SHROUD OF TURIN: Physical EVIDENCE for the Body of JESUS!? (ft. Dr. Jeremiah Johnston) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

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Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode 69: SHROUD OF TURIN — Physical EVIDENCE for the Body of JESUS!?
Date: March 30, 2026 | Guests: Dr. Jeremiah Johnston | Host: Josh Howerton (Lakepointe Church)

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Episode Overview

In this pre-Easter episode, Pastor Josh Howerton welcomes Dr. Jeremiah Johnston—resurrection scholar, author, and former skeptic—to discuss what might be the most provocative artifact in Christian history: the Shroud of Turin. Dr. Johnston lays out the latest scientific evidence and historical data on the Shroud, arguing it is not only authentic but possibly physical evidence for both Jesus’s crucifixion and his resurrection. The conversation is candid, skeptical, and faith-affirming, aiming to strengthen believers and answer common objections across denominational lines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why the Shroud, Why Now?

• Josh’s skepticism: Coming from a Protestant background, Josh admits initial reluctance, suspecting Catholic relic skepticism. But after hearing Dr. Johnston on the Michael Knowles show, he became open-minded.
  • Quote: “No joke, dude… I’m 20, 30 minutes in and I’m like, holy crap… there may be something to this.” (03:11, Josh Howerton)
• Why revisit the Shroud?
  • Dr. Johnston describes his journey from skepticism as a resurrection scholar to advocating for the Shroud’s authenticity, emphasizing rational investigation, not credulity.
  • Quote: “I was conditioned to be a skeptic on the Shroud, and now I believe the Shroud is authentic, Pastor Josh. Because I’m not irrational.” (00:06, 06:55, Dr. Johnston)

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2. What is the Shroud?

• Biblical context: The Shroud of Turin is believed to be the actual burial cloth of Jesus Christ, as detailed in all four Gospels.

  • Dr. Johnston connects terms in the Gospels: sindon (Matthew, Mark, Luke), athonia, and sudarium (John) — essentially showing the burial was with linen cloths, including a face cloth.
  • Quote: “The Shroud of Turin is believed to be the actual burial cloth that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus used to wrap the crucified, brutalized dead corpse of Jesus in on Friday, April 3, AD 33.” (04:09)

• Dating the Crucifixion & Resurrection:

  • Dr. Johnston uses lunar calendars, Roman history, and even NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory to pinpoint the date:
    • Crucifixion: Friday, April 3, AD 33
    • Resurrection: Sunday, April 5, AD 33
    • Quote: “If we cannot believe that Jesus died by Roman Crucifixion on Friday, April 3, AD 33…” (04:34)
    • Quote: “Sunrise was 5:43am on that morning.” (05:02, Dr. Johnston)

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3. Scientific and Historical Evidence for the Shroud’s Authenticity

• Physical Description & Uniqueness:

  • The shroud is a 14-foot-long, 3.7-foot-wide fine linen cloth with a visible, anatomically correct image of a crucified man.
  • Blood stains, herringbone weave, evidence of traumatized Type AB human blood (rare and Semitic), and even rare pollen grains cement its context to first-century Jerusalem.

• Details Matching Gospel Accounts:

  • Wound Patterns:

    • Nails through wrists (not palms) and feet, side wound through ribs 5-6, 372 distinct scourge marks, crown of thorns puncture wounds (over 30-50 on scalp), and no broken bones.
      • Quote: “We see a man who has been crucified and pierced with actual nails in the right spot through his wrists, not through his palms of his hands. That’s medieval Christian art that messed us all up.” (18:42, Dr. Johnston)
      • Quote: “He definitely has a broken nose, but no bones broke. That’s just cartilage.” (21:45)

  • Blood Chemistry:

    • Trauma-induced high bilirubin (explains persistent red color), high ferritin and creatinine consistent with organ failure.
      • “The blood itself has high levels of ferritin… creatinine… which means the crucified man was experiencing organ failure, kidney failure. We believe he lost one third of his blood volume during the flogging.” (14:52)

  • Pollen & Dating:

    • 38 out of 58 pollen samples only bloom in Jerusalem during Passover season.
      • Quote: “38 of the 58 pollen spores on the shroud only bloom in Jerusalem in springtime...” (25:21)

  • First-century context:

    • Reference to “tomb of the Shroud” discovery (other shrouds confirming leprosy, shroud use), Masada shrouds, and physical comparison.

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4. How Was the Image Formed?

• Photographic Evidence:

  • In 1898, Secundo Pia’s negatives reveal detailed image—much more pronounced than the naked eye.
    • Quote: “The photo negative is actually the photo positive. When you take a picture of the shroud, when you invert your phone camera, you see it in all of its rich and amazing detail.” (16:11-17:20)
  • Notable moment: The hosts try the negative image trick live.
    • (30:41) “Now open your camera... look at the shroud... see how it pops?”

• Scientific Testing:

  • The 1978 STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project) team proved there is “no pigment, no dye, no paint, no color, and they were inconclusive about how there is an image in the shroud” (41:11).

    • Only possible mechanism found: 34 billion watts of light energy in 1/40 billionth of a second (Paolo DeLazzaro, physicist; 43:33–45:45).
    • Quote: “The best scientists in the world cannot explain it… They were able… to basically change the size of a postage stamp, not 14ft… 34 billion watts of energy traveling at 1/40 of a billionth of a second to leave an image on the shroud is what Paolo de Lazaro said.” (44:52)

  • Resurrection Moment Hypothesis:

    • The energy/flash theory corresponds to the biblical description of Jesus’s resurrection in brilliant light—possible scientific evidence of the resurrection moment itself.
    • Quote: “So the shroud is not a death cloth, it’s a resurrection cloth.” (44:52)
    • Quote: “What we have is this signature on the shroud of the moment of Jesus’s resurrection that is so powerful, it literally left a selfie mark on it. This is Jesus’s selfie.” (46:30)

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5. Addressing Objections & Skeptic Questions

a) Anatomical “Errors?”

• Objection: The figure’s long arms/fingers look “artistic.”
  • Response: Shoulders and arms elongated due to dislocation (Psalm 22, “my bones are out of joint”)—consistent with crucifixion trauma.
    • Quote: “It’s because his shoulders have been pulled out of joints... Psalm 22... wow.” (37:39, 37:48)

b) Carbon Dating 1988 (Medieval date claim 1260-1390 AD)

• Response:
  • Corner sample was taken from a medieval repair patch, not the original linen (confirmed by 2019 Journal of Archaeometry).
  • Sample not representative; British Museum suppressed data for nearly three decades.
  • Other dating methods (waxes, X-ray crystallography) confirm 2000-year-old age.
  • Quote: “Utterly corrupt data based on... Journal of Archaeometry... the sample tested is not homogeneous with the shroud itself... you need to update your research.” (61:56, 64:07)

c) Medieval Relic Context / Catholic Relic Objection

• Response: Unlike most relics, the Shroud is testable, scientifically examined, and stands apart in history and evidence.
• Quote: “It’s not a relic. It’s an artifact. It’s been tested by the sciences.” (78:53)

d) Second Commandment (“Graven Image”) & Jesus’ Hair

• Response: Not an image made by human hands; not worshipped as an idol.
  • Quote: “The Shroud is not man made... it’s the moment of resurrection. No man made the shroud.” (66:44)
  • Regarding Jesus’s hair: No evidence first-century Jewish men had short hair—context is Roman, not Jewish (1 Corinthians 11). (68:41)

e) No Evidence Before 14th Century?

• Response: Referenced by Eusebius, traceable in Edessa (544AD), Constantinople, and more with documented transitions, matching pollen trails and historical records.
• Quote: “It’s simply a lie that there’s no historical evidence of it for the 1400s. Get infected with a little history and it’s easily answered.” (73:01)

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6. Maximum Faith Impact & Notable Spiritual Moments

• Shroud as Evangelistic & Discipleship Tool:

  • The shroud’s evidence has proven transformative for skeptics, young people, and seasoned churchgoers alike.
  • Quote: “I tell people all the time now that the Shroud is an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves you.” (37:07)

• C.S. Lewis’s Testimony:

  • Lewis kept an image of the Shroud above his fireplace to remember “our God has a face.”
    • Quote: “Lewis kept an image of the Shroud… so every morning his feet hit the ground, he knew our God has a face.” (16:28, Dr. Johnston)
    • Lewis: “There is so much difference between a doctrine and a realization.” (68:41, quoting Lewis’s letter)

• Faith Application:

  • Spiritual significance of Jesus taking the crown of thorns (Genesis 3 as symbol of judgment), “our curse became Jesus’s crown” (34:41–35:05, Carlos).
  • Shroud presents proof of crucifixion (contra-Islam) AND resurrection (contra-Judaism/atheism).
    • “You have death, burial, and resurrection in one artifact. And nothing outside the Bible does that except the shroud.” (73:56)

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7. Probability and Iconography Evidence

• Mathematical Probability:

  • Dr. Bruno Barberis: “1 in 200 billion chance it is NOT Jesus”—based on all physical and historical matches (53:25–54:52).
    • Quote: “The numbers force me to believe, it’s him. Of course it is.” (54:42)

• Early Artwork & Coins:

  • Jesus’s iconography from as early as the 6th century matches Shroud face, including the Justinian solidus coin and over 200 ancient icons—pre-dating medieval theory by centuries (57:37–58:51).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Jesus took the first selfie.” — Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (02:23)
• “What we’re looking at behind me is the best evangelism/disciple tool I have ever used and seen in my life.” (11:18)
• “The Shroud is an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves you.” (37:07)
• On scientific challenge: “The best scientists in the world cannot explain it…” (43:33)
• “You would have to torture and crucify a Semitic man and then do it exactly how the Bible says… starting to see why… the most explanatory power shows it is Jesus’s grave clothes.” (25:24)
• Josh (after seeing negative image with phone): “What the heck? What the heck? I had no idea!” (30:45)
• Lewis’s reflection: “There is so much difference between a doctrine and a realization.” (68:41)

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Key Timestamps

• 04:09 — Dr. Johnston defines the Shroud; sets date of crucifixion.
• 11:21 — Personal impact, shroud as faith tool.
• 14:27 — Blood evidence explained (Type AB, traumatized blood).
• 18:42 — How image matches specific biblical wounds.
• 25:21 — Pollen analysis; unique to Jerusalem.
• 30:41 — Hosts invert phone cameras to reveal the image live.
• 41:11 — STURP 1978: Science proves no pigment/dye/paint.
• 44:52 — Energy required for the image; hypothesis: moment-of-resurrection flash.
• 53:25 — Probability evidence: “1 in 200 billion” it is not Jesus.
• 57:37 — Icons and coins matching Shroud’s face, predating medieval art.
• 61:56 — 1988 carbon dating “utterly corrupt,” later debunked.
• 66:44 — Second Commandment & long hair questions.
• 68:41 — C.S. Lewis, doctrine vs realization.
• 79:25 — Even if the Shroud is a hoax, faith stands on historical resurrection—Shroud is a bonus, not a foundation.

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Faith Invitation & Closing

• Invitation (83:18): Dr. Johnston shares a simple gospel invitation for listeners wrestling with belief:
  • “Jesus, I trust that your payment was enough for me on the cross and that you rose again. I believe that.”
• Final Prayer (84:31): Dr. Johnston prays for listeners to encounter resurrection power, encouraging faith, hope, and evangelism.

