← Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Atsuko Okatsuka, Jack Balderrama Morley, and Tyler Ballgame
00:52:23
This episode features comedian Atsuko Okatsuka, writer Jack Balderrama Morley, and music from Tyler Ballgame.
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- [00:04]
Luke Burbank
Hey there.
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Welcome to Livewire.
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I'm your host, Luke Burbank.
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This week on the show, we welcome
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back our pal Atsuko Okatsuka. She is a comedian, social media star, but not like in an annoying way. Also a trendsetter for a very specific style of haircut. Atsuko is gonna tell us about the time when she was a little girl and visited America from Japan and then later learned that, oh, we've actually moved here and this is where I live now. We'll also talk to the writer Jack Balderrama Morley. He's the managing editor of the home design magazine Dwell, which is very relevant for his new book Dream Facades, where he focuses on reality TV shows and what their architectural styles actually say about them and us as an architecture and reality TV fan, this is very up my alley folks. Plus, Tyler Ballgame will sing us a song off his debut album. I honestly cannot wait for this episode to get started. You don't have to wait much longer either. Livewire gets going right after this.
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Sponsor Voice
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Elena Passarello
from PRX, it's Livewire. This week, comedian Atsuko Okatsuka.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
You drink soda, you run it off and then you feel emotional. You're like, I'm closer to God, sweetie. You're dehydrated. You've been in the sun all day.
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Elena Passarello
Journalist Jack Balderrama Morley.
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Jack Balderrama Morley
So you have this weird environment where these, you know, half a million dollar cars are racing around. But then you also have, you know, like LeAnn Rimes on a horse with
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Elena Passarello
music from Tyler Ballgame and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.
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Luke Burbank
We have got an absolutely fabulous radio show ready for you. But first, of course, we gotta kick things off the way we always do with a little segment we call the Best News we Heard all Week. This is our little reminder right at the top of the show that there is actually, believe it or not, some good news happening somewhere on planet Earth. And we have searched high and low and we actually found some. And we are going to tell you about it right now. Lena, what is the best news you heard all week?
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Elena Passarello
Yes. So this comes from the part of the planet known as London, England.
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Luke Burbank
Oh, sure.
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Elena Passarello
Which, you know, it's National Health Service, sort of world renowned. I believe the National Health Service got a shout out in the opening ceremonies to the London Summer Olympics. Very, very proud of their healthcare there. And they've always had these things called hospital gardens, which are opportunities for people that are impatient to be able to get outside and get some green space. Really, really lovely program. But one type of patient was never able to peruse the hospital gardens and that's folks in the icu. And you know, I always assume the ICU is a thing that you're not in for for very long, but some people are in the ICU for months and months and months and they have no access to fresh air. Sometimes they don't even have access to a window. It's a little an electrical issue to move them at all. And so King's College Hospital in South London has made the first of its kind in the uk, an ICU compatible rooftop.
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Luke Burbank
Wow.
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Elena Passarello
It's like these beautiful kind of patios of greenery and then these lovely kind of wooden and canvas awnings that arch over it. Six patients can occupy the rooftop ICU at a time. And there are these waterproof boxes in into which folks are obviously probably still in beds when they're wheeled up, but they still have a lot of machines that they need, and there are these electrical inputs so that they can come up there. And the first patient that went up there was like, I haven't seen the sunshine. I haven't felt the breeze on my face in two months. And they think that there's gonna be research opportunities for this. They're gonna look at those patients and the way that access affects their healing. So there's this lovely kind of scientific benefit from it as well.
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Luke Burbank
Absolutely. I mean, I'm no scientician, but I
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Elena Passarello
have to imagine you're a rocket surgeon.
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Luke Burbank
I have to imagine that there would be a benefit to your health, if only your mental health, you know, to just breathe some fresh air and be around some plants, you know, do to whatever degree you can, as they say in the parlance of our time, touch grass. Yeah, it's a big thing. The best news that I heard all week comes to us from Olathe, Kansas. And I can tell you, Elena, it is pronounced Olathe, Kansas, because I was recently there and I mispronounced it and I was corrected. At the Olathe Ford Lincoln dealership in Olathe, Kansas, one of their salespeople had recently sold a 2026 Ford F250 Kings Ranch.
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Elena Passarello
That was a big ass car.
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Luke Burbank
Good lord. It's about 100k. Well, when you pay all that money, you get really big tires, I guess, on these Ford F250s, you know, for driving through the field or going on back roads or as I see where I live, which is out in the country. Driving your kids to volleyball seems to be the main project for these enormous trucks.
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Elena Passarello
There's a lot of those in Costco parking lots.
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Luke Burbank
Yes, that's right. You needed to have a lot of super duty capacity to get those blueberry muffins home from Costco. Well, anyway, they sold one of these, but before the folks who bought the truck could come take possession of it, one of the folks working at the lot noticed on one of those big giant tires that a robin had started building her nest. And to their eternal credit, I'm being a bit snarky about truck culture, but somebody at the dealership said, if we move this nest or if we let the folks take this truck, we could be in violation of something called the migratory bird Treaty act of 1918. They did not move the truck. They left the nest there. And then the mama robin laid four eggs in the nest. And they are the most brilliant blue. I've seen photos of them. It's, of course, all over the Internet now. And so they just. They called the people up who had bought the truck, and they said, this is a weird one, but could you wait a while to get the truck because there's a migratory bird act that we don't want to violate. And the people said, yeah, we'll wait for the truck. And in fact, this was even cooler because there was a local group that takes care of birds or does stuff with them who said, we think we can move the robin's nest without disturbing this family too much. And the people who were buying the truck said, we don't want to do anything that would risk it. Just leave our $100,000 truck there until further notice. So that four eggs have hatched. There are four baby robins. Their names are Lug Nut, Axle, Diesel, and Turbo.
