Danzy Senna, Penny Lane, and Johnny Franco and His Real Brother Dom (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank: Danzy Senna, Penny Lane, and Johnny Franco and His Real Brother Dom (REBROADCAST)

Release Date: May 2, 2025
Host: Luke Burbank
Produced by: PRX
Description: Live Wire with Luke Burbank blends an eclectic mix of interviews with artists, musicians, writers, filmmakers, comedians, and cultural observers, offering a late-night radio experience filled with insightful discussions and entertaining segments.

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1. Introduction

Luke Burbank opens the episode by introducing the week's lineup, featuring award-winning author Danzy Senna discussing her novel Colored Television, filmmaker Penny Lane sharing her profound experience of donating a kidney to a stranger, and Brazilian rock and roll duo Johnny Franco and his real brother Dom performing their music.

Notable Quote:

"I want to let you know, they really are brothers."
— Luke Burbank [00:02]

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2. Best News: Ecological Renaissance on Lord Howe Island

Elana Passarello presents the "Best News" segment, highlighting the successful eradication of rodents from Lord Howe Island's cloud forest—a significant ecological achievement. The initiative led to the recovery of 30 plant species, the resurgence of the Lord Howe Island Woodhen, and the rediscovery of the once-thought extinct cyanor weevil.

Notable Quotes:

"That's gangbusters, more than they had anticipated and in such a short period of time."
— Elana Passarello [04:24]

"There's nothing weird about them. They just happen to do this one good thing."
— Danzy Senna [34:23]

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3. Interview with Danzy Senna: Exploring Colored Television

Danzy Senna delves into her latest novel, Colored Television, a dark comedy that examines love, ambition, and racial identity in Hollywood. The story follows Jane Gibson, a biracial novelist, and her husband Lenny, a visual artist, as they navigate the challenges of maintaining their artistic integrity while striving for success.

Key Discussion Points:

• Racial Identity and Capitalization: Jane grapples with leveraging her biracial identity to achieve success, contrasting with Lenny's commitment to pure abstraction in his art.

  Quote:

  "She's like, just paint some little figure that signifies blackness to sell to the white art world. And he refuses to."
  — Danzy Senna [12:14]

• Generational Perspectives: The novel critiques the "loving generation" of interracial couples by highlighting their struggles and divorces, countering the sentimental mythology of integration.

  Quote:

  "They're part of the hating generation because most of those couples... divorced."
  — Danzy Senna [19:20]

• Writing as a Horror Story: Jane's obsessive writing process leads to personal and familial neglect, illustrating the mental toll of creating art without external validation.

  Quote:

  "The horror of writing a novel... she feels like the little boy in the Shining."
  — Danzy Senna [16:15]

Notable Quote:

"There's really no other word that specifically describes people who are American, who are half black and half white, except the word mulatto."
— Danzy Senna [15:11]

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4. Sponsor Message

The episode acknowledges Up Up Books, a Portland-based bookstore supporting diverse authors and independent presses, encouraging listeners to visit their website for events and book selections.

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5. Audience Stories: Acts of Kindness

Elena Passarello shares heartwarming stories from listeners about the kindness they've received from strangers, emphasizing the show's theme of altruism and community support.

Notable Quotes:

"If you found somebody with unprotected books, I think I would take off my shirt and give it to them."
— Elena Passarello [26:18]

"That's just a space for Liz, a pretty native Pacific Northwest, shares this."
— Elana Passarello [27:38]

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6. Interview with Penny Lane: Confessions of a Good Samaritan

Filmmaker Penny Lane discusses her documentary, Confessions of a Good Samaritan, which chronicles her altruistic decision to donate a kidney to a stranger. She reflects on the societal perceptions of altruism, the psychological motivations behind such acts, and the neurological insights into empathy.

Key Discussion Points:

• Motivations for Altruism: Penny explores why only a small fraction of people engage in altruistic kidney donations despite the life-saving potential.

