The DEMONIC Double Standard Behind Jaden Ivey's NBA Controversy!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Live Free with Josh Howerton – "The DEMONIC Double Standard Behind Jaden Ivey's NBA Controversy!?"
Lakepointe Church
Released: April 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the recent controversy around NBA player Jaden Ivey, who was fired from the Chicago Bulls after refusing, on Christian grounds, to participate in Pride Month celebrations. The hosts—Pastor Josh Howerton, Carlos Rosso, and Paul Cunningham—use this situation to discuss broader cultural, spiritual, and biblical themes: the intersection of faith and public life, the double standard faced by Christians in society, and how the Bible both predicts and speaks to such struggles. The episode also offers a passionate, in-depth Bible study using the Resurrection accounts, Old Testament symbolism, and practical theology, while challenging both laypeople and pastors to take a stand for biblical truth in a post-Christian culture.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Jaden Ivey NBA Controversy and "The Demonic Double Standard"

• Context ([02:38], [66:03]): Jaden Ivey, a Bulls guard and outspoken Christian, was released from the team after expressing his refusal to participate in Pride Month events, labeling them 'unrighteousness' in accordance with his faith.
• Josh’s Assessment ([68:01]): Josh considers Ivey's response a basic biblical conviction rather than an act of bigotry, and points out the speed and severity (fired within 15 hours) compared to how the league handles allegations of violence or abuse by players.
• Double Standard in Culture ([71:41], [74:42]):
  • Josh: “Players can rob families, beat women... all them still got their jobs. But you say one thing that Christians have believed for 2,000 years… you're gone.”
  • He describes this as a “demonic double standard,” linking it to the broader pattern of secular intolerance toward orthodox Christian beliefs, especially regarding sexuality.
• Responsibility of Christian Leaders ([72:08]):
  • Josh appeals directly to pastors, warning against avoiding cultural issues: “You may not be very interested in the culture war. The culture war is interested in you.”

2. The Spiritual/Linguistic Nature of Contemporary Movements

• LGBTQ+ as a Religious Movement ([75:37]):
  • Josh: “LGBTQIA... It's a religion. It's a religion of demonic sexual perversion. Every letter… functions like a denomination.”
  • Draws parallels with ancient religions mixing sexual perversion with demon worship (e.g., Asherah, Baal).
  • Children and indoctrination as a hallmark: “Every religion has to get into children’s ministry. That’s why.”
• Modern Pharisees ([78:02]):
  • Josh compares secular progressives enforcing orthodoxies to the biblical Pharisees (“the modern-day Pharisees of our culture”).

3. Biblical Exegesis: Resurrection, Old Testament Types, and the Emmaus Road

Deep Dive: Old Testament Types Pointing to Jesus

• Garden of Gethsemane and Olive Press Imagery ([10:23]):
  • Jesus prayed three times in Gethsemane (meaning ‘oil press’). “He is crushed for our anointing, our healing, and our cleansing.” ([14:19])
• Acacia Wood and Crown of Thorns ([15:10]):
  • The same wood for the Ark of the Covenant possibly used for Jesus' crown.
• Game of Kings ([16:40]):
  • Roman soldiers’ mocking “game” at the site of Jesus’ scourging parallels the taunting of Christ.
• Golgotha—The Place of the Skull ([21:27]):
  • Visuals and archaeological notes about the crucifixion site’s appearance.
• Alexamenos Graffiti ([23:04]):
  • Second-century Roman graffiti mocking Christians, paralleling Paul’s “foolishness to the Gentiles” (1 Corinthians 1:23): “Anybody who worships Jesus Christ worships a dead jackass.”
• Abraham and Isaac ([47:16], [51:24]):
  • The binding of Isaac as a prototype of Christ’s crucifixion—“Take your son, your only son whom you love” to Moriah (possibly Golgotha), and the substitutionary ram.

Memorable Quote:
Josh ([14:19]):
“Jesus Christ goes into the Garden of Gethsemane. He’s crushed for our iniquities, prays three times in his crushing, and exactly what those olives, the oil were used for. Guess what Jesus does. He is used. He’s crushed for our anointing, our healing, and our cleansing. Ladies and gentlemen, the Garden of Gethsemane.”

Reading the Bible with a Christological Lens ([44:41], [62:09]):

• Use the Emmaus Road story as a hermeneutic key: “Every single thing that happened was pointing to Jesus and was about Jesus… It's like watching the Sixth Sense the second time.”
• Paul: “Once you start learning to read the Bible through what theologians call a Christological lens, that is when it detonates like a nuclear bomb in your soul.” ([53:25])

Four Helpful Bible Reading Questions ([60:06]):

1. What did the passage mean to its original audience?
2. What truths are true for all time?
3. What does it mean for me?
4. How does it point to the Author of time, Jesus Christ?

4. Handling Culture as a Christian: Practical Wisdom ([90:45], [95:46])

• When to Speak/Limits of Compromise:
  • Use shrewdness and wisdom (be “shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves”).
  • Don’t lead public interactions with what's most offensive; focus conversation on Jesus’ lordship.
  • But: “When someone is asking you to violate your convictions as a Christian, that’s when you say something.” ([99:08])
• Consistency & Hypocrisy ([95:06]):
  • Example: NBA does business with United Arab Emirates (illegal to practice homosexuality), but fires a player for a Christian stance in the U.S.
• Suffering and Conviction:
  • Daniel as a model: “I will not let you make me sin… That’s where my line is.” ([100:02])
  • Pastors must model courage; “the courage of your people is never going to rise above the courage of their pulpit.” ([72:08])

5. The Emmanuel Acho Response ([82:07]):

• He claims if Jaden Ivey were a star player, the controversy wouldn’t have mattered.
• Hosts rebut: The goal isn’t to be on the world’s “team” but to prioritize righteousness and Christ’s reward over popularity or status.
• Tackling the “Render unto Caesar” argument, Josh asserts that while Christians need tact, one’s ultimate allegiance is to God.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• "You may not be very interested in the culture war. The culture war is interested in you." – Josh ([00:00], [72:08])
• "It's a demonic double standard." – Josh ([71:41])
• "Every religion has to get into children’s ministry. That's why." – Josh ([76:24])
• "Your talent will make room for you… And your righteousness will make rewards for you. Whose team do you care the most about being a star on?" – Josh ([82:43])
• "Let the faith and courage of one guy spread. Good job, Jaden Ivey. You must obey God rather than men." – Josh ([102:44])
• "Once you start learning to read the Bible through what theologians call a Christological lens, that is when it detonates like a nuclear bomb in your soul." – Paul ([53:25])

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Key Timestamps & Segments

• [02:38] – Introduce Jaden Ivey NBA controversy
• [10:23 – 15:24] – Gethsemane as ‘oil press’, three prayers/pressings, typology to Jesus
• [21:27 – 23:04] – Golgotha and Alexamenos “donkey-headed Christ” graffiti
• [44:41] – How to read the Bible "Sixth Sense" analogy
• [51:24] – Abraham/Isaac as a Christ figure, specificity of Moriah/Golgotha
• [60:06] – Four questions for reading the Bible
• [66:03] – Deep breakdown of the Jaden Ivey firing and the cost of conviction
• [68:01] – [74:42] – “Demonic double standard”, “Culture war is spiritual war”, charge to pastors
• [75:37 – 78:47] – Parallels between biblical false religions and modern sexual movements
• [82:07 – 85:35] – Emmanuel Acho's critique and the hosts' rebuttal
• [90:45 – 95:46] – Christians in the workplace, when/how to stand up, Daniel as example
• [99:08] – Drawing the line: “I will not let you make me sin.”
• [102:35] – Final charge: emulate the courage of Jaden Ivey

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Tone and Style

• Bold, passionate, and direct
• Heavy on biblical exposition with engaging storytelling and humor
• Candid critique of church and culture, but also practical and pastoral
• Encouraging believers to be courageous, wise, and deeply rooted in Scripture

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For Listeners:

If you’re a believer navigating faith in a modern, often hostile, workplace or culture, you’ll find this episode deeply equipping—both intellectually and spiritually. You’ll come away with a richer understanding of how the Bible’s patterns point to Christ, and practical wisdom for standing firm, even when it costs.

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“Did not our hearts burn within us as He opened the Scriptures to us?” (Luke 24)

Transcript

[A]

You may not be very interested in the culture war. The culture war is interested in you.

[B]

Oftentimes we tend to think a lot about me. But then when you open up the scripture, ultimately you end up focusing less about you and more about Jesus.

[A]

The blood of Abel was crying out for a man's condemnation. And the blood of Jesus Christ, a descendant is crying out for our acquittal.

[B]

Well, hey, Lit Free nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. Texas. But the live free nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church Online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live free podcast. My name is Carlos Rosso. Let me open this fortune with Pastor Josh, who's got a fortune cookie and messing with the audio. We also got Paul Cunningham over here coming to you from Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas in. And that's great.

[A]

It's 8:30pm yes, it is. I just finished preaching. I need a forging.

[B]

Hey, bro. Paul, let's get some Red Bull for Pastor Josh.

[C]

Yeah, that is definitely not what he needs right now.

[A]

Well, let me read my fortune.

[C]

Please do.

[A]

What, bro?

[B]

That's a different team, Josh. That's a different team.

[A]

It says nurture your dreams.

[C]

That's not a fortune.

[B]

Sorry, what translation of the Bible is that?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

The mess. That's a joke. That's a joke. Hey, today we're going to be talking about reasons to actually not just kidding. Deep dive in the resurrection accounts in the Bible. We're going to be.

[A]

We're going to go Indiana Jones, bro.

[B]

Yeah, we're going to be dropping some mind blowing examples from the Old Testament of that points to Jesus, all the different hidden shadows and types.

[A]

You'll never read the Bible again. And Easter eggs, one might say.

[C]

Yeah. Ooh well played.

[A]

Okay, see what I did?

[C]

I just made that joke.

[B]

It's going to be so good that today I brought the hide button,

[C]

bro.

[B]

This will come in handy today. So I'm gonna put it right here. I'm telling you, it's gonna be a great episode.

[A]

Wait, and then we're obviously, we're gonna also talk about Bulls player Jaden Ivey get fired.

[B]

That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[A]

For saying that. How would you phrase it?

[B]

Actually, he said it. He said that.

[A]

He said that. Same set. Homosexual, basically was talking about the Bulls asking the players to support Pride Month. And him, as a Christian, going, I'm out.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And calling it unrighteousness. And he was fired the next day. So we're going to talk about the dynamics around that. And then, man, I hate to do this, but we're going to react to my boy Emanuel Acho that it was not awesome. So we'll get there.

[B]

Amen. Hey, Pastor Josh, you just preached your first Easter sermon. As you were about to take a bite of that. Hey, it's okay if you want to take a bite of that portion of cookie I got you.

[C]

While he's doing that, Carlos, I just want to say, great shirt. Really, really great shirt. You know, it's really, really good.

[A]

What are you talking about?

[C]

Just, you know, we kind of almost match. You know, we just.

[A]

Yeah, it's just one of those two dudes matching.

[B]

He was secretly hoping you came with one.

[C]

If he does the same thing, this is gonna be kind of awkward and funny.

[A]

But, hey, can I give an announcement to Live Free Nation?

[B]

Please do.

[A]

Then let's dive in. Well, first of all, shout out. I just got back from our grandpa's funeral, flew up New York, buried him on, you know, right outside the farm there. I got one of his International Harvester hats on from. From Grandpa. 96 years old, died on the same farm he was born on.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Refused to go to hospice care because he was like, I was born on this land. I'm gonna die on this land. They don't make him like that. Related to Ernest Hemingway. Grandpa Hemingway. And this is awesome, man. So repping the International Harvester hat for Grandpa.

[C]

That's amazing.

[A]

It's good, man.

