Megachurch Pastor REACTS to Theo Von Wrestling with Jesus!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode: Megachurch Pastor REACTS to Theo Von Wrestling with Jesus!?
Date: May 4, 2026
Host: Josh Howerton (Lakepointe Church)
Co-Hosts: Carlos Arazo, Pastor Paul Cunningham
Special Focus: Reflections on conscience, sovereignty, politics, responding to viral Theo Von clip, and modern challenges for Christians

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Episode Overview

This episode is rich with passionate discussion and teaching, blending pastoral heart, practical theology, current events, and raw, real-life stories. Pastor Josh and his team react to culturally significant viral moments, including comedian Theo Von’s candid spiritual wrestling, while also diving deep into biblical concepts such as conscience and God’s sovereignty, and reflecting on real stories of redemption within their church community. The tone is honest, direct, and at points, deeply emotional.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Baptisms and Testimonies (01:18–03:00)

• The team celebrates baptizing around 700 people in one weekend—a record for Lakepointe Church.
  • “Baptized like 700 people... That’s our largest baptism weekend ever.” – Josh (01:26)
• Camila’s story: Formerly trafficked, Camila finds healing, community, and brings her family to faith. Now she serves in the church.
  • “She is in a group. She brings her dad, gets baptized, she brings her brother, gets baptized, and now she's serving...” – Carlos (01:41)
• Emphasis on the real-life impact of Jesus on lives.

2. Honoring Suffering and Hope: Kelly Gudreau Story (05:51–11:15)

• Josh emotionally honors Kelly Gudreau, a church member suffering from terminal cancer and founder of the “Hope Bag” ministry for cancer patients.
• Emphasizes the idea: “God will take your deepest misery and make it your greatest ministry.”
• Reads Richard Baxter’s historic “dying prayer” as a pastoral comfort:
  • “Lord, it belongs not to my care Whether I die or if I live to love and serve Thee is my share...” (08:50)
• Call for prayer, encouragement to “show how Christian men die” (faithful, hopeful, pointing others to Jesus).

3. Engaging Culture & Politics: Responding to James Talarico (11:29–22:50)

• Josh gives a strategic update on Christian political engagement, highlighting political candidate James Talarico—framed as representing “evil things” and “false teacher” in NT categories.
• Cites record fundraising and polling to stir Christian listeners toward civic action (“not without Live Free Nation...”).
• Argues the stakes of political differences have escalated from “third-tier” issues to foundational moral and theological ones (marriage, gender, abortion, religious liberty).
• Refutes the idea that Christians should abstain from politics:
  • “Satan targets thrones and dominions... If godly people don’t, godless people will.” (18:51)
• Announces voter turnout initiative: simple website to help Christians vote, emphasizing their disproportionate impact.
  • “If Christians did their job, literally every election in America would go the way that best slowed societal decay.” (21:01)

4. Acts 23 and Context: Paul’s Trial & Religious Factions (23:06–32:34)

• Fresh series on Acts 23, termed “End Game”—parallels to Indiana Jones and Marvel’s Endgame, indicating the final phase of Paul’s earthly ministry.
• Breakdown of first-century Jewish factions:
  • Sadducees: Elite, progressive, Torah-only, reject supernatural (27:09)
  • Pharisees: Popular-level teachers, strict, Bible-believing, and more widely respected (28:19)
  • Essenes: Separatist, apocalyptic, linked to Dead Sea Scrolls
• Paul’s strategy: identifies with Pharisees, cleverly divides the Sanhedrin on the resurrection issue.
  • “He goes, hey, my belief in the resurrection is why I’m on trial right now. And it splits... so the Pharisees start fighting the Sadducees.” (35:15)
• Fun facts: the Sicarii (Jewish ‘ninjas’/assassins), Ananias’ corruption, and prophecies in context.

5. Sovereignty of God: Theology & Pastoral Application (35:32–56:13)

Paul Cunningham explains three main theological lanes:

1. Compatibilism:

   • God is sovereign, humans are truly responsible. Both affirmed by Scripture, even when mysterious.
   • “How do you reconcile divine sovereignty and human responsibility? ... I don’t reconcile friends.” – Spurgeon (42:15)
   • Uses analogy to authorship of scripture and the cross as “the worst thing to the best person”—ordained but evil (40:43).

2. Libertarian Free Will:

   • Emphasis on human autonomy; less biblical, but held by some Christians. Problematic in reality and Scripture.

3. Open Theism:

   • God does not know the future, preserves free will. Labeled as “massive ditch”—to be avoided.
   • “He knows all the possibilities, but he actually does not know what you’re gonna do until you do it...” (52:34)

• Comfort for suffering Christians:
  • “The sovereignty of God is the pillow upon which the child of God rests his head at night, giving perfect peace.” – Spurgeon (54:45)
  • “Nothing can come to me except through the hands of my good and wise Father.” – Paul C. (47:33)

6. Four Types of Conscience According to Paul (56:38–73:32)

• Clear Conscience (Acts 23:1): In step with God
• Defiled Conscience (Titus 1:15): Calls evil good, and good evil
• Seared Conscience (1 Tim 4:2): Hardened, no longer feels conviction.
  • “When somebody can sin and not feel bad about it at all. That is a very, very dangerous place to be.” – Josh (62:17)
• Weak Conscience (1 Cor 8): Overactive, condemns where God does not.

7. Viral Clip on Abortion: “Seared Conscience” in Culture (63:22–71:58)

• Pastor Josh reacts to a congressional hearing exchange between Congressman Brandon Gill and an abortion advocate.
• Highlights the use of sanitized language (“reproductive healthcare”) as deception; contrasts it with the explicit reality of abortion procedures.
  • “Calling abortion healthcare is like calling rape lovemaking or calling slavery job creation.” – Josh (64:48)
• Asserts that inability to grapple with the horror (“seared conscience”) is a spiritual danger, not just a political disagreement.

8. Compassion & Grace for the Broken (71:58–72:10)

• Josh reassures a listener who had an abortion: “You are not defined by your sins anymore... Jesus was crucified for your sin. Not only are you forgiven, you will be greeted by the son or daughter you never met to the glory of God.”

9. Theo Von’s Viral Clip: Wrestling with Jesus (73:41–88:55)

• Plays viral audio of comedian Theo Von struggling with Jesus’ question: “Do you want to be healed?”
  • “It’s like, do I want to be healed? Do I really want something different? Sometimes the answer is no. I want something different, but I’m scared…” – Theo Von (75:50, 85:08)
• Josh interprets as a clear, raw display of the Holy Spirit’s work in someone — “the doctrine of regeneration.”
  • “He’s doing a theology of miracles without knowing he’s doing it. ...His issue became his identity.” – Josh (80:13, 82:45)
• Encouragement to listeners who feel unworthy or unready:
  • “If you tarry till you’re better, you will never come at all.” – quoting hymn (86:41)
  • “Just bring your imperfect, flawed self to Jesus, and he’ll fill you with his power and clean you up, man.” – Josh (87:20)
• Prophetic encouragement: “You watch, God is gonna save that guy and use him.” (74:03, 88:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On guilt and salvation:
  • “You feeling terrible is not a sign of you not being saved. It's a sign that you are. It means your conscience is working.” – Josh (00:00)
• On Satan’s strategy:
  • “When Christians adopt the [attitude], ‘we should just stay out of politics,’ what you’re doing is Satan’s going, ‘thank you very much.’” – Josh (18:51)
• On real spiritual awakening:
  • “I don’t know, I’m starting to just feel something different... do I want to be healed?” — Theo Von (75:09)
• On pastoral comfort to the broken:
  • “You are not defined by your sins anymore... when that woman steps into heaven, she will be greeted by the son or the daughter she never met.” – Josh (71:58)
• On divine sovereignty:
  • “The sovereignty of God is the pillow upon which the child of God rests his head at night, giving perfect peace.” – (54:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Baptism Stories / Camila’s Redemption: 01:18–03:00
• Honoring Suffering: Kelly Gudreau & Pastoral Prayer: 05:51–11:15
• Political Engagement & Talarico Discussion: 11:29–22:50
• Acts 23, Sanhedrin Factions, Paul's Strategy: 23:06–35:15
• Sovereignty of God: Compatibilism, Theological Lanes: 35:32–56:13
• Types of Conscience: 56:38–73:32
• Congressional Abortion Hearing / Seared Conscience: 63:22–71:58
• Assurance of Grace for the Broken: 71:58–72:10
• Theo Von’s Clip & Pastoral Reaction: 73:41–88:55

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Final Tone & Takeaways

This episode is both deeply pastoral and boldly prophetic, refusing to shy away from the raw reality of modern pain, sin, politics, and longing for redemption. The tone matches the content—empathetic, urgent, a little humorous, sometimes confrontational, but always coming back to God’s sovereign grace and the possibility of transformation in Christ.

Listeners walk away challenged to examine conscience, assured that no pain or sin is beyond redemption, and given practical steps to live out faith—individually and as a community.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You feeling terrible is not a sign of you not being saved. It's a sign that you are. It means that your conscience is working.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Pain is the sign to you that something is wrong with your body and it needs to be fixed. Guilt is to the soul what pain is to the body.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

A sign of not being saved is not that you feel terrible when you do terrible things. It's that you feel nothing when you do terrible things.

[Carlos Arazo]

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church Online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Arazo, and today I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton and Pastor Paul Cunningham.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Listen. After baptizing 700 people.

[Carlos Arazo]

My goodness, that's. That was amazing, dude.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So for those who are listening, we're. We're on a high this weekend at Lake point. Baptized like 700 people. I'm still waiting on the. We'll see what the number lands, but my goodness, dude, I. I never seen anything like that. That's our largest baptism weekend ever. That's amazing.

[Carlos Arazo]

Can I share a story, please? So some of the. I was texting with some of the campus pastors. So Ryan Sharp, he's our campus pastor for Fire Wheel Campus, he shared with me the story of Camila, who, by the way, we have Camilla's permission to share this story. So she was abducted and drawn into sex slavery when she was a teenager. She was held captive for many years. When she was 22, Garland Police does a sting operation in the apartment that she was in, and she's made free her and some other girls. But she was still wrestling with, obviously some spiritual bondage and more. At some point, she Drives by the Lake Point firewall campus middle of last year, comes in, listens to the message Christ, whole service, gives her life to Jesus, connects with our staff, gets baptized, goes to root it. Week four of rooted, she comes up to Pastor Ryan and says, hey, Pastor Ryan, I'm going to Waffle House with some friends. Pastor Ryan's like, great, that's exciting. And she says, no, no, you don't understand. I've never had friends. She is in a group. She brings her dad, gets baptized, she brings her brother, gets baptized, and now she's serving at Lake Point Church. This is how Jesus changed her life. So, bro, story after story.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Top that, Paul.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

On that note, it's been a great podcast. We will see you guys next week.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Dude, I love my job.

