You've Been LIED TO About America's History With Christianity (ft. Tim Barton) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You've Been LIED TO About America's History With Christianity"

Live Free with Josh Howerton | Lakepointe Church ft. Tim Barton
April 29, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode tackles the widespread belief that America was not founded on Christian principles and explores how revisionist history, secularism, and Marxist ideology have obscured the true, faith-filled roots of the nation. Host Pastor Josh Howerton and guest Tim Barton (president of WallBuilders, author, and historian) dig deep into original sources, historic artifacts, and the motivations behind historical narratives—aiming to “deprogram” listeners from the myths presented in modern education, media, and university textbooks.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Spiritual Roots of America’s Culture War

• Barton and Howerton open by lamenting the current culture war and its roots in a “spiritual war” and a loss of biblical perspective.
• Tim Barton remarks:

  "We've forgotten our starting place, which is what Paul says in Romans—hey, we are all sinners in need of a savior. There's none righteous. No, not one. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God...It's a lack of biblical perspective, but also it's because we've embraced a lot of Marxist ideology not based on truth." (00:03)

2. Political Leaders and Public Bible Reading—Is It Unprecedented?

• The episode is inspired by controversy over U.S. political leaders reading the Bible publicly (recent “America Reads the Bible” event in D.C.).
• Josh references media freakouts (CNN) and asks: Is this out-of-bounds?
• Tim responds emphatically:

  "No, it's a return to where we were not very many decades ago...Every single president in American history said, 'America is a Christian nation.' Until President Barack Obama." (06:52) "George Washington, after being sworn in, the first action they took—went to a church service." (08:53)

3. America’s Biblical Foundation: Original Source Artifacts

• Tim brings rare historical Bibles: 1612 King James, the Geneva Bible, and the 1781 Aitken Bible—displaying undeniable links between Scripture and the founding.

  "This is the actual Bible...The front of the Bible has the report of the committee. Congress chose two pastors to review it...Congress assembled, highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking...and recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States." (13:36)

• Education and the Bible:

  • Congress’s motivation was also practical, due to a "Bible shortage...kids don't have enough Bibles for their schools, for education. The Bible was the number one textbook students used in school." (15:30)
  • Explicit recommendation and use of the Bible in American public education through the late 1800s, evidenced by primers and catechisms.

4. Deprogramming Modern Myths: Where Did “Godless America” Come From?

• The persistent myth that the Founders were all deists/atheists, not Christians, is challenged.
• Barton demonstrates the academic conspiracy via the book The Godless Constitution:

  "Two professors at Cornell write an entire book with no historical footnotes prior to 1950 and footnote nothing...It is still taught in Ivy League universities. It's used in law schools." (31:32)

• In contrast, scholars who studied the Founders’ actual writings found:

  "The most quoted source in the Founders’ writings was...the Bible. 34%. The entire Enlightenment comes in second at 19%." (33:02)

5. Pastors, Original Influencers of Liberty

• Tim cites Alice Baldwin’s research on the "New England Clergy and the American Revolution":

  "There is not a right asserted in the Declaration of Independence which had not been discussed by the New England clergy before 1763." (35:48)

• "The most influential voice in their life was their pastors." (36:28)

6. How Did Revisionism Take Hold? (Marxist/Progressive Influence)

• Barton traces the deliberate revision of history to Marxist infiltration (Frankfurt School, Columbia University) starting in the 1940s, and explains how the Founders’ reputations were attacked by progressives to delegitimize the Constitution and American ideals. (21:36–23:49)

7. Church, State, and the Founders’ Intent (Separation & Establishment)

• Explaining the First Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."), Barton clarifies the historical problem being solved:

  "What problem were they trying to solve? When America is being formed, it’s immigrants escaping religious persecution...In England, you couldn’t have a Bible study not led by an Anglican priest...The Founders wanted no state-imposed denomination." (41:37–43:01)

• Emphasizes separation of institutions (not secularization):

  "We support a separation of institutions, not a secularization of institutions." (44:29)

• The phrase “wall of separation of church and state” (from Jefferson’s 1802 letter) is explained—Jefferson personally attended church services in the Capitol building two days after penning the letter. (64:29–67:21)

8. Slavery: Repudiating the 1619 Narrative

• Barton attacks the myth that the Founders were uniquely pro-slavery or that the U.S. invented racialized slavery:

  "If you go to the 1700s, can you name any people with money and power who didn’t have slaves? The first political movement organized to end this evil—America, before England." (82:05) "The original draft of the Declaration—the longest grievance was an attack on the slave trade, calling for its end, naming the King as complicit, and demanding equality." (84:44)

• 11 of 13 colonies (all but SC and GA) wanted slavery abolished at the Founding; after independence, all Northern colonies began abolition. (89:09)

9. Are the 'Deist' Accusations Accurate?

• Founders like Franklin and Jefferson were more complex than "deists":
  • Franklin, after being influenced by George Whitefield, became president of the Pennsylvania Abolition Society, advocated prayer at the Constitutional Convention, and left deism behind after adolescence. (78:25)
  • Jefferson authored Congressional plans supporting Bible use in D.C. schools and signed acts funding Christian missions to Native Americans. (68:53–70:54)
• The majority of signers were orthodox Christians (examples: John Witherspoon, John and Sam Adams, Roger Sherman).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Revisionist History:

"If you don’t know you’re in a propaganda war, you get susceptible to it. Most Americans have not realized we've been in a propaganda war for the birth and the soul of our nation." — Tim Barton (23:49)

On Footnote-Free Historical Scholarship:

"These are two college professors who wrote a history book and did not include a footnote in it...This is an academic way of saying, 'sources: Trust me, bro.'" — Tim Barton & Josh Howerton (29:56–30:15)

On the Use of the Bible in Founding Writings:

"34 percent of all of the quotes he found in their writings came from the Bible…had we included all the obvious references, the number would have been far higher..." — Tim Barton (33:02–33:17)

On Church & State:

"We support a separation of institutions, not a secularization of institutions." — Tim Barton (44:29)

Jefferson and Church Attendance:

"Jefferson wrote his famous Wall of Separation letter on Friday, January 1. Two days later, he attended church at the Capitol Building, listening to his friend, Reverend John Leland, preach the sermon. Each Sunday, Jefferson rode his horse 1.6 miles from the White House to the church at the Capitol." — (68:53)

On Original Sin and American Slavery:

"Literally, the largest grievance in the Declaration is arguing for the equality of all that were enslaved." — Tim Barton (87:21)

On Christians & Imperfect Statesmen:

"We are not disqualified because of our sin, but because of the blood of Christ we are uniquely called to do something great and significant in your hands for your kingdom. God, use us to make a difference in the culture and world around us." — Tim Barton, prayer (97:00)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:00–03:28 | Intro: Culture wars, spiritual battles, welcoming Tim Barton | | 06:52–08:53 | Presidents’ historic faith—examples from FDR through present | | 09:02–15:30 | Bibles & Bible printing in America (Aitken Bible, congressional endorsement) | | 16:06–19:24 | Deprogramming myths: How education changed, propaganda origins | | 31:32–33:31 | Ivy League history books with no footnotes; Lutz’s study on founders’ biblical citations | | 35:41–36:31 | Pastors as the real original American influencers | | 41:12–47:12 | Establishment Clause, historical meaning, U.S. v. Church of the Holy Trinity | | 63:20–68:53 | Jefferson, the Danbury Baptists, and "separation of church and state" | | 82:05–89:09 | Slavery, debunking the 1619 Project narrative, Founders’ abolitionism | | 92:35–94:25 | The Jefferson–Hemings controversy, how the story spread | | 96:41–98:16 | Closing reflections and prayer for America’s future |

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Conclusion

Original Language & Tone:
Dynamic, passionate, and scholarly—peppered with astonishment at historical realities, a good dose of humor, and a call to discipleship and critical engagement with America’s past.

Value:
For anyone raised on American exceptionalism as myth or secularism as the Founders’ intent, this episode is a packed master class in Christian influence on the American Founding, the importance of original sources, and the consequences of forgetting or rewriting history.

Takeaway:
America’s spiritual roots run deeper than modern education concedes. The Founders’ words, actions, and policies were steeped in Christian values, and to forget that is not simply "to forget history"—it is to lose the core of what made the American experiment possible.

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Transcript

[Josh]

What you're seeing right now is the culture war is downstream of a spiritual war.

[Tim Barton]

I feel like having a culture that has become more secular and even a church that is less biblical. We have forgotten our starting place, which is what Paul says in Romans is, hey, we are all sinners in need of a savior. There's none righteous. No, not one. All have sinned and comes toward the glory of God. And it's really lack of biblical perspective, but also it's because we've embraced a lot of Marxist ideology, not based on truth.

[Lake Pointe Church Announcer]

Well, hey, Lit Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas.

[Josh]

Texas.

[Lake Pointe Church Announcer]

But the live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for Church Online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast.

[Josh]

Tim Barton, welcome to Live Free.

[Tim Barton]

Thank you.

[Josh]

Dude. We may top our previous one. This may be the most interesting episode we've ever done. We were talking before this. I don't know how we're about to cover all of the things that I want to cover that are gonna absolutely blow your mind. But we're really honored to be here, man.

[Tim Barton]

I am so honored to be here. And yes, I've already pulled stuff off the table knowing we don't have enough time for it. There's so much to get into.

[Josh]

This is gonna be nice. I've been wanting to do this, so I'm gonna give you a heads up. This is, here's what we're getting ready to talk about for listeners. I'm gonna lead into it and show you something from CNN in a second. Obviously, we're doing this thing right now that was going on this last week called America Reads the Bible. Political leaders in D.C. reading passages of the Bible.

[Tim Barton]

I, I, I read Nehemiah 7 and 8. I was there.

[Josh]

Really? You got to do it. Dang it, dude. I Mentioned this beforehand. They asked me to fly over there and be a part of it, and I couldn't. I was in Greece this week leading a journey of Paul discipleship trip. But it was. It was stunning. I didn't know you were a part of it. So anyway, that has led to a freakout by a lot of man. I'm out of breath. I just did push ups. That's my little thing.

[Tim Barton]

That's why your arms look big when you come in here.

[Josh]

Okay, stop, dude, stop it. This. It gets my heart rate going. It's helpful. It led to a freakout in the media about man, no politician should ever be reading the book. And you wrote which. This is what this episode is going to be about. The best book. I say this to buddies all the time. I think it was the best book I've read in the last five years. I read it on vacation two and a half years ago in Gulf Shores. It's called. Can you bring it up? Trinity. I want everybody to see this, like, legitimately. How many pages that book? Ish.

[Tim Barton]

250, maybe 280. I don't know.

[Josh]

And I'm not a crazy fast reader. I'm in Gulf Shores anytime my kids are hanging out with Pop Pop or they're sleeping. I couldn't put that thing down. I read that thing in three days and I think I highlighted half the book. It's one of the best books I've read in five years. I tell everybody about it now. That's what we're going to talk about. Because essentially what I learned is virtually everything I had been told about the relationship of the founding of our nation to the Christian faith was a lie.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And that book using, like, original source quotes. We got the daggum stuff sitting on the dang table right now. We're going to do a little show and tell. Like it deprogrammed all that stuff. So thank you for writing it.

[Tim Barton]

Yes, my pleasure.

[Josh]

It was nuts. It was nuts. So that's the lead in. I also want to brag on one of your staffers real quick. Show that picture of that kid that I met in. So I'm in dfw, flying somewhere. Do you know that guy's name?

[Tim Barton]

Eric Hansen.

[Josh]

Eric. Okay.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And I hear some guy go from down the hall. They're like, josh. And then I thought they were talking to somebody else. He goes, live free. I turn around and it's one of your staffers.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And he walks up and he explains to me what he's got in his hand right there. Is a 1612 second printing of the King James Bible that you're holding right there.

[Tim Barton]

This one.

[Josh]

That's. How much is that worth?

[Tim Barton]

Do you have any idea? I mean, so it's always based on what somebody's going to pay, but it's. I mean, it's over $10,000. It's probably below $50,000. So depending on the auction. It's not cheap.

[Josh]

No, of course. So he's 1612 King James Bible, and, you know, he starts talking about Live Free, and then he shows this to me. And then I was a little audacious and I was like, can I hold it? So then, you know, he lets me. He's like, if you're real careful.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And so, you know, I'm there. It blew my mind. But he was bragging on you.

[Tim Barton]

Well, so I want to say, so he's been saved for like five years. God sent something radical in his life. And as we have had a lot of Bible conversation. Discussions. So he went to college, studied classics, which is helpful for studying American history when you know you're Latin and you're Greek and you're read lots of old literature. But as we have a lot of faith conversations, I said, bro, you need to start listening to Live Free.

