Amanda Montell, Laurie Kilmartin, and Lizzie No (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank - Episode Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Live Wire with Luke Burbank
• Host: Luke Burbank (PRX)
• Description: Like late-night for radio, Live Wire is hosted by Luke Burbank and artfully blends an eclectic mix of artists, musicians, writers, filmmakers, comedians, and cultural observers.
• Episode: Amanda Montell, Laurie Kilmartin, and Lizzie Ngo (Rebroadcast)
• Release Date: December 6, 2024

---

Introduction and Best News Segment

[00:02 - 04:45]
Luke Burbank opens the episode with enthusiasm, introducing the lineup:

• Amanda Montell: Author of The Age of Magical Overthinking, discussing cognitive biases and modern irrationality.
• Laurie Kilmartin: Comedian sharing personal anecdotes and humor.
• Lizzie Ngo: Singer-songwriter delivering a musical performance and offering travel tips for carrying a harp.

Best News Highlight:
[04:45 - 07:10]
Elena Passarello shares a heartwarming story about a baby Mississippi kite rescued and wrapped in a tortilla by a Texas family. This inventive solution kept the bird warm until it could be safely rehabilitated. Additionally, there's a statewide effort in Texas to help rehabilitate 1,600 injured and orphaned birds affected by Hurricane Beryl. Notable Quote:

• Elena Passarello:

  "The tortilla really worked like it kept the baby bird really warm." [06:18]

---

Amanda Montell: Exploring Cognitive Biases

[11:05 - 26:16]
Amanda Montell delves into her book The Age of Magical Overthinking, discussing how the abundance of information in the digital age paradoxically leads to greater confusion and irrational decision-making. She explains concepts such as the halo effect and proportionality bias, illustrating how these cognitive shortcuts influence our perceptions of celebrities and contribute to phenomena like manifestation beliefs.

Key Discussions:

• Halo Effect:
  Amanda explains how admiring a single trait in a person, like Taylor Swift's music, leads us to assume they possess other unrelated positive qualities.

  "We like a pop star's music. We jump to the conclusion that she must be nurturing, worldly..." [17:19]

• Proportionality Bias:
  She connects this bias to both conspiratorial thinking and positive manifestation beliefs, showing how humans seek grand causes for significant events or desired outcomes.

  "Manifestaion falls into the same category because it's this same idea with a positive spin..." [19:05]

• Dunning-Kruger Effect vs. Overconfidence Bias:
  Amanda discusses how overconfidence bias is more pervasive, affecting everyone's self-assessment regardless of actual expertise.

  "Studies reflect that the majority of participants will rate themselves as above average in things like cooking, driving and sex..." [23:21]

Notable Quote:

• Amanda Montell:

  "There's an egocentricity in this idea that everything is knowable." [24:19]

---

Amanda Montell's Fact-Checking Game

[26:16 - 35:58]
Amanda participates in a fun segment where she distinguishes between facts and fiction. Highlights include:

• Froot Loops Flavor Consistency:

  Confirmed true.
  Amanda: "That's gotta be true." [27:05]

• Napoleon's Height:

  False in the common perception; he was not particularly short for his time and region.
  Amanda: "Maybe not." [28:18]

• Cocaine on Dollar Bills:

  True, based on a 2009 study.
  Amanda: "I would say probably false." (She was initially incorrect but the host corrected her.) [29:18]

• Chickens Living Without Heads:

  True, but only temporarily.
  Amanda: "Temporarily." [29:56]

Humorous Exchange:

• Luke Burbank:

  "If you look around my house, the only books on the shelves that I have reliably actually finished are the ones for Livewire." [33:24]

---

Laurie Kilmartin: Comedy Special Highlights

[37:03 - 44:32]
Laurie Kilmartin delivers her latest comedy special, Cis Woke Grief Slut, featuring sharp humor centered around her experiences as a single mom, dating, and generational stereotypes. Key themes include:

• Body Image and Health Consciousness:

  "It is horrible. You input your height and your weight into a graph, and then it tells you how much you should hate yourself." [37:05]

• Single Motherhood and Dating:

  "When you go away to college next year, I'm going to start dating." [42:46]

• Gen X Men and Concussions:

  "Gen X men are the last generation of American men to play high school sports with no concussion protocols." [42:22]

Notable Quote:

• Laurie Kilmartin:

  "I do have one son. He is 17 years old. And, yeah, it's an exciting time because I kind of feel like my shift is almost over." [38:25]

---

Lizzie Ngo: Musical Performance and Insights

[45:38 - 50:07]
Singer-songwriter Lizzie Ngo performs her song "Deadbeat," showcasing her indie folk style. She discusses her creative process, particularly how undiagnosed PTSD influenced her album Halfsies. Themes of memory fragmentation and healing are prevalent in her work.

Key Discussions:

• Album Title and PTSD:

  "I had undiagnosed PTSD for years... I remember half my life and not, like, distinct parts." [48:27]

• Creative Process During Lockdown:

  "A lot of these songs came out of dreams, you know, waking dreams and Sleepy Dreams." [49:30]

Performance:

• "Deadbeat" Lyrics Highlight:

  "I'm a deadbeat dead ringer for a bad luck man... If I had a nickel for every time I heard the check is in the mail maybe I'll be there, baby, I'll be there." [50:07]

---

Listener Q&A and Conclusion

[32:13 - 36:17]
Luke and Elena discuss listener responses to the question: "What is something you can't admit is true despite all evidence to the contrary?" Notable responses include:

• Sharon:

  "I will never read all of the books in my house." [32:33]

• Casey:

  "Kids these days don't know the song 'Hey Ya'." [33:02]

• Mike:

  "The DVD collection I invested a large portion of my young adult income in is now worthless." [34:30]

Humorous Banter:

• Luke Burbank on DVDs:

  "The only books on the shelves that I have reliably actually finished are the ones for Livewire." [33:24]

• Elena Passarello on VHS Experiences:

  "I had to listen to it full blast. Very embarrassed in front of all of the other library patrons." [35:28]

Upcoming Episode Preview:

• Guests: Writer Dansie Senna and documentary filmmaker Penny Lane.
• Topics: Racial identity in Hollywood and personal journeys in organ donation.
• Musical Guest: Johnny Franco and Dom.