[Carlos Arazo]

Real stories.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's incredible.

[Carlos Arazo]

It was a great weekend.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It was awesome, man. Can I take a hard left, emotional turn? Please do. Real quick. Let me just tell you where this pod's going because this is a dagum full pod. So. So we got a lot going on here. We're going to talk. I'm going to give a quick update on some Talarico stuff that's kind of interesting. Then we're going to talk Acts 23. We're going to go Indiana Jones on this thing real quick. We're going to talk about views of God's sovereignty, right? Actually, let me rephrase that. Chad G. Paul C. Is going to talk about views. I feel like I was the only

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

one excited about that topic right now. I was like, I was pumping the ear.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So, like, so what that is for. For listeners that are uninformed, is God sovereign? Is he in control of all things, including evil and sin? Is he actually just sort of playing chess? Is, you know, so different views here.

[Carlos Arazo]

Is he sovereign over this?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What the heck are you doing?

[Carlos Arazo]

What are you doing? I want to know if he's sovereign over this.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, he's sovereign over all good things. I think it's over all good things.

[Carlos Arazo]

I agree with you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Come down to the father of heavenly

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

light and he permits back to bad things. Old masterpieces. Real quick. So, man, fact about Nickelback, it's really bad. If you play their albums backwards, you hear the voice of Satan.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Stop, dude. This is so dumb.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

It's even worse because if you play it forwards, you hear Nickelback.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Sorry,

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

on that note, what else are we talking about?

[Carlos Arazo]

This is an objectively great song and you know, you're wrong.

[Theo Von]

You're wrong.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Nickelback gets way too much hate. We're going to hit Theo Von who It feels like a guy I would have gone to high school with, he had a super honest clip. This week we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about, man. There's a lot, dude, there's a lot going on here. We're going to talk about Brandon Gill, United States, I think Congressman, if I remember right, had a mega viral line of questioning to somebody about abortion that reveals a ton of stuff. So anyway, ton of stuff going on.

[Carlos Arazo]

Hey, this week we are, this weekend we're getting ready to celebrate Mother's Day as well. So, man, we are excited for that coming out.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

First time I've ever preached on Mother's Day.

[Carlos Arazo]

Come on. Ever.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

At Lake Point.

[Carlos Arazo]

At Lake Point. Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Cool.

[Carlos Arazo]

Wow, man, you've been here for now seven years.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I know, man.

[Carlos Arazo]

That's a.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You waited falls in the calendar.

[Carlos Arazo]

We waited quite a bit. Hey, so if that's you, if you're listening to LIY right now and you ever come visit us in person, come say hi. We got a gift for you as well. Every single week we do a hat giveaway. So comment hat on YouTube or Spotify. And we love to give away these hats. Also, to find our daily Bible reading plan, plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release of the live free podcast, plus your discipleship guide, download the Lake Point Church app. Text the word app to 20411 or go to Apple or Google Play.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, here's my hard left emotional turn. Speaking of hats, I want to give a shout out to a lake pointer. Yeah, this is where my eyes may sweat a bit. Who may be going to hug Jesus soon. And the reason I want to do this is this. This is a big part of my week. I'm this guy's name is Kelly Goudreau and I want to honor this man. Kelly Gudreau is one of the finest men I've ever met my entire life. If you've been around Lake Point for a minute, right now I'm asking everybody to pray for my friend Kelly, longtime Lake Point guy. Unless the Lord Jesus does what he does sometimes, Kelly, Kelly may go hug Jesus soon. And so I've been calling him, texting him, praying for him. If you've been around Lake Point for a minute, Kelly's the guy who, what we say at Lake Point is, man, God will take your deepest misery and make it your greatest ministry. And when Kelly got diagnosed with what he was told was going to be terminal cancer, he started this thing called Hope Bag. I'm wearing a hat right now. If you're on if you're not on YouTube. And what he did is he took all the Bible verses that he would read when he was going into the oncologist to encourage him. And he grabbed a bunch of lake pointers and he started making these little bags where they would put all the stuff that cancer patients need that just sort of help them. And then he and this group, they would go through their Bibles and they highlighted and marked all these verses that, like, are perfect words in season for cancer patients. And they've. They turned it into. It blew up. They turned into a ministry. They're sending bags all over the United States. United States, to other countries now, all because one guy was willing to turn his greatest misery into his deepest ministry. And so, number one, I'm asking people to pray for my buddy Kelly. Number two, I want to use this as a teaching moment for Christians because. And Kelly, if you hear this, all of us, we're praying that you're not going to go hug Jesus soon. But I do want to say this. Not many people do a good job of showing people how a Christian man is supposed to die. I read this book when I was in college. It's called the Walk. You remember Michael Card? So Michael Card was a. You don't remember?

[Carlos Arazo]

I do not know.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

But Michael Card was a Christian musician when I was in high school and middle school. And he wrote a book about this. This older man that discipled him when he was in college. And the book's called the Walk because all this guy would do, he was a. A senior saint, and he would just walk big circles around Western Kentucky University's campus with him and talk to him about Jesus. And that guy got diagnosed with terminal cancer. And Michael Card was like, well, I guess our discipleship's over. And he said, are you kidding? And then he said this. Now I have to show you how a Christian man dies. And he spent the rest of his short life taking walks of Michael and talking about how a Christian man dies. Kelly Gudreau is walking faithfully with Jesus. Everybody that he comes in contact with, he is pointing to the one he's going to go hug either now or later. So I want to do this real quick because also a name that I will not name. Like, literally right before we started this pod, I got a call about a lake pointer that was probably going to heaven soon. And I just want to do this real quick. There's a prayer from a guy named Richard Baxter that was a pastor in the 1600s, I think that I read years ago. And it was his dying prayer that he wrote. And I saved it in an iPhone note for me. Because someday, all three of us, we're going to need to set an example for our kids and our grandkids, God willing, to show them how a Christian man dies. And I saved this prayer back then so that the Lord could help me when that time comes to do that. And so I just. You know, there's tons of listeners who, you have somebody that might go hug Jesus soon. What I do is I call somebody and I just ask them if it'd be okay if I read them this prayer. And maybe. Maybe you'll do that, or maybe this will comfort you. But it says this, Lord, it belongs not to my care Whether I die or if I live to love and serve Thee is my share and this thy grace must give. If life be long, I will be glad that I may long obey if short. Yet why should I be sad? To welcome endless day, Christ leads me through no darker rooms than he went through before. He that unto God's kingdom comes must enter by this door. Come, Lord, when grace hath made me meet thy blessed face to see. For if thy work on earth be sweet, what will thy glory be? Then I shall end my sad complaints and weary, sinful days and join with the triumphant saints that sing my Savior's praise. My knowledge of that life is small, the eye of faith is dim. But tis enough that Christ knows all. And I shall be with him in Jesus name. Amen.

[Interviewer]

Amen.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So I love my boy Kelly. Pray for my boy Kelly. And I pray that encourages a lot of people. Yeah, man. There you go. There you go. That was a hard, emotional left turn.

[Carlos Arazo]

Have you been keeping up with the Talarico pulse by any chance?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

See, there's the emotional left turn, but we gotta do it.

[Carlos Arazo]

No pun intended. Left turn. Yeah, that's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We gotta do the pod. We gotta do the pod. Yeah. Let me do this real quick because I want to explain something that in the next few months will become more and more of a thing that we just. Because we have a strategy. So let me explain something real quick. Trinity, will you toss that thing up real quick? So, first of all, so James Talarico, if you don't know who this is, go. I wouldn't. We'll put it in the show notes. I've done either one or two react episodes to Talarico. He is man. This is man. No ill will towards him as a man. Like, I pray for his salvation. We want good things for his life, but the things that he stands for are largely, they're evil things. And he's what the New Testament would call in New Testament categories, like a false teacher. Because he's a guy that claims to be somebody that's, you know, that he preaches in a quote unquote church, is quote unquote in a quote unquote seminary training for quote unquote Christian ministry. But he's got his non binary, all the trans things, you know, max boost abortion and you know, all the things that God hates. He's for that stuff. So that dude, right now polls are showing in the midterms, he may flip Texas blue. I just want to say, you know, not without Live Free Nation going down without a free time. So let me just say first of all, number one, this came out this week. James Talariko breaks national fundraising record with 27 million in the first quarter for the Senate race. And then this poll came out two days ago. So this is him versus the two. There's like a runoff between the two conservatives, Paxton and Cornyn. And right now that poll shows him with a slight edge over either of them. That I'll just say this, that will only happen if all the Christians in the state of Texas don't do their jobs and stay home and abdicate their spiritual responsibility for they're supposed to do. Let me just, I want to explain something before we start doing it. So some people, you listen to the pod, and some people still, they're like, hey man, you need to stay out of politics. You need to quit. You need to stay out of it. Quit talking about it. So let me explain something. Thirty years ago, the differences between the two parties were largely second and third tier issues. It was like, hey man, we differ on marginal tax rates. And you know, both of us are against open borders, but we differ on how many legal immigrants we should allow. And you know, 30 years ago, bro, it was Democrats signing DOMA, the defense of Marriage Act. Like defining that was Democrats signing that, defining marriage as one man, one woman. You know, that was 30 years. So 30 years ago, the party differences were second, third year issues. The reason that some Christians look at pastors like me and they're like, bro, you're crazy. You're supposed to stay out of this stuff is because they're using yesterday's paradigm on today's reality. Because now the differences are not second and third tier issues. All the differences, they're like first tier issues. Because it's like, hey man, one party wants to like, max boost abortion, redefine marriage. They can't get the definition of gender, right? When they're like, by the way, using the government's school system to indoctrinate everybody's kids into those things. It's like, literally, if you're paying attention, it's like open socialism and actual communism. Like, you know, you're watching Mom, Donnie up there, like, legitimately open borders. The doj. Actually, I'll just throw this up real quick. We don't. I don't have a commentary on this. I just. People are not Christians are not getting their heads fast enough around the reality. That's why I'm doing this. So this came out, I think it was yesterday. The current DOJ is digging into what the last administration did with the doj and they found that the quote, this is New York Post. Okay? Biden admin, quote, zealously probed traditional Christians, even keeping tabs on priests. Now go to the little quote in the article. And this is like, this is what the doj. All right, this is doj. So this is not. Again, this is not like Newsmax. This is the doj. I'mma read it if my, you know, I don't got any cheaters here. So here's what it says. The Biden administration zealously investigated, penalized and engaged in, quote, aggressive prosecution of Christians with traditional biblical values, ignoring their conscientious objections and even secretly keeping tabs on Catholic priests. The Department of Justice task force found. Listen real close. The DOJ led task force to eradicate anti Christian bias released 14 findings confirming the 46th president's officials, quote, forced Christians with traditional biblical views to choose whether to live in accordance with their faith or to risk violating federal law. In a 200 page report, the task force concluded, quote, the Biden administration generally tolerated religious beliefs as long as they were privately held, but zealously pursued actions to limit Christians ability to act in accordance with their faith. Okay, so again, dude, what you're getting is, it's like, this is not just like, hey, man, we differ on marginal tax rates and how many roads we should build. So again, let me just quick theology of this and let's talk about the Bible. It's going to be real fun. Okay, here's why we can't do the thing of like, hey, we should just stay out of this stuff. A theologist, if you read your Bible, like, just zoom out. Satan targets thrones and dominions. That's like his strategy in the Bible. He targets thrones and dominions. That's what got him kicked out of heaven. He's like, that dude's on a throne. I like that throne. I want that throne. If you trace the demonic activity of the Old Testament, it is honestly disproportionately located in evil infestations, in government powers. So the demonic Egyptian, you know, powers that enslave God's people and kill all the babies and all the things you have, that you have. Babylon. The Ezekiel prophecy, since it's plenty, or shout out the Ezekiel prophecy that has a near. It has a near fulfillment and an eternal fulfillment. The Ezekiel prophecy that's about Satan's fall from heaven is actually in the near fulfillment. It's about a demonic king. So you're seeing this, this pattern. Then you flip to the New Testament. There's a reason that Satan tempts Jesus and he goes, hey man, I'll give you all the thrones and these nations because he targeted and took over all the thrones and political powers in the world. That's why the New Testament calls him, quote, the God of this world. Then you get the, we're doing a little theology of God and government real quick. Just stay with me. Then in the New Testament, primarily in the book of first Peter and in the book of Romans, you've got the Roman Empire, who at the time was supernatural nasty, is called Babylon. Why? Because it's going, hey, the same demonic spirit that empowered the Babylonian empire in the Old Testament, that same demonic spirit is like a principality in power over this empire now. So you have that, that plan and then, dude, you just read the. It's like in the book of Ephesians, you have this, the language of the New Testament for demonic powers. It calls them things like principalities and powers and rulers in high places. So what I want Christians to understand and then the book of Revelation is Satan, apparently at the end in eschatological views, he gets control of a one world government. So for Christians, you need to have your blinkers on. Hey dude, what Satan tries to do is infest government powers and then wield them for wicked godless purposes. So I just want to say, man, like when Christians adopt the, ah, we should just stay out of politics. What you're doing is Satan's going, thank you very much. Because I was trying to, to get in control of all that stuff that actually belongs to Jesus. Thank you very much for stepping aside and let me do my thing. So the big idea is if godly people don't, godless people will. So we are deciding in some measure, especially for Christian dads, dudes, moms, grandmoms, you are deciding in Some measure what cultural inheritance we will hand our children and our grandchildren and the future church in America. But whether or not we do our job as salt and light in this world. So no, we will not, quote, stay out of those things. Yes, we are going to lean into them. And yes, we actually have a strategy to try to mobilize not just live free nation, but churches to try to not let like a, you know, like, like an actual open heretic, you know, flip Texas. Yep. Any objections? Are we in?

