Why The American Marriage Process WRECKS Marriages (And How to Fix It) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode 38: Why The American Marriage Process WRECKS Marriages (And How to Fix It)
Lakepointe Church – September 1, 2025

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Overview

In this candid, rich episode, Pastor Josh Howerton—joined by his wife Jana and team member Carlos—dives deep into why the American approach to dating, engagement, and marriage often sets couples up for struggle and failure. With threads of biblical theology, honest Q&A, and practical marriage advice, the conversation challenges cultural norms around love, commitment, and divorce. The episode also addresses hot-button listener questions on intimacy, boundaries, parenting, and the darker realities at play in today’s culture, concluding with a sobering discussion about recent demonic influence displayed in national news.

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Main Themes and Purposes

• Unpacking the biblical concept of marriage as a covenant vs. a contract.
• Exposing the flaws in the typical American marriage process and offering “how to fix it.”
• Tackling difficult questions around divorce, boundaries, sexual sin, parenting, and more.
• Exploring the spiritual warfare manifesting in current events.
• Equipping listeners to discern culture versus Scripture and build marriages that thrive.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

[00:55–03:18] Series Context & Listener Connections

• Episode is part of Lakepointe’s 4-week “Song of Solomon: Love Life” series.
• Record-breaking church attendance—clear hunger for honest biblical teaching on marriage.
• Q&A is driven by listener-submitted questions, especially on intimacy and relational struggles.
• Lighthearted icebreaker game “This or That” offers a playful window into Josh and Jana’s dynamic.

[10:08–21:59] Marriage as Covenant: Deep Theology & Its Implications

• Marriage = Covenant, not Contract
  • Covenant is an “even if,” not “if then” agreement.
  • Biblical covenants: God commits to humankind in love that transcends conditions.
  • Genesis 15—The origin of “walking down the aisle” and the seriousness of covenant promises.
  • Jesus fulfills every biblical covenant, becoming the ultimate sacrificial Lamb.
• Key Quote:
  “In a covenant, what's happening is two people are saying, even if you are not what you should be to me, I am going to be what I should be to you.”
  — Josh [21:00]

[21:59–29:42] Why Marriages Fail: Gendered Pitfalls and Cultural Patterns

• Women’s Traps (Jana): Bitterness, unforgiveness, toxic friendships, unrealistic expectations set by romance media.
  • Quote: “If you have a circle of friends who… just sit around…complaining about…their husband…I've seen what that does to their marriages.” — Jana [24:23]
• Men’s Traps (Josh): Withdrawal, seeking “younger, hotter” models, neglecting marriage for hobbies, refusing repentance.
  • “If hot people having good sex resulted in great marriages, then all the best marriages would be in Hollywood.” — Josh [32:54]
• Key Insight: Both genders lose sight of covenant commitment when they allow culture, bitterness, or selfishness to take over.

[35:44–51:25] Covenant vs. Contract: Practical Differences

• Contrasts between contract and covenant relationships:
  • Contract: Two people, self-service, recording wrongs, punishment for failure.
  • Covenant: Three parties (spouses + God), mutual service, no record of wrongs, grace and forgiveness.
  • “If two people do that, their marriage is gonna be fine 100% of the time.”
    — Josh [37:15]
• The marital health of your friendships matters immensely—“show me your five closest friends…”

[38:57–49:15] Divorce, Remarriage, and Abuse: What the Bible Actually Says

• Biblically permissible divorce: Only in the case of physical adultery or abandonment by an unbelieving spouse (Matthew 5, 1 Cor 7).
  • “...if you enter into another marriage under those [unbiblical] scenarios, you are committing adultery.” — Josh [41:49]
  • Quote: “Try and see if the Lord can redeem the thing.” — Josh [42:32]
• Not legitimate grounds for divorce: “I’m not happy,” “he doesn’t pay enough attention,” sexual dissatisfaction.
• Abuse: Legitimate, severe abuse necessitates separation for safety; caution against overusing/misusing the term.

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Notable Q&A — “How to Fix It” and Everyday Marriage

[50:46–56:14] Practical Dating: How to Drop Hints & Healthy Matchmaking

• Advice for single women: Be present where godly men are, serve in ministries, compliment appropriately. Guidance against chasing passive men.
• Best marriage incubators: Serving together and receiving wisdom from godly mentors.
• Quote: “Serve on the greeting team at your church or in the student ministry...doing ministry with other people…is literally the best way to identify who would be a great spouse.” — Josh [53:12]

[56:19–58:24] Sexual Sin in Dating: Flee or Fight?

• Grace and forgiveness are available, but habitual sexual sin in dating is a red flag—seek repentance, set boundaries, or leave if patterns persist.
• “Yes to forgiveness, but you should be saying no to patterns.” — Josh [57:57]

[58:26–69:45] Prioritizing Marriage During “Toddler Years”

• For mothers: Structure and boundaries (sleep schedules, independent play) create energy margin for marriage.
  • “Your job is to create a life where priority and intimacy with your husband…can happen.” — Josh [64:41]
  • “Put the oxygen mask on mama first.” — Josh [67:08]
• For fathers: Step up to alleviate the burdens, arrange date nights (does not always mean going out).
• On co-sleeping: Strong advice against, for the sake of marital intimacy and unity.

[69:41–79:57] How Long Should You Date/Be Engaged?

• Date just long enough to decide—not to waste years in ambiguity.
• Short engagements after pre-marital counseling and alignment on faith, money, kids, and family.
  • “When you start living together, you are not practicing for marriage. You are practicing for divorce.” — Josh [73:17]
• Recommend low-cost, low-friction weddings. Invest wedding money in a home, not a party.

[80:07–88:15] Phones, Secrets, and Boundaries

• Spouses should have full transparency—open phone access and no secrets (distinction between privacy, secrets, and surprises).
• “Christians say yes to surprises, yes to privacy. We say no to secrecy because it’s a demonstration of distrust...” — Josh [83:00]
• No room for regulars at Twin Peaks or Hooters or for weaponizing sex in marriage.

[88:30–97:39] Encouragement & Nuggets

• Marriage gets better with age—testimony from a listener in her 60s underscores hope and possibility.
• When you “don’t like your husband,” be a hummingbird, not a buzzard: “What you focus on with your words grows.” — Josh [97:23]

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[99:35–124:08] The Dark Side: Spiritual Warfare in Today’s News

[99:35–124:08] Demonic Influence Behind Tragedies

• Discussing recent church shooting by a transgender-identifying biological male—clear markers of demonic oppression:
  • Targeting Christian children, anti-Semitic/anti-Christian messages, and explicit hatred for God and Christ.
  • Shooter’s journal reveals demonic voices and lack of control—direct echo of demonic possession in Mark 5.
  • Josh: “This is the most overt demonic activity I've ever seen chronicled in the national news.” [101:35]
  • Carlos: “When you see yourself in the mirror and don't see the image of God but the image of Satan—that's oppression… Rejecting your identity from God leads to shame and self-destruction.” [110:10–111:57]
• Christians must discern and not shy away from naming the spiritual realities—while maintaining empathy and loving the person, not the ideology.
• Quote: “Whatever God creates, Satan copies… Demonic oppression and possession are the satanic counterfeits of being filled with the Spirit.” — Josh [109:11]
• Don’t let empathy blind you into affirming lies: “Empathy and love are not synonymous. Love always rejoices with what is true.” — Carlos [121:24]

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[124:17–125:22] Closing Prayer & Encouragement

Jana closes with prayer:
Gratitude to God, intercession for marriages and singles, petition for discernment in a world full of lies, and a plea for a hedge of protection and sanctification for God’s people.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “In a contract…it’s ‘If you do this, then I'll do this.’ In a covenant…even if you are not what you should be to me, I am going to be what I should be to you.” — Josh [21:00]
• “You didn’t fall out of love. You fell out of repentance and forgiveness.” — Josh [30:04]
• “Girls—if your circle is affirming you in all the wrong ways…that breaks down your marriage.” — Jana [25:55]
• “The grass isn’t greener on the other side of the fence, it’s greener where you water it.” — Josh [33:33]
• “If two people do that…serve each other like Jesus…their marriage is gonna be fine 100% of the time.” — Josh [37:15]
• “Try and see if the Lord can redeem the thing [even in cases of divorce].” — Josh [42:32]
• “Put the oxygen mask on mama first—your first priority is to keep you good.” — Josh [67:08]
• “Date just long enough to decide.” — Josh [73:14]
• “When you start living together, you are not practicing for marriage. You are practicing for divorce.” — Josh [73:17]
• “What you focus on with your words grows. The book of Proverbs says the power of life and death is in the tongue.” — Josh [97:23]
• “This is the most overt demonic activity I’ve ever seen chronicled in the national news…” — Josh [101:35]
• “Be careful not to let empathy blind you from being loving to other people.” — Carlos [122:15]

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:40–03:18: Welcome, series context, preview of main topics
• 03:34–10:08: Icebreaker game “This or That”
• 10:08–21:59: Marriage as covenant—biblical theology
• 21:59–35:44: Gender-specific pitfalls in marriage
• 35:44–38:57: Contract vs. covenant relationships
• 38:57–49:15: Divorce, remarriage, and abuse
• 50:46–56:14: Q&A: Single women, dating, and matchmaking
• 56:19–58:24: Q&A: Sexual sin in dating
• 58:26–69:45: Prioritizing marriage in parenting years
• 69:41–79:57: How long should you date? Fixing the American process
• 80:07–88:15: Phones, secrets, marital boundaries
• 88:30–97:39: Encouragement for marriages, hope for the future
• 99:35–124:08: Spiritual warfare in current events
• 124:17–125:22: Closing prayer and goodbye

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Conclusion

This episode pulls no punches while offering hope: the American path to marriage needs a biblical reset. With unfiltered honesty and deep compassion, Josh, Jana, and Carlos equip listeners to build strong marriages and spiritually discern the lies and attacks rampant in culture. If you want practical wisdom, scriptural grounding, and actionable advice on marriage in today’s world, this is required listening.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything thing happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode. Well, hello, everybody.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Welcome to episode number 38 of the live Free podcast.

[B]

We're happy to be here.

[A]

We're happy to be here. I'm here with Ms. Jana. We're going a date right after this.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Where are we going?

[B]

We got that gift card to Perry's maybe.

[A]

Oh, Perry's. That's right.

[B]

Yeah. It's nice.

[A]

I already know we're gonna order.

[B]

It's nice to have a gift card.

[A]

It is nice to have a gift card. We are in. For our listeners, this has been a really fun. So we are in week. This is four, right. This week, four week four, Song of Solomon. Yeah. This week, four week four,. Song of Solomon love life series. I am joined for the moment only by Jana because we are once again going to be talking about some kind of in your business things around marriage, marriage vows that obviously that affects marital intimacy. We received. What was it, Brooke? Wasn't it like almost 300 questions? Yeah. And we just tossed that out yesterday. Hundreds and hundreds of questions. And, you know, a lot of them continue to be at least involving marital intimacy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we're gonna be hitting some of that stuff. And it just feels more comfortable when it's just me and you talking about those things. So let me go ahead and tease where we're headed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We are going to talk about what does it mean for marriage to be a covenant? So we're gonna do some theology. We're gonna talk about when is it okay to divorce. Sad but necessary question. We are going to talk about what is, I think, the most obvious example of documented demonic activity dominating the national news right now in my entire lifetime. And it's a little eerie. And I think Christians need to start to understand what's going on there. And then we're going to answer a whole bunch of questions. Things like, how do you prioritize your husband when you're in the toddler years?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How can a woman of God drop hints when she wants a guy to ask her out but he's not doing his thing? This is gonna be fun. And then I'm gonna have a lot of fun talking about how the American marriage process is perfectly designed to produce wreckage in your life and how to fix it. We have.

[B]

Well, I'm glad we can help with how to fix it.

[A]

We're gonna fix it.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

So like, if somebody's dating or engaged or you have kids that are dating or be engaged, we're just gonna solve all of your problems and tell you do instead of what people usually do.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

It'll be fun. It's gonna be really fun. Is there any other one of the Q and A questions that you're like, really excited to answer later?

[B]

Oh, goodness. There were so many. It's hard to. There were a lot. I don't know. Let's just. Yeah, let's. Let's save that.

[A]

Okay, well, we got some fun ones, so we'll save that. So, hey, a couple quick things and we'll dive right in. This is again, this is gonna be another PG13 episode. Kind of like keep in keeping with the series. Do you wanna do that? Wanna celebrate some stuff? This is. This series has been amazing.

[B]

It has been in person.

[A]

I don't know if you know this.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

In person. At our campuses. For the last. For. During this series, we are averaging for the first. First. We've had our first. Our first 25,000 person week, our first 26,000 person week, and our first 27,000 person week.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I know. It's been crazy, man. People love clear Bible teaching about that.

[B]

Stuff and just to help with the flourishing and growth of their marriages. I'm excited what God's going to continue to do.

[A]

Well, it's been fun because we've been in the lobby praying with people after services and it's like we're constantly meeting couples that like after week one, the godly man thing, I asked her out, she was a greeter. And here we are, we're on a third date.

[B]

I know. And so, so for all the singles who you've asked questions and that too, just know that there's hope. Like there's hope to meet somebody. So just, I don't know, sign up to be a greeter. That's where they all seem to be finding each other.