[B]

That's amazing. Hey, we're meeting a lot of people in the lobby here at Lake Point, and just literally people from all over the place. And so if you are listening to this or watching on YouTube and you're part of the Live Free Nation, we would love to meet you. Come Hang out and if you visit us for the first time at any of our physical locations, we got a gift for you also. So I really want to show a photo this last weekend. The lady in the middle, her name is Nesh. She came to visit us this last weekend. She's California born and raised. She grew up in a family where her mother was Jehovah's Witness and her father is Kurdish and he was a survivor in Saddam Hussein's dictatorship. So she did not grow up Christian. She wrestled with family loss, panic attacks and high anxiety. Last year, September 2025, she starts listening to the live free podcast and decides to go to Barnes and Nobles to buy her first Bible. On that day, she gives her life to Jesus. She hasn't had a panic attack since then. She joins Lake Poor Trench online. She gets plugged in in her local church. She just got baptized last weekend with her best friend Jennifer, who's in the picture as well. And we are celebrating that today, man. There you go. That's amazing, man. We're celebrating with you, Nash. Happy for you and Jennifer as well. Also, if you want to purchase a live free hat right here we got a new hat for the ladies by the can go to LiveFree Shop or text the word HAT to 20411.

[A]

Boom boom.

[B]

And if for the people that are asking as well to find our daily Bible reading plan plus the weekly sermon plus an early release of the live free podcast plus the discipleship guide, you can download the Lake Point Church app and or text the word app to 20411 or go to Apple or Google Play Store. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you.

[A]

I will allow it.

[B]

Do you want a Red Bull? I'm kidding.

[A]

I don't want a Red Bull. Wait, before you go any farther.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[A]

So, and then we're going to start talking about the Bible. So I'm really serious about this. If godly people, if godly people don't, godless people will on on Christians and political and governmental engagement. So we're 100. I meant what I said. We are going to leverage Live Free Nation to keep an overtly like an actual biblical false prophet from winning a Texas midterm election in James Talarico. So here's what we have done. We have created a, a landing page. Basically here's the deal. It's somewhere around. It's an estimated 40 million evangelical Bible believing Christians don't vote and that's in presidential elections. It's probably three times that for midterm elections. So let me just. That's an estimated like 100 plus million Christians not voting in elections. Which, like I said, if godly people don't. Godless people. If godly people don't take the driver's seat, godless people do. So here's what we're going to do. We are going to leverage Live Free Nation to try to legitimately flip a Texas election. Because as of the most recent data, James Talarico, yes. All the lgbt, all the trans ideology, max boost, abortion, an actual biblically defined heretic and false teacher, all the things, socialism, light, all the stuff he's winning in the polls. So Live Free Nation, we're gonna change that. So here's what you can do. We built a website. You can simply text the word vote to the number 20411. And what you'll get there is most people just don't vote because they don't know when, where and how. So we literally built this. I am told it is one of, if not the first website of its kind because it's got a bunch of AI on the back end that has recently enabled this function. So literally, you or anybody that you know can simply go to this webpage, you text vote to 20411 and then all you gotta do there is enter your home address. That's all private. We don't see any of that data. Nothing stored. And it will spit out to you instantly when to vote, where to vote, and what is needed in wherever you live to be able to vote. That's awesome. So here's what we're gonna do. We're just gonna max boost this thing. We're gonna leverage Live Free Nation to get Christians to engage, to keep a, an actual heretic and false teacher from winning a Texas election. We'll just see. We can flip the whole election. It'll be fun.

[B]

Let's go, man. Salt of the world.

[A]

Salt of the world.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Salt of the earth.

[B]

Pastor Josh, what did you make to the sermon?

[A]

A lot. A lot, dude. All right, let me just.

[B]

By the way, great job.

[A]

Thank you, man. Thank you, man. Thank you. On Easter, you just want to run it up the middle. Like, you don't mess with that. You preach the cross and you preach the resurrection. So, dude, honestly, a lot. I'm going to try to do this fast because, dude, there is so much. Let's go a little Indiana Jones. So here's what I wish I had time to do in, in this, in a sermon like this. If we could all get in a bus and go over to Israel together. If you can actually see all the stuff.

[C]

Literally. Told you.

[B]

I told you two days ago. I was just waiting for it.

[C]

I was.

[A]

I've got.

[C]

I may or may not have an over under. And how many times you were going to do this? I was waiting for me.

[A]

Looked at Paul, he had this like,

[B]

you, bro, the tension in the air just like change in a second.

[A]

So let me show all things that Paul would have seen. We're going to do this really fast. So. And here's the big idea, dude. Once you see this, you just start realizing like, there's no chance this didn't happen. Yeah. Okay, so let's do this real fast. We're gonna do it in chronological order. First of all, throw that. Toss that tree up there. Trinity. So that's the garden of Gethsemane. There are olive trees grow to be. What are you laughing at?

[B]

Are you looking at. You can look at me too, because Paul feels like you're just looking at him. But go ahead.

[A]

Don't let me interrupt you. Olive trees grow very old. That is the oldest olive tree in the garden of Gethsemane. I don't know if it's the oldest one in the world. That olive tree is over 2000 years old. Let me put that in perspective. When Jesus is praying in the garden of Gethsemane, that exact tree was alive. I'm going to just pause and let that sink in. That tree was alive when Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane. Wow. All right, now go to this, go to that next picture with the dude there. Okay, that guy's name is Yuval. He's like the greatest. He's a messianic Jew. He's the best guide in the whole world. So here's what you're looking at here, dude. This will blow your mind. So that what you're looking at over on top of his hand. That is a 2000 plus year old olive press from. That's actually not in the garden of Gethsemane, but it's around there. It's an olive press. Now, dude, here's what a lot of people don't know the word. Gethsemane. Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus, remember, he prays, prays, remember. This is really important. We're gonna come back to this praise. How many times?

[C]

Three times.

[A]

Prays three times. And on the third time begins to sweat drops of blood, drops of blood, drops of. Okay, and he's obviously praying in the Garden of Gethsemane. Gethsemane literally means oil press. That's what the word gethsemane means. Now, dude, this is gonna blow your mind. Okay, so we're here with Yuval, messianic Jew, and he shows us his oil press. Now, if you can see that little. The little circular stone in there with a hole in the middle. First of all, whenever Jesus does the whole deal where he's like, anybody that causes one of these little ones to sin, it'd be better if they tied a millstone around their neck. That's literally the type of stone he's talking about. That's a millstone. So. And the reason he says that you could tie one around your neck is because they had that hole in it. So it's like envisioning, like, hey, you can make that a necklace, brother, and jump in the ocean and actually go. Better for you than if you cause little, little kids to sin. All right, so Yuval's here, and we just saw Gethsemane means oil press. Bookmark that in your head, shows us this oil press. What they would do is they put the olives in the big stone holding, and then they would put a big wooden pole through the middle of that sucker and then turn it so then it crushes them. Now, this is really important. They would crush the olives three times. And this is very clearly historically documented. And each pressing of the olive, the oil would have different levels of purity, and they would be used for different things. So, like, if you go to the store and you buy extra virgin. Virgin olive oil, what that literally means is it was a virgin. It was an unpressed olive, and this was the first pressing of the oil. Okay? So the virgin oil first pressing was used back then for anointing oil. That's a big deal. If you're anointing somebody, you do that.

[B]

All right?

[A]

Then they would run that sucker a second time. The second oil, it was not quite as pure. They would use that oil for, like, medicinal purposes, for healing and light. So, like, on a menorah, that second oil is the type of oil that would light a menorah.

[B]

And to clarify, a menorah is.

[A]

That's that seven pronged candlestick thing. Okay, thank you. Then they would press it a third time just to get the last drops out. And that third pressing of the oil, it's like what we call lye. That's. That's the third pressing. Okay? So it'd be used for, like, for cleansing. All right, now, bro, just stop thinking about this for a second. Jesus goes into the garden of Gethsemane, which means oil press. How many times does Jesus pray as to quote the scriptures, as the Son of man is about to be crushed, how many times does he pray? Three times. And we just heard that the first pressing was used for anointing oil. The second pressing was used for healing. The third pressing was used for cleansing.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And then Jesus Christ goes into the Garden of Gethsemane. He's crushed for our iniquities, praised three times in his crushing, and exactly what those olives, the oil were used for. Guess what Jesus does. He is used. He's crushed for our anointing, our healing, and our cleansing. Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, the Garden of Gethsemane. That's crazy, dude. The Bible is amazing. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. All right, so let's go to this next one, the tree. This is real quick. You saw on last week's pod by the way. That thing's blowing up. That's right, Zag.

[B]

Jj, shout out to Jeremiah.

[A]

By the way, he was on Sean Ryan, like, two days after ours. Ours was better.

[B]

I agree. I agree.

[A]

Just tease it so, you know, he showed the whole. The helmet of thorns. Okay. I took this. When? You'll see this someday, Paul. I took this right outside the Garden of Gethsemane. This is an acacia tree. So they're all over right. Right around there, right where Jesus was crucified. And, bro, if you look real close, Trinity, you have the ability to zoom in. Can you do that? Zoom in on those thorns? Like, if you can. I don't even know if you can. Zoom in, if you can on those thorns, like. Yeah, yeah. You see those Zoom in even farther, bro. They're like. Some of them are literally, like. I pulled a couple off. Are like 6 inches long. So most people think the crown of thorns was made from that guy right there, which is what Jeremiah showed us, you know, last week. Little side note that's interesting is God dictated in the Old Testament that the ark of the Covenant be made of acacia wood. Acacia wood. And by the way, let me just point this out. Everything that was contained in the Ark of the Covenant was a reminder of the disobedience of the people. There is a connection, a lot of Bible scholars think, between the crown of thorns being acacia wood and the ark of the Covenant being acacia wood. And obviously, this thing holding the things that reminded of the disobedience of the people, and that being the curse for the disobedience of the people. That's a fun little fact. Now let's do another one. Go to that little. This is the stuff, dude, I wish I could just show everybody. And you never. It doesn't make it into a sermon. Yeah, go to the next little thing. That's the game on the ground. Okay, dude, so if you go into, there's two places. One of them is called Antonio's Tower, and the other one is the remains of one of Herod's little palace outposts. And both of them, one of those two places is where Jesus was scourged. So you see both of them and bro, you literally, you're looking at 100%. One of those two places is where Jesus Christ himself had the flesh raked off his back. Now, bro, this is nuts. So this, you can barely see it. If you look real close, you see that little circle right there? You see a little circle and there's some etchings inside the circle. So what this is, they put a glass protective casing over this because remember, it's where Jesus was scourged. This was called. It was called the Game of Kings. Not to be confused with Game of Thrones. This is a game of kings. And what Roman soldiers did is they etched to this little thing in the ground. It was a game with dice. And they would play this little game and it was like a board game. Now remember that thing is on the ground where Jesus was scourged. Bookmark that in your head. That's gonna be important in a second. And what they would do is they played it with these puppets and they would. I don't understand how he explained it, but I didn't understand it. But somehow with these puppets, the outcome of what they did in this little board game, Game of Kings, when your little puppet lost, bro, they would put a crown on it, they would mock it, and they would execute it. Whoa. And that game is on the floor in the stone at the place in Jerusalem where Pilate sentenced Jesus. Essentially, what our God was saying is it is a very, considerably more than just likely that the same dudes that were playing this game, they see Jesus and they're like, huh, so this guy thinks he's a king. And they played the game on Jesus. Wow. So there you go. Wow. Now let's fast. I'm going chronologically and we'll wrap this up here in a second here. Go to the next one, that Pontius Pilate stone. So I'll do this real fast. For years, people like critical Bible, critical scholars, they, they were like, ah, the Pontius Pile thing was a made up figure just to plug A hole in a narrative. And they needed somebody. Well, sure enough, this is in Cesare by the sea. Cool spot. They found this guy in 1961. It's called the Pontius Pilot stone. And it shut all those guys up real fast because it literally says that's the stone. It literally says Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea, like literally exactly what the Gospels say.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So until 1961, people were like, ah, they probably made up Pilate to move forward the narrative. And there it is. Okay, now let's go to Golgotha. Now we're going to come back to this in a second. So this is Golgotha. This is the likely spot of Golgotha. And I'm going to show you here in a second. Obviously, Golgotha is where Jesus crucified. Golgotha means place of the skull. Place of skull. Now you're looking at that, you may be going, huh, I wonder why they think that's Golgotha. Let me point out two things. So if you look real, real, real close at that little retaining wall above it. So this. So I don't have time nor expertise to explain this Right now. The area around Jerusalem, in and around Jerusalem, there are certain spots that are controlled by Muslims, certain spots that are controlled by Jews. This spot is controlled by Muslims. If you were to go there, it's like the whole area, if you look, if you're outside the field of. The vision of this picture down is just, honestly, it's just a big, it's a, it's a bus station. It kind of. You're kind of like, bro, this feels real irreverent. I don't know. So this is where it is now, that retaining wall up there, if you look real close, again, it's Muslim controlled. You can see that little writing up there, this kind of, this kind of thing that ticks you off and then makes you pray. So go to the next picture where I zoom in on it. Trinity. So that's the Arabic. And what the Muslims have done is right above the place of the skull where Jesus probably crucified. In Arabic, they have written, allah is God, Muhammad is his Prophet, Allah has no son. It's essentially a way to taunt Christians. That's what that is. That's a little fun fact. Now you may be wondering, go back one picture. Trinity. You may be wondering, well, I wonder why they think that's Golgotha. One, we know that Jesus was taken outside the city walls. The Gospels tell us Jesus was taken outside the outside the city walls to be crucified. This fits. It's within walking distance. You can see right to the Temple Mount, all that stuff. And it's one of the only places that fits that. But here's the big reason is until 1901, this is what that spot looked like. Go to that next picture. That's it. Now zoom in for me. Can you zoom in on that skeletor looking part? Hang on. Yeah, zoom in. You got it. Zoom in. Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. You see it? Okay, you see those two creepy looking eyes?