  Quote:

  "I think people are pretty good, and we help each other all the time, and we don't acknowledge that enough."
  — Penny Lane [34:23]

• Neuroscientific Insights: The film features research on altruistic donors' amygdalas, highlighting larger and more active regions associated with empathy contrary to the smaller, inactive amygdalas found in individuals with psychopathic traits.

  Quote:

  "It points to the diversity of our internal experiences."
  — Penny Lane [41:21]

• Challenges of Altruistic Donations: Penny candidly shares her fears and the emotional complexities of the donation process, emphasizing the vulnerability and commitment involved.

  Notable Quote:

  "I was very afraid that I was so afraid that I was like, have a panic attack and just fail."
  — Penny Lane [38:21]

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7. Musical Performance: Johnny Franco and His Real Brother Dom

The final segment features a lively performance by Brazilian rock and roll duo Johnny Franco and his real brother Dom. They engage in humorous banter about their band name's authenticity before performing their original song "We Used To Be Awesome," showcasing their unique blend of folk and ambient sounds.

Notable Quotes:

"You both look absolutely dapper as can be."
— Johnny Franco [46:18]

"We're getting older, baby, but we used to be awesome."
— Dom Franco [50:34]

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8. Conclusion and Credits

Luke Burbank wraps up the episode by thanking guests Danzy Senna, Penny Lane, and Johnny Franco and Dom, as well as acknowledging the production team and special supporters. He provides a sneak peek into next week's show, featuring interviews with Sachi Cole and Emma Ruth Rundle.

Notable Quote:

"We like to ask our audience a question... What is the kindest thing a stranger has done for you?"
— Luke Burbank [25:45]

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Key Takeaways

• Exploration of Racial Identity: Danzy Senna's Colored Television offers a critical look at how biracial individuals navigate and capitalize on their identities in creative industries.

• Altruism and Empathy: Penny Lane's documentary underscores the profound motivations and neurological underpinnings that drive individuals to perform selfless acts like organ donation.

• Community and Kindness: Audience stories and segments reinforce the importance of small acts of kindness in fostering a compassionate society.

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Notable Quotes Summary

• "How far would you go to achieve what you thought would equal happiness?"
  — Luke Burbank [00:02]

• "There's nothing weird about them. They just happen to do this one good thing."
  — Danzy Senna [34:23]

• "We used to be awesome."
  — Johnny Franco & Dom Franco [50:34]

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Listen to the full episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank on Livewire Radio to dive deeper into these conversations and enjoy the vibrant musical performances.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we are talking to award winning author Danzy Senna about her latest novel, Colored Television, which asks the question, how far would you go to achieve what you thought would equal happiness? And also, is it a good idea or maybe just depressing to house sit for a friend who has a way nicer house than you? Cause then eventually you gotta go back to your house. Also, award winning filmmaker Penny Lane will stop by to tell us what happened physically and emotionally when she decided to donate one of her kidneys to a complete stranger. And then we're going to hear some really fun, really good music from my new favorite band, Brazilian rock and roll troubadour's Johnny Franco and his real brother, Don. And I want to let you know, they really are brothers. We've got a great episode of Livewire coming your way this week. It all gets started right after this. Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally irresponsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in December of 2024. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show from prx.

[Elana Passarello]

It's Livewire.

[Danzy Senna]

This week.

[Elana Passarello]

Author Danzy Senna.

[Penny Lane]

I come from this country called interracial America. Like that is the culture of which I'm born. And so it informs the perspective of the characters. But the books are not necessarily about.

[Elana Passarello]

That filmmaker Penny Lane.

[Danzy Senna]

Basically, I made everyone uncomfortable at every stage. My friends, the medical professionals, even the kidney transplant professionals were like, what? What are you doing here?