Final Remarks: Luke thanks all guests, sponsors, and supporting members Taylor Bacon and Kathleen Fertey for their contributions, emphasizing the importance of community support in keeping the show ongoing.

Closing Notable Quote:

• Luke Burbank:

  "Each week on Livewire, we like to ask our Livewire listeners a question, talking about confirmation bias and other ways that our brains kind of trick us." [32:14]

---

Conclusion: This rebroadcast episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank offers a rich blend of insightful discussions on cognitive biases with Amanda Montell, laughter-filled storytelling from Laurie Kilmartin, and captivating music from Lizzie Ngo. The episode engages listeners through interactive segments, heartfelt stories, and thought-provoking questions, all while maintaining a lively and personable atmosphere.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week we've got a lot on the brain. You might have a lot on the brain too. Thankfully, our guest, Amanda Montell, author of the book the Age of Magical Overthinking, is an expert on why we tend to think what we think and how a lot of times that can be wrong for some very explainable reasons. Also, we've got some hilarious standup comedy coming your way from Laurie Kilmartin, who is counting the days until her son goes to college so she can start dating again. She's really looking forward to that. She's gonna talk about that. Then we're gonna round things out with some gorgeous music from singer songwriter Lizzy Ngo, who will also tell us the do's and don'ts of schlepping your harp onto the airplane, which could be relevant to your life.

[Amanda Montell]

This week.

[Luke Burbank]

We don't know that is the plan. We have a lot to get to and we're gonna start getting to it right after this. Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in July of 2024. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show. Hey, Elena.

[Elena Passarello]

Hey there, Luke. How's it going?

[Luke Burbank]

It is going great. I'm dog sitting a standard black poodle who I have in the studio with me. And I think the listeners are going to be able to hear a difference because of the enthusiasm I'm going to bring.

[Elena Passarello]

Because you have so much joy to have this amazing dog in your house.

[Luke Burbank]

And also because it's time for us to play station location identification. It's really both of those things. Are you ready? Woof. Woof. Okay, this is where I quiz Elena on Somewhere in the Country. Livewire's on the radio and she's got to guess where I'm talking about. This city was the home of William Buffalo Bill Cody and his famous Wild west show. They had their winter quarters in this place. This is where the performers and animals would rest up and get ready for the next touring season. This was their their off season location.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, now that makes me think it might be somewhere kind of warm and not ranchy.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, that's what I'm surprised to read. Don't let that fool you because I would have figured it'd be in Florida or something, but it's in a place that probably gets pretty cold at the winter still.

[Elena Passarello]

Okay. So is it Cody, Wyoming?

[Luke Burbank]

Ooh, you're. I wouldn't say generally in the kind of in the right part of the world. During World War II, this city was known for its canteen where millions of servicemen and women were served for free food and drinks as they passed through on troop trains.

[Elena Passarello]

Well, I don't know where that is, but it sounds like a wonderful, cool place. It must be on a. On some kind of railroad that goes across the country.

[Luke Burbank]

It's on a Platte, but not the South Platte.

[Elena Passarello]

Is it North Platte, North Dakota?

[Luke Burbank]

North Platte, Nebraska?

[Elena Passarello]

Nebraska. North Platte, Nebraska.

[Luke Burbank]

Fourth time's a charm. That's where we're on the radio on kpne. Shout out to people tuning in from North Platte. All right, should we get to the show?

[Elena Passarello]

Let's do it. Take it away from prx. It's live this week. Author and podcaster Amanda Montell.

[Amanda Montell]

Despite living in this time when seemingly everything is knowable, the world only seems to be making less sense. And we are often trying to Google our way out of pain.

[Elena Passarello]

And comedian Lori Kilmartin.

[Laurie Kilmartin]

And people always go, oh, you never stop being a mom. I'm like, oh, yeah, watch me. Some people would say I never started being a mom. Those people are my son.

[Elena Passarello]

With music from Lizzie Ngo and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire Loop Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much, Elena. Thanks to everyone tuning in all over the country for this week's episode of Livewire. We have a great show in store for you. And of course, we have asked the listeners a question, as we like to do each week. The question is, what is something you can't admit is true despite all evidence to the contrary? I don't care how fact based you think you are. We've all got these, I don't know, hobby horses, these hills that we persist with for some reason, these bugbears. There's a lot of evidence of the contrary. We're going to hear your responses to that question coming up in a minute. First, though, it's time for the best news we heard all week.

[Lizzie Ngo]

Best news.

[Luke Burbank]

This is our little reminder at the top of the show that there is some good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news you heard all week?

[Elena Passarello]

Texas news. Okay, Texas in July news. Where it's hot and sizzling, and all you want to do is eat breakfast tacos.

[Luke Burbank]

Sure.

