NEVER Say These 6 Things in a Fight (If You Want to Stay Married) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary
Podcast: Live Free with Josh Howerton
Host: Lakepointe Church
Episode: NEVER Say These 6 Things in a Fight (If You Want to Stay Married)
Date: September 8, 2025

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Overview

In this finale of the Song of Solomon series, Pastor Josh Howerton and his wife, Jana, deliver an in-depth, practical guide on conflict in marriage — emphasizing not just what to avoid in fights, but how to actively build unity and intimacy. They discuss biblical and real-life principles for "fighting clean," address gender-specific struggles in conflict, and give concrete examples from their own relationship to encourage servant-hearted marriages. Listener Q&A tackles tough issues like shame, in-laws, and nitpicking, always highlighting unity, humility, and God’s purpose for marriage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Conflict Matters in Marriage

• Song of Solomon only gives one chapter to honeymoons but two to conflict—conflict is inevitable and important to navigate well.
• Great marriages are not defined by a lack of conflict but by the way conflict is handled.
• The theme: Your spouse is not your enemy; there is a spiritual enemy that wants to turn you against each other (07:43).

"First comes the wedding, and then comes the war. Because Satan knows...your spouse is not your enemy, but you and your spouse have an enemy. And your enemy wants you to think that your spouse is your enemy."
— Josh Howerton, 07:43

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2. Merging Family Models and Communication Styles

• Everyone brings default conflict styles from their family of origin (e.g., shutdown vs. steamrolling).
• Jana: Used to shut down/be passive aggressive ("I'm fine"), whereas Josh would try to resolve things quickly and verbally (09:10–11:07).
• Learning to give each other space and pause for clarity/prevent escalation.

“When someone says they’re fine, they’re not fine.”
— Jana Howerton, 09:10

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3. Approaching Conflict as a Team

• Constant reminder: Unity is the goal. Pray before conflict, aim for understanding and resolution (13:25).
• Conflict avoidance (not having hard conversations) is deadlier for a marriage than conflict itself.
• The pain of surgery (having the hard talk) is far better than the pain of cancer (letting bitterness fester) (13:25–14:34).

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4. Prevention: Build on the Right Foundation

• Healthy marriages are built on three levels:
  1. Being godly Christians to each other: Serve, bless, forgive, and respect one another.
  2. Being friends: Invest in the friendship (shared interests, time together).
  3. Being spouses ("lover" layer): Intimacy builds upward from the first two layers (17:01–19:01).

“People’s marriages start struggling, and they want to go up to the issues...sex and headship and submission...actually, man, you got problems...at the foundation. You’re not being good Christians to each other.”
— Josh Howerton, 20:06

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5. Gender-Specific Conflict Struggles

For Women (Jana’s Perspective)

• Respond, don’t react: Don’t let emotion dictate your words.
• Take responsibility: Don’t excuse bad behavior by blaming your spouse.
• Double standards: Both should avoid emotional manipulation or defensiveness.
• Avoid shutting down/passive aggression. Be “grown-ups” in communication (21:01–29:10).
• Take words at face value; avoid impossible questions (“Do I look fat?”) and expecting hidden meanings (33:38–34:58).

For Men (Josh’s Perspective)

• Men often steamroll or stonewall in conflict.
• Stonewalling (shutting down) is a common male mistake; it punishes the spouse with withdrawal and breeds anxiety.
• Acknowledge your own feelings—men can be “overthrown,” too.
• Validate your wife’s feelings before addressing facts; this de-escalates and brings unity (41:08–43:55).
• True servant leadership isn’t passivity; sometimes, loving leadership means “checking” your own or your wife’s emotions (46:55–53:16).

“Acknowledging your feelings makes way to speak lovingly about the facts.”
— Josh Howerton, 42:43

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6. Six Things Never to Say or Do in a Fight

(The "NEVERs" cover most of the language and tone that destroy unity)

1. No Name Calling
2. Do Not Raise Your Voice
3. Do Not Get Historical (bringing up old conflicts)
4. Never Say “Never” or “Always” (exaggeration/mischaracterization)
5. Never Threaten Divorce (covenant, not contract)
6. Never Quote Your Pastor in a Fight (don’t weaponize spiritual authority)
   (35:58–39:38)

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7. Servant-Hearted Marriage: Out-serving Each Other

• Great marriages are built by two people trying to “out-serve” one another (54:37).
• Josh and Jana share practical ways they serve each other—ranging from house chores to how they handle sexual intimacy and emotional support (57:31–67:34).
• This attitude impacts not only daily life but also the bedroom: "If you improve the servanthood, the sex improves too." (56:14)

"You're winning when the disagreements are about, I'm trying to serve you. No, I'm trying to serve you."
— Josh Howerton, 59:27

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8. Listener Q&A: Addressing Real-Life Scenarios

On Shame & Spiritual Warfare (68:13–72:32)

• Identify the lies the spouse believes and intentionally speak the opposite (encouragement has strong power).
• For strongholds, consider spiritual disciplines, including prayer and rooted groups.

On In-Laws (73:14–77:21)

• Genesis 2: "A man shall leave his father and mother": New family, new priorities, new boundaries.
• Each spouse should set boundaries with their own parents.
• In-laws should avoid unsolicited advice/intervention.

On Nitpicking (77:25–80:28)

• Distinguish between realistic requests and nitpicking.
• Husbands: Don’t “buzzard” (pick faults); instead, be “hummingbirds” (breathe life).
• Both: Don’t receive questions as commands, and never phrase things in a derogatory manner.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On “Fine”:
  “Fine is the most dangerous F word in the house.”
  — Josh Howerton, 09:13

• On Marriage Foundation:
  “If you treat your spouse the way you're going to treat other people, things are going to go a lot different.”
  — Jana Howerton, 17:42

• On Gender & Conflict:
  “Your husband should not be afraid of you.”
  — Jana Howerton, 24:24

• On Emotional Steamrolling:
  “Don’t pretend it’s just women who get emotionally overthrown… when you start noticing you’re having level nine reactions to level two statements, bro, you’re overthrown.”
  — Josh Howerton, 41:32

• On Leadership:
  “You serve your wife by leading your home… not necessarily primarily by serving.”
  — Josh Howerton, 51:25

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Key Timestamps

00:54 — Announcement of episode themes: fighting clean, in-laws, sex/intimacy, servant leadership
09:10 — Jana: On growing from shutting down to healthier conflict resolution
13:25 — The necessity of conflict for healthy marriages
17:01 — Friendship as the foundation for marriage
21:29 — Jana: Take responsibility for your own words and actions
32:07 — Find the right time to talk about tough topics
35:58 — The six rules for conflict (things to never say/do)
41:08 — Josh: Gender differences, “feeling overthrown,” men must avoid stonewalling
51:25 — Myth of servant leadership
54:37 — Servant-hearted marriage: two givers vs. two takers
57:31 — Practical ways Josh and Jana serve each other
68:13 — Q&A: Addressing shame and spiritual warfare
73:14 — Q&A: Handling in-laws and biblical family boundaries
77:25 — Q&A: Nitpicking in marriage — distinguishing expectations from criticism

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Resources & Next Steps

• Rooted (10-week discipleship experience): Text "rooted" to 20411
• Show notes for group discussion: Text "notes" to 20411
• Previous episodes for more on servant leadership, conflict, and biblical submission

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In summary:
This episode is a tightly packed, honest, and biblically grounded guide to fighting fair in marriage. Josh and Jana balance gender-specific wisdom with universal principles and model vulnerability about their growth areas. Their practical examples—and hilariously candid banter—offer hope, humor, and real solutions for couples who want unity and intimacy, not just the absence of argument. Recommended for anyone seeking to build a marriage where two people compete to out-serve each other, not out-argue.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode. Ladies and gentlemen, can I go? Welcome. Welcome to the last episode of the Song of Solomon series with Janet Howerton.

[B]

I know. I'm excited to be here.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah, Janet, this can be really fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're gonna talk about fighting.

[B]

Yeah, I think it'll be great. I think it'd be hopefully helpful to help people through their conflict, and I don't know, they're going to be hopefully better. Better for it.

[A]

It's going to be amazing. Yeah, it's going to be amazing. So we're going to talk about. Heads up for the listeners. We're going to talk about how to fight a marriage and how not to fight.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Fight clean.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We're going to talk about in laws. A lot of questions.

[B]

There were a lot.

[A]

A lot of questions about how to handle in laws. We're going to know about fights, about sex and intimacy, because there's a lot of questions about that. We're gonna talk about the myth of servant leadership that I think can sometimes actually be damaging and many other things. I'm curious before that, what are you most excited to talk about on the pod?

[B]

You know, I think just kind of hitting some areas that, you know, just women in conflict and things that we need to be wise. Like, you know, men have their struggles, but women also have our struggles with dealing with conflict and kind of like hitting what those struggles are and what we can do to overcome those.