[Elana Passarello]

With music from Johnny Franco and his real brother Dom and and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elana Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much. I'm Luke Burbank. That's my adopted sister, Elena Passarello. We have fabulous episode of Livewire in store for you this week. We are going to experience the entire range of human emotion and organ donation. First, though, we got to start things off with the best news we heard all week.

[Elana Passarello]

Best news.

[Luke Burbank]

This, of course, is our little reminder at the top of the show. There's good news out there in the world. If you're having trouble finding it. We have a whole team of people that look for it and send it to us and we tell you about it. Alaina, what's the best news you heard all week?

[Elana Passarello]

Well, Lucas Margaret Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay.

[Elana Passarello]

That's your middle name, right?

[Johnny Franco]

Yeah, sure.

[Luke Burbank]

Have you been looking at my birth certificate again?

[Elana Passarello]

Yeah. Have you ever heard of a cloud forest?

[Luke Burbank]

No, but, like, I had not heard those words until you just said them, and I already feel like that's where I want to live.

[Elana Passarello]

Oh, yeah. This seems like kind of an amazing place. It's a kind of an ecosystem that comes from this rare geological occasion when a mountain, it's usually like a dead volcano or something, springs up from the ocean. So there's all that moisture around the mountain, and it shoots up 800ft in the air, and then the temperature change causes this beautiful cloud to kind of hang over the peak of the mountain like snow.

[Luke Burbank]

Wow.

[Elana Passarello]

So if you're up on the mountain, you know, you're living in this sort of cloud wonderland. And that is what is happening at the gnarled, mossy cloud forest on Lord Howe island, which is in the Tasman Sea, sort of east of Australia. They got a cloud forest there, so.

[Luke Burbank]

It'S right around the corner. It's in the Tasman Sea.

[Elana Passarello]

Yeah. So humans didn't show up there until the whaling industry in the 18th century. And it was this island that kind of got to exist on its own, which happens a lot. And then at the top of Mount Gower, where the cloud forest is, it was kind of its own island because the altitude made it kind of isolated. There are species of bird and bug and plant there. You can't see them anywhere else in the world. But when humans showed up, they brought with them things like rodents and cats and pigs, and that really messed up the ecosystem. So there were, like, tons of extinctions in the 20th century on this little island. But five years ago, they started a $15 million initiative in the cloud forest to rid all of the island of its rodents.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay.

[Elana Passarello]

They successfully did that five years ago. And now scientists are starting to take stock of the effect of that work. And it is just gangbusters, more than they had anticipated and in such a short period of time. That's the best news for me. Not just that this change is happening, but it's happening really quickly. One of the scientists describes what's been going on in the past five years as an ecological renaissance. Let me give you some specifics. 30 species of plants have been listed now as in full recovery, including the little mountain palm, which only exists on the island. The providence petrel There is a wood hen called the Lord Howe Island Woodhen. There are only 30 of them left in the 1970s, and now there are so many of them on the island that you hear them day and night. They've become part of the sonic landscape of this ecosystem.

[Luke Burbank]

Incredible.

[Elana Passarello]

There's insects recovering their populations, like this weevil that had been thought to be extinct since 1916. For 100 years, they were like cyanar or weevil. But now that weevil has been located, it's back and it's on its way to thriving, there's still a lot of work to be done. There's a coral reef there that everyone's paying close attention to. But wow, right? What an amazing change. I mean, I haven't done anything in the past five years except for, like, you know, have to punch another hole in my belt.

[Luke Burbank]

Listen, I don't want to rat shame, but I think we all knew we didn't need more rats in the cloud forest.

[Elana Passarello]

No.