[Elena Passarello]

This actually takes place outside of Amarillo. A couple of weeks ago, the Wild West Wildlife Rehab center got a phone call. And the rescuer who was on call at the time was named Christie. And the person on the phone told Christie something that they probably hear a lot of. We found a baby bird. It looks like it was really recently hatched. There's no mama anywhere. Maybe it's an owl. Question mark. And so Christy went through the regular protocol. Can you find a box or something that you can put it in to keep it warm and safe? And that's where things got a little interesting, because the woman that Christy was talking to on the phone said, oh, well, we've already put it in a warm tortilla. Because it turns out this family was swimming and cooking out, and they were using the grill. And when they found this baby bird, the human mom got worried that the baby bird was maybe getting too cold. She ordered the grill master to just, you know, put a tortilla on the grill and warm it up. And then that's what they wrapped the baby bird in. And Christy was like, okay. And so she sent a dispatch rescue person out right away. And guess what, Luke?

[Luke Burbank]

What?

[Elena Passarello]

The tortilla really worked like it kept.

[Amanda Montell]

The baby bird really warm.

[Elena Passarello]

It made it back, and now you can do it. Turns out that it's not an owl. It's a baby Mississippi kite. And it's got this cute little beak. It's white and fluffy. And it's at the rehab center now. And you can donate to its care.

[Luke Burbank]

Aw.

[Elena Passarello]

And you also can donate, and this is kind of worth noting, there's kind of a Texas wide effort right now to help and rehabilitate the 1600 injured and orphaned birds that were either injured or orphaned as a part after Hurricane Beryl. So go ahead and look up this amazing story at the Wild West Wildlife Rehab center in Amarillo. And there's also a lot of links so that you can donate to the medicine, the doctor's appointments, the food, and the supplies of birds that didn't get a chance to get wrapped in a tortilla.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, that's a great story. Now, from an animal being wrapped in a food product to an animal who may have turned a Rolex watch into a food product.

[Elena Passarello]

Uh oh.

[Luke Burbank]

It's the story of James Steele, who is a 95 year old guy living in England, out on his family's farm. And back in the 1950s, when he was just starting out in life. He was in his early 20s. He saved up a bunch of money from working at his dairy farm. He saved about 100 British pounds, which was a lot of money then to buy a Rolex watch. It was a silver Air King Rolex. And he. This thing was the pride and joy of James Steele As a 20 year old British dairy farmer. He would go around and show it to everyone. He was showing it off so much that at some point it broke and it fell into a field that he was riding his tractor on. And he went back looking for it and could never find it. And you know, if you've ever lost anything really valuable like that, you know you're just going to move heaven and earth. They could not find this watch and they figured, oh, a cow probably ate it at some point is probably what happened. Like it's in the stomach of a cow. And we know Elena, they have a lot of stomachs.

[Elena Passarello]

So yes, yes, I think something like 600 of them.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, just kiss that watch goodbye. And that's what James Steele did for the next 50. What is math? The next 75 years. You know, that was how the story could have ended. But then 75 years go by and James Steele's son thinks, why don't we get a metal detector person out here to see what they can find? And so they get this guy named Liam King out there with his metal detector and they're not even looking for the watch, they're looking for other like Roman coins and artifacts. This farm has been in the family and in the world for so long that it's the kind of place that if you go around with a metal detector, you're just going to find some very old stuff potentially. And sure enough, what do they find? They find this Rolex watch, this Air King Rolex watch from 1950 that James had been mourning for like 75 years.

[Elena Passarello]

And James is still alive. He's 95 years old and he's getting his watch back.

[Luke Burbank]

And he refuses to part with the watch because he is worried about losing it again. He is apparently just wearing it or carrying it all the time. Side note, it doesn't work. Currently he doesn't care. Like some people on the Internet. This has become a big story. I guess in like the vintage watch community, people are offering to try to repair it or whatever. I don't think he's ever letting it out of his sight again.

[Elena Passarello]

He's like, Listen man, I'm 95, I want every second with this watch. Even if the watch itself can't track Those seconds.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Exactly. And also, just for the record, it is still up in the air if this watch passed through a cow or not. Like, that's. That's a. That'll be a mystery for the ages, because there's no way to know, but the watch is back in James possession. So that's the best news that I heard all week.

[Laurie Kilmartin]

Best news.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, let's welcome our first guest on over to the program. Her debut book, Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, was a sensation and launched her on a path that we can only guess will eventually lead to complete media domination, because she's also the co host of the podcast Sounds Like a Culture, which is super popular. And Booklist calls her newest book the Age of Magical Overthinking. Refreshingly entertaining and informative. Take a listen to Amanda Montell. We recorded this at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon.

[Unknown]

Hello, Amanda.

[Amanda Montell]

Hello there.

[Unknown]

Welcome to the show. Thank.

[Amanda Montell]

Thank you very much.

[Unknown]

You start this book by writing, the machine is malfunctioning, and we're trying to think our way out of it. What's the machine?

[Amanda Montell]

The machine is a few things. And, I mean, that sentence was a bit symbolic, but I was trying to make the point that we're living in the information age. We have access to an unprecedented glut of information, of data, true and false, at our fingertips every single day. And that can create the impression that everything is knowable. And yet, despite living in this time when seemingly everything is knowable, the world only seems to be making less sense. And we are often trying to Google our way out of pain, consume our way out of pain, click on Instagram ads to resolve issues that really are often resolved in much simpler, more embodied ways. And so, yeah, I am a textbook overthinker, thought spiraler. And so much of this book was inspired by that very quandary of, like, why, when living in this time when information has been democratized, does behavior seem to be more senseless than ever?

[Unknown]

I can directly track my emotional health to how much stuff I'm buying on Instagram.

[Elena Passarello]

Yep.

