Susie Burbank (6:16)

We are doing a background interview to understand what your history with drinking has been and how you ended up where you are now.

Luke Burbank (6:24)

I just want to get one thing sort of straight. Is this an intervention?

Susie Burbank (6:30)

You think that we would have waited this long also?

Luke Burbank (6:32)

I feel like there'd be more than two people here. There's many lives have been affected, more than just yours. Okay, just to be clear, it wasn't actually an intervention, even though it kind of seemed like it might be. It did, though, get the ball rolling on this show. So let's talk about what my relationship with alcohol has looked like historically. Well, I work in the notoriously hard partying world of public radio. It's actually not like it's kind of the opposite of that generally, I think. But I think for me, maybe because of how I grew up, like, kind of socioeconomically, and nobody in my family really went to college, and I didn't grow up with or really befriend people who cared about public radio. And so I think I just always wanted to be the guy who could be at the Tattletale Bar in Culver City throwing back shots and playing dice with Patty Parker, you know, mere hours after I had been at the NPR bureau, which was just up the road covering some sort of important world event or, I don't know, the Michael Jackson trial or something.

Susie Burbank (7:49)

Luke, it's almost over. What are we expecting today and during those final hours before the case goes to the jury?

Luke Burbank (7:55)

Well, this is a little bit of housekeeping, Alex, before the big fireworks of tomorrow. The jury instructions are still being wrangled over between the defense and the prosecution. That is the specific. That duality somehow made me feel like I was, I guess, maybe having it all or I could do it all or something. Now, the problem with all that is staying out till all hours and drinking and carousing and gambling, like, really stops being charming at a certain point. And I hit that point years ago, and then I just kind of just kept on going and, you know, ruined some marriages and ruined some bank accounts. Where things are at for me in this very moment of my life is I do have a sort of a system that seems to be working, which is just mostly I don't drink. I have cut back tremendously, but I have not cut back to zero. And if this was a sobriety podcast, I feel like I would be telling you that with taking alcohol out of most of my life, I have, like, reconnected with some kind of rich vibrancy of the universe and that foods taste better and air is more oxygenated or something. But it's really not that. It's just like, instead of drinking, I often just lay on my couch looking at TikTok. That's basically what's working for me right now. So clearly, I'm still trying to understand this whole thing. I'm 48 years old. I have one child. She's 30. I have a moderately successful media career. I've got a lot of alcohol consumption under my belt. So I figured I would sort of start at the beginning. I would talk to my mom, Susie, about her journey with alcohol, which is a pretty unusual one. Take a listen to this. Are you planning to actively eat the cheesecake while we're talking?

Susie Burbank (9:54)

That's what I was hoping. Would you rather me just kind of wait on it? It'll sit just fine.

Luke Burbank (10:01)

I mean, or you could have it now and I could wait. It's kind of your call.

Susie Burbank (10:05)

I'll just let it sit. It's got some whipped cream on it, so it'll kind of melt into the cheesecake. It's all good.

Luke Burbank (10:10)

How did you think about drinking when you were a young girl, like, before you got involved in the church and that became your life? Did you drink a lot? Did you feel really good when you drank? What was your relationship with alcohol like in a pretty brief window for you?

Susie Burbank (10:24)

Well, the first time I ever actually, I guess, got drunk, I was really young, and I was going to a dance, I think I was 13 or 14, a neighborhood dance that it was actually Thanksgiving night. And I drank a bunch of my mom's, my stepmom's gin, and I just guzzled it down. Like, I put it in a little Tupperware container, put it in the basement, and then I just thought, okay, I'll just gulp this down. And it was like, oh, my gosh. I don't even know how I got to the dance, how I got from the dance, because that set off this chain of not just drinking, but drinking to get drunk, you know, so even.

Luke Burbank (11:06)

As, like, a teenager, that was the goal. You wanted to kind of erase your feelings or just not be in your head?

Susie Burbank (11:13)

I think so. Because my, you know, this dysfunction in the family. I totally love my dad, but my dad was, you know, like I said, he. He didn't marry well the second time you know, to my stepmother. And there was a lot of problems in the family, and I did not get along with my stepmom at all. So there was a lot of escapism going on in my heart. Like I was always out with my friends as much as I could get out of the house.

