally walking. That's how to me.

[D]

I. I was overheated. Yeah. It was not good.

[A]

It's not good.

[D]

Yeah. I was barely alive.

[A]

And this is my favorite. That little like the old.

[D]

What is that thing, Right?

[A]

You got a little soul patch?

[D]

Little soul patch.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[D]

It was pre testosterone, you know, Pre puberty. Yeah. Heck yeah, man. That was. That was a hundred and probably. I think it was £150 at that time.

[A]

Look at that baby face.

[D]

Baby face.

[A]

You play? It's baseball days.

[D]

Yeah. Middle infield. Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

The record rates.

[D]

How much.

[B]

How much are you weighing now?

[D]

About 195ish. My weight doesn't fluctuate a ton. I even. I did leadville the last two years. The 100 mile mountain bike race. It's fun. You like mountain biking? At altitude, it's not a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every weekend.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Terrible.

[D]

I actually. I didn't lose as much weight as you would think. You know, I only got down to maybe 188. 190, something like that. So, man, my body just likes this weight, you know.

[A]

All right, well, I'm, you know, just to tease it me Me at least me and Rich and I may make Carlos. We're gonna do a little push up competition and I'm not joking. In a few minutes we'll see what happens. But I do want to talk about this Rich, just to help some of the, you know, people aren't sure, but especially, especially dudes. But everybody. So let me just like start. What's this? What's the short snapshot of like. Cuz I watched your sort of like evolution toward like very open about your faith. You are very like you leverage your platform for the glory of God of the. The message of gospel. Tell me the, like, tell me the quick story and then why you do that?

[D]

Yeah, I think quick story. I mean it is what I feel. I kind of gave you the, the high level. I grew up in a super strong faith family. Like we went to church regularly. You know, Catholic church, Presbyterian church, Baptist church. I would say I was saved. Made that decision when I was 13, but didn't live. You know, like if I went to. I, I read my Bible a lot. But it was like what, what, what applies to my situation. Santa Claus, God.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Lack of better terms. And, and so had that big failure. What I would call failure. Other people would be like, you got second place. Chill out dude. But growing up I was one of 25 first cousins or 25 boys on my mom's side. 32 of us. Even the girls were super fit and athletic and everything was a competition. Just. It's just what I grew up in and, and I, you know, loved competition. Right. That's just who I was and who I am. And so to have that thing kind of taken and, and it just made me realize how fleeting earthly things are. And and so luckily had really good friend Chip Donovan degree and just you know, started kind of loving on me. And like, like we did a Romans study and I was like man, let me go back and read like from Matthew on, right. And just read it straight through and man, it just, it kind of opened my eyes. I'm like man, I'm not living how Jesus calls us to live. And so that's when I got baptized again. I was baptized in the Catholic church when I was like infant. Yeah, what three months old? Something like that.

[A]

Do you mind me asking? Because first of all. Right decision. Yeah. But do you. What was your thought process behind. I'm. I'm getting baptized again. Again.

[D]

I wanted to make the decision. I feel like Jesus made the decision at 30. I want to make that decision for myself. Had a couple family members that were A little upset with that. And I was just like, I. That's what I feel like I'm called to do. I'm going to do it. And so that's when I got the tattoo. Galatians 6:14. Man, I never may, I never boast in anything except for the cross, the Lord Jesus Christ, which has been crucified to me and I of the world. You know, it was just. It's a constant reminder of, like, it doesn't matter what you do. Like, it's about. About him and don't get in it. And man, it's such a. It's. It's something that happens, right? Like, especially with the profession I'm in. You're always constantly like, you know, there's this people. There's always eyes on you. You're always being compared to so and so or, or whatever, man. It's. It doesn't matter, right? And I also hate the fact of people that are like, oh, you're a Christian, you should. You know, it's competition, you know, it makes you soft. I'm like, man, I'm. I'm still just the, the intensity of anger is still there as much, but it doesn't last as long. That's what I tell people. I'm like, I realize once I come down off the emotion because we're all emotional and I come off that emotion, man, that I'm like, all right, I'm okay. My identity is not in what just happened and I can let go of it. And some things better than others, you know, I'm still man. And that's why in that book, David, man, I. I connect with David so much because I want to be a man after God's own heart. And I'm screwed up, up. But I'm going to come back, right? And I try to come back. And man, there's a. A series. I don't know if you've ever read them. Day of War. Read them. Day of War. It's Cliff Graham and he took David's story and his men and he's. It's historical fiction, but dude, you talk about Speak to a man's heart. They're incredible.

[A]

Day of War.

[D]

Day of War. And he actually just re. Released them. But man, those books, I read those and I. After all that I read in 2011, I just started reading in 1st Samuel and I was like, man, man, this is awesome. Like, I just, you know, I was like, through the New Testament, I was like, let me go back to some Old Testament stuff. And I, for some reason Started first Samuel.

[A]

That guy like literally looks like you.

[D]

Make sure you get the new newer edition. So that's the, the one in the top. Your top left.

[A]

That guy.