[C]

Wow.

[A]

So, dude, look at it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You see the two eyes and then look right below it and there's a little outcropping that it for real looks like a dagum nose. It looks like a forehead. Look at that. It looks like a crinkled forehead above those two little eye spots.

[B]

Skull.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, dude, it looks just like a skull.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Wow. So if I'm understanding this correctly, until basically that there was some kind of like earthquake or something in 1901 that collapsed part of it. So then. But from what I understand, until 1901, everybody was like, that's a spot, man.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And everybody knows that's the spot.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

So. So first of all, just like pause for a second and drink that in. You're almost certainly right there looking at the spot where the son of God choked to death on his own blood. For you. That right there. All right, just let that sink in. Now I'm going to go to last one last thing. This was just discovered a few years ago. This is the. You know what this is, Paul? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Chip Galtin knows.

[B]

He does, Paul.

[A]

So this is, this is in Rome. It is, from what I understand, the earliest case of quote unquote Christian graffiti ever discovered. But what's interesting is it's mocking graffiti.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So the title of it is Alexamenos worships his God. Well, actually, I'm skipping ahead. So if you look real close on the left, that's the graffiti. The sketching of the, of the graffiti on the right, that's like what it, what it would have looked like just to make it more clear. And it's, it's a, you know, it's a painting of a little Roman dude in front of a guy being crucified with an, with a donkey's head on. This dates to, from what I understand, the 2nd century. So the 1002 AD and look at that, those letters right below it. What it says is Alexamenos worships his God and Essentially what's happening is there was apparently a Christian young man in early Rome named Alexamenos, and he worshiped Jesus Christ. And every Roman person was like, bro, no God would ever die. What kind of God would die for his people that way too?

[B]

In such a crucifixion, humiliating way.

[A]

And so they literally drew to mock him, Jesus with a. And I'm going to use strong language on purpose, Jesus with the head of a jackass, as if to say, anybody who worships Jesus Christ worships a dead jackass. That's what they were doing. Now, with that in front of your eyes, I would just like to remind us what 1 Corinthians 1:23 says. But we preach Christ crucified a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. I'm all in, man. Amen.

[B]

Let's go, man. Let's go.

[A]

Now let me do one last one. And then, Paul, I want you to comment on that weird passage in Matthew where Matthew is the only gospel that says when Jesus died, a whole bunch of people were raised from the dead and they walked around. It was like a zombie apocalypse. And then I want to. I want you real quick to answer whether or not Jesus descended into hell like the Apostles Creed said, that says that he does. Let me just do one last. This was one that dude. I had to cut this from the sermon like one hour before preaching it. And it really ticked me off. I just didn't have time to get it in. All right, so the Gospel of Luke, whenever Jesus is carrying his cross to Golgotha and he stumbles and they pull Simon. And so the Luke is the only gospel that records. It says Simon the Cyrenian, it's the only one. And you read it and you're like, well, huh, I wonder why they specifically say he was from Cyrene. It's like nothing else ever comes of that. Why'd they say that Mark is the only gospel that records the names of the dudes two kids, Rufus and Alexander. Now here's the question. Why is Luke record, hey, not just Simon, the one from Cyrene? And why does Mark go, oh, not just Simon, the Simon whose kids were Mark and Rufus? Well, here's the deal, man. What the New Testament's doing, it's an ancient footnote. So what church history records is that that guy Simon the Cyrenian eventually became a Christian, became very well known in the ancient church. So when these dudes are writing all the gospels, they're writing with people, they're trying to Convince people. And they don't, you know, there's not like, I don't know, 23andMe. There's not like, go look them up on Facebook.

[B]

No, Facebook has gone with my.

[A]

Yeah, so they, what they did is they're literally putting a footnote. It's like super meta into the gospels where anybody that was reading would have gone. Now wait a second. Simon from Cyrene, the one whose kids are Rufus and Alexander, I know that guy. And they all would have been going, well, I'll just go ask him if this happened. But dude, here's the awesome part. So if you go to Romans 16:13. So at the end of all the epistles where Paul does his little deal, where he does the whole farewell speeches and he's saying Goodbye to like 57 different people in every epistle, by the way, those little names matter. And if you study those names, it gets real interesting real fast. This is one of them. So in Romans 16:13, it says, Greet Rufus. It's that guy. It's that guy's kid. Greet Rufus and his mother, who has been a mother to me also. And it says that they were chosen in the Lord. And he says goodbye to 40. I think it's like 45 different people in Romans. Rufus is the only one that he says, that guy chosen in the Lord. And dude, it seems like what Paul is doing is he's going, when Jesus was carrying his cross and he stumbles, he picks Simon and is like, I want that guy. And Jesus in his sovereign foreknowledge knew not only am I going to save that guy, I'm going to save his son Rufus too. And Paul is in Romans 16 going, I know exactly what Jesus did. Tell Rufus. I said, hey, wow,

[B]

awesome.

[A]

The Bible's amazing.

[B]

My goodness.

[C]

It's also a good, it's just a good reminder that the Gospels are not myths. A lot of times people say, oh, these are just myths. That if you actually go and read ancient myths, they don't read this way. They don't put random dudes and kids names in there that actually a lot of scholarship's been done in the last 20 or 30 years say, no, no, this is example of eyewitness testimony that they include little names like this. Hey, if you don't believe, go and ask them. They will attest to this kind of thing. So it's just a reminder that these were real people in real places that saw real things happen. So if we get to just some proofs of the resurrection, I wasn't going to mention that. But that is actually a perfect example to say, hey, this is eyewitness testimony of something that either did happen or it did not happen.

[A]

That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[C]

It's good stuff.

[B]

Let's go to. One of the questions was.

[A]

Yeah, let me. So, Paul, you got to rapid fire these because we got to Jade and Ivy.

[C]

One other thing you left out, though.

[A]

Oh, do it. What did I miss?

[C]

Okay, so you started your seminar with a great illustration of big reversals that happened.

[A]

Of course I did. Okay.

[C]

But you left out, like, the biggest one in NCAA history, you jerk. That happened over 30 years.

[A]

Listen, you freaking play the Christian Leitner shot, I'm going to be ticked at you. Are you going to do it?

[C]

I'm not going to do it. I literally told the team I thought about having them ready to Compton, but I love my job and I love you, and that's just wrong. I'm over there. As a Duke fan, you're saying this. And all my family, they had to watch me watch that game. I'm like, oh, it's painful right now to even think about it. But I thought about doing it, But I like my job and I love you, and I just wanted to at least mention that you leave out the greatest reversal in NCAA history.

[A]

But, yeah.

[C]

So great detail from Matthew.

[A]

Here's what we're going to do. Rapid fire are these two questions that a lot of people have. They're weird verses that a lot of people have about the crucifixion, resurrection accounts. Number one, Matthew is the only gospel that records when Jesus was crucified. Right. It's at the crucifixion when he gives

[C]

up his crucifixion is literally when the curtain is.

[A]

When the curtain's torn and all the

[C]

rocks are splitting apart.

[A]

Yeah. Then it says that the bodies. Do you have the verse in front of you? Yeah, read it.

[C]

The tombs were also opened and many of the bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the tomb. Is this a key detail that a lot of people miss? After his resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

[A]

What the heck got. Matthew's the only gospel that records this. What the heck is happening? You got any thoughts on why Matthew's the only gospel records it?

[C]

I'd say. I'd say two or three reasons. Number one, one is just the idea of. They attest to the reality of what happened. It's like saying, oh, it's one thing to say that, oh, maybe they just hid Jesus's body. But if you have a bunch of people that are rising from the dead that are all of a sudden going in and testifying that they're alive, that's really tough to explain. You know, at that point. A second thing is, I think it's actually a coming attraction in a sense, a little bit of a tease or trailer, because the idea is that when Jesus rises from the grave, the new creation begins. It's not fulfilled yet. This is the idea of the already not yet that we talked about before, but that if he ushers in the creation and the new age, where he is going to recreate all things and give life to all things. And so it's almost like, hey, this is what I'm going to do for everybody. The difference would be all the people that were raised, died again in the same way that Lazarus was raised to life, and he also died again. But when we're raised to life, we will never die again. We will live forever with him. So I said that's a big thing. But I think it's an interesting little detail that it says that the tombs were opened but that they did not come out until after Jesus had come out. So it's almost like we're like, no, no, we got make the main thing, the main thing. He's the guy who's making all this possible. We're not coming out until he's come out first.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah.

[B]

If somebody, Paul, that's maybe a little, just a little bit more of a skeptic is asking me, wait, something so supernatural, why is there, what is. Why is it on? Why is it only in one gospel? Oh, why don't you find it in the other gospels?

[C]

Oh, yeah, I think each of these, any of the gospels, you'll find little details that the other doesn't put in. Sometimes it's set for emphasis, sometimes it's just for, hey, they're telling it from a unique angle. Just because it's not in all of them doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It just means they're just wanting to include a detail potentially with, with, with the Jewish people. They were really had this idea that there would only be one resurrection of everybody at the end of the age.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

The huge change that's introduced is that Jesus inaugurates this new age, but he rises. And so it potentially could be proof to Jews to say, hey, this was legit, because only did he rise, his resurrection affects other people's resurrections as well.

[B]

Question number two.

[A]

Question number two. Okay, so the Apostles Creed. Yeah. Says that he was crucified on the third day. He descended into hell. That's literally what the Apostles Creed, he descended into hell. So, Paul Cunningham, after between Jesus death and resurrection, did he descend into hell? If so, what did he do? If not, why does the Apostles Creed say that?

[C]

Exactly. So we have to say Jesus died in his human nature. He died. Now, in his divine nature, he did not. Because God cannot die. But Jesus in his human nature died. He experienced death. The question to your point is, so where did his solar spirit go to? So two broad views on this question. One is that the idea of that phrase descended into hell is more of a description of what happened on the cross. That on the cross he experienced hell, but not in hell, he experienced it on the cross.

