Who are the NEPHILIM in the Bible?! (EXPLAINED) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary: Live Free with Josh Howerton
Episode: Who are the NEPHILIM in the Bible?! (EXPLAINED)
Host: Lakepointe Church (Carlos Arazo & Pastor Paul Cunningham)
Date: March 16, 2026

---

Overview

This episode dives into one of the Bible's most mysterious passages: Who are the Nephilim? The hosts, Carlos Arazo and Pastor Paul Cunningham, explore the biblical text, historical interpretations, and common misconceptions about the Nephilim. Along the way, they connect these themes to broader discussions on discipleship, politics, and biblical literacy—all with their signature humor, approachable tone, and deep scriptural engagement. Whether you're a Bible nerd or just curious about giants, angels, and the strange stories in Genesis, this episode brings clarity and practical insight.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Church Life Updates and Community News

• Free T-Shirt Weekend: Lakepointe is hosting an upcoming event encouraging invites to Easter and connecting faith to everyday life through something as simple as a shirt (05:20–06:03).
• Mass Wedding Celebration: Over 52 couples recently formalized their marriages at Church after responding to a sermon invitation. Community support and restoration were emphasized (06:03–08:34).
• Encouragement to Join a Local Church: Regardless of where listeners tune in from, there’s a call to plug into a Bible-believing, life-giving local church for authentic discipleship (08:34–09:56).

---

2. Sermon Recap: Matthew 21 and Politics

• Triumphal Entry Explained: Jesus enters Jerusalem from the east, riding a donkey (fulfilling prophecy—Zechariah 9:9), symbolizing humility. Meanwhile, Pilate enters from the west on horseback with soldiers, symbolizing worldly power (11:10–13:17).
  • “Jesus is actually juxtaposing the way his kingdom is with the way most worldly kingdoms are.” (13:48, Paul)
• Parable of the Good Samaritan Paralleled: Jesus’ journey mirrors the parable’s story—choosing compassion, rescue, and sacrifice (14:17–16:22).
  • “The parable of the Good Samaritan ultimately points to the gospel of the good Savior. His name is Jesus, bro.” (16:22, Carlos)

---

3. Christians and Politics: Balance & Practical Wisdom

• Two Mistakes to Avoid

  1. Deifying Politics: Treating politics as religion; searching for salvation in leaders; leads to misplaced hope and hopelessness when politicians disappoint.
     • “This is why, when you deify politics—candidates are perceived as saviors, rallies feel like worship services,... and elections feel like salvation or damnation.” (21:58, Carlos)
  2. Denying Politics: Ignoring the biblical role of government, failing to love neighbors practically.
     • “Politics is all over the Bible... Christians care deeply about politics because Christians care deeply about people.” (21:44–21:58, Carlos)
  3. Jesus’ Lordship Is Comprehensive: Every area—including politics—belongs to Jesus (23:09–23:26).
     • “He is Lord over every square inch of my life and over every square inch of creation. Politics and government is not the one exception to the place where he is Lord over.” (28:38, Paul)

• Practical Watch-Outs for Engaging Politics (32:34–50:46)

  • Don’t let faith become just another ‘hat’ you wear. Discipleship should permeate all areas, including political engagement.
  • Be wary of politicians or public figures using Christian language to mask unbiblical policies. Reference to James Talarico’s misuse of the Gospel of Thomas as an example (32:34–37:41).
  • Niceness isn’t enough; pursue Christlike love, which includes truth and courage. (39:00–40:05)
  • Avoid thinking ‘If you’re a Christian, you must (or can’t) support X policy’ on disputed issues, unless the Bible and historic Christian witness clearly agree. Distinction between open-handed and closed-handed issues (45:07–46:51).
  • Self-examination: "If you can’t criticize your own party or candidate, you might be brainwashed or be placing political figures above Jesus." (48:31–51:48)

---

4. Deep Dive: Who Are the Nephilim?

• Biblical Basis

• Genesis 6:4 (“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days... sons of God came into the daughters of man and they bore children...”)
• Numbers 13:33 also references Nephilim.
• Discussion of internet and popular culture depictions (53:11–54:47).

• Three Major Views (54:54–65:12)

1. Fallen Angels: “Sons of God” as spiritual beings (angels), with the Nephilim as the hybrid offspring. Supported by Jewish tradition and some New Testament passages (2 Peter, Jude). Objections include Jesus’ teaching that angels do not marry (59:33–61:20).
2. Godly Line of Seth: "Sons of God" are descendants of Seth, intermarrying with Cain’s line—emphasizes human sin and fits the immediate context (53:35–65:07).
3. Ancient Kings/Rulers: "Sons of God" are powerful, possibly demon-possessed kings taking any woman they wish, in violation of God’s design.
4. Minor View: The Nephilim are simply valiant human warriors—a phrase akin to “Rambo”—not related to divine beings (56:57–57:47).

• Paul’s Current Position: Leans toward the fallen angels view—angelic beings overstepping their boundaries—while acknowledging the debate is open-handed among Christians (65:12).

• Addressing Common Myths & Questions (66:20–77:02)

• Book of Enoch: Not inspired Scripture; offers ‘fan fiction’ details but is written thousands of years after Enoch (67:28–68:43).
• Nephilim Built the Pyramids, or Have Descendants Today? No evidence (69:19–70:13).
• "Nephilim proves mythology": The biblical account differs—it frames such mixed beings as a sign of escalating evil, not as heroes or demigods. (71:22–73:08).
• What’s the point? Don’t obsess over what’s a biblical mystery, and don’t let speculation distract from the main story—God’s plan of redemption and the call to become holy.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Jesus] deliberately chose the road to the cross instead of becoming the political king the crowd wanted. And yet, at the same time, Jesus did come in as king, fulfilling the prophecy in Zechariah.” (10:28, Carlos)
• “The parable of the Good Samaritan ultimately points to the gospel of the good Savior.” (00:00 and 16:22, Carlos)
• “If you can’t say one thing your party or candidate has done wrong, there’s three options: they’re Jesus, you’re brainwashed, or you’re being a coward.” (48:31, Paul)
• “Far too often Christians are weird in all the ways we should be normal and normal in all the ways we should be weird.” (70:13, Paul)
• “If you found out today who the Nephilim were, what would change about your life tomorrow?” (74:42, Paul)
• “Don’t let your obsession with things we can’t know keep you from what we can know. That is, the God who wants to be known.” (77:02, Paul)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• T-Shirts & Marriage Celebration: 05:20–08:34
• On Plugging Into a Local Church: 08:34–09:56
• Sermon Recap/Two Triumphal Entries: 11:10–13:17
• Good Samaritan Parable Parallel: 14:17–16:22
• Deifying vs. Denying Politics: 20:07–23:26
• Faith as All of Life (‘Hat’ analogy): 28:09–29:50
• Practical Political Engagement: 32:34–51:48
• Nephilim Bible Passages: 53:07–54:47
• Nephilim Main Interpretations: 54:54–65:12
• Nephilim Myths & Book of Enoch: 66:20–68:43
• Why It Matters (or Not): 74:42–77:02

---

Episode Tone & Language

Casual, engaging, biblically rooted, with lots of humor, practical application, and a conversational tone. The hosts aim for clarity without dumbing down, and repeatedly encourage biblical literacy, critical thinking, and Christ-loving community.

---

Final Takeaways

• Stay grounded in the Bible: Dig deep, but focus on what’s clear and central—God’s character and Jesus as Savior & King.
• Engage politics as a disciple: Neither idolize nor ignore; let your faith inform your vote, your civic life, and your love for neighbor.
• Don’t get lost in speculation: Whether it’s the Nephilim or conspiracy theories, don’t let the mysterious distract you from Christ and his mission.
• Be practical & courageous: Live out your faith, invite others, and be salt and light—not just on Sundays, but in all areas of life.

---

(To hear the full episode or access more resources, download the Lakepointe app or visit lakepointe.church/digital/)

Transcript

[A]

The parable of the Good Samaritan ultimately points to the gospel of the good Savior.

[B]

He is Lord over every square inch of my life and over every square inch of creation. Politics and government is not the one exception to the place where he is Lord over.

[A]

We don't want to deify politics, but at the same time, we don't want to deny politics. Well, hey, Lit Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. Texas. But the live free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for Church Online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live free podcast. My name is Carlos Arazo, and today I'm here with Pastor Paul Cunningham, AKA Chad G. Paul C. AKA the Epistle Missile.

[B]

Come on, man.

[A]

AKA how many nicknames you got, bro?

[B]

Way too many. There are too many. I've always been a nickname guy. People always give me tons.

[A]

Coming to you from Lake Point church in Dallas, Texas. And today we're going to be talking about Matthew 21, what Christians get wrong about politics and power. And we're going to be talking about the strangest passage in the Bible and answer one of the most mysterious questions people ask about the Bible. Who are the Nephilim?

[B]

Top two or three questions I get. It's like, why does a good God allow bad things to happen? You know, what about the Trinity? And oh yeah, who in the world. The Nephilim and the Nephilim.

[A]

That's how the order usually goes.

[B]

Yeah, usually.

[A]

Hey, where is Pastor Josh?

[B]

I think. Didn't he go to, like, his favorite place on Earth, Disney World or something like that?

[A]

Is that his favorite place on Earth?

[B]

No, it's really not. I'm just ribbing him a little bit right now since he's not on with us. I think he went To a fun place, though, with his family this week.

[A]

Amen. Pastor Josh is having a great time right now.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

He just sent me a photo of him and Shrek in Hudson.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so, you know, he preached on the Sabbath, and then he takes a week off. That's a man who practices what he

[B]

preaches, I was about to say. That's right. He practices what he preaches. Took a full week off. I think he went down to univers or something like that. And he's been. He's been putting pictures out all week, man. The time of his life.

[A]

We have a little holy jealousy right now.

[B]

Yes, we do.