[D]

But that's the top left. That's the new edition. So that the original one starts with Banaya in the pit and fighting and then he connects with David. But the new one is that the.

[A]

In a pit with a lion on a snowy day guy.

[D]

That's the, that's different guy. But Banaya is the guy that fought the line in the pit. And so, so the new version, he kind of blends it. And because there's. It's supposed to be a five book series, he's written three of them and he like blends it in to where Abby Athar is talking to Samuel or not Samuel, to Solomon about, hey, this is what happened to your dad. Let me tell you this story. You need to come back to, to God. And that's awesome. It's pretty cool. They're. And he's like, hey, it's historical fiction. He's like, I've taken the liberty. I've studied a lot of the era. Era. He's like, yeah, he's like, go back to the Bible for this stuff. But this is how. And he's an ex military guy. They're. He's good. He's good. I listened to. And we were talking about Leadville. I listened. I've read that book probably four times actually started it, the new version on the way here. And I listened to that whole book for the eight and a half hours I did Leadville two years ago. So that's awesome. It's good.

[A]

So these guys take you through this Romans, Bible study. This is like right after this big failure.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Well, quote unquote failure. Failure.

[D]

Failure to me, man.

[A]

Yeah. And then like, you know, just like practical nitty gritty, like what, what changes did you start making?

[D]

Yeah, I think it was, you know, actually instead of just, you know, going to where I needed to go, like actually picking up my Bible for a purpose, like, hey, let me read the story. Let me talk to other people about it, see what their perspective get different perspectives, dive into it. Versus just like, oh, let me take this verse. Oh, that didn't work for me. Today I'm going to do something else, you know, like I think it's continually coming back to that thing. I know, you know, I'm, I'm. I get in really good rhythms. Like if I'm on a schedule but of school and, and those types of things. I'm in the word every single day and vacation and those, you know, some path. Something happens, kids are in the car. I can't listen or do whatever I'm doing. I'm like, I'd miss a day or two. And I'm like, oh, that makes a big difference.

[A]

I feel it.

[D]

So it's. It's. It's palpable. It's real. Like, I can feel a difference when I'm not in it, bro.

[A]

I got a theory on this. A lot of the best disciples I've seen are also incredible athletes. And I have a theory on this that goes to this passage. So I'm going to come back to it, but I'm going to come back to that. All right, so you started doing this and anything else.

[D]

So just getting in a rhythm and then and talking to other people. That. Man, I. One thing I know is that if you surround yourself with people that know more than you, it's going to help you out. And so, like, I surrounded myself with some dudes that I knew knew the Bible, and I still do that. Like, we do a podcast into the Storm, and we.

[A]

I've listened to a few episodes, and.

[D]

We'Ve got a guy that. He's Next level. Like, my brain can't. Like that level. Dominant Dom is his name. We. But he's. He's awesome. We got a bunch of good dudes around there that, like, our. Our four pillars at Mayhem are faith, family, fitness, service. And when we say faith, I'm talking about Jesus. I'm not just saying, you know, faith.

[A]

Right.

[D]

And so I'm not afraid to say that. That, you know, I think it's. It's something that we're missing, and it's coming around in society.

[A]

It's cool to see, dude, tide is turning.

[D]

I know you keep ti. Is turning. And it. You see it, man. You see it in, you know, younger people coming up. You see it in mainstream places. And so it's awesome.

[A]

Is. Yeah.

[B]

Do people think that's weird, Rich? Because obviously you're super outspoken about your faith and. But you're also in different secular spaces or, you know.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think early on it was a little bit weird, and it was a little bit more timid to talk about it because, man, I. And I'm still like, I'm not a Bible scholar. Like, when you start talking about First Corinthians, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's Paul. Paul writing to the Corinthians. And I know a lot of the. And it comes to me. But if I'm like quote you a passage. I'm. It's not going to happen. I just. That's not how my brain operates. But I know now like in. Especially in the last couple months too, we. I've got a group of guys that we do a virtual Bible study. So it's just a men's. Men's, you know, we go through.

[A]

Cuz you're traveling.

[D]

We use the app through the word. Well, we're just all in different places and through the word and we'll, you know, listen to 10, 15 minute kind of of discussion about it and then the verse and then we have our own group group me that we kind of discuss and talk about. So like right now, James.

[A]

So it's like a 15, 10, 15 minute like explanation of the past.

[D]

Exactly. Because my brain, you know, I'll read.

[A]

Something, I'm like, what does that mean?

[D]

You know, and so it's pretty cool. It's called through the word Simple. Real good app. You know, I listen to it with the kids on the way to the school in the mornings at. Sometimes I have to turn it off because I'm like, you guys are fighting too much. I can't hear it. You know, like some days they're all. In some days they're not. You know, like it's kids. We.

[A]

Sanctification. We got to decipher those kids.

[D]

That's right.