[A]

The wrath of God poured out.

[C]

The wrath of God poured out on the cross. A second view, and by the way I'm more of a hybrid of these two, is that he did receive that wrath from the cross, but then he descended into hell. But here's the key thing, not to receive more punishment. Mel Gibson's making Passion of Christ Part two, the resurrection. And it's going to be the resurrection, but it's really about the in between is what happened in between. And if he depicts Jesus being suffering in hell, he and I are going to have some words.

[A]

That's what he's making the movie about. It's about the in between.

[C]

It's the in between. At least that's supposedly like it's going to be the huge influence. Because it's like resurrection wouldn't take a long movie. You know, it's kind of thing. It's like he's got to fill with some time. So apparently it's going to be what happened in the in between.

[A]

What's the official Catholic stance on that?

[C]

The harring of hell. Basically he goes into Hades, but to proclaim the gospel. Not to proclaim the gospel in the sense of to get people a second chance to repent, but to proclaim it over demons, his authority, but then potentially over Old Testament saints. To give them a chance. Not to give him a chance, but basically he's rescuing them out of Hades kind of a thing.

[A]

Well, Gibson is like a Catholic Catholic. He's like a pre Vatican II Catholic. Yeah, I bet he's gonna go with whatever the Catholic doctrine is because historically

[C]

it's not been that he was punished. Because remember when Jesus was on the cross before he died, he said it is finished. We shouldn't think that he then closed his eyes and opened him in hell and said, oh, nevermind, I've got more suffering to do. No, no, the idea is he would have gone to hell but to proclaim his victory over demons. But then also potentially, yes, to proclaim the gospel, but to people who are already believers from the Old Testament. I'm a person that's more of a hybrid. I would say he endured the full P of hell on the cross, but I am a person who say he descended into hell but to proclaim his victory over demons.

[A]

However, we got verses for that.

[C]

Yeah, that's the first Peter that we actually went into a few weeks ago. That we actually went into a few weeks ago. The idea of he went in there to proclaim victory over the evil spirits, the demons. But then we have to also remember it's not that he then stayed there for all those days because what did he also tell to the thief on the cross today you will be with me in paradise kind of thing. And so I'm more of a hybrid between those. And so those are the two broad views then. Okay, yeah, that's great. Lots of things we could double click on in that one. I know that we would want to follow up on, but. Yeah, what about you? Where are you at, though, on that? Pastor Josh?

[A]

I have no idea. There's a few things, man, where I'm like, I'm totally comfortable going. I don't know, man.

[B]

Yeah, so in just a second, we're about to talk about how literally every single page of the Bible points to Jesus. But before Pastor Josh, I have a question. Do you know the secret identity of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus?

[A]

Bro, I got no idea. And I'm really fascinated to see what

[B]

you're going to say. So this is honestly, like, this is amazing because I thought this was the coolest thing this week. So Luke 24, obviously the sermon, for those of you that have not checked it out, you got to go back and listen to was the first section of Luke 24. Right. So when the, the Spice Girls, they go to the tomb.

[C]

That was great, by the way.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

That was great, by the way. So right after that, there's a little bit of, There's a little section, verse 13, of two disciples that go, they're on a. They're on a. On a road called Emmaus. And Jesus shows up and he basically does a little Bible study. They initially did not recognize him, and then after, eventually their eyes are open. And so I'm about to share with you the secret identity of These two disciples. This is really interesting. So the Bible does not give us the name of both of the disciples, but it does mention one of them, and his name was Cleopas. The other one is not named. And so honestly, I always thought it was two men, two dudes kind of walking and, you know, two friends. Maybe they're leaving Jerusalem. They're, you know. And then Jesus shows up. According to church tradition and early historians, Cleopas was the brother of Joseph, who was Jesus's earthly father, which would have made him Jesus's uncle.

[A]

Now hold on.

[B]

John, chapter 19, verse 25, mentions a Mary, the wife of Clopas. Now, Cleopas and Cleopas, historians believe they're the same name, different spelling. And so many scholars believe that the unnamed second disciple in this story of Emmaus is Clappas wife. The end of Jesus. So it is possible that the two disciples were Jesus's aunt and uncle, which Jesus's aunt and uncle. Which means this is a family Bible study with the risen Lord Jesus. But wait, there's more. If that's true, what happens after? Jesus is about to leave them. But then basically they say, hey, no, don't go. Stay with us. And Jesus does, and they have a meal together. So if that's true, and then you zoom out of scripture, this is what you see. In Genesis 3, Adam and Eve, a married couple, they eat, their eyes are opened and they experience shame. In Luke 24, Cleopas and his wife, a married couple, they eat, their eyes are opened and experience revelation. Hold on, there's more. In Genesis 3, Adam and Eve, they hide from God in the cool of the day. That's evening. In Luke 24, Cleopas and his wife do the opposite. They say, stay with us, for it is toward evening. In Genesis 3, Adam and Eve misunderstand God's word. They say, did God really say. In Luke 24:4, Jesus helps Cleopas and his wife understand God's word correctly. This is what God really says. It's about me. This is what Jesus says. We're about to go there in a second. In Genesis 3, God walks with God. God walks in the garden for confrontation of sin. In Luke 24, Jesus walks in Emmaus for restoration from sin. In Genesis 3, Adam and Eve, they try to hide themselves from God. In Luke 24, Jesus reveals Himself to them as God. In Genesis 3, Adam and Eve are banished from Eden, separated from God. In Luke 24, after encountering Jesus, Cleopas and his wife, they go back to Jerusalem to be on mission. The first Meal in Genesis brought the fall, the first meal after the resurrection, a new Genesis brought redemption.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Come on,

[A]

bro. That's. That's amazing. That's amazing.

[B]

So there you go. There you go. It could have been. All right, there you go.

[A]

So let's do this real quick, and then let's talk Jaden Ivy getting fired from the bulls for being a sane person. So let's. So let's do this real quick. The passage in Luke 24, the Emmaus Road, deal it honestly. So for our listeners, honestly, of everything we say on this podcast, this, what we're about to talk about long term will probably be the most important thing for you as a Bible reader. So what Jesus does in Luke 24 is he rolls up on them and on Emmaus Road, they don't recognize him, which is. It's kind of interesting. There's different theories on why glorified body. Maybe they were overcome with grief. There's a lot of different. Different theories on that, but they don't recognize him. So then they essentially go, oh, didn't share what happened, you know, with this Jesus fella. And he, you know, he kind of. He kind of rope a. Dopes him a little bit. Ah, tell me about it.

[B]

He says, you're the only one who hasn't heard.

[A]

You're the only one who hasn't heard.

[B]

He's the only one who knows.

[A]

So then, dude, what Luke 24 says is he keeps walking with him. And he. It says, beginning with the law and the prophets. He explained to them all the things in the law and the prophets concerning himself. What Jes. Essentially. So here's both. Actually, this is not a theory, this is a fact. If you read the rest of the New Testament, one of the things that is striking is the entire rest of the New Testament is showing how everything in the Old Testament was about Jesus and you didn't know it. Basically, bro, the entire New Testament is the extrapolation of whatever Jesus told them in Luke 24 on the Emmaus Road. That's the rest of the New Testament. So here's the big idea for Christian Bible readers. What a lot of Christians do is read their Bible and they just think, oh, man, what I need to do is just read it chronologically and the chronological reading. And by the way, I love chronological reading. Shout out Terry Lee Cobble, we love you and all the things. But they're just like, oh, you interpret it chronologically, you know, read, you know, Genesis and then you get to, you know, the Old Testament and then Jesus and then Revelation and great. That's. You know, you get it. No, no, no. That is not how you read your Bible. Remember, Jesus said in Luke 24, everything that happened before was about him. That's what Luke 24 says. Okay, so here's the analogy. You guys remember the first time you watched Sixth Sense?

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

If you've never seen the Sixth Sense, I'm about to spoil the ending. But that's on you. You've had 25 years to watch it.

[B]

Wait, don't spoil it. I haven't seen it.

[A]

I am going to spoil it. So you see. You see the Sixth Sense, bro, and it's like, it's the only movie I've ever watched. Twice. Back to back. Immediately. Yeah, because you see the whole thing.

[B]

You haven't seen Inception or, you know,

[A]

I'm not watching them twice. Back to back. Back.

[C]

Keep cooking.

[B]

That's a pretty good movie, too, you know, if you haven't seen it.

[A]

So you see Sixth Sense, you watch the whole movie. Then you get to the. You get to the. What's the famous line? What's the famous line?

[C]

I see.

[A]

I see dead people. But then you realize there's that moment where you realize, oh, he was. He was dead.

[C]

The whole.

[A]

And then. Then you go back and you immediately rewatch the movie, and now you're interpreting the entire movie through the lens of what was revealed at the end. And the whole. The whole movie takes on a completely different light. That's how you're supposed to read your Bible. So the whole Testament happens. Then Jesus shows up and he does the life, death, resurrection. And then Jesus goes, oh, by the way, all that stuff that's been written for the last 4,000 years, all that was about me. And then what a Christian Bible reader does, they go, oh, dang, I need to go back. And you start realizing, like, every single thing that happened was pointing to Jesus and was about Jesus. It's kind of. Honestly, it's kind of like a magic eye eye. You remember those when you were a kid? Yeah, they have magic eyes in El Salvador.

[B]

Me. And I've seen. I know what you're talking about.

[A]

How do you say magic eye ends

[B]

in El Salvadorian bola negra? Maybe I could mean it.

[A]

How?

[B]

I mean, it's a. It's a black ball, right? It's a black ball, right? No, what are you talking about? Magic Guy. Wait. Oh, no. Oh, we don't do sorcery in El Salvo. Oh, no, we don't know what you're talking about.

[A]

Magic Guy. Magic Guy. What are you talking about? You said something negra, and I was like, this is lost in translation.

[B]

Wait, magic. What are you talking about?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

No, yeah, I see what you're talking about. I was thinking about something completely different. I thought Magic 8 Ball, I thought

[C]

it's the art that if you, like, look at it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do, we do.

[A]

Then you see it different.

[B]

Hey, Josh, that reached the. The, you know, the far corners of El Salvador.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Are you thinking of the Magic 8 Ball?

[B]

I was, I was.

[A]

Which is understandable.

[B]

It's okay.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's kind of like that where once you see it, you can't unsee it.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So we could literally. It would take years.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Multiple podcasts for us to show how everything in the Old Testament is like a mind blowing Sixth Sense moment. This. Oh, that was about Jesus. You guys just want to round robin some of the best ones. And then what we're going to do for listeners, once you hear how we do this, which, by the way, is the pattern of the New Testament, this is how you need to start reading your Old Testament at. Okay, so you get. You. You just want to round robbing them. How do you want to do this?

[C]

Why don't you go first?

[B]

Please lead us.

[A]

Yeah, let me pick. Let me pick one.

[C]

This feels like a fantasy draft.

[A]

Okay, I'm going. Go. I'll do these. We're going to rapid fire. All right, so first of all, you obviously have in Genesis 1, 2, 2 and 3, Adam, Adam and Eve. Sin. They hide in their shame. Theologians call. It's Genesis, chapter three. God starts chasing them when they're hiding in their shame. Theologians call it the Proto Evangelion, which in Latin means first telling of the Gospel. And remember what God does, He walks up to him, he finds an innocent animal, slays the innocent animal, uses the skins from the slain innocent animal to cover their sin and their shame. Sound familiar, my friend? All right, now think about that again. Once you go back and read the Old Testament through the lens of Jesus, you're like, what? All right, so that's one. I'll do another one. Also in Genesis 3, God, when he's pronouncing the curses on Adam and Eve, he tells Adam and Eve, he's like. He looks at Eve, he's like, hey, so here's the deal. One day, one of your offspring and offspring is singular. One of your offspring is going to come, and the serpent is going to strike at his heel, but he's going to Crush their head. So you're going to have an offspring that becomes a serpent crusher. And then Jesus comes and Jesus is a offspring of Eve. B, the serpent strikes at his heel. That's he obviously in the crucifixion. And C, the Bible says that he triumphed over the demons, Satan and the demons, putting them to open shame. He crushes the serpent. Okay, so there you go. Points to Jesus. I'm gonna do one more. You got one?