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Elena Passarello
Aw, poor Lug Nut. All the other ones are like, Lug Nut's like.
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Luke Burbank
He's like, why did I have to
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get the most literal tire name?
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But they are there in the nest and are being, of course, documented on Facebook and other places. But the people that work at the dealership are so excited about it. They're going out and interviewing the birds sometimes and stuff. And again, the people who. Who are going to take possession of the truck are being very patient. It's just kind of a lovely story all around. Also, somebody, I believe was one of the people that work at the. At the. The truck lot said that this F250 Kings Ranch can now be described as nest in class. And just the fact that I got to make that joke on public radio, I think. I think that's the best news I heard all week. This is Livewire. Let's get our first guest on out here. She's a comedian and actress who really kind of seems to be taking over the comedy scene right now with her unique humor, boundless energy, and infectious charm. Her stand up special Father recently premiered on Hulu and Disney. And following its success, she's embarked on the big bowl tour, which, if you have seen her iconic hair, really, if you know, you know, it's a great name. The tour has been hitting multiple cities across America, has been selling out left and right, which is why we are so excited she's stopping by here to be on Livewire. Please welcome Atsuko Okatsuka back to the show.
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Tyler Ballgame
Hello.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Thank you. Finally. Finally. Oh, sorry. It's just so lonely back there.
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Luke Burbank
Atsuko, welcome back to Livewire. By the way, it was I don't know how many years ago we had you on before, and you were so funny and one of the funniest guests we'd ever had. And then I feel like since then, I have just been watching from afar as your. The rocket ship that is your career has taken off. Like, every time I'm in Los Angeles, I'm seeing you on billboards. I was in Times Square, and you were flashing by, like, are you adjusting to the fact that you're now legitimately a famous person?
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Oh, my gosh. I mean, it all started here when it all.
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Luke Burbank
Mm. Yes.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Portland, Oregon, 2019. Who can forget? It was here at this stage that you believed in me first and you
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Luke Burbank
before you believed in yourself.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Yes. No, I know. So, I mean, sometimes that is how it goes. No, it's cool. It's cool to find my fellow weirdos. That's truly what I've just done by. Right. You know, me being myself and then y' all being like, we're here for it. That's says a lot about you too. You know, it's like. It's great. It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Like, truly, like, you know, as a standup, you can't do it yourself. So it's a lot on you guys too. Yeah.
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Luke Burbank
Do you feel, though, like. Because, you know, you obviously, your writing is so sharp and you have your performance so dialed in, but is it also just one of those things where you just keep doing it long enough and eventually things just start lining up for you? Because there are a lot of talented people who don't have the kind of success that you've had. What do you feel like it's kind of broke free for you?
- [12:12]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Yeah. You know, it's hard. I always like, to find your voice is so hard to find who you are. I always say the key to find who you are, you have to know who you're not. So I found out through that, you know, different. Oh, my God. I. One time, you know, years ago, well, during, you know, lockdown, everyone was trying baking. Am I a puzzle person? You know, I tried planting lettuce, and my husband had to remind me that that is not my personality. Right. He slapped the lettuce away from my hands, Which is a kind thing to do to someone you care about, because years later, you could wake up and be like, oh, my God, I am not a farmer years later. You know, but here you are with whole farms. And so I think that's what it was. I had to try different things. You know, I was, you know, when you first start doing standup. I was trying to sound like other people, you know, that I looked up to. I was trying to sound like Tig Notaro, who's a close friend of mine and, you know, is sort of a mentor to me too. But, you know, that's her voice, like, super deadpan. I was trying to do that, you know, too. It was during the pandemic when we were all locked down that I went online more and started just talking to camera and doing stand up on there and doing standup on zoom shows. And then that, you know, inherently I was able to reach more people because everyone was online and, yeah, that's how I kind of everyone started showing up that way.
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Luke Burbank
Yeah. I mean, you have had so much success at creating really fun content online and doing stuff, obviously, with your grandmother and stuff, where you invented an entire dance craze, essentially. And then today I was going on Instagram to follow you, and I noticed you have more than 1.7 million followers. Do you even control.
- [14:15]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Oh, I'm sorry, Luke. You going to follow me today?
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Luke Burbank
Yeah, Well, you had me blocked up until about 4pm this afternoon, which we need to talk about offstage. Do you, like, 1.7 million Instagram followers is a. It's a small business. Do you post your own stuff? Is there a team of people like, that is a valuable asset, that kind of reach on the Internet?
- [14:48]
Atsuko Okatsuka
I do post my stuff. You know, sometimes my husband, who's like, kind of like an extra arm, he's like, you know, an extra arm of mine because he super knows me. So, like, he has access to my Instagram and I would like, get off stage and see that I've posted on my. You know what I mean, on my Instagram stories like, you know, me crushing. And I'm like, oh, wait, what? So that was like my husband filming me and then he had posted it. Sometimes Ryan will be like, hey, you know, maybe not that picture of me sleeping, you know, And I'm like. I'm like. But the business this. You're listening to Livewire Tower is not good to have. Oh, sorry. You're listening to Livewire?
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Luke Burbank
Yeah. Do you want to do it? Would you like. Atsuko, could you read this part? It says, parenthetically, it says interrupt id. Will you just read that to take us to the break. It's in bold.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
This is Livewire from prx. We're talking to comedian and viral Internet sensation Atsuko Okatsuka. We've got to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Yeah, there you Go.