[Luke Burbank]

Now, from the cloud forest, Elena, to that moment, and we've all experienced it, when you'd like to be soaring in the clouds, but you are not because you are dealing with a flight delay and or cancellation. It's the kind of thing that unfortunately happens a lot these days, it seems. Well, a woman named Tanya Stamos was recently on a United Airlines flight from San Francisco to Houston, and there was a medical emergency on the plane and they had to land in New Mexico. So unfortunately, these passengers on this flight were now kind of stuck in New Mexico, and they were there for hours and hours and hours, and they, in fact, couldn't take off. Kept being one thing or another. And the pilot, who by the way, remains nameless, felt so bad for these United Airlines passengers that he personally went and bought 30 pizzas from a pizza place, brought them back to the airport, and just gave everyone pizza who were waiting for this flight indefinitely, interminably. And this is an interesting note in the article, it was 150 passengers or so. They point out that the pilot, for all his generosity, he waited till everyone had gotten their pizza before he fixed his plate of pizza.

[Elana Passarello]

It's like the oxygen mask. He waited till everyone.

[Luke Burbank]

What an amazing thing for this pilot to do. And then not even get named in the piece. Apparently, it really sort of raised everyone's spirits and they were able to take off. The reports are that the person with the medical emergency is doing all right, thankfully, and everybody got where they were going. But just like this moment, I mean, you know, I don't know why it is that sitting still in an aluminum tube, it's just like the most exhausting experience. Like it shouldn't be on paper, but it is. And then when you gotta wait extra long, it's just so soul crushing. So this pilot taking money out of his own wallet and time out of his own life to make everyone's day a little bit better there in Santa Fe, that is the best news that I heard all week.

[Penny Lane]

Foreign.

[Luke Burbank]

Let'S welcome our first guest on over to the program. She's the author of six books, including her latest, Colored Television, which is a brilliantly dark comedy about love, ambition and the sort of racial identity industrial complex that can be Hollywood. NPR calls the book funny, awkward and discomforting. That's also how my hosting style has been described by certain reviewers. This is Danzi Senna, who joined us as part of the Portland Book Festival at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen.

[Johnny Franco]

Dansey, welcome to Livewire.

[Penny Lane]

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

[Johnny Franco]

I was so excited when we found out you were going to be part of the Portland Book Festival and that you were going to come on livewire. And I thought this book was just really, really funny. It was insightful. But I heard somewhere that you had started writing it and then put it in a drawer. Why did you pull it back out of the drawer?

[Penny Lane]

Well, the reason I put it in the drawer was because my children were quarantined at home and there was no thinking about work for about a year and a half. But I had written about 100 pages and then the sort of world stopped And I pulled it out and I was like, is this still going to be funny? And I realized we sort of needed humor more than ever at that point. And Hollywood never the absurdity of Hollywood never grows old.

[Johnny Franco]

So you felt like it held up. Have you ever had the experience of writing something, whether it's just a note to yourself before falling asleep, or even something that got pages to it where you then re engage with it and go, ooh, this was not good.

[Penny Lane]

Well, I've had a strange experience of after the pandemic, I went back to my office and I hadn't been there in a long time and I found a list on my table. It was just a notepad and it just said bucket list. There was nothing else there.

[Johnny Franco]

This book is the story of Jane.

[Luke Burbank]

Gibson and her husband, Lenny.

[Johnny Franco]

Can you sort of describe them a little bit? Like, what are they sort of hoping for?

[Penny Lane]

So they're starving artists living in la and they've been committed to their art they met when they were younger and sort of had the romance of just being purist. She's a novelist. He's a visual artist. And they were not going to sell out. And now they're in their 40s and they have two children. And it looks a lot less cute to be poor and to be sort of not successful in their respective careers. But Lenny is still kind of enthralled with this idea of staying on the outside and being pure to his work. And she's ready to kind of cash in on her identity.

[Johnny Franco]

Right. And the sense I got, and you can tell me if I'm reading this correctly, it's sort of Jane, who is biracial, is more ready to engage with a certain kind of white culture potentially, or just culture at large to get to this dream version of their life than Lenny is.