[C]

I was gonna say Hebrews 2:14, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death. Romans 15:20. The God of will soon crush Satan. Where? Under your feet.

[A]

Okay, actually, let me do two other quick ones. Two other quick ones. I'll do another one. There's a bunch in Genesis. Oh, yeah. So after Abel, Cain kills Abel. And there's that verse. Hebrews does this super inception meta thing with this verse. So Genesis says God comes up to Cain that just killed Abel, and he's like, where's your brother? And he's like, mama, brother's cat keeper. I said that to my mom one time when I was a kid. She was like, hey, are you supposed to be looking after your brother? I was like, mom, am I my brother's keeper? She's like, you know who said that Cain killed his. All right, so anyway, so then you remember what God says to. To Cain? He's like, the blood of your brother is crying out for your condemnation. And the book of Hebrews says that the blood of Jesus, who is the second Adam innocently slain, it says that his blood cries out from the ground and speaks a better word. So. Whereas, bro, so. So the blood of Abel was crying out for a man's condemnation and the blood of Jesus Christ, a descendant of Adam came. Abel, a descendant, is crying out for our acquittal and forgiveness. Okay, again, you read everything through Jesus and it's like, my mind's blown. Let me do. Let me do one last one, then I'll give you all a turn and then we'll. We'll just rapid fire around robbing this thing and then we'll talk Jaden Ivy and shut her down. So here's one of my favorites. So Genesis 22, you got Abraham and Isaac and we all know the. The story. Take, you know, take your. Actually, I'm. Read the. Read the verse. So here's what God says. Listen really close to the verse. There's something in this verse people don't notice, and it's a big deal. Take your. God comes to Abraham and he's like, hey, take your son, your only son whom you love. Hey, hey, just take. Hey, Abraham, why don't you take your only begotten son whom you love? Well, this is starting to sound a little familiar, Isaac. Now, this is important. Here's what people miss. He didn't just say, and walk up the closest mountain you can find, mind, he says, and go to the region of Moriah. Now, I studied this years ago, and if I remember right, Moriah was like 80 miles from where he was. So Abraham would have been going, well, dad gone. There's mountains all over the place. Why can't I just walk up one of these? God's like, no, no, no. I want you to go to the region of Moriah, sacrifice him there as a burnt offering, and there's a specific mountain on a mountain that I will show you. So think about it. You're Abraham. You're walking around, you got your kid on your back. He's your son, your only son whom you love. You're walking 80 miles, and you're like, why the heck am I walking past all these mountains to this region? And you get there, and then somehow, that we don't know, God shows him one specific mountain. Side note, for all the listeners, you have already seen a picture of the mountain that God showed him in this podcast. He shows him one specific mountain. He's like, I want you to walk up that specific mountain, and I want you to sacrifice your son, your only son, whom you love, love up there. Now, remember, Isaac, he puts. This is crazy, dude. He puts the wood that he's going to sacrifice him on on the back of his son Isaac. So you got an only begotten son that the father loves with wood on his back. Son's got to carry the wood on his back up the hill where he's going to die. Bro, Bro, Are you kidding me? He gets up there. And remember, as soon as he's about to kill him, God's like, hey, dang, stop. And there's an innocent animal, little ram in the thicket. And he's like, why don't you kill that thing instead of your son? So there's a substitutionary sacrifice or atonement now, bro, this is nuts. Guess what region the mount of Golgotha is in. Moriah. Guess what mountain God told Abraham to walk, like, 80 miles to go find and then showed him when he got there. Almost certainly Golgotha.

[B]

Bro, are you kidding me?

[C]

I was gonna say do it for.

[A]

Oh, it's not even working.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

So, hey, Somebody else.

[C]

I've got, I've got a quick one because I've got nothing that's gonna take a few minutes to come cook. So I'll do a quick one, then you can, you can take it for a few. Satan went to Adam and Eve. Basically. He tried to get them to take and eat, which led to the fall of humanity and to sin and train of the world. When Jesus went to the cross to undo that the night before, what did he tell his disciples to do?

[A]

Take and eat at the Last Supper.

[C]

At the Last Supper.

[B]

I need to add to that.

[C]

Go.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Adam disobeyed in the Garden of Eden. Jesus obeyed in the garden of Gethsemane. Adam was naked in the garden and was filled with guilt and shame. Jesus was crucified naked on the cross and took upon himself that guilt and shame. After Adam sinned, the ground produced thorns as part of the curse. After Jesus obeyed, he wore a. A crown of thorns asking taken upon himself the curse of sin. Adam's side was pierced when God took one of the ribs to create Eve. And Eve came back to came to life. Jes. His side was pierced and out came blood and water. And from that the church came to life. Adam, like you said, took from the tree and sin entered the world. Jesus the second Adam didn't take, but he gave himself on a tree and salvation entered the world. Eve ate the fruit and when God confronted Adam, he blamed the woman. And since God has said that the wages of sin is death, Adam was essentially saying, God, don't kill me, kill her. In the story of Jesus, when he came to the sin of his bride, the church, Jesus the last Adam said, God, don't kill her, kill me. That's the gospel

[C]

that bro, that's so good.

[A]

Now can I just point something out? Whenever you start doing stuff like this for every like born again Christian, your heart starts to burn within you. Yeah, it's Luke 24.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Did not our hearts burn within us as he opened the scriptures to us? Like once you start learning to read the Bible through what theologians call a Christological lens, that is when it detonates like a nuclear bomb in your soul. Yeah.

[C]

And even like to give an example of how even the most boring of things can do that. Let's just be honest, when we're doing our Bible reading, a lot of people who start and they've never done it before, they usually do decent through Genesis, everything. But then you get to Exodus and the first part is really good. And then eventually you get to where they tell them how to build the tabernacle and like, oh, my gentle Jesus, are you kidding me? Kind of a thing. And it's really hard because there's all these descriptions of the tabernacle and it feels really boring. I'll let Speed read two times. Times that, if you're listening to it, whatever. But actually, the tabernacle is really cool because in part, what it's doing is recreating the Garden of Eden. And almost every Christian misses this. So let's think about the Garden of Eden for a second. So when Adam and Eve sin, they are kicked out, and they are kicked out towards the east. And they go towards the east. And then what does God do to guard the tree that is in the garden?

[A]

He puts flaming tree, right?

[C]

He puts cherubim. It says cherubim at the front of the garden. And so there's no way to get back into the presence of God. Except wait, God does provide a way to get back into the presence of God through the tabernacle. We actually have a drawing to kind of show and help people see what is happening here. Because when you go into the tabernacle, you're going into the presence of God and you have to come from the east towards the west. And what do you have to go through? Cherubim that are on avail. You have to pass by menorah. A menorah was.

[A]

So wait, on the veil, there was woven cherubim. I forgot that, bro.

[B]

Interesting. Yep, it's interesting.

[A]

It keeps going. Garden. Okay.

[C]

Yeah, it keeps going. So then you've got that manure. It has seven. That's going to be important in a minute. But what does it kind of just look like if you looked at it real quick? A tree. And in fact, it has almonds and branches woven into the goat, so it looks like a tree. And then you have to go into the holy of holies. But to do all of this, it takes what it takes. Atonement. It takes atonement to get back into the presence of God. So it's recreating literally the Garden of Eden. And so you had this tabernacle. I think we actually have a picture, though, of what the encampment around it would have looked like. Let's go. Yeah, that one. The encampment of Israel.

[A]

This is amazing.

[C]

So this is what it would have looked like.

[A]

Okay, now if you're watching this and you're a Christian and you're. And the. Your. The red lights aren't flashing on your dashboard, you're not saved. Yeah,

[C]

it's like you may be like the two, if it really was the and the uncle. That makes the fact they didn't recognize Jesus even funnier, by the way. It's like. It might be kind of like one of those situations right here.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So here's the tabernacle that was in the middle of camp. The presence of God in the middle of camp. But what you have, if you're not watching this is literally when the camps would set around it, it would make it into the shape.

[A]

Yeah. And we know this because God dictated exactly on which side of the tabernacle each of the 12 tribes were supposed to camp. And the scriptures record the number of people in each tribe. That's how we actually know it was a daggum big cross with the presence of God at the middle, wandering through the wilderness.

[C]

And here's what's so cool that I think this is pointing to, is that the tabernacle did give the ability to get back into the presence of God. God, but for only one person on one day a year. But when Christ died. It talks about eventually the tabernacle became the temple. It talks about how that curtain was torn into so that now all could have access to God for all time. If they place their faith in Jesus.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But it gets even better because the tabernacle shows up in another place in scripture. But you have to really look hard for it. It shows up in the book of Revelation. But I need to show you something else to help you see it. Go to the one that has the tribes and the banners. This is also depiction of tribes and banners just to the left of what you just clicked on. There you go. This is another depiction of how they would have camped around it. They put them side by side to fit it all on one page. But at the heads of the different kind of cardinal directions. You had different tribes that would have had different banners at them.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So you had one like an eagle, a lion, a man, and an ox at these four. So if we go to the Book of Revelation, it says this around the throne. And remember, the Ark of the Covenant would have been the idea. That's the throne of God. On each side of the throne are four living creatures full of eyes and front behind. The first living creature, like a lion. The seventh living creature like an ox. The third living creature is the face of a man. And the fourth living creature, like an eagle in flight. So the idea is this, is that because what Christ did on the cross, we do have access to the presence of God now. But it's not uninhibited because we still live in a world of sin and shame. But one day we will be gathered around the throne of God just like the Israelites were, and we will be on the uninhibited access and presence of God, just like Adam and Eve were before they sinned.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wait, while he's doing it, Let me go. Larry, this. Because, dude, there's so much here. So day of atonement, obviously, literally called atonement. Atonement is a big word. Just break it down. It means at one mint. How do you make two people who are at odds into, you know, one reconciled at one minute? So on the day of atonement, high priest, obviously he. First of all, he would take two. There was two goats. So you got an innocent animal. Again, we're just teaching you. We're teaching you, man. Listen, we're teaching you how to read the whole Bible to where it's. It's just a series of mind melds else. And points you to Jesus. Okay, so he takes two goats. One of them is called the scapegoat. Remember what he does? They confess and place the sins of all the people on the scapegoat and send it out in the wilderness to literally, physically, visually show that God is separating you from your sins as far as the east is from the west. That's what he's showing. And then number two, he's the other one. They kill the other one. The other goat they take. Innocent animal they would take. Then he would sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat, which is this thing on the top of the Ark of the Covenant where the presence of God dwelled. So think about this and what's inside of the Ark of the Covenant? One of the things is you have the broken tablets of the ten Commandments from where the people disobeyed. So think about this. He sprinkles the blood over the Ark of the Covenant with the broken ten Commandments inside of it. Why? So that God from heaven, when he's looking down, down, he's not seeing your broken commandments, he's seeing the blood covering the broken commandments. So, dude, again, all this, you just start going like, well, that's Jesus and that's Jesus and that's Jesus, and that's Jesus and it's the whole Old Testament is watching the Sixth Sense the second time.

[B]

It's amazing.

[C]

I think even just as a practical thing around this, just four helpful questions that I think people can ask whenever you're reading the Bible, I tell you, if you get stuck, ask these four questions. It's a nice little grid, especially if you're learning to read the Bible. First question is, hey, what did this mean to the people who'd received this and their time? Like, what was God trying to say to the people in their time? Kind of a thing that becomes important whenever you try to apply the Bible in your life. Because if you start having it say stuff to you in your time that they would have never read in their time, you're probably off kind of a thing. Number two, hey, are there any truths in here that are true for all time? Are there things about God or things about humans that are true in all places and all times? Number three, what does this mean for me in my time? Here's a key one, though. I did not say, what does this mean to me? With all due respect and all love and grace, no one cares, especially God, what the passage means to you, okay, that does not matter what it means to you. It's what did it mean for the people who received it, man? What does it mean for all time? And then what does it mean for you in your time? What is God trying to speak to you right now? Wherever you're at, this is you applying the Bible to your life.