[A]

Hey, speaking of Pastor Josh, bro, did you see. Did you see those, like, videos going viral right now? Like. Like, all these, like, burger CEOs. You know what I'm talking about?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Making fun of. I think it was McDonald's CEO who. Yeah.

[A]

So if you haven't seen it, we basically, you know, there's a. Like, a McDonald's CEO started doing this trend where he's, like, filming himself, like, trying, like, a McDonald's bur. And then apparently, like, he went viral. And then all the CEOs of all the burger joints are basically doing the same thing. So it's funny because if you haven't seen it, this is a real brief clip. Check it out.

[B]

And of course, some lettuce.

[A]

So.

[B]

Oh, there's so much going on with this. First of all, let's try to get this thing. I don't even know how to attack it. Got so much to it.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

It looks like he's got a lot of spinach on.

[A]

Attacking burgers coming out.

[B]

All right. The moment of truth. That is so good.

[A]

That's hilarious. Okay, you can stop it there, bro. When I saw this, I'm like. And, you know, it went super viral. I'm like, hey, we did this first with Pastor Josh.

[B]

Yes. Like.

[A]

Like a month ago. And so we have evidence. Before it went viral, Trinity played the evidence. This is literally a month ago.

[B]

And take a bro. If you guys do. If you guys. I can. I already know this. You're feeling around it. All right, Take a bite. Like, he cheated a little bit right there. Is there anything for real?

[A]

There's no point on it. That's a real burger.

[B]

Like, mustard.

[A]

That's a real burger.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

What is on?

[B]

Is there anything on this?

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

And just to reiterate for people, we did not ambush him. That was not setting him up, because we were for context. For those who haven't Seen it. We. He thinks Whataburger is the best. You're more of an in and out guy. And at the time, I was more like, I think they're pretty much the same. So we did a.

[A]

Which I disagree, but go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I might revise my opinion for the record. And. And so we gave him this. But unfortunately, Whataburger, his favorite place, forgot to put the cheese on there. And so I think the next thing he says is, I, this is the worst thing I've tasted since I was 4.

[A]

Did they forget or is this just how they give their burgers? I don't know.

[B]

I've heard that it was a very common Whataburger experience for them to forget to put something on.

[A]

I know, man. Well, here's what I want to do. Let's train. Let's put. So we got, you know, the McDonald's CEO, and then we have Pastor Josh on the other side. My question for this week's giveaway, Paul, is who did it better? So we want to give away some hats. And so go ahead and comment if you're on YouTube or Spotify, who did it better? McDonald's CEO or Pastor Josh? And we will give away some hats.

[B]

Not to leave the audience, but who would you say?

[A]

I think Pastor Josh did it better.

[B]

He was the og. He beat everybody.

[A]

That's right. He started it. I'm just started it.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

Man. Hey, I like your shirt, by the way.

[B]

Oh, thanks, man. I like your shirt, too.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Matchy Matchy Day says, I love my church, man. I love my church.

[A]

Pastor Paul, what is this shirt about?

[B]

Yeah, every year we do something called free T shirt weekend, which we have coming up, I believe, this next weekend. And the idea of it is that we just want to give people a very easy way for them to share their faith and to invite other people to church. And so we literally will give away, I think, over 20,000 or something like that, T shirts in a weekend. And it's just a way to say, hey, man, would everybody wear this shirt?

[A]

Now?

[B]

It's a great thing to wear in general because then people are like, oh, like, who's your church? And what's your church about? But then also it's a great thing to wear in the weeks leading up to Easter, which is just if there is a time when you're going to invite people, people to church, a couple great times of years, Christmas and Easter. And so it's a way just to make it easy in our people, because we know that it's sometimes a hard thing for someone to share their faith. All you gotta do is wear a T shirt and then people ask you about your church and then just simply invite them in. It's that easy.

[A]

That's right, man. So this weekend, this coming weekend, free T shirt weekend at Lake Point. Come hang out. By the way, if you're part of the live free nation and you're ever visiting or you ever come see us, come say hi. Find the first time guest tent. And we got some free merch for you as well. We'd love to say hi. Also, speaking of Lake Point celebrations, recently pastor Josh preached on marriage and he invited those in our church that maybe are living as if they're married but are not married to take that step of obedience and get married. Bro, we had a huge celebration. We had over 52 couples take that next step of obedience and faith in marriage and we have a big party, big celebration. We got some photos here. Trinity, bro. Look at that.

[B]

Look at that.

[A]

That's literally like on stage. Lake Point. I love how many cowboy hats we

[B]

have, by the way. I was counting them the first time I saw the picture. I was counting them in the background.

[A]

Amazing. Celebr. And I think we had another photo over here. That's amazing. Quick story, because I love this so much. This is the story of Brendan and Ashley. They met in May 2021, which, by the way, their first date was actually a Sunday service at Lake Point. Come on, let's go. Brendan proposed in February 2022, but they didn't set a date. They had gone through significant hurt and betrayal in their previous marriages. They got connected to Lake Point and realized, hey, we need community, we need support. They attended re engaged and learned about how to handle a Christian marriage. They jumped into regen, started healing. They were convicted that they needed to be married. A marriage covenant. Last year, they started the process to get married and they actually set a date for May 22nd. But then, oh, wait. On marriage weekend, they felt a strong conviction to not wait. And so they said, man, we need to do this now. They acted fast. They got married at Lake Point. Here's the photo. Brennan and Ashley. Congratulations, bro.

[B]

That's so awesome.

[A]

That is amazing. That's right.

[B]

Well, now I just, I just love that story. And then so many others. So Steve Harden, who is in the first picture, he's. He's on my team and he actually got to officiate all of them at one time and then got carpal tunnel after from liter signing. Like all the certificates he had to sign him. Also had to give him an ice pack for his hand. But he was just telling me so many stories that came out of that night. And just the vibe, because, like, people coming in, they all knew if they were there, that there was some kind of story of brokenness or disobedience in their life. And yet what they all were talking about when these people and then their families were coming in is that they felt so, like, welcomed.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And not judged. And it was a place where they were celebrated for their step of obedience now, and the new story that was God was riding their lives together. And even just things like, oh, like, we could have never afforded this wedding cake and this photography. And it's like. It's actually a beautiful example of why I love my church and why you love your church.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

It's like the church stepping in and not judging me to be in a place of restoration and second chances. And even just, like, I'd encourage you if you are part of Live Free Nation and you're not around the Dallas area we're at. Maybe you're listening in San Diego or Minneapolis or all the.

[A]

Ohio.

[B]

Ohio. I spent nine years in Ohio, man.

[A]

You did what?

[B]

Yeah, nine years in Cincinnati, Ohio.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I don't know much about Ohio, I'm not going to lie. It's like one of those states there's

[B]

a few good pockets with a lot of nothingness in, I guess.

[A]

I know LeBron James came from there, right? Did he come from there?

[B]

Sorry, we don't. LeBron's a touchy subject with me.

[A]

We gotta be careful.

[B]

We're gonna get into that conversation.

[A]

But. Yeah, I know he traded his talents, but.

[B]

Go ahead, LeBron.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

LeBron was there. But anyways, where was I even going with that?

[A]

Carlos, you were saying that if somebody from the Liver Nation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So if you're from those places, let me just encourage that. Love that you're listening. Love that you're part of the conversation and getting to dive into the word together, talk about things that are happening in our world and how to see it from a biblical lens. But, like, the best thing happening on planet Earth is the local church.

[A]

That's right, Matt.

[B]

Like, one time I heard someone say that the church is the hope of the world. I'd actually like to modify that to the local church is the hope of the world. And so if you're not a part of a local church, I encourage you. In almost every city and town, there is a Bible believing, life giving Church, go and plug into one. And by all means, while you're doing that, continue to tune in and listen to us. But one of our biggest encouragement is wherever you're at, plug into a local church. There's nothing like it at on Earth, man.

[A]

Bro, that's really good. Speaking of discipleship, to find our daily Bible reading plan, plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release of the weekly live free podcast, plus the discipleship guide to join with your group in your local church, you can download the Lakepoint app, text the word app to 20411, or go to Apple or Google Play store. Okay, man. You ready to talk about the sermon?

[B]

Yeah. All right. Can I ask you a question?

[A]

Oh, go ahead. Okay.

[B]

I mean, you didn't preach it, but I'll ask it to.

[A]

Oh, please. Okay, I'll allow it.

[B]

Thank you. Sorry, I never get over that question.

[A]

I don't know what you're going to do right now.

[B]

What didn't make it into the sermon?

[A]

Okay, great. Well, first of all, Pastor Mike preached an amazing sermon.

[B]

Yes, he did.

[A]

So I'm not sure what did you make it through the sermon, but here's what I do know. Pastor Mike preached an incredible sermon. So you can go find actually on our YouTube channel. And basically the whole sermon is the Matthew 21, where basically Jesus is walking towards Jerusalem. And the whole point was Jesus deliberately chose the road to the cross instead of becoming the political king the crowd wanted. And yet. But at the same time, Jesus did come in as king, fulfilling the prophecy in Zechariah. Zechariah. Zechariah.

[B]

Zechariah.

[A]

It's okay. I can just say I speak multiple languages. And so, Paul, what stood out from the text?