[A]

I love it. I think it's gonna be great. Well, by the way. By the way, Jana, our episode on it was like the week on Headship and Helper. Yeah. Week two of this series. I think that things in it, like 110,000 views right now.

[C]

Over 100k.

[A]

Over 100k just on YouTube.

[B]

Wow. Wow.

[A]

Because of Carlos. He knows what he's doing, man.

[C]

Many other reasons why.

[A]

All right, so y' all can help us. The pot, honestly, the pot is growing like crazy right now. It's been awes. So you can help us. Honestly, it's growing because of you guys. You can help us by liking, subscribing, commenting, sharing, rating. That's one of the other ones. All the things. All the things. And that helps us. So if this is helpful to you when you do that, it helps us know that it was helpful and you can share it with other people. That helps that. So that'd be amazing. You can also get the show notes for each episode that a lot of people are using to like. It's really cool. Like dudes kind of meeting for coffee before work, talking about what God's doing in their life through the Bible teaching. You can get that by. It's Lakepoint Church shownotes. Yeah. Or they can. Can they text something?

[C]

Text notes to 20411.

[A]

We should have just had you in the pod. Yeah, I'm right here. So for our listeners, anytime that we're talking about like marital intimacy stuff, Jan and I just feel like it's more appropriate for just us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. I don't know. It just feels better.

[C]

My feelings are not hurt.

[A]

All right, that's good, Carlos. That's really good. That's really good. You can be. You're like one of the friends in Song of Solomon. Like you le this part. That's great. Awesome. So we're gonna do all that. I also just want to shout this out, man. Guys, we have. We have pushing towards 3,500 people signed up for rooted.

[B]

Oh, that's so great.

[A]

I know, man. 10 week discipleship experience starts in a week or so. If somebody's interested in that, they can text the word rooted number 20411. And then 21 days of prayer is culminating in encounter this Wednesday night.

[B]

I know. I can't believe it's already here. I'm going by fast. Really fast, Real fast.

[A]

Been amazing. And good old Jonathan Paclude is going to be preaching at Lake Point prayer of worship night. It's going to be amazing.

[B]

It will.

[A]

Okay, let's talk about. Let's talk about all the things. So here's where we were. If I'm going to give a quick recap and then we'll just dive right in. First of all, I think if somebody was going to go, hey, what's one week of this series that would actually help our marriage the most? I'm going to say something like a little blunt. I think a lot of people, everybody wants to talk about sex. It's like that's where A ton of the questions are about sex and intimacy and stuff. But, you know, and I said this in one of the services, like, honestly, even if you both are absolutely ravenous and you're married and you're in the bedroom for an hour every single day, I'm serious. Why is that funny?

[B]

It just sounds like a lot.

[A]

Sounds like a lot. You still have 24 other hours every day. You got to figure out. So actually, what would. I think, what would actually improve people's marriages the most are like, let's figure out. Let's figure out the intimacy, relational intimacy and conflict thing.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And that's actually going to help. So if somebody were to go, what, one week of the series would be most helpful? I think it's this one. So it's really interesting. In the book Song of Solomon, what are you going to say?

[B]

No, you go on.

[A]

You can jump in whenever you want.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You're smart. In the book Song of Solomon, there's one chapter on the honeymoon. There's two chapters on conflict that says something. That should tell you something.

[B]

Yeah, honeymoon's easy.

[A]

Honeymoon's easy.

[B]

Conflict. You got to figure out.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, it is kind of interesting in chapter five, you essentially, for people who didn't hear the message or haven't read it, you essentially have a guy coming home after a long day at work that wants sex, and his wife essentially goes, you got home real late and you missed dinner, and I'm real tired. And it starts to fight. The Bible is a very accurate book.

[B]

You know, she needs some of her emotional needs met first.

[A]

Apparently so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Apparently so.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that's what this is. And then we get this, you know, in chapter five, there and around, you get this description of this. How this couple handles this conflict can be really cool, by the way. I do want to do this because it's related to this. Part of this is handling conflict like a man of God for the men. After week two of or week one of the series on YouTube, you can see this. Somebody did this where they. They took the code of a man of God that I wrote, they published it and mounted it.

[B]

It looks great.

[A]

It does look great.

[B]

Very manly, masculine.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Looks really good.

[A]

There you go. And I know it looks real good. So we want to give this away. So if somebody wants to comment on YouTube, your favorite restaurant to go to as a couple, then we will pick one commenter on YouTube and we'll get in touch with you and send the code of a man of God thing.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Yeah, it'll be awesome.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

Be awesome now. So let me set this up, and then we're just gonna dive right in and talk nitty gritty, heads up little PG11 stuff. Because a lot of conflict is about sex and intimacy. And so is it in the song Solomon. We'll talk about that a little bit. But basically, here's what everybody needs to understand. You go back to Genesis, and the pattern in Genesis is in Genesis, chapter two comes the first wedding. Satan doesn't appear until the beginning of Genesis chapter three. That should tell you something. First comes the wedding, and then comes the war. Because Satan knows that God has created it to be husband and wife. Man and wife. Your spouse is not your enemy, but you and your spouse have an enemy. And your enemy wants you to think that your spouse is your enemy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so he's going to try to get in your marriage and turn it into. Instead of man and wife, he wants to turn it into man versus wife. And so what we want to do right now is probably the things that we learned early in marriage that have resulted in the most fruit are like, okay, here's how we do conflict. Conflict.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we want to talk about that. So, actually, Jana, can I just dive right in?

[B]

Yeah, go for it.

[A]

Jenna, what did you have to learn about conflict in marriage? And then what do women need to hear about conflict in marriage?

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Well, I. I had a lot to learn. I feel like whenever both of us did. Yeah. But it, Like, I think early on, just in marriage, like, it was. I think it wasn't easy for me to know what I was thinking, why I was thinking it, why something upset me. I think I wasn't really very good at figuring that out and expressing that. And I'm going to talk about this in a minute and why these are not the responses, but it's like, I think rather than even trying to go there and trying to discuss, I would just emotionally kind of just shut down and be passive aggressive and like, I'm fine. And I. I really actually hate that word because it's like when someone says they're fine, they are not fine.

[A]

Well, especially ladies most of the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was gonna say fine is the most dangerous F word in the. How it's like, man, if she's. If she says fine.

[B]

Yeah, I don't. I do not use that very often, though.

[A]

You've matured out of it.

[B]

Really? Yeah, I. Yeah, I really. Yeah. Try not to do that. But I think I just. Just. I think just learning how. How to talk and how to do it in a way that was like, you don't have to power up. You don't have to get angry how. Just learning how to, like, just really talk through things in a loving way because you're for each other and your goal is unity and to be closer after. So those are things that I had to learn.

[A]

I remember. And I was. I'll talk about this when it's my turn. But it's like what happens when people get married is like, they're merging family models and there's a lot of, like, opposite habits. So, like, I'm a fast processor and I am not.

[B]

I am very slow, methodical. I need to really, like, I'm not going to tell you, like, oh, I really like that, or I love something. If not, I have to think about it because I'm not going to. I'm. I'm not going to be untruthful about it. I, like, do. Do I like that food or whatever. So I have to really think about stuff. So when we were getting in on. On, like, discussing stuff, like, I. I just. I. I can't move quick. I have to think about it and tell you exactly why I think something.

[A]

You're. You're just. You're very, very measured with your words.

[B]

Very.

[A]

Jana, I honestly, I don't know if I remember you saying something that was not true in our whole marriage. It's just like Jana cannot say something that she hasn't thought about to make sure that's. This is true and it's how I feel.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So anyway, what would happen is I'd, like, steamroll the conflict and I'm good at talk. Like, I'm good at talking and I'm good at argument.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, you would shut down and I would power, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, you keep going.

[B]

Well, and I think for you to realize, like, I. It's sometimes it's not that I was trying to avoid conflict. I just needed a second to gather my thoughts and to, like, know what I was thinking. And so sometimes I some, you know, sometimes still I'll need to, like, hey, just give me a second. Give me a second. Let me pray through this, process it. And then, you know, you. This is not a long. A long time. This is not a day. This is not, you know, a week. This is like, okay, let me just go think about this, you know, and then we come back together and are able to talk through something. And so sometimes you just need to gather your thoughts and there's nothing wrong with that. But the goal is to conflict resolution, not just to go stir yourself up and to, like, get in a stew and a tizzy and even more angry. The goal is to find resolution. So if you need a pause like that for a minute, like, remember the goal is to seek resolution.