[Josh]

He told me. He said that. Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

So he, he was so excited. He texted me right after. He's like, you're never going to believe who I just met in the airport. So, bro, so grateful for what you are doing, obviously on lots of levels, but even to help my staff, so grateful.

[Josh]

It's awesome, man. Well, dude, I'm really, really humbled. And this is going to be amazing. We got a couple hundred thousand dollars of, you know, stuff up here. And listen, man, I'm just telling you, this is going to blow your mind, like, so let me just lead into it. Trinity. Don't. Don't pull up the Hillary Clinton thing yet. Pull up the. Can you pull up that CNN screenshot? So let me just. Let's get right at it, man. So this is what made me reach out to you. So this last week, this picture of, I think Trump read from was the second Chronicles, correct?

[Tim Barton]

7:14.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

If my people were called by my name. So, you know, you got a sitting president and then a bunch of other leaders, too. Did Rubio do it?

[Tim Barton]

I don't recall him doing it, but Pete Hegseth came and spoke, and so there were other people involved.

[Josh]

So you got sitting presidents, political leaders of our nation. They're opening up a Bible, reading it publicly. And you had A very expected freak out from the media. So what you got right here is CNN posts this. It's like a scare quote thing. And like, hey, President Trump will participate in a public Bible reading this week as the administration continues to integrate religion, particularly Christianity, into official business. And then if you click on the article, I mean, it was like what you would have thought that, you know, I don't know, World War 3 was happening, the sky was falling, and the worst imaginable. So let's lead right into it. The implication of that article, and this is why I reached out to you, the implication of this article was, hey, presidents and political leaders reading the Bible in their official governing office is obviously out of bounds and obviously out of step with the historic norms of our nation. So let me just start right here. Tim Barton. Yeah, let's start right here. Is that a deviation from how our nation was founded? Let's just go right out with you.

[Tim Barton]

No, it's a return to where we were not very many decades ago. Not to derail, because I really want to go back to a lot of historic documents. But it's worth pointing out, every single president in American history said, America is a Christian nation. Until President Barack Obama. What? He was the very first one that said America's not a Christian nation. He went on what was known as the apology tour and said, no, we're not a Christian nation. But the reason it matters is because every president up until him not only said it out loud, they would do very pro faith things from their office. So you can go back historically and I'll go back to the founding in just a second. But when we're in the middle of World War II and our boys are going in on D Day, the Americans don't know what's happening yet. And so FDR gets on the radio, he's gonna do a fireside chat where he's telling them what's happening. He introduced America to the invasion by saying, there's an operation happening right now and I'm gonna ask you to join me in prayer. And he leads a six and a half minute prayer. And his prayer is an explanation. Lord, as our boys are right now landing in Normandy and as they're getting off their ships and they're going in, and he walks through the operation in prayer. And by the way, then, like Dwight Eisenhower, the commander of the Allied forces, when he becomes president, two presidents later, three presidents later, whatever it is, he actually led his own prayer at his own inauguration, which no president had ever done. And I'm saying this just as an example. So when people say presidents shouldn't be people of faith, every president had some. And by the way, fdr, Democrats, Dwight Eisenhower, Republican, that this wasn't a Republican, Democrat issue. That this was a, hey, this is who we are as Americans. We're people of faith. Like even Bill Clinton, with all of the issues and drama he had, he still was very outspoken promoting faith, which is now why it's a little ironic that Hillary is like, no, we can't do that kind of stuff. So even back to George Washington, when he was elected president, the first action they took after he was sworn in is they took all of the elected officials and they went to a church service. Wow. And that was the first action they did after he was inaugurated as president.

[Josh]

Wow. Wow. Okay, well, let's. I don't know, man. Where are you going to take this thing?

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, so let me go a little further because when we talk about, like,

[Josh]

let's do a little show and tell

[Tim Barton]

America, America with the Bible. And you know, President Trump shouldn't be reading this because that's inappropriate for the government. Oh, interesting. You think that this is the first Bible printed in English in America. It's known as the Akin Bible. Also is the Bible of the Revolution. It was printed toward the end of the American Revolution. Leading up to that point, we were not allowed to print Bibles in English in America. It actually goes back to the King James Bible. The King James Bible was. King James has thought of a resolution to a controversy. Now we mentioned this is the 1612 King James Bible.

[Josh]

It's a remarkable Bible. The reason that's a big deal is the original King James Bible was printed in 1611. So that Bible you're looking at right there was printed one year, second printing, one year after the original King James Bible, which is nuts.

[Tim Barton]

It's a second year printing of the King James Bible. The reason that Bible came into existence, King James was trying to resolve the conflict that had originated because of this Bible, the Geneva Bible. Now the Geneva Bible was the Bible that came out after the Reformation. It's the first Bible that was mass produced in English. And so it's Geneva, Switzerland. But Wycliffe laid the foundation for it. Tyndale built on that foundation, which. So this is based off of Tyndale's work. But what was unique is because it was the first Bible really available in English for people to have up to this point before the Protestant Reformation, there's only one church is the Catholic Church. So if you're a Christian, you're Catholic. That's just the way it was. The Protestants were worth noting. They were all Catholic monks and priests and they were just going, hey, that like what the King just said, what the Pope said, that's not what the Bible actually says. And so whether it's a Luther or Zwingli or Knox, Calvin, whoever, they were just pointing out what the Bible said. So in Geneva, Switzerland, when they, where they did these Bibles, they said, let's take some commentary from the Reformers and let's put it in the Bible. And so as you go through this Bible, for people that have been in Catholic Church, well, Catholic Church was done in Latin America. The Mass was Latin, the Bible was read in Latin. And most people didn't have any idea what Latin was pre Vatican ii. So they didn't have any idea what was actually being said. So when this Bible comes out, they're able to read, but they're like, I have no idea what Isaiah's talking about right here. And they're like, fortunately, we'll give you some commentary in the side margins. The commentary criticized a lot of the practices of the king, which led to King James going, this is too much controversy. So King James bans the printing of Bibles, which was the Geneva Bible, to stop the controversy that was happening.

[Josh]

I did not know.

[Tim Barton]

And it's what leads to the King James Bible coming out. So that Geneva Bible gets banned also, any religious commentary got banned in England. So when it came out, there's a big propaganda campaign like, hey guys, don't forget God loves kings. They're like his favorites. Support your local king, like wherever it is. Because the commentary in the Geneva, they go back to pointing out, like in Samuel, when Samuel comes before the people and he's like, guys, a king is the worst idea ever. You're lose your sons, your daughters, your property. It's a terrible idea. And so all that commentary is there criticizing some of these specific practices as well as even the idea of kings. So King James bans it, but he bans all printing of Bibles. So as British colonies are formed in the New World, we're importing all of our Bibles from England or Holland or some other friendly nation. When the American Revolution starts, we can't trade freely like we did. So now there's a question, how are we going to get our Bibles? And there was a Bible shortage. There was actually a request to Congress in 1777 to import 20,000 Bibles from Holland or some other friendly nation Congress approved. But because circumstances of the war, they didn't bring it in.

[Josh]

Let me just pause for readers because it's like you're going so fast. I want to verbally highlight some things. So you're saying Congress approved.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

The request to import 20,000 Christian Bibles. Congress approves it.

[Tim Barton]

Oh, correct.

[Josh]

Okay, let's keep going.

[Tim Barton]

So in 1781, the guy who does all of the printing for Congress. So when they would do proclamations, he's the guy printing. His name is Robert Akin. Robert Akin goes to him and he says, hey, we haven't been allowed to print Bibles under the King, but we've been at war with the King for a while and it looks like we might be doing our own thing. I've been working on a side project. Would it be okay if. If I printed a Bible and Congress being Congress, they said, well, let's assign that to a committee. Yeah, let's go. Let's have a committee oversee this.

[Josh]

Everything moves at the speed of government.

[Tim Barton]

But what's amazing. So. So this is the actual Bible. There were 10,000 originally printed. There's only a couple dozen left in known existence.

[Josh]

And that's one of them.

[Tim Barton]

This is one of them.

[Josh]

It's like an actual Aiken Bible.

[Tim Barton]

This is an original, actual Aiken Bible. So what's incredible is literally the front of the Bible, it has the report of the committee. Then the committee chose two pastors to review the Bible to make sure it was a good translation from the Greek, from the Latin, Vulgate, whatever else.

[Josh]

Wait, so United States Congress.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

Appoints Christian ministers to make sure that United States Congress signals. Is printing a biblically accurate text.

[Tim Barton]

So. Or at least approving it. Yes. They want to make sure we're not doing the wrong thing. So the two pastors come back and they go, it's a great translation. The committee comes back and reports to Congress that it's a good translation. The. The other side of that page, it actually has a congressional endorsement. Where. And I. I'm going to read it and then we can maybe get some B roll footage and blow it up so people can see it. But it says that the United States and Congress assembled, they highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking. Mr. Akin. On it goes, it concludes. And they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States.

[Josh]

So the United States Congress is saying, we recommend this Bible to the inhabitants of the United States. United States Congress says that in their official capacity.

[Tim Barton]

So, yes. And let me.

[Josh]

Okay, we're going to get to this in a second. I want you to keep going. When I first read this stuff, it blew my mind because, hey, public school kid in the 90s. Honestly, dude, kind of the vibe I got from education and then higher ed was like, hey, it's actually kind of a myth that our nation was founded on Christian principles and by a lot of Christians. That's really just sort of like, you know, it's something Christians like to.

[Tim Barton]

Totally.

[Josh]

But it's actually a myth. And then I read about, like, United States Congress, and they funded it. Didn't they. Didn't they fund it?

[Tim Barton]

So what they did is they not only approve it, they. They not only authorized him to print it, they put an endorsement, and then there was. There was a side mechanism funding. However, they did fund lots of other things, including missionaries to the natives, etc. But what's wrong?

[Josh]

Funded missionaries?

[Tim Barton]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh]

Okay. Again, I'm verbally highlighting things because I read all this in your book, and it like, I'm not. No joke, man. I'm, like, yelling in my condo and in Gulf Shores, Jenna, get in here. You got to read. Congress paid for Christian missionaries to reach the Indian. You know, so.

[Tim Barton]

So here's what's crazy about this one. In the actual records of Congress, when Robert Akin goes to make the appeal, part of what he says is we have such a Bible shortage that our kids don't have enough Bibles for their schools, for education. And the Bible was viewed as the number one textbook students used in school. And so his appeal, literally, when Congress approves, endorses, and authorizes him to do this, it's not just that we have Bibles in America, literally, it was to approve the request so we'd have more Bibles for kids in school to be able to read the Bible. Jeez.

[Josh]

Oh, my gosh, dude. It's like, okay. Nuts.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah.

[Josh]

Okay, Keep. Keep going.

[Tim Barton]

So the reason. And I. I want to do a deeper dive on some of this, but let me. Let me start with this, because what we are saying, I appreciate that most people are like, I. I'm not sure that's right. Like, that's not what I've heard. Oh, and I. I know it's not. So this is a. A book done by.

[Josh]

Before you go into this, I'm just going to agree with what you said. I'll obey you. The first time I ever heard about what you and your dad did, I for real had this, like, eye roll cringe moment where I was like, oh, they're one of those. They're one of those people who go with a little myth that, you know, the whole nation was founded By. And that was, like, for years. And then I read your book, and it's all original source quotes and actual things that took place. And it deprogrammed everything that I felt like I'd picked up in my education. So you keep going.

[Tim Barton]

So let me give a thought.

[Josh]

No, you keep going. What are you doing? We'll get there.

[Tim Barton]

So let me give a thought along those lines. Years ago, when my dad was starting some of writing, there was a attorney for the aclu, which basically is like the Anti Christian League.

[Josh]

That's how it functions, correct?

[Tim Barton]

Yes. Not to digress, but he saw some of my dad's writings and he said, hey, I just want you to know I'm gonna go through. And you saw from our book, we have more than a thousand footnotes in the back of the American story.

[Josh]

Oh, it's nuts, dude.

[Tim Barton]

So, like, so literally everything we're gonna say today, I would encourage everybody, like, please don't take my word for any of this. Be a berean, like to the Apostle Paul. Like, I'm not sure. Let's look this up and then recog. Oh, that's why I'm saying it. So this guy said, I just want you to know I'm an attorney. I think everything you do is reprehensible. I think it's awful. And I'm going to go through everything you've done and I'm going to show why you're wrong on all of them. And it was my dad's book, original intent. There's 1400 footnotes. It took us through like a year and a half, two years. And he reaches back out and he says, okay, I want you to know a couple things. First of all, that I only have one criticism, and that it's. You significantly understated your case. What he said when I went back,

[Josh]

this is the dude from the aclu, correct?