[B]

Oh, yeah, so many good nuggets here. One of my favorite things. Oh, it's so many good stuff. I mean, the fulfilled prophecy even. I mean that this prophecy that was made, that the king, the Messiah, would come in riding on a donkey, happened hundreds of years. And so Jesus comes in and he is. Is that king. And later in the text in the Old Testament, it says that his dominion would be from sea to sea, that his dominion would be vast. Love that. But one of my favorite things is something that is easy to miss if you weren't aware of the culture at this time, is that we often call this the triumphal entry. That Jesus enters into the city of Jerusalem triumphantly. A week later, he's crucified. But this was his triumphal entry as king. He was that guy. But there is actually what most people don't know. Two triumphal entries. Two triumphal entries at the same time or around the same time is Jesus would have come in from one side of the city, but then another guy from the other side. So I actually think we have a map of Jerusalem at this time that we can bring up to kind of give some context. So right here we have a depiction of Jerusalem in the first century. Jesus would have come in from the east side. So if you're looking at the picture on video, that would have been from the right, from the Mount of Olives area. So he comes in on the east side, and so he comes in riding on a donkey. Humble people were appraising him as king and the Messiah, but still more of a humble entry on the opposite side of the city around that same time and same day, Pilate would have come in, but he would didn't come in riding on a donkey, he came in riding on a horse with a huge garrison of troops. Reason why is because at that time they would have been. Had the Passover was coming up, and so hundreds and thousands of Jewish people would have been coming in. And there's always this threat, since Rome was the political occupier of the city, that maybe when all these people get into the same place at the same time, and, oh, by the way, they're celebrating the Passover, which is when what they celebrated of how God delivered them from their oppressors and from their enemies, that maybe the people were going to start getting some ideas about, hey, why don't we band together? We've got numbers right now, and let's rise up. So Pilate would come in with this huge garrison of troops and saying, do not mess with us right now.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So he came in on a horse, basically as a symbol of power and authority and dominion. And yet on the other side, Jesus comes in from the opposite side of the city, humble, but he is the true king. And rather than actually putting people to death who oppose him, he died for the very people who opposed him on the cross. Jesus says as people were putting him to death, some of the same people who had cheered him coming in, he says, father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing. So there was a triumphal entry, but Jesus is actually juxtaposing the way his kingdom is with the way most worldly kingdoms are.

[A]

That's good, man. Wow. Okay, so two triumphal entries.

[B]

Two triumphal entries, One by Jesus and one by Pilate.

[A]

Did you say at the same time

[B]

or about the same time? It would have Been about approximately the same time that they would have been coming in from different sides.

[A]

Okay. I guess. Is that, Is that in the Bible? If somebody would be like, oh, is that in the Bible? Or like, how do we know that?

[B]

No, that would have been from Jewish historians like Josephus and others who would have recounted that this was a normal thing for the Roman procurator to do at this time.

[A]

That's fascinating.

[B]

Yeah, man, that's amazing. Cool. What about you, man? What's up, guys?

[A]

So, okay, so this is crazy. I've literally read the Bible my whole life and I just learned it this week. Okay, so here's Matthew 21. Jesus is traveling towards Jerusalem and which is basically like a 17 to 19 mile walk. And this was known to be. A lot of people don't know this, but this was supposed to be an extremely dangerous walk. Right. Apparently there are criminals hidden in caves, people would get mugged. And what most people don't know is that this is the same road that Jesus described in the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10. So here is Jesus literally walking on this road. And he already used this road as an illustration. And so the question is, why would he do that? That. And here's why in the Good Samaritan story. Here's what happens. Listen to this. There's a. There's a man who's dying and multiple religious people see him and they don't help him. But then another man comes and he sees this dying man in the middle of this dangerous road, unable to save himself, and he feels compassion for him. So he goes to him, he touches the wounded man, carries him, and he pays a price for his salvation and recovery so that the man can be restored. And then this gracious man leaves this dying man under the good care with a promise of what? That he will return soon. That's literally what happens in the Good Samaritan. Now here is Jesus walking on this same road. And Jesus is traveling towards Jerusalem and encounters not a dying man, but a dying people. And these people are not in a dangerous road, but they are in a dangerous world, cursed by sin. And these dying people are unable to save themselves. And the religious leaders of the time, they will not help them.

[B]

Them.

[A]

But then Jesus comes, he sees the dying people. And Luke 19 tells us that he had compassion for them so much so the Bible says literally that he cries for them and so he goes to them. Jesus pays the ultimate price for their salvation and recovery so that the dying people who put their trust in him are saved, rescued and restored. And listen, I love this. He leaves them on this earth for now under the good care of the Holy Spirit with a promise that he will return soon.

[B]

Come on, man.

[A]

The parable of the Good Samaritan ultimately points to the gospel of the good Savior. His name is Jesus, bro.

[B]

So good, man.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

It's such an easy thing to overlook. And don't get me wrong, like the parable of the Good Samaritan, for sure it should teach us to love people who are in her neighbors and things like that. But sometimes what people miss is. And Jesus showed that way. He modeled it for us. I mean, even like first John says we love others because he first loved us. And he showed us this by dying on the cross for us.

[A]

In fact, the parable of the Good Samaritan, literally, Jesus ends it by saying, now go and do likewise.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Little did people know Jesus was going to go first.

[B]

Exactly. And even, like you see, just echoes of this throughout the Gospels where he says, Jesus says to his disciples, as I have loved you so, now you go and love others.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so any command that Jesus gives us, he leads the way and shows us this, but ultimately first laying down his life for us. And I think the whole sermon was just a good reminder because I know in a minute going to get into just some mistakes that people make about politics. Because we have to remember that while Jesus did come in primarily to die, he also says that he was a king and he was the king of kings.

[A]

I want to ask you about that.

[B]

Yeah, and we'll get to that in just a minute. But it is just such a good reminder. That's what I loved about what Mike preached, is that, hey, the primary mission of Jesus both then and now, is to save souls, is that, man, we have each of us sinned. We've fallen short of the glory of God. Romans tells us, and because of that, we deserve judgment from God. And yet the gospel is that Jesus went to the cross to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. I think I said this a few weeks ago, that on the cross God did to Jesus what he should have done to us because of what we've done to him, and yet he did that to save us. That's the primary thing. And it's so easy to miss. So easy to miss. In our days where we, I think all of us have expectations of Jesus. We have things that we want from Jesus, but it might not be what we most need from Jesus. And so it's just a reminder that with Jesus biggest goal was to save us from our sins, save us from the penalty for sins. Yeah, man, it starts there, it starts there, it continues.

[A]

We're going to talk about this in a little bit. Okay, so let me ask you this. So the Context of Matthew 21 Again, for, for people that maybe are not as familiar. The Jewish people were under an oppressed, an oppressive Roman empire, basically. In fact, Jewish people had had a history of being under the oppression of multiple empires. We got, they were under the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and now they're under Rome. And so there were scriptures and prophecies basically expecting a figure, a somebody that would come in and restore Israel's kingdom and overthrow any political powers and bring political freedom for Israel. And so when people saw Jesus, they thought, man, this is him, this is the person. And so we're excited. Finally the time has come. And so, and so Jesus was actually on his way to the cross. What they didn't know is like you said, man, his purpose was higher fire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, and yet at the same time, Jesus came in as king, that, that entry was a kingly entry. And so I think when people hear that story today, let's get really practical here. Now, when people hear that story, I think it confuses some people because people think, well, yeah, I guess he, he did come not to be a, quote unquote, a political figure to restore Israel. He, he came to die for our sins, but at the same time he did come as king. And so just as we try to figure out what does it mean, I think it confuses some people. So let me just, just let me set up the conversation this way. So, Paul, there are two mistakes, well meaning, but misguided Christians make in how they engage with politics. And I'll explain why both are wrong. And if you're not careful, your heart will naturally drift towards one or the other. And so on one hand, here, here's what I would say. On one hand, some people inadvertently deify politics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the more secularized our culture becomes, religion doesn't just quote, unquote, go away way. It actually, it just gets replaced by politics. And so this is why some people today will say things like, man, don't ever talk about politics and religion. You know why? Because for many, those two have become the same thing. And so this is why, you know, and, and by the way, many have said this before. This is why, when, this is why this happens. When you deify politics. Candidates are perceived as saviors. Rallies feel like worship services, campaigning feels like evangelism. And elections feel like salvation or damnation. And when you deify something and it lets you down and it fails you, you're left angry, miserable, and hopeless. And honestly, like, if you just look around like, that's literally our culture today, there's a sense of desperation and hopelessness, and people are just disillusioned with the political era right now. And so that's what happens when you deify politics. And so what you. By the way, you also see this in Scripture. In 1st Samuel 8, when Israel asks Samuel for a king, they think, man, if only we had the right leader, if we had the right political leadership, then we will solve all our problems. And they place their ultimate hope in this one person. And they asked Samuel for a king. And this is what God tells Samuel. They said, they have not rejected you, they've rejected me from being king over them. And obviously it does not go well for them. Now, that's one extreme. The other extreme is not to deify politics, it is to deny politics as if it had nothing to do with your Christianity. And so, bro, by the way, when you read the Bible, it is undeniable. Politics is all over the Bible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Politics at the core is about organizing people to live together in a society. Christians care deeply about politics because. Christians care deeply about people. Because God cares deeply about people.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so this is why, like, literally, you go through the Bible, you have. We have whole books of the Bible called Judges and Kings. Those are political terms. Prophet after prophet in the Bible, they confront kings and rulers on whether they act in accordance to the standard that God has set for them. First and Second Chronicles are basically an evaluation of political authorities. This was a good king, this was a bad king. This is a mediocre king. This one's not so much. Jesus taught us to pray, Let your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. Romans 13 says government is God's idea. The Bible literally commands Christians to pray for political leaders and those in authority, like in First Timothy 2. By the way, that's not a suggestion. We are called to pray for our political leaders.

[B]

Even the ones you don't like.

[A]

Even the. Exactly. Especially the ones probably you want. That's right. And so when. And so we don't. We don't want to deify politics, but at the same time, we don't want to deny politics. Jesus said in Matthew 28, all authority, all authority in heaven, all authority on earth is given to me. Jesus also said, you are the light of the world.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so When Christians speak up and when we engage in politics, we do so with Revelation chapter 11:15 in mind. That says that history ends with Christ ruling the nation. So we're talking about a king. Jesus is king. He is ruling over the nations. Why? Because Jesus is either Lord of all or he's not Lord of all.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Or sorry, he is either Lord of all or he is not Lord at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yep.