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For Further Reading

• The Jesus Discoveries: Ten Historic Finds that Bring Us Face to Face with Jesus by Jeremiah Johnston (released 2026)
• For documented responses to objections, Dr. Johnston references articles he’s written (links in show notes).

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Summary Takeaway

Whether you’re a longtime believer, skeptic, or just curious, Dr. Johnston insists the Shroud of Turin is the most forensically, scientifically, and biblically robust artifact from antiquity. But even if the Shroud were somehow disproved, the foundation of Christian faith remains—the historically and spiritually anchored resurrection of Jesus Christ. According to the evidence, both scientific and spiritual, the Shroud is not just a burial cloth, but possibly a 2,000-year-old “selfie” left for the world, capturing the very moment history—and eternity—changed for everyone.

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[End of summary.]

Transcript

[Josh Johnson]

A real guy died on a real cross for the real you. And if you really give him your life, he can really change it forever.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I did my PhD on the resurrection. I've published 300,000 words on the resurrection. I was conditioned to be a skeptic on the Shroud, and now I believe the Shroud is authentic, Pastor Josh. Because I'm not irrational.

[Carlos]

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching, watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for Church Online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church Online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now enjoy the podcast.

[Josh Johnson]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode number 69 of Live Free with Jeremiah Johnson. We are really excited, very excited to be here, John.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Thank you, guys.

[Josh Johnson]

So for people who are unaware of what's about to happen, I seriously think this is going to be the most interesting episode of Live Free we've ever done. And I'll explain why here in a second. We're gonna go full Indiana Jones.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Let's go.

[Carlos]

This episode, this is like Da Vinci Code meets Nicholas Cage, National Treasure meets

[Josh Johnson]

Indiana Jones, but without the heresy.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That's right. That's right. Thank you. Have the overt Antichrist heresy.

[Carlos]

That's how it feels. That's right. That's right.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so here's my lead in. And if you're listening when I say this sentence, if you roll your eyes, I'm asking you to stay with me. We're getting ready to spend, like, an hour talking about the Shroud of Turin.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Let's go.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so let me just set this up. I literally just saw this two days ago. I'm scrolling X and there's a new. I think it was Newsweek. They do this article on, like, what did Jesus really look like? And they do this every Easter, and it looks like a Neanderthal that somebody drew Exactly. Yeah. In seventh grade. And so here's the question. Here's the question. What if we actually already know what Jesus looked like? Because of what you're about to walk us through, bro.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Not only that, Jesus took the first selfie. Whoa. We're about to check it out.

[Josh Johnson]

My 15 year old daughter will be delighted.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And it was powerful. It was a powerful selfie.

[Josh Johnson]

I'm very excited.

[Carlos]

Had Flash on it.

[Josh Johnson]

Yes.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay. Big time Flash. Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

There you go. Okay, so let me set this up and then honestly, I want you to do the talking. So this is a special pre Easter episode that I think is going to boost, encourage people's faith in the resurrection.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Significant 1000%.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so let me set up why you're here and why I would never have had you come talk about this 12 months ago.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Thank you.

[Josh Johnson]

So, no joke. This is a true story. Dude. So last Easter, leading up to Easter, I'm getting ready to just sort of debrief. It was a Sunday night, I finished preaching. I was like, I'm gonna listen to a podcast. A thumbnail pops up for me of you on the Michael Knowles show. And it was about the Shroud of Turin. And no joke, dude, we'll talk about this in a second. I'm team Protestant, so I'm like, oh, man, Relics. And that's like a Catholic thing. I'm super skeptical and I see the thumbnail and I'm like, who hoodwinked Knowles? Yeah, that's seriously what I thought. So then I click it and I'm like, what Crackpot hoodwinks Knowles. You start talking and dude, no joke. I'm 20, 30 minutes in and I'm like, holy crap, this guy. There may be something to this so special pre Easter episode of Live Free. Bishop Jeremiah. Can we just.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I'm not a bishop. I'm not a Catholic.

[Josh Johnson]

Well, amen.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Amen.

[Josh Johnson]

Let's just start right here. Okay. Because Live Free. Free. It's a bunch of normal dudes.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yep.

[Josh Johnson]

Let's start right here. Quick introduction for People have no idea what we're talking about. What's the Shroud of Turin?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

The Shroud of Turin is believed to be the actual burial cloth that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus used to wrap the crucified, brutalized dead corpse of Jesus in on Friday, April 3, AD 33.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow. That was very specific. Wow. Actually, can I click on something?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

Friday, April 3, A.D. 33.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Nissan 14.

[Josh Johnson]

How are you getting that specific date?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

It's amazing. Well, it's because the resurrection and the crucifixion of Jesus is the best established fact of the ancient world. If we cannot believe that Jesus died by Roman Crucifixion on Friday, April 3, AD 33, based on the lunar calendar, Nissan 14, 3500 years. The Jews always celebrated Passover at the time the Torah said they should. Based on the two opportunities that Nissan 14 could have occurred during Pontius Pilate's reign, 26 to 36 A.D. we have two options. A.D. 30, A.D. 33.

[Josh Johnson]

Wait, say that last sentence again. All right, so during. We know. We know the dates of Pontius Pilate's reign. I know that's 36 AD and you said there's only two opportunities.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

There's only two times the lunar calendar aligns with Passover on that Friday that Jesus could have possibly been crucified during his ministry. And there's two great options, actually. Friday, April 7, AD 30. But I'm more convinced that it's Friday, April 3, AD 33, for a variety of reasons that I get into, but without a doubt, it's a. I do. And so it's the best. But the point is, if we can't believe that Jesus died on that Friday and rose again on Sunday, April 5th, which, by the way, is this Sunday, April 5th. Isn't that ironic? Let's go. Wow. So April 5th, AD 33 is the day of the Resurrection. We know from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory that sunrise was 5:43am on that morning. We could go back into it. When the women. When the women go to the tomb, they're going there early. They're following Jewish burial traditions. They're going to continue spicing the body. We'll get into why they're doing that. And they're astonished because the tomb is empty. And they run to tell everybody about it. And that's when we have this amazing sprint. I love that the Bible talks smack. I love that John wants you to know that he's much faster than Slow Peter.

[Josh Johnson]

He.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

He takes two inerrant verses in God's wor to say, when the guy finally got there, we went into the tomb. And they see if you follow the chronology in John 20, this. This is where the Bible is so awesome. I've read it a hundred times. I'm a historical Jesus scholar. But I. I was humbled. I felt like Nicodemus when he said, when Jesus looks at him and said, you're the teacher of Israel and you haven't seen this. You don't know these things. I did my PhD on the resurrection. I've published 300,000 words on the resurrection. I was a complete. I was conditioned to be a skeptic on the Shroud. So I feel like the intro, I'm just mirroring you because I'm chuckling to myself. I've been through all of those things and now I believe the Shroud is authentic. Pastor Josh, Because I'm not irrational.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay. Because I'm not irrational. So all right. To lead this in because you're going to. I want you to get some of this stuff that when I heard it for the first time, legitimate. I'm upstairs in my little hangout room.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Everyone's about to get shroud pilled.

[Josh Johnson]

Dude, it's, you know, take the red pill. Here's what we're going to do. Let me, for people who are listening, here's what we're going to do. We're going to let Doc Jeremiah do his thing and then what I'm going to do. And he told me before the podcast not to tell him what objections I'm going to throw at him. Yeah, so you're going to do your

[Jeremiah Johnston]

thing and then I'm on AI Anyways, I know.

[Josh Johnson]

So I had some help from a researcher also. So I'm going to throw at you the strongest objections to the legitimacy thing. Let's see what you do. So there are talk about real quick, for people who are unfamiliar, we actually have Bible verses about the burial cloths. Reference those real quick so people know what you're about to do.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So what we're doing here is not anti biblical. It's in the Bible. It's fascinating to me that all four Gospels, we have 89 chapters in the Gospels. All four Gospels lead up 1/3 of those 89 chapters are about what happened that Easter weekend. And they all mention the evidential detail that there were burial clause. Matthew, Mark and Luke use the term athonia, which is exactly what's behind me right now. What people are looking at a fine linen burial cloth, a herringbone weave. John's gospel comes along and gives us two other details. It talks about the sudarium, which is the face cloth that the disciples find in the corner of the tomb. That's the one he folds, right? And then we also hear the strips of linen. And that, excuse me, is Athonia. Sindon is what's in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Let me be clear. Sindon is Matthew, Mark and Luke. John is Athonia and sudarium. So we have three different terms for burial used in the Gospels. Also, all four gospels make a very specific point that chronologically Speaking. When John saw the linen clause lying there, he saw and believed. So that's my hope for the payoff of the, of the broadcast today. You mean like John, did he not believe before that? Oh no, he, he was a follower of Jesus, but when he saw the shroud, he really believed. Okay, so that's the payoff of this broadcast. Watching it all the way through is your faith is going to be strengthened and you're going to be, you're going to have a measurable strength. You're going to have a First Corinthians 15:57,58 experience based on this broadcast. I promise you.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, all right, so let's get into it.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

It's biblical.

[Josh Johnson]

All right, what am I looking at?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay.

[Josh Johnson]

And why do you think this thing's legit?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I think it's legit because first off, the Shroud of Turin, I, I was utterly skeptical of it until I actually bothered to get past the sound bites and look at the substance. So I, I had heard about this flash. My doctor father, Craig Evans, who's probably the finest Jesus scholar in the English speaking world, 700 publications on Jesus, he begins to tell me about the out. And he's like Jeremiah, we can't quantify the amount of power. You should really look into this then. My pastor, Jack Graham on a Friday night.

[Josh Johnson]

We love, we love Dr. Graham.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

We love him. He's the OG. He tells me on a Friday morning men's Bible study after I'd been kind of tinkering with the shroud stuff a little bit and he said, well get up and just share what you're learning. And guys, then I was like, there's video this. I was like, no, I'm not going to stake my academic reputation on this, but let me just share what I'm learning. But here's something for all the dudes watching. I'm looking out there at the time of my son Justin. I have four boys, one daughter Justin, my son, who. To get him to talk about football or Xbox or girls for anything more than one sentence is an impossibility. He is locked in spiritually.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And I'm just sharing about the resurrection and all the facts of the shroud. And I'm watching my. This is a 6:30am Bible study. I'm watching my 11 year old son and it is impacting him. And I was like, brother, I will go all over the world that research this.

[Josh Johnson]

Amen.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

If it's get you excited about your faith.

[Josh Johnson]

Good job, dad.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So then I'm in Jerusalem, I'm filming A series. And I've been in more tombs than anyone you've ever met. In fact, I was laughing today because I was in a tomb in Emmaus. And the. The producers. I hope I don't mess the audio.

[Carlos]

They.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

They do this. And I thought, what are you clapping for? And like, oh, we're scaring the snakes away. You need to do this in one take. That was at the Emmaus.

[Josh Johnson]

Indiana Jones in the tombs.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I'm filming. I had a day off and I go to the Athonian Museum and I see some of the show and tell. I'm about to show your audience and you too, car, by the way.