[A]

That's really good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What else that you have learned? Remember, just. You just keep going the whole way. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So I, like, I was kind of just going to get on, get on, on, you know, some kind of thoughts for. For women, things I commonly hear, you know, and kind of address that. But I just like, you know, just wanted to, like, remind us that God didn't create men and women to be enemies, but to work together to gold cultivate and grow something beautiful. So you already hit on this earlier. And that's just kind of like whenever Satan enters the picture, that's what, you know, what we start to see happen. So it makes me just think about the scripture, about who God brought together. Let no one separate. So don't let Satan get a foothold in your marriage in any area, especially not in, like, conflict too. So the goal is to always work for unity, Always desiring connection. Unity is what matters. So you are on the same team. So you want good fruit to come from this area of conflict. So anytime you enter a conflict, like, pray for both of your hearts to soften and for God to help you to be on the same page. Cause so that's what we're. You're not fighting each other. You're fighting to be on the same. You're on the same team already. You want to be on the same side. So don't fight against each other. Like, fight for each other in those moments and, you know, work to make. Work to make resolution.

[A]

That's it. Like, I'll just interject, like, I feel like when we'll have. By the way, let me just say this. Like, because you have conflict doesn't mean you have a great marriage. In fact, a lot of times you have to have some conflict in order to have a great marriage. Because it's kind of like, hey, man, which one are you going to choose? And this may be a point of conviction for some people. You may have been tolerating things you should not be tolerating. And actually the thing that you're tolerating and that you're avoiding conflict about, that's the thing that's gonna kill your marriage. And so a lot of people avoid hard conversations because they're afraid a hard conversation is gonna hurt the relationship. When Actually, no. Avoiding the hard conversation will kill the relationship. Here's your choice. Do you want the pain of surgery or do you want the pain of cancer? A hard conversation, a lot of times is the pain of surgery. Okay, Is this gonna be a little difficult? Yeah, it is. But we're going to have pointed, clear, temporary pain of some conflict to get this thing out of our marriage that actually is harming our intimacy or my ability to love you. Well and that kind of thing.

[B]

So, yes, I, well, and I also just to, to add to that is like one thing that we do and it may not. This may not feel comfortable to you, but like I tell you, for the health of your marriage, it is very helpful. Like, I'll just say, hey, like, do I have some blind spots I'm not aware of? Like, can you, can you tell? Is there any.

[A]

You literally did that yesterday.

[B]

Yes. Because, like, I don't, I don't want to have blind spots. I don't want to be doing something that, you know is sinful or, you know, that's like, honestly just not God honoring or whatever. So I'm like asking that you ask that. And we, we just kind of have an open door policy there with that. But like, we give each other, like, easy ways to do that because we'll ask the question, you know.

[A]

Yes, actually, can I jump ahead and say something here and then you jump back in. So a lot of people, I think they want to learn about man. What's the Bible say about conflict? I think that's really, that's wise. But prevention is kind of like the same thing in with your physical health. Like, you work really, really, really hard on staying healthy so that actually you don't get an illness and have to have not. What would be the other word? Not preventative, but restorative. I don't know. You know, basically preventing illnesses from coming instead of treating them when they come.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So let me go ahead and I'm going to toss that diagram that I tossed with her. So one thing that Song of Solomon does that I think helps, that you're alluding to that helps us. Honestly, we've got to the point now we don't have a ton of conflict.

[B]

No.

[A]

And, but I think that's because we've gotten good at building a relationship that prevents it.

[B]

Yes. And I think when we do have conflict, we have learned that, like, hey, we love each other and we're not against each other. All we want is, is to have a better relationship. And so we're coming at it as you know, we love each other, we're friends and we're, you know, it's not with anger and animosity and all of that.

[A]

Well, you just use the word. So song of Solomon 5, it uses that, that verse about her spouse. She uses the phrase, you are my lover and you are my friend. So I just, I want like for somebody that's listening, think about the nature relationship. First you have two people who are Christians before God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then they're saying, and then we're friends. This is my lover, this is my friend. And then the third layer is that's where the lover. So I saw this years ago. I actually used this, I think in a sermon at the bridge in like 2010 and I've kept it. But in the Bible, this is the relational structure of Christian marriage that the foundation of the relationship is we just want to be good Christians to each other.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like the Bible says, you know, hey, serve one another and bless one another, care for one another, pray for one another, bear one another's burdens in Christ. All the verses about how Christians should treat other Christians, those apply to your spouse.

[B]

Well, and think about that. If you treat your spouse the way you're going to treat other people because sometimes, you know, you don't, you don't give them the best, best of you. At the end of the day, things are going to go a lot different if you treat them with the respect and use your words the same way you are going to with other people.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So first we're Christians, that's bottom level. Then we're friends. This is my lover, this is my friend. And honestly, like that's probably when people ask us about Mar. Like we listen. We got a lot of sins. Jen and I just like your bells need grace. We really do got great marriage. Yeah, we really do. And I think a lot of that is we have a really, really good friendship. Like we have some common interests. When we work to find common interests.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

We take our little 1.6 mile walk.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

@ the end of the day nearly every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's friendship stuff. We have, we laugh together, we have fun together, you know.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then after that, on top of that, it's like you're building upwards. Then their spouses. That's why Song of Solomon says, this is my lover, this is my friend. So here's what I'd say about prevention in conflict. And then I want to get back to you on what women need, maybe need to hear about conflict because there are some gender specific things that we Want to talk about.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What everybody does is when their marriage gets bad, is they immediately they want to go up to all the verses and concepts about the spouse stuff. They go, oh, marriage is bad. Well, how's our sex life? Is he submitting or is she submitting? Is he the spiritual leader? Like, they go straight to the romance sex, you know, spouse verses.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because the. The problems are we're not having intimacy like we should, and she's not submitting and he's not leading. And here's what I'd say, like. And I think even, you know, I think even you can get this one, Jana. You'll see what I mean. That's not demeaning. You'll see what I mean. I would never disrespect you in front of anybody. So if you're. If, you know, when we were looking at houses in Mount Washington, there was this one house we looked at, and we walked in, and all the windows, it was a little yellow house. All the windows were askew.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And there were cracks in the ceiling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the doors wouldn't close quite right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Stuff. Problems with the ceiling. And what was the problem?

[B]

Foundation issues.

[A]

Foundation issues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So here's. Here's the deal, man. People's marriages start struggling, and they want to go up to the issues. The cracks in the ceiling, the spouse stuff, sex and headship and submission was like, actually, man, you got problems down there at the foundation. Like, that's. You're not being good Christians to each other.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Like, you're not the son of man came to serve, but not to be served and give his life as ransom for many and forgiving one, others. So here's what I would say is what really prevents conflict, is preventative, is if you just become two Jesusy, godly people that serve each other like Christians are supposed to serve each other, and then you work on just having a great friendship. Honestly, man, you're not going to have a lot of, like, as much spouse conflict. So I'd say maybe start down there at the foundation and work up now. I kind of hijacked. Yeah. But you. You keep going on the stuff for ladies.

[B]

I think it's good when we interject extra stuff throughout. Okay. So, yeah, kind of back to stuff for the ladies. I think we have to remember is that we are responsible for our own actions. Okay. So your actions are your actions, so take responsibility and ownership for them. And then, you know, obviously the same is true for your spouse. So he's responsible for his. But you cannot Blame shift or excuse your bad behavior because you don't like how he said something.

[A]

So that's really good.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, so can you give an example.

[A]

Of how, you know, you're talking to ladies, how that might manifest? Because one of your pet peeves, I think I'm allowed to be, is women who take no responsibility for their behavior and they just blame everyone else for why they are the way they are or what they did.

[B]

Actually, can I kind of get through what I was going to say? Because I think it'll really kind of answer that question. So here are the things that I mean by that, but I'm going to tell you, the first thing is you need to learn how to respond in conflict, not react. Okay? So you want to respond, but not react. So reaction is like blowing up and, you know, anger and all that. So you want to respond to what he is actually saying. So not, you're not responding here what you're feeling in the moment or what you are maybe fearing. So sometimes you're projecting something onto him and thinking he's saying one thing when that's not what he's saying. You're just, you have a fear about in that area or you're feeling a certain way, so you need to respond, don't react. I listen to what he's actually saying and I'll talk more about that in a minute. But, but here, here's, I think the point that you were asking about. So if a man's not supposed to be emotional or defensive when he is talking to, to you about something like, right, that's, you know, you hear that all the time. So then as a woman, you need to learn not to be emotional and defensive when your husband is needing to talk to you about something. So there is this double standard of like a man needs to be very composed and you know, well, not emotional and defensive. But it's okay for a woman to act however she wants and that's just not the case. Like you are both adults and you both need to act like adults. And so you cannot have double standard. You need to also speak with respect and you need to be self controlled. So don't use your emotions to manipulate and control your husband. And I think sometimes that's what women can do is they use their emotions. They'll power up to use it as a method just to manipulate and control. So if your husband is scared of your emotions.

[A]

I'm gonna talk about that in a second.

[B]

Okay. I won't go into detail though, but.

[A]

No, no, you do it Actually probably less incendiary coming from you.

[B]

But. Yeah. If, you know, if your husband's constantly scared of your emotions or you are having emotional outbursts, then you shouldn't be surprised when he starts shutting down. You know, like that. You know he's gonna shut down.