- [16:08]
Luke Burbank
Hey, Portland, get ready for the party of the summer because it's almost here. Of course, I'm talking about the Sports Bra. Proudly presenting its 5th annual Pride Block Party. You can join us. Sunday, July 19th from 1 to 10pm it is a day packed with queer joy and community. Live DJs keeping the block bumping, amazing performances, delicious food carts and refreshing drinks. Plus, don't miss Lift Out Loud. The wildly popular Sapphic Deadlift competition reflects meets fierce. This is an incredible celebration made possible by our sponsors, the Women's foundation of Oregon Square, Unrivaled Xfinity, Comcast and more.
- [16:50]
The best part, the Sports Bra, one
- [16:53]
of the true gems of Portland, Oregon, if I do say so, will donate
- [16:56]
a percentage of proceeds from Pride ticket
- [16:59]
sales to New Avenues for Youth's SMYRC program at Sexual and Gender Minority Youth Resource Center. SMYRC provides a free, safe, sober, supervised, harassment free space for queer and trans youth ages 13 to 24. Tickets are on sale right now and they're a little more expensive on the day of the event, so snag them early by going to the sports braofficial.com that's thesportsbraofficial.com. come on out, show up and party with Pride at the Sports Bra Pride Block Party.
- [17:39]
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- [18:23]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Welcome back to Livewire. I'm near your host, Luke Burbank.
- [18:35]
Luke Burbank
Is that what I sound like?
- [18:36]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Huh? Oh, is that an impression of me and Elena Passareo?
- [18:42]
Luke Burbank
Yes.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Did I say that right?
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Elena Passarello
Sure.
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Luke Burbank
Atsuka.
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What could you know about having a difficult to pronounce name?
- [18:51]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Thank you. Thank you for seeing me.
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Luke Burbank
We are talking to Atsuko Okatsuka here with Elena Passarello. The big bowl tour is going on right now. And also you have this special that's out on Hulu and Disney Father, which is so funny but also so illuminating about your life and about particularly the life that you had. You know, when you were 8 years old and you came over to the States, you were brought by Your grandmother and your mother. And it sounds like you thought you were coming for a visit. You were being sort of gently kidnapped. What did you think of this place when you got to LA and you realized, I'm actually living here? Like, what was your life like and what did it feel like for you?
- [19:31]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Yeah, it's hard because, you know, as a kid, you don't know, like, immigration rules. I just thought, like, oh, well, I came here, so I was allowed to, you know, there was, the plane took me, you know, I landed, I went to Disneyland, no one stopped me, you know, and so I just thought, you know. Yeah, I just thought, okay, like, this was allowed the way we came. And so I was surprised because my grandma told me it was just going to be two months. So that was the first surprise, right? That, oh, suddenly I'm enrolled in a school. You know, it's been three months. And then I found a diary entry when I was 18. So, like, I started writing diary entries once I got to the States, right? So it was like month one, oh, we went to Disneyland. It was cool month, we're still here, you know. And then the next one was like, Dear diary, I'm 16 now. I don't think we're going back anytime soon. And so those were surprises. And then the second kind of the other surprise was to find out I was undocumented the whole time. Yeah, yeah. Because again, like, I was going to school just like any other kid, you know. You know, I was able to go to the library. I was going to the movie theater. I just. I took the bus just like everyone else. So I didn't know that I didn't have certain rights, you know.
- [21:08]
Luke Burbank
Yeah, you did have the right to attend Jesus camp, which is one of the many similarities in our growing up years that everyone's talking about. We both went to Jesus camp. Yes, but you went like, you signed up for it. You wanted to go.
- [21:24]
Atsuko Okatsuka
I did want to go. Did you?
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Luke Burbank
Did you, like, speak in tongues? Like, what went on at this Jesus camp?
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Jesus camp, first off, that's how they get immigrants, you know, is I went to a. So I'm half Taiwanese, so I speak Chinese as well. And, you know, they go, well, I mean, you want friends, right? Like, you know, to immigrants, right? And I'm like, I do. And they're like, do you like free food? Yeah, I do. And we have that, too. We have friends, we have food. We also do free trips. And then I think I got really into it because it was. I felt like I found my community. Right. You Know, it was. I missed Japan a lot, but I couldn't go back because of, like, immigration stuff. And so, anyway, just to let you know, I wasn't just, like, into Jesus for fun. Like. Like, I was, and I'm no longer. Yeah. Luke Burbank might have been for fun, but yes. No. So at Jesus camp, I don't know how it was like, for you. Did you play, like, these, like, nighttime forest games?
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Luke Burbank
Sure.
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That's.
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That's how I got my daughter.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Okay.
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Tyler Ballgame
Wow.
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Luke Burbank
True story. True story.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Damn.
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Luke Burbank
True story. Did.
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Tyler Ballgame
How.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
How old were you going? How old were you?
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Luke Burbank
17.
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Tyler Ballgame
Oh.
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Luke Burbank
I just felt like it was time
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Atsuko Okatsuka
alone in the forest. But not so.
- [23:01]
Luke Burbank
Not so alone.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Not so.
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Luke Burbank
That was the thing.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
God is watching.
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Luke Burbank
Did you feel pressure? Was there an altar call? Did they do, like, a thing where, you know, the play, the music slows down and it's like, please come to the stage if you want to give your life to Jesus. Was it that kind of a scene?
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Atsuko Okatsuka
It was the forest game. The forest game. Can I tell you about this forest game? It was like, you know, so during the day, we would play regular sports, like, you know, football. Sorry, I'm so not athletic. Not football. It's like the flag football.