[Josh Johnson]

We don't know what's coming. So I'm very excited, bro.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

It takes my breath away. No one's there. And it turns out that the Holy Spirit is really good at his job. And it literally takes my breath away. And I have an experience with the Lord that it's now the best evangelism. What we're looking at behind me is the best evangelism Discipleship. Discipleship tool I have ever used and seen in my life. So we're looking at a burial cloth. We're looking at. And this is typical. We have hundreds of burial claws from the land of Jesus, which is Jerusalem. We have. We even have a burial shroud from the tomb of the Shroud. People can search this up. There were Bible deniers that said that the Bible was false because Hansen's Disease wasn't around in the time of Jesus. Well, guess what? The tomb of the Shroud, it was so airtight that when we discovered it 20 years ago, it actually has flesh on it, hair on it, and it has Hansen's disease on it. And it's dated from the time of Jesus, showing that there really was leprosy.

[Josh Johnson]

You said the tomb of the Shroud that we discovered 20 years ago. What is that?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That's just another Shroud tomb. We have so many different. A different one. I'm just making the point that we have lots of shrouds.

[Carlos]

We still find those.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Find them. And this one actually had leprosy on it, proving that Jesus really. This one? No, the one. The tomb of the Shroud. I'm just giving the example. We have. We have shrouds at Masada, where you've been. Lots of shrouds at Masada. And so what's unique about the Shroud of Turin is that it has an image of a brutalized, crucified man that has complete correspondence with the crucial crucifixion narratives that are embedded in the Gospels, I.

[Josh Johnson]

Walk me through it.

[Carlos]

And by the way, this is, this is it.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is it.

[Carlos]

This is the exact one.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is a one that. Well, the exact one is in a reliquary and turin. But this one comes from Stara, from my friend Barry Walsh, who's now deceased. He literally did the TED talk on the Shroud. So we acquired, based on our really good friendship, I acquired this from his organization. And now we use this as this tool. And so what you're looking at, that's 14ft wide by about 3ft 7 inches. And this is. Matches. It's, it's a one to one scale and it matches. No one else was crucified in the Roman Empire the way Jesus is. This is the crazy thing, the blood type that's on it. Two Jewish hematologists studied the blood. Helen and Adler. They're Jews. They don't have a theological ax to grind. It's type AB blood. It's human blood. And the reason the blood is still red 2000 years ago is because this blood has been tried traumatized. It's from a traumatized individual that when you're experiencing torment and trauma, your red blood cells break down and create extra bilirubin. They secrete it and that's what's kept the blood red all of these years. And there's blood all over the Shroud. Type AB blood is Semitic blood. Less than 6% of the world's population has it. If there was ever a priestly line of blood, it'd be type AB blood. So it's human blood, it's not animal blood. It's blood from a traumatized person. I read a recent hematological report. The blood itself has high levels of ferrit in it, which means the crucified man was experiencing organ failure, kidney failure. We believe he lost one third of his blood volume during the flogging and its high level of creatinine, he was dying. So again, if you were going to

[Josh Johnson]

call this from the blood, just from the blood that were in the fibers,

[Jeremiah Johnston]

these are published in academic journals. So here's the bottom line. 102 academic disciplines have studied the Shroud. 600,000 hours of scientific research, and I believe the Shroud is authentic based on their research, because I'm not irrational. They all cannot explain how there's an image in the Shroud. So if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might be a duck.

[Josh Johnson]

So, all right, so like, you know, you've kind of dipped your toe in the water Here. All right, walk me through everything that's here.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay. That. Most compelling.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, that makes people go, dude, that may have been the. That is. That's the burial shroud of Jesus. Well, and then what's the theory on how the image got on there? All this stuff.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Well, and also I want to pull up, I have a 13 second video on CS Lewis's bedroom. I had lived in Oxford, did my. Did my doctorate there, had been to the. Been to the kilns numerous times. And I took my pastor there recently, and I had never. Because, again, I didn't care about the Shroud. So maybe I saw it, maybe I didn't. Couldn't care less at the time. Well, during all of this phase of research, we literally go in to C.S. lewis's bedroom, and we have a Lewis scholar who is guiding us, and they take us into CS Lewis's bedroom, and he had a fire. It's a very modest bedroom, by the way, but he has a fireplace. And above the mantle of the fireplace is the picture of the man of the Shroud. And I asked the question. I said, tell me about this, because, I mean, Louis is no Catholic, right? And think about it. He dies in the 1960s. He has Henri's photo, which is 1931. I think that was like high res for its time in the 1930s. And she said, oh, yeah. In fact, if we have the video, it'd be cool to pull it up.

[Josh Johnson]

This is 13.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is. This is 13 seconds. This is me. She. This is a CS Lewis Scholar. We're in his bedroom right now, you guys. He says that I literally pulled out my iPhone and said, wait a minute. You got to say that again.

[Josh Johnson]

Wait, is that the wardrobe? Probably, like.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So Lewis kept an image of the

[Josh Johnson]

shrouded Turin above his mantelpiece as a reminder that our God had a face of the Incarnation. Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Here it is. And we're in his bedroom right now. Lewis kept CS Lewis an image of the Shroud. So every morning his feet hit the ground. He knew our God has a face.

[Carlos]

Jeremiah, for people watching this, they'll be like, well, that photo doesn't look like this photo. Can you explain that for people?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah. So in 1898, you guys, photography is invented. In the 1840s, there's no professional photography. In 1898, a Christian man by the name of Sikanda Pia decides he wants to take a picture of the Shroud. We had always known there was an image on it throughout church history. But, dude, something happened in the dark room. So this is before celluloid film. This is before the days we could take pictures on our phones. I've seen the actual camera in turn. It looks like a dorm fridge. It's massive glass plates. Okay. The exposures took 14 minutes and 20 minutes each. There was no electricity. I've been in the St. Giovanni Cathedral. That's the St. John Cathedral, where the Shroud is to this day. He builds a scaffolding, takes a picture, goes in the dark room. In the dark room, he sees the image of Jesus's face, which he believes he's the first human being looking at the face of Jesus since the apostolic era. And never more appropriately says, oh, my God. And then literally. Literally, oh, my God. And then he develops it. He's immediately accused of being a fraudster, a hoaxter. And I've seen the actual photo, and that's what's crazy, is the photo negative is actually the photo positive. When you take a picture of the Shroud, when you invert your phone camera, you see it in all of its rich and amazing detail. And we actually have. I can show you on our slides here, we actually have an image of it. So this is what we have behind us. And then in the dark room, you see on the right, all that on the right is actually the photo positive. The negative is the photo positive. And this is where all of the details come out in striking fashion.

[Josh Johnson]

So start walking me through, because, dude, I'm. I'm a dumb Kentucky kid. No, it just looks like a bunch of triangles and lines. What am I looking at? What makes us go, this is this. This is Jesus.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So what makes us go, this is Jesus is the image itself corresponds with all the ways in which we know Jesus was crucified. We see a man who has been crucified and pierced with actual nails in the right spot through his wrists, not through his palms of his hands. That's medieval Christian art that messed us all up. We see.

[Josh Johnson]

I can see on the right, you can see the. The wrist cross, literally.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And then we. I mean, I don't want to get too technical, but even the way the blood is flowing, arterial and venous blood flow matches how he died on the cross. So the way the blood is flowing on his arms is the way in which it should if you were actually crucified. There's blood at the bottom and then behind me as well, where the heat. The feet are crucified through the calcaneus, literally right through the heel bones. And that matches again, what we have of, like, the. Another Yehohanan, poor soul, crucified under Pontius Pilate. We actually have his heel bone and the nail going through it. And Israel Antiquities Museum. So all of this is exactly how the Romans killed and executed non citizens in the first century, Especially in the Syrian province of Jerusalem. Keep going though. We have a side wound. So the triangles itself. Let's go to the next slide too, if we can. The triangles itself. So I want you to see this. The triangles are just patches. The shroud has amazingly survived five different fires. There's scorch marks on it, there's water stains all over it. So you have to deal with two things. You have to deal with all the contact marks on the shroud, but then you actually see the image which we'll get to this selfie. But I want you to see the side wound which if we go back to the vertical image, if we can, I want to show Pastor Josh and Carlos. So look at that. Do you see the left side right next to the triangle, the inner triangle on the upper left there is a fluorescent almost figure 8. Do you see that?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, I do.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That is. Wait, wait.

[Josh Johnson]

To the right of the inner triangle

[Jeremiah Johnston]

on the upper, upper, upper torso of Jesus on the left side. Yep.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah. Okay, I do see that.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So it's the left side. You can see that on the. And and what is that? That is the side wound through rib five and six. Jesus is crucified.

[Josh Johnson]

Holy cow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Hold this.

[Josh Johnson]

What is this guy?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is a replica that we had made. It's not an artifact. It's an actual replica of the spear that would have pierced Jesus through rib five and six. And guess what? It matches with one to one correspondence. Why does the man of the shroud have a piercing through rib 5 and 6? That blood is postmortem blood on the shroud.

[Josh Johnson]

How do you know that?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

The hematologist published it.

[Josh Johnson]

Really?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That blood is different than all the other blood on the shroud. John's gospel says blood and water comes out serum albulin. I'm probably saying it wrong. Has already separated from. Because I'm not pretending to be a hematologist. Has already separated from the blood in that spot alone.

[Josh Johnson]

And that blood's different than all other blood.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah, because it's post mortem blood.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Carlos]

Jeremiah, was it common? I know. Obviously Jesus was stabbed on the side. That was not a common practice. No, crucifixion was common. That's right. Okay, so this was unique for Jesus.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is unique for Jesus, which again, you start looking at the probabilities. There's no broken bones on the man of the Shroud. And I want to be careful. He has a separated septum. He definitely has a broken nose, but no bones broke. That's just simply like cartilage. So no broken bones on the man

[Josh Johnson]

of the Shroud, by the way, for listeners. That was prophesied.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Exactly, exactly.

[Josh Johnson]

That was the prophecy that took.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So let's. Let's keep going, you guys. More show and tell. Keep this going.

[Carlos]

These are heavy, by the way.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes, this guy. Oh, hold this. All right. You've got an A. This took my breath away. I think it's John 19:1, but I know it's John 19. And Pilate had Jesus flogged. Pastors, we go right by that verse so quickly, and it's like we didn't even read it. Jesus is flogged with that rawhide. And remember, the Jews had a rule, 40 lashes minus one. Rome had no such rule. And I am an expert in execution, so I know how dastardly. I mean, these guys would often be drunk. Poor Antigonus, who we have remains from in Jerusalem. He was crucified and then decapitated. And they were so drunk, they got the chops wrong on his head a few times. So we actually have evidence. And the Bible says that Jesus is flogged, that Pontius Pilate has him flogged. And do you see these barbells? We've actually counted up the amount of shredding, the amount of lashes. There's 372 lashes on the man of the Shroud, front and back, 372total. But keep in mind, Pastor Josh, we don't have the side. We don't have the lateral sides. Because when Jesus resurrects, it's an image of the moment he literally passed. We'll get to this through the shroud. We don't have the side angles, and so we can estimate 700 of these hit the man's body. And that's where he loses one third of his blood volume. And I want you to see how short that is. In a way, there is a really demonic intimacy to how Jesus is tortured. And we know there were two. There were two. One was hit, the other one was cocking back to fire. Each time. Then they turn him around, there's gashes.