[Penny Lane]

Yeah, she's, you know, her conflict. She's half black and half white like myself. But her conflict isn't between, you know, being mixed. It's about how to capitalize on this identity and how to get paid for it, essentially. So she goes to Hollywood to try to pitch the greatest biracial comedy of all time. And her husband, you know, she keeps that a secret from her husband, basically. Right.

[Johnny Franco]

Because Lenny's thing, as you write, is he, as a black artist, does not really feature black figures in his art. And Jane is like, you would really move some units if you did that.

[Penny Lane]

She's like, just paint some little figure that signifies blackness to sell to the white art world. And he refuses to. He's committed to abstraction. And she's like, we've got to get paid. Like, this isn't working. Yeah.

[Johnny Franco]

Yeah. We're talking to Dan Zsena about the book Colored Television. This is Livewire radio from prx. We're here this week as part of the Portland Book Festival. We've got to take a very quick break. We've got much more coming up in just a moment. Stay with us.

[Luke Burbank]

Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers, and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood, and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their website and grab a.

[Johnny Franco]

[e-mail] welcome back to Livewire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We are part of the Portland Book Festival. This week. We're at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, and we're talking to Danzie Senna about her latest book, Colored Television. You talk in the book about the trope of the tragic, and then you use a word that I don't think America needs me saying on the radio.

[Luke Burbank]

But it's a pretty charged word.

[Johnny Franco]

And I'm curious what what you're looking to say with the use of that word, which you do a lot in the book.

[Penny Lane]

Yeah, I love. I've used the word mulatto maybe 100 times in this novel. And then on my book tour, everyone's sort of thinking it's okay to use and I'm like, don't get your ass kicked.

[Johnny Franco]

Well, actually, you know, I want to. I'm curious about that. Like, how do you feel about people interviewing you, particularly white people using that word?

[Penny Lane]

I mean, it's a vintage racist word. Like, it's not the kind of word you get called in the playground anymore. And if they do call you that, then they probably have been reading some very old novels. So it's not like a high stakes situation for me. And it's a word that I use in group with my friends and go ahead and try to use it, see what happens.

[Johnny Franco]

I'm ok. I'm good. But what was the importance of using the word in the book? What are you looking to have the reader experience?

[Penny Lane]

There's really no other word that specifically describes people who are American, who are half black and half white, except the word mulatto. You know, these words like multiracial or biracial could describe any two mixes. So part of the embracing of it is the fact that we have never been named. We're not sort of part of the narrative. We've been cut out of the picture as a population, even though there are plenty of us in the Kardashian family in particular.

[Johnny Franco]

So we, yeah, the Kardashians and Carol Channing come up in the book. And I certainly, in the case of Carol Channing, didn't realize that she had a biracial background.

[Penny Lane]

Yes. And she didn't tell anyone. I mean, it was, you know, something that she hid consciously till she was in her 80s because she knew that she would not get the parts. So it's got a fraught history. And I like the word because it's filled with all that history. I mean, it's a really problematic word. And if you're writing things that are too safe, I think you miss some of that history.

[Johnny Franco]

One of the things that happens to Jane before she goes to Hollywood is she wants to write this really sweeping book about the. And I'll just keep using the technically wrong term for it biracial experience. And then it ends up growing and growing into something much larger and less sellable than she intended.

[Penny Lane]

Yeah, she writes a big man spreading novel. That's what she wants to write. And it's 10 years of writing about the mulatto in America. And, you know, she takes on too much and it destroys their finances and their children are neglected. And it's all in service of this novel that goes from the original plantation mixed race child all the way up to the present of Zoe Kravitz. And it's just too many years to take on and it almost destroys her entire sanity and life. And I was trying to get into the horror of writing a novel.

[Elana Passarello]

Yeah, it was horrific.