[Tim Barton]

Oh, it gets better. He said, when I went back and reviewed all of the original documents, he said, I realized there was even more in them than you said. And he says, second thing is, as I was studying this, I was so challenged, I actually became a Christian.

[Josh]

No way, dude.

[Tim Barton]

And he then left the aclu. He then started working for a religious liberty law firm. He now is a federal judge in Louisiana.

[Josh]

Are you kidding me?

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

Go Team Jesus. Go.

[Tim Barton]

So let's go like a layer deeper on this. So Charles Finney, the most famous evangelist in the second Great Awakening, Charles Finney was largely considered to be an atheist. He goes to law school.

[Josh]

Yeah, I never heard that before.

[Tim Barton]

He goes to Law school. While he's in law school, he's reading all of the law books, learning American law, and every single law he's finding goes back and cites something from Exodus or Deuteronomy. He says, I had to read so much of the Bible and studying American law, that's what actually led him to convert to Christianity.

[Josh]

Are you kidding? I've never heard that in my whole life.

[Tim Barton]

Because of how much Bible there was in the foundation of even law in America. Okay, now, so all of this is, like, basic foundation. So the modern narrative is like. No, like, Josh, the Founding Fathers, we know they weren't Christians. They were atheists or agnostics or deists. And so this book is done by two professors at Cornell University. It's called the Godless Constitution.

[Josh]

Okay, real quick. So I'm gonna. I apologize for interrupting. You're like a dang computer, and so, you know you're smarter than me. So I have to bite size this. So here's what I'm gonna do for listeners in the next few minutes. Basically, what I'm asking Guy to do is deprogram everything that I learned in high school. Okay? So I'm gonna ask you. Here's the vibe that I picked up in high school. Number one, it's really actually a myth that our nation was founded on Christian principles by largely Christian men. They're really just all deists, and Christians like to exaggerate. That was kind of the vibe I picked up. Number two, again, they were almost all deists. They weren't really Christians. Jefferson, Franklin, Washington. All deists. You know, they didn't view Christianity or the Bible positively in any way, even if some were. This is what we're gonna do in the next few minutes for listeners. Even if some of them were Christians, they kept their Christianity out of politics. These are kind of the vibe I got in my education. Number four, separ. Church and state means that it's wrong. And the establishment clause, which I'll explain what that is for listeners in a second separation of church and state. And the establishment clause means that it's actually wrong to legislate from a Christian perspective. They never would have done that, and they would be appalled if somebody thought about that. Now, next one. America's original sin was obviously slavery and racism. They were all virulent racists who intentionally tried to found a nation on the backs of slaves. And all of them were that. And, well, there's some more, but that's primarily where we're going. And so anyway, I interrupted you. You were talking about you were kind of going like, hey, Josh, here's why you got that vibe when you were in high school. So you pick it up where you were.

[Tim Barton]

So. And let me back up a hair to give even more context, because one of the things that you have done such a great job is helping people recognize that there is a spiritual, cultural battle happening around us. And that includes there's a big push for a lot of Marxist ideology. And then an ideology Marx taught there's only two categories of people, it's the oppressed and the oppressor. Marx actually taught that sometimes you have to teach people they are oppressed and then encourage them to rise up against their oppressor. So we're seeing all this unfold around us, which, by way of background, that entered America at the beginning of World War II, because when Hitler comes to power, the Frankfurt School in Germany is the first one that Marxism was really taught.

[Josh]

Yeah, they were bad dudes. Frankfurt School was bad dudes, big time.

[Tim Barton]

Well, Hitler comes to power, and he's like, those guys are awful. The socialists thought the Marxists were way more dangerous. And so Hitler says, you all have to leave. He drives the entire wing of Frankfurt School, this Marxist teaching, he drives them out of Germany. Where do they go? They come to America. They open a wing in Columbia University.

[Josh]

Really.

[Tim Barton]

So that is where Marxism officially academically enters into America. It's taught at Columbia. And part of the background of Marx is not only do you have to sometimes teach people they're oppressed, there's only two categories of people. One of the things ultimately is there's also a lot of secularism in the midst of that. And so a lot of things that you know and already taught about. The reason I say it is because you can go back to the 1960s and track, I mean, just like, on a graph. Check the boxes. The Founding Fathers have been villainized and demonized since the 1960s, no question.

[Josh]

That was totally the vibe I got. And by the way, you know, you don't know me. I didn't grow up going to public school in, like, Portland. I grew up going to public school in Kentucky. Yeah, like, moderately conservative Kentucky. And that was still generally the vibe that I was getting from regular media and that kind of thing. These guys were bad dudes. They were, you know, all the things.

[Tim Barton]

So in the 60s and 70s, the narrative was that they were sexually immoral. They had affairs, illegitimate children. They were hooking up.

[Josh]

Jefferson, right?

[Tim Barton]

Among many, but yes, Jefferson, certainly one of them. When you get the 80s and 90s, the leading accusations they really weren't religious. They were atheist, agnostics. DS separation of church and state. That's the vibe I started, became a really big deal. And then from the 2000s to present, the narrative is there are all these racist, bigoted slaveholders.

[Josh]

Yep, that's the vibe.

[Tim Barton]

Right, so. But the reason I'm pointing this out is there's been a conservative effort for 60 to 70 years. Why? Because the Marxists were smart enough to know we can't change the system when there's a Constitution and Bill of Rights based on the Declaration and the principles that laid out. But if we can demonize the guys that did it, then we can say, well, then that's fruit of the poisonous tree and therefore we have to get rid of the Constitution, Bill of Rights. We can't base it on the Declaration because it was racist and all these other things. And I'm saying it because one of the things you talk about a lot, if you don't know you're in a propaganda war.

[Josh]

That's right.

[Tim Barton]

Right. You get susceptible to it. Most Americans have not realized we've been in a propaganda war for the birth and the soul of our nation in a lot of ways. And this is not to say, like, also, full disclaimer. This is not to say the Founding Fathers were not men that had sinned and in need of a savior. But it's worth pointing out because the modern narrative today is like, no, no, no. We find out they're a sinner, we cancel them. And it's like, guys, read your Bible for half a second.

[Josh]

For certain sins.

[Tim Barton]

Correct? And there's no doubt about it. But the thing that I feel like having a culture that has become more secular and even a church that is less biblical, we have forgotten our starting place, which is what Paul says in Romans, is, hey, we are all sinners in need of a savior. There's none righteous. No, not one. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So my starting place with George Washington is not that he was perfect. My starting place is that dude was a sinner in desperate need of a savior. But why does it matter? Because you're not going to show me him having a fleshly moment, and I'm going to be like, I didn't know he had a flesh right. I'm like, with that, Jesus came because none of us are going to be good enough ever. And we all are in need of a savior. But also why it matters is because if you look at our Hebrews of the Bible, King David, the reason we celebrate the story of King David is not because he didn't have major sins and flaws in his life. It's because we recognize how God used him in spite of his major flaws and sin in his life. And this is what we used to do with the founding fathers. George Washington was the father of the nation, not because he didn't have flaws, but because we recognize God used this guy in so remarkable ways. Had it not been for George Washington, we don't win the American Revolution. Had it not been for George Washington, we don't make it to the Constitutional Convention. George Washington is a guy the only president ever elected unanimously by the electoral college. And then he actually doesn't want to run for a third office because he wanted to, in his lifetime, have a peaceful transfer of power, which was something that had not been done in any of the.

[Josh]

Never been done in human history, if I understand it correctly, not the way

[Tim Barton]

they were doing it the first time ever. And so people look back and go, dude, that guy was one of the best among us. But today we're like, no, he had some sins. We got to cancel him for whatever those sins might be. And it's a really lack of biblical perspective, but also it's because we've embraced a lot of Marxist ideology not based on truth.

[Josh]

Yeah. Let me say two things, and I want you to keep showing me what you're getting ready to show me. Like, for listeners. I didn't know we were gonna talk about Marxism, but this is a big deal. So two things that people need understand about Marxism and how it's related to American culture right now is, first of all, what you're seeing right now is the culture war is downstream of a spiritual war. And that's a lot of people like, ah, Christians, just stay out of the culture war. Well, man, if it's downstream of a spiritual war, then that's actually what you're called to not away from. Obviously do it in correct ways and with appropriate proportionality. But the big deal that Marxism, which, by the way, critical theory and Marxism, those are. That's a. That's the same family is Christianity. It's Christian theology versus critical theory in our culture right now. And Christian theology divides the world between. It's a sin righteousness dividing line. Okay? Critical theory does not divide the world by. It's not a sin righteousness dividing line. It's an oppressed oppressor dividing line. Those are very. Two radically different dividing lines. And if. Here's why it becomes such a big deal, by the way, this is why There's a disproportionate amount of political violence that comes from primarily secular progressivism. Because if I believe that you're just mistaken, well, then I can reason with you. But if I view the entire world through the lens of oppressed oppressor, I don't think you're mistaken. I believe you're evil. And if I believe that you're evil, I begin to feel a moral obligation to stop you and oppose you. So that's number one. I think people need to internalize that reality. It's Christian theology versus critical theory is a war of worldviews. The other thing that I'm pointing out, and if you disagree with me and I hurt my feelings one bit, whenever people ask me about man, why is there such, like, an aggressive attempt to do revisionist history? I always go back to the same little axiom is rewrite the past to control the future. That's really the axiom. Rewrite the past to control the future. If I cast all the people who founded our nation as evil, wicked men, well, then now by rewriting the past, I'm controlling the future. And we need to reject whatever principles that they injected into our culture.

[Tim Barton]

Right. The past. Why?

[Josh]

In order to control the future.

[Tim Barton]

It's exactly what George Orwell wrote in 1984. He said, Whoever controls the past controls the present. Whoever controls the present controls the future.

[Josh]

I didn't know that. I've never heard that before.

[Tim Barton]

So that's what he. He was explaining it, obviously, this dystopian novel which feels way too real where we are now for those that have read it. But you're exactly right. If you can, if you are in the powers and structure of control, where you control the narrative, the narrative will be the rudder of the ship that determines what direction we go in the future. And. And so what? What evil needs to be stopped? Is it the evil of sin and we need a savior? Or is it the evil of the oppressor that has to be overthrown?

[Josh]

Yeah. Wow. Okay.

[Tim Barton]

So.

[Josh]

All right, totally agree. Well, let's keep going.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah. So let's go back. The reason so many people have bought into this modern narrative, which, again, it's largely Marxist propaganda, among other things. There are books like this. So this is written by two professors at Cornell University called the Godless Constitution. Their whole premise is the Founding Fathers. First of all, they really weren't religious, and they really didn't want religion in government. They go through this entire book laying out their case. And I can tell you, I have to read a lot of dumb things for work.

[Josh]

Okay. That's amazing.

[Tim Barton]

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. And I say that with confidence. It was painfully dumb because they make all of these claims and they have things in quotation marks. And usually if you ever write a paper, you have some in quotation marks. You need to say who actually said that or where that's from. So if you go to the back of the book where you should have your footnotes, there's a note on sources.

[Josh]

Okay. Can you see that? Hold it up. Can you see it? Hold it. Stretch it out there. Let's see.

[Tim Barton]

I want to see.

[Josh]

So it's out of focus. All right. It says, a note on sources.

[Tim Barton]

Do you want to read it for him?

[Josh]

Yeah, sure. What do you want me to read?

[Tim Barton]

Just that. That beginning paragraph.

[Josh]

All right. Because we have intended the book to reach a general audience, and also because the material we have cited is, for the most part, familiar to historians and political scientists, we have dis. Bro.

[Tim Barton]

What?

[Josh]

We have dispensed with the usually scholarly apparatus of footnotes.

[Tim Barton]

Okay, hard pause, hard pause. Are you kidding? These are two college professors who wrote a history book and did not include a footnote in it.

[Josh]

So essentially, this is an academic way of saying sources. Trust me, bro, 100%. That's what that is.

[Tim Barton]

Are you kidding?

[Josh]

Do you want me to keep reading? So they're using this to teach college students. Our founding had nothing to do with Christian principles. And the sources are. Trust me, bro.

[Tim Barton]

It is still taught in Ivy League universities. It's used in law schools. Are you kidding me? That is still a significantly utilized textbook. And so here's what's crazy. So this is about the Constitution. The Constitution was written in the state. 1700s. Right. So they actually do go on to say there are some books we would recommend you to read if you want to know more about this. Well, that's fair. Except what books they recommend. Don't worry about the titles. Look, it'll be on this page, the next page. Look and see. What are the dates of the book they recommend? Remember, the Constitution was written in the 1700s. So if you want to know about that, you probably need books written close to that time to.