[Carlos Arazo]

I want to know what the strategy is.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, we'll talk. We've built a website, this website. Basically, here's. Okay, here's the long short of it. Basically, dude, Christians avoid voting at a radically disproportionate level.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yep.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So it's like, it's. Dude, I think I read something like only like 40% of Christians vote. So here's the deal. Like in every. This is in presidential elections. In the last presidential election, it was estimated between 40 and 50 million Bible believing Christians didn't vote. I just want to put that in perspective. Like, presidential elections recently have been decided by like 2 to 4 million votes.

[Carlos Arazo]

Yep.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So I'm just going to let that sink in. In midterms, it's probably at least double that. Like 100 million, 80 million Christians, like, abdicate a spiritual responsibility to be salt and light in the world. So, like, honestly, dude, if Christians did their job, literally every election in America would go the way that best slowed societal decay. It's like, hey man, we just want to figure out a way, let's mobilize our people without the church losing its main focus. Our main focus is not political. Our main focus is preaching the gospel, making disciples, planting churches, building great families, and then we want to leverage them to be salt and light in the world that we're in. So we got a website. We're gonna do this deal where people can text vote. Actually, you can go ahead and do it now. You can text the word vote to the number 2041 and two things will happen. One, you can. Most people don't vote in midterms just because they forget when they are. I'll be honest with you, that's happened to me before. Oh, bro, I didn't even know that. So one, you can just, you can click a little button there. And we will only literally, we'll text you one time ever. And it will text every single person. Hey, man, here's a reminder. Midterm voting, start it so you don't forget. And then number two, a lot of people just don't know where. Where they vote. The midterms. Yeah. So they can go there. And we just. We built this website. I've been told it's the first of its kind where somebody can just put in their street address. We are not getting your information. Literally, nobody is keeping anybody's information. They can put in their street address, and it will, in two seconds, spit out for them when midterm voting starts for them where their specific address is supposed to vote. And number three, what documents where you live do you have to bring to be able to do it?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's so good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So it's gonna be awesome, man. Let's see what we do, man. We'll see if we can live. Free Nation can flip a. I think we can. Come on, man. We can do it.

[Carlos Arazo]

Let's go. Hey, I have a question for you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I will allow it.

[Carlos Arazo]

By the way, great job this weekend.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, thanks, dude. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Carlos Arazo]

Why did I make it to the sermon a lot?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We're gonna do this real fast. Yeah, let's go. Let's take a little trip together. Let's go. Indiana Jones. Real quick.

[Carlos Arazo]

Okay.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Of all. So we did Act 23 this week.

[Carlos Arazo]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So this is back to the new series. Back to. There is more, but we added. Did you notice? Endgame.

[Carlos Arazo]

Let's go. You a Marvel fan?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Not really.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Okay.

[Carlos Arazo]

I think it's a pretty good movie. Paul probably hates it, but go ahead.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

He hates Nickelback. He hates. Whoa.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

He's on the same level. Okay.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, let's do this.

[Carlos Arazo]

And then he hates his shot of Turin.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You know, I heard he.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Never mind.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Where you going?

[Carlos Arazo]

Oh, Jeremiah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Shout out. By the way, in the comments, people are starting to say that they're, like, complaining that we're being too mean to him about Israel.

[Carlos Arazo]

No, y'.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

All, I think it's hilarious. I do, too.

[Carlos Arazo]

It's him with a fake account.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I'm like Kevin Durant. I'm like Kevin Durant with burner accounts over here.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, let's go.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I think it's funny.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

For the record. Keep going. So the reason we're calling it. There's more. End game is from Acts 23 on is essentially Paul. Well, it is. The events of Acts 23 start the end game of Paul's life that lead to his head getting cut off, which, by the way, leads to the conversion of the Roman Empire. So we'll get to that. So essentially, what Paul does from Acts 23 on is he goes, hey, man, I'm willing to be the Photon torpedo that goes down to the ventilation shaft of the Death Star. If I can trade my life for the conversion of the Roman Emperor, which in turn might lead to the conversion of the Roman Empire. He's like, I'm willing to be that photon torpedo. You will see from Acts 23 to the end of the book, Paul intentionally does things where he could have avoided his own death. And he goes, actually, my goal is not to avoid death. My goal is to bring that guy to new life in Jesus Christ. So it's like his I did it on purpose. Kind of like how Iron man, you know, he trades his life to kill Thanos. That's kind of where we're going.

[Carlos Arazo]

Spoiler alert.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Spoiler alert. Sorry.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

You had enough time?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, you, that's on you. Paul is like, I'll to mix movie metaphors, I'll be the photon torpedo down the ventilation shaft of the Death Star. Okay, so a couple, couple of things about this passage that are really interesting. Number one, what you have right here is Paul gets in a bunch of trouble and he gets put in front of a group called the Sanhedrin. Paul here in a second is going to talk about who the Sanhedrin was because there are all these warring little factions within Judaism in the time of Acts and Jesus. And if you don't understand that, you really can't understand the passage. So Paul stands up in front of these dudes that are, you know, they're kind of getting ready to put him on trial potentially for his life. And he starts by saying men and brothers. He says men and brothers when typically what he would have said in Roman judicial system is rulers and elders. This is interesting little fun fact. You don't notice this stuff. The reason he says men and brothers, anybody know why?

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Because the Sanhedrin was made up of the Pharisees and the Sadducees and Paul had been a Pharisee. So Paul's subtly nodding to the fact like, hey, dude, I've been on your side of the bench before.

[Carlos Arazo]

We're on the same team.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, same team. Yeah, same. So he's got a little strategy going on. Now. There's the Pharisees here and there's the Sadducees. The Sadducees were almost like in modern day parlance, they were like the progressive Christians is kind of the vibe here, actually. Paul, will you go ahead and do your little quick snapshot of the. This is going to set this up for listeners. Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

In, in Judaism in general at that time, you had three main groups. Two of which are represented here. So you've got Sadducees. These were like your elite traditionalists in the sense of they only held that the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, also known as the Torah, were authoritative. And because in the those books you didn't have angels or demons or the Resurrection, they didn't believe in those things at all. But they were really minority, like single digits of the population. They were mainly high priest and just the priestly officials.

[Carlos Arazo]

Caiaphas.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, Caiaph. That would have been a Sadducee. And like Jewish historians actually say they weren't very much liked among the people, and people were, for the most part, rejected their doctrine. Yes. Way more popular were the Pharisees.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Now, real quick, I just want to say this about Sadducees. What's interesting is you kind of have the exact same dynamic now in modern American Christianity where it's like, because those dudes, Sadducees were usually like wealthy, highly educated cultural elites. So here's who you want to think of, like, in the same way, in America, vast majority of Christians in America, they're like Bible believing, cover to cover, whether they obey it or not. They're like, yeah, man, I'm all in heaven, hell, angels, demons, I'm all in on all the stuff. And then you got like, I'm not trying to take a shot at anybody. You got like a million, not a million. You have a couple hundred like Duke University Divinity School Christians who like, got, you know, they got more degrees in Fahrenheit. They're educated beyond their level of intelligence. And they're like, actually, you know. You know, we don't really know about most of the stuff in the Bible.