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Luke Burbank
Okay, sure.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
So not as intense. Christians love sports. Christians love, you know, physical activities. Right? Because it's either that and then you drink soda and that's it. But, like, you know, you need something, so you drink soda, you run it off, and then you feel emotional. You're like, I'm closer to God. Sweetie, you're dehydrated. You've been in the sun all day. You're horny. You're a teen. And at night, they make you play these forest games. One of them was. We had to. They were like, in China, they are locking up missionaries for bringing Bibles. They are catching them as they go across, you know, into the border of blah, blah, blah. That's what you will be playing tonight. You will be missionaries.
- [24:18]
Luke Burbank
Whoa.
- [24:19]
Atsuko Okatsuka
This was the game? Did you play this game?
- [24:21]
Luke Burbank
No, we were. We were doing it missionary.
- [24:26]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Okay. I like your camp. I like your camp. Yeah. Your camp sounds more fun.
- [24:32]
Luke Burbank
There's a lot of pregnancies.
- [24:34]
Tyler Ballgame
Wow.
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Luke Burbank
A bunch of horny Christian. Christian teens who were just told that abstinence was the answer.
- [24:42]
Atsuko Okatsuka
There was not enough physical activities at yours. So every sports.
- [24:46]
Jack Balderrama Morley
What do we do?
- [24:47]
Luke Burbank
More flag football? Yes.
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Tyler Ballgame
Yeah.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Oh, my gosh.
- [24:53]
Luke Burbank
But enough about me. So did you. I heard you talking about. You took a. When you decided you wanted to at least find out more about comedy you took a couple class you found on Craigslist. Yes, for standup. But what was the class like when you showed up? Was it led by a stand up comedian and they were teaching you how to write a set, like. And were you immediately pretty comfortable? Did you show early promise in this class?
- [25:17]
Atsuko Okatsuka
I think so. I needed, you know, I needed deadlines. And also, so I know, okay, so I know it sounds wild, but when I wanted to start standup, I didn't know, you know, at that time, Right. You're supposed to start showing up to open mics in Los Angeles. But open mics were usually like, you know, like 10pm to like 2am sometimes in dark alleyways. This is how people go missing, you know. Right. And women at that time, you know, you'd be like the only girl maybe at like 1am and so I was like, I don't want to die. So, you know, to try doing just a couple minutes at a time is what you were allowed of jokes. And so that's like, I just, I went on Craigslist to see if there were any classes.
- [26:07]
Luke Burbank
Famous safe place, Craigslist unhinged.
- [26:12]
Atsuko Okatsuka
That's how few places there were for women. I said, Craigslist is better.
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Elena Passarello
It's better.
- [26:17]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Yeah. I said, I bought furniture on there before that turned out to be real. So luckily it was. Luckily when I showed up to the address, it was an all female stand up comedy class taught by Lisa Sunsted. And luckily it was an actual. Everything was legit and.
- [26:38]
Elena Passarello
Yeah.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
And so it was really great to start in a safe, very supportive space.
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Elena Passarello
What do they teach you? Is it about structure or is it about timing? What are the lessons like?
- [26:50]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Yeah, it's like structure and then there's, there's like rules in comedy that like you'll start realizing, oh, I've known that all my life. I just didn't know, you know, that like the rule of threes, for example, you know, an example of that. Do you want an example of that?
- [27:07]
Luke Burbank
Absolutely.
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Atsuko Okatsuka
Like, let's say like, okay, so my name is Atsuko Okatsuka. My grandma's name is Yingxili and my mom just goes by Linda. So that's like the third one is the big, you know, the sort of like switch that you wouldn't have seen coming. Things like that that you learn, you
- [27:27]
Luke Burbank
know, I've heard you say that you are so identified with your particular hairstyle now. I mean, your tour is called the Big bowl, right? Yeah, it's. I mean, you have an incredible look. It's, I think a Big part of kind of, you know, your identity online and things like that. But you've also said now you can never change your hairstyle. Do you feel. I mean, do you feel stuck in this hairstyle for the rest of your life, your professional life?
- [27:52]
Atsuko Okatsuka
I. I mean, it's on. It's on the T shirts. And also my fans. My fans do show up and wearing wigs of my bowl cut. Right? And so how am I supposed to tell them they gotta change the wig now? You know, I think that, you know, in the right phase, I'll grow it out. I can also maybe get a wig of this haircut too.
- [28:24]
Luke Burbank
Ah, interesting.
- [28:25]
Atsuko Okatsuka
And then just wear it for when I perform. You know, I'm very inspired by, you know, my drag queen friends who, you know, also have like a stage Persona. And then when they're off, you know. But I'm very me on and off stage, so it's kind of hard.
- [28:39]
Luke Burbank
I don't mean to sort of keep obsessing over this, Atsuko, but I'm just so. I'm such a fan of your work and I'm so excited about the way that your career has really played out for you. And every time I see you having success, I'm just so glad it's happening to somebody who's so talented and such a kind person. Kind to come be on little old Livewire all these years later. Seriously.
- [28:57]
Tyler Ballgame
Oh.
- [28:58]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Oh, thank you.
- [29:01]
Luke Burbank
Like, does this feel the way that you thought it was gonna feel? You know, when you were going to that Craigslist comedy class? What were your wildest dreams about your standup comedy career? And how does it feel to have that happen?