[Josh]

Which is what you do. All your footnotes are original sources.

[Tim Barton]

Original sources.

[Josh]

1700s. Right.

[Tim Barton]

1800s, et cetera. Yes.

[Josh]

So you just want me to read the dates?

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, just the dates.

[Josh]

That is hilarious. 1990-1989-1994-1981, 1967-1965-1975-1987, 1987. 1984, Holy Moses, 1998, Holy Moses.

[Tim Barton]

They don't have a single source from before the 1950s.

[Josh]

Whoa.

[Tim Barton]

And they're like, guys, we know that the founding fathers never wanted God to be a part of. We know that. And well, like we can't side it, but just trust. And by the way, read our other college professor friends who wrote books and then you'll learn.

[Josh]

That's insane. So this is still being used. Correct. In some, like in an Ivy League school.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

That's nuts.

[Tim Barton]

So let me offer contrast. So there's a professor decades ago who wrote a book called the Origins of American Constitutionalism. His goal was to go back and go through decades of the founders writings. And what he wanted to do is see where did they come up with their ideas. And if we can see where they got their ideas, then we'll really understand who their influences were. So he goes through this entire book laying out all of these thoughts and ultimately he finds his parameter for the research study is I'm looking for things in quotation marks and I'll look up who they quoted and I'm going to make this chart, this graph to see who they quoted. And that's what he does here. Now this is one of his final graphs where he points out these are the most quoted individuals. So it's guys like Montesquieu and Blackstone and John Locke.

[Josh]

People most quoted in what again?

[Tim Barton]

In their writing. So in their letters, the writings of the founders fathers. Correct. Good clarification. But here's what's interesting. He breaks them in a category. So he says here's the most quoted individuals, the most quoted source. What's the top one on that list? And look all the way to the right to get your percentage of that chart.

[Josh]

This is crazy. The Bible, the Bible, the Bible.

[Tim Barton]

34% of all of the quotes he found in their writings came from the Bible.

[Josh]

Holy cow.

[Tim Barton]

Here's what's more interesting about it though. So the whole book he goes to explaining how this process, what he did. And this took him nearly 20 years to go because he was going through such an expansive volume.

[Josh]

Is this dude a Christian?

[Tim Barton]

He was not.

[Josh]

He was not when he wrote this. And he. That's insane. And he's okay, so here's how it goes. It goes Bible. So this is 34% of all quotes in their writings?

[Tim Barton]

Yes, everything they found from the Bible.

[Josh]

So it goes Bible and then it. Dude. And then it groups together literally the entire enlightenment. And that comes in second at 19%. I won't go through the rest, Whig, common law, classical, other, but Bible top.

[Tim Barton]

Well, and what's worth noting too is like, even in the Enlightenment, there were Christian Enlightenment writers. So like Montesquieu was a Christian writer, Blackstone Christian writer, John Locke, Christian writer. So the three most quoted Enlightenment thinkers were all Christian writers influencing it. But the reason I pointed out is that this is considered one of the most academically historically correct studies of their writings. Never been refuted. So the idea that they didn't believe in God, didn't want God, and the thing they quote the most in their writings is the Bible. And it's not even close. What's even better about this is Donna Lutz said that because they had to have parameters like the box around their study, he said the parameter was quotation marks. He said, but when we were reading their letters, they referenced the Bible so much that wasn't in quotation marks. Had we included all the obvious references, the number would have been far higher than 34%. And I would contend it's actually well over 40%, probably over 50% when you actually read and say to the writings. But why it matters is because today we're told, no, they were secular, they didn't believe in God, didn't believe in

[Josh]

the Bible, they were deists. That's what I kind of got the vibe of. Oh, they were all deists.

[Tim Barton]

So this is a book called the New England Clergy and the American Revolution. It was written by a lady named Alice Baldwin. She started the woman's program.

[Josh]

Not to be confused with Alec Baldwin.

[Tim Barton]

Correct. She started the woman's program.

[Josh]

You don't think I'm funny at all. I'm not funny. I'm not funny.

[Tim Barton]

I gave a charity laugh. I felt like that was fun.

[Josh]

Thank you. Thank you, Tim. You keep going.

[Tim Barton]

So.

[Josh]

All right. Keep going.

[Tim Barton]

She started the woman's program at Duke University, but she wrote a book highlighting what she identifies as the most significant influence on the Founding Father. And it was their pastors. Now the book is 170 pages. People can get online and still find it and read it. And I would highly recommend you do. But if you get online and read it, if you don't have time to do the whole thing, just go to the conclusion. The conclusion is only five pages. Conclusion, super easy. But she's gonna wrap all the thoughts together. Okay, Right here at the bottom of that middle paragraph, there's a sentence that starts there. There is not.

[Josh]

Help me.

[Tim Barton]

Okay, Right here.

[Josh]

There it is. I see it. You want me to read that sentence?

[Tim Barton]

Read that sentence.

[Josh]

There is not a right asserted in the Declaration of Independence, which had not been discussed by the New England clergy brother insane before 1763.

[Tim Barton]

Okay, Paul's right there. She actually, in her conclusion, what she just said is that the pastors are the ones that actually first came up with all of the rights identified in the Declaration. Her entire book goes on to point out the Founding Fathers didn't have a single unique idea. It was the things they'd been hearing from their pastors for decades building up to that moment. Now, here's why these two books are a great contrast to this one. The number one quoted source in their writings was the Bible. The most influential voice in their life was their pastors.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

And today we think they were secular.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

You can only think that if you

[Josh]

have never studied or read their writings, you got deprogrammed.

[Tim Barton]

Correct. So let me go a little further. Okay. So John Hancock. And this is big and awkward. So good job, team in Trinity for making this happen.

[Josh]

That's right.

[Tim Barton]

Shout out Trinity. So I'm trying to get the glare off it wherever it is. Okay. Closer to me. There we go.

[Josh]

We'll b roll it and see if we can put it up.

[Tim Barton]

Perfect. So this is a John Hancock. This is a prayer proclamation. It's for right underneath here. It says for fasting, humiliation and prayer. And he actually had 22 prayer proclamations. He did as governor. Most people know his famous signature. They have no idea he was an outspoken Christian.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

Okay, let's go a little further. So in this time of calling people to prayer and fasting, the opening thing he wants them to pray for, he says, calling upon ministers and people of every denomination to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God by a penitent confession of their sins and to implore his forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. The first thing he says we need to pray for is that if you haven't been forgiven, you need to repent, be forgiven of your sins. But then that everybody who doesn't know Jesus personally would come to the saving knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

[Josh]

He prayed for that. He issued a proclamation.

[Tim Barton]

22 proclamations. He issued.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

22 of them. In fact, we own over 700 original ones at wall builders. So this is one of the original ones we own. By 1815, there had been more than 1400 issued by the government, by governors, by president, or by Congress itself.

[Josh]

Say that one more time. That is a stunning statistic.

[Tim Barton]

By 1815, there were more than 1400 official government issued prayer proclamations. Done by governors, by presidents, or by Congress. And what's also worth noting, John Hancock was a signer of the declaration. President of Congress, when it all unfolds. But every single guy that signed the declaration, every single one that went on to be governor, issued prayer proclamations.

[Josh]

Wow. Okay.

[Tim Barton]

So here's what's also worth noting. When people are like, wait a second, we can't have religion in government. They actually viewed it the exact opposite. They understood that without God's intervention, we will never succeed in what we were doing. And so one of the things you said, like, let's unfold and unpack for the listeners in a minute, was like, the separation of church and state and the establishment clause.

[Josh]

Can I set this up, please? Yeah, let me. Okay, so I want a devil's advocate.

[Tim Barton]

Let's do it.

[Josh]

All right, so like. But, Tim, I'm gonna do two. But, Tim, let's do. Let's take it one by one. Let's talk separation church and state, and then let's talk establishment clause. Actually, let's do establishment clause first. Because honestly, I think that's the harder one. I'm interested. We haven't talked about this. So the establishment clause, obviously that's in the First Amendment. I'm gonna read the specific part of the establishment clause in the First Amendment that makes people say, but, Tim, they obviously intended the opposite of what you're saying for there not to be any Christian influence officially in the government. And here's how it reads, just the pertinent part. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Right there, Tim. Yeah, First Amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. What say you, Tim Barton?

[Tim Barton]

So it is absolutely true, and I support that. But there's context. You have to know in the midst of it. So one of the. There was an 1898 Supreme Court case. It was the United States versus the Church of the Holy Trinity, and there was actually an immigration shutdown that America said, we're not doing immigration right now. Like, hard pause on this. Interesting thought right now. But hard pause on immigration. And there was a church, and they said, we need a new pastor, and he's over in Europe. And you're saying, we cannot bring anybody into work in America right now. So the case goes all the way up to U.S. supreme Court. And one of the things they said and the reason I bring it up in that case, they gave a really great measurement tool. They explained.

[Josh]

What was the name of the case?

[Tim Barton]

It's the United States versus the Church of the Holy Trinity. It's 18. Oh, I said 98. 1892, I think is when it is 1892. And one of the things they said in the case is that if you want to understand why the First Amendment was written, because they were arguing this violates our free expression of religion because by not letting us have our pastor, we can't freely practice our religion. And so the Supreme Court said, if you want to understand a law, this is their quote. You must first understand the evil that was intended to be remedied by that law. Meaning what problem were they trying to solve? Okay, so let's back up. So when America is being formed, it's immigrants largely coming from Europe more than anything else, but the majority of them are escaping religious persecution. Because you had, for example, the Anglicans in England. If you were an Anglican, you didn't have the freedom of religion.

[Josh]

Really quick, for listeners, you need to lean in really close right here to what Tim's about to say. This what he's getting ready to explain over you gone. What he's getting ready to explain explains both the establishment clause and gives context to what the original intention of separation of church and state means and does not mean. And it's a linchpin upon which a lot of these arguments resolve. So you keep going, everybody lean in. This is really important.

[Tim Barton]

So what problem they trying to solve? And England, it was the Church of England is Anglican and they actually had laws that you couldn't meet. You couldn't have a home Bible study. If there's more than four people and it's not being led by an Anglican priest or bishop, you can actually be arrested and go to jail. Which is how William Penn and other noted leaders in early America got actually imprisoned, et cetera. Well, you can go to Germany. Germany they said we're all going to be Lutheran. Right. Because that's our guy Martin Luther. In Italy, they were Catholic. And so the people coming to America are escaping a place where they were told you can only do this establishment of religion.

[Josh]

That's right.

[Tim Barton]

And so when they came here, formal state churches.

[Josh]

So this is important because it's also going to get to actually, in retrospect, we should have done separation church and state first, because this is also going to explain what is meant by separation church and state. So when Tim's talking about they had formal established religions, what he's saying is that there was really no organizational separation in the leadership structures of the church and the state. The state. State recognized a formal typically denomination as the official religion of that nation. So you would have a Presbyterian nation or a Congregationalist. I don't know if these are examples, but a Catholic nation, that kind of thing. And there was. The leadership structure of the church was embedded and enmeshed and intertwined with the leadership structure of the government. Yes. So that's what Tim means when he says they had a formal quote, assessment, establishment of religion.

[Tim Barton]

You keep going, I keep interrupting. The government actually was able to pass laws and doctrines like how did the England church start in the first place? Cuz King Henry vii, he really wanted a son and his wife kept giving him daughters. And he's like, what's wrong with this woman?

[Josh]

How do I divorce her?

[Tim Barton]

Like biology. By the way, bro, that's your, that's on you.

[Josh]

Right?

[Tim Barton]

That's, that's not her, that's, that's your problem. But he wants a divorce.

[Josh]

Wear boxers. Keep going.

[Tim Barton]

Live free. That was amazing.

[Josh]

Oh, keep going.

[Tim Barton]

So he goes to the Pope and amazing.

[Josh]

We've derailed.

[Tim Barton]

He tells the Pope, I want a divorce. And the Pope's like, you don't arbitrarily. Like we don't do these divorces for these non biblical reasons. And he gets offended and he says, and I'm not gonna be Catholic anymore. And he starts the Anglican Church and he actually says, as head of the Anglican Church, I will grant myself a divorce. And then he starts changing things he didn't like about the Catholic church. And then actually parliament in England, they're like their Congress, they start passing laws on what is legal and not legal in their official church in England. So this is not pastors reading the Bible saying we're going to do what the Bible says based on our interpretation of the Bible. This is literally the government saying that we are going to tell you how. Which I mean this shouldn't be confusing for any American. Like we would never let President Trump say, hey, as Christians, you have to do it this way. Not we're like, bro, no, who are you even?