[A]

So let me, let me, let me make a segue here. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk and point a couple things out about this passage that we talked a little bit about this weekend. And then I'm going to dovetail it into this convo and this is like honestly why I wanted you here. So one of the things we built this whole series off of this passage in 1 Corinthians 9. It, it's. It's 1 Corinthians 9, 24 and following it says, do you not know that in a race all the runners run, only one gets the prize run in such a way as to get the prize. By the way, that is probably very obviously where we got the series title run to win. And you know, I'm, I'm very. From an athletic perspective, I am not like rich, but from a mindset perspective, I am like rich. If I'm doing something I want to win, I want to win the thing. That's just how wired.

[B]

That's literally what the verse says.

[A]

Yeah, that's my point. Yeah, it's like bro, we like that's a thing. Like it's literally Right here. And. And what this is saying is like, that energy is. Sometimes I do feel like, to your point, Rich, some people will try to disciple that out of Christians, especially Christian men. And it's like, don't. Don't disciple it out. Yeah, yeah, they'll do that thing. No, no, don't. Don't disciple that out. Redirect it.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Take that exact same energy. And which is why the way, some of the best disciples you'll meet are also great athletes. That's why take that exact same energy and channel it towards the purposes and glory of God. So then the passage goes on and says this. Everybody who runs in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last. We do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore, I do not run like someone running aimlessly. I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No. I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave. So that after I. I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. Let me. So let me just explain something real quick, because this is again where the whole series comes from. And then I'm gonna come back to you, Rich. So. And you. You may know this. This is a little fun. We'll do this real quick. So this. Can you go ahead and toss the other picture from Corinth up on the screen so Carlos knows. So earlier this year, early this year, we got a. We took a little Journey of Paul trip over there, and it was amazing. Have you done that?

[D]

Not I would.

[A]

You gotta do it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So, hey, I'll make a suggestion, and I'm making it to Rich, and I'll make it to everybody here. Do it as a rite of passage for your kids. So, like, when you have a kid that turns, like, pick an age. We're picking 16 with Eliana. With our kids, when they turn 16, either we do journey of Paul or they go to Israel, Footsteps of Jesus. Because, bro, when you finish one of those things.

[D]

I've never been either, dude, it's going.

[A]

To blow your mind when you finish one of those things. A, your Bible goes from black and white of color. But B, if there was anything in you that reads it and wonders, did this really happen?

[D]

Right.

[A]

That's gone.

[D]

That's it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's gone. So, like, and here's. This is a good example. So, like, obviously, Rich just, you know, this is Corinth. This is Corinth. So First Corinthians was written, obviously, the church of Corinth. So this passage right here, it talks about, you know, you got the run. It talks about the games, people running for the. The crown. There's two times. There's two different passages. Let me make sure I can get them right here. Be me. Seat of Christ. Yeah. Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10. They both mention. They call it the Bema seat. Is the Greek language, the Bema seat. And so, dude, this is. This is actually amazing. So, rich CrossFit Games guy, first century Rome, the second largest competitive athletic games, only to the Olympics, happened right outside of Corinth, right on this little isthmus. So they would gather in Corinth, do these massive games. Every. All the best athletes from all over the Roman Empire come to this spot. So then they. They all compete in all these games. When they're done, like we know from Josephus and other Roman historians, they would come to this thing called the bema seat.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

And that was where all the judges were, and they would hand out rewards based on performances. All right, so this is amazing, dude. So you read about this in these two passages. Second Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10. And it specifically references this Bema seat.

[D]

They compete.

[A]

That's it. That's crazy, bro. That. Literally the exact seat that the apostle. And so here's what's cool about this A. We know that's where the athletes came and they stood. Like, you see that little. I'm a hop off camera real quick. You see that thing right there?

[D]

Yep.

[A]

They put that thing right where the athletes would stand in the first century. And then the judges were up there. And then they give them all the. You got like a 500 gift card.

[D]

Under Armour that I couldn't use. I got. That was the year I got second.

[A]

Got second. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

So that's where you would have gotten your gift.

[D]

It's great. I got silver metal that. I don't know where it is either.

[A]

Okay, yeah, that's great. So that's. That's where they got that. But, dude, here's what this is. This is a. Blow your mind, find one. So we know if you go read Acts 18, there's all this. All this fuss that happens. Paul almost gets, you know, killed in Corinth. So in Acts 18, and then it says that he stands trial before a guy named Gallio. This is Acts 18. You go read it tonight. It'd be fun. Like, he literally. Gallio would. Was right there. The apostle Paul in the flesh. Stood right on top of that thing. Thing. And that's exactly where he had that trial with Gallio.

[D]

That is crazy.

[A]

Like, literally right there. So you. Let's go back to this passage in First Corinthians 9. So when Paul is people. If you wonder why did Paul, when he's writing to the Corinthians, that's really the only church that he does this whole run in such a way as to. He does. That's why. To them, because they were like.

[D]

They knew that.

[A]

Yeah. They were seeing all these games. So they had seen the Rich Fronings of Rome.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Stand right there. And a judge be like, hey, man, you should learn to climb a rope with your feet. That's a joke. As a joke. And they had stood right there.

[D]

That's awesome.

[A]

And seen it. And by the way, no disrespect, I hope that didn't come off poorly.