[A]

And so those are two places we don't want to go. Now let's make this super practical. Pastor Paul, what are some practical watch outs? Let's talk about real life here.

[B]

Yeah, actually, before, before I get there, I want to just backtrack for one second. It's like a few things to point out. In addition to some of the people you pointed out, people miss this. Like in the New Testament, John the Baptist called out authorities. Like, that's actually how he got in trouble and eventually got beheaded. Was he called out the ruler at the time and he said, hey, you're not living the way God would have you live. And that got him in trouble. And so I think there's this idea sometimes that like, oh, we can only like going back while we're bringing this up as well. Is like, man, Pastor Mike preached so well. And it is the primary thing is about making disciples, but we don't want people to swing to the opposite. Like you're talking about the two failures I like to think of as two ditches. Like one ditch on one side is to think, oh, this is just about politics. Like, the way to make the most good is only to focus on politics. And yet we leave out the whole idea of the Great Commission. But no, we first are called to make disciples because that's what Jesus told us to do and his ultimate mission was to save us from our sins. Conversely, though, we don't want people then to go into the other side, the other ditch, and then to make it not about politics at all. So it's like, don't make it all about that and don't make it none about that as well. And so even just a few suggestions before I go to some watch outs. Hey, if your ditch is more that you make politics, the biggest thing, like if you deify it and you're a Christian and all you ever do is post about politics, that's what you always talk about. I'll just give you this simple encouragement is before you're allowed to post about politics again, you have to share your faith with at least one person or help one person take a Meaningful step

[A]

towards Jesus in real life or on social media?

[B]

In real life. I was literally about to give that qualification. Can't be social media. Can't be for sure.

[A]

If you want to do that, don't hate on social media, Paul.

[B]

I'm not going to hate on it. Do that too. But I'm understanding, like, if that's your ditch, if your ditch is more the deification of politics, that's good. I'd say, hey, a good thing for you would be if you're talking about politics all the time, go back and let's make the main thing the main thing and go share your faith with someone in a personal way. Invite them to church, do something like that. I think that's just a good way to get you out of the ditch. Conversely, you don't want to go all the way into Post a Bible verse.

[A]

Yes, hey, once in a while, man. Post a good Bible verse.

[B]

Yeah, post a good Bible verse. But don't have it be like, post

[A]

a live free podcast episode. That's what you need to do.

[B]

That's right. But don't have it be like a really a verse that's meant as a jab against whoever. Don't like political. That's right.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Share your faith in a real way. I think that's just maybe a good way to kind of keep us in check so that we don't overly deify it.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

And make it the main thing. Conversely, I think when people maybe go the other ditch, which is they don't make it a thing at all, they, to your words, deny politics. I think the problem here is that we misunderstand what discipleship is and what politics are. So actually going to the reverse of that politics, you kind of hit on it, but I'll give a different definition here. Politics is simply the organization and administration of power for just ends and the common good. That's all it is. It's how do you organize and administrate power for the just ends of the people in society and for the common good of a people in a society. So when I hear people say stuff like, oh man, politics doesn't belong in church. You shouldn't be preaching about politics, just preach the gospel. What I hear them actually saying is, don't tell me how to love my neighbor very well, because one of the practical ways, and that's something, by the way we're commanded to do, we're called to love our neighbors. I mean, hello, that's the parable of the good Samaritan called to love our neighbors. Part of how we do that, that is politics. It's how we love our neighbors in a systematic, organized way and promote just ends for them. That's all that politics is. So I'd say, hey, if we understand that's what it is, and that's a big deal. Part of why we should want to be involved in politics and bring the kingdom of God to bear on them is because we want to love our society and our neighbors. Well, I think the other problem is that we misunderstand what discipleship is, because a lot of people say, oh, don't preach politics. Don't talk about politics. Just disciple. People just preach the gospel. But that sees discipleship in a relationship with Jesus almost like as one hat of many that you wear. I actually brought a bunch of hats with me that are over here in the background. And a lot of times, I think how people approach life even before the relationship Jesus is they've got all these different hats that they wear. So I was like, okay, it's like, I'm a dad, or, you know, I'm a dad or I'm a husband. I've got my family life kind of thing. Oh, but then I've got another hat that I put on whenever I go to work, and I've got to kind of do my work thing. Oh, I've got some hobbies that I do and so on and so forth. And I've got this hat that I wear when I'm doing that. We're wearing all these different hats. And then a lot of people, they think, oh, when I become a disciple of Jesus, that's now another hat that I wear. It's like, all right, I've got the Jesus hat. I got the discipleship hat on, and that's what I do. So usually for a lot of people,

[A]

it's my Sunday hat.

[B]

Yeah, it's my Sunday hat. The sum total of my Jesus hat and of being a disciple is, okay, this is what I wear when I go to church or when I'm reading my Bible, or when I'm praying, by the way, all good things and all necessary things. But that's actually not what discipleship is. And that's not what a relationship with Jesus is. Actually. Really. What it is is the idea of, hey, hey. When I begin a relationship with Jesus, I really just put on a hat that I wear all the time.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

He's laughing because of the hat that I'm wearing. I thought it'd be a nice little Easter egg For in light of the video we showed earlier, if you're only

[A]

listening, Paul is wearing an In N Out Burger hat. Go ahead.

[B]

It just happened to be on the bottom. I'm not intentionally equating it with Jesus. I'm not. It just happened to be on the bottom. But anyway, anyways, I'll allow it. Go ahead. Thank you. Becoming a disciple and man is really the idea of like, hey, this is now the hat that I'm wearing all the time. When I am with my family, when I'm at my job, when I'm doing my hobbies, when I'm taking my Sabbath, which we talked about last week, it's like I'm walking to every situation trying to say, hey, how do I live as a disciple of Jesus in this area of my life? And how do I see his kingdom come and his will be done on earth as it is in heaven? Now, here's the thing with that. That means that basically what I'm saying is Jesus, and you said this earlier, he is lord over every square inch of my life and over every square inch of creation. So then what that means is when we come into politics, a Christian should ask, how should I live as a disciple in the nation that I'm in when I am called upon to use my influence and use my vote? We live in a society where I get to elect the leaders of our nation. By the way, thank God that we live in that sound of a society.

[A]

Praise God.

[B]

And so what we had to think of, even historically in the church. Church is that man, people were going out making disciples. Matthew 28, they're going out making disciples. But at some point, guess what happened? An emperor became a disciple of Jesus, Constantine. And all of a sudden he started to have to ask, well, wait a second, I am an emperor, obviously. And that was not a democracy. But he's wielding power and he's wielding influence. He's like, well, hey, I'm a disciple of Jesus. How would Jesus have me govern? How would he have me be the emperor? And so he started actually passing laws. For example, going off of the Sabbath. Last week, he was the first one to pass the Sabbath, was Constantine saying that Sunday should be a day of rest. And so, because the thing is, he's going to impose some kind of a moral value system. And since he's a disciple, he says, well, hey, I want to do. Well, guess what? What Jesus would have me do.

[A]

Yeah. So he was a Christian in politics, and he instituted a law around Sabbath, around Sabbath.

[B]

And that's just one of Many. It's just an example where what he did is he's like, hey, I'm the emperor. And obviously he exerted total authority, but he said, hey, I'm a disciple of Jesus now. Which means, how would he have me be? Be an emperor now, fast forward now. That was the beginning. Now fast forward 1400 years later to America. We live in a society where we're not all emperors, but we all do have a vote and we do have a voice. And so Christians should be asking, how would Jesus have me use my vote? How would he have me lean into politics? Because guess what? Politics and government is not the one exception to the place where he is Lord over. He is lord over every square inch, not just of my life, but also our society, and that includes the politics and the government in it, kind of went off. That whole thing is like, I think when people just want to dismiss politics altogether, they're misunderstanding what politics are and what discipleship is. Actually, if you're a good disciple, you will be asking, how can I live out my faith in politics as I'm voting? And how can I influence my nation so that we can love our neighbors? Well, that's great. All right. That being said, yeah, I think it'd be good maybe as we're doing that, though, I got so many hats now on the table, man, I'm just going to throw, throw these on the ground so I don't get distracted from them. Yeah, I just wrote down some watch outs. Some like things of, hey, here's some things to watch out for, as you are a disciple of Jesus and you're trying to interact with politics and government and all that kind of stuff right now. Here's some things to watch out both for in others, but then also in for yourself so that you're not deceived and gaslit into either not being involved in politics or into supporting something God would not have you support, but then also just some things in your own heart to watch out for. I'm going to start with some things to watch out for and others. Number one, watch out for people who reference Jesus. They use Christian buzzwords and maybe vaguely refer to the Bible, but they advocate for things that are actually unbiblical. So they may refer to the Bible, they'll refer to Jesus, but they will then advocate for things that Jesus and the Bible do not like.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm sure you're not thinking about anybody in particular.

[B]

No, no, no one does this. No one on either side of the aisle does this.

[A]

We haven't heard about this in a bit.

[B]

No. I think, though, just for recency's sake, we got to give at least an example to make this practical for people. So we addressed this guy last week and we're going to address him, I'm sure, plenty in the coming months. So I won't belabor this, but I do think you see a prominent of this right now in James Tallarico.

[A]

Never heard of him.

[B]

Guy I know, man. It's like he's on social media all the time.

[A]

All the time. He kind of is right now.