[Josh]

Right?

[Tim Barton]

But we support a separation of church and state. But this is what's significant and kind of what we're alluding to. We support in a separation of institutions, not a secularization of institutions.

[Josh]

That's really good.

[Tim Barton]

Right, Because God made different institutions, but God was over both of them. So just because we recognize they're separate, we don't believe they're secular. And none of the founding fathers did

[Josh]

either, by the way. I'll just interject, I covered this more on the Tucker Carlson react episode. It was like a week and a half ago. So if you want to hear more about it, go hit that. But the concept of separation church and state is an explicitly biblical concept. So if you go back to how God designed the Old Testament government structure in Israel, you go to Deuteronomy. I think it's Deuteronomy 17 and Deuteronomy 18. I might be getting the chapters wrong, but he specifically sets up two separate, essentially systems of government. And there's a spiritual leadership that's under Aaron. So it's Aaron and the priesthood. And that's one. There's your spiritual leadership. And then he sets up an entire separate, I'm going to emphasize that word, a separate system of governance for civilization, for civil leadership. And that's Moses and the Judges. So the concept of separation church and state is not anti biblical. It's actually derived from a biblical concept.

[Tim Barton]

And to add one layer onto that, the Bible gives further examples. Because King Uzziah was, was the guy that the Bible tells us God gave him inventions of war. God gave him victory. And actually he's coming back one day from a victory. And he wanted to go by the temple, he wanted to offer incense to thank God for victory. Right. The priest meets him, is like, sir, how can I help you? He says, I'm going into offerencies. And he says, sir, you can't go in there. Right. Which obviously people don't know the Bible. There was all kinds of reasons. And the priest had to go through cleanliness and whatever. And so he tells him, like, sir, that's not your job. And the king basically says, I'm the king. You're not gonna tell me no. And he goes in there, the Bible says that God struck him with leprosy. He turned and fled a leper. He ends up dying of leprosy. God made it pretty clear that you have now violated the institutional separation. God had just given him victory in war. God was not anti this guy. But when you stepped out of your lane and stepped over to do something that God had clearly made separate from you, that was a problem in God's eyes. And God showed it biblically in scripture. So the Bible supports a separation, but not a secularization.

[Lake Pointe Church Announcer]

Well, hey, Lake Point family baptism weekend here at Lake Point is coming up on May 2nd and 3rd. And if you're part of our church family here in any of our DFW physical locations, and you have not yet taken that step of baptism, hey, we would love to invite you to do so. Text the word LIFE to 20411 to sign up today. And by the way, if you're not within driving distance of any of our physical locations. We would love to encourage you to get plugged into a local Bible believing Jesus loving church and take that step of baptism with a local community as well. Also, you're welcome to join us for church online to celebrate those getting baptized here at Lake Point on May 2nd and 3rd as well. And now back to the podcast.

[Josh]

Okay, now let me take you back to where we started. Where I derailed you is you were talking about. I'm actually looking at it right now, so if you want me to read it, I can read it. The supreme court ruling in 1892, Church of the Holy Trinity versus United States. You keep going. We haven't told them what happened there yet, so.

[Tim Barton]

But the reason I bring it up is when they were trying to decipher how do we determine like can immigration violate the First Amendment? Can an immigration law if they're bringing in for religion. And this is where they said that the way we have to interpret the First Amendment is determine the evil that was intended to be remedy. So that's the big thing. So the way we read the First Amendment, which includes the establishment clause, is what evil were they trying to remedy? So when we come to America, it's people that were escaping a state controlled, a government controlled church. And so when the founding Fathers come together, actually nine of the original 13 colonies had stated state established religion.

[Josh]

A lot of people do not know that. Yep. And it's written into their state constitutions, correct? Yeah. You said nine of the 13.

[Tim Barton]

Nine of the 13. And technically there were two more that were pretty stinging close to that, but didn't quite like cross the line, but really had a lot of religious requirements. Not to digress too much on that, but the reason it matters is when the Founding Fathers write that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It wasn't establishment like, well, whether it's Hindu or the Buddhist or the Muslims or the Christians. No, no, it's. So it's literally saying in our nation where we've already acknowledged there's a God and our rights come from him and government's main job is protect those rights. We laid that in the Declaration. They're saying we're not going to pick and say everybody's got to be a Presbyterian or a Catholic or a Baptist or a Methodist, that no, we're not going to have an establishment of religion and we're not going to let the government tell people they can't freely worship because that's what happened in Europe that led all of Their fathers and grandparents and great grandparents to come to the New World in the first place. They were solving a problem they had in Europe. But if we read that with a modern lens, a modern eye, and don't understand the historic context, and we go, oh, well, clearly you can't have Christianity in America, which contradicts virtually everything the founding fathers believed and built intentionally. When the Founding father said John Adams most famous letter was in this regard, not his most famous letter, but one of my favorite letters in this regard. He wrote a letter to the militia of Massachusetts in 1898. And I try to give some details on all these so people can go look it up if they want to. It's like five paragraphs. It's not very hard to find. And the most famous line from that is where he says, our Constitution was made only for a moral and a religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. And the basic premise is because in America we believed in giving freedom to people, but freedom only works if you have a moral people because you give freedom to immoral people. It's like Chicago on a bad weekend, right? It's not good. And so they said you have to have religion and morality. Well, first of all, they're not anti religion if he's saying we have to have religion, number one. But number two, again, this is not ambiguous religion. They're actually very specific. It was the religion of Christianity when he says religion and morality, the morality was the morals of Jesus from the Bible and including the Ten Commandments, because they write all of these. So if you read their writings, what they're saying literally over and over is our nation won't work without Christianity in the Bible. That this whole experiment is going to go by the wayside if we don't do that. And so everything they built was directed that way. Which is also why when the Founding Fathers were in charge in 1777, these are original New England primers. These were the first textbooks the first readers printed in America. They were first done in 1690, used all the way through the early 1900s in public school in America. Okay, so if you went to school that this is your first grade textbook. That's what these are.

[Josh]

Hold those up so they can see them real good.

[Tim Barton]

So these are New England primers. These are first grade textbooks.

[Josh]

When are those. So when were those specific ones?

[Tim Barton]

This one I think is 1790. This one I think is like 1812. 1818.

[Josh]

That's awesome.

[Tim Barton]

So I can look in the front of them and see. But the reason it matters is because as you go through these, there is so much overwhelmingly Christian content in them.

[Josh]

Well, stupid. You were showing me this beforehand. Do the thing you showed me that blew my mind, so. Well,

[Tim Barton]

let me do one that I didn't show you that way. It's a cold read for you. This is the very first ever question and answer, so I'm just gonna show you. So actually not you. I'm gonna show everybody else online. Josh, don't look at the screen. You're cheating.

[Josh]

My bad. My bad.

[Tim Barton]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so this is the first Q and A in the entire book. Now, they've had to learn some things up to this, and, as I showed you, extremely religious. This is the first question and answer. Here's the first question. Who was the first man?

[Josh]

Yeah. Adam.

[Tim Barton]

Adam. Yeah, that's correct. Adam. Who was the first woman?

[Josh]

Eve.

[Tim Barton]

Who was the first murderer?

[Josh]

Cain.

[Tim Barton]

Who was the first martyr? First one killed?

[Josh]

Abel.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah. Who was the first translated? Let me back you up. He walked with God and was no more because God took him.

[Josh]

Enoch.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah. Who was the oldest man who built the ark?

[Josh]

Noah.

[Tim Barton]

Who is the most faithful man? He was called a friend of God.

[Josh]

Abram.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah. Abraham. Who was the meekest man, wrote it about himself. It's a little interesting, right? Who wrestled with the angel of God? Jacob. Who?

[Josh]

I don't like getting quizzed online.

[Tim Barton]

I just want to tell you 100%. I apologize, but that's the first Q and A in this book, dude.

[Josh]

This is what they were teaching in schools they used in the school system.

[Tim Barton]

Correct. And the book finishes. Every kid had to go through this. The very end of this book is Westminster Shorter Catechism, which is more than 100 questions on faith and theology, by the way.

[Josh]

For the people who don't know, the Westminster Shorter Catechism was created by the Presbyterian Church. This is, like, explicit when he says, this is explicitly Christian theology.

[Tim Barton]

100% so. But again, the reason it matters is the New England.

[Josh]

That's what every kid grows up until. Until about when Using as their textbook in their school system.

[Tim Barton]

This was the first grade textbook from 1690 all the way through the early 1900s in American public schools.

[Josh]

I just want to pause and stop and think about how different your nation ends up if that's what every kid in the United States grows up inundated with.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

From the time they walk into a school.

[Tim Barton]

So John Hancock was the governor of Massachusetts. He. He reprinted one of these in Massachusetts. Noah Webster, the guy that gave us a dictionary, he had one reprinted in Connecticut. Benjamin Franklin, who became the president of Pennsylvania. That's what they called the early governor he reprinted in Pennsylvania. So these are literal founding noted names.

[Josh]

Founding fathers in their governing roles.

[Tim Barton]

Correct. That as governing leaders actually had religious material printed for their students because they knew without religion, morality, this experiment will never work.

[Josh]

I'm going to throw an objection at you, Tim. Hey, Tim. But I've got it right in front of me. I'm going to do the Treaty of Tripoli, quote.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, let's go.

[Josh]

Okay, but Tim, you're obviously wrong, Tim. I like doing this because in the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797, Article 11 of it, which was negotiated under George Washington. I'm actually fascinated to see how you respond to this. And was signed by President John Adams and ratified unanimously by the US Senate. It says the following, Tim, as the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims. And as the said states never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan, that means Muslim nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. Tim, it just said right there. Yeah, it said what it was.

[Tim Barton]

So let me first of all applaud you for reading the whole thing, because most people go, america's in no sense found in the Christian religion. I always go, yeah, what's the rest of that statement?

[Josh]

So here's why I bring this up for the uninitiated that if you start talking about what we're talking about in this podcast, that right there is going to get lobbed. It's the first thing that gets lobbed at you. So I'm actually curious. Okay, keep going, keep going.

[Tim Barton]

Okay. So if you read the whole thing, it doesn't say we're not in any sense found in the Christian religion. It says we're not in any sense found in the Christian religion, as in we have no hostility against. And it goes through all these things. Right, so what might be the context behind this? Well, there was this thing back in the day called the Crusades. And when we were British colonies, we were one of as Great Britain. There was 11 nations. I think it was 11. At that time it was eight, then it was nine. I think it was in 11 that the Barbary powers of North Africa, specifically they had declared war on all of the Christian nations. And England was one of the Christian nations. But we separate from Great Britain. And by the way, there's so much background and context on this because we end up when we separate from Great Britain, the Muslim pirates begin attacking some of our trade ships. And so John Adams and Jefferson were actually some of the first diplomats to go try to negotiate an end. Men like, guys, we're not the ones you're at war with. Like, we don't like them either.

[Josh]

We're cutting our heads off, right?

[Tim Barton]

And so it leads to them negotiating. It's actually, it leads to Jefferson buying his very first ever Quran. Because when he came back, he had been told, and this is their report to Congress, he had been told by the Muslim ambassador, I think from Algiers. He said the only way that we could live at peace with the Muslim men, he said, is that we have to fight well or pay well.

[Josh]

And is that the Jizya or whatever it is?

[Tim Barton]

The Jizya, however you say that. But yes, that basically if you can fund them for their holy wars, they'll keep you around. But once you don't, then you're fair game. But Jefferson then asked him, he says, why are you targeting us because we've never done anything against you. And he the, and this again, this is his report to Congress. The ambassador tells him that our holy book requires that we make war on the infidel. And Jefferson's like, there's no way a religious book is telling you to make war. And so he buys a Quran so he can read it for himself. Okay, so the conflict goes on. When we finally, we don't resolve it, we continue to have trade ships that are attacked, people that are being enslaved by these Muslim pirates. They're going into the African slave trade, et cetera. And when George Washington becomes president under our Constitution, one of the things that happens under the first federal budget is they have to allocate that. I think the first budget was 10% of their funds to paying the pirates to please leave our ships alone. So we do this.

[Josh]

The United States had to do this.

[Tim Barton]

The United States under George Washington, under the very, the very first ever federal budget, they have to pay about 10% of that budget to these Muslim pirates to stop attacking us.

[Josh]

I've never heard that before in my life.

[Tim Barton]

Okay, so let's, let's go further. They continue to attack ships and they try to ransom them back. So they're again trying to make money off of us. And this is where George Washington, the famous line he has is wood to heaven that I had a navy to crush these infidels into non existence he said that. He said that. And it's actually in a letter he wrote to Congress.