[D]

Dude, I. I promise you.

[A]

Okay. It's good. Good, good.

[D]

I make the joke.

[A]

We're new friends here.

[B]

It's okay. In the pusher competition.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

There we go. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You're good.

[D]

You're good.

[A]

Embarrass me later. But they had seen the judges right there hand out the rewards. So then when it talks in this thing, hey, they. They do it to get a crown that will not last. What Josephus and the Roman historians say is. So athlete stands right there. And whoever. Whoever. Whoever plays first in the comp. Whatever the event was, they would give him a little. It was interesting. It was either made out of celery or pine. That's a fun little Bible fact. And they put it on there. They put it on their head there. So then this is really fun. Then you fast forward to the book of Revelation, and it talks about how they will cast their crowns before them. So that's why Paul's going, I want you to try to run to get a crown that's going to last forever. Revelation is doing a throwback, and essentially it's going, hey, man, someday this kind of thing. I get emotional thinking, someday, every man and every woman who has bent their knee to the lordship of Jesus will stand before something exactly like that. The Lord Jesus will be seated upon it, and he will be handing out rewards for how you leveraged your life for the things that actually matter. Yeah, right there.

[D]

Right there.

[A]

Wow. Right there, dude. So here's what. The reason, Rich, that I was like, man, I think it'd be like, A, it'd be cool, you know, to tang, but B, I just think it'd be cool is like, this passage Makes it clear there are extreme parallels. Parallels between discipleship and athletics. That's why it's. I'll read it one more time and then I'm going to ask you what parallels you see between athletic competition and discipleship and life of the glory God. So I'll read it one more time because it makes this very clear implication. So here, listen real close. It says, run in such a way as to get the price. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. Rich Froning did not become the four time CrossFit champion of the world without strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last. We do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore, I do not run like someone running aimlessly. I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. Instead, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave. So after I preach to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. So Ra, I am curious like, as you watch, what, what parallels are there parallels that you see like man, discipleship, athletic performance.

[D]

I think 100%. I mean obviously consistency in anything. What, what? I. I had to be obsessed right then. We talked about that earlier. To win, to be the best in the world at anything. That's got to be your singular focus.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

What needs to be our singular focus? What's our, what's our nutrition? What's our training?

[A]

Training.

[D]

And then our competition is life. You know, like how do we live that out and how do we take that word and live it out? I mean it's. There's so many parallels. But I mean that's the major, major thing right there.

[A]

The stuff that's, that strikes me. And you, you could probably add color to it is like one, the consistency. So I mean it talks about strict training.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

You know, I think Rich, Rich probably knows this about a thousand times better than me. But it's like, man, the guy that goes out and works out really, really hard once every three weeks. It's like consistency will always be intensity. 2. You know, people do not rise to the level of their goals. They fall to the level of their habits. So it's like that's. It just really strikes me. That's what I said, man. A lot of the best disciples or best athletes end up being good disciples because like those are men and women who know they know how to develop a habit that matters and do it. I also think this is really interesting as he talks in here about like, hey man, I don't run aimlessly. It's, you know, it's that thing of like succeeding at things that don't matter is the worst kind of failure, you know. So I think that's there. I don't know.

[D]

Yeah, he's got that singular focus. He's got the, that what he's aiming for. I'm not a huge goals guy. Like, I'm. I don't know. What do you mean by like I don't have like a. Oh, you know, my goal this week is to like, you know, get X in of like if I'm talking fitness goals, I'm not trying to like, you know, lift a certain weight, whatever. Like my goal was to win the CrossFit Games. I need a, I need a target. I need something out there to chase or something to go after. So like, you know, like last I competed for, what was that? 12, 13 years in CrossFit. And when I got done I was like, I got to have something else because man, there's in it would be. Would one of the kings where it's like at a time when kings usually go out to war. David. David. And so you're like, I've got to, I, I need to have something to chase or something to focus on. Not necessarily a goal. Like I need a physical goal, I need a spiritual goal, whatever. But like I need need. I need something to aim at constantly or else what, what am I doing right? You know, like, it's just, it's just there's nothing, nothing to aim at. There's nothing. Why am I doing it right?

[A]

Dude, there's like, in my, in my experience there's like, there's nothing more dangerous than a bored man. Board. You get a board, man, cuz that energy is going to go somewhere. There's a, one of my. There's a Bible teacher I love that says men are like trucks. They drive better with a luck load. Yeah, it's just like man, if you don't got a load on you, you know, you try.

[D]

It's so hard, you know, because in the, the day and culture that we live in and you know, mental health, but man, if you're in that thing and you know what you're supposed to do as a man, like I welcome like I need not chaos, right? But I need, I want people to like be able to rely on me and, and I need that for my kids. Like I want them to want, if I want my wife to want. And so I'm like, I welcome it. Right. You know there are times where you're like man, tough, but that's what we're supposed to do. That's what we're built for.