[Josh Johnson]

Do you know that? At what you just said? From the shroud or from historical sources? Both.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

They correspond. So. But what I had never seen before was an actual. This is a flagram. This is a Roman whip called a flagram. So that match is being flogged. And we know that he Endures that most died. 60% of the criminals just died at that point. So the strength, the man. What I like about Jesus, he's a man's man. He's 5 foot 10 to 5 foot 11, weighs 170 to 180 pounds. This is a very physically fit man. A lot of walking, A lot of walking. Probably swinging a hammer with that 20,000 miles in his ministry. Probably walking if you count all the times he went to Jerusalem. But it doesn't end there. So Jesus is flogged and all of this matches we. All we're doing is, we're comparing. We're almost doing a Where's Waldo right now of, okay, what does the Bible say and what do we see? Signature on the shroud. There's another thing that blew my mind. Mind. You already have your mind blown.

[Josh Johnson]

I'm ready, man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Max Fry, a criminologist, literally studied all of the pollen on the shroud. Okay? It's pollen season. It's Passover, right? It's Easter time. We're all, we all have pollen on our vehicles, especially here in Texas. And he studied the pollen samples. 38 of the 58 pollen spores on the shroud only bloom in Jerusalem in springtime time.

[Josh Johnson]

What?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

The other 20?

[Josh Johnson]

Kidding me?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I, I, dude, truth is stranger than fiction.

[Josh Johnson]

So again, you start adding, say that one more time.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

38 of the 58 pollen spores on the shroud that. Max Fry, a criminal, a criminologist, studied and has a whole respected career as a criminologist, spent five years of his life studying the pollen. Okay? Five years of his life. They only bloom in springtime in the land of Israel. So if you're a hoaxer, how would you know that? If you're a hoaxer, how would you know Type EB blood? How would you. You would have to torture and crucify a Semitic man and then do it exactly how the Bible says. Then you'd have to rub the shroud through Jerusalem on Easter weekend at the time that all these plants are growing. You're starting to see why. The evidence, the most explanatory power, shows that it is Jesus's grave clothes and we have the moment of resurrection. We actually may have scientific proof of the moment of Jesus's resurrection left on the shroud.

[Josh Johnson]

Holy cow. Okay, is there, I got questions. Is what, Is there anything else? You're like, hey, man, I want to call attention to this.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

We're just getting started here.

[Josh Johnson]

Keep going, dude. There's more, there's more.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Hold this. Very few people have Held this. This is no replica. This we just acquired. And this is an actual first century crucifixion nail. I'm not saying it's the one used on Jesus. Let me be very clear. But this was used to crucify enemies of Rome, slaves, non citizens in the Syrian province. Do you see how it's bent? Carlos and Josh?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

What I had to learn through research was the nails were far more valuable than the crucified victims. They would use the nails again, again and again and again. Do you know why it's bent?

[Josh Johnson]

I just did it from multiple use.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Multiple use. But not only multiple use. Oftentimes they would want to minimize movement but maximize torment. And they would adjust the nails of the crucified victims while they were dying and being crucified. Can you imagine the agony? And so over time, this nail has been bent from usage, but also from torturing and Colossians 2:14. I love this, you guys. Paul says that Jesus took all of our indebtedness, all the debt we could never pay back, and he nailed it to the cross, so we don't bear that shame anymore. So I can bring all the faith lessons in with these. And what do we see on the shroud? We see four piercings on the shroud. Two in the wrist, two in the heel bones. And that's exactly what you're holding in your hands. That is a first century crucifixion nail.

[Josh Johnson]

Century crucifixion nail.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

From Rome, From Jerusalem.

[Josh Johnson]

From Jerusalem.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And it has a square shaft, so without a doubt, it's first century. And it matches another. Anyone can look this up. You can pull up the crucified victim called Yehohanan John, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate. We actually have his heel bone. We have an olive wood, actually washer. These guys were experts.

[Carlos]

Yeah.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Can you imagine? So it be through the wrist and then for anyone out there, like. Well, the Bible says hands, or it's all the same Greek word, forearm, hands.

[Josh Johnson]

It's just like the NBA.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

If you get them on the wrist, it's a hand.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Exactly.

[Josh Johnson]

Same thing.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Thank you. Great analogy. So it matches though, the heel bone crucifixion nail that we have in the Israel Antiquities Museum. Six inches long and just imagine that.

[Josh Johnson]

Jeez, that's. That's a little overwhelming. I didn't know you had that.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And it's. Yeah, it is overwhelming and it should be. But guys, we can't stop there. What else do we see on the shroud? There are 30 to 50 puncture wounds on the head. The scalp help. The back of the head.

[Josh Johnson]

Can you see those up there?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes, you can. In fact, we have a slide that's really clear.

[Josh Johnson]

That guy.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah, Pull that one up. That's helpful. And then we actually have one with red where I've actually made it red. But this is this. All the blood fluoresces, which is fascinating to me. It apps. It actually fluoresces. And so what you're looking at is all of the blood on the forehead. There's blood, you know, literally in his hair, all over his face. That's the broken nose.

[Josh Johnson]

This is like a rendering.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That's a rendering of it.

[Josh Johnson]

And so that's based on the shroud.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Based on the shroud and the sudarium. The face cloth. And so that's perfect. So that one is amazing to me. Is it all right, if I look around. Look back here.

[Josh Johnson]

Forced.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Dude, right here. I'm gonna invert my phone.

[Josh Johnson]

Like, literally right there.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah. So let me. Let me do something right now. And any one of you can do this. If you have an Android, go watch another podcast. But if you have a.

[Josh Johnson]

There's other churches for you. Like, Point's not one of them.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

If you have an Android, it's color inversion for Android. But I don't have an Android. I'm gonna do settings. You guys do this with me.

[Josh Johnson]

All right, so what do I go?

[Carlos]

Very appropriate.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Just settings.

[Josh Johnson]

Settings.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

All right, and. And I have the update. So I'm just going to type classic invert in general. Okay.

[Josh Johnson]

Do you see just under search. Classic.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Classic Invert, Invert. And it'll bring it up and then just press that button. Your camera will do that or your phone will do that. Yeah, Turn it on right there.

[Josh Johnson]

Classic.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Turn it on.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay, now open your camera. All right. Look at. Look at the shroud.

[Carlos]

Oh, wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And see how it pops? But what I wanted to point out was the back.

[Josh Johnson]

What the heck? What the heck? I had no idea.

[Carlos]

That's amazing.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Wow. That's.

[Josh Johnson]

Holy cow. Wait, can they see this? Can we get this on camera somehow?

[Carlos]

So, yeah, there you go.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Go.

[Carlos]

You can see Carlos.

[Josh Johnson]

Look at you.

[Carlos]

You can see him. Hey, y.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is what Sapia sees in the dark room and says, oh, my God. But what I want you to look at, guys, is the back of the head. All the blood on the back of the head. That's the back of the head of.

[Carlos]

This is the back.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yep, that's the front. Because remember, it covers him like a pita folded.

[Josh Johnson]

That's right.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

He's laid and Then it's laid over him.

[Carlos]

I see it. I see it.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Jeremiah, there is blood all over the head. So if Jesus was wearing a wreath of corns of thorns or a sweat band of thorns, you would not expect to see there's more blood on his head perhaps, than anywhere else, which is shocking to me. We think actually when he was flogged, they probably blinded one of his eyes because one of the eyes is literally. I had a dentist email me the other day claiming you can even see his teeth, which is fascinating. I haven't looked into that yet. Somebody probably should. But this is so the. Let's follow the chronology since it's Easter weekend, Jesus is brought before Pilate. It. Pilate has him flogged. That's not enough. And then he. They fashion a crown of thorns and they put it on his head. Now I have again, a PhD in these things, and I have never seen a crown of thorns until three years ago in Jerusalem. I brought one to show you guys.

[Carlos]

Oh, come on.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is a replica.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This, when I was speaking at the World Economic Forum on the shroud. Not lying. If I'm lying, I'm dying. My lips to God's ears. I'm speaking and I have blood all over my hand. I was wondering why everyone was looking at me.

[Josh Johnson]

Well, the.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

The replica. I have had pierced my hand.

[Josh Johnson]

Really?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah. So I mean, it's. This is just a replica.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow. Wow. Okay.

[Carlos]

Oh, it looks heavy.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That is a helmet of thorns, friends. Huh?

[Josh Johnson]

This is what.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So that is what they would have fashioned. And that is 30 to 50 puncture marks that we see on the crucified man of the shroud. And that's how he receive those. They would have fashioned that rammed it on his head and then brought him before the crowd. And that's where Pontius Pilate, in Latin, we would have heard echo homo, behold the man. And if I'm really being honest, all of us would have yelled, crucify him. At that point, no one would be saved this man. We would be in that crowd yelling, crucify this man.

[Carlos]

Man, Jeremiah, Is there any other historical source that portrays the crown of thorns like this? Because I know historically, you know, people picture more like a. Like a.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

All comes out of medieval Christian art. Like the feminist Jesus, the gay looking Jesus, the Jesus with no beer. That all comes out of medieval Christian art. Not a Jewish man who was killed like we see in the shroud, which we'll look at some images in a minute. But here's the faith lesson. And all of us wonder sometimes If God really loves us and we can get so desensitized to the cross. Romans 5:8 is what the Holy Spirit, when I saw this for the first time. But God demonstrated his love for you and me. And it's in the continuous. It's one of the two places in the New Testament God keeps demonstrating his love for us, and that when we were sinners, he sent his back to die for us.

[Carlos]

Here's what I would say, too. You know, some people wonder, why would Jesus wear a crown of thorns?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

They want to humiliate the man he's claiming to be king of the Jews. They will humiliate him in every way.

[Carlos]

Genesis also says that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, a curse fell on humanity. And because of our sin, creation was filled with thorns and thistles in Genesis 3. And then so thorns became a sign of judgment.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Judgment.

[Carlos]

And so at the cross, what we see is that that judgment was carried literally on Jesus's head. And so what that means is, at the cross, our curse became Jesus's crown. And so he. He willingly took the thorns on him. And when I'm. When I'm seeing this man, I'm just reminded that what the curse broke, Jesus can restore.

[Josh Johnson]

Come on, man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Well, cross.

[Carlos]

He does that.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That. And I'm thinking of the fact I have four sons, and I wouldn't give my four sons for anyone. And God knows me like no one else. He knows what a sinner I am. And he sent his best for me. He didn't send his worst. That's right. He sent his best. And so anytime I doubt if God loves me today, I think of these thorns, and God is demonstrating it even now while people are watching this podcast. That's why people need to share this with somebody who's hurting right now. Wow.

[Josh Johnson]

All right, keep. Keep going. Keep, keep, keep walking us through this guy. This is a lot to take in, man. It's a lot. It's a lot to take in.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So it's. It's. So then Jesus is crucified. He is. He can't make it to the cross, as we know, so we.