[Penny Lane]

Like the dark horror story of what it is to be a novelist and to not have any perspective left. You know, you bury yourself in these pages and you're alone. And she says she feels like the little boy in the Shining, like with her fingers talking to each other. And the sort of madness of writing a novel I wanted to get at. And so she thinks television writing is going to sort of cure her of all of this madness. And it's going to be collaborative and she's going to get to buy a home in Los Angeles in multicultural Mayberry, and they're going to have the bourgeois life and it's going to be sane and collaborative and easy. And it doesn't work out quite as she's hoped.

[Johnny Franco]

There's this moment when Jane's, I think, agent talking about this very sprawling book that's gotten out of control, says, I think the quote is, some books are just meant to be left in a drawer, which is just like devastating.

[Penny Lane]

The worst rejection letter ever. I wanted to write like it was a masochistic exercise writing that letter sort of to myself. And, you know, she does put the novel in the drawer and she keeps imagining it's like a body in the trunk. Like she can hear it thrashing around. It's almost dead, but it's not quite dead. So it was kind of really going into what it is to be an artist and to not get the sort of recognition of the world. And what do you continue to do this for? Why do we continue to do these sort of mad works of art that don't sell in particular, that don't give you the money?

[Johnny Franco]

We're talking to Danzi Senna about her book, Color television.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire.

[Johnny Franco]

We are coming to you as part of the Portland Book Festival this week. Your parents, your actual parents, were among the first generation of legal Interracial marriages. And that group of folks is sometimes referred to as like the loving generation because of the court ruling. But I think it's in the book, although sometimes I was writing these questions and I was going, is this Jane or is this Danzy? I think this is. Jane says she doesn't consider her parents to be part of the loving generation because of their relationship.

[Penny Lane]

She calls them part of the hating generation because most of those couples, along with most of the non interracial couples, divorced. If you were born as Gen x in the 70s, they were all the hating generation. So it's kind of like pushing against this mythology and sentimental mythology around integration and this black and white mix. And sort of at every point, she skewers these different fantasies about what it is to be mixed.

[Johnny Franco]

In the book, Jane sort of identifies. Gen X is definitely in the top two things she identifies as. It's like switches between her ethnicity and Gen Xness. Is that also how you feel? And if so, how does that show up in your life? Being profoundly Gen X?

[Penny Lane]

I'm profoundly Gen X. You know, first of all, being the child of an interracial couple, that was legal, but then also, you know, latchkey kid, feral child, just coming home when it got dark. Yes.

[Johnny Franco]

And no one knows where you are.

[Penny Lane]

Devil dogs in front of different strokes. And, you know, my parents, like my mother, smoked, chain smoked, and in the car with us all the time until we went to college. And then she went and stopped smoking, which feels like the ultimate. But she, at one point, Jane is a professor and she's noticing things about the different generations that she teaches. And she says with the millennial students, if they cancel you, you really have to worry because they will go and they will destroy your life. But the Gen Z students, if they get offended by something you say, usually they lose their attention span before they can fill out all the forms.

[Johnny Franco]

I read a review of the book that said this book has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with politics. What do you think of that statement?

[Penny Lane]

I mean, I think everything I write sort of takes on these questions of identity, which I think are considered political, but for me are deeply personal and are treated with a lot of irreverence. So maybe I'm undercutting any kind of earnestness in the writing of it, but they're typically loaded in the political sphere and especially right now.

[Johnny Franco]

I heard a different interview or saw an interview with you where they were responding to something you had said about people asking you because you've written a number of great works. And a lot of it has centered around the idea of being biracial. And basically, you said, people are still asking me, why am I writing about this? And you're like, nobody asks an Irish writer why they're still writing about Irish people.

[Penny Lane]

Yeah. No. And they don't ask any other race of people. They assume that they're gonna write from the geography that they come from, but they don't assume that I come from anywhere. And I come from this country called interracial America. Like, that is the culture of which I'm born. And so it informs the perspective of the characters. But the books are not necessarily about that.

[Johnny Franco]

Right. Well, that's one of the things.

[Luke Burbank]

Right.