[A]

It doesn't matter what it means to you. It does matter what it means for you.

[D]

For you.

[C]

Exactly. How should I respond to the truth that is in the Bible? But then, number four, how does this point to the author of time, Jesus Christ? And often. Oh, there we go. We got kind of four fancy little chart that I made for us. Because, like, if you only do that first one, if you only say, hey, what this means to the people in their time, that's just a history lesson. If it's, hey, what does this mean for all time? That's a theology lesson. If it's only, hey, what does this mean for me? It's going to be an adventure. Missing the point. Like, for example, I knew someone one time who, man, they were reading the Bible, they were reading the book of Exodus. And it got to the point where the Pharaoh said, hey, I'm actually going to take away your supplies, but you got to make just as much, if not more. And the person said, I think this is just God. God, tell me I just need to work harder. And I was like, man, I love you reading the Bible. Just in this. Pharaoh's the bad guy, not the guy you want to emulate here. So it's just an example, though, because they left out the first two. They got the third one. Wrong. But then it's like, hey, at the end of the day, man, you want every passage of scripture to point you to the one who is for all time, the one who is at the center of the whole story, and that's Jesus Christ. So just four helpful questions for you as you're reading the Bible.

[B]

You ever heard about that guy who said, lord, speak to me. Grab the Bible. And then he opened it and went to Matthew 27:5, and it says, then Judas went and hung himself. And then he said, oh, no, that's definitely not it. I'm going to try again. Then he went to Luke 10:37, and then he found go and do likewise. And then he's like, no, no, no, there's no chance. The third time's a charm. And then he landed on John 13:27. What you're about to do, do it quickly.

[A]

That's the old preacher joke. I've used that thing, like, 40 times.

[B]

Good old. Good old, tried and true. Yet you're saying. You're saying, paul, don't do that.

[C]

Don't jump to number three. I do those first two questions first, and then that can have you.

[A]

Wait, can I do one last one, please? All right. And did you have one or.

[B]

I had another one, but let me.

[A]

Let me rapid fire these. Yeah, okay, let's rapid fire them, and then we're gonna talk Jaden Ivy and that stuff. All right, so Abraham, obviously, Abraham's in Sodom. Lots over there. Abraham comes. This is one of my favorite ones. This is one. I'm like, oh, dang, I didn't see that. And now I totally see it. Abraham's in Sodom, and he knows lot. Lot's families there. His. His. His boy. And so he starts interceding to God. Abraham is functioning as a mediator between sinful man and holy God. And you remember how he starts praying? I love this so much. Remember, he starts praying. He's like, hey, God, if I can find 50 righteous people, will you spare the whole city on the behalf of 50? And God's like, deal. Everyone's like, oh, what about 40? God's like, deal, 40? He's like, oh, what? How? 30. 30. 30 what? What if I just found 30? And God's like, absolutely. Abraham, deal. Abraham's going, 20. God says, deal. Abraham gets down. The last request he makes, he says, what if I can just find 10, just 10 righteous people and God? I just imagine God almost with, like, a knowing look on his face about what's going to happen in 2,000 years. God's like Abraham, if you can find 10 righteous people, you bet you all spare them. But Abraham never continues his prayers. Because what Abraham could have done is he could have gone, what about 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2? And then Jesus comes. Who is the offspring of Abraham? Abraham, the New Testament says, and Jesus is functioning as a mediator between sinful man and a holy God. And I think essentially what Jesus does is he picks up Abraham's prayer and he looks up at heaven and says, what about one? If I can give you one righteous man, can I plead the blood of one righteous man to save all the people? And I think think God is essentially picking up Abraham's prayer and going, you bet.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

You bet I can. And that's how Jesus saved us. Now, dude, we could literally do this for hours. Like, no joke. Like, we could do this for hours. And do not your hearts burn within you. It's just what it does. So for all of our listeners, man, when you're reading the Old Testament, I want to just verbal highlight something Paul said, and then let's wrap this up talking Jaden Ivy getting fired for saying just a normal Christian thing, saying the Bible, You know? Yes. You know, like, like Paul said, when we read the Bible, we want to ask, okay, God, what did this mean for them? What does this mean for me? I cannot encourage you strongly enough when you're reading the Old Testament to ask the third question. How does this point forward to the person and work of Jesus Christ? Christ. That's when your Bible becomes like a nuclear bomb in your lap.

[C]

Yes, dude.

[A]

Will not your hearts burn within you?

[B]

And there's freedom to know as well, man. Like, you know, oftentimes we tend to think a lot about me, but then when you open up the scripture, ultimately you end up focusing less about you and more about Jesus. And, man, there's just something so freaking about that.

[A]

So much, dude.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

All right, let's. Let's talk NBA players.

[B]

Let's go, man.

[A]

Getting fired for saying things that Christians have believed for 2000 years. 5000 if you include the old covenant. All right, so here's the deal. And the reason I want to bring this up is this honestly brings up something that I would say a majority of Christians in America, like, have to ask where they work in their workplace. So here's the backstory on this, Jaden. I'm an NBA head. So Jaden Ivey was a lottery pick. Like, Jaden Ivey was a legit, legit NBA draft pick. He wasn't drafted by the Bulls. I Can't remember who he's drafted by, but end just ended up on the Bulls. So it starts here. Jaden Ivy, after a pretty rough past, was apparently radically saved. If I'm understanding the parts this correctly, gets radically saved. Then he's doing like an Instagram live. And essentially what he's doing, we're going to show it to you in a second. What he's doing is he's pointing at out that. Honestly, I've always wondered, like, I, I, I've always thought, oh, I would get fired from any professional sports team. And that's not just because of lack of talent. I would get. Because they, I've always. They make these guys during June. They make like all of them. They make all these guys wear all the lgbt, all the Pride flag stuff. I'd always been like, dude, if you're a Christian in the league, how, how are you going to handle that? Like, so Jaden is very fairly in this Instagram live, kind of sounding off on this phenomenon and the problem it creates from his Christian. Now watch what he says. Ch. Check. Let's do this. First,

[C]

that the world can proclaim lgbtq,

[B]

Right? They have, they have.

[C]

They proclaim Pride Month and the NBA. Yeah, they proclaim it.

[D]

They, they show it to the world.

[C]

They say, come, come, come join us for Pride, for Pride Month to celebrate unrighteousness.

[A]

That's it. Okay, now you're good, you're good there now. Okay, so he says this, Join us for Pride Month. Celebrate unrighteousness. First of all, that's 100% true. Yeah, that is, that is a very basic biblical application. That is 100% true. So then the very next day, it, it took less than, I think it was like 15 hours. Bulls post this on their Instagram account. Chicago Bulls announced today the team has waived guard Jaden Ivey due to conduct detrimental to the team. Immediately. Like, didn't even take one day. Now, I want to point out a couple things about this. First of all, all you've got players all over the NBA who, who have beaten their wives, who have been found guilty of domestic abuse, who have made, I mean, you can. Yeah, like, I actually looked it up. There's like 60 examples. Like, it's, that's not awesome. All them still got their jobs. But you say one thing that Christians have believed for 2,000 years or 5,000, include the old Covenant, you've gone and adapted. Now, I'm going to show you here in a second. I want to show you how people that call themselves Christians but are either on purpose or accidentally playing for the other team. How they respond when a Christian with convictions and courage acts like a Christian with convictions and courage. But I just want to point out a couple things about this and then I love hear your thoughts and then we'll respond to Emmanuel. Asha, real quick. First of all, to my fellow, I know we got a ton of pastors that watch this podcast. I just want to gently but firmly encourage pastors. Pastors have like an ick. There's a huge ick factor among pastors. I'm, I'm talking to like my. This is like insider baseball. Real quick. Everybody else is listening in. There's like a huge ick factor among pastors for like leaning in on what are called quote, unquote culture war issues. I would just like to remind every pastor that's watching this, this is that you are literally the only person in your entire church who has the luxury of avoiding quote, unquote culture war issues because you get to live in a tithe dollar created bubble by the generous giving of your people and they actually have to walk out the door and work in actual real world offices and risk their jobs where they're faced with questions and issues like that every single day. Day. So I just gently want to encourage pastor, like, how are you going to expect your people to have convictions and courage in their workplaces when you won't have convictions and courage in your pulpit? So I just gently want to remind pastors who tend to have an ick factor about like talking about issues like this because I don't want to sound like a culture warrior or I don't. Da, da da. Wait a minute. Here's the deal. You may not be very interested in the culture war. The culture war is interested in you and the culture war is interested in the people that God put you on this planet to shepherd and protect. So I just gently want to like use this as a moment to say like, hey man, do your job. Be willing to lean over the plate, be willing to go over the middle. And you may take a few hits, but that's okay. That's what we signed up for. And again, the courage of your people is never going to rise above the courage of their pulpit and their pastor. So number one, I just want to point that out that out. Number two and three, I also want to point out there is a, again, it's a very demonic double standard. So what you got is players can rob their families and they can beat women. They can make very open, very openly anti Christian comments from both players and coaches, I have some examples. I won't use them for the moment very openly. They can make extremely polarizing political comments. You know, commentary on things like BLM or how ICE are murderers. And, like, this is stuff that's literally happened, zero consequences. But the second somebody voices a Christian belief about marriage and sexuality, you're gone. You gone. So I just want to point out the demonic double standard. Okay. I also just want to gently point this out. And I'm not an idiot for people listening to podcasts. I just want you to know I'm not stupid and I'm not unself aware. I know that what a lot of pastors say about me is, oh, Josh went off the rails and he started getting political.

[C]

Political.

[A]

Okay. There's a million things I could say about that. The biggest one I want to say is, hey, man, I didn't start getting political politics. Started getting spiritual. Because when you have issues like that and people, when you address them, people call you political. No, man, all I did is just open my Bible and apply it to the world that my people have to deal with. So what I want to point out. And you can call me partisan all you want, I don't care. I just want to point out the reality to Christians who. And every Christian should engage in the political process. I just gently want to point out, man, you can say all you want. Ah, the gospel is neither right nor left or da, da, da. Okay, the gospel is neither right nor left, but the gospel is about right and wrong. And there is a moral asymmetry in the current political taxonomy and stuff like that that gets Christians fired or makes it impossible to be a publicly convictional Christian in a workplace. Stuff like that only comes from one political side. I'm sorry, man, that's just reality. There's only one political side that does stuff like that. So, like, as a Christian, we need to acknowledge reality and play the game that has been handed to us and acknowledge that reality. Now. Last thing I want to say is here's what I'll point out. And I want to talk about. About this. I want to respond to Emmanuel Osho real quick. It is not a coincidence that in the Old Testament. The demonic false gods in the Old Testament are very frequently. They mix their demonism with sexual perversion. You all right over there?

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna sneeze.