[A]

We did not talk about what each other were gonna say.

[B]

Yes. I haven't. Did you already say that?

[A]

I was gonna get that. So that's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Well, you should say it again. It's probably. It's worth repeating.

[A]

I'll do it from a dude perspective.

[B]

Yeah. And you can. Yeah. What it does to a guy. But. But you. It's like your, Your husband should not be afraid of you. They. He should not. So in conflict, you need to try not to be offended. Offended. Like, so that is such. Like, that is like the bait of Satan, right? Offense. He. He wants you to be baited. He wants you to be offended. Because then you're going to get angry and then, you know, honestly, it's going to lead to disunity. Right. So try not to be. Be offended. Just listen. And when your goal is to love one another and you want a good outcome, and you are. You're wanting to produce fruit in your marriage, not harm one each one another. Like, there's. The goal is never to hurt one another in conflict. So you should not be coming at conflict with that aim. Right? So if you're having a moment where you're disagreeing and you want to make sure you understand where he's coming from, just take a second and say, and I've had to do this like, hey, okay, I hear you. I do hear what you're saying, but I want to make sure I understand because sometimes you're, you're, you are like hearing, but you're not really listening. You're not. You're not getting to the heart of what is actually being said. So you're upset at him about something. He's really not even saying you're.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there have been times I've had to like, oh, here, here's what I think you're saying. Is this what you mean?

[A]

And then this, honestly. So you're. This is good because we learned all these lessons together, right. One of the things that we have learned, it's like a little, it's honestly, it's like a little Jedi mind trick, but, you know, for righteousness. It's like in conflict, when she speaks or when he speaks, if you force yourself to essentially repeat back what the person just said. So, like, we'll sometimes do this, and that's why you're saying it. Like, we'll be in conflict, and both of us, we can get fired up, man. Like, I'm a quick talker, and I'm passionate. And Jana, you know, though she be little, she is fierce.

[B]

Yeah. Been known to power up myself.

[A]

She got that red. She got that redhead in her. And what we'll do sometimes is we'll kind of do this thing where I'll talk or you'll talk, and then the other one will say, okay, so if I understand you correctly, what I'm hearing is. And we'll repeat back when I do blank, that makes you feel blank, and it almost forces you to obey the Bible verse. Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry.

[B]

And there are times that we've had to be like, no, that is absolutely not what I was saying. I did not mean that. I don't feel that way. And so I think that's so good to bring clarity into it, because you can be mad at your spouse for something that they're not saying or feeling at all.

[A]

Yeah. Can I just interject this? What some people will do, and both men and women can do it, is they'll hold the other one emotionally hostage for, like. So here's. Here's the principle. It's possible to have real feelings based on wrong thinking.

[B]

That's true. Yeah.

[A]

And here's what's not fair. It's not fair for you to force your spouse to respond to the real feelings you have. But that. That are based on wrong thinking. That's. That's not fair, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Right. Yeah. No, that's good. So I was going to kind of shift gears.

[A]

Yeah, please do.

[B]

So the other thing. And I mean, I have no idea what you're getting ready to say for the men, so this will be a surprise. But my next thing is don't shut down or be passive aggressive. So if you're married or you are. Because we're. I mean, this is. What we're describing here is just conflict in marriage. So you're married, you're an adult, and you need to be an adult and act like an adult in these. These areas. So as Christians, the book of Ephesians. Ephesians reminds us that we are expected to be growing up in every way. It says into Christ. So we're growing up in every way. So this. This is an area we need to grow up. We have to grow up in our communication skills. It's not fair to Completely shut down a conversation because you're angry, or you say you're fine, but then let everyone know that you're not because you're giving them the cold shoulder. You won't talk to them. You won't look to them. You're acting mad. So those are not acceptable behaviors. What is acceptable is if, like we talked about earlier, like, sometimes I just need a second to, like, okay, let me figure out what. What am I thinking and feeling. I'm going to pray through this, so gather your thoughts, but the goal is to come back and honestly seek unity.

[A]

Yeah. Can I. Let me pause this here real quick, because we. This is something we've learned is. There's the. It's the book of Ephesians. It says to not let the sun go out down on your anger. Do not give the devil a foothold. And I already hit in the sermon. There's a unique connection in the Bible between bitterness and unforgiveness and demonic activity. So I won't go back into that. But that. That's clearly a thing. What. What I would say a mistake we made that we learned is my family. Everybody in my family. Quick processor, very verbal. So all the conflict in the family I grew up in was like, you know, and it would be like, no, no, we're gonna figure this out right now. And. And Jana was like, yeah, we didn't.

[B]

Do that in my family.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

We just didn't talk about it.

[A]

Shut down. Passive aggressive.

[B]

And then. Yeah.

[A]

Wait till it goes away.

[B]

Get over it later. Yeah.

[A]

Get over there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm talking about the overthrown thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it took us a minute. I would misuse the Bible verse about not letting the sun go down in your anger. I'd be like, no, Jana, you can't have a minute. No. Because we're supposed to solve this immediately. But. But what we figured out is sometimes it's like, man, I'm. I'm. I'm a little. I'm spinning a little bit in my emotion right now. And if I speak right now, I'm not going to speak measured, wise words. So we have a little thing that we'll do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where we'll just. Very rare.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd say less than 10 times in our marriage, maybe. What do you think?

[B]

I. I don't know. Yeah.

[A]

Not frequent. Where. If we get in that spot where it's like, either she's not rational, or I'm usually the one who feels this way, it's like, dude, I'm not rational right now. We'll just say, hey, I'm overthrown right now. Let me have a minute and we'll take a break, calm down, come back.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's. It's helpful. It's. And it's good to recognize that in yourself because it's like, you know, even now, like. Like sometimes it. And it's something totally not anything to do with you, but you'll come home and be like, are you okay? And it rather. I used to, in the past, would have just said, I'm fine, but now I'm just like, I'm just overthrown. It's okay. I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna be okay in just a little bit. I just. I just, you know, I just need a second.

[A]

That's a word. Essentially, what it means is I'm in my feelings. I'm overstimulated, and I'm not seeing things clearly, and I know it.

[B]

And I think there's a beauty in recognizing that because then you're not gonna take those feelings too seriously. Like, hey, this is gonna pass. I'm just like, whew. I just need to maybe sit down and take five minutes and I'm gonna be better. It's gonna be okay. Yeah, things are gonna go better. Okay, so I did have a few more things to say.

[A]

Like, and then I'm gonna talk to the guys.

[B]

Okay, this. This one is just. Just like a little offshoot. It's just find the right time to talk about difficult topics so often. Maybe because you. Of the place you're in, it's just like, you just pick a time that's not a great time. Like, okay, he's leaving. He's leaving for work, or he just walks in, in from work and you're standing at the door and you just can't wait to, like, pounce on whatever. It's 11:30pm those are not good times. And you're. You're not at your best. You're not at your best whenever you actually should be sleeping, you know, so it's like, finding the right times to talk about difficult topics goes a long way. And then, like, honestly thinking about. It's important to make time for communication as a regular part of your day. Like, don't. Shouldn't be just talking when you have a disagreement. That should not be the only time you are talking with your spouse. Like, so making just time to, like, honestly be good friends. Just like, you know, the picture you just showed is like, you know, making that part of your day. You're walking, taking whatever Works for you. Walks, date nights, taking a drive, however you enjoy spending time together, just make communication a regular part of your day together. Um, so that. That I would say. And then these are kind of. This is like a. Like a woman thing. So take his words as face value. Okay. There's usually.

[A]

This is so important.

[B]

Yeah, there's usually not a hidden message there. Okay. He's not trying. He's not sending you this hidden message. Like, when he compliments you, guess what he means it. Like, it's like whenever he says, oh, I like your hair like that, you say you. Let's say you styled it in a different way. That doesn't mean he thinks your hair looks every other way you style it. So accept the compliment and be glad that he noticed. Right. Like, it's just. He's not giving you a hidden message there. And then don't ask him impossible questions. Okay. And.

[A]

Ooh, I'm so excited to hear what you're gonna say here.

[B]

Yeah, don't ask questions like, do I look fat? Or.

[A]

Unless. Unless you want to know.

[B]

Yeah, unless you want to know, because.

[A]

You will literally ask me. I'm doing my Amazon try ons.

[B]

Well, that's. Okay. That was. That was one of my points. So it's like, don't ask him the impossible question, do I look fat or do I look fat in this? And then be upset with the answer. You asked the question. Like, you can't be upset with that. So if it's not. If it's not what you wanted to hear, and I, yes, I do ask this question, but whenever I ask it, I really am looking for an answer. Because, like, sometimes I'll try on an outfit and I'm like, oh, I don't like the way this makes me look. And so I want confirmation. And sometimes he agrees.

[A]

No, let me just say. Let me just say there's a trick to this. The. Here's the way to say it, though, this is okay for the husbands is I don't know if you. Do you remember how? If. If. What do I say? Do you remember what. How I say it?