[Johnny Franco]

So Jane does finally decide to go write TV and wants to write something that starts out fairly nuanced, like, there are people and they happen to be mixed race, but that's not the only thing about them. And then sort of gets caught up with this guy Hampton, who is. I don't want to give it away, but it doesn't really end exactly the way she's thinking.

[Penny Lane]

Yeah. I mean, he keeps telling her it needs to be more biracial, and she doesn't know what that really is. So she keeps sort of dancing for supper for this producer. And what is more biracial, like, which storyline is going to be biracial enough for him? And he just is never satisfied with her pitches. And so I keep. Like, I had so much fun writing these pitches.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, man, it's rough.

[Penny Lane]

But so much of the television world involves not writing. It involves these meetings. So I was kind of poking fun at the fact that there's almost no writing that happens in this novel. It's all meetings and notes.

[Johnny Franco]

Well, okay. On the subject of which, if I have this right, this book, you're in development to make this book into something for the screen?

[Penny Lane]

Yes.

[Johnny Franco]

And I'm just curious, like, you know, without giving too much away, it's not a great experience for Jane, and I'm wondering, like, will this be for you, potentially life imitating art imitating you being very pissed off?

[Penny Lane]

No. I'm hoping to continue this meta experience and then have someone exploit me, and it's all gonna just keep going forever.

[Johnny Franco]

And ever and ever. Well, we hope it does, because the book is really fun and really insightful. Dan Zsenna, thank you so much for coming on Livewire.

[Danzy Senna]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

That was author Danzy Senna right here on Livewire as part of the Portland Book Festival. Her latest novel, Colored Television, is available to read now. Hey, special thanks this episode to members TJ Milbrook of Portland, Oregon, and Kimi Nam of also Portland, Oregon. TJ And Kimmy are part of the Livewire member community. They're part of the League of Extraordinary Listeners. Maybe you've heard of them. They are generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we're grateful for that support because without it, we wouldn't be here. I can't overstress that enough. So we exist because of folks like Kimmy and TJ So a big thanks to them for keeping Livewire going. This is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Each week, we like to ask our audience a question kind of related to one of the topics from the show and inspired by the documentary that you're gonna hear about coming up from Penny Lane, where she sought to donate a kidney to a complete stranger. We asked the Livewire listeners, what is the kindest thing a stranger has done for you? Elena has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?

[Elana Passarello]

Here's one from Lily. Lily says, I was waiting in a long line with my 4 year old to get a hot dog, and as soon as I handed it to her, she dropped it. And so she has a meltdown. And then Lily says, a man handed me his own hot dog to give to her. He may have just been trying to make the screaming stop, but it was appreciated nonetheless.

[Luke Burbank]

That is very, very thoughtful. And also there's a whole range of how generous this person was potentially being if you were at a baseball game. Very generous.

[Elana Passarello]

Because that's a pricey hot dog.

[Luke Burbank]

Way pricey. It's like $20 hot dog if you're at Costco. Yeah, A dollar. Still a nice move. I'm just saying. All right, what's something else kind that somebody did for a Livewire listener?

[Elana Passarello]

Here's one from Sarah. Classic. I was waiting at the bus stop with a shopping bag full of new books, and it suddenly started pouring. And the person sitting at the stop next to me shared her umbrella. And then her bus came and. And she left it behind for me to use. So she's going off unumbrellaed into the great beyond.

[Luke Burbank]

Unbelievable.

[Elana Passarello]

If I saw somebody with unprotected books, I think I would probably like, I would take off my shirt and give it to them. Like, you can't let those things get.

[Luke Burbank]

Soggy, you know, I was thinking about the whole, like, Pacific Northwest umbrella culture. The other day I was going into Home Depot and it was storming and I had an umbrella and I realized I was very out of step with the typical clientele because there's a whole thing in the Northwest where people are very proud of not using umbrellas. And I have never understood that. As I was walking and maintaining my nice, comfortable, dry state of affairs and everyone else was like hunching to their cars as like the rain was going into the crack of their wherevers. I thought, I know that I look like a dandy here, but I don't care. I'm dry. Many judgment.