[Carlos Arazo]

It's not what you think it means.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, honestly, they're doing like, deconstruct, like on Team Satan, acting like they're playing for Team Jesus and actually deconstructing people's faith. But there's not many of them, but they're in positions of culturally elite power.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And they're like, kind of progressive. That's who the Sadducees are.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Exactly. They hold the keys of power at the highest levels. Then you had the Pharisees. These were more like lay, popular level teachers and influencers. And really we kind of think of the Pharisees as the bad guys in that day. They were the heroes because these were people who memorized, like, the Bible. They strenuously lived it out. And so just think of like your favorite Bible teachers Today, but maybe that aren't in positions of power. Think of people who have like a great podcast or like they go around and teach at conferences. These would have been the Pharisees of their day. They accepted the entire Hebrew Testament. So everything that we know in terms of what's called the Torah, the Neviim which is the prophets, and the Ketuvim, which is the writings, which by the way corresponds to the Protestant Old Testament.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So let me highlight that Protestant ode, by the way. I'm going to shout this out. I'm going to tease this. We got a react episode coming soon from Paul Cunningham to Father Mike on the creation of the Protestant Bible. So keep your heads on us.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Will I may or may not have just put that in there as a little teaser. Little teaser.

[Carlos Arazo]

And by the way, Paul the Apostle Paul was a Pharisee.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yep.

[Carlos Arazo]

Nicodemus.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yep.

[Carlos Arazo]

Joseph of Arimathea.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. Then also, one thing to keep in mind, again, obviously Jesus gave a lot of critiques towards Pharisees. One thing to remember, it's because of these guys that Judaism survives after the temple is destroyed. That because you have no temple to do sacrifices, which guess whose purvey that was? The Sadducees. So they lost their power. Then you've got the Pharisees, though, because they were big on living it out in all of life, that they were able then to pass that on to your everyday average Jew. One other group who not in this passage and not nearly as prominent as these other two, but they're. But they're still a presence at this time, were called the Essenes. These were like a separatist sect that lived in intentional communities in the wilderness areas. Think like monasteries. At this time, they thought the temple was corrupt and that all of society was corrupt. So the best thing they could do would be to withdraw from society and out into the wilderness. They were known for really ascetic practices, like being really strict and they are obsessed with purity. And they anticipated that the end of times was coming. So they were very apocalyptic in how they viewed their time.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

They were the ones. The Dead Sea Scrolls.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

They preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Exactly.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And obviously. Were you gonna talk about John the Baptist?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, I can.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. So John the Baptist. A lot of people, A lot of people do think John the Baptist was in a scene primarily for two reasons. One, he's out of the wilderness, so he's a separatist. By the way, I've been, and I'm not gonna make an Israel joke on you here, I've been to the little spot. Well, I'm getting roasted at the YouTube comments for being mean.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I think it's funny.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'll just say this, and I may have you edit this out.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

It's fun.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All the people saying is. It's all women who are saying that. I'm like, I don't think they understand how dudes, like, kind of roast each other. And that's how we love each other.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Just know real quick, I've got one country. The second you say it. The second I'm ready for it. On the other side of it, bro. I'm ready.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What'd you say?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

You've got one country. I'm just waiting till the day you mention a country or a place. I'm just ready. I'm ready to turn it on you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I want to know.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I'm not telling you. I just got to keep it a secret.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Oh, okay.

[Carlos Arazo]

He's ready, bro. Dang.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

For the next two months, you're, like, throwing out every country pop possible that you can into the podcast. Keep going, keep going.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Sorry. So, number one, he's a separatist. He's in the wilderness. If you ever get. It's Qumran.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Is that what it's called?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

The Qumran community, where the Dead Sea Scrolls were very similar to area that was the Essene encampment. So I've been out there. They're the ones. This is the second reason people think John the Baptist may have been an Essene. They're the ones that created the concept of baptism, from what I understand. And John the Baptist. So if you go to their little Qumran community, or whatever the community is called, they got these little baptismal pools, and obviously John the Baptist is the first guy that shows up on the scene doing baptism. So for those two reasons, a lot of people think he was. You got anything else?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

No, no. That was the third group that's prominent that day. But again, mainly, though, in terms of people that are influenced and that you see much more of in the Gospels and in the book of Acts are the Sadducees and the Pharisees are the two main groups. And Paul here brilliantly leveraged them against each other in order to esc. Really hairy scenario where he could have died. So brilliant.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, so let me. Yeah, let me talk about. So what Paul does is he gets put on trial here, and he goes, you know, men and brothers. It does a thing. And there's a dude named Ananas that is the high priest at this point. Now, if for our. Let's for our Bible nerds. This is not the Ananas from the Gospels, and it's not the ananas from Acts 5. So that gives. There's a lot of Herods and a lot of Ananas and a lot of Marys. So you gotta. This is a different one.

[Carlos Arazo]

There's three. I think this is the third one.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Three ananiasis.

[Carlos Arazo]

I believe so. Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. So Gospels, Acts 5 and this guy, right? That's right, yes. So he's a different guy. By the way, interesting. Josephus, Jewish historian, records this dude was super corrupt. You actually can see it in this passage where he tells. So Paul says, hey, man, you whitewashed wall. By the way, Paul's quoting Jesus and one of the Old Testament prophets, when he calls him that. And Ananias says, commands him to be struck on the mouth for violating the Old Testament law. You can tell he's corrupt because Ananias has Paul struck on the mouth for violating the law. Him having Paul struck on the mouth was a violation of the Old Testament law. So he was like a bad dude who would weaponize the OT law to, like, just kind of for his personal willpower. He. Interestingly, when Paul says God will strike, he says to Ananias, God will strike you, you whitewashed tomb. Some Bible scholars think that was actually a prophetic word because this dude Ananias, in a few years, he gets hunted and killed by these Jewish little Jewish ninjas, these Sakari dudes, for his, like, relationship with the Roman Empire. So some people think Paul was actually giving a prophetic word when he said, God's gonna strike you. So you got that. And then Paul does this brilliant thing where what he says is. Now remember, for listeners, you got the Sadducees who don't believe in angels, demons, or resurrection, which is why they were sad. You see, that's the preacher joke. Thank you.

[Carlos Arazo]

That's great.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Thank you. And then the Pharisees, who did. So Paul, he's so smart. He's a little mischievous. He goes, you know, actually, it's because of my belief in the resurrection that I'm on trial right now. And it splits. So the Sadducees start. The Pharisees start fighting the Sadducees. And so Paul does the. The enemy of Mindemi as my friend. There you go.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And he's.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm with the Pharisees. And they start fighting. They fight each other instead of killing Paul.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I love that the Pharisees are like, we see nothing wrong with this guy.

[Carlos Arazo]

That's a good point. Interesting point.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Paul Actually kind of a great dude, so. And I won't go into the rest of it. You have an assassination attempt on Paul's life on the back half of this chapter. By the way, another fun fact. The guys that make a little death vow to kill Paul, a lot of Bible scholars think they were. There's a Jewish group called the Sicarian Carry these little daggers around with them, which is where we get the name of that movie from about 15 years ago called Sicario. I didn't. I hated that movie. I do not recommend it. About an assassin that came from these little Jewish ninjas and they, you know, so that's a little interesting fact. But long story short, Paul gets away, but he stays under control of the Roman judicial system. And this leads to. To his eventual trial before the Roman emperor and death. Now, Paul Cunningham, what you have right here in this passage, and I want you to show where it dovetails, is you have some stuff here about the sovereignty of God. Okay. What things is God in control of? Is God in control of all things? If your answer to that is yes, is he in control of evil things? If so, does that make him the author of evil? What about kids getting cancer? Did he cause that? That if he's in control of things? Well, doesn't that mean we're just robots? So this passage intertwines with a lot of concepts about sovereignty. Paul Cunningham, not to step onto any controversial landmines, would you walk us through maybe general views of God's sovereignty?

[Carlos Arazo]

Well, hey, Lit Free nation. Quick pause before we jump back in. Join us this weekend for Mother's Day on May 9th and 10th as we take time to celebrate the incredible women in our lives. Start making plans to bring your mom or mother figure to church for a powerful message and a special gift. Again, if you live within driving distance to any of our physical locations here at Lake Point, come hang out, come visit, come find us at our first time guest tent. We'd love to give you a special gift as well. And now back to the podcast.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, a few views.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Really? I'd say you've got two main views. I like to think of them as like lanes. Two main lanes that good Jesus loving, faithful Christians can go down. But with each of those lanes, there is a ditch on either side that faithful Christians really cannot go down. And they're dangerous and can lead you to some really bad places. So first view is what is often known as compatibilism. The reason it's known as compatibilism is because it's the idea that Going alongside of each other are human responsibility and divine sovereignty. We are responsible for our actions, and yet God is sovereignly in control so that we do what we want to do. And yet what God wants to do also takes place and occurs. And so both are 100%. And some people are like, well, how can that be? This is where I like to point out of. We believe this in so many places. One just in a general tension of we believe that Jesus is 100% vine and 100% human. We can't explain fully how, but we believe it because we see it in scripture. And yet when it comes to this issue, people want to reject it. But I'm like, you see both in scripture, you see it in this text of how he says, you must stand before me, you must testify in Rome.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And he uses the word must, must.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

It is day. The word is day in Greek means it is necessary. You have to. And yet what we also see is human actions that gives him that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What's the he that says that?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Oh, it literally says that the Lord stood by him, said, you must testify in Roman. Jesus said it. Yes, that happens. That's where the story of.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I did mention this.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

No go.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There's a. What's called a theony in this passage where the exalted Jesus appears to Paul. Is it a dream I forgot, or

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

is it just vision night? The Lord stood by him.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We don't know. Yeah, But Jesus Christ appears and literally says, hey, man, you must. You're going to do this.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yep. But we see human actions in the story that lead to it. Later in the book of Acts, there's the famous shipwreck scene where it's basically same thing, goes to Paul and says, don't worry, you're going to make it through. Paul says, hey, God has revealed to me that everyone here and here is safe. And yet when people start to abandon ship, he says, no one can leave. We're all going to die. Well, which is it, Paul? Is it that it's all definitely going to happen or there's certain things we have to do?