[Unknown]

And the problem is when I recently set up the. Whatever shop thing, it's been sending it to my girlfriend's house. So she's just getting massive shipments of my emotional unwellness. It's like you have a bunch of seeds coming from something called seed sheet, because now I'm a gardener, apparently.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Another thing that you say early on in this book that was kind of news to me was you write that our minds are resource rational. Meaning what versus like rational. Rational, yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

Meaning that we are making decisions the best ways that we can considering our limited time, our limited cognitive resources. We don't make decisions the way that a computer does. We are so governed by impulses and emotions and these cognitive biases which are the, which is the theme of this book. I dedicate every chapter to a different cognitive bias, a sort of psychological shortcut that we developed naturally in order to make sense of the world enough to survive it. But these decision making shortcuts are now clashing with the culture that we've created to produce a great deal of existential turmoil without our really noticing that that's what's happening.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's really fascinating in the book the way that you take these flawed ways of thinking that we're applying and then you sort of give examples of that. I want to talk about Taylor Swift. I want to talk about the world's worst bank robber. I'm going to talk about a weird Instagram doctor. All in a moment though. First we've got to take a very short break. Here on Livewire from prx, we're talking to Amanda Montel. The new book is the Age of Magical Overthinking. Notes on Modern Irrationality. More Livewire in just a moment. Stay with us.

[Luke Burbank]

Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers, and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their website and grab a [e-mail].

[Unknown]

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[Luke Burbank]

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[Unknown]

Welcome back to Livewire from PRX. We're at the Alberta Rose Theater here in Portland, Oregon. We are talking to Amanda Montell, the writer and podcaster, about her new book the Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality. Let's talk about the halo effect and Taylor Swift, who some in the listening audience may have heard of. How does, how does the halo effect apply to somebody like Taylor Swift?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, so the halo effect is the first cognitive bias that I cover in the book, and it is responsible for so many of the cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement that we're seeing in society right now. The halo effect describes our tendency to admire one quality in a person and then jump to the conclusion that they must be perfect overall. So we like a pop star's music. We jump to the conclusion that she must be nurturing, worldly, maybe that she cares about us as much as we care about her. Maybe that she aligns politically with our values, even though there's little evidence to suggest that's true. Or perhaps we enjoy an influencer's sense of style. We might jump to the conclusion that they're educated or as updated on current events as they are on style trends. And we make these conclusion jumps to find role models. It's a deeply ingrained decision making strategy that has been within us since a time in human history when you would be in a small community and you would clock someone with big muscles or intact teeth, and you would. Or any teeth, or any teeth at all. But we would jump to the conclusion that perhaps they were a skilled fighter who had avoided disfigurement from battle, or that they were a strong hunter and thus a good person to align with for survival purposes, but were now mapping that halo effect onto these modern parasocial relationships with celebrities that have little to do with survival. And those dynamics are proving increasingly negative for both the celebrities and the Stans who worship them.

[Unknown]

Right. We're talking to Amanda Montell about her new book, the Age of Magical Overthinking, here on Livewire this week. What is proportionality bias and how does it apply to someone called the manifestation? Dr.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes, proportionality bias is our. I always feel like I'm doing a cop quiz. I'm like, I, and you, like, flip the flashcard and you're like, good job.

[Unknown]

Channel your inner Tracy flick. Go for it.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes, proportionality bias is our penchant to believe that big events or even just big feelings must have had a big cause. And this is the bias that powers so much conspiratorial thinking. But in this chapter, I argue that ideas of manifestation are their own kind of conspiracy theory, in a sense, because they are a similar misattribution of cause and effect with a positive. So the way that proportionality bias might show up in a conspiracy theory is the idea that, you know, a pandemic strikes, this unbelievably overwhelming global tragedy that couldn't have been the result of a bunch of small random misfortunes. Surely a government engineered it on purpose. That's the only way it makes proportional sense to us. Or, you know, Princess Diana's death, what incredibly enormous calamity that could not have been just a freak accident. The British government must have killed her. You know, we jump to these conclusions, conclusions because we want to infuse some kind of cosmic logic into events that otherwise don't make sense. And I argue that manifestation falls into the same category because it's this same idea with a positive spin that if only you vision board your little heart out or bathe your crystals just right, or practice the law of attraction just so then you will yield wealth and romance and success, whatever that means to you. And that can be quite positive. I mean, there's evidence to suggest that your attitude and your mindset can affect outcomes. But I noticed that during COVID lockdown, there were so many manifestation guru types who would arrive on people's for your pages saying things like, hey, star breather.

[Luke Burbank]

Whoa.

[Amanda Montell]

What if you.

[Luke Burbank]

Star breather.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, I'm seeing like, you know, that's.

[Unknown]

Definitely a David Bowie song. Yeah, it should have been.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes, it should have been, you know, a white woman in palazzo pants with a bindi being like, if you sign up for my $25 a month bespoke manifestation course, then surely you will be able to prevent Covid or, you know, bring on all of these positive things to your life. And that sort of dogmatic, capitalistic application to manifestation emerged in a big way during COVID lockdown and in the worst of cases, sent many down a conspiratorial rabbit hole because their proportionality bias, which is so deeply ingrained, set them up to do so.

[Unknown]

Two words, MacArthur Wheeler.

[Amanda Montell]

I am so glad you're asking me about this man. He is not famous enough. MacArthur Wheeler was this very silly bank robber who got the idea that if he put lemon juice all over his face, it would obscure his features to security cameras because he heard that lemon juice can work as invisible ink, which it does.

[Unknown]

If anybody was like, in the Cub Scouts, we did a lot of like, with the lemon juice.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes, you should try robbing a bank. Yeah. So he indeed went and tried to steal some money from two Pittsburgh banks, and he was caught rather quickly. And he landed in an almanac for being so, so silly in his criminal activity. And that caught the attention of a social scientist named David Dunning, who wrote a study that then blew up in sort of cultural commentary. He coined this phenomenon called the Dunning Kruger effect, which many interpreted as this idea that the people with the least amount of expertise on a subject are most likely to overvalue their knowledge. And this phenomenon, it's called a murmur.