[B]

It's. I mean, it's very kind.

[A]

I'll say. I'll say that that dress makes you look bigger than you are.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

So you don't say you look fat now. You say that makes you look bigger than your eye. It's actually. It's actually a way to compliment you.

[B]

But do I get mad at you?

[A]

Never.

[B]

Yeah, so it's like I asked the question, so I don't have permission to be upset about it, you know, so. Yeah. So I just wanted to add that one in there. I think. I think that's good for that. And then I may piggyback off some of the stuff you say.

[A]

So let me just. Because this is one thing. I think I hit it in one of the services. But just for everybody, if I was going to go over something with a verbal highlighter, like I'm going to give. These are six rules that I've heard, six rules for conflict that they really cover a lot of the things that you said. And then I'm about to say for men.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. So in general, if you're doing. I think you and your spouse need to make an agreement. None of. We don't do any of these things when we're in conflict. And you need to pre decide. It's like, here's our rules of engagement. We don't do any of these things and we make this commitment now. Have we broken the commitments? For sure.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But these are things that we pre decide we're not going to do this. No name calling.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That helps out. That's out. No name calling. Do not raise your voice. It is never, ever, ever. Nobody has ever been shouted into agreement. So no name calling. Do not raise your voice. We do not get historical. That's Janice. Thing of love keeps no record of wrongs. If every conflict turns into an archeological dig of everything you've ever done wrong for the back part of our marriage, well, that there's. It's literally impossible for the conflict to end in reconciliation and unity.

[B]

Well, and then that's, you know, it's like you've forgiven that. That is gone. You know, it's gone. You are moved. You have moved forward. You are looking forward, so you should not be looking back.

[A]

That's it. The principle behind this, biblically, is the principle of, hey, man, sin is like trash. You married a sinner. Both of you are going to sin.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When you sin, it's like you're bringing trash into the house. Repentance and forgiveness are how you take out the trash and make sure that the marriage has the aroma of Christ.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I honestly, like. And I'll be honest, I think we would say there have been moments in our marriage in the probably first seven, five, seven years where this sometimes felt like a thing. That whole. We never get historical. You always. You never. Oh, this reminds me of the 87 times that you. It's like, no, no. Love keeps no record of wrongs. We don't do that. And I will just say, like, if you do that in conflict. Ding, ding, ding. I have just figured out why your spouse never wants to admit they're wrong to you. Because they have learned, you have trained them, that if they admit they're wrong, you're not going to cancel the record of debt. You're going to store it like a pile of rocks that you can throw at them when it's convenient for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's very, very, very important that in conflict, we obey the biblical command that love keeps no record of wrongs. I have canceled the record of that debt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm not gonna bring it up every time. All right, so let me. Let me keep going. No name calling. We do not raise our voice. We do not get historical. We never say never or always, because very frankly, never or always are simply not true.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's just not true. And then the person feels mischaracterized and attacked, and now we're not fighting for unity. We're fighting each other.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We have never done this one, but if you are doing this one, you need to stop doing this one forever and ever and ever. Never ever threaten divorce, Right?

[B]

No. Absolutely not.

[A]

This is a covenant. It is not a contract. And I've already covered in previous podcasts what are moments where biblically, divorce is permissible as a last resort, not a first option. But you don't do that.

[B]

And that's manipulation. Right. It's. You're manipulating to gain control to get what you want.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Inappropriate.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And sinful.

[A]

And sinful. And then the last one is when you're in a fight, never, ever quote, your pastor say that. And I got that into this. But that's like. It's a bad time to be like Pastor Josh. Well, Jana seems nicer than you. Let's not do that. Does that all make sense?

[B]

That's good. That's good.

[A]

Can I talk about some things that I think, like, men particularly struggle with?

[B]

Yes, please do.

[A]

In conflict.

[C]

Well, hey, guys, one of the reasons we are intentional in creating these kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is we want to model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the word of God together and grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. For this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined a group, you need to get into Rooted. Rooted is a 10 week discipleship experience that helps you grow closer to God, build meaningful relationships, and discover the purpose he has for your life. Rooted guides you to practice the seven rhythms of following Jesus to transform your faith from something you know into something you actually live out every single day. And so whether you're exploring what it means to follow Jesus and you're ready to grow deeper in your faith, or maybe you're searching for people to do life with, Rooted is for you. Just text the word rooted to 20411 and our teams will follow up personally. Do not wait. Your next step starts now.

[A]

So, number one, not always, but very frequently, because men can. Again, I'm generalizing. We're all big boys and girls and not. But in general, men can be a little more rational. Women can tend a little bit towards emotional reasoning. What that can sometimes result in is men are like in conflict. Fast, fast, fast. Fact, fact, fact. Hey, man, we listen and give some space. So that's the again. There's your little hack that I've learned. Hey, Jana, so what I'm hearing from you is when I do this, that makes you feel. So that's number one. Don't. Don't steamroll. Dudes can steamroll. Dudes can steamroll. You already hit acknowledged when we're overthrown. And man, if, if you are a. If you are a wise, self aware, self controlled man, you will be mature enough to understand. Dude, please don't, don't pretend it's just women who get emotionally overthrown. Like, are you crazy? Like, yeah. Yes. It may look different sometimes, but men are the exact same way. When you start noticing you're having level nine reactions to level two statements, bro, you're overthrown. Or when you're seeing stuff that's like, bro, it's not even. That's not even there. Like, you're. You're overthrown. Here's what I have learned. And Jan, I'd love for you to speak into this. Am I right? Am I wrong? Would you say it a different way? Okay, what I've learned is that acknowledging your feelings makes way to speak lovingly about the facts.

[B]

Okay, say that again.

[A]

Acknowledging your feelings makes way to speak lovingly about the facts. So for instance, you'll be. It's that whole thing of when she's talking feelings, you talk feelings. When she talks facts, you talk facts. Yeah, we'll get in. And you're vocalizing how you feel about something.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Well, I'm trying to bypass it. Like, well, you shouldn't feel that way because of this fact.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And hey, let me just say some, and this is really annoying to me. Some. I think bad Christian teachers are like, actually, the facts don't matter and you just need to get unit to unity. That's really stupid because the Bible says the truth is what's going to set you free. Yeah, yeah, we have to deal. It's not her truth and your truth based on her feelings and your feelings. No, we're talking. We need to get to. We are Christians. What is the truth?

[B]

Right, okay.

[A]

But what I will say is, like for men, if you'll take time to acknowledge and in some ways validate her feeling. Hey, what I'm hearing from you is when I do X, that's making you feel, it sort of starts to pull the emotion out or at least begins to lessen it because the person feels loved and understood. They kind of feel like you're on their side now.

[B]

Well, and you feel known. Like it's kind of like there's an understanding. You're. You're seeking to understand. Okay, this is what makes you feel this way or why your response was that, like, there's a deeper understanding there.

[A]

This is simply the in game application of First Peter 3. Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way. So in conflict, if you get to that spot where it's like, okay, I disagree on the facts, I'm gonna get to that later. First man, it sounds like that made you feel X when I did Y, it just, it lowers it. And then it starts to feel like, oh, now we're working together against the issue and the division instead of we're working against each other. Agree?

[B]

Agree.

[A]

All right. I hit in the sermon that there's a dude named John. I think it's John Gottman that he, he studied these couples and for 13, 16 years, something like that. And this guy, this was crazy. He can literally watch a couple do conflict for five minutes and predict with a 92% accuracy if their relationship is going to make it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because there are four things that he's like, he called him the. And I hit this a little bit in the message that he called him the four horsemen of conflict.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

One of them is stonewalling. That's like, I'mma shut down. I'm going to do this style silent treatment.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm going to go off in my corner and just ignore you. Men do 85% of stonewalling. Okay, so 85. Now, it's interesting. In our marriage, that's not me, but in general, men. So. And let me just, like, call. Call this out, because when men are doing that, a lot of times what's happening is, you know, essentially, it's a form of I'm gonna punish you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, if I just withdraw and act like, I don't care about you and I don't care about your anger, you know, that it creates anxiety, loneliness, and fear in her. And you're going, I'm gonna punish you by taking away the thing that you need the most right now to feel close to me. So I will say this now, that's. Men can't do that, like, bro, you can't do that, like, be a man. We live. Men of God live by their commitments and their convictions, not by their feelings and their desires.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Why committed? To be one flesh with you. So I'm gonna stay in this thing. We're gonna get this thing taken care of. So that's what many to do. Now, I will say this. And Janet, you mentioned this earlier when we used to do. And this. A lot of people don't like it when I say this. When we used to do primarily counseling. What I would always tell young men is almost all young men walk into marriage scared of their wife's emotions. And if you do not conquer. If a young man doesn't conquer your fear of her emotions, then her emotions are going to dominate the house instead of your leadership. This is like a. This is a thing. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what will happen is. And this ties into what I call it the myth of servant leadership. Like, there's a lot of Christian men that radically misuse the phrase servant leadership, and it gets manipulated to where actually what they're doing is they just coddle and agree with and fan into flame any emotion that their wife has. And what's. What ends up happening is her emotions that sometimes can be out of control end up leading and dominating the home instead of his godly leadership.