[Carlos Arazo]

Yes.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Acts 4 going backwards. Not Paul, but just in the. You still see this with the apostles. They're under threat of persecution. They say in their prayer, sovereign Lord, Sovereign Lord. So they immediately appealed to his sovereignty and the fact that he's in control while they're in the midst of persecution, which, by the way, persecution was evil. It was bad. And yet somehow God was still in control. They say the Jews and the Gentiles gathered together to conspire against Your anointed one, Jesus. The most evil act in human history is what they're describing. So let's just say this so we'll start to get to some of the practical stuff that I know this can lead into is like, I've gotten questions

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

like, wait, wait, are you gonna finish that passage?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Oh, I am.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I'm gonna say I'm leaving it intentional because this is an important thing. Because some people will say, why do God. Why does God let bad things happen to good people? Whether it is someone getting cancer or, you know, tornado taking out homes, or even hurting, you know, killing people. And by the way, that's where we don't need to get these abstract, lofty answers that we needed. These are real people that have experienced real hurt. But what I've begun doing when I've gotten that question is and saying, hey, maybe the best way we can answer it is ask, why did the worst thing ever happen to the best person ever?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

So, like, I don't want to say specifically of why God may have allowed certain things to happen in your life, but let's just ask, what does the Bible say about why did the worst thing imaginable happen to the best person ever? Why did the cross happen to Jesus? So right there you get this idea. If they gather together and conspired against him and put him to death. And by the way, in the Book of Acts, they're held responsible for that. They are commanded to repent.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And that is why in AD 70, Jerusalem is destroyed and the wrath of God falls on 500,000 to a million people in the city. Because God holds them responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

100%.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And yet.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And yet in the same sentences as they gathered together and conspired against him, and they did what your predetermined plan in hand led them to do.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Speaking about God.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Speaking about God. So which is it? Is it human responsibilities or divine sovereignty?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yes. Compatible.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yes. Even like one other place that maybe doesn't have the stakes in terms of the evil there. But again, that I think everyone accepts, at least every Bible believing Christian accepts. Were there dozens of authors over hundreds and thousands of years that wrote scripture and they wrote what they wanted to write to the audience they were writing to?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yes.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And does scripture say that they. Everything they wrote was inspired by God so that God also had them write exactly what he wanted to write?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yes, that's right.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And so how do we explain something? This is where it's your idea of, like, if God is the Size of an ocean and I'm the size of cocaine. There's gonna be certain things that don't fit in and we can't explain, but yet we see them clearly in scripture. So there's compatibilism.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait, before you finish this compatibilism, my favorite compatibilism quote I'm sure you've heard it before, is somebody asked Charles Spurgeon one time, how do you reconcile divine sovereignty and human responsibility? And his response was, I don't reconcile friends. I don't gotta reconcile friends.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Can never top spur.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You can't stop.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

You just can't. You can't toss her. Actually, real quick, it's analogy of. Because some people when they hear this, like, so you don't believe in free will? Oh, no. Like compatibilism does believe in free will if you define it a specific way. I am free. If I do what aligns with my desires, if I do something I want to do, then I'm free. So for example, if I picked up this cup because I wanted to, then I am free. Now if someone were taking my hand and forcing me to pick it up, then I wouldn't be free. But if I do what I want to do, then I am free. So the idea here is that God has us do somehow allowing and sometimes causing certain things what he wants to have happen. And yet we do what we want to do and they are somehow compatible, even if we can't perfectly explain it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I will just. Because really, if you're not picking up on this, Paul just mentioned this. We're really talking about man. Should Christians believe in what is called an unlimited free will? And the answer to that is really no. No. And some people really object to that. And we're going to talk about that here in a second. But whenever somebody does that, like I've gotten that question in a lobby before when I've talked about sovereignty in a sermon. And whenever somebody does that, I'll be like, hey man, you don't even believe you have free will. Like, yes, I do. Okay. I'm like, okay, be taller. Okay. How old are you? 46. Be 32. We all understand limits. We are constrained.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

We are constrained.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You keep going on views.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Now let me give there's a ditch. In a sense, it's another view, but really I would say it's a ditch of this view. The ditch would be what's called hard determinism or hard sovereignty. This really is the idea that we are robots, that we really have no sense of true human free will. That it's just an illusion. And yet the problem with that is, like the Bible.

[Carlos Arazo]

Who believes that, though?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hard Calvinists.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Hard Hyper Calvinists.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. Hard Calvinist.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. Both of the ditches are a little bit rare. The other one has more people in it, but we'll get to that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'll say this. Not as popular, actually, let me say this. Hard Calvinists and atheists. And I really. Listen, people do not. Okay, here's why I say this. Listen, actually, I'm glad we're talking about this. You need to get this. This is one of the primary arguments against secularism, naturalism or atheism. Because if you think about this, what an atheist believes is literally everything in the universe is cause and effect in a closed system. Everything that has ever happened is because those two atoms bumped into those two atoms or in your brain there was this chemical reaction. And that actually your quote unquote choice to love your wife, actually that just happened because this chemical reaction took place in your brain and those atoms bumped into those atoms. So what I would say is the people that actually most believe in hard determinism are atheists that believe that every thought, every feeling, every decision you ever make is actually just because atoms collided in a certain way.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I forget his name, but there was actually an atheist philosopher at USC who basically said that free will is an illusion and that because of our DNA and everything. And so basically he said, theoretically, no one should go to jail. Now he said we have to, to keep people safe, but actually they shouldn't be held responsible for their decisions because it was just predetermined. Except that was God in mind kind of thing. So the problem with hard sovereignty determinism is the Bible. You got passages like Deuteronomy 30, 19, I have set before you life and death, therefore choose life. The implication is that he's giving them a choice and he's compelling them to make a choice as if they are actually respons. Matthew 23:37. How often would I have gathered your children and you were not willing? This is Jesus speaking to the people in Jerusalem. Isaiah 1:18. Come now, let us reason together. You don't reason with a robot.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go.

[Theo Von]

Or with the puppet.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go.

[Carlos Arazo]

Yeah. And more than reasoning Paul as well, some philosophers would argue, well, the reason why this is a big deal is because if you don't have volition or if you don't have choice, you don't have love.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, I'll get to that. Because there's an issue though, with that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

If you view, if you view freedom in a certain way. There's potential issues that we may get into that it's a little bit nerdy. I'll let you guys do the trump thing of whether. The trump. The trump card of whether we do go there or not.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Do you want me?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I think I actually might be good here, because I'll go and put my cards there. I'm a compatibilist. I think if you were listening to this, you could probably tell we were sad.

[Carlos Arazo]

I'm a hard Calvinist.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Sorry, Brooke. He didn't actually choose to love you. Well, I just changed him. I just changed your opinion.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

So I'm a competitor.

[Carlos Arazo]

I'm sold. I'm sold.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And so when people are like, well, are you saying that God gave me this cancer or that God killed my child? I'm like, hey, we gotta always be really careful because God is not the author of evil. That's very clear in Scripture. And yet what we also see is that he is ultimately in control of all things. Job went through the absolute worst things we can imagine. He lost his kids, he was afflicted with these diseases, and he lost his possessions. I mean, just awful. And yet he says, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be his name. And then here's what's interesting. And then in the context, it says, in none of the things that Job said, did he sin and go. Because if he had said something wrong, you would think, oh, no, no, that was wrong.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Obviously, in Job one, you get the heavenly courtroom scene where Satan goes, hey, God, am I allowed to go do all this bad stuff to Job? And God permits it. It was all under his ordained sovereignty.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Exactly. And that's so I will say on that is, I do actually think the word permitting is a good idea in the sense of saying, yeah, when it comes to things that are evil, he permits it. But we have to remember that if he truly did not, in a sense, want to allow it to happen, he could have stopped it. So anything he permits is still by his will. We can't always understand how. But that's where you get Romans 8. The idea of God is able to work all things together for good and that nothing can separate us from his love. I think this is a very practical, maybe a pastoral moment because we've been l in philosophical land. What this means is that nothing can come to me except through the hands of my good and wise Father.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Amen.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

So everything that comes to me has to pass through his hands, including evil things that while he is not the author of He Letting them come to me is somehow a part of his plan.

[Carlos Arazo]

So maybe it wasn't sent by God's hand, but it was for sure filtered through God's hand.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I think at the end of the

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

day, I know that's tough. Yeah. There just ain't no way to read a Bible without that awareness. There ain't a way. Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

So the other side of this is what's often known as. So you have compatibilism, which is the idea of human freedom and divine sovereignty are somehow compatible, even if we can't fully understand how. There's a second side which puts more of an accent and an emphasis on the human responsibility part of it. This is often known as libertarianism or libertarian free will. So earlier we used my cup and I said, for a compatibilist, I am free. If I picked this up because I wanted to, a libertarian person would say, I am free. If I could have done otherwise, simply that. And if nothing outside of me or inside of me ultimately determined whether I would do it or not, it's something that I can do otherwise and that I have the ultimate deciding factor over my emotions and over anything else that comes outside of me. This is how I think you're probably your average ordinary, modern day person thinks of freedom. And it sounds really good. But I will say that there are some problems with this even. Let's not even go to the Bible. Let's just talk about our relationships with our spouses. Like if our spouses said, hey, so why do you love me? You're going out for a date for Jana's birthday and she asked you, you know, why. Why did you choose me? And you say, well, Janet, you know, at the end of the day, I just considered all the pros and cons and I had some emotions in different directions. But at the end of the day, I just was sovereign over my emotions and I just decided, you know what? I'm just choosing you because I choose you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

How's that going for you?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Not great. Not great and not true. Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And. Well, let's also go to a different place. Let's go to like Nazi Europe. And it's like, okay, why did you shelter the Jews? Well, you know, again, I just weighed all the pros and cons and I had some conflicting emotions. But at the end of the day, I just separated myself from those emotions and I just decided to hide them. Would we consider those really good moral people? No. What you want to hear, what Janet wants to hear is, you know what I can't even explain it. I was just irresistibly drawn to you. My emotions overwhelmed me and I couldn't have chosen any other way. Same thing with the people in Europe that hide Jews. And so, so part of this is what sounds really good in theory. In practice, if you actually said it out loud, it really does not sound good out loud. Second thing, and you kind of hit this, it's hard to really just reconcile with parts of scripture.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, there's too many.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

There's just too many even. Like you have David who is punished for the census, and yet it says that God incited him through Satan to take it. And that's one of many. And so you have a few options. A lot in there is that you could say, well, those are exceptions. If you say that, maybe they are. I don't believe that because it seems to be more the norm of how God works in the Bible. The problem is, and this is where I'll bring yours back in, if you make the argument that the only way God could be loving or just is to work that way. If you said that these are exceptions, then say, oh, God is only is just 99% of the time.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go. Because there's exceptions.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

So there's an issue there.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

But I will say you can be a good Jesus loving person and land there, because I was.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Is.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

It is really hard in an experiential level when you see some of the evil and like, oh, are you doing open theism? I am.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Do it real quick. And then we need to move on.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

We need to move on. Okay, so that's your other lane. This is the fourth view. And this is a massive ditch.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

This is one that Christians should not adopt. You should avoid at all. Run, Run, run.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Should not adopt. And that is this. They also believe in libertarian free will, but here's their thought is, is, hey, if God knows all things and he knew I was gonna pick up this cup and he knows everything perfectly, then actually I don't have free will. Because at the end of the day I had to pick up the cup. Cause he saw it was gonna happen. I really, truly had no other choice. So to protect free will and to protect from having to deal with really tough situations that we've been talking about, here's what they say. The future is open because God actually doesn't know the future.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's why it's called open theism. Essentially what they believe is God's essentially playing a big chessboard and he waits. He doesn't know it. He didn't even know what you're gonna do. He waits to see what you're gonna do. And then he plays a little chess board. And because he's better than humanity, he's gonna eventually get it where he wants it. But he's playing chess. Exactly.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

He knows all the possibilities, but he actually does not know what you're gonna do until you do it. And like, just to kind of give you some street level examples of how this sounds.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Cause give us one.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. This says this. He would be less of a God if he couldn't change his intentions when he wants to or be open to new ideas from intelligent creative beings. He's in. And what that person says, what's that from? I'm not gonna say, but it's from a very popular Christian author, one of the authors.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We actually intentionally chose that quote. And we don't love hitting people by name, but honestly, the reason we chose that legitimately, what you just read is from one of the best selling Christian authors in America right now, who has some other amazing things to say, by the way. But that not a win. That is actual open theism and is. Is no bueno.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. Because literally what I said, God could, would be less of a God if he weren't more like a human.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Which is a bad idea. All right, here's the biggest problem, like with this is again, just the. Oh, go ahead.