[A]

He's a great volunteer recruitment. You know, honestly, I literally have that in my notes. Hey, you should, you should seriously be.

[B]

A greeter you get to meet so many people that way. It's a great way to meet people.

[A]

Totally not joking on that. Actually. Also just want to celebrate. I am wearing. Can I get a good camera angle on my hat? I'm wearing my rooted hat.

[B]

I know. We're, we're very excited Rooted.

[A]

We right now we are pushing towards 3,000 people that are already signed up and registered. That's awesome for rooted. If somebody don't know what rooted is. If you're a Lake Point person, that's our 10 week discipleship experience. It's like boot camp for team Jesus where we just teach people like, here's what it means. Means to be a, you know, thriving disciple of Jesus. So if you are at Lake Point, you'd like to be a part of that. You can text the word rooted to the number 20411. We'll get you rolling. And then I will finally say. And then we'll dive right in it. The reason the podcast is growing so much is because people are commenting, liking, subscribing, reviewing. So anytime you do that, that really helps. It's really awesome. We do that. And you can get our show notes from each episode by texting the word notes to the number 20411 or just going to Lakepoint Church shownotes. Then I will also say this.

[B]

Okay. Oh, yeah.

[A]

So we. Janet did. Jana helped write this for week two of the series Code of a Godly Woman. We had one of the amazing ladies at Lakepoint made this.

[B]

Yes, she did a great job. She really did.

[A]

So we'd love to give this away to a woman that aspires to be a godly woman. So if you want this, this guy, you can just comment on YouTube. Comment your favorite date night spot.

[B]

It's a great idea. Yeah.

[A]

Or if you're single, where you would like someone to make your favorite date night spot and we'll pick somebody, reach out to you and send it to you. That'd be awesome. Okay. Before we dive in, start talking about the Bible. Okay, Carlos, who's gonna be on the podcast later, we're gonna pull you in later. Carlos, do you wanna. What are you gonna say?

[B]

Oh, you go ahead and say that.

[A]

You want to do a little. We don't know what you're about to do. Carlos is going to do another.

[B]

They've already told me this is a little spicy. They won't tell me what, what. And I'm like, I don't know if I'm prepared for this.

[C]

Just a little bit.

[A]

Not too much so now I am nervous.

[C]

This is a game called this or that.

[A]

Oh, my.

[C]

And so basically, I'm just going to give you guys two choices and you have to pick one, and we shall see if you guys agree or not.

[A]

So we. All right, so. Okay.

[C]

I'll figure it out. Yeah. So let me just start here. Not Spicy Forest Frank or Brandon Lake.

[B]

Oh, that's really. That's hard.

[A]

Brandon. Brandon.

[B]

Yeah, I think I'd say the same thing.

[A]

But we love Forest Frank.

[B]

We do. We do.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Clean the kitchen or fold laundry?

[A]

Clean the kitchen.

[B]

I think. I think I'd rather fold laundry.

[A]

Folding laundry hurts my back.

[B]

When do you fold laundry?

[A]

Last time you were out of town, I surprised you with all the laundry being folded.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[C]

Google Maps or I know a shortcut.

[B]

Trust me, Google Maps, yes.

[C]

Kids, bedtime. Strict schedule or let's go with the flow.

[B]

No, strict.

[A]

Strict schedule. Yeah, we'll talk about that later in this podcast.

[C]

Spender or saver?

[A]

Saver. Hey, if they hesitate, you know the answer.

[B]

Within boundaries, though. Hey, I have a budget. I follow my budget. I stick to.

[C]

Stick to coffee. Black or cream and sugar?

[A]

Black.

[B]

Butter.

[A]

Dude. She does butter. I'll be honest. I think it's gross.

[B]

I think it's great.

[C]

27 minute sermon or 45 minute sermon?

[A]

I mean, I aspire to a 27 minute sermon.

[B]

Yeah. For your sake. I don't know.

[A]

Jana's like, please shorten your sermons for me.

[B]

No, I mean.

[A]

No, keep going.

[C]

You're good.

[B]

It's great content.

[C]

Netflix, Binge or One Episode at a Time Bench.

[B]

Well. Well, no, it's like five minutes at a time. We just.

[A]

We fall asleep real fast.

[B]

Yeah. By the time we put it on, it's five minutes and we're done.

[C]

After a fight in marriage, talk it out right away or cool off first?

[A]

Most of the time right away it's right away.

[B]

But sometimes I need a. I need a second. I just need a second so I can gather my thoughts.

[C]

Roll the toothpaste tube or squeeze in the middle?

[A]

Squeeze.

[B]

Squeeze.

[C]

Alarm, snooze button or get up immediately.

[B]

Snooze.

[A]

Janet converted me. I don't like that conversion.

[C]

Afternoon tea or barbecue?

[A]

Barbecue.

[B]

Did you say tea?

[A]

Tea or barbecue?

[B]

Oh, definitely tea.

[C]

Yeah, this one's a little spicier. Scheduled intimacy or keep it spontaneous.

[A]

Pattern. Yeah, you gotta at least have.

[B]

You gotta at least and then aspire to more.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Big wedding or elope?

[A]

I'm gonna talk about that in this. Elope or small wedding?

[B]

Yeah, true.

[A]

Or false.

[C]

Last one. Back massages can just be back massages.

[B]

It's false.

[A]

It's false. Hey, listen. Honesty, honesty. All right, let's dive right in. That's a good transition. So this week of the series, Pastor Mike was talking about the vow, and, you know, emeritus, he's talking about. I think it was like Song of Solomon. I think he skipped from. He hit chapters five and then skip chapter eight. Okay, let me just say really quick, some theology on this. And then, Jana, we're gonna dive right in, talk about some, like, nitty gritty stuff. And this is gonna take me a minute, so just roll with me here.

[B]

You're great.

[A]

One of the things that Pastor Mike started hitting that is unique to Christianity and an undergirding principle of the scriptures is that marriage is. A word that we use is called covenant. The word is covenant. So let me explain what that is and why it actually affects marriages, because that's going to get into why the Bible teaches what it teaches on marriage and divorce and remarriage. Okay, so really quick. Our culture, we do contracts. We don't do covenants. So we're not familiar with this. Here's what a covenant is. A contract is an if, then agreement. A covenant is an even if agreement. So, for instance, throughout the Bible, you're going to notice this, that the best way, I think, to read the Scriptures is as a series of covenants that God establishes with mankind. So it's really interesting. I'll actually run through these really quick for our little Bible nerds. Do a little theology real quick.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

There are two. They're called principal. There are two principal covenants in the Bible and then a whole bunch of sub covenants under the second principal covenant. So here's what this means. There is in the Bible, by the way, a covenant just means a way that God has promised to relate to mankind. That's all this means. So in the Bible, there's a covenant of works that God establishes with humankind before the fall in Genesis 2. And that, honestly, that is an if, then agreement. If you obey, then this is what will happen. And if you do not obey, then surely you shall die. It's an if, then covenant of works. Okay. After that happens, what the Bible teaches is kind of a little mysterious, is that from then on, as soon as Adam and Eve fall, God pursues them. Do you remember what he does immediately after they sin? I'm putting you on the spot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there's a million things I could say. Yeah, you're like Please don't ask me a question about this.

[B]

I'm listening to you.

[A]

That's great. You're listening. That's great. As soon as Adam and Eve fall and they sin, it's called. Theologians call it the Proto Evangelion, which means the first telling of the gospel. Evangelion is the word we get gospel from. God immediately pursues sinful Adam and Eve, and he. This is really interesting. He slays an innocent animal. Most theologians think it was probably a spotless lamb. And he covers them with the bloody garments of the slain lamb. And every Christian's little alert bell should be going, that sounds familiar. And then he establishes what is called the covenant of grace. Now, again, just track with me. We're doing theology, but this is going to get to marriage really quick. Hebrews 13:20 says, this is really interesting. It says, now may the God of peace, who, through the blood of the eternal covenant, brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus Christ, that. That great shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him through Jesus Christ, to him whom be the glory forever and ever, and amen. When it's talking about that eternal covenant, it's talking about this covenant of grace through the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, here's just like four that we're going to nerd out for a second, and we're going to get into the nitty gritty of the. The marriage stuff. The rest of the Bible is a series of five sub covenants, most theologians would say five, that are all expressions of that one covenant of grace. So you have Genesis 6. God establishes the Noahic covenant when he puts the rainbow in the sky. By the way, it's really interesting. The rainbow is a bow and it's pointing upwards at heaven. And in other words, God is saying, from now on, when mankind sins, I'm not going to shoot my wrath down at mankind. I'm going to shoot it up at me. Which is why when we sin, Jesus comes and he dies. The arrow pierced the heart of God himself. There's also some. This is a little side note. I actually think it is prophetic that the LGBT movement took the rainbow as their symbol, because when God established the Noahic covenant, he made the rainbow the sign of the covenant, as if to say, I will not pour out my wrath on you, basically, until Christ comes again. I think a little bit of what's happening is there was divine intervention when the LGBT movement, that is, you know, it is this open rebellion against God. Romans Chapter one, when they took that as their sign, I literally think they are prophetically declaring, judgment will fall on us again. So that's a whole different thing. Then in Genesis 12 and 15, you have the Abrahamic covenant. I'm going to come back to that in a second. Which gets to the demonic thing we'll talk about later, where God is. He gives Abraham a promise to give him land, his descendants, land, lineage, and a Lord. He said, through one of your seeds, seed, singular, the whole earth is going to be blessed. And Jesus was one of Abraham's seed. That's why the genealogies of Jesus, by the way, establish real firmly that Jesus was a direct descendant of Abraham. Then you have the Mosaic covenant, also called the. The Sinai, the sinatic Covenant in Exodus 19 through 24. I'll do these really fast. Okay? This, this just for our Bible nerds. And then everybody else can be like.

[C]

Just tell me what to do when I'm dating.

[A]

Then you have the Davidic covenant. In 2nd Samuel, chapter 7, God promises King David that his descendants will not lack a man who would sit on the throne, and that one of his descendants would reign forever. Which is also why when Jesus is born in Luke chapter two, they go back to Bethlehem. And it says, because they were of the lineage of David and Bethlehem was tied to David, it's establishing Jesus is the descendant of David that fulfills the Davidic covenant, so that one of David's descendants would sit on an everlasting throne, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And then the best one of all, you have the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31, which is why Jesus, when he establishes the Lord's Supper, holds up the cup of wine and says, this cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. Now, okay, all that I know we're nerding out. Isn't that really cool?

[B]

It is, yes.

[A]

And Jesus fulfills, like, every single one of the covenants.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

It's really cool. Now, that takes us to marriage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Marriage is a covenant. It's not a contract. All right. And this is going to get into what me and Janet are about to talk to, talk about in marriage, divorce, remarriage, and all the questions. So people like, well, that's great, but what actually is a covenant? If you want to read something, here's your homework. You go back to Genesis 15. The clearest example of a covenant explanation in the Bible is in Genesis 15, when God establishes it with Abraham. This is like my favorite Old Testament passage. It's really cool. You're doing a good job listening to me for a long time.

[B]

I'm good. I'm trying.

[A]

You're like, I have to do this all the time.

[B]

I love to.

[A]

Okay, good. That's great. Okay, so here it's just 15 best example of covenant in the whole Bible. So this is really cool. When God establishes this covenant with Abraham. The English translation is it says he's going to make a covenant, but the actual Hebrew is the word berit. And it's actually what it means is he's going to cut a covenant. The reason it says he's going to cut a covenant is because whenever they established a covenant, God would tell Abraham to go. He said, go get some. Go get some animals and cut them in half. Go get some innocent animals and cut them in half. And make an aisle out of the two pieces of the slain animals. They're probably slain lambs in there. And then what somebody would do to establish the covenant is they would walk down. This should sound familiar. They would walk down an aisle to make a vow and enter into a covenant. By the way, this actually is where Christians got the tradition of two people walking down an aisle before they made a vow to each other in marriage. This is literally where that comes from. And they would be walking considerably less romantic. They would be walking between the pieces of, like, actual slaughtered animals. And what people would traditionally do is they would recite the terms of the covenant. And what they were doing is it was a visual way to say, if I break the terms of this covenant, may I become like these slain animals? It's like. It was like a violent promise. Okay, now this is like, super cool. So in Genesis 15, when God establishes the covenant with Abraham, what would typically happen? It was called a suzerain vassal covenant. I'm being like, super nerdy for a second. Typical would happen is the greater party would make the lesser party walk through the pieces of the slain animal, reciting the terms of the Covenant. In Genesis 15 at the. I'll get emotional talking about this at the exact moment when Abraham is getting ready to walk the pieces. The Bible says that God put him in a deep sleep. And then it says that a smoking fire pot appeared. It's the exact same language that Exodus uses to describe the presence of God descending on Mount Sinai. The exact same language consuming fire. So God himself appears, and then God himself, the greater party, walks through the pieces of the slain animals as if to say, not only if I break this covenant will I become like these slain animals. But he Was saying, if you, Abraham, and your descendants, if you break this covenant, I will become like these slain lambs and these slain animals. Now, fast forward 3500 years, and Jesus comes, God himself, and he goes to the cross. Throughout the New Testament, the Bible calls the church the bride of Christ. And then Jesus goes to the cross. John the Baptist calls him the Lamb of God. That takes away the sins of the world. And he goes to the cross, and he's torn to pieces. And what was happening is we had broken the covenant, and God was walking the pieces. That's really good news.