Luke Burbank (11:39)

What I think is so interesting about your life story, mom, and your relationship with alcohol is that basically you go from being this sort of wild kid in Philadelphia, to moving out to California, to getting saved, to becoming part of this evangelical Christian movement where nobody's drinking. And so for basically the intervening, I don't know, 20, 25 years, you're not really a drinker, right? Did you crave alcohol? Did you think about alcohol when you were raising kids and living in this kind of social environment where no one ever drank?

Susie Burbank (12:16)

No, I really didn't think about alcohol. And I used to love marijuana. I didn't think about marijuana. Those things were like not even a part of my day to day life at all. So it was kind of interesting how it snuck back in.

Luke Burbank (12:30)

And my sense of that is really that it was kind of us kids in a way because we, you know, a couple of us, the older ones had grown. We were now over the age of 21. We'd come home for things, there's a barbecue or whatever or a holiday and we would bring alcohol because we now liked to drink. And that kind of put it back in your mind and to some degree, but a lesser degree, dad's mind.

Susie Burbank (12:53)

I really think so. And I wanted to relate to my boys. So I started to really get interested in football and especially the Seahawks. Well, the same thing happened with the alcohol back then. It was like when my grown kids would come over and they'd bring a bottle of wine or something. It was like really fun to drink with them. But for me, I couldn't stop with just like a glass or even 2 of wine. It was like triggered something inside of me and I just wanted more and more and more.

Luke Burbank (13:21)

So there was pretty quickly when you kind of reconnected with alcohol, there was like secrecy around it and kind of having more than everybody else would kind of be aware of.

Susie Burbank (13:31)

Yeah, I think so. I think it was really secret. But I knew there was something not quite. Well, I knew there was something not right almost from the get go because when I stopped drinking at 20, 21, whenever it was, I was pretty much on the road to full on alcoholism, although I didn't identify it that way. But then when I started drinking again As a, well, 40 year old, it was almost like you pick up where you left off because it triggered something in me that it just gave me that sort of like buzz that I really liked and I wanted to really like not think about some things. There were some things coming down. We had moved, and there was, like, a loneliness there. So it kind of met some of those needs. And, yeah, that's pretty much what happened.

Luke Burbank (14:17)

What was your thought process once you realized, oh, no, I'm in a bad place with this, but I don't know how to stop it? Were you just kind of thinking, I just got to make better decisions starting tomorrow. I know the feeling personally of having too much to drink and then waking up the next day and thinking, okay, I'm never drinking again, or I'm never making these kinds of bad decisions, and that's going to fix it. When you were in the midst of, as they would say, your addiction, when what was your mentality?

Susie Burbank (14:44)

Well, I never had hangovers, and I don't. I guess I was spared them, for lack of a better term. So it was like I really didn't come to terms with me being an alcoholic. I was in denial. But I knew something was wrong. When I would be in town and I would call my husband, you know, we had cell phones. And I would call and say, not, are we out of milk? Cause we still have kids at home. Are we out of wine? And he'd be like, yeah, we are out of wine. And I would, like, beeline right back to the store. Because to me, being out of wine was more critical than being out of milk. And there was something really wrong with that one.

Luke Burbank (15:20)

I'd forgotten that the youngest kids were still at home in high school or whatever. What do you think the impact was on them of them being home in this period of your life, as much as you can kind of know that from your perspective?

Susie Burbank (15:36)

Well, I really did hide it well. But what I would do is, if I was drinking a lot, I would just say, oh, I'm tired. I'm going to take a nap, or I'm going to go to bed. So it wasn't really addressed until it got to the point where it had to be addressed with the kids and with my husband. And, yeah, that came pretty abruptly. So I hid it for a really long time. But I knew something wasn't right when I would not only drink wine, you know, like in the early evening, but I would buy port, which is like, oh, just to think of the taste right now, you know, cheap port. It was so sugary. But I would put it up in my bedroom and hide it in different places. And then I would just guzzle port, which had quite a bit of alcohol content in it.

Luke Burbank (16:22)

Just the sugar content of that is difficult. To imagine, like, you know, a lot of people that struggle with kind of secretive drinking, they switch at some point to vodka because it doesn't have lot of smell. And it's pretty clear doesn't, you know, it's like. And unfortunately it's like the way that you can sort of get by with it. Port is not usually on the list of the things that people secretly guzzle.

Susie Burbank (16:43)

It's very true. But for some reason it went down really quick. It wasn't like I had to like cough it down or anything. It was easy to drink. But I knew when I was actually hiding it, like in the hamper or wherever it was, there's something that was just in check in my mind. Like something's gone a little over the top here.