[A]

Go ahead. There is. They mix their. They mix their demonism with sexual perversion. So when you're reading the Old Testament about the gods, like Mold, Bullock, Asherah, by the way, all Asherah is In the Old Testament, a lot of people don't know this. All Asherah was. Whenever you see in the Old Testament, it talks about the Asherah poles in high places. This is going to sound real gross, but, like, this is just what the Bible is. All it was was a massive phallic symbol that these people who worship this demonic false God of Asherah is like, honestly, I'm just gonna say, if you got a mom with kids in the car, like, just mute the this for five seconds real quick. If anybody's not picking it up. Like, all those were, like, giant penis statues that they would worship and do extremely sexually degraded things around. In demonic. In demon worship in the New Testament, when it talks about the revelation, chapter three mentions Jezebel, that was apparently some kind of demonic spirit because it's referring back to something that happened in the Book of Kings in the Old Testament. But it's saying, hey, the same things happen in this church. So it's a demonic spirit. And it says that what that demonic spirit does is it teaches and seduces my people to practice sexual immorality. So what you need to understand is what demons do is they mix with sexual perversion and they create demonic, false, sexually perverse, and degraded religious expressions. So, dude, here's the thing. And I. I get crushed every time I talk about this. We get crushed, but it's like, we just need to help people understand the spiritual realities. The LGBT movement, if you're asking yourself the question, like, man, how did essentially this movement, like, take over? Like, it literally took over our culture in two decades, like, two and a half decades, how did that happen? Because it's a demonic thing, and it functions like a religion. So think about this for a second. Lgbtqia, all those things, It's a religion. It's a religion of demonic sexual perversion. Every letter in the LGBTQIA functions like a denomination of the religion. And if you like thinking people have started asking themselves, like, huh, well, why are they, like, so passionate about having drag queens read books to little kids in libraries? Why are they so passionate about that? Why are they so passionate about having, like, gay porn books, gay porn literature books in elementary schools, and they lose their minds when people want to take extremely graphic homosexual perverse books out of kids elementary schools. Why are they so passionate about this? Well, here's why. Because eventually every religion has to get into children's ministry. That's why. Now, let me take it a step further. Here's what, like, what good Bible readers got to learn to do do is let me Take the word and use it as a taxonomy to overlay on the world that's in front of me. So here's the deal, man. And Christians are not good at, like, making this connection. Here's the deal. Every religion has its Pharisees. Usually in our culture, when people hear the word Pharisee, they think of like, super conservative Bible thumper that's angry at people all the time. And by the way, there are horrible, horrible, awful, Satanically empowered people with Bibles in their hand, thumping them and being agents of condemnation. Absolutely. But honestly, dude, in our culture. So who are the Pharisees? The Pharisees were people who had serious political and cultural power. They were the cultural elites of their day. And they enforced the cultural hegemony, the cultural orthodoxy that was there. And if anybody crossed this, them. Yeah, it was like, dude, we're going to trouble. We in trouble, man.

[C]

No grace.

[A]

No grace. No grace right now, dude. It's. It's people in that movement. Like, per. Honestly, I'll just. Here's the best way to say it. Honestly. Secular progressive people are the modern day Pharisees of our culture. They force and enforce a rigid orthodoxy on the surrounding culture. And if you cross their line and you apostatize from. From it, they will judge you, damn you, excommunicate you, and make sure you get fired. So you just got to start learning to, like, put the spiritual realities together. You're dealing with a religion. Religions are spiritually empowered either by the Holy Spirit or unholy spirits. And every religion has its Pharisees. Those are the Pharisees.

[C]

And what's interesting, before we get into the video, you mentioned a lot of different passages. Romans 1 is so intriguing on this one because Romans 1 is often pointed out where. This is where Paul explicitly says, no, no, like any kind of homosexual behavior is not honoring to God. It's not God's design. But what does he address just before he does that? He addresses idolatry.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And he says, because they were not willing to worship God as he actually is, he gave them up to dishonorable passions. Is literally what it says. And so. But think about what Paul in another place in Corinthians says. Idol worship is. It's the worship of. Of demons.

[A]

That's right. Y.

[C]

And so the idea of they're not worshiping God correctly, and so God hands them over. And so it literally says, and this is actually pretty close to what Jordan said. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a Debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness. So he's pretty much just quoting Romans 1. Exact what Romans 1 says. Yeah. So it's just. I just. That was an intriguing connection that I

[A]

just want to make there. Yeah. Remember what it says? So he says, says at the end of Romans 1. Check this out. Now, before I read this verse, remember what Jaden Ivey's objecting to is, man, they're making me, as a Christian NBA player, celebrate and promote Pride Month. They're making me get. I'm going to use this language. They're making me publicly give approval to those who practice this unrighteousness. Now that in mind, let me read Romans 1:32. Though they know God's degree, agree that those who practice such things deserve to die. And it's just talking about sinners, Sinners in general. Sin deserves death. They not only do them, but they give approval to those who practice them.

[B]

Yeah, every culture war is a spiritual war. In this case, that's bro.

[A]

That's the thing. So, like, if for pastors who are listening, I get this all the time. Like, you know, don't. You don't lean into the culture. Culture wars, my brother. It's called a culture war. It's actually a spiritual war. Like, literally, our job is to not run away from spiritual wars. That's like, literally our job. Now, let me just. What I want to help people understand, because every Christian is going to get faced with stuff like this. Like the Jade Na thing. That's a microcosm of what I won't use any names. What men and women in our church have had happen to them. And again, no names. But, like, we have multiple NBA players that listen to this podcast. So it's like helping guys. How do I think about this? Okay. How do I think about this? So check this out. This is Emmanuel Acho, who's a sports commentator. He's a. I think he's an ESPN guy. He calls himself a Christian. And, you know, I don't want to go too hard on him, but on this big swing and a miss, the reason I want to do this is he's commenting, commenting on that Jaden Ivey deal. The reason I want to do this is whenever you, as a Christian, begin to live by your convictions, what you are about to see is what all the lukewarm Christians around you are going to start saying about you. So I want to help inoculate you to what 1000% is going to happen to you from people who call themselves Christians. Okay, so check the. Check this out. Let's go for it.

[D]

There is freedom of speech, but freedom of speech does not necessarily mean freedom of consequence. I also will remind everybody, starting from the sports perspective, your talent will make room for you. If Dayton Ivey was averaging 20 points and 10 assists right now, 20 points and 10 boards right now, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But because In January of 2025, he broke his left fibula. And then in October 1, 2025, he had arthroscopic knee surgery. And then again, he's missed the last two weeks he had missed starting in February 21 after getting traded from the Detroit Pistons to the Chicago Bulls. As a result averaging 11 points and three assists, his talent is not making room for him. Plus, if you're in the training room,

[A]

we do not pause, pause, pause. So what he said is, your talent will make room for you. Listen, man, here's my big deal. What I would say is, yes, Emmanuel, and your righteousness will make rewards for. For you. Whose team do you care the most about being a star on? So, like, this is basic parenting 101. Like, when my kids come home and they're using words like cool and popular, what Jan and I immediately do is like, cool in whose eyes? Popular in whose eyes? In God's eyes? Or in some fourth grader that's a fool and is a godless fool at that?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like he. It's, it's like what I want to say is, man, he sent. Your talent will make room for you. Yeah. Yeah. And your righteousness will make rewards for you. And praise God for a Christian that cared more about living by his convictions and seeking eternal rewards than quote, unquote, making sure your talent so makes room for you. So what I say is, man, whose team are you trying to make? Yeah. And who's. Who's. Who are you trying to earn reward from? From?

[C]

Yeah. Well, and I think with that is much like when I hear them like, so are you saying that if he was doing that, it'd be okay for him to do that? So if he was scoring 20 and you said that, you'd have no problem with it then.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like he was in the. That's the response question I want to have. So I'm like starting with that kind of, to me kind of feels like a non starter because I'm like, I get what he is saying in terms of the practicality of it, but at the same time. So you're Saying so then everybody would be okay with it. And the reality is you and I both know, yeah, everybody would not be okay with it. We'd still have the double standard.

[A]

No, I do think there would be a double standard. I do think, think like, like bro, like Seth Curry or somebody said that, like, you would not see the team cut him in 14 hours, probably would have been fired.

[C]

That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[A]

It's just a reality. All right, let's keep going. I want you to see this. Watch.

[D]

I necessarily want to hear from you. We want to just see you recovering. So from a sports perspective, starting there, athletes, you know, your talent makes room for you. The talent starts to diminish. We do not want to hear you more than we see you. That's number one.

[A]

Number two, this is nasty.

[D]

I don't like the path that Jaden Ivy is going down. And the reason I say this is this. Number one, Jaden Ivey's been through a lot. If you hear what he's talked about. He was sexually molested as a child. He had a porn addiction while he was married. He's self admitted that he was abusive towards his wife and his children.

[A]

Pause. Yeah, that's why he hates perversion. It's like, I just want to pause and say that like, like my dad was saved out of alcoholism. My dad has a unique hatred, hatred for alcohol. What you're pointing out is you're just going, oh, who's this guy? To have this conviction? Because he came out, it's like, bro, that's why he hates it. He's seen what perversion and degradation can do to a man. Of course he has to care about it. Now what I really don't like is watch what happens here. He starts questioning the guy's mental stability.

[D]

These are all Jaden Ify's words, not my own. And so Jaden Ifee is also acknowledging like, he's a struggling individual. Individuals that have struggled. So let me acknowledge that. Acknowledge the emotional and the interpersonal aspects as well. Anybody that's been to therapy understands things that happen to you as a child, they impact you as an adult. Now let me talk about the biblical aspect of it.

[A]

Yeah, pause real quick. So he's obviously, he's alluding to the whole mental health thing. So this is. And I've seen this. If, if you guys seen this, where people are starting to like, ah, maybe he has some mental health issues, that kind of thing. First of all, he may. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I'VE seen no evidence of that. So if it comes out later, then okay, whatever. But I do just want to point out there is a double standard here. And, and here's the double standard. And this is kind of thing. Just keep the camera on me so they don't get in trouble. This would just be me. What I want to point out is so think about what's happening. What you have is a Christian heterosexual man, a Christian heterosexual man that's saying that that same song sex sexual activity is unrighteous. That's all he said. We played the clip. That's all he said. As a result, people are gone. That guy probably has mental health issues. Now. Let me just remind us. Until 1973, in the official DSM manual in the United States, homosexual orientation, same sex orientation. Same sex sexual orientation was classified until 1973 as a mental health disorder. In 1973, they changed it. They changed the name of it to, they reclassified it as quote, unquote, sexual orientation disturbance. It stayed in the DSM as a, a form of mental health disorder until it was removed entirely from activist pressure in 1987. Now, man, can I just point this out like this. The, the Christian heterosexual man that's saying that, man, that's unrighteous. That's the guy that everybody wants to call the mental health issue. When until like 5 minutes ago in human history, what we understood is, man, actually something's wrong if somebody's attracted to the same sex. And I just want like men, obviously all of them, us as disciples of Jesus Christ, friend of sinners. When somebody struggles with same sex attraction, my goodness, mercy, compassion, love, love that person, want to help disciple them just like everybody else out of any issue that they face. But very frankly, if a dude is sexually attracted to another dude, yes, there is something wrong. If a chick is attracted to other girls, yes, something is wrong. So we have the mental health issues flipped. Why? Because what demonic false prophets always do according to the book of Isaiah. Woe to you who begin to call good evil and evil good.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

That's always what happens. Amen now. All right, keep going. Check this out.

[D]

Because Jade and Ivy also has to understand that not everything that's legal is going to be biblical rendered to seek Caesar. What is Caesar's?

[A]

What's he even talking about?

[D]

Also have to understand, you have to be wise, discerning.

[A]

Pause, pause, pause. Hang on. So on the render to Caesar, what is Caesar? I just want to point this out. First of all, he didn't say anything about legality. He just called it unrighteous. Like, hey, man, I don't like as a Christian being forced to participate in pride celebrations. That's all he said. The other thing I want to say, and, man, if Emmanuel watches this, first of all, dude, I love. I love most of your stuff. So, like, please don't take this as, like, I just think you missed it here as a. As a brother, and I think it's important. Important because you're hurting the convictions and the courage of Christians who are watching you. That's why I'm saying this. What I want to point out is he's bringing up the render to Caesar what is Caesar's, and render to God what's God's. Well, hey, bro, guess what the point of that whole parable, that whole little saying is. Jesus does that whole thing where he's like, hey, whose likeness and inscription is on the coin? Caesar's. And then Jesus does the hey, well, then render unto Caesar what Caesar's, and render unto God's what's God's? And everyone around him knew, well, man, remember from the book of Genesis, guess whose likeness and inscription is on you and you and you and you and Caesar. You're created in God's likeness and God's image. The whole purpose of that thing is not, well, we just let Caesar do and enforce evil. And because Caesar says it, we just let him do his thing. We stay over here. The whole purpose of that little statement of Jesus is Caesar belongs to God, and Caesar should not be enforcing anything as good that God calls evil. All right, let's. Let's keep going. He's now right here back up to. To 130. Because he actually makes an important point here. Yeah.