[B]

That is the best news.

[A]

It's the best news. That's like my favorite thing in the whole testament to explain.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Okay. Which, by the way, leads us to marriage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A covenant again, in a contract. What we're used to in American culture is a contract, which is an if then thing. If you do this, then I'll do this. If you do that, then I'll do that in a covenant. What's happening is two people are saying, even if you are not what you should be to me, I am going to be what I should be to you. It's not conditional. So, no, that's no matter what happens. Till death do us part. We're making these vows. Okay. All right. I've talked about for a really long time.

[B]

Okay, you. I didn't say that.

[A]

That's it. So, you know, kind of one of the things we're talking about this week is that when two people enter into a marriage, very frankly, they're entering in saying divorce is not an option under a very limited set of circumstances that the Bible outlines that I'll talk about here in a second. Divorce is not an option.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, Jana, can I ask you, let's be really honest. What are some things you do women? I'll do men. What are some things that tend to lead women to breaking their marriage vows and covenants?

[B]

Yeah. I think a lot of times what I see is that bitterness and unforgiveness and resentment start to creep in. So it's like there's an offense that happens, and rather than fighting for forgiveness, it just. It grows. And then there's this record of wrong. That's. Every time he does something to make you mad, it's just. You just keep on writing on that record, and you're not. You're not forgiving. You're not seeking to be reconciled to one another, so that. That tends to balloon. And so I see that happen a lot.

[A]

You want to tell them, like, we've got that little. How serious immediate forgiveness is. And we. Do you remember we've only had to use it like, once or twice earlier in our marriage. There was an older godly couple whose book we read that led us to establish a little signal to each other that if we needed to forgive each other in public. Do you remember this?

[B]

Goodness. I don't. I do, but I don't remember.

[A]

We've only had to use it like, twice. We said if we were ever, like, immediate forgiveness is so important that we were like, if we're ever in a social setting and one of us realizes that we actually hurt the other person, that we would make eye contact and touch each other's foot under the table.

[B]

Remember that? That's been a long time, dash 20 years. I mean, we haven't had to put that in practice very much.

[A]

I can only remember two times we did it. But anyway, that's how important, like, immediate forgiveness is.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We didn't. We established this thing. Like, we don't even want to have to wait till we get in the car after a social hangout to do forgiveness.

[B]

No. Yeah, we wanna do it, like, right then. And. And we're going to talk more about, like, this next week with just conflict resolution and all that. But it's like, you may need a second just to kind of like, okay, let me collect my thoughts. But it's like, you're not waiting an hour, you're not waiting hours or the next day, like, immediately, as soon as you can get in there and like, forgive each other. Another thing that I. I see that it leads women to violate marriage covenants is I think about friendships. And so if you have a circle.

[A]

This is huge.

[B]

Of friends who, you know, it's like they don't like their husbands and they make it obvious and they're just sit around in a group complaining about what, what everything that their husband does wrong. It is just. I don't know, it creates just this cycle of bitterness and it stirs one another up. And I've just. I've seen what that does to their marriages. And I've seen a lot of marriages because of the groups of friends they've surrounded themselves with, like, end up ending. Another thing is. Oh, go ahead.

[A]

I thought you were gonna say, like, what you just said is huge. Oh, so can I. So let me describe. And you know this. You know, we're just. We've committed to be really straightforward and maybe a little less PC on some things, but it's like, honestly, to have a great marriage, you have to break a bunch of PC rules. So let me describe the type of women that if you surround yourself with, it's generally gonna go bad for you. And then you can either agree or disagree with me.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

What we have kind of noticed is if you surround yourself with like a bunch of wind down Wednesday friends who, like, what they really love doing is drinking wine and gossiping about people and talking about their husbands. If they're like super into therapy culture.

[B]

Yeah, I was getting ready to say that.

[A]

Like super into therapy culture.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then they're just kind of gossipy.

[B]

And worldly and just like affirming you in all the right or all the wrong ways. Like, yes, you should feel like that. Yes, he did do you wrong. Yes, you should be mad at him and let him know it and just affirming you in all the wrong, wrong ways rather than like really affirming you to, hey, you need to go be reconciled to your husband. You need to get, you need to forgive him. You need to extend forgiveness. Actually, maybe you need a receive forgiveness for what you've done. And it's these types of friendships, they do the opposite of that. They really just, they're there and they break down your marriage.

[A]

And I will say, do you think agree or disagree? I think sometimes, like, because, you know, what we'll talk about is men and women are equally sinful, but because they're created different, because they got different curses of the fall, and because they have different callings and designs, they're prone to different species of sin in general, for sure. I do feel like the friend thing can push women towards divorce and breaking marriage covenants in a way that it doesn't as often push men towards it. Agree or disagree.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, from, from what I've seen and I've watched groups of women go through, Yes, I definitely would agree with that. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You got any theories on why did you. By the way we talked about this now is. I think it's more than 70% of divorces are initiated by women now.

[B]

That's crazy. Yeah, that's kind of, that's wild theories on like why, why that happened. I mean, well, it's like, I mean, I think a lot of times women will, when they're going, going through something, so they automatically will like run to their friendships to discuss everything that's going on where it's like, honestly, that's something that you need to be running to your spouse about stuff. I mean, now when it's about him, you want to take it to your friends. But I do not gossip with my friends about you unless I'm gonna say something, you know, positive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that is just. There's really no place for that. You're not going to tear down and cut down your husband. And so I just. Yeah, I think a lot of times just, you know, that's how women's friendships, they like to be affirmed. They like to have people agree with them. And so if they can create a group that's going to just affirm them in everything that they do, whether it's right or wrong, they have created what feels like them a very safe place to come to with all these problems. It's not helpful.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You got more.

[B]

Well, I think one more thing I'd say is like, I think sometimes women, they have an unrealistic realistic expectation of marriage and what marriage looks like and what their husband's going to be for them. Like, I think you can see this when women get highly invested in romance novels and they think that everything that is written in the book is like, oh, my husband's not living up to any of this stuff, and then place these unrealistic expectations upon it on him. There's. There are so many more. I just, you know, so.

[A]

Hey, man, you're not married to Mr. Darcy.

[B]

Yeah. You're not, you're not. So, but it's like you need to, like, who are you married to? And you, you need to identify all the great qualities he has, and we're going to talk about this later and you start, you know, affirming him and praising him for those things, showing him respect and building him up in those areas. And then you're going to see him continue to grow into this man you love and, you know, you esteem for who he is.

[A]

That's good. Anything else?

[B]

I can't think anything right now.

[A]

No, no, that's great. I think for men in general is. I think. Yeah, I think people are sinners. So I think one of the biggest ones is, hey, man, you didn't fall out of love. You fought a repentance and forgiveness. I think that's like. We'll talk about that next week.

[B]

It's kind of the top for both.

[A]

It is, it is. That's not gender specific there. You didn't fall to love, you fought a repentance, you fought a forgiveness. I think that's something we figured out like really early on was like, like aggressive, moving.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Take out the trash really, really fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Honestly, we'll talk about that a lot next week. But that's not like learning. Conflict early in marriage was quite an ordeal for us.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It was hard.

[A]

It was.

[B]

But we figured it out.

[A]

We did.

[B]

So, guys, there's hope. You will figure it out.

[A]

How long do you think it took us to, like, get to the spot? Oh, we can do conflict pretty good.

[B]

I mean, it took years, don't you think?

[A]

Oh, definitely. Definitely years.

[B]

Yeah. Well, and we'll get into that more. But it was like, I would just shut down. I don't know what to say.

[A]

And then I would just talk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I need a minute. I need a minute. Our families did conflict, like, the exact.

[B]

Oh, totally.

[A]

Exact opposite.

[B]

Totally opposite.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we figured it out, and we're going to talk about that next week. Everything we learned. Because we learned a lot of stuff.

[B]

We sure did.

[A]

But I seriously think that's, like, the number one thing for everybody is, like, you didn't fall out of love. You fell out of repentance, and you fell out of forgiveness. You know, I do think that, like, probably for men, more than women, men bond over shared endeavors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, honestly, I think a huge part of our marriage that has made it, you know, honestly, it's like, we talk about it, we each got struggles and we got sins. You know, one area that, by the grace of God is really special. We have an amazing marriage. We do.

[B]

You're my favorite person.

[A]

You're my favorite person. We got an amazing marriage. I think, honestly, a huge part of that is like. Like, we've always had stuff that it's like, we're doing this together. We're building this together. Whether that was student ministry or, you know, the bridge. We're planting the bridge in Nashville or that here, we're like, right now, we're literally doing this together. We're leading a rooted group together, like, finding something that is, like. I don't know, there's something for me where I'm like, dude, I'm doing this with Jana.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just think men do bond over shared endeavors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a unique way. I think that's, you know, really, really, I think the myth of a younger model, just, if I'm really honest, like, I think men can do that where they especially there's a certain type of dude, especially, they get a little older and, you know, in some ways, men might be a little more visual, physical, sexual in some ways than women. And so you get to the, hey, the relationship's not good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then he starts believing this lie. You know, be well, I'd Be really happy if Again, this is PG13 episode. I'm confronting a lie, which we should do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He starts kind of believing this lie. Like, you know, man, this marriage is not really fun. It's not. I'm not really happy. You know, would be really exciting is if I was with somebody that's younger, hotter, and was having better sex. And can I just remind everybody, like, hey, if. If hot people having good sex resulted in great marriages, then all the best marriages would be in Hollywood.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Guess where is, like the capital of marriage. Dumpster fire in the United States. Yeah, Hollywood. So, like, let's get rid of that lie. It's that thing of the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It's greener where you water it.

[B]

Right? Yes.

[A]

And then I do think if we're talking about gender specific stuff, I think men more than women, they'll neglect their marriage so that they can. So that they can succeed in a hobby.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like, hey, dude, if you would have traded. If you would have, you know. And again, we don't want to. We both have our struggles. We're not saying we're perfect, but, you know, it's that thing. If I played a ton of golf in high school, I play one round of golf per year up at grandpa's farm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, now. And the reason I'm not good at golf is because I want to be good at marriage and parenting.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. But it's interesting that you just said for. They trade it for a hobby instead of like their career or success in.

[A]

Their career, that obviously I do think that happens too. But, you know, I do think it happens too. But I think with the easy. The easier trade is like in my head is, hey, man, if you had taken the amount of time you spent on. Again, there's nothing wrong with golf. I'm not saying that. I'm just using an analogy. If you had taken the amount of time you spent on golf in developing like a friendship with your wife.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You would not be in a divorce attorney's office. So I think those are some of the things I think.

[B]

Yeah, that's great.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, let me do a couple quick differences between a covenant relationship and a contract relationship, because I think that dovetails. And then we can get into some of the Q and A's, because the Q and A's, they really tie into this thing. Okay. So I'll just do these really quick. Okay. In a contract relationship, it's a relationship between two people. You and your spouse in a covenant relationship, it's between three people. You, your spouse and God. I think that's super important. Like, hey man, I don't. It's not just between. So this is really important. It's not just between me and my wife. Because if it's just between you and your wife, if you and your wife decide you both want a divorce, that's okay. But you didn't make a contract, you made a covenant. And listen, man, that's a three key system now. And in 99.9% of scenarios, God's saying, no, I'm not okay with the divorce. Now in a second I am going to talk about biblical, where it's actually biblically permissible to divorce, but is between three people. I think in decisions. In a contract it's I seek my will. That's what a contract is. Let me negotiate this so that I can get what I want and you get what you want. In a covenant is we together seek God's will.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

In a contract, it's about serving. In a contract, you serve me. I'm trying to get out of you. What I want in a covenant is we serve each other.

[B]

That's good. There's a big difference there.

[A]

Dude, I honestly, that's a whole. We'll talk about this, I think next week. Honestly, I'll rant for a second. One of the things that bothered me in reading all the questions was like, honestly, is everyone asking, how do I get what I want?

[B]

It really was, how do I get what I want? And it. And it was, oh, sorry, like, but it was like, it was really like, he's doing everything wrong and you know, what do I do to fix it? You know, it's like, ah, it was just all about me and what I need.

[A]

And I'm not sure we read a single question. Like, literally not a single question that was like, hey man, actually I'm not good at being a good spouse. Can you help? I don't think we read a question.

[B]

No, there was not one.

[A]

Yeah. So like, honestly, I think every listener should pause and go, hey man, like, am I in my heart trying to serve my spouse? Like Jesus came, came to serve.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If two people do that, their marriage is gonna be fine 100% of the time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In conflict. I'll keep going through these. In conflict. In a contract relationship, the performance gets recorded. Like we literally write down a sheet of paper.

[B]

Well, and then, you know, you're. That's. It starts the keeping a record of wrong too. When you're recording the performance there.