[Unknown]

Of anecdotal experience, like if anyone's been home for the holidays, like, that checks out. The person who knows the least is the most confident in their opinion.

[Amanda Montell]

But I'm going to rain on your parade because we all get very smug when the Dunning Kruger effect is brought up. We're like, surely if I know what it is, it can't apply to me. But as soon as I began looking into the Dunning Kruger effect, I found an interview that David Dunning did with McGill University 20 years after the original publication of his study, where he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Actually, we all overvalue our existence. Actual, you know, scholars might do so over a narrower range, but what's really going on is this phenomenon called overconfidence bias, which shamefully applies to almost all of us. Studies reflect that the majority of participants will rate themselves as above average in things like cooking, driving and sex, even.

[Unknown]

Though, okay, but what if you really.

[Amanda Montell]

Are well, will need a follow up.

[Unknown]

And have never had any. And have never had any complaints.

[Amanda Montell]

About.

[Unknown]

Your cooking about any of it? Oh, okay, no, that was a. Like that really made my blood run cold when I read that part of the book where it's like, it can't be more than 50%. Yeah, we can't all be better than average at these things.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes, but no one wants to do that controlled experiment, do we? It's like, you try now. You try anywho, science. But yeah. So I went into that chapter hoping that I would get to feel very supercilious. And instead it was an invitation, like all of these chapters, to humble myself. I thought, like, I can't be overconfident. I'm a reasonable person. But as it turns out, it all comes back to this incredible amount of self focus that is prevalent in the social media age especially. And there's an egocentricity in this idea that everything is knowable. You know, sometimes people will ask me questions like, you know, what is the excuse? The best fact checker you have is right between your ears. And that's not the case. You know, like multiple people can read the same article and see different things. A disheartening study that I cite in this book is this piece of information that science literacy does not actually make us better at discerning real facts. It just makes us better at using science to defend our existing beliefs, which is sad. But at the same time, while we're not very good at convincing other people to change their minds, we're pretty good at changing our own minds. And so I wrote this book again, going in hoping to feel smug about my own decision making, in the end feeling really humbled and in the end really feeling like all I want to do is create more skepticism of my own irrationalities and compassion toward other people's.

[Unknown]

This is Livewire radio from prx. We're talking to the writer and podcast host Amanda Montel about her new book, the Age of Magical Notes on Irrationality. Now, Amanda, I'm so appreciative that you've spent so much time kind of sifting through things that are both true and not true, because I think you're going to be the perfect person to help us out with this little exercise we want to do. Of course, your book tackles the topic of cognitive bias and some of the reasons why we humans believe things that turn out to be false. And what we were wondering is if you could help us try to separate fact from fiction.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, God.

[Unknown]

Widely spread facts. And by the way, I'm doing that in air quotes for people listening on the radio right now. Facts. Here's what we're going to do. We call this little game Check, please. I'm going to tell you a widely spread fact, and you have to tell us if you think that it's true or not.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, dear God. Okay.

[Unknown]

All right. We're going to start off pretty easy. Froot Loops are the same flavor regardless of the color of the Froot Loop.

[Amanda Montell]

That's gotta be true.

[Unknown]

That's absolutely true. Yeah, it comes in red, orange, yellow, green, purple, and sometimes a blue hoops, depending on which country you're buying them in. And they all taste exactly the same. And also, I didn't realize this until I was looking at this little quiz.

[Luke Burbank]

It is spelled F, R, O, O, T Fruit.

[Amanda Montell]

I love that.

[Unknown]

I just never took the time to even look at how they were spelling it.

[Amanda Montell]

It'd be funny if they spelled loops L, U, I, P, S.

[Unknown]

We can neither call these fruit or loops legally. Okay, this is a good one. True or false. Napoleon was short.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, define short. Because as a 5:1 person, I think everyone is tall.

[Unknown]

Well, in the way that we, you know, I think in the pop sort of idea, he was not very tall. And that's why sometimes they'll talk about shorter people, particularly shorter men, having a quote unquote Napoleon complex. There's a lot around this idea that he was not a super tall person.

[Amanda Montell]

Maybe not.

[Unknown]

You're exactly right. He was actually not that short compared to other French men of the time. And here's an interesting thing. He was 5 foot 2 in the French way of measuring height. I didn't know there were different ways of doing this. There was, but in the sort of English way of measuring things, the way we think of it, he was 5 7, which was taller than the average Frenchman at the time.

[Amanda Montell]

I feel like this is a perfect example of lore rather than misinformation. Like, this is a cultural story that we tell ourselves as a framework to understand archetypes, personalities. And I think it's okay. I think it's appropriate to continue believing this myth.

[Unknown]

Okay, what about this? I love that this is something that may be true or maybe false, but it's something people have wondered for years. Is it true that 90% of dollar bills have trace amounts of cocaine on them? Everybody was wondering when they came to the theater.

[Amanda Montell]

I would say probably false.

[Unknown]

It's absolutely true. At least as of a 2009 study. Apparently, they can get contaminated by people using them to snort cocaine. But also currency counting machines at the bank can pass a lot of cocaine between the various denominations.

[Elena Passarello]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

Sharing is caring.

[Unknown]

Yeah, right. Tell your probation officer it was the machine.

[Laurie Kilmartin]

It was the machine, the bank.

[Unknown]

Okay, how about this? A chicken can live with its head cut off. Can a chicken live with its head cut off?

[Amanda Montell]

Temporarily.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's true.

[Luke Burbank]

You're right.