[B]

Right now. He's a big fan right now. But what's interesting is that I'm actually seeing people. I've talked to multiple people this week, not just here, but people from Tennessee and all over the place in the country who they're friends with people there and people who love Jesus, love his Word, but they're like, oh, man, this guy is great. He talks about Jesus and he kind of vaguely quotes the Bible and in Bible verses, not realizing that the very things he advocates for, Jesus hates and the Bible speaks against. So plenty of examples I could give. I'm not going to give. I want to give one. We actually showed a clip of this video or started to last week. But I think it's important because what will often happen is they will people like Talarico will reference Jesus or reference the Bible verse, hoping that you then don't go investigate and look further into it. They're just hoping that you're going to assume, hey, I referenced Jesus, I used some Christian terms. And so now you're going to think I'm team Jesus. You should support me in everything that I'm speaking for and everything that I'm speaking against, hoping that you won't go double check. So let me give an example. We actually have the video where he was given a sermon and we showed again a clip of this. But I think it's really important to highlight it again in the Gospel of Thomas, which was later omitted from the Bible. Let's pause for just one second. Said this last week, but just as a reminder for people who didn't see it, Gospel of Thomas was not omitted from the Bible because it was never the. There. There was never in the Bible. Never in the Bible. In the early few, first few centuries, you had collections and lists of different books that they consider canonical or inspired by God. Thomas was in none of them. It was written literally 150 to 200 years after the time of Jesus, not written by the apostle Thomas whatsoever. It's known as a form of Gnosticism, which was a false teaching. And so what Gnosticism would do is it would reference Jesus and it would reference some of the language, but it was advocating for things that none of his apostles would have recognized as the actual teach. So, like, already right here he's saying this, hoping that your average person in that room or that's watching this isn't going to go look it up. They're going like, oh, of course it was omitted from the Bible, but this is what Jesus actually said.

[A]

Well, it's a church and like, he's in front speaking and preaching.

[B]

And so what he's going to do now, he just vaguely referenced that, hoping you don't go do your homework. And now he is going to apparently quote what Jesus said. Although, just for again, for reminder, Jesus never actually said this. This is a false gospel. This isn't true, but he's going to pretend it is. But I think this is where it's important. It shows what people sometimes, sometimes do. Let's keep playing by church officials. The Gospel of Thomas quotes Jesus as saying, when you make the male and female one in the same, when the male is not male, when the female is not female, then you will enter the kingdom of God. Did you ever hear of a show named Maury Povich or a guy named Maury Povich? He had like those daytime TV shows and he became known for kind of this bit where people would say stuff, okay, I'm not the father, or I'm not this, or I didn't do that. And they would have him take a lie detector test. And what he became famous for is, you said this. That's a lie. That's pretty much what I thought of when I saw this clip. Because literally, the Gospel of Thomas does not say what he just said. It says, here's what happens in the Gospel of Thomas. So Peter in the Gospel of Thomas comes to him and he says, let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. So he thinks women are less than Peter in this text thinks women are less than they're evil. Because in this form of Gnosticism, women were not as good as men. They were evil. Only men were worthy of the kingdom of heaven. And then here's Jesus's response. He doesn't say what James Talarico just said. Here's what he says. I myself shall lead her in order to make her male. For every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven. Okay, so if I'm hanging out with James Tall Rico and we're hanging out. Maybe one day we will. I would just love to ask him. I'm like, hey, there's. To me, there's only seems two options here. Either one, you are incredibly ignorant in this moment and you're just referencing someone else someone had told you. But you should probably apologize to women because you basically just said they're in fear and evil compared to men. Probably apologize. But it more seems like the second option, which is you straight up lied to make a point. He's trying to say, hey, there's no distinction between men and women. Couldn't go to the actual Bible and find that. So he went to a false gospel, a heretical gospel, and even then he didn't quote it actually is he twisted it because again, I'm just showing this as an example. What Talarico and so many others do, they'll vaguely reference Jesus, they'll vaguely reference a Bible book, in this case a false one, hoping you don't go check it out. So I'm just telling people on this one, you need to watch out for it. Do your homework. Don't immediately say, think that just because someone references the name of Jesus that they're actually on Team Jesus.

[A]

Yeah, and I think I would say, you know, because when it comes to some politicians like this, it seems like some people will look at somebody like this and be like, well, I'm not, I'm not sure that I agree with what he's saying. But he's so nice.

[B]

He's so nice.

[A]

He's so nice. And so man. I would also say, just to add to what you're saying, Paul, niceness is not a Christian virtue. In fact, the Bible never commands Christians to be quote, unquote nice. It commands Christians to be so much more than that. To be nice today in our culture generally means to be pleasant, polite, to be agreeable, to try not to offend people. And there is a superficialness to how our culture defines nice. Because if you pay attention, like you said, you can be nice and you can be manipulative. You can be nice and you can be irresponsible and unloving. You can can be perceived as nice and be dangerous. In fact, Jesus has a term for this. He calls people like this wolf in sheep's clothing, that on the outside they are, they seem like they're nice. They seem like they're tender and gentle, but inside they're actually a wolf, they're dangerous. And so to add on to what you said, be careful not to judge people. Primarily, if somebody seems to be Nice. And I would say this, there is this general idea today that Christians are just supposed to be quite unquote nice. And I would say to that, I would say Christians are supposed to be Christlike.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to be Christlike is to demonstrate the fruit of the spirit to be, to show love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control and kindness. And that right there is a much higher bar. Because unlike being simply nice, to be kind is to speak the truth in love. To be kind is to be bold and courageous and to confront what is evil. And God is the one that defines what is true and what is evil and what is good. And so that's why you look at Jesus. And he was compassionate and he was tender and the most loving person who ever walked on earth. And at the same time, he also did things like calling Herod a fox, which some would say that would be an insult. Jesus rebuked Pharisees. He called them whitewashed tombs and brood of vipers. And he flipped tables and spoke hard truth. And so. And he got angry. And so some would say, man, he's not being revived. Really nice, maybe, but he was being loving, righteous and holy. And so again, Christians are not called to be nice at the expense of truth, accountability, holiness and love.

[B]

That's right. That's exactly right. So watch out for that. Another thing to watch out for, people who say things like, if you're a Christian, you must, or you have to, or if you're a Christian, you can't do this thing. And so I actually got an example. This is from Shane Claiborne, something he posted on X, I will forever call it Twitter. And so the context that we're about to, I'm about to read is that he's really referencing the war in Iran. And so he's against the war in Iran, against really any war. And this is his reasoning. He says no one kills with more passion than someone who believes that God is on their side. I'm going to actually stop before I get into the main thing. That is probably one of the more really bad, ignorant historical statements I've ever heard or at least heard recently. Like if we just took the 20th century and I took Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot in Cambodia and added up all their deaths. It's literally between 50 and 70 million people that killed. And they were atheists regimes vastly dwarfing any of the Crusades, by the way. Most of them were actually just wars. Like vastly outnumbering someone who said no one kills with more passion. Like, dude, that is Literally one of the more historically ignorant things I've heard in a long time. So different subject for another time, but I can't let that one go.

[A]

All right.

[B]

He then says, every major religion has been distorted by folks who want to justify their hatred and camouflage their bigotry. That actually is true. A lot of them have done that, including Christians. Christians are not exempt. People who claim to be Christians are promoting unimaginable violence right now. Listen to kind of what he just said. He's like, hey, people who claim to be Christians. And he's kind of setting this up to say, hey, if you're a Christian, you cannot be for the war in Iran. It is evil, it is wicked. It is an offense to God. And then he goes in and he later starts saying, jesus is the Prince of Peace. He blessed the peacemakers and committed us all to love our enemies, and then says, God is love. And by the way, Jesus did do all those things. But we'll get to that in a second. What this shows is kind of this idea of like, hey, this is a tactic. Like, if you're a Christian, Christian, you have to do this or you can't do that. Other versions of this would be like, hey, if you're a Christian, you have to welcome every single immigrant that wants to come in without acceptance, no matter the harm it does to the actual nation or anything. You have to let them in, because that's what Jesus would have you do. You have to watch out for that. So just using this as an example, we could do a whole podcast on war and how there is just war. But even just let me just point out a few things. Like, number one, he's advocating for something that there's actually been huge differences across the history of Christianity. There have been some people throughout Christian history, especially in the first hundred years before actually Christians held any kind of political power, where some Christians were pacifist, for sure, but then there's others, especially starting with Augustine, who literally created something called the just war theory. They're saying, while Christians should not rush into war, there's actually some situations where Christians should go to war, as long as it's for a just cause. So one thing here is that there's actually a huge disagreement on, but yet he's acting like, if you're a Christian, there's only one thing and one attitude you can't have. And then even with this, like, just think of this as an example, like, don't be wrong. We should. We. War is not going to be in heaven one day. There is going to be peace. But in the meantime, we live in a fallen world where there are evil people who do evil things. And sometimes that requires in war, but in other places, people willing to step in and if necessary sometimes use violent means to stop evil people. So let's just take it off war. For example, I would want to ask Shane. Shane, so you're telling me that if you heard one of your neighbors suffering a home invasion and they're coming in and robbing them, but they're also beating them and going to kill them, you're not going to do anything. You're just going to sit there because, hey, Jesus would have his love. And if I go use physical violence to stop the person, that's an unloving thing to do.

[A]

Turn the other cheek.

[B]

Turn the other cheek? No, of course not. In that moment you're called to, yes, to love everybody, but in that moment you're actually called to protect the innocent and to love them by stopping the evil person to love your family. Yeah. And so in this case, while obviously it's not a perfect one to mund, there is something here. Like in Iran they were killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians. And us just quoting turn the other cheek would not have stopped them. It would not have. There are times when war will not be in the kingdom of heaven. It is here now to stop evil people from doing evil things. Romans 13, you referenced it earlier, talks about how God gave us governments to wield the sword.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And as, listen, as Christians, we're in a society now, in the early few centuries they were pac pacifists because guess what? They weren't having to administrate whole nations. But now as Christians, we do, and part of what we do on this side of heaven and is administer justice and bring justice to people who are being oppressed and to those who can't fight for themselves.

[A]

That's really helpful, Paul. So you're basically saying, you know, watch out for somebody that says, hey, if you're a Christian, you need to blank. And then they just give their own thing or position. But I would say, so somebody might be hearing that and be like, what? Wait a minute. But Paul, but you're, you're doing the same thing. You're, you're saying, well, I believe the Bible. Therefore anybody that doesn't agree with this from the Bible, if you're, you know, you can't believe in it if you're not a Christian, like, what would you say to that object?