[B]

Right. And you don't want to support a sinful attitude where, like, leading you down a bad path.

[A]

That's right. That's right. So, yeah, so. So you get. You got to watch out for that on that thing. Last couple things I'd say is for it doesn't matter what gender you are. Forgiveness and reconciliation need to be, like, as immediate as possible.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So we. We dropped this real quick on one of the previous podcasts, but there's been. We had this little book we read first year Marriage. About marriage changed our marriage. And there was a little thing they put in that book that we have used, I think only once or twice. But it's like if we're in a public setting and one of us realizes that we said something that offended the other person, we'll make eye contact. And I remember a couple times in Mount Washington where it's a little nonverbal signal in a public setting to make sure that an apology and forgiveness happens immediately without a word. Yeah, we'll just. I'm gonna do it to you right now. We'll just reach across and tap each other's foot and do I get you tap each other's foot. Like if we're in a. Like a dinner party or a hangout.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a way for us. We don't even want to have to wait till the get in the car an hour later. How do we, quote, not let the sun go down on our anger? How do we forgive immediately now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we want nothing in between us ever.

[B]

No. The goal is unity.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then, last thing I'll say is, you know, a lot of guys this series have been asking, like, okay, what does it mean to actually lead my family, lead my wife? Well, hey, bro, that happens in conflict.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, hey, one thing you can do is you. Here's what. Here's what you do. You demonstrate humility and leadership by. In the conflict. When you're in conflict, find something that you can apologize for. There's almost always at least one thing. Find something you can own and apologize for. And you lead by going first. You be the first to apologize, and it starts to diffuse things.

[B]

That's. I mean, that is so true. Like, I. It. Because when. Whenever you do that and you apologize, there's always something I need to apologize as well. And I mean, let's be honest. If you're in conflict, you know, a lot of times, most time, it's not just one person causing it. You know, you both have something usually you need to seek, you know, forgiveness for.

[A]

That's typically the case.

[B]

Typically.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Actually, can I do this little thing on the myth of servant leadership? And then we'll move on. And then let's talk about. We're going to talk about the servant stuff. Servant. Okay. And I'm interested to hear what you're going to say. Okay. This is one thing I do just want to. I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I want to click on it. Related to some of this last thing is especially in the late 90s, there was this whole movement of servant leadership. And in one sense, I kind of do like it because Jesus said, you know, whoever will be greatest among you will be your servant, and whoever be, you know, first will be last. All the things. But what I've noticed is among a lot of Christian men and in Christian families, that concept, it gets manipulated to mean something that is actually very, very damaging. Okay, and here's what I mean. Myth of servant leadership. I do not like the phrase because what a husband's supposed to do is you serve your wife by leading your home. You don't lead necessarily primarily by serving. You serve by leading. That's your job. Okay? So here's what will happen. Happen is you'll get passive men with like immature or like Jezebel wives. And what they'll do is they'll use this phrase, servant leadership as an excuse to like whitewash their, their passivity or their cowardice, their inability to stand up to their wives emotions. Like they're, they're. You have passive men, Ahab type men who, they're terrified of their wife's emotions and like her out of control emotions are actually dominating the home and they're scared of her. And then they'll like cower and they will never confront those things. And then they'll whitewash it by calling it, well, I'm a servant leader. Anytime she's really upset, I just do whatever I can to bless her and make her feel better. So here's what happened is she's like a fit throwing. She's immature, she's childish, she's selfish. And by the way, can men be all those things? 100%. But she's all those things. And instead of leading his house by correcting his wife, which like, hey man, that's your job. Sometimes that needs to happen. And sometimes your helper needs to correct you as the head. Okay? But instead of leading by correcting his wife, he just caters to all of her childish, immature, immature thoughts and feelings and fits. And then he caves on everything and he calls it servant leadership. I'm just a servant leader. Okay? So, man, I'll just say something that's like super, super un PC but like, yes, there are some times where it's a husband's job as the loving head of his home to like check his wife's emotions when she, you know, her emotions are. Maybe she's overthrown, you know, and he needs to come alongside of her and help her think a little more rationally. And sometimes she needs to do that. For him, by the way.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And come along and just go, hey, babe, actually, I think we actually might need to think about this a little differently. Or what if we thought about it like this? You need to do that, because again, here's a principle. It is possible for her to have real feelings based on wrong thinking. And in that moment, your job is to step in, loving gently, humbly, and lead. Don't be passive, and then try to make it sound righteous by calling it servant leadership.

[B]

Okay, Can I agree or disagree? I agree. I agree. Can I jump in there, though?

[A]

Please do.

[B]

Okay. Because there are always a. A lot of questions we get about, well, my husband won't lead. My husband won't lead. Well, okay. All right. Like, how does it go when he has tried in the past? Like, you're in this situation, he's trying to lead. He's, you know, you're saying you want to be led, but then it so happens you want to be led until he. He has to talk to you about your behavior, and then all of a sudden, like, you don't. You don't want to hear it. So, no, he's not going to lead you if every time he tries, you jump down his throat and yell at him about it. Yeah, he's. He's going to stop.

[A]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's transition, and then. And then we can try to start wrapping up here. Okay. So we received Carlos, when it, like, didn't we get, like, almost 250 questions for this one?

[B]

It was. This was the most questions we got out of.

[A]

Most questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

More than any. Any week. It's insane. Jan and I, on one of our walks, we started noticing a theme in what no one asks. So I just want to point this out. No one is asking questions about how they can better serve their spouse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'll just let me verbally highlight something I touched on in the message. A great marriage is two people who are walking into the relationship going, how can I out serve you? So it's kind of that thing, and I'll just remind. And then we want to dive a little deeper. You're going to have one of three types of marriages. If you have. If you have two takers, your marriage is going to feel like a battle.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm trying to get this. You're trying to get that the book of James says, what causes fights and quarrels among you? You want something and you don't get it. If you have two people who are like, I'm trying to get what I want. Doesn't matter what you want. I'm trying to get that. Your marriage is going to feel like a battle if you have a giver and a taker, the marriage, honestly, it's gonna feel like abuse. Where it's like, I always get taken advantage of. You know, she over functions and he under functions and she always kind of gives and he always takes. It's gonna. Honestly, it's gonna feel like abuse. Yeah. But then when you get two people who walk in going, I'm a giver and she's a giver, honestly, it just feels like a blessing.

[B]

It does. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, if we. I think if Jan and I were going to boil the biblical teaching on this down in 250 questions. Everybody's asking questions about sex. And I get it, man. That's great, because that's fun when you're married. Okay. But honestly, if you really want to improve your marriage, maybe, like, it's not sex that you need to improve the most. Maybe a servanthood that you need to improve the most. And heads up, can I say this? When you improve the servanthood, the sex improves too.

[B]

It does, yeah.

[A]

Okay. So what we want to do is, like, honestly, the questions that we're getting, we're realizing, like, bro, it's rough out there.

[B]

They were. Yeah. Some that were very heartbreaking.

[A]

Like, it. So we just get the scent, man. A lot of selfish taker and taker marriages. So here's what we want to do. We just want to give, like a behind the scenes nitty gritty and maybe a little PG13 stuff even too here, because people need understand how it works. Like, let's give examples of what it looks like when you got two givers, by the way. We're going to give examples of how Jana serves me. And what we're trying to do here is give wives, like, ideas.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And then Jana is going to give some ways that I serve Jana to give our dudes some ideas. We are not acting like we're Jesus. We got this figured out out.

[B]

And it's going to look different for your family. And that's why you're supposed to be students of one another and figure out what works for you to like to serve and pour into your spouse, because it will. It will look different. There's going to be things that are more helpful to you than they would be tests. But. But one thing we've got noticed over the past few weeks is, like, everybody asks us for examples, so we're just giving you examples from our life. And you. You do what you need to.

[A]

Maybe God, as we're doing this, he's going to start to give you ideas. And then just trust me, man, like, every single one. Just trust me. If you improve the servanthood, you're going to improve everything else, including the bedroom, because that's where everybody asks questions about. So, yes, Jana, why don't you start. And I have no idea what you're going to say.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Like just ways that you serve me.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's give some ideas, and then I'll do the.

[B]

You work hard and you take care of our family. You're always checking in on me, especially on your way home. Is there anything you need from me? Is there anything you need me to pick up for you or do on my way home that would bless you. You're emotionally consistent, so that. That's a huge blessing. It produces stability in our home. We always know who's going to walk through the door. And you just are. You're just very emotionally consistent. You honor me in front of other people, and then you correct the kids if they're giving me attitude or grief about something.