[A]

That's it. In a marriage covenant, we do not keep a record of wrongs.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, like, every. What we do again, we keep going back next week. But like, every argument is not an archeological dig. Where I go back to the 11 things that you did in the history of our marriage that ties to this one thing we're talking about right now. Like, hey, we don't. That's like literally a rule. We don't do that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

We don't. We don't do that. Okay. Falling short. In a contract, failure gets punished. So that's literally in a contract. It's if then clause. And if you break the clause, we spell out what your consequences are going to be in a marriage. In a Christian marriage, your failure and my failure was already punished at the cross. So we refuse to crucify each other for each other's sins.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

We don't do it.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Just some dynamics. In a contract, it's a professional relationship. We're like co workers. It's emotionally, physically sterile. In a covenant, this is very personal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a blend of law and love. A blend of law and love.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Those are good. That's from.

[B]

That's a lot more fun.

[A]

I know that's from Driscoll. That's another Bible teacher. Those are fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Anything else you want to add?

[B]

I don't think so. That was great.

[A]

Okay, I need to talk about divorce and remarriage. And then you want to do these Q and A's.

[B]

Yeah, after you do.

[A]

Okay, let me talk about divorce, remarriage, and then we'll. We'll hit some of these kind of spicy questions that we got here. So one of the. Honestly, it's. Honestly, it's. One of the questions is, hey, there were a ton of questions about, my husband did this. My spouse did this. Will God forgive me if I divorce? Is it okay to divorce? So let me talk about the theology of this really quick. If you're listening and you're in a rough marriage, first of all, I want to tell you what statistics show is that couples who go through an extremely hard season and they just stick it out, those actually end up being the happiest couples in the long run.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So one, there's hope. So a couple things, let me say here. Jesus said this. He said what? God has joined together. Let not man separate. Okay. So what he's saying is, don't you go to the courthouse and undo what you did at God's house. He's saying, don't do that. His intention was for marriage to be a lifelong covenant. Okay. Now, but you know, before I say these things on where the Bible does spell out biblically permissible reasons for divorce, what I would say is it's supposed to be a last resort, not a first option. So these are scenarios where somebody may seek a divorce, but it's not you must or you should. I actually would say. I'd encourage you. Try. Yeah, even. Even in some of these situations, I'm going to describe, describe, try and see if the Lord can redeem the thing. Okay, so I'll just read it. First Corinthians 7 says this to the married. I give this command. And then he says, not I, but the Lord. And he's. He's saying that because Paul's quoting Jesus, a wife must not separate from her husband, but if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband, and a husband must not divorce his wife. So it's. The Bible is just saying, like, hey, this is supposed to be a lifelong covenant. Okay, so there's. There's two scenarios where the Bible spells out. Okay, actually, it might. Might be okay for you to move there. Number one is the case of physical adultery. Okay, this is Matthew 5, 31 and 32. I'm going to read it. Jesus says, it has been said anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except. And then he gives a clause, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. So, like, I know this is like super, like, not super unpeacey, but what this is saying is if two people get an unbiblical divorce, that actually God has not given you permission to seek a divorce in that scenario, you might be legally divorced in the state's eyes. You are not spiritually divorced in God's eyes. And he's actually saying if you enter into another marriage under those scenarios, you are committing adultery. That's what that's saying. I want to read it one more time, verse 32. But I tell you, anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality makes her the victim of adultery. And anyone who, who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. I do that. That's how grave and serious this is. But what I want to point out is he said, except for sexual immorality, he's saying that that act of physical adultery, it violates the nature of the covenant at such a deep level that he's going, hey, in that case you might, you, you may seek a divorce. You know, I would say maybe after trying to see if God could redeem it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't have anything to add there, I'm assuming.

[B]

No, that. That's good.

[A]

Yeah. The only other one is that the scriptures clearly spell out is in 1st Corinthians 7:15, in the early church, a ton of women got saved and the dude, not as many dudes were getting saved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so Paul starts addressing this because what happened is women are following Jesus and then it made some of their husbands mad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they're like, hey, actually these women were going, man, actually I can't worship that false God with you or whatever it was. So some of them start leaving. So then Paul does this. First Corinthians 7:15. He says to the rest, I say this, if any brother has a wife who is not a believer, so it's actually reversed right here. And she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. So it's like, hey man, if you get saved and your wife doesn't, as long as she's willing to stay with you, don't divorce. You can't divorce her. Verse 13. And if a woman has a husband that's not a believer, is he. If he's willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife. In other words, you have a spiritual influence on them. You should actually like lean in because you might be the instrument God uses to save your unbelieving spouse. As we stand right there and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified. Excuse me, sanctified through a believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean. As it is, they are holy. He's saying there's a way, like your presence in your kids lives has a sanctifying effect. You're having a spiritually positive influence there. So like, that's another reason. Do it for the kids. Right then, next verse. But if. Here's the other, the only other scenario that the Bible clearly spells out, biblically permissible divorce. But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so the brother or sister is not bound. In such circumstances, God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? So, so the other scenario is abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. He says right here, that act also violates the Covenant so deeply that it says, quote, you are not bound in such circumstances. So those are the two circumstances where it's like God's. Like, it's actually okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Release your conscience and it's okay to remarry.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In those scenarios.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. One thing I just want to say, because I hear this often, it's just, well, people will talk about being divorced because they were just unhappy and they should be happy. And that's just not a. Biblically, that's not right. And so I think it's just like, hey, you need to examine your heart and step into it and do what you can to fight for the happiness of your marriage.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great. We could. Honestly, if I ever preach this again. Well, we should. You and me should sit down and write. Okay, Here are reasons the Bible does not say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not happy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

She doesn't pay enough attention to me. She doesn't sleep with me often enough. He. He doesn't invest in me emotionally enough. Like, those things are sad, but they're not biblical reasons for divorce.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you made a vow before your spouse and before the Lord.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's where you. You dig in, you own your part, and you just, you start praying for your spouse and in. You do whatever you can to make it. Make it happen, make it work.

[A]

That's right. Let me say one other quick thing. Hey, can I, can you throw that. It's the Brad Wilcox thing up there. And dude, first of all, before, before they toss that up, if somebody, somebody's listening that has been divorced, I am in no way showing this to, like, make somebody feel shame. The Lord can redeem what the locusts. The years the locusts have eaten. I'm not saying this stuff. I'm putting this up here so that people can see that God's design is actually good and violating God's design has severe consequences. I'm putting it up here for people who Satan might be lying to to tell you, man, actually, your life is going to be better if you get a divorce and it's actually not going to hurt anybody. So you can go, you can go find this tweet and click on this link. Brad Wilcox, like, one of my favorite followers on X. But, dude, this was insane. And I read this last year, so. Okay, he just, he's a, He's a researcher. Total stud. He said, whoa, new study. Parental divorce is worse than death when it comes to kids educational attainment. With data from 17 countries from the Generations and gender survey, we found that parental divorce had a larger impact than parental death.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You click on that study and it's like, it starts showing that both the achievement and the emotional impacts of divorce on children. It actually, dude, this is so, this is great. What that, that one study at least shows, like, man, actually it is easier for a child when a parent dies.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So, like, this just. What, here's what, here's why I'm saying this, man, is our culture. It disciples people to treat marriage like this. Very expendable. Hey, dude, like, you're striking at the very spiritual nature of the cosmos.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when you go against the grain of the universe, you and your family are going to get some splinters. Yeah. Only other thing I'd say here, because a lot of people have this question, last thing I'd say is what is definitely a cause for at least separation is legitimate forms of abuse. And anytime I say that, I'm saying I say legitimate forms of abuse. Because as other people have said before me, in our culture, one of the most common forms of abuse is abuse of the word abuse. We're like, somebody's mean to me and anybody being mean to me is abuse or anybody making me feel a negative emotion is abuse. No, no, we're talking about legitimate forms of abuse, which by the way, are very real. That's very, very real. In those case, that is a severe sin that I think requires a spouse sometimes to separate in order to protect themselves. So that's the only thing I'd say.

[C]

Well, hey guys, one of the reasons we are intentional in creat these kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is we want to model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the word of God together and grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. For this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined a group, you need to get into Rooted. Rooted is a 10 week discipleship experience that helps you grow closer to God, build meaningful relationships and discover the purpose he has for your life. Rooted guides you to practice the seven rhythms of following Jesus to transition. Transform your faith from something you know, into something you actually live out every single day. And so whether you're exploring what it means to follow Jesus and you're ready to grow deeper in your faith, or maybe you're searching for people to do life with. Rooted is for you. Just text the word rooted to 20411 and our teams will follow up personally. Do not wait. Your next step. Start hearts now.

[A]

All right, so we're talking about marriage's covenant. Let's get into some of these things that were, you know, we received a few hundred questions, and they're kind of all up in there. You just want to go back and forth. You take one, I take one.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Actually, here we go. I'm going to start with this one. So one of the questions we got was, what are some ways a woman of God can drop hints without being the one to pursue the man? And so I thought that was a really good question.

[A]

It's a single girl.

[B]

Yeah, Single girl.

[A]

Yeah. I want a guy to ask me out, and he hadn't done it yet. What do I do?

[B]

Right? And so, I mean, I would just be like the lady in Song of Solomon. Just be in the same place that he is. Like, go to the places he goes, you know? But I do think, like, I do think it is appropriate for you to introduce yourself, start up a conversation. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. You can give appropriate compliments, like, oh, I noticed that you serve during this service. Or, you know, you've led our. Our life group tonight, and I just thought you did a really good job. Like, you know, there's nothing inappropriate if you're single. He's single. I'd say, just get in there, start a conversation.

[A]

Would you consider this an appropriate compliment? One of the best things you can do for any man is tell him his arms look big today.

[B]

I've told women to say that before, but not men. You not, like, I've said, told him that. To say that to their husbands. I was like, he'll like that. He will appreciate that.

[A]

There you go. Pray, seek the leadership of the Holy Spirit and do what he says. I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

But, yeah, Jaina would never have done that before we were dating. That.

[B]

No, no, no, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't have. But, yeah, I just. There's. I would just, you know, get in there, start a conversation, say hi, and see what happens. Happens.

[A]

Okay, we said this earlier, and I 100 mean when I'm. When I mean it, when I say it. Serve on the greeting team at your church or in the student ministry?

[B]

Yes. Yeah, Student ministries would be a great one. Because. Yeah, I was gonna say even more so than in kids ministry. Yeah.

[A]

Serve on grit. Well, I'm always gonna push people towards serving.

[B]

But I was just trying to. I was trying to figure out because, you know, the classes are kind of.

[A]

Well, the reason. So greeting. Greeting team is because, dude, you're gonna meet literally everybody in the church.

[B]

You are.

[A]

You are student ministry.

[B]

Sorry, but you gotta be strategic. You. You might want to change what door, you know.

[A]

Well, that gets assigned, you know.

[B]

Well, that's true. So.

[A]

But you can request.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Just trying to help.

[A]

That's right. Trying to help the student. I say student ministry because honestly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In general, lots, you know, a lot of single people serve in student ministry. The other thing is doing ministry with other people in an environment together. I think it's like, literally the best way to identify who would be a great spouse. So it's like you end up going to camp together, you end up going all the trips together. You know, you're at all the events. And so there's lots of people there. And honestly, you get to see a little bit of how they'd be as a parent.

[B]

Well, and you get to find out a lot about character because, like, when you're super tired with, you know, with student ministry stuff, because it, you know, you're up late, you're. And then you're up early and all that, and you just. You get it. Really see someone's true personality.

[A]

What about this, Jana? Because I bet this young lady is wondering this. Should I just ask him out?

[B]

Oh, gosh, I don't. I don't know. I. I mean, I don't know. I personally would want to wait until someone was pursuing me. Like, that's kind of not how I would like to start a relationship personally.

[A]

Yeah, I think, first of all, I'm always really quick to say, where the Bible speaks, we should be speaking. Where the Bible remains silent, we should remain silent. There is no obviously command against a girl asking a guy out. But what dating is, is this, hey, man, we're auditioning for marriage. In marriage is supposed to be. Husband is the head of the wife. So he's supposed to be exercising some leadership. What you're hoping to see is he's demonstrating for you. He could be good at that role. So if you're the one that's having to. He's passive, and you're the one having to lead. Not a great sign. Not a great sign. But it's also not a sin to just kind of say, like, hey, I'd love to hang out with you sometime and just see what happens.

[B]

Yes, yes. I do want to interject this here because it was very beneficial for us. So Josh and I were set up on a blind date. And so if you have friends who are single, like, and other friends who are single, like, maybe you can get them together somehow and try to help in that way. Because I love. I mean, I love our story. I love how we met. And it was a huge blessing in.

[A]

Like, in the young adults ministry at Lake Point. It's a lot of our. I call them our JV Senior citizens. Their ages start with, by the way, this is going to be us. Not in. Not too long. Their ages start with a 5, 6, or 7. You know, in about 10 years, we'll be creeping into that territory. They're the ones that lead some of the groups. And young adults.

[B]

I'm so glad they're there.

[A]

Me, too. And what I'm saying is, like, hey, dude, a. I would encourage all those people, like, be willing to try to play matchmaker.

[B]

People have kids also near the same ages, you know, and the other thing.

[A]

Is, nothing wrong with alerting them, like, hey, if you ever see a. You ever see a guy, you ever see a girl that might be a good fit, let me know.

[B]

Yes, I think that's smart.