[Josh]

It's kind of awesome. A little bit.

[Tim Barton]

It's a letter he wrote. I mean, it shows. Like, this is a warrior, right? He's like, I could solve this problem. But he wrote a letter to Congress, and he said, can we please build an 8? So Congress agrees and they begin building a navy. But up to this point, we, at the end of the American Revolution, we didn't believe in a standing army. That was one of the grievances we had in the Declaration. So we disbanded our military. Largely speaking, we don't have a navy. We don't have an army. So he goes back to Congress, says, can we please get a navy? So they commission it. Well, during this time, we are having ships being captured. What's worth noting about the Treaty of Tripoli? Number one, we didn't write it. Number two was in a language we couldn't read. Number three, we knew it would put an end to what we were doing.

[Josh]

Who wrote it in what language?

[Tim Barton]

So it was written. It was written over in. If you don't know, this is not a hard one to look up. Yeah, somebody on the side can look this up for us, maybe. But it was written over. And I want to say Africa, but now I'm thinking that maybe they were somewhere else while this was written. And I appreciate you looking it up.

[Josh]

I'm looking it up.

[Tim Barton]

But they were just trying to get an end to this. The Navy is completed under John Adams. John Adams does not send the Navy in one of his explanations. And by the way, everything I'm saying, like, this is very well documented. There's a lot of books written about this.

[Josh]

Like, I was pulling up, Treaty of Tripoli signed November 4, 1796, at Tripoli of Barbary, was originally written in Arabic.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, so. So which one of the American ambassadors was reading that?

[Josh]

That? I got no idea, dude.

[Tim Barton]

None of them.

[Josh]

Yeah. Oh, interesting.

[Tim Barton]

So they were. So who wrote it? They're ambassadors. So we were told what it said. We agreed to it because it stopped the conflict. But part of what we had argued is like, guys, we're not the Crusade warriors that you have an enemy with. Like that. That's not us. We're not one of these nations found on the Christian religion that you've been going to war with. But let's keep going forward, because, also worth noting, there were lots of treaties. Like, every year or two, there was a new treaty because they kept attacking, we kept negotiating. That's the only one of the Treaties with that line.

[Josh]

Okay, okay.

[Tim Barton]

Well, that's interesting, because guess what? Every other one of the treaties has that we were a Christian nation. Well, nobody mentions all the other treaties, but let me back up to John Adams. So the Navy is built under John Adams, but John Adams does not send the Navy. And one of the things he wrote about it, he says the American people do not have the stomach for a prolonged war. Why does that matter? Because you're not just fighting some military power. It's an ideology that's behind the military power. And he's like, this is going to take way longer, and the American people don't have a stomach for it. But at that point there, our American budget has grown and their monetary demands have grown. When Jefferson gets there, our budget is significantly larger as president when he's there, but their demands are up to 15% of the federal budget. And this is when Jefferson's like, screw it. Send in the Navy. And this is when the Barbie Powers War really takes place. All of this is background context, because, again, if you know the context, you go, okay, well, there's a lot more treaties they wrote. And all the other treaties actually do say we were Christian nation number one. Number two, this is identifying, first of all, that we're not one of the Christian nations that was at the Crusades. And then otherwise we can go further. They didn't even read what it said. They didn't know what it said when they agreed to it. We didn't write that when they wrote that one.

[Josh]

That's kind of like, you know, I'm a pretty big US History guy. I've read that a million times. I've never heard that for. In my life, my whole life, I never heard what you just said.

[Tim Barton]

All right, well, and by the way, you looked it up.

[Josh]

Yeah, I did.

[Tim Barton]

Right?

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

This was not in a language when they agreed to this. Now, ultimately, it was eventually translated, and they eventually did see it, but their goal is we just have to end this conflict while we're building our Navy.

[Josh]

Okay, interesting. All right, let's go to the other one. But, Tim, the separation of church and state means it's wrong to legislate from a Christian perspective or to bring, you know, some of this stuff you're talking about right here was clearly a violation of separation of church of state. Now, to tee you up correctly, I'm gonna read where the phrase separation of church and state originally came from. I've referenced it a bunch of times on the podcast. I'm actually gonna read it for the first time so that phrase is nowhere in our founding documents. That needs to be stated. It's nowhere in any founding document. We lift that phrase from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury baptists. Yes. In 1802. And if I understand correctly, they were concerned about an establishment of religion causing problems for them.

[Tim Barton]

They wrote him, I think it was October 7th, 1801.

[Josh]

Bro, you're like a computer. This is amazing. This is the first time we talked in person. Okay, keep going.

[Tim Barton]

So they were concerned that they were where they were in Connecticut. It was largely Congregationalist and the Baptists were the smallest denomination at the time.

[Josh]

Here's what that means for listeners. What he's talking about is a system of church governance. So churches have a few generalized systems of church governments. Congregationalists believe Congregationalists are typically different than like Presbyterians are elder led churches and church polity. So they're led by a group of biblically qualified elders. Congregationalists. Baptists have historically been known as Congregationalists and they believe that the highest authority in a church is the congregation. That's where you get like Baptist business meetings where it comes together and they vote and everything. So just to give listeners a translation, what he's talking about. That's what he's talking about. So the Baptists were Congregationalists. I interrupt you, you keep going.

[Tim Barton]

Well, and the Congregationalists were the descendants of the Pilgrims and Puritans. Right. So that's where this all originates. But the Baptists had broken off from the larger Congregationalist because that was Roger Williams, among others. But they were concerned that the Congregationalists might exert their muscle or the Anglicans that were also super big and they were afraid they were going to be

[Josh]

squished out, which is what happened. That's why we came over here to flee that kind of thing in Europe and England. Can I read the part of the letter, please? Okay, so here's where, you know, you hear this phrase all the time but you don't know where it came from. This is where it came from. I'm going to read direct quote from Thomas Jefferson's letter to the danbury Baptist in 1802. Jefferson I contemplate with sovereign reverence. By the way, that's an interesting phrase for a deist to use. I'll just. That's interesting. Yeah. I contemplate with sovereign reverence that that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should, quote, make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. So he's quoting the establishment clause which we just talked about. Thus building, and here's where this phrase comes from. Thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

[Tim Barton]

What he told them is, guys, they were concerned the government might come and squish them out. And he says, you don't need to worry about the government interfering with your religious practice. He says, we've the First Amendment, it's built a wall to protect you. Now what he's doing is writing a private letter assuring people that they're gonna have religious freedom in America. What he's not saying is that that wall keeps any kind of religion out of government. How do we know that? Cuz he wrote that letter on January 1, 1802. That's a Friday on January 3, 1802.

[Josh]

Bro, this is amazing. So you're quoting word for word. I've got a section that I copied and pasted from your book, the American Story. I was gonna read it. But you're quoting it word for word. Because you're a dang computer. Keep going.

[Tim Barton]

That's hilarious. Cause I don't know that I've read that since we wrote it.

[Josh]

I'm gonna read it if you miss anything.

[Tim Barton]

Fact check as we go. So January 3rd is a Sunday. He actually goes to church at the Capitol building, which by way of background, he's the one that actually approved church to be held in the Capitol building. Up through the Civil War, the largest Protestant church in America was held in the US Capitol building.

[Josh]

Pause. And let that sink in. I just want everyone to let that sink in. Okay, you said the largest.

[Tim Barton]

The largest Protestant church in America was.

[Josh]

Took place weekly worship services inside of the U.S. capitol building that was funded to be constructed by United States Congress. Right?

[Tim Barton]

Yes, and often. Chap. Well, so it was. What they recognize is that Congress doesn't meet on Sundays because Constitution says Sundays are accepted, which is a whole nother rabbit trail. But it's the influence of Christianity that we have that as a Sabbath. We're not gonna work on this Sabbath or our Sabbath a Sunday. Right. We recognize that first day of the week we give to God. But they said, the chaplain said, there's this amazing building we just built. This is the best thing in dc. Nobody's using it on Sunday. Cause we hold church in it. So Congress approves the chaplains to start their own churches in the Capitol building. The chaplains, by the way, being paid by Congress. And so Congress doesn't directly fund it, but indirectly they're totally funding this thing. And they approve for church to be held there. But again, Thomas Jefferson was one of the Two people that approved for church to be held in the Capitol building. And then he writes this letter on a Friday. Two days later, he attends church in the Capitol building that he approved to be there. Oh, by the way, the guy speaking that day is the Reverend John Leland, who's one of his friends, a Baptist pastor that he had personally invited to be there and preach that day. So you have Jefferson saying separation of church and state. Friday, two days later, is at the Capitol building listening to his friend give a sermon. He clearly did not think it meant what today we are told it means. And it's only because we have lost so much of the story of our history that we would even perceive that's what it could be today. Because we're listening to too many professors who don't have their footnotes.

[Josh]

Bingo.

[Tim Barton]

As opposed to. So I haven't showed you these two yet.

[Josh]

Show them to me. Can I see them?

[Tim Barton]

So this.

[Josh]

Can I. Wait. While you're grabbing those, can I finish reading what you wrote in your book?

[Tim Barton]

Yes.

[Josh]

Okay, so here's why this is a big deal for listeners. Like, here's what we're doing is listen. This is really interesting history. What we want to be is disciples of Jesus Christ. And we want to apply our discipleship in every realm that the Lord has called us to apply it. We talked about this off air, that God in the Scriptures established three institutions by which the flourishing of the world takes place. The family, the church, and the state. State. And very frequently what happens is churches are really good at applying the Scriptures to individual disciples, applying the Scriptures to building great Christian families, and applying the Scriptures to churches. But we do not, at least in my generation, have not done a good job of applying the Scriptures to creating statesmen and stateswomen so that we apply the Scriptures in the realm of the state. Okay, so this is why we're doing this. I'm gonna read. Let me read this. And then you do some show and tell. I have no idea what you're getting ready to do. So this is what you wrote in your book. And this blew my mind. Like, I've got underlined and all caps in my little notes. So it says this. In fact, Jefferson wrote his famous Wall of separation letter on Friday, January 1st. Two days later, on Sunday, January 3rd, he attended church at the Capitol Building, listening to his friend, Reverend John Leland preach the sermon. Each Sunday, Jefferson rode his horse 1.6 miles from the White House to the church at the Capitol Building. And he made this ride regardless of weather conditions. In fact, among Representative Cutler's entries. This guy had a journal.

[Tim Barton]

Manasseh Cutler.

[Josh]

Okay, I don't know who that is. Is one noting that quote. It was very rainy, but Jefferson's ardent zeal brought him back through the rain and on horseback to the hall. I'm reading at length, but it's really awesome. When asked why he attended church at the Capitol, Jefferson answered, quote, no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can it be. By the way, I don't know if Jefferson was fully a deist. You're going to understand that way more than me. That's a different conversation. It's interest that the guy that everybody says is like no man. He was a deist. He didn't want Christianity to influence anything. This is Jefferson writing. Nor can it be. This is the really important sentence. The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man. And I, as chief magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it sanction of my example. I read further additionally. While serving as president, Jefferson authored the original plan of education for the public Schools of Washington D.C. as the primary reading text for the students, he selected the Bible and the Watts hymnal. That's Isaac Watts from the First Great Awakening. The Watts hymnal, one of the most influential Christian hymnals in the history of Christendom. I'll read one more paragraph. He was also active in furthering Christianity among the native tribes. In 1803 he signed a federal act. Dude, this blew my mind. Dude. While I was reading this book yelling to Jannah, he signed a federal act related to propagating the gospel among the Delaware Indian tribe and approved a treaty with the Kaskiuska. That's my best guess there tribe to provide them Christian ministry and teaching. In 1804 he signed another federal act related to the propagation of the gospel among the natives on federal land trusts. Here's the linchpin sentence to him. None of the activities discussed violated the First Amendment or the separation of church and state.

[Tim Barton]

Right.

[Josh]

That blows my mind.

[Tim Barton]

Right.

[Josh]

That's the exact opposite of everything I was ever taught for 30 years.

[Tim Barton]

And every everything we said we footnoted to the actual document. Because again, we encourage people like don't take our word. If we would go back and read this. When Jesus said, you will know the truth and the truth will make you free, set you free. You can't be set free by truth. You don't know. And because we have not done research to know the truth, there's so many lies we believe, we don't even know we believe on including the Christian foundation of our nation. By the way, with Jefferson, I would not classify him as a deist at all. But I also wouldn't classify him as a orthodox Christian. Maybe the word. Maybe more like, you know, I don't think you would say a Jordan Peterson or Dennis Prager or. Right. Somebody like we wouldn't say that they're a deist, but they're sure not an orthodox Christian. I think Jefferson's more in that category.