[B]

It's like not to bring him up again. This is literally what Talarico and others do. It's like, well, wait a second, you can't impose your values about abortion or about unsame sex marriage and stuff like that on us.

[A]

Yeah, because people will say you can't be a Christian and support abortion, so you're doing the same thing.

[B]

Exactly. So my response that would be, this is the reason I brought up the fact that Christians have disagreed on war for thousands of years. There are some issues that are open handed issues where Christians for thousands of years have disagreed on how the Bible would have us act and approach these issues. There's other issues though that are closed handed where Christians for thousands of years have all believed the exact same thing. So for example, on abortion we did, I think it was back in the fall, we did a whole podcast going in response to I think Tallaharico's interview. But again, it's not just him, it's others. And we addressed this issue. And look, literally from the earliest days of Christianity, they spoke against abortion. And consistently up until really about the last 50 to 70 years, every Christian from every major stream of Christianity would have come to the same conclusion. So that's an example of saying, hey, if the Bible has spoken clearly and loudly and if church history has spoken clearly and loudly, then yeah, there is a Christian way to go about something. But on places where there's been differences of opinions, don't try to gaslight people and saying, oh, if you're a Christian, you can't do X, Y and Z when there's been differences of opinion. Too often. Often people will take open handed issues where we can disagree but then turn them into closed handed issues saying hey, we have to agree. Or they'll say, hey, even though these have been closed handed issues that we've all agree on for all time, actually now they're open handed issues that we can agree to disagree. You gotta not mix those up.

[A]

Okay, give me some watch outs for like, because you're talking about watch outs for other people. What about watch outs for like, hey, what about me? Like myself, my heart, like my mind,

[B]

what do you got that's good? I'd actually start with this because for the last few minutes we've been kind of critical. One thing is that I have to watch out for myself is that when I'm talking about others or I'm examining others views, especially doing these watch outs and others, that I need to make sure that I'm talking about them and treating them as if they are created and made in the image of God because They are. It's so easy to begin thinking about people or talking about people in a way that forgets that this is a person who God knitted them together, and there's a mother's womb. Psalm 139 says, that is not just a verse or passage that applies to me and the people I like. That applies to everybody, actually. When I teach on the doctrine of humanity, it's called. When I do this with staff, I'll often put a bunch of pictures after I've taught about the image of God, and I'll start with a picture from Lake Point. So if you're listening to this from another church, just imagine the people in your church gather together and say, hey, every single person in that image is made in the image of God, been crafted by God, and is loved by God. And then I'll say, it's true of every person in this image, and it'll be an image of homelessness, people in the street, and then in every person of this image, and it'll be a transgender person and of every person in this image. And the last one that I love doing last is back when Trump and Biden were running against each other. It's both of them side by side in different rallies, with them in the foreground and their fathers in the background. I said, it's true of every person.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

Both in the foreground, in the background. And then I'll joke and say people are like, oh, no, this is the exception. One of them isn't. And it's like, no, every single person is. So it is totally fine to expose false ideas and false teaching and to oppose people who. Who do it, as I'm also remembering that they're a person made in the image of God, who is loved by God, who God wants to save, who God wants to save. So I just got to make sure and watch that out in myself.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Can I give one more. Awesome, man. I say another big thing is not being able to criticize my own party or candidate. If you can't say one thing that your party or candidate has done wrong or fallen short on, there's really one of three options. They're Jesus, you're brainwashed.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or. And I was gonna go across harsh, but. Or you're being a coward.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So in that moment, they're Jesus because, oh, I guess they're perfect. Well, only perfect one is Jesus, so let me tell you, that's not an option. One is you're brainwashed. You actually think that your party or Your candidate can do no wrong and has got nothing wrong, or you're just too afraid to speak up. And I'll just be honest about this one. Even just like my cars, I'm definitely a conservative person when it comes to obviously my faith, but then for sure, even my politics. Like, I've been really frustrated how our current administration has rolled back so many of our pro life stances that we've built up over the previous decades. And I should be willing to say, hey, that's wrong. Even if I support so much of the other stuff, I need to in those places be able to say, I'm saying, hey, that's wrong. And one thing I would encourage people to look at is kind of a subset of this is I've gotten so frustrated about it is what I call whataboutism. Because the second that my party or my candidate or my personal person does something I don't like, what I'll it was easy for me to do is say, well, what about their person or their party or their candidate? They actually did something even worse. And when we do that, it reminds me of my kids when they were toddlers or little kids. I'm sure this isn't like your kid, but like, no, mine are perfect. Yours are perfect. But mine, like, what mine would do is like, one of them would hit the other one and. Which was wrong. We don't do that in our house. And so when we start to get them in trouble, well, what about them? They called me a name, which, okay, great, we can. But hey, guess what? That doesn't excuse what you do. I didn't actually say this to my kids, but what I wanted to say is own your own crap. Like, own your own stuff. And so I just say, like, if we get to the point where we're not able to call out the failures of the people that we generally support, to your point, we might be accidentally deifying them. We're treating them as if they are God and they don't make a mistake. It's like, no, we can support a general side, but when that side falls short, we should have the courage to speak up and say, hey, we want to hold you to a higher standard because we believe God has called you to it.

[A]

All right, live free nation. Listen up. This is one of our favorite weekends of the year. March 21st and 22nd is free t shirt weekend at Lake Point Church. And yes, we're talking free T shirts for the whole family. All campuses, youth and adult size. All you got to do is just show up and here's why this matters. This isn't about free merch. It's about mission. You put that shirt on and you're representing what God is doing through Lake Point Church. You're showing people you're not ashamed of your faith. And when somebody asks you about it, that's your moment. That's your open door to say, hey, you should come with me to Easter. It's one of the easiest ways to represent Jesus and invite someone to church without it being awkward. This, by the way, is an in person only event and shirts are first come, first serve. So don't roll in late, get there early and grab yours While supplies last March 21st and 22nd free T shirt weekend. Let's wear the mission. Let's invite Courageously. We will see you there. That's good, man. Okay, well, hard gear shift right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, Paul, we did an episode like, I think it was, what, three months ago? Something like that? No, was it more something like that on the Book of Enoch?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And honestly, like, some of us were a little surprised to see the response because, you know, I think it got like 300,000 views on YouTube. YouTube and, you know, thousands more. But then people were asking, hey, but you. You haven't really addressed the Nephilim.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, you know, we're having conversations with friends and some people are like, wait, wait, what's in the Bible? Like, this is. And so I just want to. We're going to talk about this. Probably one of the most mysterious passages in the Bible.

[B]

Y.

[A]

And it's related to the Book of Enoch. But we'll explain here in just a second what exactly we're talking about here. And so let's start with here. We're going to talk about the Nephilim. There's a. There's a Babylon Bee article. This is St. Peter getting tired of answering questions about the Nephilim. I feel you, Peter.

[B]

I do.

[A]

A bunch of dudes in their computers researching nephilim videos on YouTube have a lot of questions.

[B]

Yeah, I. I've thought before about actually making my own T shirt occasionally that says, I don't care who the Nephilim are.

[A]

People ask you that a lot.

[B]

A lot. And it's not. It's not that I don't have opinions, it's just I'm asked so much, we can just cut their conversation. Next time you see it, though, next

[A]

time you see Paul in the lobby, please ask him about the Nephilim. Okay, so here's what we're gonn. I'm Going to. I'm going to read the passage.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because we start with the Bible and then I'm going to ask you what in the world is going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Genesis 6, 4. This is what it says. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterwards, where the sons of God came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them. And these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. We got some photos of what people think the Nephilim could have looked like. This is from the Internet. I. We're just trying to find visual aids. Here's. Here's one. Okay, so that's one. This is like a World War Z. Was it.

[B]

Was it Brad Pitt?

[A]

Brad Pitt, yes.

[B]

They built skyscrapers back.

[A]

That's true. There's buildings. That's right. I don't know where those came from, but it's like a fire. There's another one. This is. That's a CrossFit athlete with. With wings is what that is.

[B]

Taking some creatine and maybe some other substances as well to kind of get that body.

[A]

Yep. And that's, I think, one. And this is. That's the first one I found, actually. This looks like a. What does it look like?

[B]

Feel like. That's something you may see in the COVID book if you take a turn down the wrong a. Out Barnes and Noble.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's like, buy the new 50 Shades book or whatever.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So some awkward stuff.

[A]

We just put so literally, like there's two parts in the Bible where the Bible talks about the Nephilim. I just read one. The other part is in Numbers, chapter 13, verse 33. But then I'm seeing here this visuals. And what the visuals you'll see on Internet is basically like these jacked men

[B]

that look like giants sometimes.

[A]

Giants. That's right. With wings. And some of them are like demonic slash. But. And then they're flirting with like these. These women that are human. And so. Paul.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chad G. Paul C. What is going on? First of all, for people that don't know this is in the Bible. I just read the Bible. What is going on?