- [29:12]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Oh, that's so sweet. I didn't actually, you know, to be real, I didn't actually dream big, you know, I didn't dare dream big. When I was, you know, a kid to teenager, I didn't know I could. And so I'm really just going with the moment. And yeah, because I think. And you could tell, you could tell people like, oh, this girl's improvising. She's the most surprised because I'll, you know, there's so sometimes people will come up and be like, hey, can we take a picture together? And it's very sweet. But there are. When I say, for some reason, a lot of my fans catch me mid eating, that's when you know you're most vulnerable. There's food in your mouth, you're satisfied, you're famished. And I say yes. And so there's a lot of pictures of me with, like, food on my mouth, I guess, because afterwards my husband will look at me and be like, God, Atsuko, there's crumbs.
- [30:24]
Elena Passarello
There's crumbs.
- [30:25]
Atsuko Okatsuka
And I'm like, I just took six pictures.
- [30:28]
Tyler Ballgame
But.
- [30:29]
Atsuko Okatsuka
So, yeah, I'm not ready for it. But it's super new still, I feel like, you know, But I love it. I love meeting my, you know, again, like, fellow, fellow weirdos.
- [30:40]
Luke Burbank
Well, I can tell the radio audience that. Atsuko, you look flawless. No crumbs.
- [30:45]
Elena Passarello
No crumbs.
- [30:46]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Oh, thank you.
- [30:47]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. Too bad it's being wasted on a radio show where there's no visual images, but I know.
- [30:52]
Atsuko Okatsuka
I was like, oh, I gotta wear earrings. But there's an audience here.
- [30:57]
Elena Passarello
Yeah, they are.
- [30:57]
Luke Burbank
And they sure love you in front of us. Atsuko Okotsuka here on Livewire. Thank you so much.
- [31:08]
That was Atsuko Okatsuka recorded at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Make sure you check out her latest comedy special, Father on Hulu and Disney, and look for her on her big bowl tour happening right now. Hey, special thanks this episode to Lisa Watson of Portland, Oregon, and Charles Hartley of New York, New York. Lisa and Charles are part of the Livewire member community, and they are generously supporting us with a donation each month. And, boy, are we grateful for that because it's how we are still on the air and on your podcast. This could not happen without the help of folks like Lisa and Charles. You're tuned to Livewire from prx. All right, let's get our next guest on up here. Now, if you are a reality TV fan, you might have noticed that at some point, the architecture of the show, you know, like the actual houses that the stars are living in, they kind of become their own characters. I mean, you might not even like the Bachelorette's, like, fantasy suite decor, but maybe you find it oddly calming or aspirational. Well, our next guest has some theories as to why you might feel that way. He's a former architectural designer turned managing editor over at Dwell magazine. His writing has appeared in the New Yorker and now in the new book Dream the Cruel Architecture of Reality tv. Take a listen to Jack Balderrama Morley, recorded at the Alberta Rose in Portland, Oregon.
- [32:46]
Jack, welcome to Livewire. Thank you.
- [32:48]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [32:50]
Luke Burbank
I really, really enjoyed this book because it does bring together two passions of mine, architecture and reality television. I'm curious about your relationship with reality TV and when you started to actually notice the physical architecture of what was going on on the shows you were watching?
- [33:06]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Totally. I mean, I've been a lifelong fan of reality TV growing up, but I think the architectures on the shows you pick up on. I think as you said, it's a big character on the shows whether you notice it or not. And then, you know, I went to architecture school, I became a design editor and I noticed that even among my sort of highfalutin, highbrow design friends, we're watching these shows like Selling Sunset and looking at these homes and you know, we knew how to talk about Frank Gehry or Zaha Hadid in those homes. But then these weird like monsters that we'd see on these shows were a total mystery.
- [33:45]
Luke Burbank
You talk in the book about reality TV creating like what you call a home to home visual connection. What does that mean exactly?
- [33:52]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Totally. Yeah. That was something I realized as I was researching the book that reality TV is kind of unique in that it actually creates these visual connections between homes. It was one of the first media, maybe the first media to really do that where you see someone's real home and it's a screen in your home.
- [34:10]
Luke Burbank
You went to architecture school and you were an architect for a while and then you. I always, I think of architecture and being an architect as the coolest job you could ever have. What is it, Mr. Brady? Yes, thank you. What is it that I humble a humble public radio host, don't understand about the real day to day life existence of an architect and what about it was not fulfilling for you? And if that's too, and if that's too personal a question, we can talk, just talk about Selling Sunset.
- [34:38]
Jack Balderrama Morley
The trauma. No, architecture. It's interesting because it's really actually a service industry. Like there is a lot that's really glamorous about it but. And intellectual and all that kind of stuff. But a lot of architects, what you're doing is you're doing a service for rich people and you're designing wealthy people's homes and often a million dollar bathroom. And I think you reach the point where you wonder, is this what I want to do with my life?
- [35:02]
Luke Burbank
Well, speaking of million dollar bathrooms, in the book you sort of focus on six reality shows and the architecture in those shows. And I want to try to get to as many of these as we can with our. So let's start with the show that's called Selling Sunset, which some of these folks may not be aware of. What is the kind of premise of the show and what's the architecture tend
- [35:20]
Jack Balderrama Morley
to be like Selling Sunset's amazing. It's sort of the highest form of the real estate shows where you just see people going and selling homes on the show and somehow that becomes compelling. And on selling Sunset, partially, that's because the homes that they're selling are these giant homes in the Hollywood Hill that have these sliding glass walls and every surface is just shiny and white. And it's like, it's hard to really wrap your head around that anybody really lives there. I think you can't really tell, like, do I like this or do I hate this? Like, is this scary? Is this aspirational?
- [35:59]
Luke Burbank
Am I hungry?
- [35:59]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Yeah.
- [36:00]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Yes.