[Josh Johnson]

He.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

He's brutalized so bad. And. And one thing. I love the Passion of the Christ, the. The film. But one thing it gets wrong is they show Jesus carrying the entire cross. There's no way any man could carry that. So he just carries what's called the patibulum, the cross beam. Crazy thing is, beyond the abrasion, beyond the. The lashes on the back, we actually have a diagonal right top, right to left. Abrasions from him. Top of the right shoulder, down to the left. Literally the same abrasion marks from him carrying his cross that's visible on the shroud.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes. And geez. I remember when I was on Piers Morgan, he was trying to catch me in a question that a lot. Maybe you're going to ask it. His body anatomically is all messed up. Why is his arms so long and man. Psalm 22 is just washing over me right now. He said my bones are out of joint. David says that prophetically. And I think it's at that point when he's carrying the cross that his shoulders are separated even before he's nailed to the cross because he can't handle it anymore.

[Josh Johnson]

You. I'll just go ahead and say it. You did beat me to the punch.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay.

[Josh Johnson]

So one of the things I was gonna throw at you. I'm just gonna read it. Yeah. And if there's anything you missed, just say. Here's one of the objections is people say man. There's artistic and anatomical issues. I'm gonna read it.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay.

[Josh Johnson]

The image reflects characteristics more consistent with an artistic creation than a real burial imprint. It doesn't look like a da da, da. Like a man wrapped in cloth would actually look. And the guy has really long arms, fingers, especially his right arm and hand.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

What? And it's.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

They're. They literally sep. You're looking at.

[Josh Johnson]

He does.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I agree. It's because his shoulders have been pulled out of joints.

[Josh Johnson]

And what you're saying is separated. Hey, I agree. We have Bible verses for that absolutely are out of joint. Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Psalm 22. Wow. And wow. I gave my back to those. Literally. He gave. We see here in Isaiah. And then it doesn't stop there, because this is why what you're doing this weekend at Lake Point. Everyone needs to be here. We can get so desensitized to Easter. And I want to show you something else. Not only would we have yelled crucify him. I'm convinced too many believers are way too desensitized to what? Jesus. The price he paid. I tell people all the time now that the Shroud is an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves you. You think about all the financial terms that are used in the New Testament. We've been bought. We've been ransomed. We've been rescued. We've been paid for. What is the last thing Jesus says? A CPA term to tell us? Die paid in full. That was a. Literally a term of. It was a receipt had been given. And let Me tell you I'm bringing the receipts on the broadcast today because.

[Josh Johnson]

Come on, man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I want you to hold this.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay? I don't know what this is.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Look closely and tell me what if they resemble.

[Josh Johnson]

These look like little dice for a game.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That's exactly what you're holding. And those are not replicas. Those are actual Roman dice made of bone.

[Josh Johnson]

Made of bone?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Bone. Not human bone. Animal bones. And notice you can even see the numbers. They're from Jerusalem in the first century. I'm not saying these are the actual dice that were used, but Isaiah 53 and other passages said they divided, they cast lots, they gambled for my clothing. And that is exactly what you're holding. You are holding Roman dice from Jerusalem. I just got these in the first century. My son Jax was playing. One of my triplets was playing with him, and we were in the. We were in the drive through of canes, and he's like, dad, these stink. I was like, son, they're 2,000 years old. They're made from bone.

[Josh Johnson]

That's a dead thing.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah, it's like, wow, they do stink. And Matthew's got. Well, all four gospels tell us that while the author of life is dying right in front of them, they're too busy gambling.

[Josh Johnson]

Why? Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

For his clothes.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So let's make sure that our hearts are not desensitized.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

To the cross.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Carlos]

All right, Jeremiah. One more thing, cuz. Hold on, I got to go back to this one, if that's okay, Mr. Josh. So, cuz, you mentioned. You know, cuz everybody thinks this is, like, really long. It would imply that the. You said there were two guards hitting Jesus.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes.

[Carlos]

It would imply that every single time that the guards were hitting Jesus in the back, or I'm assuming anywhere, everywhere, there would be sprinkling off the blood. Blood on his enemy.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes. It would have splashed all over him.

[Carlos]

And so, man, like, you know, just, you know, First Peter, chapter one, verse two, says, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for the sprinkling with his blood, may grace and peace be multiplied. You. It's as if, man, Jesus's enemies are hitting Jesus. And yet the response of Jesus in return is his blood sprinkling over them. In the same way the Bible says that you and I were enemies, enemies of God. And because of Christ, we've been reconciled because of the sprinkling of his blood over us. Man, that's a. That's a picture of what happens with us?

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Carlos]

At the cross.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Carlos]

At the cross.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

As a hallelujah.

[Carlos]

Wow.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so you want to keep going here?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I want to answer. There was another part of your question that I need to crush real quick. What was the other part of your question? Anatomical.

[Josh Johnson]

And then the image reflects characteristics more consistent with an artistic creation than a real burial imprint.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I have to kill this for a minute. So in 1978, 33 scientists stirp shroud of Turin research project get permission not from the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church did not have ownership of the shroud until the 1980s. That was something I had to get through. I thought this was some Catholic relic for 2,000 years. And I get an allergic reaction to Catholic.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, we're Protestants. We're out on Catholic Relics.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I got 13,000 negative comments for saying that on Tucker. So I'm ready for all of them. So I do. Because I'm a historian. I saw the three wise men in the cathedral at Colne. Give me Thomas's pinky. No. This is an artifact because we can actually study it and test it with the sciences. So the Stirp team took several years to publish their findings. And what did they prove? This is the first time I've used the word prove. Science proved there is no pigment, there is no dye, there is no paint, there is no color. And they were inconclusive about how there is an image in the shroud.

[Josh Johnson]

Actually, I want to get to this. So tell me, like, all right, that's the question. So if it's not dye or paint, what's your theory on how the. How did the image even get on this shroud?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is where I got shroud red pilled. This is where I became a shreddy.

[Josh Johnson]

Let's go. Come on.

[Carlos]

Well, hey, live free nation. Easter at Lake Point is coming and we would love to celebrate with you. So no matter where you're tuning in from, we would love for you to come and join us April 3rd through 5th for a powerful and uplifting service as we celebrate the life changing truth that Jesus defeated the grave. Hey, this is a moment for the whole family to come and experience hope, purpose, and the story that still changes lives today across all of our eight campuses in the DFW area. Come hang out and let's gather to explore who Jesus is and why his story still matters. Also, if you come and visit us for the very first time and you tell us you're coming from the podcast, we would love to hook you up with some live free merch. Just find us in Our first time guest tent and let us know. Hey. For service times and details, text the word Easter to 20411 and we will see you there.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

The best scientists in the world. And let me be clear, I've met with many of these scientists. Scientists. I'm talking about weapons scientists, I'm talking about rocket scientists. I met one when we were doing our tour event in Southern California from the Jet Propulsion Lab. He's like, oh yeah, everything you said is accurate. He was working on the Mars project. And these are scientists Eric Jumper, John Jackson, physicists who are at Los Alamos Sandia Laboratories. They work on atom bombs. They get the weekend with the shroud and they prove that there's literally no paint, no dye, no, no brush marks works. They cannot understand how there is an image in the shroud. The best scientists in the world cannot explain it. So I fly to Turin, Italy and I meet with a guy named Paulo Delazaro. He is a. He is a physicist and he works at a Neo laboratories. Anyone can look this up. He spends another five years of his life studying how do you change with no pigment, paint, dye or brush marks, how do you change a. A made of flax, essentially a linen shroud. So they, they literally grew a shroud and they beamed their laser for five years at it and they were finally able to basically change the coloring of an. And to leave a mark without. Because otherwise you would scorch it. If it's too hot, it's too powerful to just burn it up.

[Josh Johnson]

Right.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

They were able to basically change the, the size of a postage stamp not 14ft behind us. And he publishes. And this went viral when I posted it on my social. 34 billion watts of energy traveling at 1/40 of a billionth of a second to leave an image on the shroud is what Paulo de Lazaro said, light. So we're talking about energy, cold energy. And this is the moment of resurrection. So the shroud is not a death cloth, it's a resurrection cloth. So I'm meeting with Paulo and I'm like, so are you saying it's Jesus? He's like, well, of course, course. 34 billion watts of energy traveling at 1/40 of a billionth of a second reminds me of all these passages because think about it. Jesus, every time he manifests himself in the New Testament, he manifests himself as brilliant light. The new heaven and the new earth someday will have no need for the sun.

[Josh Johnson]

That's significant. I just want to point that out for listeners. Yeah, trace that Real quick, because you got transfiguration. His face was changed, became like lightning, obviously. Yep. You got Revelation. Yeah, same thing.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

But you have. Paul and I have filmed on Roman roads at noon day. Okay. In the land of Israel. Curbed their first century roads. It's hot. I'm sweating. Paul says that he has an experience of seeing the resurrected Christ. And if you follow the book of Acts, he says it was brighter than the noon day sun. Is anyone getting chills yet? So what we have in this residue, what we have is this signature on the shroud of the moment of Jesus's resurrection that is so powerful, it literally left a selfie mark on it. This is Jesus's selfie.

[Josh Johnson]

So the theory is that in that same moment, in the same way that at the transfiguration, hey. His face became like lightning. It kind of. Hey. Upon resurrection, that same light of glory manifested itself and left that. That's the.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And it pushed a 2,750-pound tomb out of the way.

[Josh Johnson]

Way gracious.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

But let me show you. This is animated. Okay. So play this for a minute. I want you to see. This is a shroud. Now hit play.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Boom. Wow. That is what happened. That's slow motion, huh? So Jesus didn't, like, stand up like Lazarus and take his grave clothes off. His body emanated at the moment of resurrection through the shroud.

[Josh Johnson]

What makes you say that?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

There it is. Look.

[Carlos]

And by emanated, Jeremiah, you mean literally, physically?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Well, because Jesus appeared here in rooms and then disappeared.

[Josh Johnson]

He walked through the door.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So the body has new capabilities, as ours will in the resurrection. It is not. It's not. This world does not have any control over him anymore. And so I thought he would, like, stood up and pulled off. No. So when John. Does anyone have a Bible? John 20. We need to look at John 25. 8. So we created this shout out to Stargate Studios and Malta. So this is what John would have seen. Peter. So John 25:8. Can you read that?

[Carlos]

Yeah. Verse 5. And stoop in to look in. He saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came following him and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloth lying there and the face cloth which had been on Jesus. Jesus's head, not lying with the linen cloth, but folded up in a place by itself. Then the other disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in and he saw, saw and believed he saw.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And what did he see? The linen cloth.

[Josh Johnson]

Fascinating.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And you guys.

[Josh Johnson]

Oh, dude, I'm just putting this together. So you're saying he may have gone in and seen. That's what the imprint on the.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And I believe it was still glowing. Huh. Now this is speculative, okay? This is not his. I don't. I haven't proven this. I'm working on an article on it right now. Because he goes to the tomb early, there's no electricity. I mean, this is. This is an animation. I mean, I doubt that the sun would have reached it because it would have gone down into the tomb. I've been again in tombs. Tombs. This was a rock hewn tomb. Well, I've been in the actual tomb. We wouldn't have had sunlight like that coming in. I believe the face of Jesus was still glowing on it when he saw it.

[Carlos]

Why?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

What else does he see in the world?