[B]

Yeah, this really is one of the top two or three questions that I get. And it is. Because it is probably the strangest section of the entire Bible. And if you're reading the Bible for the first time, you get to it within a few chapters. And so people get to this and they're like, wait a second. The sons of God took human wives, they married and they created this like Nephilim giant race, like, what in the world is going on here? Historically there have been three dominant views. There is a fourth minor view that I actually give first. But what I'm going to do for the major views is I'm going to really say, hey, here's the view is then I'll give pros and cons, like arguments for and arguments against for each one of these. And so I'll even say at the outset people hold very, very strong opinions on this. It's like right up there with your view of the millennium or some of the other things like Calvinism and the Arminianism, it's like right there people are adamant about it, but historically there's been three different streams that people have disagreed on and you can be a faithful, Jesus loving, Bible believing person and hold a different view on. So I just want to put that out there so people don't start taking shots at each other if they disagree with. On this one minor view that actually is held by a good amount of credible scholars today is that the Nephilim aren't related to what happened with the sons of God and the daughters of man. That it's simply that they're a different group of people. That, hey, a theory is like, hey, it says that they were there when the sons of God went into the daughters of man. And so some people would say, hey, they're not actually related. All throughout the book of Genesis and the Old Testament. Sometimes they'll put these like little random bits of stories in there out of nowhere, even in the middle of a genealogy. Some people are like, hey, that's what happened here. And if you go to numbers 13, it actually could support that because the Nephilim in this view were like, hey, these were like simply like a short term for really valiant warriors. And it would make sense of Numbers 13 because one of the pushbacks against the other views is saying, well, wait a second, if they were on the earth at this time, well, how were they on the earth after the flood happened? Because it wiped out everybody but Noah's family. So this view would say, well, hey.

[A]

And you say that because in numbers 33, later they seem to be mentioned,

[B]

it says, hey, these are descendants of these guys. Well, how could they be descendants of Rai? Watch out. So that's a minor view, but I actually think it's a little bit of a credible view. I've at times flirted with it myself. Okay, but three main views that people have and I'll just be honest, I've switched my Views on this multiple times. Multiple times. So if you're not sure, if you're listening to this, you're not sure where you land. Totally cool.

[A]

So this first view, though, you say the Nephilim is something else and it has nothing to do with these sons of God.

[B]

It's definitely a minor, not as widely held view, but.

[A]

So who are they?

[B]

Huh?

[A]

So who are they?

[B]

Oh, it was just kind of a short term slang for these are mighty men, men of renown. These were famous warriors, mighty men of renown. It kind of became a short term. Like these were like the Rambos. Like how Rambo kind of became a short term. Like, I mean, I got that reference that's kind of like that. Have you, have you ever watched Rambo?

[A]

I think I have, but it's, it's a little bit. I'm a little young for that, but go ahead.

[B]

I'm not letting you off the hook right now. Did you ever watch Good Will Hunting?

[A]

I, I will, I will. It's gonna be a day night movie, but go ahead. Yeah.

[B]

All right. Three main views. Number one, there's the view that, and really each of these come down to, to the major views. Who are these sons of God? Because it talks about how the sons of God took daughters of humans. Who are these sons of God? So one view is that they are fallen angels. Basically they're demonic fallen angels. They're angelic beings who somehow took human women as wives and then the Nephilim were their offspring. So here are some arguments in favor of that. Number one, in the Old Testament, sons of God are almost always used. That term's almost always used to refer to heavenly beings, what we often will call angels. For example, in job 1 6, job 2 1, that that phrase is used to reference angelic beings of some kind. So it's like, hey, if that's usually how it's used everywhere else, it seems like how it would be used here. A second thing in favor of it is a lot of ancient Jewish interpretation took this view. So those that were closest to the text took this view of the text. Not everyone. There were still some different schools of thought within Judaism, but a lot of people held this interpretation that these were actually angels, the sons of God were angels. Also, if you go to two Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 through 7, it seems like it's referring to Genesis 6. In each of those places. It talks about angels who stepped out of their proper bounds and they transgressed some kind of a sin. It doesn't give a lot of explicit Stuff, but it seems like they're referring to Genesis 6. And since they seem to interpret that as angels. Oh, this must be angels.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

A final one is it simply explains why Genesis 6 sounds so strange and why this event seems to be treated as particularly severe. It kind of festival best fits that. But there are some cons, there's some good arguments against this view.

[A]

Yeah, I was going to ask you a question, but I'm gonna let you. I'll let you go.

[B]

Yeah. Number one, like Jesus literally says that angels do not marry.

[A]

I was gonna ask you that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it literally says that angels don't marry. And so that challenges this view. Now, response to that, the people who hold this, do they.

[A]

But can they still, you know, meet daughters of men?

[B]

Well, I'm gonna get to that.

[A]

As another thing that you don't marry, another thing is for you to do something else.

[B]

Oh, exactly, exactly. Well, that's actually, that's another con in this field. How could. Like an angel is a spiritual being that can manifest itself physically, but it's a spiritual being. How does that even make sense of how a spiritual being could procreate with a human being? That's part of that. But a response of some people who say, well, Jesus said that angels don't marry. When Jesus says that, he says that we are going to be in the new heavens to the earth. We're not going to have wives or husbands. If you're a wife, we're not going to have those because it says we'll be like the angels in heaven. The response to this objection is like, exactly. Angels in heaven. These angels fell from heaven and then they disobeyed God's commands. I'm not saying that seals the deal, but that would be a response to that objection I already raised. Like, this raises hard questions about how spiritual beings could actually have physical offspring. There is a group, another one that we kind of said already there's a group of people called the anakim. In numbers 1333, it says they're descendants of the Nephilim. How could the that happen if the Nephilim are all taken out by the Flood?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There's a few responses that are given to this. One is simply that maybe in numbers 1333, these people had heard stories about the Nephilim because, you know, Noah and his sons were telling them stories of their families and it kind of passed through generations. And it's not that they were descendants, but they were so afraid of these people that like, oh, these people must have be like the same Thing as the Nephilim.

[A]

Yeah. Because those were actually giants.

[B]

Exactly. The Anakim were actually really tall people. And so maybe in their fear, they attributed it to them, even if that's not actually who they were. Okay, that's one. That's one response.

[A]

Okay, so angels.

[B]

Angels.

[A]

That's the theory. Number one. Okay, number two.

[B]

Number two. And this is probably the second most. That's usually probably the most dominant view that a lot of people hold is that they are angels. The second view is what's called the Sethite view. This is the idea that the sons of God are people from the godly line of Seth. Sorry, from the. Yeah, from the wicked line. I'm sorry. Of Cain. And they marry daughters of men. I'm sorry, how can I mix this up? I'm sorry, let me read back over my nose. They're sons of God who enter, who were from the godly line of Seth, while the daughters of men are women from the ungodly line of Cain. The reason people hold this view is because just before this, in Genesis 6, it had gone into the dueling lineages of Seth and Cain, who were sons of Adam and Eve. And so the thought is, hey, one of these is godly, One of these is ungodly. Seth is godly, Cain is ungodly, ungodly. Hey, they're supposed to be separate. And then immediately after this, guess what happens? They intermarry. So they transgress this boundary. Some things in favor of this, it best fits the immediate context. Okay, if that just happened in Genesis 4:5, this best fits the context in Genesis 6. Like if I'm reading this, it makes sense that, hey, it's just been talking about this one is a godly line, one's an ungodly line. And now they're mixing when God had wanted them to remain sacred.

[A]

Yeah. And God says, man, there's only evil in men hearts.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. That's another thing in favor of it is that the emphasis in the passage seems to be on the sin of human beings. Whereas if these are angels, all of a sudden it's putting it on the sins of angels. So that's another thing in favor of this. That's again, not saying it's the best one, but that's what people would say. There are times when sons of God language is used for people who belong to God. Like in the Old Testament. It's rare, but there are an occasional place where those who belong to the family of God and belong to. To God are called sons of God. And this has actually been in popular interpretation in Christian history. And so this one has been the most popular one. It's been a very popular one. Especially in the early Church Reformation, a lot of people held this view. Here's some problems with it. The sons of God is simply the most, not the most natural phrase, like of Seth's line, like to all of a sudden come across this. If you're reading this in the context for almost everywhere else, sons of God refer to, to angels, that's not going to be the most natural way you're instinctively going to read this. The other thing is that there seems to be a juxtaposition of sons of God, daughters of man, one type of being, another type of being. It just doesn't seem to make as much sense if there's a juxtaposition that this could be it. So that's the view. Third one, and I'll do this one briefly. It's not as a widely held one, but it's kind of caught on some steam over the last, I'd say 50 years or so that the sons of God are powerful human rulers and kings. Oftentimes kings were known as divine or sons of divine beings. And so the idea is that these were powerful kings, maybe even demon possessed kings, by the way. And they forcibly took people, took wives from these other lines, made them their own. And that was a violation of what God wanted. Again, some things that are like there that would support this, kings are known for kind of being divine or semi divine. Genesis 6, 2 emphasizes seizure and power. So they took them, which they. Again, a king. If you're a king, hey, I'm going to take whatever I want. And the surrounding context again stresses human wickedness, not angelic wickedness. Akan is simply that Sons of God is not an obvious title for kings in Genesis. So whereas that might be used in some context in the ancient near east, that's not used in Genesis. It would be weird if all of a sudden it was used this way. So those are the three main views that people hold of it.

[A]

You lean towards the second one or what's the more popular one or more accepted one?

[B]

I right now, right now I've changed on this. Right now I would actually hold the view that they were likely angelic beings. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

I actually held that view. Okay, I've switched. I've at times held more the Sethite view. I've even a few times flirted with the more minority opinion that they're not related, that these are a different thing. But I would be probably right now more of a person who says leaders were angelic, who stepped out of line. And really, the thing I would even tell people now is while this is a debated issue, sometimes when people look at this passage, they miss. One of the big points it's trying to make is that this is a continuation of the evil that started in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, it says that Eve saw that the fruit was attractive from the tree, and it says she found it attractive and she took it and ate of it. Here, these people. People see that they're attracted and then they take. So those same words are being used. And then one of the main points that somebody's trying to say is like, hey, humans fell. Now angels are falling. The creation is getting so out of control. This is abomination.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, that's where I'm at. What about you?

[A]

Well, doesn't the word Nephilim mean fallen, something like that?

[B]

It means fallen.