[A]

I do that. Hey, man, you don't talk to my wife like that.

[B]

I appreciate that. I like it a lot. You lead our family well. You are present. You decline doing things outside of Lake Point just so you can be present in our home. You. You are, you know, present our home. You focus on our church body, you focus on our marriage. You focus on our family. So you lead us well. And I love that. When I have too much on my plate, usually you notice it before I do because I just want to try to do it all. But you helped me figure out what needs to go in the season because every season you can handle different things and new things get put on your plate. So you're really good about helping me sift through what's most important for the Howerton family in the season. Um. You can tell me. You. You always tell me when it's been too long since I've had time with friend. You notice when I need friend time, and then you make sure that I go have that time.

[A]

Can I just point something out?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, even with that example, what you're gonna notice? And again, we don't always get this right. I'm just giving an example. So notice. The quote unquote struggle we have is you are working too hard and passing up time with your friends because you're trying to serve our house and me. And then I'm coming to you and our quote unquote. Fight is. Nope. Quit working hard and go spend time with your friends, because I want to serve you. So just notice, here's where you know you're winning. You're winning. When the disagreements are about, I'm trying to serve you. No, no, I'm trying to serve you. That's when you're winning. So keep going.

[B]

That's good. You write me notes and you hide them for me to find later. I like this.

[A]

Sometimes inappropriate ones.

[B]

It's fun. I like it. You are open in conversations. There's nothing we can't or don't talk about. We talk about everything. You're very open and honest. I love that. And you're romantic, and you keep things. Things fun and exciting, and you make me feel known and loved.

[A]

That's great. It's very easy. Let me. Okay, this is fun. I made a little list.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

But these are. And these are things people might not think about. But again, the goal is, man, ask God. As we're going through this list, man, give me some ideas, some ways that I could serve my spouse in a new way and just watch what happens. Gonna change everything. So, number one, you respect me. You speak very highly of me, about me in front of me, and when I'm not present. So I. I don't have. I don't have a feminist Jezebel wife where there's a power struggle in our home. Like. Like, honestly, I think this would surprise people. Like, if I were to try to not lead our home and not be the head of our home, it would be Jana saying, no, that's your job. That's your. Like, so we don't have that. You honor me in front of the kids. You'll say things like, man, guys, dad works so hard. Or if we get to do something special or take a trip, you know, you'll go out of your way, like, hey, dad made some extra money for us to be able to do this, and you'll honor me. You have laid down a career and opportunities to bless me and serve and prioritize our home. Like, people don't know this. Like, I'll just. People like Jana, You've begun to get requested on podcast. Like, honestly, like some big podcast. And, like, Jana has literally made the decision. Ah, no, not right now. I'm homeschooling my kids. And, you know, I want to make sure our home is good and that Josh is taken care of. You know, you pray for me before preaching, and every single time, I'm getting ready to walk out the door on Saturday And I'm nervous about the sermon going bad. You say the same thing every week, and it's like a little Pavlov's dog for me. You say it's gonna go amazing, but I mean it.

[B]

Like, I don't speak falsehood or just to build you up for the sake of doing that. I mean what I say.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Did you look over the list I sent you? I don't wanna say something that would embarrass you.

[B]

Oh, you can say it.

[A]

All right. Okay. But seriously, I wanna give couples, like, dude, you need to know the serv thing applies to every area of your marriage. And people ask a bunch of questions about intimacy and things like that. It's like, hey, you need to understand with this. That's the purpose of podcast. You are a sexual blessing to me. Like, hey, man, if I'm going on a trip, Jan's going to give a send off. You know, if there's a big meaning coming up, Jan's gonna be like, we're gonna make sure you know all this.

[B]

You have all the confidence.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. All the confidence. You are not passive in the bedroom. I don't need to go in, but it's like, you know, not pillow princess. Just sort of just lays there, you know, it feels weird, but I'm trying to.

[B]

I never heard of that expression.

[A]

Well, somebody put it in one of the things and I was like, what's that mean? And I groked it. Oh, that's what that means.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it's like, hey, and I really mean this. Like, all the questions on sex and intimacy that we get, like hundreds of them. If two of you will just sit down and ask the. You ask yourself the question in the bedroom, am I a servant of my spouse? Ask that question in the bedroom. Am I a servant to my spouse? And all the questions that y' all are asking about mechanics and da, da, da, da. Like, all those questions are going to start take care of themselves when in every area of your marriage, including the bedroom, you're going, I'm here to serve and not to be served. Okay. Jana, you're a dress in appearance. Like, it's the, you know, if we're gonna be alone, it's the date night dresses. It's the. She's trying to pick stuff that Josh. That is appropriate for the public, but that Josh thinks is hot. Sometimes what you're wearing underneath the date night dresses, she's picking things that are gonna be a blessing. Mondays, the kids are out of the house, and we work out together, and Jana picks fun things to work out in. You know, it's like little things like that she's trying to, you know, keeping the marriage sexual. It's a bl. Okay. There's little things like this. Like when I told you after one of the Internet mobs that I was, like, having a little anxiety to preach. And you remember, I was like, man, I'm starting to have this. A negative emotional reaction to my office. And I walked upstairs to write, finish writing the sermon, and you had literally put. Because I said, there's a smell in the office. And when I smell this smell, it brings back the emotions of some of these negative things. And I walked up there that day, and Jana had bought a bunch of candles and lit them ahead of me getting in there so that I didn't smell that smell with a bunch of notes about how God was going to use the teaching. And.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I made sure to pick, like, some of your. Your favorite scents to put in there, too.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, this is just. Hey, I just want to serve and bless. It's little stuff like Jana. Now, again, everybody's home is different. Jan. There's nothing wrong with a woman working outside the home. It's not that a woman's place is the home. It's that a wife and a mother's priority is the home. Jana. Heavy emphasis on that. So, like, our home is stocked. Dude, she runs that place like a business. It's like a she keep an inventory. So it's, you know, if I'm out of deodorant, I'm never out of deodorant. It's like one stick's gone. There's three that she's got back there. Okay, The Listerine's gone. Well, I got four more bottles. And, you know, little things like that. I'll get home from trips, and you will unpack my luggage. Just for. I didn't ask you just unpack my luggage, do the laundry. Like I should be doing that. But you're looking for a way to serve.

[B]

Hey, can I say something about this? Just, like, to be helpful, like, so, like, you know, you learn things over the years and things change over the years, but you know, what it used to be is, like, when Josh would get home from a trip. And I'm not trying to throw any under the bus here. I just want to give an example.

[A]

I know what you're saying.

[B]

You're right. So it would be like, two weeks go by, and he hasn't unpacked his Suitcase. And I used to get frustrated with him, but then I was just like, why am I frustrated? Like, this is an area I can clearly be a blessing. Why don't I just choose that and like it now? It doesn't. When he gets home, it doesn't bother me to see a suitcase. I, like, unload it pretty immediately because I like to stay on top of laundry. I try to be on it and get everything taken care of. And so it's like something that used to be an annoyance is no longer annoyance. I just have learned to use it as an opportunity to be a blessing. And I am a much happier person now because of it. And Josh is blessed because of it. And so take something like that and flip it it. Like, God can flip it.

[A]

You're an incredible blessing. Incredible, I think. Yeah. So basically, those are some examples and what you should do. I'm telling you, man, your marriage will totally change when both of you begin to walk in the door going, how can I serve you? How can I? Everything's going to change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, Jana, let's. You want to finish with some of the Q and A's, and they were kind of gritty.

[B]

They were.

[A]

They're kind of gritty. Let's finish with some Q and A. And then it's date night for us.

[B]

I know. Looking forward to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. You want me to.

[A]

Let's do it fast. We gotta do this quick because. Yeah, I got a little thing. Yep. Let's go.

[B]

Okay. All right. I'll take the first one. Okay. This is kind of like. It was broken down in, like, three different questions. Somebody sent the same. It was the same person. So this feels like warfare. It's like demons harassing. I. I think she's talking about her husband's mind. During conflict, husband struggles with shame. Conflict equals. I'm a bad husband. Even small comments get twisted and misunderstood. So. So I think what I wanted to say here, I want to remind you, is that we do have to remember we. We are in war. There is warfare. And so Ephesians 6:12, it says, for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against spiritual forces of ev. The heavenly realms. And so you all are not at war against each other. And it's kind of different since you're not talking about you personally. You're talking about your spouse struggling with this. But one thing that. That I do is, like, I. I do. I daily pray over our family, and I do pray against spiritual Warfare. Because there is a lot and your marriage is some. It's a place where Satan, he wants to steal, kill and destroy. And so I say just keep, keep praying over your husband. Pray over his mind for, for those comments not to be twisted and misunderstood. I would pray that there's like, you know, if there's any sort of veil, like for that to just fall off and for him to be able to have eyes to see and hear in ears to hear correctly and you know, just praying over, you know, his identity in Christ and for that shame, like, just for him to understand that, like, if he's in Christ, you know, that that shame is gone. So I would just keep praying, Just keep, keep praying over him.