- [36:00]
Luke Burbank
There's so many questions.
- [36:02]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Just the panic state that you go into.
- [36:04]
Atsuko Okatsuka
Yeah.
- [36:05]
Luke Burbank
You also write about the Kardashians, which doesn't need a lot of explanation. We know who we're keeping up with here in this life. But my sense of it is that, you know, they all have different mansions and I know that they sort of collab at one place. But, like, how do you describe or how do you think about the sort of architectural theme or vibe of the Kardashian family and why it sort of matters to the book?
- [36:28]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Paranoia.
- [36:29]
Luke Burbank
That's like, that's their architectural theme.
- [36:32]
Jack Balderrama Morley
It is, though. It is also they. So they weirdly. Chris and Chloe. So Chris is the mother and Chloe.
- [36:39]
Luke Burbank
Yes. The momager.
- [36:39]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Yes, the Momager.
- [36:42]
Luke Burbank
Like you don't know that.
- [36:46]
Jack Balderrama Morley
So they live in these homes that are modern farmhouse style on the exterior, which I thought was really strange because that's, you know, you think of Waco, Texas, and rustic goods and these old fashioned sinks.
- [36:58]
Luke Burbank
Chip and Joanna Gaines.
- [37:00]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Chip and Joanna Gaines.
- [37:01]
Luke Burbank
Giant clocks everywhere. Thank you.
- [37:03]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Yes, yes. Not Kardashians, who are so, you know, sleek and everything's pulled back and futuristic. So what was going on there? And then unpacking. Just the history in the valley and the strange city of Hidden Hills where they live, which is totally gated. That there is a sort of sense of kind of Western pioneer paranoia where you have to live on this farmstead. Everybody else is out to get you. And you see that on the show, whether it's the paparazzi coming in or aggressive fans or something like that. And they have to stay in these compounds and stay home and they work and they work from home. Just the work they do is putting on a reality show.
- [37:45]
Luke Burbank
But the idea of this architecture and it being kind of like you said, sort of not that sleek glass selling sunset, but rather this like farmhouse vibe is almost like a shell or an armor against the reality of what their real Life is essentially.
- [38:02]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Yeah, it has this weird history in the area. I mean, Hidden Hills is this extremely exclusive gated community in the valley north of Los Angeles. But it's also so, you know, total rich people, influencers, very strange cohort there. But it's also an equestrian community. So every lot in the city has to leave space for a bridle path for horses to go by and a horse barn, or they have to have a horse barn. And nothing can be too high. So everything has to feel low and kind of rural. So you have this weird environment where these half a million dollar cars are racing around. But then you also have Leann Rimes on a horse.
- [38:42]
Luke Burbank
We're talking to Jack Balderrama Morley about their book Dream Facades that the cruel architecture of reality tv. You also write about the Real World, the MTV show I was very excited to see. This was in the book. Cause the Real World was a biggie for me in my teens and twenties, like very aspirational. It's a bunch of young people that are being put together in either, like the coolest loft ever or some giant house or a great house in San Francisco or wherever. And it just seemed like a dream life to me. As a fan of hot tubs and arguing, set in a dream space.
- [39:21]
Elena Passarello
There's always a moment when they get to the house for the first time where they run around screaming because they can't believe what the design is like. You get to ogle the house with them when you're watching in your home, like you said, which doesn't look anything like that.
- [39:35]
Tyler Ballgame
Right.
- [39:36]
Jack Balderrama Morley
I hope.
- [39:38]
Luke Burbank
Yeah. What do you see as the significance of the real estate in the Real World?
- [39:43]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Well, the Real World, the thing that struck me that I hadn't really thought of was that it starts in New York City. It's ostensibly the first reality TV show. And so you think about it, reality TV started in New York, in SoHo, in this neighborhood that's supposed to be known for underground artists and minimalism and counterculture stuff. And the Real World, I think, takes that idea of artists working in these lofts at home and then turns it again. Where the artwork that these people are creating is their lives just on display. And the show becomes the artwork that they're creating, which is a really exciting idea that you go and you live in a loft and you're creative just by existing just on the couch in the hot tub.
- [40:30]
Luke Burbank
Yeah.
- [40:31]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Arguing that that can be a creative act.
- [40:34]
Luke Burbank
And that's just by being a lot.
- [40:35]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the architecture, that sort of garish brightness of it, I think, ties into that. You know, your personality is supposed to be part of the garish pop that you see around you. And everything is supposed to be this discordant collision of different things, and somehow that's thrilling and exciting and what we want out of life.
- [40:56]
Luke Burbank
You know, you, of course, know reality TV conversation or list would be complete without a Real Housewives section. And you chose to focus on the Real Housewives of Atlanta.
- [41:09]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Yes.
- [41:10]
Luke Burbank
Why the Atlanta season?
- [41:12]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Well, personally, it's my favorite.
- [41:13]
Elena Passarello
Amen.
- [41:14]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Thank you. See, this is what happens is you find out all the shows people say they don't watch, and then suddenly, oh, I kind of watch Atlanta.
- [41:23]
Sponsor Voice
No.
- [41:24]
Yeah.
- [41:24]
Elena Passarello
It's like a reflex. It is the best one.