[Josh Johnson]

Think about that verse. To give them the ability to see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Dude, I'm going to say that one more time. The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I had never seen that before. It was not until chronologically they saw. So this. And then I do want to clear. This may be one of your tough questions for me, but I want to clear something up. There are so many fine Christians and I've gotten this email a thousand times. That's why I wrote it in my book. So they say Jeremiah, John's Gospel said linen strips, plural. And they think that Jesus is a mummy. They think that he was mummified. So let me clear this up. Help find Christians like me who get confused by this. If we didn't have John's Gospel, the only word that's used is sinden, which is behind us. Fine linen cloth, singular. John's gospel gives us the face cloth sudarium, which we can talk about, but then it also uses this term, athonia, that's plural. So I want you to see that. We see strips around the singular shroud at the head, the feet. I was leading the tour recently with a bunch of college kids and they all take pictures of themselves asleep, you know, with their mouth open, and then post them at each other and bully each other and all that. So they actually would do that. There's a jaw band. They just to dignify the body so when you're dead, you're not like, you know, they would actually. So Athoni would have been probably there as well.

[Josh Johnson]

That's where the strips.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes, that's where the strips come from. So we're not doing anything unbiblical. Here we're actually exegeting the scriptures. We're letting scripture interpret scripture. The four Gospels. So the answer is yes to all four gospels. And that's what he would have seen, which is so helpful.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so, like, I was looking at this book, by the way. This. This is. This is great.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Thank you.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, first of all, for listeners, title, the book is the Jesus Discoveries. Ten Historic Finds that Bring Us Face to Face with Jesus. Pretty recently published, right?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah, like in the last two weeks.

[Josh Johnson]

Congratulations. It's awesome. We'll stick it in the show notes and I think we'll have some copies in the bookstore. But so you got this thing on pay. It's on page 30.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Probability. This blew my mind.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so. Yeah, yeah. This is insane. So talk me through. Don't we have this?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes.

[Josh Johnson]

Do we have the probability thing?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

There are the two slides right there, 29 and 30.

[Josh Johnson]

Talk me through this because this is my. And then I want to start throwing at you the objections.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah, absolutely. So here we see all of the different wound patterns that match the crucifixion narratives embedded in the Gospels. I want to share something with you. The most evidence that we have from antiquity about crucifixion comes from four sources. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

[Carlos]

On.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Crucifixion was so agonizing and so irrelevant to the Roman Empire because no Roman citizen was crucified. So we actually. The best description we have from antiquity of crucifixion are the four Gospels. Tacitus doesn't really get into it. Suetonius, Diocasius, Josephus, a little bit. But as far as the description of crucifixion, also, this is why, if we want to invent a religion, we would have never invented it the way the Gospel writers did. I have an article or I have a chapter in my book Body of Proof. What the Gospel writers should have done better if they were inventing a false narrative rather than a real one, because everything they said flew in the face of what the Roman mindset would have accepted. And so look at this. Look at the scourge marks. You can see it. The feet wounds. There's that side wound I was pointing out, the blood angle, the wrists, the elongated arms, the wound pattern. There's those shoulder abrasions. Josh, do you see those right there from carrying the vertibulum on the left?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah. Top left. Yep. Yeah.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

His body is in Rigamortis. This is important, actually. So he's probably in the tomb 39 hours. That's Mark 12:40. They say, give us a sign. He says, I'm going to give you one sign. I'm going to give you the sign of Jonah, my resurrection from the dead. So Jesus body does not decay. There's no decay on the shroud. So rigamortis usually lasts 39 to 45 hours.

[Carlos]

What does that mean, Jeremiah?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Rigamortis is when your body stiff, stiffens, and so his body would have been very stiff. That's why we even can see that, like the buttocks is even like. I mean, it's like he's flinching all over his body. His muscles are tight because his body, his head is elevated, his knees are up because his body is in rigamortis at the moment of his resurrection. And there's no bodily decay oozing on the shroud. My body will not see decay.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Sacrifices and offerings you did not require, but a body you prepared for me. So there's no body, bodily decay on the shroud. And so that's what we see. So now let's go to the probability ability. So fast forward. Barbarous. I'm in. I'm in Turin and I have to meet this mathematician named Bruno Barbara. All the credit to him and the irony of his last name, Barbarus is not lost on me at all. This Easter weekend, he did a calculation. He is a mathematician. He has been with the actual shroud one over 100 times. Like, if the President of Italy wants to see the Shroud, Bruno shows you the shroud. He's given 4,000 lectures on the Shroud. He's a mathematician. He doesn't have a theological ax to grind. He assigned this probability that when you look at the. All of the correspondence of how, how the man of the Shroud is crucified and you compare it to what we see in the Gospels, he gives it a probability of 1 in 200 billion that it is not Jesus.

[Josh Johnson]

Gracious, wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So I. This is on my YouTube channel. Like, I'm, you know, I'm from Kansas, you're from Kentucky. I'm from Kansas. I'm like, so, Professor Barbara, are you saying it's Jesus? I write about this in the book. And he almost gets frustrated. He's Italian. He's like, how can it not be?

[Carlos]

He actually does this.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

He said, the numbers.

[Carlos]

Joshua would like him a lot.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That's all I'm gonna say. The numbers force me to believe it's him. Of course it is. Almost. I was like, oh, I feel stupid for asking now, but thank you. He said, didn't you hear me 1 in 200 billion chance it's not.

[Carlos]

Is he a believer?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes, a devout believer.

[Carlos]

Because he's not. Because he's a rational man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Right, A rational man. So that's why I said at the beginning, I believe the Shroud is authentic. Authentically the Shroud of Jesus. Because I'm not irrational. I know a lot more about the Shroud than I do how my car will work to drive me home today. And I have no problem getting in the car and driving home. I have no clue how the air conditioning works, the transmission. I know some of our audience does, but I know a lot more about the Shroud.

[Josh Johnson]

All right, go back to this real quick now. Is there anything I should point out here? Can I ask a question?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Go right ahead.

[Josh Johnson]

All right, so, like, okay, but what about this? Like, what somebody. What I'm assuming people would say is, yeah, man, but like, somebody would just read. They would just read the Gospel accounts and they would know what to put into the shroud to match the. You know, so it's marksman's error. You see what I'm saying? They wouldn't know what to do. So the probability thing doesn't work.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Well, the cumulative data that you would have to add to that then is, okay, you would have to actually crucify someone. To do that, they would have to have type AB blood. They would have to have pollen from the first century. You'd have to have a side wound in the exact spot between rib 5 and 6. Another. Another thing that people would definitely get wrong if you're a hoaxer is you would have made Jesus much shorter because people often say, oh, people were only about 5 foot 1. The women were like 4ft 11. We actually have people crucified taller than Jesus in Jerusalem from the reign of Pontius Pilate, the tomb of Yehohanan. I think he was 6:11, something like that. 6:6 to 6:11. So the fact that Jesus is 5:10 to 5:11, according to this, you wouldn't have made that up. You wouldn't have known that. You would have actually guessed wrong, wrongly. So again, all of the cumulative data is easy to respond to that and just say, well, no, actually. And again, no one else crucified their victims this way. You would have probably been more influenced by the fact that there would be no crucifixion. There would be no crown of thorns. His legs would have been broken. It would not have lined out.

[Josh Johnson]

I'm just so. I'm. I'm a dumb Kentucky kid, but I'm even thinking here For a second. All right, so, like. Like, if the theory the skeptics have is this thing was created in, like,

[Jeremiah Johnston]

the 1300s, 1260-1390, based on carbon dating.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, I'll get to that in a second. I'll get to that. You're beating me to the punch here. So. And what you said is if somebody had done that, then they would have based all of this on medieval art. And to your point earlier, all medieval art, for instance, with the crown of thorns. Yes, all medieval art makes it like

[Jeremiah Johnston]

a wreath and through the palms. Yep.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, that's right.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

All of that.

[Josh Johnson]

And that's right. And. But on the shroud, it's a. It's a helmet. So there's things like that. It's like man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And he has a long beard. He has long hair. He has a beard that's been plucked in the front.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so. So don't you have something about the face? Yes.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay, so these are all what we call the icons. These are all. And that's just a fancy word for paintings of Jesus that are very old. The Christ Pantocrotter 1 in the top right corner is the most famous. That's at St. Catherine's Monastery that dates to the mid 6th century. So 550, something like that.

[Josh Johnson]

Top right.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Top right of that of what we're looking at. So all of these look the same to me. They all. And there's over 200, by the way. I. I couldn't fit them all in one slide, but, like, hit that. What is the source material that all these people are using for the shroud or for the. For the face of Jesus? Let's pull it up now, bro.

[Carlos]

H. How would they know they had

[Jeremiah Johnston]

to have source material before the 5th century, 6th century. And they all match this. And, dude, I've got some more show and tell. Now. This is super crazy what I have right now. Okay, this, this. You have to go over to the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul to see, but mine's better than the one they have there.

[Josh Johnson]

Come on, man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I've got a Roman solidus in my hand. It's solid gold. It's from the late seventh century.

[Josh Johnson]

What?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I want you to look at the fish place. That is.

[Josh Johnson]

Holy cow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

What does that look like?

[Josh Johnson]

It looks like.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Bring it back.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, looks just like that. So wait, is there a way for me to hold this up to the camera somehow?

[Carlos]

There you go. It looks like a zoom. It looks like an ipod.

[Josh Johnson]

Well, this.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Well, the good news is there's pictures of it in my books.

[Carlos]

Yeah, we'll show as well in post here. Yeah, yeah, we'll. We'll show this. Trinity will help us out here.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

This is a true story story. I had just acquired a bronze coin. This is a hilarious story. Do I have time to tell it? I just acquired a bronze coin of Herod the Great and all the coins in Jesus's aid. This is important for people that love the Bible. They're in the genitive. It's hiradu basile of Herod the Great. The coins likeness, it literally belonged to them. So there's a whole faith lesson in there. When Jesus said, whose image is this? Give to Caesar with Caesar, but give God your life. Because my image is on you. That's a different story. So I want to show this friend of mine, Bob Chitwood, shout out to Bob Chitwood with helps me all over the world. And he. And I said, meet me on Wednesday night at church at Prestonwood and I'm going to show you my coin. He's like, okay, well, I got something to show you too. I was like, all right. And so we meet in the pew. And he's like, during. During COVID I got into buying gold and he said, I have this coin and I want you to just look at it and tell me what you think. And he hands me, dude, the Justinian Roman solidus that has a strike on it. That it's almost mint condition. Which is why I said, it's better than the onethe Hagia Sophia.

[Josh Johnson]

Yes. He handed you that.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

He hands me this.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I said, bob, look at what you're looking at. He said, what? I said, what does that look like? He's. Well, that looks like the shroud. I've never seen that. I've never noticed that before. I said, dude, this is a Roman solidus of Justinian that Alan Wagner, a professor at Duke University, pointed out that there are 200 points of correspondence between this coin and the face of the man in the face shroud. What? Far beyond what's acceptable in a court of law.

[Josh Johnson]

So what's the theory on how that.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

The theory. Well, first off, that's in the 600s. It's the first coin with Jesus on it. There's a whole thing in there. He's battling the caliphate, which is Islam is killing all the Christians they can. And his last stand is, I'm going to put Jesus on the money because he's Christ, lord of all, and he puts himself on the back as a mark of humility. And. But Wagner gets this from Duke University. You can look this up. And he sees 200 points of correspondence between that face. So again, it all goes back to the same source material. And this all antedates that predates the medieval dating by 7, 800 years. How do you explain that?