[A]

So there's that parallel of being, you know, Fallen.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Okay, well, before I tell you what I think, because honestly, like, I'm. Some of these are fairly new to me, but I want to let me rapid fire some quick misconceptions and myths in light of what you just said, because people believe all sorts of things right now on the Internet, and some of these are actually pretty fairly common, I suppose, in some circles. So let me. Number one, Paul, the Nephilim, according to the Book of Enoch, were angels who descended to Earth and their children became giants who devastated the Earth. Now, the Bible doesn't say that, obviously, because I just read the text and I heard nothing about giants or necessarily, you know, them devastating the earth. But the Book of Enoch does. Is the Book of Enoch, right?

[B]

Yeah. And we did an episode, as you mentioned earlier, where we can do a deeper dive. So that's right. People to go look it up on our YouTube page. Look up it on. On the app or whatever and do a deeper dive. So I don't have time to retrace all of that, but a few things here. Number one, they may have been right in the sense that the Nephilim were offspring of angels and human women.

[A]

Okay, Is that where the first theory comes from?

[B]

The Book of Enoch? The first theory. So they would have held that theory. So they may have been right. I said maybe, because again, there's multiple options. They may have been right in that regard, but they're wrong in saying that's what devastated the earth. The blame in Genesis is on the sin of humans. And the flood is what devastates the earth because of their sin, even if angels were somewhat involved. Another thing just to remind people who haven't seen that episode yet is the Book of Enoch is basically like a fan fiction account that gives more detail to these verses. Verses. But it was not written by Enoch. So Enoch was a man that says he walked with God and he was no more. And I'll hear people say, well, hey, this was written by a guy who walks with God. And then he was on board. So, hey, we should trust everything he says.

[A]

So it's myth.

[B]

So they'll say it's true. They'll say, actually, this belongs in the Bible. And there's only one group ever in Christianity who's ever thought this was true.

[A]

Which is wild, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. Everyone else has said, no, we don't accept this. And that's because Enoch didn't write it. Enoch would have lived about 3000 to 3500 BC. This was written more around 400 to 2,200 BC okay, so real quick, let's just put in that perspective. 3,000 years difference. So that's as if if, like today I wrote a story about the fight between David and Goliath. That's how much distance there is.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Now imagine I write this story and it has all these details, and then some of the details end up actually being true. Now that means that I said some true things. Does that mean that everything I wrote about that account was true?

[A]

Yeah, probably not.

[B]

Absolutely not. And so that's what we have to remember is like saying, hey, they might have gotten some things right. It may have been actually angelic beings. But that doesn't mean that everything that the Book of Enoch says is not an inspired text and we shouldn't look at for it for absolute truth.

[A]

I'm gonna go through these quick because we're aligning the plane here. The Nephilim built the pyramids. That's what some people will claim.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, we just went from, like angels to aliens real quick.

[B]

There's literally no evidence of that. It was built. The pyramids were built, I think 2000 to 2500 BC. So it would have been number one, much like it would have been later than this story would have been. We literally have pay records of Egyptian laborers who built it. We have tools that were recovered. And guess what? They weren't really giant tools that were meant only for the hands of giants. This is just one of those myths that circulated, I think, because people were finding, like, they were saying, oh, bones of these giant people are being Found the throughout. Throughout the world. Hey, these pyramids are so big. There's no way a regular human could do this. Oh, it must have been the Nephilim. But there is actually no Right. Evidence that supports this whatsoever Settled.

[A]

Here's another one. There are people today that claim that they are descendants of the Nephilim. Is that true?

[B]

No. The Bible says they were literally, like, you know, wiped out. And, like, my thing is, how would you even prove that? Like, how are we going to do a DNA test?

[A]

Like, you're not that tall, bro.

[B]

No, you're not that tall. It's like, okay, Shaq. Or like, Wimby.

[A]

Like, Shaq maybe Wemby, maybe.

[B]

Like, maybe we do need to figure out some kind of a DNA test on Wimby kind of a thing, man. Spurgeon looking good, by the way. But I want to say this gently but clearly. If Christians believe this or that the Nephilim built the pyramids, far too often Christians are weird in all the ways we should be normal and normal in all the ways we should be weird. Far too often Christians will latch onto stuff like this and most of the world will say, that's really weird when most of the world is just normal and doesn't believe this silly stuff. But then it's far too often we also look just like the world and we should be weird. And so I think that's just the general admonition I would give to people who are getting caught up in some of this stuff is like, hey, like, far too often we're weird in ways we should really just be normal people. And we're off to also normal and way should we be weird and we should get those things right.

[A]

That's good, man. I got one more. Last one. The Nephilim proves that the Bible teaches mythology. Like, this is just. This feels. Honestly, somebody might be thinking, man, this just feels like a Lord of the Rings kind of Greek mythology God sleeping around, like, weird History Channel alien thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. If you think if by myth people mean, oh, it's a false story, like, in the way that people thought that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree, then I obviously would disagree. I'm like, no, I believe this actually did happen. But to your point, if it's more because, hey, there seem to be elements in this story that would have also been in stories from the ancient near east or even, like, Greek mythology of the idea of, like, gods coming down and sleeping with humans and, you know, basically making these demigods a few things there. And number one, some people Say, hey, the presence of a lot of those stories seemed to show that it didn't happen. I would actually argue the opposite, that if around that culture, in every of the different cultures in their text it says stories like that happened, I think it's more likely because something like it did happen. Like, let's say we found texts all throughout the United States of America from Native American tribes, and they all told these different versions of this huge fire that took place. I think most historians were. Would say, well, hey, there must have been an actual fire that took place. In the same way, if we got all these stories that are happening, it would actually, to me, show that something really did happen. And what the Bible is trying to tell us is, hey, this is what actually happened, that all these other stories have corrupted. And here's what I mean by corrupted, and all the other ancient near east stuff that kind of hits anything like this or even like within Greek mythology, these demigods, these kind of people who are like this hybrid mix between something divine and something human, they would be like, worshiped and revered. They were known as heroes. Where in this story the emphasis is like, no, this is evil. These people stepped out of the bounds and the boundaries that God had created. And so what this is trying to do is saying, hey, this is what happened. And by the way, this isn't something that we should say was good. This is something that was really, really bad.

[A]

Yeah. And just to emphasize what you're saying as we land this plane here, you know, I think for people that are maybe like, oh, I can't wait to dive deep into all these documentaries and, and, you know, go down the rabbit hole of the Nephilim, man, you have to consider what you just said, Paul, that Genesis 6, 4, where you hear about the Nephilim, the, the way the. The Bible describes them were men of renown. But in verse V, verse 5, literally right after that, the Lord saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every intention of the. Of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So verse four gives us a human perspective of these men being, quote, men of renown, but mighty men. And then the next verse gives us the God perspective. Men of evil. And so humans are saying, these men are great, they're mighty men. God is saying, these men are evil men. And verse six, God grieves. And verse seven, God pronounces judgment. And so the Nephilim is this peak corruption state. And so just as we, as we land, as we, you know, circle back a lesson that I think we get from, from this text and a little bit of a warning, I think is really relevant to our conversation, even as we talk about politics. Often times what most people celebrate from a human perspective, God is grieved by it and calls it evil. And when evil is celebrated, judgment eventually follows.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That's Genesis 6 right there, 100%. And so may we be a people marked by repentance. May we be a people that seek to be humble before God, before a holy and just God. And may we be a people marked by being the light of the world. And, and we proclaim Jesus as king.

[B]

And I would just add, as an encouragement on the one hand, because you hear all these like, okay, like, so what, what does this matter? And actually, I would say that would be part of my point, was that so many Christians obsess over this. And a question I sometimes like to ask people when they bring me this question or others, like, it is saying, hey, man, there's some things that we can't know for sure. Like, even if you found out today who the nephilim were, what would change about your life tomorrow? Yeah. And so it's just a reminder, like, hey, on the one hand, it is a good thing to want to know God's word deeply. Every word in the Bible is inspired by God, and we should want to know it well because we want to know God well. So I want to encourage people who, like, have a hunger to figure this out and to dive deep. I'm like, I, I, I want to encourage and honor that and say, hey, we should want to know God's word deeply and profoundly and well, because then we can come to know God well. On the other hand, I think I would say, hey, the desire to know God's word well can turn into an unhealthy obsession to know things that we will never be able to know on this side of heaven. And so even, like, I thought about this as we were prepping is just this juxtaposition of, like, I literally am just holding up here. I can hold it up for the camera. This is literally how many words that we have on the Nephilim.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Is the extent of it. I mean, I literally just copied and pasted everything from the Bible. And if you're not watching this, it literally only covers up about one fifth of a page. A few years ago, I began keeping this list of all of the verses that talked about God's character and his work. And so it'd be like, oh, he's a creator. And I would go find all the verses about him being a creator and being a savior and his power and his might, his omniscience and all the things. And I just began copying and pasting. And over time, I literally, like just compiled this massive list of all these things.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And what happens is that we will obsess over these things that we have so little on. And if I had a pen, I would start writing all these conspiracy theories and everything. We will obsess over this. But we will spend so little time on this, on coming to know who God is and knowing him more deeply. So again, I want to encourage people, by all means, know God's word well, including even these strange parts. But don't let your obsession with this, the things that, that we can't know, keep you from what we can know. And that is the God who wants to be known.

[A]

Let me pray.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Heavenly Father, thank you so much. Because there are things that we do not know, but you do know. And it's okay that we don't know. But today we just trust you. Thank you. Because of the treasure that scripture is that we get together and we can just dive deep. And Lord, ultimately we know that, Jesus, you are king. And so, Father, may you give us wisdom to be a church that is discerning, that is sober minded, that is trusting, ultimately your word above every other word. Father, help us be the light of the. Of the world. Give us wisdom as we navigate, especially as we have conversations around politics. May your church be the light of the world and be salt and Lord, I pray, I thank you for what you're doing in our church in this season. May we continue to just be open to receive whatever it is you have. I thank you for the live free nation as we dive deep every single week in your word. Thank you. We love you. We thank you for your word and we pray all this in your mighty name, Jesus. Amen.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Live free, brother.

[B]

Live free.