Luke Burbank (17:04)

So then you sort of had this moment where you had way too much to drink and it was kind of a scene and dad came and got you. And I was, I think maybe living either in LA or New York at this time, but I just heard the sort of story of it and it was, you'd had way too much and it was kind of a situation, but that basically after that there was a family meeting and the conversation was like, that you can't keep doing this. Did you kind of know right away in that family meeting or maybe we'll call it an intervention or did you understand instinctively? Yes, this is the end of the road for me with this alcohol thing. Or did some part of you think these guys have it wrong?

Susie Burbank (17:44)

No. The second time I knew it was definitely I had to stop. But the Christmas before that, May, when I realized I need help, I got really drunk over the Christmas time and it was. We had company over, my sister from Seattle and her family. And they were actually missionaries at the time. And so it was really uncomfortable for me that they were coming over because I kind of like had to hide my problem. Instead, I intensified it by getting, you know, running errands and doing things the day they were arriving and just drinking like, you know, Dr. Pepper from Burger King with just booze in it, you know, like driving around. I was like the nervousness of them coming and thinking my sister was going to judge me. So I just drank so much that I was totally plastered when they came and I had to pick them up at the ferry. It was just pretty scary. And that was like that wake up call happened because I basically went to bed and it wasn't Christmas Day, but it was close to Christmas and they. I woke up to hearing the dishes being put away, you know, washed and I could hear kitchen activity, and I wasn't a part of it. So dinner had already been eaten. And I was so embarrassed because I had nieces and nephew here and my own kids. And I remember coming downstairs and saying, I'm so sorry. I'm an alcoholic. This was Christmas time. And I remember them all, like, downplaying it. And the adults, you know, like, oh, no, no, no. A little too much to drink. And really downplaying it to the point where I was like, maybe I'm not. Maybe that was just a really weird thing that I did. So I just had, like, five months of that questioning, like, am I really an alcoholic? Until May 26th, to be exact. That was kind of the stopping point right there.

Luke Burbank (19:40)

So that time, the second time, that there was again, kind of a. And it sounds like the first thing wasn't so much an intervention, almost like a reverse intervention. You were trying to tell everyone else, hey, I got a problem with this. And then the second time, it was everyone else saying, hey, it seems like there's a problem with this. And that second time, did you just kind of feel in your heart like, okay, I'm done?

Susie Burbank (20:02)

Well, what happened was I was in the habit at this point of buying port, you know, and just, like, hiding it in the trunk of the car, you know. Cause my husband had his truck, and I had my car. But I picked up my youngest daughter, who was working at a little consignment store around here, and took her to a nail place to have her nails done. Cause she was begging me. And so I took her. And then when she was in the nail place, I remembered I had this, like, bottle of port that was still in the trunk that was, like, partly drank. So I thought, I gotta get rid of that. So I guzzled that port. And then, I mean, I was beside myself with, you know, with the reaction from it. And I just remember going into the nail place to go to the bathroom and leaving my keys on the counter. And it was just. It was so scary because I didn't remember doing that. Of course, I'm in, like, blackout. And I come back out to the car, and as I pass through, my daughter says, I'm almost done. You know, my nails are drying and all this. So I go back out to the car, and I'm looking for the keys. She comes out, and I have the glove box open. Spilled out all the stuff. And I'm looking in my purse, same thing all opened up, couldn't find those keys. And I was just beside myself looking for the keys. And Even my daughter said, mom, what is wrong? And my husband happened to be in a movie with the two youngest boys, so she was really scared that I was going to find those keys and try to drive home, which was only about 4 miles, but still. So that's when really it came down to it. And my intention was to finish off the bottle of port, but just toss it, toss the evidence, you know. But that really scary because then my husband did show up after she had the police come, or the sheriffs, and they all kind of came at the same time, the movie was over and so on, and she got a hold of them, but it all kind of. The whole crowd was there. And I remember the sheriff saying, if those keys were in the ignition, we would be giving your wife a DUI right now. But I hadn't been able to find the keys. And the gal from the nail place came running out with these keys jingling. And that saved me from dui. It really did.

Luke Burbank (22:18)

Yeah. So then when you actually went to your first AA meeting, was that intimidating for you? Was it a relief? What did that feel like for you?