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so that leads me to this. Objection. So I'm going to read it to you. So I guess it was in 1988, there was like a few labs that started doing carbon dating.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Totally corrupt. Can't wait to talk.

[Carlos]

Okay, I would have heard this one before.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah, I'm ready for it.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so in 88.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Hold my coffee.

[Carlos]

Okay, I got you. I got you.

[Josh Johnson]

Some labs start doing carbon dating. They're doing carbon dating on the thing and they date it to. I've got it right here. That's exactly it. To between 1260 and 1390 AD. Which coincides with the Shroud's appearance in France in the 14th century. What say you, Doc?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Utterly corrupt data based on. Not what I'm saying. The 2019 Journal of Archaeometry, published by the same Oxford University that says National. Now, you cannot use that carbon dating because based on the raw data, which the British museum suppressed for 27 years. My friend Tristan Casia Blanca just published a book on this. He did the equip. He's a Frenchman. He did the equivalent of a. And we just spoke at the International Shroud Conference together. He did the equivalent of what we call in America like a Freedom of Information Act. Took years. Got the raw data fined of what they actually tested on the shroud. And they tested the one corner that all the scientists from 1978 said, don't test this, don't test the corner. It's been patched. You're going to find cotton fibers like. Because even this Shroud. I don't know if you notice, we have gaff tape on the corners. It's already falling apart on the ends. And this is a replica. So obviously the Church is smart enough to know, hey, this thing's kind of fraying on the edge. So we're going to patch it with cotton. Cottons which anyone can see under a microscope. But the rest is fine linen. So they supposedly take the top left piece, the Reyes fragment, and they test it. Seven labs are supposed to test it. Only three do. Oxford, Zurich and Arizona. One guy is awarded a five million dollar endowed share. You can look this up for yourself after he writes it on the chalkboard and sits there like this. 1260 to 1390. The corrupt British Museum that I've been in a thousand times times, suppresses the raw data for 27 years. So according to my buddy Tristan, what they found and what the Journal of Archaeometry points out in 2019 is the sample that they tested is not homogeneous with the shroud itself. They may not have even tested the shroud. What, because it's a corrupted piece? Or if they did, it's one of those patched pieces. So if we were to line up, if we were to stack up all the evidence against the shroud, the only evidence that I ever hear is this carbon dating. And maybe I'll hear new stuff today with these questions, but you cannot use that. That is not acceptable anymore. You need to update your research.

[Carlos]

When did that change?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

2019, the Journal of Archaeometry. And then with this Freedom of Information act, where now we can actually see that the samples they used are not homogeneous with the shroud.

[Carlos]

And then there's new testing happening in 2024. 24.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Well, and then that's the other. I get into the five ways in my book that the Shroud has also been dated in the Institute of Crystallography. This has been crazy to learn all this, y'. All. Wide angle X ray scattering, waxes dating. Remember I said that we have lots of other shrouds from the land of Israel has compared the date of a shroud, without a doubt dated to the 80s, 70s, with the shroud of Turin. So we have a shroud from Masada and then we have the Shroud of Turin. They have both been getting old together at the same time. They can tell the degradation on the shroud that it's been getting old based on waxes dates dating for 2000 years.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

So it's been getting older for a lot longer than 700 years.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow. Okay, show me the. Do the face thing real quick.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Okay. This is a shout out to my friend Doug Powell, an awesome scholar and apologist. This is what he created in Mid Journey. Look at that.

[Josh Johnson]

So this is based on the Shroud and like Jesus may have looked like that.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Absolutely he did. He's. He's an olive skinned Jewish man, long beard, long hair. Don't read the Corinthians passage about short hair. Dang, you beat me to it.

[Josh Johnson]

That's probably going like, don't.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Don't read that at me. Don't isogee that at me. No, Jewish man had short hair and didn't have a little beard. And, and, and this is cool the way Doug did this.

[Carlos]

Want to ask about it, but go ahead.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

He inserted just two things into Mid journey, the image of the Shroud and Then the Christ pantocroter icon. Just those two things. And. And I give more of this on my Instagram, the whole story of it. And that's what becomes the COVID of my book.

[Josh Johnson]

Holy cow.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Because I think it's so striking to see that's likely what Jesus's resurrection face looked like.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so I am going to read the First Corinthians.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Please do.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so that was one of my questions.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Let's do heresy together out of context.

[Josh Johnson]

So two. Yeah, two biblical objections to this. Number one, Dr. Johnston, doesn't this violate the second commandment against having images hold

[Jeremiah Johnston]

my coffee again, Carl.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, that's number one. Number two, what about 1 Corinthians 11:14, where Paul says, does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, is ashamed to him? So, Dr. Johnston, obviously, Jesus wouldn't have had long hair and God wouldn't have preserved a quote unquote graven image. Right.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Thank you for these great questions. So I asked Barry Schwartz the same thing, and again, I want to appeal to him because he gave the TED Talk on the Shroud, and then he later published an awesome journal article. I was the editor of a journal called the City when I was a professor at Houston Baptist University, and I asked him to answer the five top objections. And I summarize that and give him all the credit in my book. And I said, isn't this a graven image? The second commandment, just for the benefit of our audience, says, you will have no other gods. You're not going to worship a tree God or anything you made. And, oh, Barry said, and this is a Jewish man. Barry said, oh, that's so easy to answer. The Shroud is not man made. So it's not a graven image. Image. It's the moment of resurrection. No, no, man made the shroud. So. And by the way, I've had the shroud, literally this replica, all over the world with me. I think we put 125,000 people through our exhibits last year. I've never seen one person worship it. I've never seen one person pray to it. Now, can I tell you this? I got on my knees in front of the actual shroud, and I didn't pray to the shroud or worship it, but I had a moment where I said, jesus, make me a more ardent defender of the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, please. I rededicate my life to you right now. So it's like taking people to Israel. So the Corinthians passage, if you've been To Corinth. They had short hair there. They looked like Romans. If you study Jesus in Judaica himself. No Jewish men, and I answer this extensively, they all would have had beards. They all would have had longer Ish hair. And there's. There's no correction there needed because again, Paul is writing to the church at Corinth. This is. I've been to Corinth. You guys probably have too many times. This is not a Jewish community. This is a Roman area. So very, very simply. And again, you know, Paul took the Nazarite vow. He shaved his head, he did some interesting things. But there is no evidence that any Jewish man in the 20s and 30s AD would have had no beard and short hair at all.

[Josh Johnson]

Interesting. To your point, what you said earlier. So we already mentioned that C.S. lewis strikingly that this really surprised me. This C.S. lewis had an image, appreciated it so much. That's right. And to your point, that is why. And he. So he wrote a letter to an Anglican nun about the Shroud. And he said, I'm going to read him. This was CS Lewis letter back to her. Thank you so much for the head of our Lord from the Shroud. It has grown upon me once wonderfully. I don't commit myself to the genuineness. Basically, he's going. I don't know. Back then. Totally understandable. He said one can never be quite certain, but the great value is to make one realize he was a man and once even a dead man. There is so much difference between a doctrine and a realization. And he had that photo framed so that he would remind himself this was not some abstract doctrine. Like a real guy died on a real cross for the real you. And if you really give him your life, he can really change it forever.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That's powerful.

[Josh Johnson]

That's it, man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, so. Okay, you got those. So those are the. You got those objections?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes. Those objections anymore.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, yeah, I got it. Let me do a couple others. All right. What about this? Dr. Johnson.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes. You can just call me JJ.

[Josh Johnson]

JJ. I'm trying to think of something Woody to say. JJ. But. But there is simply no historical evidence of the shroud before the mid 14th century.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

In.

[Josh Johnson]

In fact, Bishop Pierre something. I can't pronounce. A French name.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yep.

[Josh Johnson]

Who had jurisdiction of the church where the Shroud was located, told the Pope the Shroud was a forgery and said the previous bishop identified the artist.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I've responded to that completely in a Blaze article. We should put in the show notes. Yeah, do that down the rabbit hole. And I don't want to lose the audience. But it is not a forgery at all. And there are reasons he wrote that that I literally just blast out of the park. But can we bring up. We actually have a map of the provenance. This is the term of the Shroud. We know that Eusebius references the face cloth. The Shroud is. Yes.

[Carlos]

Explain who Eusebius is.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

The greatest church historical. Yeah. He was there at the Council of Nicaea. So if we play this, this is the route that we have historically of the Shroud. We know it's in the Edessa in 544.

[Josh Johnson]

How do we know that?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Based. Again, thank you to Eusebius, the early church historian and others who talk about the fact that there's this face image cloth at a des. And it actually gets lost. Yes, it gets lost and refound in Edessa. That's 544. It's interesting how races away from Islamic conquest in Asia Minor. It's in Constantinople. Shout out to the Greek Orthodox who never get credit. They probably protected the Shroud, the Eastern Church for a thousand years before the Catholic Church ever had it. This is why I always say the Shroud belongs to the unified Church. Doesn't belong to the Catholic Church, doesn't belong to the Eastern Orthodox. It belongs to the unified Church of the Lord. Jes. And then it goes to Athens. We know all this historically. It's cool though. You see Naples during World War II. Hitler was fascinated with the Shroud and thought it would give him power to win. So that's a whole story in and of itself. How literally? At the abbey in Naples, the monks there protected the Shroud from Nazi ss when they came to try to find

[Josh Johnson]

my kind of monks. Dude, I would have liked those guys.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

They had no idea it was in the altar that they were literally going around. They're like just keep praying and singing. And the Nazis left and they were looking for the Shrouds. That's the only time it's been out of Turin since 1578. Turin is in Italy, Northern Italy. And so again, this is the very clear provenance that it goes way before Chambery France. Leary. We actually have it far before that. But again, I always tell people this. It's only been known as the Shroud of Turin since the 1578, the 16th century. It was known by different names before that throughout history. Just like my beloved Kansas City chiefs were once known as the Dallas Texans. It had different names to it. And so this helped me understand it. I'm a visual learner and again, back to the pollen. You guys, the other 20 pollen spores that we have on the shroud are from all of these places.

[Josh Johnson]

Are you serious?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Fry took five years to prove that. To go all these places and match up the pollen?

[Josh Johnson]

No way. That's stupid.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I know.

[Josh Johnson]

Wow, that's incredible. So basically you're saying, hey, man, this is just a lie.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yeah.

[Josh Johnson]

It's simply a lie that there's no historical evidence of it for the 1400s.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Get infected with a little history and it's easily answered.

[Josh Johnson]

That's fascinating. All right, we already did the artistic and anatomically. Oh, by the way, I want to say this. We were talking about Constantinople. One of the things that's really interesting, and I heard this on one of the other podcasts you were on. One of the things that's really interesting is that I love about this is it's both a death and resurrection.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes.

[Josh Johnson]

Peace.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

That's right.