[Unknown]

Ish. Chicken brains are concentrated in the back of the skull, and so chickens live a few seconds after their heads are cut off, and sometimes maybe even a few minutes. But in 1945, a US bird dubbed Miracle Mike, the headless chicken, famously lived 18 months after its head was removed.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, there's a commemorative statue to Mike in Fruta, Colorado.

[Unknown]

I want to be clear.

[Elena Passarello]

Made out of ax blades.

[Luke Burbank]

I want to be clear.

[Unknown]

Elena has not seen the script.

[Elena Passarello]

No, no. I'm just a Mike hat.

[Unknown]

She just knew that off the top of her head.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. Do you want to know how he ended up dying? Do you have it written Cocaine?

[Laurie Kilmartin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elena Passarello]

So it's just a regular farmer in Colorado cut at an angle that spared the brain stem so that Mike could stay alive. And they fed him with an eyedropper and started driving him around to attraction. To attraction. To attraction. And one day, they left the eyedropper back at the other hotel and he died. After 18 months. He was in Time magazine. He was like a superstar.

[Unknown]

In related news, Trump has found his vice presidential candidate. That's probably a good place to wrap it up. Amanda Montale. It's the Age of Magical Everything. Thanks for coming on Livewire.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Amanda Montel right here on Livewire. Be sure to check out her latest book, the Age of Magical Overthinking. Hey, special thanks this episode to Taylor Bacon of Portland, Oregon, and Kathleen Fertey of Beaverton, Oregon. Taylor and Kathleen are part of the Livewire member community and are generously supporting us with a donation each month. And we are so thankful for that support because it really is how we're able to do this show week in and week out. So a big shout out and thanks to Taylor and Kathleen for keeping Livewire going.

[Unknown]

Of course.

[Luke Burbank]

Each week on Livewire, we like to ask our Livewire listeners question, talking about confirmation bias and other ways that our brains kind of trick us with. Amanda Montel had us wondering, what is something you can't admit is true despite all evidence to the contrary? Elena has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?

[Elena Passarello]

Ah, here's one from Sharon that really hits home. The truth that Sharon will never admit is true is that quote, I will never read all of the books in my house. Ooh, doggy, that's me. Sometimes I don't. I mean, I don't want anything to happen to, like, the grid or whatever. But occasionally I think about, like, you know, are you prepared for the apocalypse? And I'm like, well, at least I'll be able to get some of these books read.

[Luke Burbank]

But you've gotta be careful that you know where your eyeglasses are, because we learned anything from that Twilight Zone episode.

[Elena Passarello]

That's right. And then you won't have your eyeglasses.

[Luke Burbank]

He breaks his eyeglasses even though he has found himself in the position where he has nothing but time to read all of his books. Yeah, if you look around my house, the only books on the shelves that I have reliably actually finished are the ones for Livewire.

[Elena Passarello]

Well, hey, I mean, I think that's a testament to you as a radio host, because as an author, I think I talked to many people in interviews who had not finished my books.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, I can tell you that none of the other books, the recreational reading, I haven't finished any of those. What's another truth that one of our listeners just can't seem to admit is in fact the case?

[Elena Passarello]

Casey? Can't seem to admit that kids these days don't know the song. Hey Ya. The reason for that, Luke, is because that song is 21 years old. It can vote, it can drink, it can almost rent a car. Hey, yeah. Also, do kids these days know what a Polaroid picture is and why you should shake it like one?

[Luke Burbank]

I don't. I don't even know. But, I mean, I feel like the news has been coming fast and furious of things turning like 20, that if you woke me up in the middle of the night and asked me, I would tell you, hey, yeah, it came out four years ago.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, yeah. I think it was on my 40th birthday. I think it came out. But no.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, one more thing that is true, but our listeners have a hard time recognizing that.

[Elena Passarello]

Mike. Can't admit that it's true. That, quote, the DVD collection I invested a large portion of my young adult income in is now worthless. Sorry, Mike.

[Luke Burbank]

I would listen as a person who's firmly in middle age. I would push back on that. I bought a DVD Blu Ray player like a year ago.

[Elena Passarello]

You did?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes, because I wanted to watch a particular documentary film that I could only find on dvd. And I did watch it. I plugged in the DVD player. I put the DVD in. First of all, it has that menu which is like such a blast from the past. And I watched the documentary. It's called Streetwise. It's actually about Seattle in the 1980s.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, cool.

[Luke Burbank]

And I was Riveted. And there was something about the kind of physical nature of watching it on this DVD that added to my experience. So I would say, let's not write the DVD off quite so quickly.

[Elena Passarello]

That's a lot better than the other day. I, for my Elvis book, had to watch a VHS of an Elvis impersonator competition. I couldn't find anyone in my life who had a VHS player. I went to the public library. They had one VHS player, and I went to put my headphone in the headphone jack. And it didn't work because headphones were different back then. So I had to listen to it full blast. Very embarrassed in front of all of the other library patrons.

[Luke Burbank]

In the little media area where you were like, in that little Formica booth.

[Elena Passarello]

Correct. Yep.

[Luke Burbank]

That was where I would go and watch all of the things that my parents wouldn't let me watch when I was a kid at home. Like, they had a VHS tape of all of the collected music videos of Wham at the Greenwood Public Library in Seattle. And I would sit there on summer afternoons watching the video for Club Tropicana, for Careless Whisper, for the whole thing.

[Elena Passarello]

Careless Whisperer video was literally Stevie.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. That's why you needed to be in that little alcove. All right, thank you to everyone who sent in a response to our listener question. We've got another one for next week's show coming up in just a moment. In the meantime, our next guest is a comedian and New York Times bestselling author who's written for Conan and also the White House Correspondents Dinner, among many other gigs. She's performed on pretty much every late night TV show. And now she's got a new one hour comedy special coming out, and it is titled, and I'm just reading what is on this script here. Cis Woke Grief Slut. It's the name of the new special by Laurie Kilmartin, who joined us on stage at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon.