- [41:26]
Jack Balderrama Morley
It is the best one. And it was also the highest rated one for a long time. So it really was, I think, like the gold standard of the Real Housewives and really pioneered that format. And then, oh, my gosh, Cherie Whitfield and Chateau Charay is just the icon and the legend and I think also a paradigmatic figure for Americans and how they relate to their homes because, you know, she has her Chateau Charay that she's determined to build over seasons and seasons of the show, and it's synonymous with who she is, and it reflects who she is as a person. And that really has deep roots within American culture that we're so invested in this idea of home ownership and that you have to own a home to be a real person. But then all of that, of course, is a construction and was developed as an idea in the 1930s, largely that Americans should be homeowners, that we're not going to be communists, we're not going to have that sort of publicly owned property. And no, we're all going to have our own little homes. We're going to own them, and then we can be controlled by the economy.
- [42:27]
Sponsor Voice
Right?
- [42:27]
Luke Burbank
Yes.
- [42:28]
Tyler Ballgame
Yeah.
- [42:28]
Luke Burbank
Which seems to be working well so far.
- [42:30]
Elena Passarello
I'd say it turned out great.
- [42:33]
Luke Burbank
We're talking to Jack Balderma Morley about his book Dream the Cruel Architecture of Reality tv. You also write about the show Fire Island.
- [42:42]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Yes.
- [42:44]
Luke Burbank
What is it about the backdrops and the sort of architecture of that show that jumped out to you?
- [42:50]
Jack Balderrama Morley
So that show, it seemed like maybe this was reality TV doing something good. It's not just selling the traditional, you know, heteronormative norms of what life could be. It goes to Fire island, which is a gay resort island not far from New York City, and people go out for the summer and, you know, they can do all kinds of Things they don't normally get to do. And you're sort of in mixed company in street society. But there's a downside there too, and it ends up not really working out. Where the area gets developed as a sort of masculine architecture and a masculine modernism that's not going to be frilly and delicate and it's going to be stripped bare. So that the area could be for sort of straight acting gay guys who want to be those kinds of masters of society, sort of Calvin Klein, David Geffen. And so even in trying to get away and develop this new alternative, it ends up reproducing a lot of the same norms that exist in the rest of society.
- [43:53]
Luke Burbank
Why do you say the cruel architecture of reality tv? Like, what's cruel about this?
- [43:58]
Jack Balderrama Morley
So that comes from literary theorist Lauren Berlant. So try to get a little highbrow there.
- [44:03]
Luke Burbank
Yes.
- [44:04]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Cruel Optimism was a book that they wrote about things in general that people become emotionally invested in and optimistic about that are actually counter to their own flourishing. So homeownership is kind of along with that, you get invested or getting married. You really think that this is what's going to solve things for.
- [44:22]
Luke Burbank
I keep trying.
- [44:25]
Jack Balderrama Morley
It's cruel.
- [44:26]
Tyler Ballgame
See,
- [44:28]
Jack Balderrama Morley
don't be cruel to yourself. And that's what these homes do. Not just the homes on the shows where they sell the idea that we could have the good life, that we could be just as rich as the Kardashians, or we could live fun and wild like in the real world. But even our own homes, I think, sell us the idea that we could be safe and happy and autonomous on our own, living in our own little suburban bungalow, when, you know, obviously that's not true. We all need each other and to rely on each other and have community.
- [45:02]
Luke Burbank
This theory that you have in the book about the physical digital hybrid home, did you invent that?
- [45:07]
Jack Balderrama Morley
I sure did.
- [45:09]
Luke Burbank
Can you kind of unpack that a little bit?
- [45:12]
Jack Balderrama Morley
Totally, yeah. So that's going back to the idea that reality TV has these kind of home to home connections and thinking that, you know, if a typical suburban home used to have a picture window that got replaced by a TV there. And now on those TV screens we're seeing these other homes, and these other homes are fulfilling some of what we're looking for from our own physical homes, whether it's companionship, you know, a place for companionship as the real world, or giving us a feeling of security and accomplishment, you know, we're cheering along with Shift, Sherry Whitfield building her own home. We feel like we've done it, and we get to sort of microdose that feeling. So our physical homes no longer are just the physical homes, but have these kind of weird digital appendages sutured onto them. It's like you get the sort of simulation of a feeling of security, but obviously it's just a TV show. It's not really giving it to you, but you get hooked on that drug.
- [46:11]
Elena Passarello
What if your TV is just like a screensaver that shows Van Gogh's?
- [46:15]
Jack Balderrama Morley
You are doing everything right.
- [46:17]
Luke Burbank
Wow.
- [46:20]
Elena Passarello
I don't have that. I don't know.
- [46:21]
Jack Balderrama Morley
I think.
- [46:22]
Luke Burbank
I think this is a pretty, pretty good place to end. The book is Dream the Cruel Architecture of Reality tv. Jack Balderrama Morley, thanks for coming on livewire.
- [46:29]
Tyler Ballgame
Thank you.
- [46:33]
Luke Burbank
That was Jack Balderrama Morley recorded at the Alberta Rose in Portland, Oregon, talking about his book Dream Facades the Cruel Architecture of Reality tv, which is out and available right now. You're tuned in to livewire. We've got to take a very quick break, but do not go anywhere. When we return, you will hear some music from one of my new favorite artists out there. His name is Tyler Ballgame, and he's sort of hard to describe. Think Jeff Buckley meets Roy Orbison. It's somehow nostalgic and modern all at the same time. Anyway, just stick around and hear it for yourself. Coming up in a moment on livewire.