[Carlos Arazo]

No, no, no. Just as we line up. Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

The biggest problem with this is again the Bible, the same thing with the other ditch. And that is like for example, in Isaiah 46, the way God distinguishes himself from the false idols is the very fact that he does know all things. Also, Psalm 139, 16 in your book were written the days that were formed for me. So the idea in scripture is that

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

he's clearly aware all prophecy is based on God's awareness.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Exactly.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Of all future events, somebody's just, you

[Carlos Arazo]

know, I see you as we land. And Paul nailed this. You know, the reason why this matters is because what you believe about sovereignty actually makes a huge difference in your life. Not if, but when you experience something that in your mind, you have to, quote, unquote, reconcile the grace and the goodness of God with whatever it is that you're going through. For me personally, this is two of my favorite quotes on this. AW Tozer said, to know that nothing happens in God's world apart from God's will may frighten the godless, but it stabilizes the saints. Charles Spurgeon. The sovereignty of God is the pillow upon which the Child of God rests his head at night, giving perfect peace.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Amen.

[Carlos Arazo]

Jonathan Edwards did this thing as well on this topic because he said, hey, if you're going through something extremely difficult, he said, and you're a Christian, three things are true. And this is what you need to keep in mind. Number one, your bad things will always work out for good. Romans 8, 28. Number two, your good things cannot be taken away. You are a son. You have the Holy Spirit, eternity with Jesus. All promises of God are yes and amen. You have the riches of God's glory for you. Nobody can take that away from you. And number three, because number one and number two are true, the best is yet to come.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wow.

[Carlos Arazo]

Sovereignty of God.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So interesting to tie this on a bow. And then I want to talk about, about this real quick. Ben Sasse obviously is dying pancreatic cancer right now. And you want to talk about a guy showing everybody how a Christian man dies. You watch Ben sass right now, 16 minutes, that dude is gone everywhere, on every podcast in America and it's blowing up and he's getting access and he is testifying to the goodness of Jesus Christ in his. I think it was, was, was it on 60 Minutes or was it with Ross do it on New York Times?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Both. And he just. 60 minutes release this week.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Ross do it. How do you say it?

[Carlos Arazo]

That.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I don't know how to say that. New York Times. Yeah.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

60 Minutes is amazing.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Somebody asked him about it and Ben Sass's response was, there is not one rogue cell in the universe. He's dying of pancreatic cancer. Because there is not one rogue. And that's a comfort for him. Yes, because he knows no matter what bad thing is happening to me, it's in God's hands and he can redeem it for something. Amen. Amen.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Amen.

[Theo Von]

Amen.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, can I riff on something on this passage? And then we're going to talk. So this is. We're going to talk talk. Because this actually ties in this passage ties in to some of the abortion stuff we're gonna talk about. That was a massive flashpoint online this week. And then we're. And then we're gonna gear shift again. And I wanna. This Theo von thing. So real quick, somebody pull up. Can you pull it up? Acts 23, real quick.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I got it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I wanna read the exact passage. What I did with the sermon this week is Paul goes at the beginning of this thing, he goes, where is it it? He's in Acts 23 and he says about his conscience, look, where he says

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

in verse one.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Is it verse? Yeah, yeah, there it is, verse one. That's a good place to start. He starts by going looking intently at the council of brothers. I have lived my life before God in all good conscience. Now this is kind of thing your normal Bible reader will just skip and miss. There is a whole theology of consciences that Paul develops more than any other Christian author. So I'm going to do this in 120 seconds, two minutes. If you read Paul, he defines four different types of consciences that somebody can have. And that's really what is being touched on here. First of all, if you don't know what a conscience is, a conscience is the inner courtroom of the heart. That's how J.I. packer talked about it, the inner courtroom of the heart. It's the moral courtroom inside of you. So here's the theology of it. In the same way, there's a courtroom in heaven where God is going to justly judge the difference between right and wrong. The book of Ecclesiastes says God has put eternity into the heart of man. So just like there's a courtroom in heaven, there's a courtroom in your heart. Those courtrooms are not perfectly aligned. I'm going to talk about that here in a second.

[Abortion Advocate]

Second.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

But that's the thing inside of even lost people where it's like, man, when I do some things I feel guilty. When I do some things I feel ashamed. What is that? That comes from your God given conscience because he's put eternity in your heart. By the way, I will say this. What you see with a lot of modern therapy is because secular, our therapeutic worldview does not have a way to deal with guilt and shame. We as Christians, how do we deal with guilt and shame? It's like, dude, I'm looking at Jesus. He was crucified for my sin. He has taken my guilt, he has separated me from my transgressions and he has removed my shame. So when I feel guilty or ashamed, I can acknowledge that what I did is actually deserving of guilt. And I'm feeling appropriate shame because what I did was wrong. But I have a way to deal with that. I go, jesus was crucified for this thing, man, and he made me clean. Secular people have no way to deal with guilt or shame. So secular therapists, what they do, this is really important is they spend all of their time trying to silence the consciences of people because they got no way to deal with it. So this is why you kind of get this vibe in modern a lot of not all of it. A lot of modern therapy that all guilt is bad. Anyone who has ever made you feel ashamed, it was wrong and toxic. All shame is toxic. And you need to cut out anybody from your life that's ever made you feel ashamed. Okay, no, that's actually not true. Like, sometimes you should feel guilt, and that's actually a sign of something good. Sometimes you should feel shame. That's a sign of something good. When the conscience caliber. So really quick, four types of consciences. Number one, he talks about it here. A clear conscience. This is when you feel what God feels and you care about what God cares about. So it's like, I do bad things, I feel bad, I do good things, I feel good as the Holy Spirit is doing the right stuff in me. Okay, that's one. Number two, in Titus 1:15 and Romans 1:18, Paul talks about a defiled conscience. So this is when in the courtroom of your heart, there's a. You got a. You got a crooked judge. And what a crooked judge does is he calls. He calls guilty people innocent and innocent people. Guilty, guilty. So if some people, their conscience becomes so defiled that actually they feel good when they do bad things and they feel bad about people doing good things. Titus 1:15 says, to the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure because both their minds and their consciences are defiled. By the way, we don't have time to talk about it. This is what the New Testament means when it talks about how their God is their stomach and they glory in their shame. It's like, hey, man. Some generations and societies get so defiled in their conscience that they start cheering, celebrating and affirming wicked, degraded, and evil things that they start throwing parades and having an entire celebration months for things that are actually like, evil. That's a defiled conscience. Number three is a seared conscience. This is First Timothy 4:2. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. So, like, if you're a steak guy, I'm gonna eat a steak. I'm taking Jan out for a birthday tonight. That's why I got a shirt with a button on and no hat. I'm a steak guy. And what a lot of times what a good steak cook will do is they'll put that steak on a real, real, real high heat. Real high heat heat. 30 seconds on each side, 60 seconds on each side. And that exposure to high heat, it sears the exterior of the steak and it makes it a little harder so that nothing can penetrate it, and it traps all those juices in there. Sometimes if somebody keeps doing wicked and evil things long enough, it's like their conscience is exposed to this high heat long enough that it becomes hard. And now the love of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit can't actually pierce your conscience anymore. So you get to a spot where you can sin and not feel bad about it at all. That is a very, very dangerous place to be. So I will just say this. Like, sometimes I'll have people in the lobby where they did something. Honestly, usually it's an affair. And they'll grab me and they'll be like, dude, they can't sleep. They feel an agony over what they've done. And they'll feel such a conviction that, like, hey, man, I feel so bad. Like, does this. This means I'm. This mean I'm not saved? And I can't speak always to that, But I will say in general, you feeling terrible is not a sign of you not being saved. It's a sign that you are. It means that your conscience is working. And actually, a sign of not being saved is not that you feel terrible when you do terrible things. It's that you feel nothing when you do terrible.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So that's a seared conscience. Now we're gonna. This dovetails was something that happened and went crazy viral this week. I'm about to show you on full display not only what an individual, but honestly what a large portion of our society has. A seared conscience. All right, so this went crazy viral this week. This is a dude named Brandon Gill. Is he a senator? Congress, Congressman? Anybody know? I can't remember which one he is.

[Carlos Arazo]

Congressman.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Congressman. Congressman. This dude's funny. When you first hear him, he sounds like a dumb frat guy, but actually, he's brilliant.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I've seen this a few times. I'm like, that dude is surgically brilliant. So here's what's going on. He's got somebody testifying before Congress, and he's. I think he's a Christian dude with convictions about, you know, life. And they're testifying about. It's a pro abortion person person. Watch what he does here. And one, you're going to see what a seared conscience in the person that he's questioning. Watch what a seared conscience looks like. And then I want to show you how Satan does this real quick. Okay? So pull that up real quick. Brandon Gill, you got Trinity.

[Interviewer]

You're an advocate for abortion for Abortion policy. What's your favorite type of abortion?

[Abortion Advocate]

I am an advocate for patients having access to the full realm of reproductive healthcare.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pause. Okay, real quick. Do you notice? Now, real quick, I want to show you a few things. Did you notice? She's like, I don't call it abortion. I call it reproductive health care. All right, now check this out, dude. I want you to watch. Here's how Satan creates a seared conscience in somebody. So the Bible says, Satan's the father of lies. One of the ways he lies is he packages evil things as good and packages good things as evil. So watch. You're going to see this constantly. It's this, you know, from high school, debate team. Whoever controls the terms wins the debate. So if, hey, I don't want to call it abortion, I definitely don't want to call it murder. Let's package something evil in a good term. We're going to call it reproductive health care. And I will just say this is going to have a bit of an edge to it. Calling abortion healthcare is like calling rape lovemaking or like calling slavery job creation. I'm just gonna let that sit for a second. Now, keep going. Check this out.