[A]

I like godly couples. Playing matchmaker.

[B]

I know. Worked for us.

[A]

Shout out, Jeff. Mary Beth.

[B]

Yep. You're the best.

[A]

All right, I want to do this one. Do the one. This. If you fall into sexual sin and dating. This was a really, really common question. Okay. And we'll blur out the people that. That put it in the question. If you fall into sexual sin and dating, do you flee via breakup or ask forgiveness and set boundaries? So what I say is, first of all. And then there were other questions, like, hey, me and my boyfriend, me and my girlfriend, we made some mistakes sexually while we were dating. Can we be forgiven? So, first of all, hey, guys, we're grace people, right? We're great. That's like, literally our thing. We're team Jesus. We're grace people. So, yes, of course, there's forgiveness for every sin under the sun. Of course there is. This is really difficult because, like, the spectrum of things that could involve is so huge. So I think I would say yes to forgiveness. But you should be saying no to patterns. I think that's what I'm saying. If you're in a dating relationship and either you're in a situation where he wants sexual sin to happen and you don't, and you're sort of begrudgingly guilting and badgering him into. Okay, I guess we shouldn't run, run, run, run, run. He's already demonstrating to you he doesn't care about the purity of marriage. If he's demonstrating that to you before marriage, he will probably demonstrate that to you after marriage, and you don't want that. So that's number one. But then number two, if it's like a pattern and it's like, like all like, over and over and over and over and over, and there's not actual repentance, and nobody's trying to set boundaries. Yep. You need to get out of there.

[B]

Yeah. I would agree with you. You just walk, like, walk in repentance. Continue to walk in repentance.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Don't look back.

[A]

That's right. All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You want to go? You pick one.

[B]

All right. Yeah. How do you prioritize your spouse when you are in the toddler tren? So I'm gonna couple that one with the another question that was kind of similar. We got was, what does it look like to prioritize your husband over your children? So those are kind of. Kind of close. And so I think, you know, just making sure that whenever we talk about keeping your spouse a priority, like, obviously, there are other. Other things you have going on in your life. You have a job, you're taking care of your kids. These take a great deal of time. So when we talk about pr, like, it's not like, okay, make sure you're giving him a lot more time than you give your kids. Like, that's not what we're saying. It's just, you know, it requires your focus. Okay? So, like, when you're focused, you're focusing on, like, raising your children. And that's going to take just different types of energy as they grow. It's going to require more of you sometimes than others. It's just, you know, it's just different. It changes. But you need to have, like, kind of have a plan. Make sure that your husband or in this situation, because these came. Both came from women, is a priority. A priority to you. You prioritize that by making time for him in your schedule. And so that needs to include, you know, a date night. And that doesn't have to be. When we say date nights, that doesn't have to be you leaving your house. You can have a date night at home. And one question we got was like, well, what are ideas for date nights at home? Well, what do you guys like to do together? That's Kind of couple specific. It could be dinner and you watch a movie. It could be. Sometimes we take walks. We sit in our rocking chairs and watch the sunset. Like, I don't know, just like, what do you enjoy? We like to get in the pool and hang out. Like, so what do you all like? What do you enjoy?

[A]

Can I interject something?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, yeah, because I want to be clear about this. I've known amazing married couples who did not have a technical date night. Like, one of my pastor mentors, Larry Osborne, he's like, that's not our thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

When we say date or date night here, all we're talking about is intentional time together where you connect with each other.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's what we're talking about.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So just finding out what do you all like, and that's. It's okay if you like stuff that Josh and I don't and that. Or we do things different. It's not. This is not a cookie cutter type thing. You know, it's just. It's very much what fits your family, what fits you two and your. Your style. But, like, you know, just planning that, making sure that you are not giving the last to him or nothing. Um, so it's like you. You. You together need to decide that time on your. Your calendars. Um, I, like, another thing is just when he comes home, like, stop what you're doing, greet him, like, let your kids see how much you really love your husband and that you're glad he's home. And, you know, that just. I don't know, it's just let him know that you care about him and he's a priority.

[A]

You've become great at this.

[B]

Well, thank you. Thank you. Well, I'm always very happy when you're home, so it's a win. But the other thing, especially if you're in the toddler trenches, I. I totally get that. I understand. I remember, because we're not too far removed from that. And so I just. I do. I remember how tired I was during that time. And so it really does come down to planning. So there's some things you can do just to make your day better and easier, have structure and have boundaries. So I created a schedule. And. And especially with, like, young kids, like, oh, wow, the sooner you can sleep train, the better, because that's going to. You're actually going to be sleeping through the night. They're sleeping through the night. You're going to have a lot more energy and feel a whole lot better. Once that's happening, have make sure they're doing naps. And those need to be on a schedule so it's predictable. And those change over time. But you just adjust your schedule as needed. One thing that we, we did is just our kids learning how to play on their own. So we would do, when they were really late, blanket time. Blanket time.

[A]

That was a life changer.

[B]

It was. And I would set a timer. We, I mean, I think we started.

[A]

Out, we got it from baby wise.

[B]

Yeah. I. I think we started out for like five minutes. They saw on that blanket for like five minutes and they played. And, you know, and then I would fold laundry or clean the kitchen or do something in the same room. And then it kind of, you know, it just grew and it just, it's good. They learn how to play on their own.

[A]

So we eventually got to the spot where, like all of our kids as infants, they could stay on a blanket and entertain themselves for 30 or 40 minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like as infants. So then obviously what that does is that gives mama a chance to like, okay, let me rest, let me replenish so that she's got something to give to husband.

[B]

Absolutely. When you get so, I mean, so you're not just so exhausted. So schedules are a good thing. They are a blessing. You have energy left at the end of the day. And then one thing I would say is once your kids are a little too big for a blanket time and they're not taking naps anymore, do a rest time. They're allowed to play in their room, but they know from this and this time that they've got to stay in their room and play, hang out. They can read their book or whatever, but that allows you to, you know, just kind of prepare for your husband's arrival or get stuff done around the house, but just giving you a minute so you have something left over at the end of the day.

[A]

Yeah. So the big principle here is like, it goes back to the marriage covenant. Okay. You're one flesh with your husband. You're one flesh with your wife. So your job. What that. What that's indicating is priority and intimacy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So your job is to create a life where priority and intimacy with your husband or with your wife can happen. So in the same way that if a husband. I would talk to a husband different than a wife. Are you trying to say something?

[B]

Yeah, you. You ahead there. There's one more thing I want to say.

[A]

So in the same way, if a husband is working so many hours and is putting so much into his career that he literally has no Time, energy, emotional capacity to give to his wife. I'd say, hey, bro, figure it out. Hey, you know, you don't talk to a woman that way, but to a man, I'd say, hey, bro, figure it out. Put your big boy pants on and figure it out. Because that's what men do. Figure it out. You have to rearrange your work schedule, your commitments, that kind of thing, so that you create the margin it requires to treat your wife as your one flesh. And your priority. Well, I'd say it more gently to a wife is, hey, hey, we need to. We need to put our big girl pants on, and we need to figure it out. How do you. If you are parenting in such a way that you have nothing left to give to your husband, it's wrong and you need to figure it. Figure it out.

[B]

Right. One other thing I wanted to add to that is, like, sometimes the overwhelm or the tiredness is like, you're also in correlation with the season of life. Less sleep and all of that. But you're also doing so many things outside of your house at the same time. And like, stay at home, moms can do this even just like, you know anyone who's also in the same season working outside of the home. But you can, like, have. Have so many play dates set up, you can have so many volunteer things going on. You can be doing so many different things that you know you have nothing left. And so I think it's just praying about what is the best use of your time. And there's a season for everything. That's what you gotta remember. Seasons, they come to an end. They don't last forever. This is a short season. It's gonna change. You're gonna have more time around adults at someday. But like, leave that adult interaction and. Or make sure you're making time for that with your husband. Men.

[A]

Yeah, I think something we've talked about, Jana, is the whole thing of, like. Because honestly, I think what mamas can do, especially is. I do in general. I think women have more overactive consciences than men. They generally have more sensitive consciences and they're more empathetic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then. So mama, her empathy is. Is aimed at kiddos. So they see crying kiddo. And both their conscience and their empathy is aimed in that direction. And really, sometimes what I've had to encourage you towards is, hey, babe, remember, your first priority is just like on the airplane, put the oxygen mask on Mama first. Hey. Your first priority is to keep you good. You gotta keep you good. Are you Happy? Are you replenished? Do you have energy to pour out to be a positive presence in the house and towards me? If not, then let's stop everything else and figure out what we need to do to get oxygen mask on mama first so that she's good to be able to help the rest of the family.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. And that' sthere is nothing wrong with having to pull back from different things at different times to make that happen. And so I've had to do that. And that's something we always evaluate, like, what is best and right in this season of life.

[A]

Absolutely. And I would just say to husbands, hey, man, this is when your job as the head of your family kicks in. If you start noticing mama ain't good, hey, well, hey, bro, get in there and help her figure it out. Okay? So that's when, like, sometimes just gently, I would just say this whenever I hear the couple, you know, and you know, oh, man, we just got, you know, had our first date, just us went to dinner for the first time in five years. Internally, I'm like, like, oh, my goodness. Bless your heart.

[B]

I know.

[A]

What have we been doing? Why didn't you husband get in there and figure this out way earlier? And hey, just. Can you speak to us? Because a lot of times that's mama. That's mama getting emotional and saying, no, I don't trust anybody else, and I can't be away from my kids. And that's. That's our problem.

[B]

And I think that's where, hey, like, he is. He is seeking to bless you. He is trying to bless your life. And that's where he, you, like, respect and honor his leadership in that because he is doing something for you. He's doing something for you as a couple. And this is good for your kids to see their parents, love one another, enjoy being together. And so I think that's an area. It's like, take notice. Like, hey, don't get mad at him for noticing. Like, you. You just need a break. Like, that's. Don't get defensive. Don't be offended. Like, he is trying to bring you blessing and receive that and honestly thank him and thank the Lord that he, you know, is noticing that.

[A]

That's great. Yeah. Last I'll just on this and let's move to the next one. This is why I. I cannot strongly encourage against elongated co sleeping. More like, listen, I love you. I think you're absolutely crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Again, that's the whole thing. There should be things happening in your marriage bed that would scar your Children for life if they saw them. And you need to create an environment that those things can happen frequently in the marriage bed. That's one way that a spouse prioritizes her husband is. Is creating an environment where those things can happen frequently. That's why we honestly were so aggressive with sleep training. Yes, we literally remember that. Where did we get that? Did. Did we hire. We paid something because Hudson.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Can I share about why it was so difficult to sleep during Hudson, or no. Should I not.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, it. Sure, yeah.

[A]

I mean, yeah, yeah, Hudson. You know, actually, I'm not. Actually, I'm not. Hudson was difficult.

[B]

He had colic. He had reflux.

[A]

There were some medical issues.

[B]

Screams would scream all the time for eight months. This is eight months straight. And so it was very difficult. And then.

[A]

And then we eventually, like, literally found an online thing where they, you know, help you sleep, train your kid. And. But the reason we got aggressive with that and you got to do the cry it out thing, which can be real hard on mamas sometimes. And that's another one where it's like, hey, babe, I love you, but you gotta be good. And we got. And we gotta be good. And you're not gonna be good, and we're not gonna be good till you're getting good sleep.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so it was like, hey, Yep, we are sleep training.

[B]

Yes. And so what I do wanna say now, but is that, hey, like, we got to the point he was no longer having reflex. He was no longer having colic. This was just a habitual. I want mom awake every, you know, so many minutes. And so it was time to sleep train.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it was time. All right, let's move to the next one real quick. Can we do the. Let's do the. Actually, I'll do this one. Do the dating one. How long should you date? Can you pull that guy up? There's one on there. There it is. Yeah. So this is a lot of questions about how long should you date? How long should you be engaged? That kind of thing. And again, all this goes back to what is a marriage covenant? That's what we're going back to. So let's talk about what is wrong with the American marriage process. Okay, so the answer to this question is, when you're dating, you're not dating. You're deciding. There is nothing in the Bible about dating. There's everything in the Bible about deciding. Okay? So the answer to the question, how long should you date? You should date just long enough to decide dating Is deciding you should date just long enough to decide, is this the type of person that I want to become one with? And we've already talked about what you're looking for there. The different podcasts. Okay? Now this is where a lot of people get it wrong. Okay? They, they date forever and ever and ever. They date for five years, then. Then in our culture, sometime in those five years, then they start living together and sleeping together. Then after living together and sleeping together and being married for five years or being living together for three years, then they get engaged. By the way, literally every data point that has ever been produced shows that people who live together before they're married divorce at extremely higher rates than people who wait until they're married to live together. So do not trick yourself.

[B]

Right?

[A]

When you start living together, you are not practicing for marriage. You are practicing for divorce. Okay? So that then they get engaged and then they do do. And listen, we're not judging anybody for this. We're talking about wisdom. Then they do like a three year engagement. Goodness, A two year engagement. They'll do that kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did we do?

[B]

Well, this is definitely descriptive, not prescriptive, but we dated for four months, got engaged, and we were engaged for four months and got married. And we, and we say, if we could do anything different, we would have probably got married sooner.