- [47:12]
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- [48:16]
Luke Burbank
Welcome back to livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Okay, before we get to this week's musical performance from Tyler Ballgame, a little preview of next week's show. We're gonna be celebrating Independence Day with a Fourth of July special. Now, yes, we know things are, let's just say, complicated right now in this nation of ours. We figured we would take an honest and hopeful look at this place called America that is turning 250. But also we thought we would talk about hot dogs. That's a big thing. On the 4th of July. We are going to be chatting with the podcaster and writer Jamie Loftus, who went on a road trip across the country to explore the weird and wonderful world of hot dogs, which she details in her book Raw the Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. Plus, writer Daisy Hernandez will discuss her incredible book, Notes on an American Myth. Then singer songwriter Olive Klug will take us home with a song. It's literally called Song About America. I know it's almost too on the nose, but it's actually perfect for our 4th of July show coming up next week. Do not miss it. All right, Getting to our musical guest for this week. He is an emerging artist whose debut album, for the First Time Again, was released by the legendary label Rough Trade Records. He's known for his infectious melodies that harken back to the singer songwriters of the 1960s and 70s. He also has a reputation for unforgettable live performances, which we were lucky enough to witness on stage at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon, recently. This is Tyler Baldwin here on my part.
- [49:53]
Tyler, it is so nice to see you.
- [49:56]
Tyler Ballgame
Oh, good to be seen.
- [49:58]
Luke Burbank
I've been wearing out your new record. Like it has just been in heavy rotation in my house. It's so good. I've been also reading up a little bit on kind of your backstory. So you went to Berklee College of Music?
- [50:08]
Tyler Ballgame
Yeah, technically.
- [50:10]
Luke Burbank
Okay. Like you got a diploma from there, but.
- [50:13]
Tyler Ballgame
No, didn't get the diploma.
- [50:15]
Luke Burbank
Okay. And then you were sort of back in Rhode island after that and kind of trying to figure out your life and your music.
- [50:22]
Tyler Ballgame
Yeah, you know, just moved home, kind of was aimless, you know, always had music keeping me going, but wasn't really sure where I fit in, you know, and needed actually the pandemic happened and I felt like the world was asking nothing of me now, you know, other than to stay at home. And gave me a chance to kind of reassess and dream about what my life could look like and where I could go and what I could do. And I took a big gamble, moved to la, having never been there. Didn't Know anyone?
- [50:51]
Luke Burbank
Didn't you move to LA by basically lying to a real estate company?
- [50:54]
Tyler Ballgame
Yeah, I just responded to an ad and wrote a good email, and I said I had a degree and that I had done the job before and I got the job.
- [51:03]
Luke Burbank
And that got you out to la?
- [51:04]
Tyler Ballgame
Yeah, it kept the lights on for, like, three years.
- [51:07]
Luke Burbank
So you got to LA and you're working your day job, but you're also playing music all the time with folks. What was the journey of your music once you got to LA and the kind of music you were making?
- [51:19]
Tyler Ballgame
Yeah, you know, just was always around the open mics, meeting people, collaborating with people, finding my people, you know, that was so important. I think so much of music and success in general today is kind of attributed to the illusion of individuality, you know, and really, I inherently knew I needed to find that community, and finding that community of songwriters and producers and musicians really turned my life into this beautiful blossoming success filled with amazing people making art.
- [51:50]
Luke Burbank
Well, what song are we going to hear?
- [51:52]
Tyler Ballgame
Yeah, I figured I'd do. I'd start with the title track of the record, a song that means a lot to me. For the First Time Again all right,
- [51:59]
Luke Burbank
this is Tyler Ballgame here on Livewire.
- [52:18]
Tyler Ballgame
Shook the hand of unbound desire. Leaned in close in love had made its fools. So many lives never surrender when it's over and done
- [52:55]
we try.
- [53:02]
Can't wait to meet you for the first time again. Can't wait to meet you for the first time again. I love you. I love you.
- [53:28]
I have known you forever?
- [53:37]
Your fire was and always will be. I learned your name but missed its meaning when I didn't know how
- [54:05]
Atsuko Okatsuka
to feel.
- [54:11]
Tyler Ballgame
Can't wait to meet you for the first time okay. Can wait to meet you at the first time again. Oh, I knew you once I know you now I've known you forever. Can't wait to meet you for the first time again. Sam.
- [55:35]
Luke Burbank
That was Tyler Ball Game live from the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. His album for the First Time Again is available right now. All right, that's gonna do it for this week's episode of the show. A huge thanks to our guests, Atsuko Okatsuka, Jack Balderrama Morley, and Tyler Ballgame.
- [55:55]
Elena Passarello
Laura Hadden is our executive producer, and Melanie Savchenko is our producer and editor. Evan Hoffer is our technical director. Trey Hester is our assistant editor, and Ashley park is our marketing manager.
- [56:07]
Luke Burbank
Our house sound is by Dee, Neal Blake, and our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker. Sam Pinkerton, Eyal Alves, Matt Sheehy and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Trey Hester.
- [56:20]
Elena Passarello
Additional funding provided by the City of Portland's Office of Arts and Culture. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff.
- [56:29]
Luke Burbank
This week we'd like to thank members Lisa Watson of Portland, Oregon and Charles Hartley of New York, New York. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head ON over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire team, thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.
- [57:09]
Hey, if you appreciate the work that Livewire is doing to amplify riveting and unexpected voices to a national audience, and
- [57:17]
I gotta tell you, it's a big
- [57:19]
audience these days, please, please, please consider offering some monthly support by becoming a member of our League of Extraordinary Listeners. Here's how it works. Membership starts at just five bucks a month and there are great perks at every level, including a special shout out on the broadcast. Impress your friends by being shouted out on Livewire. It means the world to us and really does make it possible for us
- [57:41]
Sponsor Voice
to do the show.
- [57:42]
Luke Burbank
So please, if you can, help, support
- [57:44]
us by visiting livewireradio.org Memberships.
- [57:55]
Atsuko Okatsuka
From prx.