[Josh Johnson]

So which is interesting because major world religions, it's contra Islam. Obviously, Islam says that Christ was not crucified. So Islam's claim is that Jesus was a prophet, but he was not crucified. I think the Quran literally says they crucified him, not with an exclamation point. So they deny, obviously, the crucifixion. And then obviously Judaism denies the resurrection. What you got right here is essentially you would. You would have proof of both death

[Jeremiah Johnston]

and resurrection and burial, too. I would add that you have death, burial, and resurrection in one artifact. And nothing outside the Bible does that except the shroud.

[Carlos]

That addresses the atheist. There's an atheist claim there that the body could have been stone.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Right?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Nope, nope. Not with Jewish burial traditions. Not in non war time. Absolutely not.

[Josh Johnson]

So, all right, what about this doc, jj? What about this doc, jj? Okay, but jj, the shroud fits perfectly into a period when relics were widely produced and circulated. Why should I believe this is any more authentic than pieces of the quote, true cross or meant now, wait. Or many other holy objects. Now, first of all, me and Carlos were doing a little research before this, and we found some old Martin Luther quotes about relics that are too funny not to read.

[Carlos]

They're amazing.

[Josh Johnson]

So I'm going to read these and then you can respond to the objection. So, by the way, don't get offended, though. No, he's not going to get offended.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I'm not a cat.

[Carlos]

I'm kidding.

[Josh Johnson]

I'm kidding. This is team Protestant all the way right here. So, first of all, for anybody that doesn't know Martin Luther obviously kind of kicked off The Protestant Reformation, 1500s was ardently, passionately against relics. So I'm going to read some amazing Martin Luther quotes. What lies, by the way? The other thing I'll say is Martin Luther had a very spicy sense of humor.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Yes, he did.

[Josh Johnson]

Very.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And he had a brewery in his basement that his wife led for him. And he had a library in his bathroom. I've been in it. So the man in his bathroom, in his bathroom had a library at his toilet.

[Josh Johnson]

What's funny about that is apparently, apparently he had some form of. Of like ibs. Like

[Jeremiah Johnston]

he had a library built in his toilet.

[Josh Johnson]

Like, he's. There's a literal Martin Luther quote. I'll butcher it here. This, like I. I break wind in Wittenberg and they hear it in Rome. Like, that's a literal Martin Luther quote. So here's some Martin Luther quotes for you. What lies are there about relics? That's a real quote, by the way. Look that up. What lies are there about relics? One claims to have a feather from the wing of the angel Gabriel. And the bishop of Mains has a flame from Moses burning the bush. How does it happen? This is amazing. How does it happen that 18 apostles are buried in Germany when Christ only had 12? I'll give you another one. Here's another one. These are funny. If all the. So he's mocking the Catholic church is what he's doing. If all the pieces of the true cross were collected together, they would fill a whole ship. Yet the gospel testifies there was only one cross, one last one. There are enough nails from the holy cross. So, by the way, for listeners, if you didn't know this little church history, especially in the early medieval period, tons of Catholic churches would claim to have some relic that dated to the actual events. And so he's saying is they were just making up tons of them. So here's another one. There are enough nails from the holy cross in various parts of the world to shoe a whole team of horses.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Right?

[Josh Johnson]

So, jj, it seems like, man, this just arose right in that period when all these relics were happening. And, man, aren't we Protestants? We're against relics.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Well, we are, absolutely. There's 20,000 relics, and they have different degrees. Knowles and I were just talking, talking about this last week. And here's the interesting thing about the Shroud. It's not a relic. It's an artifact because it can be tested with the sciences. And there's one other artifact that the Catholic church has, the Sudarium of Oviedo, which we have an entire chapter that Doug Powell contributed to my book. That's the face cloth, the sudarium, that also has type AB blood on it. No image, but it matches blood type, which is fascinating. We can jump in down to that. But I want to answer this. Martin Luther is in a time where to be a priest. These men were utterly corrupt. Don't think like your modern pastor today. Good man living moral lives first. Timothy 3, Titus 1, commitments. No, these guys were some of the most corrupt people that you could meet. John Tetzel is popular at this time. Who said famously, every time a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from Purgatory springs. I've been to the home of John Tetzel. And so the relics. It's interesting. Frederick the Wise protects. I don't want to geek out on the Reformation, but Frederick the as the protector of Martin Luther and he's the one who actually has Luther abducted so he's not burned at the stake, and then protects him at the Wartburg castle where I've been. And it was interesting. By the end of Martin Luther's discipleship and Frederick the Wise's life, he had actually put away all the relics he owned because he was growing in his love for God's word. So just a little side off there. So I agree that I'm not here to defend Catholic relics of any kind, and especially how they were misused and abused to give people absolution and salvation and pay for forgiveness and pray for the dead and all anti biblical. But again, I've realized the Shroud isn't a relic. It's an artifact. It's been tested by the sciences.

[Josh Johnson]

And that's what you're saying is man. Honestly, it's just not true that the evidence points to it arising in the medieval period during this era of relics.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Exactly.

[Josh Johnson]

That's just not what the evidence says.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

And I'm not the only one. I mean, there is a growing number of biblical scholars and archaeologists that feel the same way that I do based on the evidence.

[Josh Johnson]

Let me ask you two quick final questions here. All right, so let's just say. Let's say someday it comes out that man actually it was a hoax. Right. Someday somebody finds an old journal from, you know, 1360, whatever it is, and some guy's like, oh man, I did it. Yeah. That kind of thing. Does that affect your faith in the resurrection at all?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Not one bit.

[Josh Johnson]

Why not?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Because. Because again, the evidence is so powerful that Jesus died and rose again. You cannot explain the suffering in the world without the resurrection of Jesus. Romans 8, 18, Jesus foretold it in Mark 8, 31, Mark 9, 31, Mark 10, 33 and 34. On the third day, Jesus messianizes Hosea 6:2. On the third day, he will raise us up. Jesus adumbrated resurrection. Mark 5, Luke 7, John 11, Jairus daughter, the widow of Nain's son Lazarus. He showed he had power over death. Death. Fourthly, all of the archaeological findings that we have shows that the gospel narratives smack of authenticity. Number five, the resurrection was not what his disciples expected. This is where a lot of people lose out. They don't realize this is probably why Judas fell out of the boat. 4Q285 the Dead Sea Scrolls community says that when the Messiah shows up, he's going to kill the Roman emperor the Kim, and he going to proclaim himself God, cleanse a corrupt priesthood, vanquish the temple. And that was the Messiah they were looking for. This is why Peter in Matthew 16:23 says, Jesus, you can't go to the cross. And he literally says, get behind me, Satan, I'm going to the cross. So his disciples didn't expect it. And then how do you explain the conversion of Saul of Tarsus? What we can say is that Jesus appeared to those who loved him. Jesus appeared to those who were indifferent to him, and he appeared to those who were hostile to him. None other than his own family. Mark three, his family thinks he's nuts. Mark six, he's basically called a bastard by his, you know, this, this, this son of iniquity, this illicit child. John 7:5. Not even his brothers believed on him. This is why we have the appearance to James, which gives me chills right now, even thinking about First Corinthians 15:7. And he appears to James. James is like a lot of our family and friends. They're the most skeptical of Jesus. And he was, he was humiliated by his brother. I mean, think about it. And yet James goes from skeptic to believer. I would have loved to be at that appearance. Tradition. By the way, I could see him appearing to James at the, at the, at the home workshop. You know, bro, check out my side. They got me good. Check out this dude. Here I am. And here's what we know about James. He becomes a pillar of the church. According to Galatians, Paul seeks out his wisdom. James, Peter, and John. He's the pastor of the world's first megachurch. So don't hate on mega churches. They, James probably probably had 20,000 in this congregation if you count up the Book of Acts. Conservatively, he dies according to Josephus in AD 62. This is Antiquities 20, believing his brother is the Messiah. So I have four sons, and you have to ask yourself this question critically. What would it take for you to believe your brother was the Messiah and to die believing that? My boys don't. I break up civil wars every day, okay? They don't think their brother is the son of God. And then I don't even have time to get to Saul. And then finally, finally, everywhere the Christian message goes, society is improved, humanity is rehumanized. This is a message, the gospel, that's unstoppable. So I haven't even mentioned the shroud. And I've just given you seven reasons that are my body of proof of why, without a doubt, I believe Jesus rose from the grave. And if it comes out the shroud, wasn't it, I'll say, okay, let's keep going.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, that's right. Wow, man. There's a bunch of dudes in particular, like, you know, we. We're hearing more and more about especially, like, long distance truckers and a bunch of guys who are like, man, you know, kind of trying to figure out the Jesus thing and, you know, maybe. I don't know. I don't know, man. What. What would you say to somebody who. They're hearing this, and even while we've been talking, they've been sitting in a trunk or working out on a treadmill and like, while you've been talking, there's been something rising in their heart, like, dude, I. I think it's time to bend the knee to y. What would you say that guy.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

I want you to pray the prayer that the sinner prayed that Jesus heard. Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. That's enough. You don't need the right words or formulaic. Jesus, I trust that your payment was enough for me on the cross and that you rose again. I believe that. So, Jesus, I trust in you to forgive me of my sins. That's all. You have to pray. You don't even need to pray. Just believe it and proclaim, Jesus is Lord. Romans 10:9, and you'll be forgiven. There's a second person I want to talk to this Easter weekend. Maybe. You're coming to Lake Point this weekend for the first time without someone you love. You've lost a loved one. You've lost maybe a child, maybe a husband, a wife, a best friend. The beauty of the Resurrection is we can talk about our loved ones in the present tense because of the glory of the resurrection. First Thessalonians 4 We grieve, but we don't grieve without hope. John 14:19, Jesus said, Because I live, you will live also. Two dozen times were given that promise. So therefore we can be strong, we can be vigilant, always abounding in the work of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:50. Because we know that everything we do for Jesus matters because of the resurrection.

[Josh Johnson]

Dr. Johnson, Jeremiah, would you please pray for the people who've been listening?

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Absolutely.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, man.

[Jeremiah Johnston]

Thank you, Jesus, for the power of the resurrection and Lord. Romans 8:11, your word says the same power that rose Jesus from the grave dwells in every one of us as believers. Lord, we don't know if it's 34,000 billion watts or what, but we know it's a power we can't quantify. It's a power that forgives our sin. It's a power that takes us out of addiction. It's the power that brings our marriages together and helps us be better parents. And so, Lord, we want to saturate ourselves in resurrection power. And so, Lord, the the whole purpose of this broadcast has not been to make us smarter. It's been to help us know you better, to have a face to face look at you. Jesus, we say with Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, we want to see you face to face. We say with David, your face. Lord, will I seek. We say with John in Revelation 22:40, Jesus, we want to see your face clearly. And this broadcast has given us a glimpse, Lord, a blink, a twinkling, and we can't wait to be with you face to face. And so, Jesus, thank you today for the powerful truth of your resurrection. And Lord, we pray that you bless all the services at all the campuses at Lake Point this weekend, that God your spirit would be here. Lord, I pray people wouldn't just invite people. I pray they would bring people and also those that aren't even here in the DFW area that they would watch online and get friends and family and have watch parties this Easter and say, hey, come listen to Pastor Josh message. Anoint the services, Lord, we pray in Jesus name. Amen.

[Josh Johnson]

Amen.

[Carlos]

Amen.

[Josh Johnson]

Jeremiah, thank you very much. Thank you.