[Josh]

That's a good example. Example, Good analogy.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, he's definitely not one of us what we would believe, but he's not anti us either. He just has a few different ideas on some doctrinal theological positions. But back up, we're told that so many of the founding fathers were these atheist, agnostic and deists. And again, you only can believe that when you don't know who they were. One of the founding fathers was a guy named John Witherspoon. He was a Presbyterian pastor.

[Josh]

Total stud. Total stud.

[Tim Barton]

So you know him from Scotland. He's recruited to come to America because he's a pastor, because he's a revived rivalest preacher in Scotland they need a new president for. At the time it was Prince. Well, now it's Princeton. At the time it was the College of New Jersey. But after we separate from Great Britain and we start printing Bibles in English in America. This is the Bible that he had printed for the state of New Jersey because it was called the family Bible. It was a Bible large enough that families could gather around a dinner table and read it together. But he found out there were people in his state that didn't have their own copy of the Bible. And so he leads the effort in his state. And by the way, the state legislature is the one that approves this and helps get funding for it. So he leads the effort to have Bibles printed in his state. This is a signer of the Declaration. And by the way, he trained more founding fathers personally than any other individual or any other university. What he did at Princeton. So he's one of the most significant leaders of the founding fathers. And that is one of his original Bibles.

[Josh]

Now again, I can hold it.

[Tim Barton]

Well, the one I'm gonna give you next I think is even cooler. But yes. So. Oh, by the way, if you open up, look at the front cover where like normally it tells you what translation and yeah, don't let it flop too much just for the binding. But so normally whose writing is this? That is one of the families that had it that it came down through.

[Josh]

They can at least see the writing.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, you see some cursive on the side. So that's one of the families that owned it. So turn the page where like, normally it would show, like King James. Actually two more looks like. But yeah, turn the page because the blank page. Next page. So right there.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

So what translation of the Bible is it? This is a little bit of a trick question, but I just want you to notice it says.

[Josh]

All it says is translated out of the original tongues. And with a former translation. Okay, now there's a little in pen, diligently compared and revised. It says revifed, but in Old English, the F is an S. And then it says 1611. So is it KJV?

[Tim Barton]

Yes, that was penciled in. That is a King James Version translation. But one of the things that's really funny is when we separate from Great Britain, one of the moves. We didn't have a problem with the King James translation, we had a problem with the politics behind it. And one of the thoughts was King James. It was prideful and arrogant to put your name on the word of God. That wasn't your word, that was God's word. So they reprint the translation, but removed the King's name. And they also said, you know, we just fought a war to get out from under King. There ain't no way we're putting a king's name on our Bible.

[Josh]

Amazing.

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, but that's. That's one of the guys signed the Declaration. Let me give one more. And this again, this is the notion that they weren't really religious, they weren't believers. So there's a guy named Francis Hopkinson. He actually designed the first American flag. He designed a number of government seals. He signed the Declaration. But before he becomes a signer of the Declaration, he is one of the most noted musicians anywhere in America. He invented instruments in America. The dude's a stud. Amazing. Here's what's cool. He was the worship leader at Christ Chapel. He was the organist, he led the choir. This is probably his most famous book he ever did. And you see the title of it.

[Josh]

It says Psalms of David.

[Tim Barton]

It's the Psalms of David. And what the Psalms of David is,

[Josh]

when Was that printed?

[Tim Barton]

1767. So this is before the American Revolution. But he took a Dutch Psalter. So they had. The translation was in Dutch and then they had some musical notations. He took and retranslated it all to English. So it's a book of psalms set to music in English. The most famous thing this guy did is these Collection of psalms. And it's the 150 Psalms set to music. And the reason it matters, right? If you look back and you're like, you know, they weren't religious now. I mean, Chris Tomlin was one of them, right? And like, you go through the list,

[Josh]

shout out Tomlin, right?

[Tim Barton]

You're like, like, well, you have, you know, like Billy Graham was one of them. And like. But they, they didn't really believe in God. You're like, you have to be a. If you know. But I, I think most people are more ignorant than they are intentional and they don't know who these guys are. And so we believe the narrative because we don't recognize the vast majority of the founding fathers were outspoken Christians. It was a very few exceptions, like a Jefferson or Franklin that don't fit that category. But even Franklin, it's hilarious when people

[Josh]

are, dude, you had some stuff in your book, quotes from later in Franklin's life that were really startling. They're explicitly Christian. So I don't know enough about him to know where he ended up. But like, some of those quotes were not things your run of the mill deist would say.

[Tim Barton]

No. And there's a movie, Great Awakening.

[Josh]

I haven't seen it. My parents literally today at Hudson soccer game, my dad's seen it three times, My mom's seen it twice. They were like, josh, you got to see this movie.

[Tim Barton]

It is, it's powerful.

[Josh]

Because when you feel that like George Whitfield, who. For our listeners, George Whitfield was one of the two great preachers of the second great first great awakening. And essentially, to put it in Lake point language, Ben Franklin was like his one more.

[Tim Barton]

Yes.

[Josh]

So he spends his entire life trying to share the gospel of Ben Franklin. And made quite a dent, by the way.

[Tim Barton]

Big time. Which is also worth noting because when people talk about Franklin like being this immoral person, I kind of ask like, which Franklin are you talking about? Because there's the pre Whitefield and post Whitefield. Because everything that people think they know about Franklin, Franklin's first 40 years, very different than his last 40 plus years. And that, that pivot point in the middle was when he introduced was Whitfield.

[Josh]

That's insane.

[Tim Barton]

That's amazing. So it's phenomenal for lots of reasons. But also what's worth noting is people like, well, he's a deist. And I'm like, okay, so let's just. Let me ask a few questions. So how do we know he's a deist? Well, he identified as one. Where did he identify as one, and most people have no idea. And I say, well, it was in his autobiography. And have you read it? Well, no, I've never read it. Okay, so you can get online, look up Frank's autobiography, and you can do a keyword search in, like, an online document for deist. Read the page before and the page after to just gain the context. What he says was, when I was 15 years old, I was reading the debates between these three pastors and this deist. And as I was reading their debates, it struck me that the deist was making better arguments than the pastor. So I determined I would be a deist. And then my friends became deists. But then I saw how my friends began to treat other people, and it wasn't good. And I saw they treated me, and I didn't like it at all. So I determined that even though deism might have some credibility in some of its merits, in practicality, it was of no use to me and of no good to anybody else. So I left that belief behind.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

Now that's in his own autobiography. So, like, by his own admission, he was a deist when he was 15 for, like a week and a half.

[Josh]

Okay, right, okay. I've never heard that before.

[Tim Barton]

That's in his autobiography. Now, again, I'm not arguing that Franklin was a Christian.

[Josh]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Barton]

But I would argue he's not the guy you think he was. And the movie does a really great job of showing Franklin's a guy at the Constitution convention who was like, guys, what are we doing right now? The meeting's not going well and we haven't been praying. He says, remember, we were here 11 years ago because they were in Independence Hall. The same place where they wrote the Declaration was the same place to write the Constitution. And he says, back when we were doing the Declaration, and he's one of only six guys that signed the Declaration and the Constitution. So he's in a room full of people that weren't there, and he says, guys, when we were back here, we used to pray every single day for divine protection. He said our prayers were heard and they were graciously answered.

[Josh]

So already, I think Franklin said this.

[Tim Barton]

Franklin, this is the longest speech he gave during the entire Constitution convention. And by the way, along those lines, like, this is clearly someone who's not a deist, acknowledging that the Founding Fathers used to pray every day for God's help, and God answered their prayers. But let me give another boat to. Back to one of the questions you asked earlier. Is Franklin at The time he is here is also the president of the Pennsylvania Abolition Society because Franklin is one of the guys who actually, he was a founding father that had slaves. He actually freed his slaves. But then he helped found.

[Josh]

I didn't know that.

[Tim Barton]

He helped found the Pennsylvania Abolition Society, then became the president of it. Now why does it matter? Because the other thing is not only were these guys far more religious and Christ centered than we realized, they were also far more anti slavery than we realized.

[Josh]

Okay, let me interject here because. And honestly I don't know what you're going to say to this. So that's one thing I want to talk about. Let's talk about that because here's kind of the vibe, like 1619 Project. Kind of the whole vibe that you kind of get is this kind of the vibe. I kind of picked up sort of this vibe. Hey man, you know, even if they were Christians, they were obviously extreme hypocrites and evil. Really all they did is just weaponize their Christianity for personal gain. Because obviously America's original sin was slavery and racism. It was a uniquely racist country from the founding. It was started by a bunch of men who just wanted to capitalize off the backs of the slave trade. And you know, they just, you know, did this thing just weaponize Christianity to, you know, because they were a bunch of racists and want to have a whole bunch of slaves. So, Tim Barton, what say you?

[Tim Barton]

Yeah, so let me add, first of

[Josh]

all, let me just say. Yeah, actually you go.

[Tim Barton]

So, so acknowledging totally incorrect, but let me add one more to it. So Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat U.S. senator from Virginia, when the, the 1619 Project came out, he actually gave a speech on the Senate floor where he said that America didn't inherit slavery. We like the kind we had, we created that nobody else in the world was doing that we started something brand new.

[Josh]

Okay, let me just say, like I know enough to know that's asinine.

[Tim Barton]

Oh, it's so stupid. Okay, but, but like even so. So first of all, the idea that we created slavery, you have to be ignorant of so much history. So much. But, but he also professes to be a Christian. Now he's a Catholic. But, but all that means is you have more books in your Bible than I do. Right. And so you're someone that says you believe and read your Bible theoretically. And I would point out you can't go anywhere from the beginning of your Bible and not see this. Like not only is, do you have obviously Moses who delivers the Israelites out of slavery. Let's Back up. Joseph. This is more interesting. Joseph was sold by his brothers to who? The Bible says slave traders from Egypt. There was an intercontinental slave trade. And Africa in Genesis. In Genesis.

[Josh]

Genesis, yeah. This is what people need to understand. And by the way, this is explanation, not an excuse.

[Tim Barton]

No.

[Josh]

Yeah, this is explanation, not an excuse that every nation and culture in human history had practiced slavery.

[Tim Barton]

Correct?

[Josh]

Yeah. That does not make it okay.

[Tim Barton]

No. And what I would point out is if you look back historically, if you go to the 1700s, the question I would ask just to frame context, and then let's go back and do some. Some digging on this is can you name any people that had money and power and didn't have slaves in the 1700s? And I say that not unique to America, but because this was the reality of the world. It doesn't matter where you live, what color your skin was or your tribe, your ethnicity. This is the way the world was. There was a great evil in the world at the time, and America absolutely participated in that great evil. There's no doubt about it. But what's worth noting is where was the first political movement organized to end this evil of any nation?

[Josh]

It was England.

[Tim Barton]

It was the founding fathers of America.

[Josh]

Oh, really? They were before Wilberforce.

[Tim Barton]

Way before Wilberforce.

[Josh]

I didn't know that.

[Tim Barton]

Wilberforce was 1833 when England ended slavery. Okay, so go back.

[Josh]

This is now. What do you mean the founding fathers organized against slavery? I thought the opposite, Tim. I was told the opposite was true.

[Tim Barton]

Let's talk about it, Josh.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

So this is the first printing of the original draft of the Declaration of Independence.

[Josh]

Okay, for listeners, if you're not on YouTube right now, you need to go over to YouTube. Just trust me. You're going to want to see what he's about to show you this. Of everything we talk about, this blew my mind more than probably anything else. You keep going.

[Tim Barton]

So this is in Jefferson's own handwriting. When he died, his grandson found the original draft is like, we got to make copies. People ought to see this for themselves. This is one of the first copies from the 1829 when it was first printed. This is from the first draft, and famously, the second paragraph is where he said, we owe these truths to be self evident. All men are created equal and endowed

[Josh]

by the Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[Tim Barton]

Love it. So this is where he lays out the foot of philosophy. The second page is where he starts listing grievances, and most of the grievances Are. That's two lines. That's three lines. That's three lines. That's three lines. That's two lines. Most of the grievances are very short. You come to the third page. The third page again is listing grievances. And this is all the third page. And the fourth page is where he wraps up his political philosophy of the nation. The longest grievance in the entire draft is the last grievance Jefferson actually wrote. He thought this was the most important of all of them. Okay, so like, this is one of those, like fact checks. Go look it up. Jefferson argued this was the most significant. It was a grievance against the slave trade, arguing for the humanity of all that were enslaved.

[Josh]

What?

[Tim Barton]

So let me, let me read just the first couple lines that he's saying.