[B]

It's interesting, Rich, because you, you mentioned that. And I think the, when you look at like, you know, our culture in general, I think people want to pursue comfort. And obviously one that's, that's not what the Bible teaches. When it comes to Christianity, we are not called to pursue comfort. We're called to pursue Christ. But you're obviously an athlete that pursues, you could say pain.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. Profession.

[B]

Like when I like if anybody sees you training pain. I mean if anybody sees you tr. You do not seem comfortable. You, you're, it seems like you're experiencing. Yeah, lots of pain.

[D]

We call it a second hand enjoyment where you're like, this sucks in the moment, but at the end of it you're like, man, I did something hard and it was a good mental check.

[B]

So I want to ask you about.

[A]

That because obviously that's a Bible verse. That's, that is James. Count it all Joy. My brothers, when you face trials of many kinds because the testing of your faith will develop perseverance. What'd you call it? You called it second hand enjoyment.

[D]

Secondhand enjoyment.

[A]

I'm going to use that. Yeah, it's like, hey, this thing is miserable, but I'm enjoying, I will enjoy what the outcome will be.

[B]

That's why I think. Go ahead.

[D]

No, you'll finish.

[B]

I just want to say that's, that's what I think a lot of people don't understand when you do that. They see you and you seem like you're in pain. And they were probably asking, why would you do that? Why would you want that event? Not just go through that?

[D]

So we have, we have a bison farm too. So I've read this article.

[A]

You say you have a bison.

[D]

Bison farm. Yeah. So we've got 30, about 30 plus out in the, out in the front yard.

[A]

That's awesome.

[D]

And it started out as like, hey, we just want something to kids that we all have to take care of. Me and my best friend, I, I grew up with a mile mile from each other. We were both firefighters. And on his off days he raised cattle. So when we got some property, I was like, oh, let's get cows. And then I started reading Stephen Rinello's American Buffalo. Next thing you know we got bison. But anyway, bison out west. When they see a storm coming, they turn around and faint. Face it. And so I read this article and we came up with the tag. I hate motivational quotes, but this is kind of our like tagline for It. So it's into the storm turn and you face it. And you know that, hey, it's gonna be rough, but you're gonna. One, you're gonna get through it faster, and two, you're gonna get through it better.

[A]

Because isn't that like. It's like. That's the opposite of cows.

[D]

Cows walk away and they get caught, and then you're in it for a.

[A]

While so they stay in the storm longer.

[D]

If you just turn around and head it off, you come through it better. And we all know that, like, if something's given to us, we don't. We don't take care of it as well. We don't. If it's not earned, if it's not something we had to like blood, sweat and tears for, it's not as. It's not as rewarding. Like, you know, you can't say that. You know, if somebody just off gives you, which, you know, gifts are great, but it's just something earned is way better than something given.

[B]

And I think. Well, you mentioned James. I mean, this is also obviously Paul in Romans, chapter five. This is what he says, verse three. Not only that, but we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character, and character produces hope. So it seems rich. Like you're saying, man, when you're going through that training, your mentality is, man, I'm going through this because there's something I'm looking towards ahead.

[D]

Something's on the other side.

[B]

That's gain. And so Obviously, you know, CrossFit produces muscle gain. Going through pain into the storm produces character gain and spiritual gain.

[A]

And.

[B]

And, you know, and so there's a. It's a. It's a different mindset because I think. I do think even as Christians, sometimes we now we want to play it safe.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

And I want to. I want to be comfortable. We don't want to run. But you're saying, no, no, you need to. I'm running towards the storm.

[D]

And that's been something in. In, you know, as I've not competed at a high level in the last couple years. You know, when I. Honestly, the times when I was closest to God or in my. In the Word the most is when it would come time for competition or something was happening. So I'm like, man, how can I. How can I make sure that I'm doing. And in the Word, when times are good, right. When it's easy, when. When things are good, you're like, oh, thanks, God, but, you know, I'm not going to, you know, whatever, but on those times when you need something. So I'm like, how do I have the same passion, the same drive for that when things are good? And so that's like a thing that I tried to, you know, I, you know, faith, family, fitness are my three, my three things that I. Every day. And I'm like, all right, end of the day, how did I do in my, in my faith? Did I read the word? Did I live it out? Did I, you know, do the things that I feel like Jesus is calling me to do? Family? Did I spend enough quality time with each my wife, my three kids, you know, depending on what's going on? And then for me, selfishly, fitness is the easiest one for me to do. Like, if I don't work out on a day, I, I'm just. My wife has finally figured out it's. It's a bit of an addiction, probably, but it's better off if, if I just get, you know, get that fix out on a vacation or something. Give me 30 minutes to go do something and I'm more clear headed. And so fitness is the easiest one, but I try to at night. All right, how did you do in those three things? Short memory when you do good, short memory when you do bad. Because you got to stack some days, right?

[A]

That's fantastic.

[D]

It's tough, you know, like, there's days and you've got to be as objective as possible. I'm like, hey, how did I do? You know, like, oh, man, I got a ton of, I got a ton of time in with Hillary. I got a ton of time in with Violet. I did. I, you know, like, was Lakeland. You know, those are the times you're like, how can I do better tomorrow? Right? And when you do good, short memory, because you want to stack good days. And when you do bad, hey, how can you do better tomorrow? But then short memory on that too, bro.