[Lizzie Ngo]

Yeah.

[Laurie Kilmartin]

Let's hear for the band, guys. Yes. Right on. I do. I do. I'm very, you know, health conscious. I did my bmi. Has anyone done the body mass index test? Yeah, Boo is right. It's horrible. You input your height and your weight into a graph, and then the number tells you how much you should hate yourself. My number is 27, and that puts me in the overweight category. Right. So I started thinking, well, maybe I should try Ozempic. Okay? Because I've never been skinny and I've never had chronic diarrhea. And I could have Them both with one shot. But then I remembered my ancestors came here from Ireland, fleeing the famine. And I stand before you, five generations later, a solid size 14. Thank you. Thank you. 12 at Old Navy. Guys, am I overweight, or am I a gosh darn American hero? You guys are, like, a little of both. I do have a child. I have one son. He is 17 years old. And, yeah, it's an exciting time because I kind of feel like my shift is almost over. And people always go, oh, you never stop being a mom. I'm like, oh, yeah, Watch me. Some people would say, I never started being a mom. Those people are my son. But I was at the doctor's recently, and I have, like, a health condition. And the doctor goes, this could be genetic. So make sure your son gets an MRI when he's 40. Like, I don't think I'm going to be alive when he's 40. I hope not. It's going to be pretty hot. I don't want to be 81 in 200 degrees. I just don't. So what I did is I set up a Gmail. I scheduled it to go to my son in the year 2046 to remind him. And then I was like, why stop there? So when he's 50, he's going to get an email about a shingles vaccine. And then in 2096, just a short note from me. See you soon. Yeah. Yep. My son is Hispanic, and ever since January 6th, he's been making fun of me for being white. Like, if I get mad, I'd be like, oh, mom, you're going to storm the Capitol because I didn't empty the dishwasher. And I'll be like, no, I'm gonna call the cops. I like to outsource my racism to city workers. Oh, that was on the edge. All right, guys, it's gonna be. It's gonna be a rocky six more minutes. No, we've always been like this. When he was little, he gave me the little kid. Classic. He goes, I didn't ask to be born. And I'm like, yeah, and if you had, I would have said no. By the way, your dad and I were using a condom that night. So not only did you not ask, you bypass security? I don't know. Are there parents and kids that were. That were home during lockdown, like, missed out on school? Clap if you have. You had those? Yeah. Yeah. Those kids are real weird now, and they're starting to roll out. Heads up, everybody else. I am a single mom. Are there single moms Here. Yeah. All right. I'm glad they seated you apart so you couldn't talk in connive. That's good. I told my son, I go, listen, when you go away to college next year, I'm going to start dating. So, you know, heads up, there's going to be some awkward Thanksgivings in your future. And then recently, my son goes, I don't know if I want to go to college. And I was like, oh, just a reminder, I will be having sex with men in your bedroom and all over the house, honestly. And if you don't want to see that, you should live in a dorm and it should be out of state because I'm going to be loud. Okay? I will pay the extra tuition. Get out. And here's the thing. I want to date. I want to date guys my age. I've dated younger once, and I'll never do it again because I was in my 40s and I dated a guy who was 25. Very quickly, one night, one night of a date, and it was the greatest night of my life and the worst night of his. Like, we were both texting our friends the next day for different reasons. Like, I was like, I hooked up with a 25 year old, right? And he was like, she had a C section. I saw the scar.

[Luke Burbank]

Pick me up.

[Laurie Kilmartin]

I do want to date a guy my age. I'm in my 50s and I've been feeling it out on the apps. And divorced men in their 50s are not well. Sorry, something is amiss with this cohort. And here's my theory. Gen X men are the last generation of American men to play high school sports with no concussion protocols. All right? No helmets, no flashlights in the pupils. All right? Just hit in the head. Called a gay slur. Sent back out on the field. And now they're all grown up and they're on the loose, these horny, brain damaged, man sized, shaking babies. Dming in all caps. Do you know Joe Rogan? No. See a neurologist. Listen, I'll tell you, though, I am a terrible girlfriend. I am. Because I'm a standup comic. If I'm dating you, I will make jokes about your junk on stage. It's my art. And if you ask me not to, I'll add that to the joke. I make men sign a total disclosure agreement, and if they don't, I say you get the heck out of my son's bedroom. This is a sacred space. All right, you guys have been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Laurie Kilmartin right here on Livewire. Her latest comedy special, Cis Woke Grief Slut is available now. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we are going to hear some really lovely music from singer songwriter Lizzie Ngo. So stay with us. This is Livewire. Livewire is sponsored by Secret Aardvark hot sauce, celebrating 20 years of awesome sauce plus a whole line of hot sauces and marinades, from their classic aardvark habanero hot sauce to their fiery reaper smoked and red scorpion. There's a sauce for every heat lover. Stay connected by following Secret Aardvark on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok for recipes, hot sauce fun and more.

[Unknown]

Welcome back to Livewire.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm your host Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. Before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of next week's episode. We are going to be talking to the writer Dansie Senna. This is part of the Portland Book Festival. Dansie has a new kind of dark comic novel out. It's called Colored Television. It's really incredible. It sort of tackles the racial identity industrial complex known as Hollywood. Then we will have a chat with the documentary filmmaker Penny Lane, whose latest film, Confessions of a Good Samaritan follows her journey to donate one of her kidneys to a total stranger. Just something that she did and documented. Then we're going to hear some delightful music from one of my new favorite musical duos, Johnny Franco and his real brother, Dom.

[Unknown]

They really are brothers.