[Interviewer]

But do you have a preferred method of abortion that you like?

[Abortion Advocate]

I do not.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Brace yourself.

[Interviewer]

Let me read through a couple different methods, and I want to get your take on how much you like these. The first type is called a suction abortion. This is when the cervix is dilated and a strong suction, 29 times the power of a household vacuum cleaner container, tears the baby's body apart and sucks it through the hose into a container. Do you prefer that method?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Watch your face.

[Abortion Advocate]

I stand by my former testimony.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Keep watching her face.

[Interviewer]

It sounds kind of gross.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You can't look at him.

[Interviewer]

Sounds pretty gruesome. Do you agree? It does to me.

[Abortion Advocate]

I stand by how I answered your question.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pause, pause, pause. Now what you're gonna this. Listen. If you're listening. This is gonna be hard to listen to, but what you're watching. Here's what he's doing. That's brilliant. Again, he's tearing the mask off. What? The father of lies has covered an evil thing. In a good term. He's ripping the mask off it and forcing you to deal with the moral reality of what's actually happening. Okay, now keep going. Watch this accurately.

[Interviewer]

Okay, what about this one? This one is called dilation and curettage. After dilation of the cervix, a sharp looped knife is inserted into the uterus. The baby's body Is cut into pieces and extracted often by suction. Do you prefer that method?

[Abortion Advocate]

But I believe we are here to talk about is the face act. We are not here to talk.

[Interviewer]

I'm asking you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You're an abortion advocate.

[Interviewer]

I'm asking you if you prefer delation and curettage method.

[Abortion Advocate]

I am access to reproductive health care advocate.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Whoever controls the debate.

[Interviewer]

You don't want to abortion itself. Why is that?

[Abortion Advocate]

I would prefer to talk about the reason that the committee called the hearing.

[Interviewer]

Is it because it's uncomfortable to talk about?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Watch it. Pause. She can't. She's doing everything in her power to make sure the reality of what's happening is not stated. Why? Because that's what the father of lies does. Let me hide the evil and cover it over and package it with a sanitized good term reproductive health care. Keep going.

[Abortion Advocate]

I would prefer.

[Interviewer]

It should be uncomfortable.

[Abortion Advocate]

I would prefer if you would let me finish my state to talk about the freedom of access to clinic entrances act. Which is.

[Interviewer]

We're talking about what that access gets. How about this one? It's called dilation and evacuation. Forceps are inserted into the uterus, grabbing and twisting the baby's body to dismember him or her. If the head is too large, it must be crushed in order to remove it. Do you prefer that method?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's tough.

[Abortion Advocate]

I would prefer to talk about the reason the hearing was called and the basis of my expert test.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Keep watching her face.

[Interviewer]

It's uncomfortable to hear. This isn't is. You can tell because it's barbaric and evil. How about this one? It's called the saline injection. It's when a 20% salt solution is injected through the mother's abdomen into the baby's amniotic fluid. The baby's skin is burned off. The baby ingests the solution and dies of salt poisoning, dehydration and hemorrhaging of the brain. Do you prefer that method?

[Abortion Advocate]

I would prefer to talk about the subject of here hearing.

[Interviewer]

This is the subject of the hearing. This is about protests outside of abortion clinics. I'm asking you about abortion.

[Abortion Advocate]

I stand by my prior testimony.

[Theo Von]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

I. I wouldn't want to talk about this either if I were you. Because it is barbaric and evil.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That wow is a seared conscience. And I will just say one thing. Proverbs 8:36. All who hate me love death. That's what that is right there. That's what that is. So what you're seeing is when somebody can look a barbaric evil reality. In the face. And they're around it so much that they stop feeling its reality anymore. It's a seared conscience. It's a seared conscience. And listen, that can happen to you.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That can happen to you on anything. Anything.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, it's. I remember reading a book by a guy named Paul Brandt. I think it was Surgeon General. His specialty was leprosy. And you know how leprosy patients die? They don't feel pain.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

The nerve endings die. And so they could put their arm in a boiling pot of water, wouldn't even know it. And so they literally die because they can't feel pain. Because pain is the sign to you that something is wrong with your body that needs to be fixed. Guilt is to the soul what pain is to the body.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And so, yeah, to your point, it's like, I'm just feeling even heavier right now thinking about it. Is to your point earlier, if you are not feeling guilt over these things, that's a dangerous sign.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

And I think it's. That's. That's. That's where your place, where it just. If that's. If that's anyone listening or watching this, maybe even just stop right now and just say, God, awaken my heart.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Search me.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

I don't feel like, search me, oh, God, and like, awaken these feelings. Convict me. Show me my sin. Because that is a dangerous place to be, man.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Let me. I cannot move on. Before I just say this. There was a. A lady POD Listen center that shot our team. By the way, I, I all. Everybody needs to know. All of my social media accounts are monitored by tons of people. Like, so I have no private DMS with anybody. And she messaged our account. And she had, she had. Had an abortion. And listening to the podcast, she fell under conviction for what she'd done many years ago. And, dude, it, man, it was hard to even read. She just said, she said, I did this. And she was like, I asked Jesus to forgive me. Does that. But does that mean I'm going to hell? And, man, if I'm her. If I'm talking to her, what I want to say is, hey, you are not defined by your sins anymore. That the Bible says that as far as the east is from the west, so has God separated you from your transgressions? And that Jesus Christ was crucified for your sin? And what I would say to that person is, actually, you and me are not any different. Different because I killed somebody, too. My sin put Jesus on the cross. And it was my sin that held him there, like we sing in the hymn. And so what I would say to you is that the same love that died for you on the cross is the one that separates you from that sin. Not only are you forgiven, not only will you be hugging Jesus in heaven someday, but when that woman steps into heaven, she will be greeted by the son or the daughter she never met to the glory of God, because he is sovereign over all things.

[Carlos Arazo]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Now.

[Carlos Arazo]

Yeah, let's think. Just when somebody, you know, when somebody gets an abortion, they say, you must die so I can live. Christ said, I must die so you can live.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right. Well, we'll do this one last one and then we're going to talk to the other one.

[Carlos Arazo]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

The fourth type of conscience, again, hard left emotional term, is this is a big one for a lot of Christians. I don't know why this is particularly particularly. Yeah, a weak conscience. It's 1 Corinthians 8. It says, however, not all possess this knowledge. But he's talking about food sacrifice to idols. Should you eat it? But some, through former association with idols, eat food that is really offered to an idol. And their conscience, being weak, weak is defiled. So he's saying, hey, man, what a weak conscience is, is that person, for a variety of reasons, is when they do something that's actually not a sin, but they have an overactive, over sensitive conscience and their conscience tells them they sinned when they actually didn't do anything wrong. That's a weak conscience. And I will say, like most super judgy Christians you may meet, it's usually they got a weak conscience. And you know, somebody has a weak conscience when they want to bind everybody else's conscience by their own. So whatever is the sensitivity level of their conscience, everyone else has to have the exact same sensitivity level. That's a weak conscience. So there you go, man. We don't want those. We want a clear conscience like the Apostle Paul had.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

That's good.

[Carlos Arazo]

Well, speaking of that, I think Theo Vaughn talks about that in his video.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's why I want to talk about this. Set it up. You want to set it up?

[Carlos Arazo]

Yeah, I mean, so this is a video from Theovan, a super popular influencer top podcast right now went viral basically where he took a moment and somebody asked him a question and he just started opening up about his personal view on, you know, Jesus and how it applies to his life. And so, you know, it's like two minute video and we're about to watch it, dude.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You watch. Hey, I'm just going to say this. First of all, I love this dude, but I'm a rural Kentucky kid. Every time I see him, I'm like, that's like all my buddies in high school, I, I, I love this guy. Like, I'd be friends with that guy. You watch, man. God's gonna save that guy and God's gonna use that guy. You watch, dude. Okay, so you, you tell me, Carlos, I'm gonna let you play qb. There's part of me that wants to play the whole thing uninterrupted and then go back through it. Let's do it. Okay. We're gonna play the whole thing uninterrupted because I want the emotional reality of it to land on you. And then we're gonna go back and just real quick, I want to react to this sucker real quick. Okay, so here's the whole thing. So you just feel the weight of what he's wrestling with. So he's not a, he's not saved yet. And he is very clearly God's chasing this guy. What's that CS Lewis quote?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Oh, he was writing to a guy who had questions about faith. And he said, said, God is after you. I doubt you'll escape, Theovon.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

God is after you. I doubt you're going to escape. So here you go. Watch this.

[Theo Von]

I don't know, I'm starting to just feel something different. And then I was also, I was, I was looking on this Bible and there's a story called John 5, and it's about a guy who's at these pools. And some people follow the Bible, some people don't. That's fine. This is just a story that I'm reciting here. And, and Jesus is, is at the, is at the pools, and it's in Bethesda. And they're like, there's a sick man there, and he's been sick for a long time. And, and Jesus at. And Jesus asks him, do you want to be healed? He asks him, do you want to be healed?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

This is a master class right here.

[Theo Von]

And that's a crazy question because,

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

you

[Theo Von]

know, if I get healed, then I'm different. You know, if somebody gets healed, they have a new story. So that's just been something that I've been having to ask myself. It's like, yeah, do I want to be healed? Do I really want something different? And sometimes a lot of the answer is, no, I don't. I want something different. But I don't wanna, I don't know if I'm scared of it. I don't know what I am. I don't know if I don't want to do what it takes to get. I can't even tell what it is. It's hard for me.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

This.

[Theo Von]

Some of this stuff's a little bit hard for me to say, I think. I don't even know why, but I. I think I want a new story.

[Carlos Arazo]

That's it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Come on in. The water's fine. Okay, now, real quick, I just want to point out what you are watching right here is a real life manifestation of what's called the doctrine of regeneration. New birth. Okay? That's what I think you're seeing the beginning of right there. Now, real quick, because the reason I want to do this is we got. Honestly, dude, we got a ton of dudes that listen to podcasts that are just like, a guy. It's your loss truck driver who his whole life has been like, man, you know, I got, you know, I know all that God stuff's good for you, but I don't really. I don't read my Bible. I don't really know Jesus yet. But, man, something's happening. Something's getting on me while I'm listening to this pod. You know what's happening? That's what's happening. Yes. So. And I don't know why it's like this. That's the kind of dudes that our church reaches. So that's why I want to walk through this real quick. And it's going to go quick, so stay with. But start it back at the beginning. Trinity. And I want to point a couple things out here. Okay? Do it. Here we go.