[A]

You know, it's interesting. So, like, again, it's just like those mentalities, like, that's an athlete mentality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, okay, markers. Yeah, dude, that's the exact same thing. It's like, it's the, it's the, like, it's a leadership axiom. You're doing it with athletics. I, I'm a leader.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's the leadership axiom. Whatever's measured improves. There's literally an axiom. All you have to do to improve something is start measuring it and looking at the measurements, and I guarantee it will naturally gravitate towards improvement. So it's like, man, just going to the end of the day and going, okay, man, I got these three things that matter to me. Yep, I got Jesus, I got my family, I got my body.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Okay, let me do a quick check in.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah, I think also in church world, sometimes when it comes to, obviously we, there is a sense in which those three things are different. Obviously, you know, family, faith, fitness. But in one sense, fitness is spiritual in a sense of like, as Christians, when you read the Bible, the Bible actually elevates the body, the physical body, way more than probably anybody else. And I think, you know, we don't, again, we don't think as when we work out or do work on our fitness, man. This is an act of worship. There's literally a verse in romans says chapter 12, present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. So there's again this, like, it's a one thing when you work out, man, that's a man. I want to take care of my body because God gave me this body and man, I want to use it for his glory.

[D]

90, I'd say 90% of the time we listen to worship music. When I work out, people are like, what are you doing? I'm just like, man, I'm in a better spot. And honestly, some of the best times that like I've got a couple, a couple buddies that'll come over and work out in the barn and we'll just blast the sermon. Like there's been a couple times we've, we've, we've done cardio. Like, I can't listen to a sermon if I've got to count something. But if I'm just sitting on a machine, like we've done several, like hop on a machine, shoot a bow, like a little bit of zone 2ish type stuff. But like listening to a sermon, man, it's, it's, there's just.

[A]

Hey, who do you listen to?

[D]

I've listened to you a couple times.

[A]

Hey man, you don't gotta lie to me.

[B]

When he's lifting heavy, he needs a Josh.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Get hyped. No, you and then are my, my home pastor Bobby Davis.

[A]

That's awesome.

[D]

He's a good dude.

[A]

So that's awesome.

[D]

Yeah, but yeah, yours is on there. That's amazing. A couple buddies that now listen to you because we, we've done that while we're working out.

[B]

So that's amazing.

[A]

That's awesome, dude. So tell me because like, this is what this is What? It's just my respect level for you skyrocketed is like, I started watching, you know, I first found you CrossFit stuff, and then I started why I follow you on Instagram. I. I check out the YouTube page and Offic. You know, originally I'm just looking for hotel workouts, but then I'm like, man, this guy's like. This guy's, like, very outspoken about. About his faith in Christ. He's very. It's like, dude, tell me about, like. And I'm saying this in a positive way. You are, like, 99.9 of the people listen to this podcast. You're not a pastor. It's like, dude, I'm. I'm just. I'm a guy.

[D]

Figure it out.

[A]

In one sense, I'm a guy working a job.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Like, in one, I'm a guy working a job. But then you're, like, finding intentional ways to leverage where you are and what you have for the glory of God. Like, tell me, how do you approach it? How do you think about it? What works? What doesn't work?

[D]

You know, for me, I feel like relationship helps a ton. You can't be too preachy in what I do. Like, I. Man, I'm. That's not where I'm. That's not my spiritual gift.

[C]

Is this the.

[D]

Speaking of. Of it? But I mean, if I've got miles with somebody, I can be like, hey, just check this out, or here's a book, or, you know, like, hey, let's. Let's talk about whatever, man. I'm just surrounded by a bunch of good dudes, right? That we all. We're all broken, right? We all. We all know. Know that we need. Need Jesus. And then, man, we've got some guys around that don't yet know they need Jesus, but we'll. We'll work on them a little bit. And so, man, I just feel like that's. That's where I'm called, you know, I feel like I've said it all along. The talent that I was given or the gifts that I was given, the genetic. Whatever, my gift back was, like, tell as many people as I can about Jesus. And so I've tried to, you know, live that. And. And when the opportunity comes up with it, you know, you don't want to never. You don't want to overdo it to where it turns people off. So that's. That's the hard part is finding that balance of, like, you know, I always tell people I love Jesus, but I cuss a little bit. You know, like that shirt. At times I'm like, you know, depending on the crowd and what's going on, you know, I'm like, and, and you can relate to people differently like that. Right? You know, I was a firefighter for several years, you know, and so it's, it's just, man, I just, I love Jesus and love what he's done for me and my family. And I wouldn't be who I am. I wouldn't have the family I have without him.