Susie Burbank (22:26)

No, I was really scared because I felt really vulnerable and very alone. And there was a gal in our church that was going to meet me there at the hall, which I was glad of, that I found some comrade in the church, you know, I didn't really know her, but I remember parking and going into the meeting, and I was just petrified because I didn't really know at that point, life without alcohol. And I was, like, so afraid of what it was going to look like.

Luke Burbank (22:59)

And how important has AA been? Or was AA to your sobriety?

Susie Burbank (23:06)

Oh, it was vital, you know, this was a whole new group of people that understood what alcohol could do to me, you know, or to them. I mean, it was like we understood. And other than that, we had nothing in common, you know, it was just like there were people of all ages, but a lot of people that were, quote, worse off than me. But you see that, okay, you have to look at, at least in my case, alcohol as, like, you're allergic to it. Because I couldn't just think at that point. After going to a few meetings, I understood. I couldn't just think, you know what, I'll just lay off for a while, or I'll just really. No, it was like an allergy. So once I had a drink, like they say, all bets were off. So that realization was a little bit, I don't know, unnerving at first, but it really began to sink in. And I met Some of the most wonderful people I'll ever know in those halls of aa.

Luke Burbank (24:05)

Have you had any close calls? Have you had any kind of moments in your almost 20 years of sobriety where you've forgotten that, that you're allergic to it?

Susie Burbank (24:16)

Actually, no. Which is really interesting because I have a super addictive personality. I'll be watching a series on Netflix and I'll just prop my eyelids open, you know, to watch every single episode until it's over. So I have that tendency to be that way. But I was a little nervous about like, you know, occasions like a wedding or toasting or. But it really sunk in pretty quickly that life without it was very doable because I had done it for several years and life really had a lot of up times to it. And if I felt low or I felt depressed, there was other things I could do besides drink alcohol.

Luke Burbank (25:00)

How much of a factor in your recovery was the fact that dad was very happy to just not drink anymore? Not that he was ever a heavy drinker, but he was very happy to just be a non drinker so that it would support you. Had he been somebody who was like, I really still want to have my beer every night, what would that have been like for you?

Susie Burbank (25:17)

Oh, that would have just been a deal breaker. I know it because of my tendency to be that way. And I don't know if he was so much happy, but he's a very loyal person. So he was like, hey, if you can't drink, hun, if you aren't drinking anymore, I'm not drinking anymore. Because he's what we call a normie, you know, so he could really take it or leave it. And he did enjoy his glass of wine at dinner time, but it was something that it didn't have a grip on him.

Luke Burbank (25:45)

So then when you became aware that you had a problem with alcohol, did you then at some point start to be concerned or have you been concerned about your kids relationship with alcohol specifically? Like me, as somebody who has at times been a pretty heavy drinker?

Susie Burbank (26:00)

Yes, definitely. But you know, when your kids get to be a certain age, they're adults and so all the worrying in the world isn't gonna make a difference until they realize if they indeed have a problem. And like they say in aa, there's some things I used to think were pretty harsh, it's not my business, keep my side of the street clean, you know, sweet. And when it came to my kids, it was harder because of course I love them with all my heart and soul, but that wasn't my role anymore as a mother to like worry about them and just, you know, pray for them if there was concerning things, and it was things other than alcohol, but not like get in their business, you know.

Luke Burbank (26:40)

Sure. But I guess also it's sort of like there's a lot of kids in the family. And I would say generally when it comes to the topic of alcohol, which is what this podcast series is about, I feel like most of my siblings have a very, very casual relationship with alcohol. Like, are not really heavy drinkers. And I think that's also probably related to their biology being different than mine. They're technically speaking, half siblings. And they've also got dads, you know, Walt's genetics. And he's the person who's had no problem kind of having a beer or never having a beer. I'm so directly related to you and the Kellys and this sort of family history and the biology on my father's side. I just wonder like, do you feel. Have you worried that I'm sometimes maybe too much of a chip off the old block?