[A]

Do it faster. Yes. And we have Bible verses for why. The Bible verses for why. First Corinthians 7 says they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. So we were honoring God and how we related each other and physically and. And that's one reason we did it. Quick, short engagement.

[B]

It's been great for us.

[A]

Been great for us. Been great for us. So here's back when we used to do a lot of premarital counseling. Can I make a proposal to change the American marriage process? Because Janet and I think it is very broken. So if somebody's younger and they're single and they're like, how long should I date and how should I do all this stuff?

[B]

Stuff.

[A]

Here's what we would gently. Here's what we would gently suggest. Okay? You, you start dating and obviously you're not doing married people things before you're married. So you're dating and you're doing it in public places and you're hanging out with other godly people and you're getting wise counsel while you're dating. You need to have at least three other godly people that are older and married and have good marriages whose opinions you Seek on whether or not they think you guys would be a good, a good fit. This person be a good fit. The reason for that is when emotions get high, logic gets real low. That's the whole thing of if you go to the grocery store hungry, the sushi flavored Oreos start looking really good. So you don't want to be dating a sushi flavored Oreo and it looks good because you're really hungry. You don't want to settle for Mr. Right now and not be able to wait for Mr. Right. So you're dating with these people and then it's like, okay, what do godly people think about this person? You're laughing.

[B]

No, I'm not laughing.

[A]

All right, then as soon as you think that this is probably somebody that you're like, we actually think we want to marry each other and that this might be a good idea, immediately you go find a good Bible preaching church and you immediately, you immediately start doing premarital counseling in a Bible preaching place. Do it together. At the end of the premarital counseling, you ask the person or the leader that's in the premarital counseling if they think it is wise for you to get married. And you genuinely ask them. I see this. I literally have faces popping in my head right now. So you're not looking for permission, you're looking for wisdom. You genuinely ask them, do you think it is a wise decision for us to get married? While you're looking at this stuff, there are four things you need to make sure you have alignment on. This is really important. Data shows that if you've got alignment on these four things, your chances of divorce like literally get cut in half. Faith, money, kids and extended family. You're looking for alignment on those four things. Faith, money, kids and extended family. All right? Now if all those checks, then you, then you get engaged after you've done the premarital counseling, you do that stuff. Now what you're going to do that's different than anybody else is you're looking for a very short engagement. Why? Because the Bible says they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. If you are a young red blooded American or if you're a young red blooded anybody and you are not having sex before you get married, you are going to want to do married people things. And if, by the way, if you don't want to do married people things, that's a sign that something's wrong. Okay, so you're gonna do a short engagement and then here's what you're gonna do. After a short engagement, you're gonna do an easy, low cost, low friction backyard wedding. Like, how much do you spend on your wedding dress?

[B]

Oh, like maybe. Maybe $500.

[A]

Yeah. Which, I don't know wedding dress costs, but apparently that's cheap.

[B]

I. From what I've. I don't know what I've been told. Yes.

[A]

So you're gonna. This is what you're gonna do. You're gonna low cost, low friction wedding, like backyard, come hang out, y' all kind of thing after a short engagement. Then here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna use the money that you would have used on a big, expensive wedding, if your parents are good with it, and ask them if you can invest it in an appreciating asset, like a down payment for a house.

[B]

That's a good idea.

[A]

Then what you're going to do is if you're just dead set on it, and I want to know what you think about this. You know, Jana, because it's usually the lady that wants the big, expensive wedding. Then what you're going to do, if you're just dead set on doing a big expensive thing that takes a really, really, really long time to plan, then here's all you gotta do. You can still do it, but just plan to throw a celebration of the marriage party when you get back from the honeymoon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

I think that's. I think that's a great. A great idea. I mean, there are times. I mean, hindsight's always 20 20, right? So I. And I. I didn't know at the time I would still feel like this way 20 years later. But it. I think even for how, like our ceremony, I. And we didn't. We only had close relatives at ours.

[A]

But quick. Quick and easy.

[B]

But, I mean, I think I would have even, I don't know, done that differently. And, you know, rather than inviting everybody, just. Yeah. Just ended up just being us and our parents and siblings and called a day. I don't know, you know, and use the money that we paid for all the other stuff for a down payment. I think I. You know, I didn't know then I would think that now, but.

[A]

But let me just say, when we did premarital counseling, I would always, like, encourage people towards this. We had two couples take us up on it and do exactly what I just said. Both of them, for years later have been like, thank you, thank you, thank you. Great decision.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, you do another one then. We need to talk about this demonic activity that's in the national news.

[B]

Yes. We got asked. Do you have open access to each other's phones?

[A]

Dude, I can't. Hey, let me. The number of questions about. Yeah, here it is. Do you have open access to each of those phones? The number of questions like this, and. Hey, is it. Okay, show the other one about keeping secrets from your spouse. Like, huge number of questions about access to each other's phones and keeping secrets from. Yeah, that's hilarious. There it is. Should I keep secrets in marriage? I. E. Other people telling me in confidence. Huge number of questions. Janet, you start talking, then I'll talk.

[B]

Yeah, we definitely have access to each other's phones. I mean, that. That is not something that we keep secret. We have each other's passwords. Like, it's. Yeah, we just. We don't keep secrets like that. And there's not a need to in marriage. Like, there's nothing on my phone that Josh shouldn't be able to come and look at. Like, so. Absolutely. So if that's an issue, if that's something going on, you all need to sit down and have a discussion on that, and you need to fix that.

[A]

I'm not imputing this on somebody else's marriage, but if you were telling me like, hey, actually, I don't want you in my phone, like, I would be going, well, what do you got on there that. That you don't want me to know about? It would be a very, very trust eroding action.

[B]

Yes, totally agree.

[A]

Now, I do want to address this because it's tangential.

[B]

That one's different.

[A]

Should I keep secrets in marriage? That is other people telling me things in confidence. So I would actually object to the way this is worded. She says, should I keep secrets? So I think every Christian needs to figure this out. We actually teach our kids this. Parents, I highly encourage you to teach your kids this. This. Christians need to differentiate between surprises. Secrecy, and privacy. Those are three different things. Surprises, secrecy, and privacy. We say yes to surprises. There's some things that I'll plan for you that I'll tell the kids. Don't tell mom, because when she walks in the door, we're gonna have this set up and da, da, da. That's. That's a surprise. That's not a secret.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Privacy is, for instance, to this question. Like, when you go out with your friends, you're a vault. Like, Jana does not tell me anything that she talks about when she goes out with her girlfriends. That's not secrecy. That's appropriate privacy. Secrecy is when I'm hiding something from you because I want to keep a part of me hidden from you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what I would say is Christians say yes to surprises, yes to privacy. We say no to secrecy because it's a demonstration of distrust and it harms the one flesh nature of the marriage.

[B]

Absolutely, 100%.

[A]

All right, Jana, let's do this next one. Do the one on Twin Peaks and Hooters. Jana, what are your opinions on husbands who go to places like Twin Peaks and Hooters?

[B]

Yeah, you don't need to be doing that.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

No.

[A]

How about no. How about, like, you know, first of all, can I just say, I love the fact that a lot of the questions very clearly come from people who are. Who are. Yeah, they're. They're figuring it out. Maybe brand new Christians, and they literally didn't know. That's not a good idea. But the verse I said earlier from Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, we're not supposed to do any form of sexual immorality. The Greek word is porneia. Hey, heads up, guys. What happens at places like Twin Peaks and Hooters? Those outfits were literally considered pornography 30 years ago in America. So, yeah, like, we should not be going places as husbands that are intentionally designed to make men lust after women who are not their wife.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Pretty slam dunk.

[B]

There it was.

[A]

Let's do, like, two more. What do you. What do you got over there?

[B]

Yep. Okay. Is a husband stress, which leads to anger and shortness, a reason to pause on sex?

[A]

Wait, read it one more time. This is. This is hilarious question.

[B]

Is a husband stress, which leads to anger, shortness, a reason to pause on sex? So, no. And I think having sex might even help alleviate some of the stress.

[A]

Let me just say it does. One of the physiological purposes of it.

[B]

Yes. So things that I would say to this person is, so, you know, you need to be asking, like, so why is he stressed? So, as his helper, what are some ways you can come alongside of him and help him? So when Josh has an extra heavy load and just a lot going on, like, my first reaction is, hey, how can I help you? What can I lift? And, you know, he does the same thing for me, so I want to say that too, but I'm always seeking, like, hey, how can I be a helper to you right now? And doesn't help your marriage to purposely withhold sex or use it as a manipulation to get your spouse to do what you want them to do? And so that's an evil thing.

[A]

Jezebel women do.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

They use the power God has given a wife for her husband. A Jezebel woman, that's obviously Old Testament. And Revelation 3, she uses that power to manipulate and control him.

[B]

Him. Yeah. And it's just. I mean, it's just not coming in either, because you're like, hey, you're not being what you should be to me right now because you're stressed out. So I'm not gonna be what I should be to you right now. So we don't want to do that. And you just have to remember you're one flesh. Okay? So you are. You want to walk in unity. You are a team, and a team has to work together. So what can you do to take a step towards him, to. To help here, to be the initiat? Just, I don't know, like, figure out why he's having a hard time and be the helper you need to be in that situation.

[A]

Yeah. A great marriage is. This is Ephesians 5. It says, Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. So a great marriage is. I'm walking into every scenario going, how can I bless and serve you, Jana?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And by the way, that's not conditional.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's not based on if you're acting. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm just. This is a covenant, not a contract. I'm walking in going, how can I bless and serve you? And then you're walking into every scenario going, josh, how could I bless and serve you? Sometimes when I see people whose. Whose marriages are rough because of this dynamic, I'm just like, man, guys, like, it doesn't have to be this way.

[B]

No.

[A]

And honestly, I'm like, Janet, like, what we have is really special.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, man, you can have that.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. I want that for each marriage. So. So much like to be enjoying one another, to be having fun with one another. You pour into each other, you serve one another, and when you're doing that, there is flourishing. There is beauty and enjoyment in all things.

[A]

In fact, can you show that comment? I just want to. I want to encourage everybody. Can you share that comment from the lady in her 60s?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

I love this so much.

[B]

This is such good encouragement.

[A]

You read it, Jana. Wait, let's see if she. Let's. We're gonna have to start making these little snapshots bigger so you can find the right one quicker. Let's see here. There it is. Okay.

[B]

She says, 60s, happily married, great sex life, younger married. Need to hear it gets better with age. Yeah. Thank you for that encouragement.

[A]

And honestly, I think, like, younger Christian couples, they need to hear that story way more often.

[B]

They do. They do, because I think they hear the opposite so often. And so, you know what I'm. I'm seeing. I'm seeing a woman who do. She's not let, like, the aging parts of life, like, change anything. She's. She's probably worked through it really hard, and they have made it happen. They've made it work. And now she's saying it's. It gets better with age.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Amen. And we've seen the same thing, like, all the stuff she's talking about. It's. We've gotten better. It's gotten better. It's a lot more fun.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's great. Let me do one last one, and then we're going to tap Carlos in here in a second. We're going to talk about. It's going to be a really hard, emotional gear shift.

[B]

I know. This is a big change.

[A]

Big change. Right, Carlos? We really are an emotional gear shift. We're going to talk about the Minnesota shooter and, like, the most overt demonic activity I've ever seen play itself out in the national news cycle in my life. I'll do one last one, because I think we had a few questions about this, and it helps people understand what a marriage is. So this person asks, do the. Actually, I'm not sure if we have the screenshot for you. They said, hey, we got married in a courthouse. Should we also get married in a church? He says no. I say yes. Okay. I'm probably gonna answer in a way that people would not expect. Actually, you're fine. You don't need to. I would say you don't have to. So what this stems from? Or were you gonna say something?

[B]

I was gonna say, if it's a desire, like, if it's something that you all want to do, totally fine.

[A]

Dude, people renew their vows at churches all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do it all the time with their. A rooty group leader, a life group leader, like, all the time, man. That's great. But what that question stems from is some people have the mentality that the church is spiritual, but the government is not. And by the way, this goes into the whole Christian nationalism conversation that we don't have time for. But this is. We're going to do a little Bible nerd thing here for a second. Abraham Kuyper is a great. I think he was a Swiss theologian.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's called sphere sovereignty. Abraham Kuyper Pointed out in the scriptures that in the Bible, God establishes three institutions. God establishes the family of the church and the state. There's a whole thing about how those things relate to each other. What you will notice in human history is that is that they are really sequential and mutually reinforcing. So churches and states are only as strong as the families that comprise them. Which, by the way, anytime a government makes a policy that does not reinforce the health of the family, it's. It's cutting out its own trunk from underneath itself, then you're going to notice that the state generally is only as healthy as the churches in that state, in that nation. And the state can be organized in such a way that it either harms or hurts, strengthens or weakens churches and families. And unless nations are really, really dumb, they are going to create, which we have some of that sometimes. They're going to create policies that strengthen churches and families. Okay, so anyway, this question comes from the belief that, man, the church, is spiritual, but the government is not. That's actually not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that God established the family, the church and the state. So that actually in the Bible, I'll just read this. Romans 13, one says this. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. So what some people might think is man, when a pastor does something, he's acting on behalf of God, but when a civil magistrate does something, he or she is not acting on behalf of God. Wrong. That's actually wrong. Actually, God has established the governing authorities, and when they do something, if they are aligned with the purposes of God, they are also acting on behalf of the living God. So just to alleviate your conscience, young lady, when you stood in front of a civil magistrate and you eloped or a judge did something, the Lord was actually. He instituted that moment. He was pleased by that moment. And the governing authority was actually his instrument in that moment to bind on earth what has been bound in heaven. So you're good.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

You're actually good. If you want to do it, great. But you don't have to do it.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Okay. Do you want to do the hardest. Were there any other questions? Just like we absolutely have to do that one.