[D]

Also have to understand, you have to be wise, discerning, and tactful as to how you speak and when you speak and who you speak to.

[A]

True.

[D]

Jaden Ivy, if you want to quote Paul in Corinthians, Paul wrote what he wrote to the church in Corinth. He didn't necessarily write what he wrote to the church in Ephesus or the church in Galatia in the same manner. J Nivy, you got to use discernment of when you speak and who you're speaking. If your job and your goal is to emulate Jesus, also understand.

[A]

Pause. So, first of all, let me just say true. Yeah. It actually is true that as Christians, you don't just walk in every building, just start spouting every conviction you have that's necessarily offensive. He's right. You do need to have Tact there. Now, let me ask you guys real quick thoughts for biblical principles for Christians that are listening. Well, how do I know. Know when I do speak about my convictions in a. In a public setting, and when do I not. You guys got any, what guiding principles you got here?

[B]

Yeah. First of all, you have to be mindful that, you know, people will say today, well, hey, Josh, you're a Christian. You shouldn't impose your views on other people. But when somebody says that to you, you need to understand that those people saying that, they don't realize that by saying that, you are literally imposing your view on other people as well, like, you're doing the very same thing thing that you're complaining about. So that's one. Just be mindful. The question is not whether we will impose views on other people. The question is whose views will be imposed on other people? Man first Peter 3:15 says, but in your hearts, revere, revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. In other words, be ready when somebody says, hey, you're a Christian. Why do you believe LGBTQ pride celebration is unrighteous? Bible literally commands us to be prepared to respond. But then the. The key word is right after that, it says, but when you do it, do it with gentleness and respect.

[A]

Respect.

[B]

And so I think when Christians share truth, we do it with conviction, but we also do it with compassion.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so we want to be bold. And at the same time, we have. We want to have a heart that is brokenhearted for the people that are lost. And so we want to. We. We. We're sinners, saved by grace. And so, man, when we share other people, what is true ultimately, is to point them to the. The person who said, I am the truth. That's ultimately to point people to Jesus. We want to win souls, not just arguments.

[A]

That's right, man. Yeah.

[C]

At one point, Jesus said, behold, I'm sending you out a sheep amongst wolves. So. And. But then he literally then connects that to so therefore, be as shrewd as a serpent and as innocent as a dove. So in your conduct, be innocent. But then there is this idea of, hey, I'm sending you out of sheep amongst wolves. You got to be shrewd. You've got to be wise. You've got to be almost like cunning in how you're. You're. You're behaving. And so you even, like, there is this temptation for Christians. I'm like, all right, I'm Going to take a stand and go out in a blaze of glory. And sometimes you might be called to do that. But it's noteworthy that in the first two or three hundred centuries, while Christianity was so very much persecuted, that's not what Christians did. They didn't just go out and in front of the marketplace, say, I am a Christian. Kill me now. No, they at some points had to be willing to take a stand for their faith when it was necessary, but they didn't necessarily go looking for a fight. And so I think that's just one thing because they, I've had friends in the marketplace, when I was up in Washington, had a friend that was in a company that they said they were going to put their preferred pronouns on their emails, and then you had to say, I opt out if you didn't want it. So you had to basically step forward. And he struggled with that. And so on the one hand, because he was very.

[A]

Because he knew he was going to put a mark on his back because.

[C]

Yeah, because we had a bunch and there were people going for his position and he knew that they could potentially use this to leverage to get him out to get his position.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And so it's, it's hard because he's a faith. He was a faithful brother, and there were places where he had to take some stands. But he was also still trying to be shrewd so that he could be a light in that workplace. And he knew that this could be a thing. And so I guess one thing, and the hard thing is every situation is so different. By the way, this is why for those who are, who are listening from, not, not here, being in a local church is so crucial because every situation is so complicated. This is why you need good local pastors and elders who can go get counsel from people who can listen to, you know, your situation. But it's just an example where he didn't go looking for fights everywhere, but then occasionally he had to take a stand. So, like, with that being said, you know, maybe Jaden Ivey was unwise just to throw this out there when no one was asking him the question. I was going to say that's actually what. Not what we're frustrated about. I think I'm correct to say what we're frustrated about is the double standard of a lot of what's taking place here, that it's not right in every direction. And even as I brought up to you guys when we were texting back and forth about this, is that the Chicago Bulls let him go because of this, this. And yet they didn't say anything when the NBA renewed their contract with United Arab Emirates for $300 million. Where, by the way, they don't just consider it unrighteous to practice same sex acts, they consider it illegal to practice same sex.

[A]

Let's pause and just say this one more time. The. The NBA just entered into a contract with a nation.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Where it is illegal.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

To practice any form of homosexuality.

[C]

Yeah. And when this happened, but then Jade N iy, I saw so many NBA players and teams and people to say, no, you can't do this. This is so terrible. No, no, they didn't. So I think all that being said, and I'll wrap up, is that's, I think part of a lot of what we're frustrated at is like, hey, if you're going to do something, be consistent in it. But I say just to Christians to say, hey, there might be some places where, honestly you might need to practice some discretion about where you do that. But then if it is forced upon you, you need to be willing to take the heat. Just like Daniel was when it came time.

[A]

Yeah, man. So, like, I think a principle. So two, two things I would say is obviously as a Christian, what you don't do is you don't leave lead in your relationships with whatever is the thing that's like the. Whatever's gonna be the most offensive thing. So here's the, here's the example I have. So in First Corinthians 5, this is a really, this is a really important guiding verse here in First Corinthians 5, Paul's got that deal where there's the dude that's sleeping with a stepmom and they have to, they have to practice church discipline on the guy and kick him out of the church because he's unrepentant, severe sexual degradation. Now listen to what Paul says here. So 1 Corinthians 5, 9. I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. But then he's got to make a qualifier. And here's his qualifier, verse 10, not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world. Since then you would need to go out of the world. So essentially he's gone, hey, bro, welcome to life in Rome. You're not going to meet, essentially, he's gone. You're not going to meet like a chase, heterosexual, monogamous dude in Rome. So he's gone, man. Obviously I'm not telling you to avoid anybody that's like that. So then he qualifies he says, but now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother. So a Christian, if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, swindler. And he's saying, like, people who are, they're reveling in the sin. It's totally unrepentant, repentant. They're actually promoting it as a fine and positive thing. He's saying, don't even eat with such a one. And then this is what's important. Verse 12. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Okay, so what I would say is, hey, man, when you're talking to lost people, did you just. They're going to be lost people. Don't be surprised about them being lost people. Whenever I talk to somebody, like on a plane or whatever, I talk to a guy in air the airport this week, and I'm having faith conversations. If anything about sexuality comes up, I'll be honest. Usually what I do, and somebody may yell at me and tell me I'm wrong. But here's what I do is I'm trying to get the first thing first, because once they get the lordship of Jesus, everything else is going to fall into line. You don't start with second things first. So what I usually do is if they ask me about anything, sexuality, I say, hey, man, actually, I'll answer any question you want. Any question I want. But honestly, dude, here's what I'd encourage you to do is just figure out where you are on Jesus and then try to figure out what he says about everything else. That's great, but really first, just figure out the first thing first or you're going to get confused by all the second things. I would just focus on what you think about, did Jesus rise from the dead? And once you figure that out, then you can figure out what he says about everything else.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Now, I do always toss in, I'll answer any question you want, but I'll be super honest. I try to matador them and just let. Because I just want to talk about Jesus, you know? Now the one thing I would say to Acho over here is like, when's. If you're going, when is the spot where I do say something? I actually think what Ivy did was a strategic and courageous thing. Because the principle that I've got, I'm going to go back to Daniel. When someone is asking you to Violate your convictions as a Christian. That's when you say something.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And very frankly, will you toss up that. Toss up that picture of the Bulls last. Last June? Yeah. I mean, there you go. There you go. That's the Bull stadium last June. And on every. On every single player's jersey, they asked them. Them to wear. As a promotion of something that no Christian can support, they asked them to wear the. So the Bulls are as. People are like, oh, why did Jaden Ivy bring a fight to the Bulls? Jaden Ivy didn't bring a fight to the Bulls. The Bulls brought the fight to Jaden Ivy and essentially tried to go, bow down, son.

[B]

Seems like they're trying to impose their religion on other people as well.

[A]

That's it. So think about. Here's what I'll say, and then we'll finish it up. We'll finish up this Ocho thing and we're going to be done. Notice what Daniel does if you go back and read Daniel 1, 2, and 3. So Daniel, he gets captured by this pagan Babylonian empire. They bring him in, they tell him where he's going to live. They tell him what school he's going to go to. They literally castrate him. And then they start teaching him all their pagan stuff. But then there comes a moment where they start telling him what he's got to eat, and they try to make him eat stuff that was in violation of the Old Testament commands on cleanliness laws. And that's where Daniel goes. Sorry, I got a line. Yeah, and here's my line. I'll live in your nation. I'll go to your school. I even just let you castrate me, and I'll study your books, but I will not let you make me sin. And that's where a Christian has to decide. Yep. That's where my line is. That's where my line is. Okay, let just finish her up here.

[D]

When Jesus saw the woman who had committed adultery, he said, go and sin no more. He didn't then try to extrapolate every single sin and every single man she has slept with with adulterous sleep period.

[A]

Pause, pause. That's not what J. N Did. I just want to say that's not what Javi did. He didn't do that. Keep going.

[D]

So I will just start by saying, one, understand there's a difference between legal and biblical. Two, Jaden Ivy, make sure you tend to your mental and emotional health if indeed there is anything going on, because you have been very vulnerable about your struggles previously. And then three, render to Caesar what is Caesar's and render to God what's God's. That's biblical.

[C]

If you want to talk.

[A]

Yeah. I'll just say. Say this. Pull up that meme. That is what just happened. Let's go back to Daniel. Everybody needs to bow down to this idol. And if you don't bow down, you're going to lose your job. And what it took is one guy going, sorry, no. And then, you know, if. If somebody's a. You know, if somebody's a professional athlete, somebody's in the league, somebody, you know, somebody's doing this. This stuff. The courage of one man. What it ought to do is put courage in the hearts of other men. And I'm not telling anybody how they need to handle stuff. You know, like Paul said, wisest serpents, innocent as doves.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But let the faith and courage of one guy spread. And I just want to say, good job, Jaden Ivy.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

You must obey God rather than men. And I want to encourage Jaden ivy with Matthew 10:23. Jesus said, if you confess me before man, I also will confess you before my father who is in heaven. Well done, brother.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Pastor Josh, would you pray for us?

[A]

Amen. First of all, Father, we love you. And we love people who don't know you, coming to know you. So, Father, I just. I pray for a lost and dying world, that you would give all of us the heart of Jesus Christ, who is a friend of sinners who died for sinners. So, Father, more than anything else, would you just give us a heart to seek and to save those who are lost, no matter the background, no matter the sin, no matter the ideology. That's why I pray. I also pray that you would strengthen the courage, the hearts and the resolve of Christianity, just like your word says to be strong, stand firm, be strong, act like men, let all that you do be done in love. I pray that for that man and for men and women of the word all over the world. And, Father, I pray especially on this Easter week, that you would harvest, harvest a mass in gathering into your kingdom and that hundreds of thousands and millions of people would meet the risen Jesus Christ this Easter. As we're all celebrating, I pray that in his resurrected name, Amen.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Amen. Live free, brother.

[A]

Live free.

[C]

Free.

[A]

Sam.