Susie Burbank (27:29)

Yeah, I think so. Because, yeah, Luke and I are so. We're so much alike, you know. But with my dad, I'm getting back to my dad here, that I remember an incident when I was back in Philly as a single mom for, you know, half a year or whatever, and I came to my parents house, my dad and my stepmoms, to do some laundry. And it was early in the morning cause I had things to do and I had a little apartment but didn't have, you know, washer and dryer. And I came over there and my dad was already in the basement where the washer and dryer was, and with a shot glass of, you know, of whiskey and a beer. And I remember saying to him, dad, it's 8:30 in the morning or 9 in the morning. And he said, sue, come here. And I went over to him and he said, I want you to touch my chest. And it was just quivering. He said, I have to have it. And that was like there was nothing I could do to help him in any way. And I felt that this is before my whole experience with, you know, alcoholism to the extent that it got. But I didn't know anything about AA or resources to help. And I'm so grateful that there are resources and places that people could. And even Thanksgiving weekend and Christmas, they have these alcathons. So anybody who's struggling with, you know, being at places with their family where there's a lot of alcohol, they can come there and they, you know, pretty much 247 will have support. But it's a really beautiful thing for people that need that kind of support. And I wish I'd had that knowledge from my dad, because I think it was around, but I just didn't know about AA or anything like that.

Luke Burbank (29:08)

Well, I just want to say, mom, that I'm, like, so proud of you and your sobriety. I knew this might be kind of an emotional part just because, like, I don't think. I really. I think when you got sober and in the, you know, the many years that you've been sober up until recently, when I've kind of, like, struggled with things at times, I don't think that I had an awareness of, like, what an accomplishment it is. I'm really proud of you.

Susie Burbank (29:41)

Thanks, Luke. I love you.

Luke Burbank (29:45)

I love you. This podcast isn't a hit. I don't know what else to do. I mean, can I get more emotionally raw? I can say this, though. I am very, very proud of my mom and anyone else who makes the decision to be sober and actually sticks with it. It's a really, really amazing accomplishment. And I know as somebody who's failed at that more than once, there are also, of course, a lot of people, a whole world of them, who have not made that choice and are pretty committed to the lifestyle of drinking and frequently in large doses. And that is where we are going for the next episode of Damp January. We're gonna talk to Shaughnessy Bishop Stahl. He says that he has discovered the actual, real cure for the hangover and also why that might not be such a great thing for him.

Susie Burbank (30:48)

And I remember at some point waking up in the middle of the desert and there were lizards that were licking the last bits of moisture from my eyeballs.

Luke Burbank (31:01)

So that's the plan for the next episode of Damp January. We hope that you will go and download it and listen and join us for. For all of that. Damp January is a project of Livewire Radio, written and hosted by me, Luke Burbank. Laura Haddon is our executive producer, and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Hazik. Bin Ahmed Farid and Trey Hester lovingly mixed the show, while Ashley park served as our production fellow. Our theme music, composed by Benjamin Kleek. Also, a special thanks to Livewire's executive director, Heather D. Michel, and the whole team over at PRX for their guidance. Also thanks to Andrew Walsh and the Sasquatch Music Festival, as well as NPR for the archival material. Hey, if you want to get in touch with us. Like, if you just want to say hi or that you are loving the show or hating the show or you want to tell us about how it's going with you and drinking or not drinking, drinking, email us. The email address is dampjanivwireradio.org thank you so much for listening to this show. I've been doing radio and podcasting for a long time. It is probably the thing that I've been a part of that feels the most personal. But I really appreciate you taking a listen. We're gonna be right back here next week to get damp again. I don't know if we're gonna keep that, but I don't know. We're just trying things out. Have a good week, everybody. Hey there, Livewire listeners. Luke Burbank here. You know how a lot of people, like, ring in the new year with a cheers or a toast? That's pretty common. Well, something kind of special is happening here at Livewire this month. As we have entered 2025, we have launched a brand new limited podcast series. It's called Damp January. Throughout the month, we are going to be going on like a little journey to try to better understand our relationship with alcohol. And by that I mean my relationship with alcohol and also drinking culture at large. It's such a big part of our society and we wanted to find out more about sort of how it's working for people. We're going to talk to friends and family and cultural luminaries who are just at various points on the booze spectrum. By the way, just a practical heads up. You're gonna see the Livewire podcast logo change to something new. This is just for the month of January. Do not worry. The regular Livewire episodes that you know and love and crave are still gonna be in your feed every Friday. That's just gonna be alongside a Damp January episode that's gonna drop every Wednesday. We have never tried anything like this before, but I think it is a really interesting project. Like, if somebody else made this show, I would listen to it. Okay. But nobody else did. So we're making it and we hope it's interesting to you. It's called Damp January and it's every Wednesday in January.

Susie Burbank (34:38)

From prx.