[B]

Oh, I think there are so many and so many good ones.

[A]

I think we. I think we got the main ones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can ask.

[B]

Okay. You want. Do you want me to do the one about when you don't like your husband?

[A]

Okay. You're Gonna do one more. Yes, we need to do this one. And then, Carlos, you're up.

[B]

Okay. All right, so the last question we'll do is what?

[A]

Here it is.

[B]

What do you do when you just don't like your husband? Okay, so first of all, if the.

[A]

Husband is listening, quit being somebody your wife doesn't like. Let's start there.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know the fullness of this situation, what's going on. I'm just. So I'm going to do kind of a. Just a generalized response here. But this didn't happen overnight. Okay. So this is not something you just woke up one day and didn't. Didn't like him. This has been something that has been building over time. So usually that starts with taking an offense, and you never dealt with it. You started to build up a record of wrong. You. You started developing resentment against him, and now all you can see are all the things he does wrong and none of the things that he does right. And all, like, you're just. Yeah. Seeing what you don't like about him and nothing that you do like about him. So you gotta. In this situation, like, ask yourself, like, why did. Why did you marry him? Because there was a reason, right? So when you. When you married him, you very much liked him. You wanted to be with him. So think about, what did you like about him then? What drew you to him then? And that man is still there. And so you're gonna have to start, you know, honestly, if there's one conversation, it's just. And we're gonna talk way more about communication next week. But you need to be communicating. Like, if. If there is an offense there, you need to start dealing with it. You need to talk things through. You need to get to the point where you're reconciled to one another. But one little kind of phrase that we use in our house is be a hummingbird, not a buzzer.

[A]

That's right. We use it for parenting in particular.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But it applies to marriage.

[B]

It does. And so it's like. What we mean by that is like, so a hummingbird, you know, they are going to fly over. Everything else could be dead around them, like no vegetation or whatever. They're going to go find the one living thing and seek that.

[A]

If there's one flower in the middle of a desert, that hummingbird is going to find the one living thing, and it's going to descend on that thing.

[B]

It is. And you're much better at explaining this to me than I am. But if you want to go ahead and explain the buzzard to everybody.

[A]

Yeah. So then the buzzard is the exact opposite. A buzzard could be flying over. Over acres and acres and acres of living things. And if there's one dead thing in the middle of a field, it'll find the one dead thing and descend on that. So what we say in our family is we're gonna be hummingbirds, not buzzards.

[B]

Yes. So start noticing the things that you do like about him and then start praising him for that. Like, even if it's a small thing, like, you just notice he does. I don't know, it could be the smallest thing. Maybe he never takes out the trash, but, oh, wow, today he took out the trash. Just. Thank you so much. Like, that was such a blessing to me. It start with something small, just whatever you noticed or I don't know, I don't know what it is in your situation, but find something and just keep finding something else to, like, respect him for, to praise him for, to appreciate about him. And if you don't know, if you're like, I'm just, I don't know, pray and ask God, like, hey, give me eyes to see. Right now. I don't have eyes to see. Help me to repent of the things that I need to repent, repent of and. And have eyes to see how I can. I can help this situation and what I can do to. To see what he is doing, because I'm sure that he is. He is getting a lot of things right. You're just not seeing them right now.

[A]

You nailed it. I just. Hey, man, you gotta decide. Are you gonna nag the negative or are you gonna praise the positive? And for a woman, that's the way God's designed it. A woman has a unique power with her words over. Over a man. Man. And I use the word over a man because it is a power that God has given women.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And so it's like, what women have to understand. That's why there's so many Bible verses that warrant against the nagging or the contentious wife. Because the Bible acknowledges the creational reality that a woman's words have a unique power over her husband.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so it's like, how are you going to nag the negative? You're going to praise the positive. What a. What a. What a wise woman of God does in her marriage is she finds the positive thing. She's a husband hummingbird. And then she uses her words to put up some fertilizer around those things. Notice, notice, notice. Praise, praise, praise. And what you're gonna notice is whatever you focus on with your words grows. The book of Proverbs says the power of life and death is in the tongue.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, that's what. That's what I was gonna say. So. It's just. There's so much power in your words, and so use it them. Use the power of your words to build up your husband.

[A]

Okay. Let's talk about demons.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Carlos, you want to come hang out? Come on, brother. He's got his Florida shirt on. I like it. Okay, so. Hey, man. Hey. Hey. How's it going, dude?

[B]

You want me to.

[C]

No, no, we're good.

[B]

Why don't you sit here?

[A]

We're good, Trinity. Because he's not hard. That. Can you do it?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Hey, man, I didn't even realize it was down.

[A]

You can help him trendy.

[B]

Can you?

[A]

You got it. That's awesome. Hey, Mike, the mic works.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

It's good to see you.

[B]

Hey, how's it going?

[A]

I'm curious. What is it from. The first part of the podcast is like, that. That's the most. That's the most important, bro.

[C]

I was going to tell you that. Not the last question, but the one before really blessed me.

[A]

Which one was it?

[C]

For a reason that I can't necessarily fully explain, but the one on the government.

[A]

Oh, the courthouse.

[C]

Yeah, it was. You know, it's funny. It just makes a lot of sense. I never really processed it like that, but that was so good. Thank you so much.

[A]

Well, we almost. It was like two. Like, I'll just be really vulnerable. There was like, two times when we were engaged. Engaged. And we were like, we really want to do married people stuff. We almost eloped. It was like.

[B]

Right, yeah, we. We talked about it. Yeah. And then we were like, oh, our parents will be.

[A]

Our parents will kill us. We exercise self control.

[C]

After this podcast, I'm gonna shoot you a text and I'm explaining why.

[A]

That's great. That's great.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

But we did. We almost. It was like, twice. We were like, what if we. What if we just. We could just drive down to the courthouse. That's great.

[C]

That's good theology, man.

[A]

Hey, man, theology matters.

[C]

Theology does matter.

[A]

Theology really matters.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. Hard, emotional spirit theology. Speak of theology. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to give the quick synopsis of the thing that we're talking about? We don't have any, like, screenshot about this. Actually, I don't even know if I want this screenshot.

[B]

It's pretty dark.

[A]

I've got some stuff I'm going to show in a second.

[C]

We'll be selective with what we show.

[A]

Oh, let me just give a quick heads up. So content warrants warning. Up until this point it was PG13 because we were talking about marital intimacy and sex. A little bit different content warning. There's a couple things that we're going to talk about in the next couple seconds that are just dark. So if that's not your thing, you can turn up pod. That's right, they're just dark. You can talk about the demonic.

[C]

So as of the recording of this podcast, this is what everybody's talking about right now online. On the morning of August 27th, 7th of this year, during a back to school mass at Annunciation Catholic School, there was a mass in South Minneapolis. There is a shooter who opened fire from outside the church through the windows and took the life of two children ages 8 and 10. This is like back to school, they just started. And injuring 17 others, including 14 children and three elderly parishioners. So this is a 23 year old shooter who before the shooting went on YouTube and posted a, a couple videos showing his guns in magazines with multiple messages including and I'm going to use this term because this is like the social media term used on the live Donald Trump. Six million was not enough referring to the Holocaust, where is your God? Amongst other things. He also had a, a video of his journal with the photo of the church pews. And you can watch the. You should not watch this video.

[A]

I'm not going to show the video.

[C]

Okay? Yeah, but he basically is just like he's stabbing the journal, saying that he's gonna un alive himself. And, and again there's just a lot going on here. Obviously lots of investigation, lots of information still coming up. He one thing that also came up is that this is a person who identified themselves as a transgender woman.

[A]

So it's a dude that I quote unquote identified as a, as a girl.

[C]

Biological male who identified as a, as a woman. That's right. And so, so let's talk about it.

[A]

Yes. Let me just say a few things. This is the most overt, this is the most overt demonic activity I've ever seen chronicled in the national news. I've never seen anything like it. So let me point out a few things about what the Bible says that demons do. Okay? So John 10 says that what Satan and demons do is they come to steal, kill and destroy. So what they want to do is things like depression, suicide, murder, steal, kill, destroy. Number two, Revelation 12:17 says this about Satan and demons. In the Book of Revelation, it says, then the dragon representing Satan and demons was enraged at the woman and went off to. It's talking about either the church or Mary, depending on the theologian, but it doesn't matter. Went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring. So notice this. What Satan's doing is he's going, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to attack and kill children. And specifically, I'm going to target Christians and their kids, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Jesus. You're also going to notice in the Old Testament that whenever there is an action of the Holy Spirit, there's an opposite reaction of unholy spirits. The Bible calls demons. So we talked about the Abrahamic covenant earlier. In Genesis 15, there were three things that Abrahamic covenant promised. It promised to the descendants of Abraham, the Jewish people, land lineage, and Lord, land, lineage, and a coming Lord. So what Satan and demons do is wage war against that specific covenant. Okay, we're gonna. We're gonna try to take the land. We're gonna try to eradicate the lineage of Abraham, the Jewish people, and we're gonna do everything. We hate. We hate the Lord. That's what we're gonna do. Then I'm gonna notice, I'm gonna point this out. And this is a little, little bit weird and controversial in the Bible. In the Bible, humans are created with biologically binary genders, male and female. Interestingly, in the Bible, guess who is not gendered in the Bible? Angels and demons. They are not given genders in the Bible. They are non binary. They are gender fluid. They can appear as men or women throughout the Bible. I'll even point this out. This is a little creepy and you may disagree with this, but very frankly, in, you know, what people do in LGBTQ movement, especially the T is, hey, man, I'm a they them. Anytime somebody says they them, my mind immediately goes to Mark, chapter five. Jesus walks up to a demon possessed man and he goes, hey, what's your name? And the guy says, my name is Legion. We are many. He literally says to Jesus, I'm a they. I'm a theme. So here's what's really interesting, man. You start looking at this thing, and I'm going to show some disturbing images. Okay? This. This transgender dude, he wrote some things. Now remember, he's targeting Christian children. Go grok. Today how many shootings there have been in America in the last five years. On Buddhist temples or mosques, the answer is zero. Vingo Grok, how many shootings have there been against Christian churches and synagogues? The answer is a lot. It's almost as if mosques and Buddhist temples are something that Satan likes or is okay with, but Christians are something that he wants to steal, kill, and destroy. It's almost as if that's the case now. Now this dude, all this stuff is coming out. Look at the things that are written on the gun clips that he used to kill Christian children. So you got here for the children. Okay, go to the next one. Next one he wrote on it. Where is your God? Okay, go to the next one. Israel must fall. So we're noticing a pattern here. We're targeting children. Children, specifically Christian children. And we're specifically targeting the lineage from which the Lord came. God's chosen people. Do we have another one of those clips or is that it? Yeah, 6 million wasn't enough. So this transgender person, non binary, whatever you want to say is saying the Holocaust. I wanted. I want more than the Holocaust. So let's. We're starting to stack some things. Okay. This is a person who is feeling not gendered, non binary, whatever you want to say. They're targeting children, they're targeting Christians, they're targeting the land. They're targeting the land and the lineage of the Lord. Well, this is starting to sound a little creepy. I wonder what's going on here. Now we've already seen him targeting land and lineage. Go to the next one. And look at what this dude was using for target practice. So literally on the right, this dude posted. Posted very disturbing image of what he was using to. For his. At the gun range, for his practices is literally a picture of the crucified Lord. So what did demons and Satan target? Land lineage. Lord. You got it right there. Now let's go a layer deeper because it gets a little creepier. This is the next one is this drawing that he had in his notebook. And what you're going to notice here, there's some writing that you probably cannot. Like, you can't inter. You can't interpret the writing, but it's a picture that he drew in his journal of him looking in a mirror with a demon looking back in the mirror. And then there's all this writing that you can't read. Okay, now go to the next picture. And this is a translation of the writing that this. So this dude's looking in a mirror and he. He's kind of demonstrating something speaking back to him. That's like a demon and the translation is, who? When will this end? So you have a tortured person, an oppressed person. Help me. I don't want to help. And then what's the demon say back? Kill yourself, kill. That's what this dude is saying is chronicling he's experiencing. Now let's go even a layer deeper. This is literally the most overt example, example of documented demon oppression I've ever seen in my lifetime play itself out in the national news. Here's a page from this dude's journal. I'm going to read it at length. I feel like there's some kind of God or higher force controlling me. I sometimes notice how I suddenly start writing things that I don't even think of myself. It's as if someone is putting these thoughts in my head. I used to think that all of this was nonsense, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe this is really some kind of higher mind that communicates with me this way. I often notice how my body does things automatically, as if by itself. I can just walk down the street and suddenly realize that I don't even remember how I got there. It scares me, but at the same time it makes me curious. Maybe people are all controlled like this, but they don't even notice it. Or maybe I'm the only one who's noticed it and that's why I feel special. But I don't know if this is good or bad. Listen, bro, I'm just telling you, like, sometimes the greatest argument for the existence of God and the truth of Christianity is the very obvious existence of demons. That's that right there. So what I would say is, dude, if you're looking at that, it's literally like somebody opened a Bible and went, what do demons do? And then they did that thing. So what I would say theologically for us is throughout the Bible, whatever God creates, Satan copies and demonic oppression and possession are the satanic counterfeits, the satanic copies of being filled with the spirit and led by the spirit. So every Christian should see this stuff and we should go, hey, man, I know exactly what that is. The book of Ephesians says, our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm realms. And then it says, but greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world, bro. That's.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That's for real.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

When you guys see that stuff, what do you. What do you think or see?