[Luke Burbank]

They came to Portland by way of Sao Paulo, Brazil, and then made it to the Livewire stage. You are not going to want to miss it. That's all next week on Livewire. This is LIVEWIRE from prx. Our musical guest this week burst onto the indie folk scene with their 2017 debut, Hard One. And since then, they've been busy touring the country, including stops at the Newport Folk Festival, Hardly Strictly Bluegrass and South by Southwest. They played with Iron and Wine, Sun Little and Adea Victoria. And Rolling Stone calls their latest album Halfsies a daring leap forward that's bound to make new fans, and we are delighted to say we are among those new fans. Lizzie Ngo joined us at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon.

[Unknown]

Check this out.

[H]

Well, hi.

[Unknown]

Hi, Lizzie. I have been enjoying this album, Halvesy so much this week in preparation for having you on the show.

[H]

Thanks for listening.

[Unknown]

We have to address the harp in the room because folks are listening on the Radio. They may not be able to see, but you are holding a very, very sizable harp, which actually looks pretty heavy, too.

[H]

It gets heavier every day.

[Elena Passarello]

Right. It's not like a floor harp, like we sometimes see, that's resting on the floor. You're actually holding this up with your right arm, and then it's strapped around your left shoulder.

[H]

What it's resting on, I recently learned at the chiropractor, is a couple of vertebrae in the lower back.

[Unknown]

What is it like traveling with that thing?

[H]

I feel like a child who has to bring a special lunch to the field trip, and I'm very embarrassed. Like, can we please bring this on the plane? I know, it's awful. It's huge. It's going to take up the space of three suitcases, and I really need it.

[Unknown]

Please let me on the title of the album, Halvsies. Where does that come from?

[H]

Okay. I had undiagnosed PTSD for years, and if you have that experience as well, you'll know that sometimes you'll be in the middle of a very vivid memory, and then there's just nothing. And for years, I was like, I just don't have a great memory. I remember half my life and not, like, distinct parts. Right. It's not like I know this story and not that one. It's like, I know 50% of that little memory, 50% of that one. And we put it together.

[Elena Passarello]

So that's the havesies. It's half. Half of a memory.

[H]

And then trying to put it together and get free. That's the goal.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Like, was that realization something that helped you then figure out a path out of that?

[H]

100%. And it helped me title the album because I had made the album before I got this diagnosis, and I was like, I feel like I'm getting towards something in all of these songs, some little gap in my mind. And then I found out, and it started to click.

[Unknown]

I'm curious how the songs came together on the record. Did you. Were you trying to create a record, or did you realize, oh, I've got a bunch of songs?

[Luke Burbank]

Like, how.

[Unknown]

What was the creation of it?

[H]

Like, a lot of it happened in 2020 when I was locked in my house. A lot of you might have also been at home, spending a lot of time at home.

[Unknown]

I was here doing the show for.

[H]

The record, so I weirdly had a lot of time to sit and think and look at birds and think about flying and have insomnia. And so a lot of these songs came out of dreams, you know, waking dreams and Sleepy Dreams.

[Unknown]

All right, well, let's hear one of those songs. What are we going to hear?

[H]

We're going to hear Deadbeat.

[Unknown]

All right. This is Lizzie Ngo on Livewire.

[Lizzie Ngo]

I'm a deadbeat dead ringer for bad luck man oh, I'm dead set I'm doing better than my daddy ever did I'm wrong turn, sinking feeling I'm a backup plan You're a damn fool true believer you take me as I am. If I had a nickel for every time I heard the check is in the mail maybe I'll be there, baby, I'll be there. I'd have enough money to treat you like I should. But I wouldn't do that we both know I'm bad at showing how I care I'm a deadbeat dead ringer for a bad luck man or I'm dead set I'm doing better than my daddy ever did. I'm a wrong turn sinking feeling I'm a backup plan You're a damn fool true believer you take me as I am. Must have hit the lotto waking up next to you and you ask me how I slept Bring me coffee in bed coffee in bed and I've got a lousy record but what else can I do? Then hold you while I can. Get up and do my best get up and do my best best. It's in my bones it's hard to settle down it's in your face the way you look at me sometimes I could promise that one day I'll come around but it's in my blood it's in my blood I'm good at telling lies I'm a dead being dead for a bad luck man. Oh, I'm dead set I'm doing better than my daddy ever did I'm wrong turn, sink and feel and I'm a backup plan you're damn fool a true believer you take me as I am. Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Lizzie Ngo right here on Livewire. Be sure to check out her latest album, Halvesies, which is out now. That is going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Amanda Montel, Lori Kilmartin and Lizzie Ngo.

[Elena Passarello]

Lara Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Michelle is our executive director. And our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Leona Kinderman and Eben Hoffer are our technical directors. And our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake. Trey Hester is our assistant editor, and Becky Phillips is our intern. Our house band is Sam Tucker, Ethan Fox, Tucker Alves. And A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.

[Luke Burbank]

Additional funding provided by the Marie Lamphram Charitable Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Taylor Bacon of Portland, Oregon and Kathleen Ferte of Beaverton, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire team. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. Wouldn't it be amazing to have a piping hot episode of Livewire delivered right.

[Unknown]

To your heart and ears each week?

[Luke Burbank]

Well, guess what? That can happen when you subscribe to the Livewire podcast feed, and you'll get the joy of surprising conversation every week.

[Unknown]

So go ahead and do it.

[Luke Burbank]

It's super easy.

[Unknown]

You click on the button at the top of your podcast app and bam. You are Livewire subscribed. And if you're still, you know, feeling the love, if you're enjoying the show.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, maybe you could hook us up and leave us a quick review that'll help more people find out about LiveWell Wire. And thank you.

[Unknown]

From PRX.