[Theo Von]

I don't know. I'm starting to just feel something different.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pause. What you're starting to feel different, my friend, is Ezekiel 36. Behold, a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you. So when somebody first starts. God starts working on somebody's heart, the first thing that happens, a whole bunch of dead things start coming alive and dead people don't feel anything. Thing. When God starts making you, quote, alive in Christ Jesus, the first thing that happens is you start going like, man, something's hitting different. It's like you're that dude that was. You were sitting in church and for your whole life it was always super boring. And then you're sitting there and then all of a sudden you're singing the same song you sang 10,000 times before. But you sing one line and all of a sudden your eyes Start sweating, and you're like, bro, I don't know what just happened. It's starting to feel different. Or that you were always falling asleep during sermons, and now it's coming to you with, like, the force of electric shock. I'm starting to feel something different. What's happening is new birth is starting to happen. That's why Acts 2 says, Peter starts preaching. It says they were cut to the heart. Heart. God starts giving you a heart. Ephesians 2, though previously you were dead in your trespasses and sins, God made you alive. I'm feeling something different. Why? Because I used to be dead. I used to have a dead heart of stone. And now I think God started to give me a heart of flesh. Oh. But I'm feeling some things. Okay, let's keep going. That's why I think starting to happen here.

[Theo Von]

And then I was also. I was. I was looking on this Bible, and there's a story called John 5, and it's about a guy who's at these pools. And some people follow the Bible, some people don't. That's fine. This is just a story that I'm reciting here. And Jesus is at the pools, and it's in Bethesda. And they're like, there's a sick man there, and he's been sick for a long time. And Jesus asks him, do you want to be healed? He asks him, do you want to be healed?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pause real quick. So what he's doing here, he doesn't even know he's doing this. He's doing a theology of miracles without knowing he's doing it. So theologians have said forever that Jesus miracles are all sermons. That's why Jesus never goes, hey, guys, watch this. And fly up in the air and do a backflip and then stick a landing. And he Never, like in 30 BC, 30 AD goes, hey, man, I'm gonna prove that I'm God. And snaps his finger and there's a cybertruck. There's a reason he doesn't, because all of his sermons or his miracles are sermons. What's the sermon? Okay, so this dude in John 5 Can't Walk. Okay, well, in Genesis chapter one, when we were one and two, when we were in a right relationship with God, it says that we walked with God in the cool of the day and sin impaired that. And now it's like, man, because of my sin, I can't walk with God. So Jesus walks up this dude who can't walk, and he's like, hey, man, I'm gonna make you be able to walk it. That's a sermon. That's the sermon about salvation. Theo's thinking, doing a theology of miracles, and he doesn't even know it. Okay, keep going.

[Theo Von]

And that's a crazy question because,

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

you

[Theo Von]

know, if I get healed, then I'm different. You know, if somebody gets healed, they have a new story. So that's just been something that I've been having to ask myself. It's like, yeah, do I want to be healed? Do I really want something different?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Boss, I'm so proud of this guy. Yeah. Like, I. If every. If everybody walking in church was as honest as that guy, we'd be in a lot better place. Okay, so check this out, man. So in John 5, the whole thing, I'll do this really fast. So the guy really does. Jesus asked him, do you want to be healed? And he's Campbell. And you may be going, why the heck would he ask that? Well, think about this, dude. If your whole life you have. And by the way, we don't know the guy's name. All we know is he was, quote, a lame man. So watch this. His issue became his identity. So watch this. If your whole life, by the way, you watch out, because that's what Satan will do to you. He will convince you your issue is your identity. You'll start building your entire life to orbit around this issue you got. And if you're not careful, think about this. This dude's whole source of income was, my legs don't work. Will y' all give me money?

[Carlos Arazo]

Oh, wow.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So if he gets healed, then he's like, well, how am I gonna get any money? Again? Think about this. How's he getting attention from people? Hey, man, my legs don't work. Will you help? So I know it sounds pitiful, but it's a reality. How he got money, how he got attention, how he got sustenance were all based on him making his issue his identity. Now, dude, you watch it. As a pastor, you see this all the time, dude. Somebody. What happened to them as a kid or their addiction? Honestly, man, I'm going to say this in a straightforward way, because me and Jana have struggled with infertility forever. We've watched people who. They wrestle with infertility, and then they make their issue their identity, and it's like, all they can ever talk about. I'm giving you a gentle watch out. All they can talk about is how I'm struggling with infertility. And every social media post is about how they're struggling with infertility and they're accidentally in the same place where, man, how do I get attention? What's my identity? How do I do my relationships? It all revolves around their issue, became their identity. So Jesus goes, hey, man, are you sure you want to be healed? You sure? And Theo is getting it, dude. He's realizing, hey, man, like, that this is legitimate spiritual insight he's having big time, man. If Jesus heals me, like. Like, honestly, he's asking a legit question, I bet, man. Honestly, like, a lot of my podcast and a lot of my life revolves around some things that, man, if I'm gonna follow Jesus in a for real, for real way. Yeah. It's gonna have to change what's gonna happen to him. What's gonna happen to all this stuff?

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Wow. Okay.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

He's asking. So the reason. That's awesome. Remember what Jesus said. If anybody's gonna follow me, they gotta take up the cross daily and follow me. And then he goes, hey, before y'. All follow me. In the same way that, like, if a. If a dude is in construction, is gonna build a tower, he's gonna, like, get the plans together and figure out how much it's gonna cost first before he starts to build it. And he goes, hey, man. He tells his people to do what Theo's doing in this clip. He goes, hey, man, before you start to follow me, make sure you understand what this may cost you. And that guy right there with the Holy Spirit working on his heart is starting to go, I'm going to count the cost before I build the tower. Now, I think he's going to land in the right spot, but he's doing exactly what Jesus said said he should do. All right, Keep. Keep going. Keep going.

[Theo Von]

And sometimes a. A lot of the answer is no, I don't. So I want something different, but I don't wanna. I don't know if I'm scared of it. I don't know what I am.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm gonna give you a Watch out here.

[Theo Von]

I don't want to do what it takes to get. I can't even tell what it is.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pause. Now, listen, here's my. Here's my. Watch out. Like, if I was sitting down with Theo and I was like. He was like, hey, man, would you pass for me real quick? Here's the. Watch out. I'll get. Give. Okay, he's gone, dude. I got to get all this figured out, and I need to make sure that I've checked every box and that I'm in for everything before, you know, I os. Hawkins. Hawkins is Calling me. Let me stop before I. Before I. I go all in on this thing. Here's the watch out. As a pastor, I've seen this a million times. One strategy Satan has to keep people from coming to Jesus is to convince them they got to be perfect and have everything figured out before they do it. So that's the watch out. So here's all I'll do. When I was growing up, little Baptist kid. Carlos, you ever sing the song Come ye Sinners?

[Carlos Arazo]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay. That's like one of the best. That's like one of the best little hymns ever written. In fact, I'm gonna tell the worship team, we gotta figure out how to sing that sometime. So here it is. Here's verse three. Oh, you don't gotta pull it up. Trinity. Here's verse three of come ye sinners. It goes like this. Come ye weary, heavy laden, lost and ruined by the fall. Listen, if you tarry, that's like an old English word for weight. If you tarry till you're better, you will never come at all.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Wow.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So, man, what I would say is, man, I don't gotta have everything figured out. I don't gotta have every question figured out. I don't gotta have my heart, every single thing in the right place where I'm like, yep, my heart's totally good. I don't want to sin at all anymore. You got to be willing to do what the guy did in the Gospels where he goes, hey, man, I believe, but help my unbelief. I'll be honest. There are sometimes. Like, for me, I've been walking with Jesus for decades, where I'll get to a spot where a sin sort of crystallizes in my life, and I'll realize, like, oh, dang. And I got to pray. In all honesty, God, will you. Will you, God? I want to. Want to, not sin. I'm not to the point yet. I'll notice that. Man, there's something wrong in my heart right now. I. I want to sin. Will you help me? Want to. Want to not sin. I just say, hey, man, just bring your imperfect, flawed self to Jesus, and he'll fill you with his power and clean you up, man. So watch this. Here we go. It finishes like this.

[Theo Von]

And

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

here's the money line. Here you go. Watch.

[Theo Von]

It's hard for me. Some of this stuff's a little bit hard for me to say. I think. I don't even know why, but I. I think I want a new story.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Boom. And Theo von, you can have it. Because, behold, if anyone is in Christ. He is a new creation. The old has passed away and a new story has begun. You don't gotta do the things you used to do anymore, because in Christ, you won't be the person you were anymore. And what I would say is, watch out. It's not going to all happen at once. It's not going to all happen at once. All three of us, we're on this journey together. You got junk, I got junk. You got junk. All of us got junk. But we pick up our junk and we bring it to Jesus every day. And we're like, lord, help me cleanse me. Everybody checks the sanctification boxes in different orders. That's okay. Just keep following Jesus. And here's the last thing I'll say. He probably knows this, but the dude's name is Theo. Theo comes from the Greek word Theos means God. I think you're going to see Theovon. That's going to be a man of God someday. Amen. And God's going to use him mightily. There you go.

[Carlos Arazo]

Amen. Pastor Josh, would you pray for us?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'll be honored, Father. Thank you for your word and his power. Father, I just want to go back. I want to pray for my buddy, Kelly Gudreau. I pray that your grace would be with him in time of need as he walks through the valley of the shadow of death. Death. I pray that he would fear no evil, for you are with him. I pray that for every single person that's walking through any type of alley that's listening, that you be near to the brokenhearted and you save the crushed in spirit. Father, I pray that for all of us that just like the apostle Paul, we could say in all truth, I have a clean conscience created me a clean heart. Oh, God, not. I'm not a perfect man, but. But I want a clean conscience. And so, Lord, if there's anything in any of our lives that we need to do that you've told us to do, I pray that this week would be the week that we do it. We respond to you. Father, I'd be remiss not to pray for I never met him, but he feels like a buddy. I'm going to go ahead and pray for Theo that you meet him and give him grace in time of need. And Lord, I just thank you. I just thank you for his honesty, vulnerability, and there's wisdom there that I think came from you. And so God, save that man, redeem that man and give us the grace of watching his new story in Jesus name. Amen. Amen.

[Carlos Arazo]

Live free, brother.

[Pastor Paul Cunningham]

Live free.

[Carlos Arazo]

Well, hey, live free nation. Thanks for joining us today. Hey, stay tuned. This Wednesday, May 6th at midnight, we'll be dropping a special episode where Pastor Paul Cunningham. We'll be responding to a video from Father Mike, who is our fellow contender in the Apple podcast, top charts on the apocrypha. And whether Protestants remove books from the Bible or not, you don't want to miss it. We will see you then.