[A]

Well, I'll, I'll like, I'll brag on you more. First of all, like, what you just said is one of my, I love just telling people that, like, honestly, for most people, if they're just like genuine, authentic and in some way they're willing to be public about their faith, what happens is a, like a bunch of people look at me and they'd be like, I, I, I, either, I either I can't be like that guy guy, or very frankly they're like, I don't want to be like that guy. That guy's weird or what? But what happens is there's a bunch of people who look at you or look at the guys that listen to this and they're like, oh, well, I could be a Christian. Like that.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And that honestly, is usually the first penny that drops for somebody when they take a step towards faith. But you've also done stuff that like, as far as trying to succeed at the things that matter matter. You start this non profit. I mean like you, you got some things. You. The adoption thing.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Give me this. First of all, Rich and I discovered before this, we essentially have family. Our families are like nearly twin families.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Pretty close. What's your give? Give the quick synopsis of the adoption thing. Yeah.

[D]

Why you did it, man? We, we did the whole infertility thing. My wife wrote a book, Blessed by Adoption. Anybody? Man, it's. If I could have written, read, read that before, before going through all that, it would have helped, helped me a lot.

[A]

Blessed by adoption.

[D]

Adoption, man, she's, she nailed it. It's got a little like kind of her story and then a little journal piece next to it. Man, it, she's, she crushed it with that.

[A]

She's super, we all toss that up like in, in post.

[D]

She's super talented with, she doesn't write ever. But man, when you read this, you're like, and a lot of it was written by her. I'm like, holy crap. Like, I didn't know you had. And she won't do it. She won't write. Like, she had a blog for a while that she did. But anyway, so she was going through this. We were. We were going through this. And no biological reason, you know, like, can't really explain other than that wasn't the plan unexplained.

[A]

That's what we got.

[D]

Yeah, that's what you said. And I mean, that's what we got. It's like, oh, you're good. She's pretty good. I mean, she had a little endometriosis, whatever. That's jam, but it's just like cross. It's. Yeah. So she had that surgery, didn't do anything. And so, you know, we. We did. I think iui. We never did in vitro. And she was talking and she's like, what about adoption? I'm like, ah, you know, I don't know if I'm ready yet. Blah, blah. And then I was like, yeah, you know, I'm ready, but it's got to be a girl first. I don't know why the heck I said that. You know, like, it's got. Why does it have to be a girl?

[A]

But anyway, it's a good strategy.

[D]

Yeah, right. And so she was like, cool. Well, friend of a friend of a friend, knew that we were going through this. Knew somebody that was. Man. And this. This gets me emotional is talking about this. This clinic. It's a. It used to be called the Crisis Pregnancy Clinic, but now they have to call it the Cookeville Pregnancy Clinic because crisis. Whatever. But anyway, not PC, Not PC or whatever. And so this. The. My Lakeland's birth mom went in to have an abortion and they. This is not an abortion clinic. It's a Christ centered. That's a mom's clinic. And they were like, you know, showed her a heartbeat and all this. And she's like, oh, I can't that do.

[A]

Do that. They saved her life.

[D]

Saved her life. Saved my life, really. You know, and so. So he'll. So this was my last CrossFit games. We're a. Probably a month out. We found out she's due in two weeks. We have to get home, study all that junk, all this stuff, whatever. Two weeks before we have Lakeland. July 7th, CrossFit Games is, I think was on my birthday that year, the 21st. So two weeks old, we go to the CrossFit Games, we have Lakeland. So we have Lakeland. For two and a half years, we had a couple like, you know, matched, unmatched. Matched, unmatched type things happen. And just to watch her go through Until I have the baby with me, it's not my baby. But to her, yes. Any missed or any missed period, anything was. She's pregnant.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

And man, I couldn't watch it. And so she's like, one more, one more adoption. And I was like, I'm not watching you go through this. She's like, you're going to sign this? I was like, yes, ma', am, I'll sign this, but this is the last one. So I signed this piece of paper and it was through this lawyer we found out that night we were 1 to 20.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

Four hours later, we found we were 1 to 5. An hour later we had to be in, we had to drive to Jacksonville, Florida the next morning.

[A]

Welcome to.

[D]

Trice was in the NICU, and so he was in the NICU for about 13 days. And I had to compete at regional, so I had to go home. Hillary stayed in Jacksonville with her sister, came down and helped her and stayed with Trice and Richard iii. But if anybody knows Trice, it's.

[A]

That's.

[D]

His name's Trice. And so he's, he's a raccoon. But. And so Fast forward, he's 10 months old. And then Hillary stays in touch with the birth mom of Lakeland. No, real, you know, we're not against doing it again, but gonna take some time. We have a 10 month old. Trice was super easy baby. But I still remember the look on Hillary's face. I'm sitting on the couch, she walks in and she goes, she had another baby and can't keep her and asked if we would take her. And I was like, absolutely, we will. And then I'm like, you know, all in. And then I start to like, can we, can we do this?

[A]

Wait, what did I just say?

[D]

And man, I gosh, I can't imagine. And I had a buddy, good friend of mine, Jim Hensel, was like, you'll never, you know, because I, I never once thought about, you know, rescinding. But I'm like, man, what are we going to do? Like playing this game in my head and, you know, three kids under the age of two and a half at this point, whatever. He's like, you'll never regret, regret taking that baby, but you'll regret forever not having it.