[Josh]

This is the original draft of the Declaration of Independence, when they're still going through revisions, so before its finalization. That's why if you're on YouTube, you're seeing strikethroughs and essentially red lines.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

Okay, you keep going.

[Tim Barton]

This is his first. This is when he goes and presents before the Congress his draft. This is what he lays on the desk. So the famous painting, the signs of the Declaration, he's laying four pieces of paper. That's what this is. This is the first copy of that. He laid the original down. But on this, the last grievance, on the third page, it says, he, the king has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating his most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, the word infidels underlined. Now let's pause for a second because when he says this is piratical warfare, that's the warfare of pirates. He says it's also the warfare of the non believing pirates. Well, Josh, who are the non believing pirates that are doing this is not Muslims. It's the Barbary pirates of North Africa. Who are the Muslim pirates?

[Josh]

Yeah, and I did know the Muslim, like the, the Muslim slave trade, if I understand it correctly, was like exponentially larger.

[Tim Barton]

They're the ones that started this exportation of the North Atlantic slave trade. When they started the Dutch, the Portuguese, the Spaniards, English, they're like, there's money to be made. We're in. So. So they're the ones that initiate this. And then everybody else jumps on board. So he says this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of an infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. The word Christian, Josh, is not incursive. It is printed.

[Josh]

It's bigger. He clearly wrote it bigger. And it's underlined.

[Tim Barton]

He's drawing your attention to it. Why? He's saying the King of England is doing what the Muslim pirates are doing. And he's saying he's a Christian.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

Okay, wow. Continue, dude. Determined to keep open a market where

[Josh]

men all caps, big letters, dude. We got to make sure they can see this on YouTube. Okay, keep going.

[Tim Barton]

Where men should be bought and sold. Now, the reason also, this is a big deal. This is the third page. He already wrote the second paragraph. We o these truths to be self evident that all men, men are created equal.

[Josh]

But dude, he's calling back, right? Wow.

[Tim Barton]

So. So the argument today is no. The founding fathers, they didn't believe in equality for black people, only white people. Incorrect. Literally, the largest grievance in the declaration is arguing for the equality of all that were enslaved.

[Josh]

So two questions immediately come to my mind. Why didn't that make it in? And if what you just said is true, then why did we have, you know, colonial slave trade for a long time?

[Tim Barton]

Okay, so let me read the next line, which answers the first question. Partly he says we're meant to be bought and sold. He has prostituted his negative force and is the king he's prostituted as a negative for suppressing every legislative attempt. Now, I'm going to stop there, but people can go on and read the rest of it. They said that the king has suppressed every one of our legislative attempts. The colonies had been working for nearly a decade to pass laws against the slave trade and against slavery.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

And the King had vetoed every single one.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Tim Barton]

And so not only are they saying the King is doing something that no Christian should be doing, they said that every time we've tried to stop it, he struck down our loss. Why this matters is background. John Hancock was the President of Congress. When they're doing this, he said they would only include in the final draft what was unanimously agreed to by the body. Because otherwise, he said, if we're disagreed, the King might come and pull us apart by our own local, separate interests. We'll turn against each other. We have to be united. And this is where Franklin is attributed with the famous quip, well, yes, surely we must all hang together or else we will all hang separately. Right. Well, that's where this comes in. So when they're going through it. All of the colonies have to agree on all of this. And there's actually a couple they changed. There's some they added, some they removed. When they got to this one, Jefferson actually said this Grief, Tim. The most. He thought this was the most important part. And they actually removed it. Because there were two colonies that opposed

[Josh]

it was South Carolina and Georgia.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

Yeah. So 11 of 13 wanted it. Wanted to make slavery illegal from the founding of our nation, but two, South Carolina and Georgia opposed it.

[Tim Barton]

Yes.

[Josh]

Okay.

[Tim Barton]

And their answer for it was they said, well, we've never tried to pass laws against it, so the king has never struck down our laws, so we don't think it needs to be included. Wow. Now, wow. What matters to your point is that the vast majority of the founding fathers were in favor of saying, hey, we're done with the slave trade, and we're arguing for the equality of all that are enslaved. But why it also matters is because when we separate From Great Britain, 1776, every one of the northern colonies began passing laws enacting those very things. By 1804, every single northern colony had passed laws for the abolition of slavery. England didn't abolish slavery until 1833.

[Josh]

Yeah, this is fun. Little. Fun Little. By the way, can I keep going for a couple minutes? I know. We good? Yeah. We're going to have to shut her down here in a minute. But this is too good, by the way. This is interesting because first of all, I just want to point something out for listeners. What you just said is the exact opposite of what you get from the vibe of things like 16, 19 project and everything I learned in school where I was like, oh, man, all these guys were obviously virulent racist, and they just wanted to build a nation on the backs of slaves. You're showing me right here. Literally from before the Founding.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

The Founding Fathers were opposing it, by the way, on the basis of their Christian convictions. Correct. And that 11 out of the 13 colonies from the founding of the nation, wanted it to be different.

[Tim Barton]

Correct.

[Josh]

Okay, so I want to point that out. Dang it. There was something else I wanted to point out, and I can't remember what it was. You keep going.

[Tim Barton]

Well, and I'm going to try to tie a bone this real quick. So one of the arguments we have today is, well, but like, Josh, all the founding Fathers, right, they'd say to

[Josh]

Tim, didn't Jefferson have, like, a bastard, by the way, sorry, Illegitimate child with a. That's King James English word. That's a Legitimate usage.

[Tim Barton]

How dare you quote King James language.

[Josh]

Yeah. Legitimate child with a slave.

[Tim Barton]

Okay, so here's what's super interesting, which now we're sidetracking.

[Josh]

I want to say that in that context. That's the appropriate context.

[Tim Barton]

It is totally. So I will say, when I was up in D.C. doing America reads the Bible, I had to read how many asses were present inside the city. And I was like, cool, here we go.

[Josh]

Channel year, eighth grader. Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

I mean. I mean, bro, I was a little bit hard not to laugh for just a second. I got so. Jefferson has long been accused or credited with fathering illegitimate children with his slave, Sally Hemings. There was a guy, I think his name is Professor Robert Turner, who was the head of the history department, I believe is what his title was. But he was at University of Virginia, which is what Jefferson founded. He was there for 30 years. He was considered the Jefferson expert. He's the one that did the DNA study. And his conclusions are absolutely different than the modern narrative. Now, what he discovered is Sally. There were actually, I think, seven children that Sally Hemings had. And it was claimed that all of them were fathered by Jefferson. And so they did a DNA test on the first one. There's no Jefferson DNA in that one. They did a DNA test on another one, and they're like, oh, by the

[Josh]

way, they have Jefferson DNA because we still have, like, locks of his hair. Like, I held a lock of his hair at Beck's place. Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

So, but at the time they did this, there's. There's no Jefferson male descendant. And so Jefferson had an uncle that had male descendants, because to do a proper DNA test, you need it from the male lineage to when they were doing this. And so what, all they could do is a familial match. And they found that. That for one of the children, there was familial match. And then they went to a third one, and the third one wasn't. And then the rest of the, like, descendants were like, we don't want to be tested anymore. Like, we're done.

[Josh]

So, so basically, maybe, maybe not.

[Tim Barton]

Well, so. Correct. But he then went and did the research and said, okay, so there were 27 adult Jefferson males. So not Thomas, but, like, all the Jefferson extended family, there were 27 males that lived in the region at the time that this specific child could have been fathered. And as he goes down the list of where people were in what days, he says, Jefferson is one of the least likely, Thomas is one of the least likely to have fathered this Child.

[Josh]

So it could have been another Jefferson family member.

[Tim Barton]

They actually think it was one of his nephews is the one who's a father.

[Josh]

But.

[Tim Barton]

But big picture. So why do we think that today? Because back in 1998, there was a very, very famous trial where there was a defense attorney who said, guys, we don't need to worry about some famous person having sexual improprieties, because this is normal. Like, historically, Thomas Jefferson even fathered illegitimate children. Now, who said that and why? Well, that was the defense attorney for Bill Clinton during his impeachment trial when they brought up Monica Lewinsky.

[Josh]

Oh, wow.

[Tim Barton]

Wow.

[Josh]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Tim Barton]

And so the defense attorney is like, hey, you can't blame Bill for this. Like, Jefferson did crazy things. Robert Turner, the guy who did this study, he's like, that's not what we said happened. So there were 219 news outlets that carried the story. He goes public and says, you're all wrong. Only 11 news outlets carried the retraction.

[Josh]

Yes. That's how it always works. That's Charles Spurgeon's little quote of a lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its shoes on.

[Tim Barton]

On.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Tim Barton]

So. So it. It's Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson. It's possible, but it's highly unlikely that he did. But where I would back up to. To wrap a bow on this is most people think, well, all the Founding Fathers did. And. And my first question is, like, what about John Adams? And, like, what do you mean? Well, John Adams never had slaves and fighting in slavery his whole life. Okay, what about Sam Adams? Never had slavery, never had slaves fighting in slavery his whole life. What about Roger Sherman? Never had slaves fighting in slavery.

[Josh]

They're all Christian men.

[Tim Barton]

These are all signers of the Declaration, who were outspoken Christians. But. But what most people have no idea is that there were any Founding Fathers that didn't have slaves and fighting in slavery. And there's many of them, but the majority, at some point in their life, did have slaves. But where I would do a deeper dive is nobody actually seems to ask the question, where did they end their life? It's kind of like saying, well, guys, we can't really trust what the Apostle Paul said, because Paul used to kill Christians. And you're like, well, yes, at one point he did. And then God did something in his life. He radically changed. And now we celebrate the testimony of the goodness of God through his life by part of what he did. We're not telling the end of the story. The vast majority of founding fathers that had slaves actually came out against slavery. And you have people like John Jay, who was the original Chief justice of the US Supreme Court, was one of the co authors of the Federalist Papers. There's two really great letters, one of them from 1776, where he writes a friend and he says, you know, it's occurring to me the hypocrisy of our position that we're actually fighting for our own freedom while enslaving others. And we would look and be like, like, well, yeah, bro, it's totally hypocritical, but we're looking through our modern lens, not through the lens of a normalized culture around the world. But. But he's having this epiphany. 1778, he writes another letter where he says, I and many others have discovered the hypocrisy. And so we are. I have freed my slaves and we are leading a movement. He then writes to the Pennsylvania Abolition Society to ask for their founding documents. Cause he says, I'm gonna start one in New York. He became the founder of the New York Abolition Society. The original Chief justice had slaves freed. His slaves founds the first abolitionist society in New York. And Josh, here's the point is that most people have no idea. The vast majority of the Founding Fathers actually came out against the evil of the institution. But because the narrative is being shaped in this propaganda war by this idea from a Marxist perspective, they're all oppressors, therefore cancel everything they ever did. We've lost the reality that although these absolutely were not perfect men, these were men who recognized without God's help, we will never achieve what we're trying to accomplish. And they relied on God's help and a perfect God used incredibly imperfect people and gave us the most free, the most stable, the most prosperous and the most benevolent nation in the history of the world.

[Josh]

That's absolutely unbelievable. Tim Barton. That was one of the most fascinating conversations I've ever had. Dad. Amen. Can I ask you to pray for our listeners that God will use us?

[Tim Barton]

I would love to.

[Josh]

To spread his glory not. Not just in our lives, but in our families, our churches, and our nations. Yeah. Yeah. Would you do that, please?

[Tim Barton]

Yes. God, I'm so grateful that you allow us to come boldly before the throne of grace. God, to. To bring everything on our heart and God wherever we are, whatever's going on, for everybody listening, for everybody watching, God, you know exactly what we need. And actually, Jesus, you told us that we don't have to say the right words to be heard. You know exactly what we need before we speak. But God, we come to you knowing that you hear us and that you meet us where we are. And God, I ask for everybody listening, God, for those that were challenged or convicted, and whatever level that is Holy Spirit, that you would continue to stir and prick hearts. God, that you would open eyes to see, give us ears to hear, hearts to receive what you would impart to us. And God, ultimately, that as we learn lessons, whether we're reading from the Old Testament, Hebrews, the Bible, New Testament, or even for America's founding, recognizing the flaws and imperfections of every one you've ever used, God, may it give us hope that if you have used all of these losers before, these sinful people in need of a savior, God, that we are not disqualified because of our sin, but because of the blood of Christ. We are uniquely called to do something great and significant in your hands for your kingdom. God, use us to make a difference in the culture and world around us. Let us be bolder in standing for truth and God, may we be instruments to shine people to your light and your goodness. In Jesus name. Amen.

[Josh]

Tim. Thank you very much, sir.

[Tim Barton]

An honor. My pleasure.