[A]

Yeah. So I'll add some things and this applies to every marriage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So first of all, the image in the Bible is that husbands and wives are compliments. So whatever is your strength, whatever is your weakness, I'm gonna try to be the strength right there. This is a great example of that. So if you notice that he's got a weakness in him in and that's a lie, you know, the enemy. Satan is the father of lies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you notice he's got that in him, you as a spouse, as a wife, or as a husband, you become the compliment and use your words. The book of Proverbs says life and death is in the power of the tongue. Counter the lie. Figure out what the lie is in his heart and speak the exact opposite over him constantly. So if he thinks he's a bad husband or a bad man, you decide, I'm going to be the person that says the. I'm going to shower him with the op. You're an amazing like. And like, choose the moments when he's not in conflict.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To when he's not even verbalizing that this is a struggle and build him up outside of it. You're an amazing. Catch him doing something right. You're an amazing husband.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're an honorable man. And what you're going to notice is the encouragement in the mouth of a wife is strong in the heart of a husband. The other thing I will say to go a layer deeper on this is the Bible uses the word stronghold. Sometimes things do become strongholds. And what I would say is if you try and try and try and you can't get rid of either a lie or a sin, you're not dealing with a sin anymore. You're dealing with a stronghold. That's how you know it's a stronghold. I've tried to try to Try it. I can't get rid of it. That's a stronghold. So shameless commercial because it's for something that works. The 10 week discipleship experience for Rooted. In my opinion, the two most powerful weeks are the prayer week and the strongholds week. That strongholds week is stinking a nuclear bomb of grace. So you need to get in. Everyone, every single Christian needs to do rooted at least once in their life at Lake Point. You can get into that by texting the word rooted to the number 20411. There's an entire week on this. It will specifically, specifically teach you how to deal with this situation.

[B]

Yes. And what I wanted to like also say, like reading so many of these questions. So we can only answer so much of it because we don't know your full situation. We don't know the ins and outs. That is why you needed. You need to be in a rooted group or you need to be in a life group because you need community surrounding you, walking through these things with you and people who can, can like, who can help you navigate some of these situations. So definitely get in rooted. Get in a life group. You won't regret it.

[A]

Let me hit. I'm gonna do a quick one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then I'm kick it back to you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We may. That may be it. We'll see what time we got time for. Just pick your juiciest one. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The number of questions that were about in laws was stupid. Like, so first of all, just know and y', all, you know later you can pick any question about in laws. There was like, I felt like a hundred.

[B]

There were a lot. And there were a lot last week and the week before.

[A]

Yeah. It's like so first of all, just know there are four things that in your marriage, according to both our experience and data, you're going to fight about the most. It's going to be faith, money in laws, sex and parenting. Actually, that's five. Faith, money in laws, sex and parenting. Let me do a little theology on this because you know, honestly, the stuff on In Laws that was not good. So here's the deal, man. What everybody needs to understand. Let's go back to Genesis. We have a theology of how we should and should not treat our in laws. The book of Genesis says what happens when you get married is a man shall what A man shall leave. Who leave his father and mother. And let me just highlight this. I'm a highlight one specific word because this is what a lot of the questions are about. He's going to leave his father and his mother. Because a lot of the questions were specifically about mom in law. So first of all, the moms, the mom in laws that are listening, let's do a good job of understanding what our role is and is not. So let me just say it. What Genesis says is when somebody gets married, they just left their parents, they left that family, they started their own family. And now the rules are different. And hey, in laws, you have to understand your job as a godly, in law, as a godly parent has just changed and you need to repent your way into that. So for instance, someday our kids, they're going to grow up, they're going to have their families, their own. What some people will do is I've heard well meaning, meaning, well meaning parents say this, oh, our sons get married, we're adding a daughter to our family. Dear sir or dear madam, no, you are not. That is not what's happening. What will happen when Eliana gets married? We will not be adding a son to our family. Our daughter will be leaving our family, starting her own new family. And in that moment, moment, we will become extended family. And then the rules change. At that point, it's me and Janet's job to understand we are not the priority anymore. It is her job to prioritize her immediate family over her extended family. And if the what and that may mean she needs to set some boundaries. Hey, you know, mother in laws and father in laws, unsolicited advice, that's a great way to lose. Don't do any of it. You know, we've had wise people, hey, wisdom from us, advice from us. That's going to be a one way door. We'll give it if you ask for it. But you're going to have to walk through that door. Otherwise we're going to keep our mouth shut, Things like that. Women are by nature territorial. That's just how God created women. And when, when mom in law starts trying to do things that are actually mom's job, job or, or wife's job, well, she, she's not going to like that. And, and so a lot of the questions surrounded, this is a ton of the questions surrounded. Mom in law is getting up in the family business and the wife's husband will not deal with it and he will not set a boundary. And what I would say is, hey, bro, get in there. That's your job. Yeah, you deal with your parents and in general, you deal with your parents. Let her deal with her parents in general as best as that can work. But your job Is you got to be able to get in there and set a clear boundary, because, hey, buddy, you just started your own family, and you need to set the correct boundaries to prioritize your immediate family over your parents who just became your extended family. That's some general guidelines. Anything you would add, subtract or.

[B]

No, I think that's good.

[A]

Good. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, let's do another one.

[B]

Okay, I'm gonna pick this one. How to navigate nitpicking from a husband. Okay, so let me talk to the husband.

[A]

Quit doing that, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hummingbird, not buzzard.

[B]

Yeah, but I do want. I have, like, I. Again, I know nothing about the situation. I don't know what's going on. But I do want to point out one thing that can happen sometimes. Now, not always, maybe. This is definitely. It is an issue of nitpicking, and it. It needs to come to an end. But ask yourself, like, is he nitpicking or is he just asking you a question or needing you to do something that is. That it does fall to you to do? Because I think sometimes, like, especially if you're really busy or maybe in a season with, like, little kids, like. Like, he's just like, I don't know. I need clean underwear. Hey. Like, we haven't had food in the refrigerator for a few days. Like, hey, can you. Can you go grocery shop? You know, I don't know what the issue is here, but I have seen that happen and play out to where the husband just has realistic questions and honestly, even expectations of things that do need to be happening that you have kind of dropped the ball with, and it's not really nitpicking. He's. You know, and so. So just. I would. I would navigate that. Is it nitpicking or is it something that. Hey, like, you know, you. You just need to. Yeah, I just need a. I need a. I need to fix it. I need to do it. And then, honestly, it's just like, if that's the case, then, you know, just move forward. You don't need to. You need it. Well, if you need it, apologize. Apologize. But, um. But then it's like, don't. Don't get, like, caught in that. That spin cycle of, like, oh, I'm just awful. I drop all the balls, and I can't get anything right. Because, no, that's not the case. It's just, you know, there's opportunities to. To fix it. Like, I mean, Josh has to, like, hey, we're out of this. Can you. Can you make sure that Next time you shop, can you. Can you get this? It's no big deal. So. But I don't know your situation but just navigate which one it is. But then other one.

[A]

Otherwise listen one thing because I will just for husbands, watch out for this because in general I feel like women have more sensitive consciences than men in general. In general. And sometimes what men won't realize, like we've navigated this because your conscience is sensitive and you care a lot about doing a good job. Sometimes you'll. In the past you'll receive questions as commands and we've had to talk about, oh hey babe, actually that wasn't a command. Yeah, that was just a question. But if you receive a question as a command, it honestly can't. It can be frustrating if you feel like you're just getting picked and bossed around all the time. But just make sure we don't receive questions as commands.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And don't be an a hole and ask questions in ways that are derogatory.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Right.

[B]

And just like, yeah, listen to last week's podcast where we talked about being hummingbirds, not buzzards. And we go into what that means and how we want to be breathing life into our family and the people we love.

[A]

Amen. For the glory of God and the good of a wonderful blessed Jesusy marriages. Jana, would you pray for us?

[B]

I'd love to. Father, thank you so much for who you are. Thank you for how you love us. Thank you for honestly just giving us everything we need for life and godliness in you. Father. There's nothing that we can't gain from you, nothing we can't get you. You give us what we need and when we need it. Father. So I pray that if there are any questions that we weren't able to get to. Father, I just pray, Father, that you will give each person wisdom as they seek you, give them revelation and just give them a desire for unity in their marriage and to love one another and to walk in humility before each other. Father, I just pray that you will bring so much fruit into each marriage. And I pray that I just pray that each one of the marriages of our people, I just pray that they will love you and just be an example of Christ loving the church to all, for all others to see. Father. So I just pray that you'll continue the work you've started in us, help us each to learn to be better spouses and do it all for your glory in Jesus name.

[A]

Amen. Thanks for tuning in to live free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church. Livefree. We'll see you next time.