[A]

I was like, fact.

[D]

All right, makes sense. And dude, now, man, I can't imagine our life without violin. And so, so I've got three Lakeland's now 11, which kind of the. There's a documentary on Netflix or something of kind of Our whole process of the last year I competed, and that whole story's in there with Lakeland, which is crazy to think. She's 11. 11. And then Trice is now 8, and Violet's 7, and so it's. It's awesome.

[A]

Dude, did you. And you, like, you were well into your faith journey at that point.

[D]

Oh, well into it.

[A]

Bro. Did you have this moment? So, like, Janet, I had this moment. Did you do the thing where the adoption gets finalized and then you got to go back to the courtroom? So, bro. So, like, I want to know if this hit you. Like, it hit me. So we. With. With all three of ours, we have that. And then I think it was with Felicity, our middle. We go back, and, you know, I'm a Jesus guy. I'm a Bible guy. So then we're standing there in the courtroom, and they're finalizing the adoption. The judge brings us up more, holding Felicity. And if I get emotional, this is where I get emotional.

[D]

Yep, same.

[A]

And he's. He's. He's like. He starts reading us these commitments that we're gonna make. So he looks at us, and he's like, josh Jan Howerton, do you understand the henceforth forth, you are accepting responsibility for this child mentally, emotionally, physically, financially, in every way? You know, we're like, yes, sir. And then he's like, josh Jan Howard, you understand that this child henceforth becomes a part of your family and has a right to an inheritance? And I'm like, absolutely, yes, sir. And he's like, hey, Josh and Aaron, do you understand that. That from this day forward, henceforth, the identity of this child has been changed? Changed and parallel.

[D]

Wow, bro. That's.

[A]

So. This. They're like, from now on, she will be known as Felicity Howard. And, dude, I'm like. I'm, like, weeping because I'm like, Romans 8. I'm like, for you have not been given a spirit of fear, but a spirit of adoption as sons, by which we're. And I'm like, bro. I'm like, this is a freaking multimedia gospel presentation like this. This is exactly what happened to me from the perspective of eternity, and it's crazy. It. It. It wrecked me.

[D]

That's awesome. Heck, yeah.

[A]

It totally wrecked me.

[D]

It makes sense now, you know? Like, I didn't understand unconditional love until that point. Yeah, until you have kids, you don't understand it, you know? And then exactly what you're saying. Like, at no point am I ever like, oh, yeah, that I don't even think about my kids being adopted. Until you talk to somebody else that has adopted kids, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, cool. You know, whatever. But man, my kids are my kids, you know, like, that's. They're me, right? And you see some. Some of the things you do, and they're like, yep, that's his kids.

[A]

Right?

[D]

You know, and man, I, I wouldn't change it for, you know, because back then we were like, oh, let's. Let's have three biological. And we'll adopt one when we get to that point. And God was like, I got a better plan.

[A]

Yes. Right.

[D]

You know, so, man, we're blessed for sure.

[A]

Rich, if you were gonna, like, just for the people listening to pod, you know, it's kind of the. What we're going to be camping on at Lake Point for the next four or five weeks is that like, hey, run to win. You know, it's like with. With the same level of ferocity, intensity, focus, you know, as an athlete in their craft, man, leverage the short days. And I just want to emphasize that. Leverage the short days that we have on this earth for the glory of God and the good of people, man. If you were going to give an encouragement, just everybody listening, like, hey, man, I just want to encourage you guys in this direction. We. Man, here, here's what I've seen in me and my. My family's life as we've stepped into this, man. You got any words of encouragement that you just kind of share with our.

[D]

Body, man, I think, shoot. Be a part of a church, obviously. Get around other believers getting that word every day. Every day that you can. There's. It's. That book's alive, right? It's not a. It's not a dead piece of literature. It's alive. And there's something that can speak to you every single day. It speaks to me every single day.

[A]

Day.

[D]

And one of the. One of our favorite things is like church doesn't stop here, right? So when you go out there, you are the church and man tell people about Jesus.

[A]

Well, hey, dude, the whole reason I. My, you know, I already. I liked you just from afar, but the reason I started to respect you is because you do that. So, man, just know in Dallas, Texas, you got 30, 40,000 people who are now rich fronting fans.

[D]

Appreciate it. Guys, come to Cookville, Tennessee anytime. It's very similar to Texas. It's not Texas. Tennessee's close, but it's. It's.

[A]

It's like Texas with hills.

[D]

Yeah, a little bit more hills. I was about to say a little bit. Little bit more hills.

[B]

And bisons.

[D]

And bison.

[A]

And bison. That's right. And World's Fittest, man, four times.

[B]

Let's go.

[D]

Tired family.

[A]

Hey, let's.

[D]

Push up competition.

[C]

All right?

[A]

One, two, three. Break.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

All right, all right. Here we go. All right.

[B]

Here we go.

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33. All the way up. Down. 34. Down. 35. Down. 36. Down. I thought I'd go way longer than that. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review, and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church Livefree. We'll see you next time.