[C]

Yeah, I got some thoughts. Trina, can you put the photo of the, of the mirror. Once again, it's interesting cuz when you see this one man, that's a, that right there, that's a Bible verse. And I'll have to show you what it is. That's actually two Bible verses.

[A]

It is right there.

[C]

Well, I'm going to, actually, I'm going to. No, like you see that in the Bible. And I'm about to explain, explain what I mean by that. So it's interesting because Genesis chapter one says we were made in the image of God, which means we were literally means, it just means we were made to be a reflection of who God is. God is loving, joyful, peaceful, sacrificial for the good of others. But what God designs, he distorts. And so when you're spiritually. And by the way, some people have depression, this person doesn't have depression, they have oppression. That's right. And so when, when, when you're spiritually oppressed, Satan's goal is to distort the image of God in you so that when you see yourself in the mirror, you don't see a reflection of God, but you see a reflection of Satan, which is what the shooter is literally drawing here and just basically telling us, this is what I'm seeing. I'm not seeing the image of God. That's Satan's oppression over his life. That's. So that's Genesis 1. It says, hey, we bear the image of God. But Revelation 13 says that the devil has deceived some so much that they don't even bear the image of God anymore. They bear the image of Satan. And so it talks about the mark of the beast or some people. And so this is, this is what this person is wrestling with. Obviously, he's clearly not just depressed, he's oppressed. There's demon possession there. And it's interesting too, because when you look at Genesis 1 on the topic of transgenderism, this shooter obviously identified, identified himself as a transgender woman. The transgender movement today, it's all about the identity of the self. And so obviously today we hear this, people know this. I choose to identify as a man, or people would say I choose to identify as non binary, regardless of biology, culture. What people say in Genesis 3 and the fall is not just a random disobedience that we see in the scriptures. It was actually a rebellion of identity. And so when God makes Adam and.

[A]

Eve, that's very wise.

[C]

When God makes Adam and eve. In Genesis 1, God says, you were made in my image. Image. And literally right after that Right after God says, you were made in my image, he says, male and female. And so in other words, God says, hey, your identity is who I say you are. And literally right after male and female. So the result of this, when Adam and Eve, they walk in their identity given by God, they were. The Bible says they were naked and unashamed. And so they walked with God and it was good. But then Satan comes to Adam and Eve and he attacks their sense of identity. And he says, hey, don't listen to God. Eat the fruit. And then he says, for God knows that when you eat of it, you will be like God. So Satan is saying, you can either let God choose your identity because he's God and he gets to define who you are, or you can listen to me and quote, be like God. And now you can now define your own identity. And so the transgender movement today, that's basically what it says. Hey, you don't have to, to trust God for him to give you your identity. You can be like God. You can define your own identity. And if you do, then you'll finally be happy. Obviously, that's not true. And so again, Adam and Eve, they believe this satanic lie. This is literally all in Genesis, chapter three. And the Bible says after that, they realized they were naked, they were ashamed, they were afraid, they hid from God. And so this is what you see today, statistically speaking. You know, you can look this up. Honestly, this is heartbreaking because these are people who God loves. That's exactly Christians should do too. Today, people that self identify as transgender are significantly more likely to have a mental health disorder, significantly higher rates of suicide, more likely to have long term poor mental health. And so I think that the, the point from, from all this is, hey, receiving your identity from God results in life and healing. Rejecting it results in shame and self destruction. Be careful what voice you're listening to, bro.

[A]

That is. Yes. That was a master class right there. First of all, all that's amazing, dude. Let me, let me dovetail a couple things you just said, Carlos, because you triggered some other thoughts here. One, a, a question that I hear a bunch of people ask is like, they'll read their Bible and they'll go, man, there's a lot of demon possession in the Bible and there's not a lot in our culture, like, how come I've never seen it? This actually touches on the answer to that question for me. There's two reasons for that. One, they live. Remember Satan? Satan's only goal is to keep you from faith in Jesus. That's his goal. He's coming after your faith. That's what he wants. In their culture, they lived in a very spiritist and spiritual culture. And so it was like, hey, the strategy to deceive you was lots of overt evil spirits giving people power. Okay, well, in our culture, until, honestly, like the last 18 months, I'd say, say has been under the spell of secularism. So it's like the belief that there is no God, let's function that way. Now I will say, I. I honestly think our entire nation right now is having this moment where not everybody's going, okay, I believe in Jesus. But I think. I think by and large, people are like, all right, man. I kind of think the atheism thing is kind of dumb. Like, dude, when I was in college in the late or in the early 2000s, like, the new atheism was like the big thing. Like, literally nobody. It's like, honestly, it's cringe now. Like, Gen Z is kind of like, ah, it's kind of cringe. It's like, not. So I think Satan's strategy changed. Like, in secularism, Satan's strategy was, I'll just get you to believe there is no God, so you're not going to see overt demonic activity. Do the other one. I want to know what you think about this. I want to know what you guys think about this. The other one, honestly. So the Bible says that when Satan rebelled, a third of heaven went with him. So here's the deal. Like this. Some is just math. There's a fixed number of demons. There is a rapidly growing number of humans. So it's. Honestly, man, I think that's why you don't see it as much. It's like, honestly, man, there might have been. There was less than 1 billion people in the world back then and the same number of demons. Well, now there's 9 billion people and the same number of demons. I do think there's a little bit of that. Let me just say a couple other things on this.

[C]

And you say that, Josh, to say that that's why you don't see so much overt.

[A]

Yeah, honestly, it's just there's like this may. This is conjecture. There's fewer demons per person. It's like the whole world still lies under the power of the evil one. That's New Testament. But like, literal math is fixed number of demons, growing number of people, there's fewer demons per capita. You know, whatever you want to say. I actually think that's a thing. If you treat the Bible as real, real. I am seeing stuff, Stuff like this that actually really bothers me. Like, as a Christian, toss up that social media post. It's the policy and change. Okay, like this. Somebody posted this, and everybody's like, making fun of Christians saying thoughts and prayers, and they crossed out thoughts and prayers and said policy and change. Let me say two things. Number one, like, literally no Christian I've ever been met thinks that thoughts and prayers are in place of policy and change. In fact, like, basically every Christian in America is like, absolutely, I want to see some policy and change. In fact, how about we change the policy of affirming mental illness and demonic activity? Yep, I would love to do that. Oh, and let's also keep praying because we believe that our Father hears our prayers. So, yep, policy and change. I'm all in. Let's change the policy of affirming mental illness and demonic activity. So I just. I want to take this moment to continue to put courage in the hearts of Christians, clarity and wisdom in the hearts of Christians. Hey, man, you are not mean for refusing to affirm ideologies like this. Actually, what's really, really mean is affirming somebody in something that actually might be demonic activity and is definitely mental illness that will result in depression, sometimes suicide, and apparently murder. That's really mean. So let's remember that.

[C]

That's good, man.

[A]

You got anything else or. I got a couple things for Christians. Jana, you want? Jana's like, leave me out of this.

[C]

I got one more thing, but keep.

[A]

Going because I think I got last thing. Like, I just. So if I'm giving some wisdom to Christians, because I think Christians read this stuff and, like, what am I supposed to do about it? You know, A couple things I say is one, Romans, chapter eight says, we have not been given a spirit of fear, but we have been given a spirit of sonship by which we cry. Abba, Father. So no Christian anywhere should see something like that and then walk around afraid. No, no, man. Like, we have been given authority in the name of Christ over all demonic activity. He is the name that is above every name. And I love. So one of my favorite things in the whole New Testament is the Pharisees don't recognize Jesus, his entire ministry, but every demon possessed person that ever comes in contact with Jesus immediately recognizes them. Like, oh, please don't cast us into the abyss, Lord. Like, they literally call him Lord. So what's really interesting is the people who had thousands of Bible verses don't recognize him, but the people who were possessed by thousands of Demons did. So it's like, hey, man. And they're terrified of him. So we don't have any fear. We're people who are full of the spirit of God, and the spirit of God has power over the unholy spirits who are not of God. Number two is, I just want to really encourage Christians that when Jesus came in contact with demon oppressed people, he hated the demon, but he loved the demoniac. That's really, really important. He hated the demon, but he loved the demoniac. And I do think sometimes when Christians will come in contact with people who identify as transgender, a little bit of idea conflation will happen where they're like, man, I hate the argument that this person embodies. I hate the ideology this person embodies. And they'll actually end up treating the person with hate. Now, let me just say what will also happen is, is they'll get accused of, if you don't agree with me, you're practicing hate. Wrong. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. To differ is not to hate. The Bible says that love rejoices with the truth. So actually, it's very loving to not affirm an ideology that is imprisoning a person.

[C]

Can I say something about that, please? I think the accusation is, obviously, when somebody's listening to you, be like, oh, man, my pastor Josh, I thought Christians are supposed to be empathetic. Like, if you think about this person who experiencing gender dysphoria, aren't you supposed to just. And honestly, most of the times, it's more than just an argument. It's more like, you know, somebody that's going through it and you're like, well, I don't want to be the mean Christian that says, actually, I disagree with you that what you are saying is not true. And I think it's easy that we miss this. Empathy and love are not synonymous. So empathy and love, they're not the same thing. So empathy comes from the word empathos, which literally just means they're in the feelings of somebody else. Pathos is feelings, empathy. And so it's basically somebody that's empathetic is basically just saying, hey, I feel what you feel. And so it's not wrong for Christians to be empathetic. It's actually like, you know, Romans, chapter 12 says, we rejoice with those who rejoice, we mourn with those who mourn born. But the Christian is a commonly weaponized.

[A]

Verse, by the way.

[C]

That's right. People use it to manipulate. But when that happens, you need to Consider this, that the Christian is not ultimately led by empathos or empathy or being in the feelings of somebody else. We're ultimately led by love and we're ultimately led by the Spirit. A Christian is called not to just feel and be led by those feelings of whatever the other person, person is experiencing, but to love like Christ did. And like you said, Pastor Josh, the way Christ loved is full of grace and also full of truth. And so this means that in our culture you can be very empathetic and at the same time not very loving. Because like you said, 1 Corinthians 13:6, love always rejoices with what is true. And so I think the danger is, Mandon, do not be careful not to let empathy, empathy blind you from being loving to other people.

[A]

Dude. Last thing I would say on this, we modern Christians, steeped in secularism, do not teach on the realities of spiritual realities of Satan and demons. Enough. We do not. Let me, I'll just point this out. We don't in general talk about it anywhere near to the degree that you read about in the Gospels. Now, some people get creepy and literally everything's a demon. And it's, yes, illogical and stupid. But I will just say this for somebody that's listening and they're like, oh, man, there's. I'm not sure if I'm all in on the Jesus stuff, but there's probably, there's definitely something spiritual going on with that guy. So here's what I would say, man, is like, some people like, well, dude, okay, I'm just going to try to get rid of like this dark, whatever the dark spirit thing is, I'm just going to get rid of that. And then they, like, don't come to Jesus all the way in repentance of faith. Let me read what Jesus said about what is going to happen to that person. This is Matthew, chapter 12. Jesus says, when an unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but it finds none. Then it says, I will return to my house from which I came. And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits, more evil, evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first. So it will be with this evil generation. So I would just say it's not enough to subtract the evil spirit from your life. You need to be filled with the Holy Spirit or else nature hates evacuating vacuum. And seven Other spirits more evil than the first will backfill. We are people who are filled with and led by the spirit of the living God.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

That's good, man.

[A]

We got anything else? Jana had nothing, man. She like y' all talk. I don't want to talk about this. Ms. Jana, will you pray for our people?

[B]

I would love to, Father. Thank you for who you are. Thank you for you're just loving us, your kindness towards us. Thank you for Jesus. And I just pray, Father, that you will just continue to start our affections for you. Help us to grow in our walk with you. Help us to be discerning of all of the the lies that the world feed us. Help us to align everything with the word of God, Father. Help us just to want to be sanctified and washed with the water of your word, Father. I pray for marriages to be restored, renewed. I pray for others to find a godly spouse, Father. And I just pray that we'll just our marriages will continue just to reflect Christ and his love for his bride, Father. So I just pray that you will just impress that upon our church body. I pray that you will put a hedge of protection around your people and just keep us safe in you and hid in Christ, Father. And I just pray that you'll just continue to grow our faith daily. We love you, Jesus, and it's in your name we pray. Amen. Amen.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church Church. Live free. We'll see you next time.