[Elana Passarello]

I have never understood that about the Pacific Northwest. And I'm glad that you, a pretty native Pacific Northwest, shares this. All right.

[Luke Burbank]

One more nice thing that somebody had done for them.

[Elana Passarello]

This is from Ashley. Ashley says, when I was little, I was wandering around loose in a Sur la table while my parents were doing something else. I accidentally knocked down a whole thing of ice cream scoopers with ceramic handles that were sitting on a high shelf and the pieces shattered everywhere. I was bawling my eyes out. But the staff told my parents they didn't have to pay for the damages. And then one of the employees gave me a piece of her peppermint bark. So it wasn't even like sur la table, like check out bait peppermint bark. It was like the snack of this kind employee, which is very, very sweet.

[Luke Burbank]

That first of all is very heartwarming because I'm 48 years old and I feel worried when I'm in a sur La table that I'm going to like break something. It's very nice, but it's very like it's for people that are gourmands and everything. I also think this is an amazing study of how as a child, even if they don't have ice cream at a place, you will find the thing that serves ice cream.

[Elana Passarello]

That's true.

[Luke Burbank]

You found the most fun kid related thing at a super high end kitchen supply store. All right, well everybody, let's take the lesson to be kind to each other. Thank you to everyone who was kind enough to send in a response for that. This is Livewire from prx A. Speaking of very kind gestures, let me ask you a question, Alaina. What do Kenny G. Satanists and Richard Nixon have in common?

[Elana Passarello]

I hope it has something to do with curly hair.

[Luke Burbank]

It's our next guest actually who has made award winning films about all of those subjects. Her latest project is titled Confessions of a Good Samaritan and it's a documentary that follows one person's journey of giving their kidney to a complete. Indiewire calls it a fascinating study of altruism. Penny Lane, by the way, is that person. It was her kidney that was being donated, and she joined us at the Patricia Research center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon, to talk about it. Take a listen. Penny, welcome to the show.

[Penny Lane]

Hello.

[Danzy Senna]

Hello, everybody.

[Luke Burbank]

I should say welcome back. We had you on during the pandemic to talk about your phenomenal film you made about Kenny G. I would say the film of record.

[Danzy Senna]

Yes. On the topic of Kenny G. That's the only one. Okay.

[Johnny Franco]

Still.

[Luke Burbank]

This is a really different movie. It's, I would say, a little more serious, but still has its light moments. I'm curious. When did the thought first occur to you to donate a kidney from your body to someone that you would never meet?

[Danzy Senna]

I think it was probably around 2017, I hear about it, I think, on a podcast, I want to say, but I can't remember exactly which one. It just. I learned that there were people who did this, and I wanted to be one of them. And then it took me a few years to actually make it happen.

[Luke Burbank]

Were you expecting a certain kind of reaction from the transplant folks? Like, after you got through to someone and you said, I'm going to do this very altruistic thing?

[Danzy Senna]

Yeah. I don't really know what I was picturing, but on some level, I did think it would be kind of special. Like, you know, there'd be some special red carpet treatment or something.

[Luke Burbank]

The word. The word hero would be tossed around.

[Danzy Senna]

Liberally, maybe like a couple standing O's, you know, casual. But none of those things happened. It basically, if you decide to give your kidney to anyone and you enter the medical system, it's just like any other medical procedure. There's a lot of paperwork and testing, and it's not the most exciting experience.

[Luke Burbank]

They did not come up to you with tears in their eyes.

[Danzy Senna]

I came up to them with tears in my eyes. But they were uncomfortable about that. Basically. I made everyone uncomfortable at every stage. My friends, the medical professionals, even the kidney transplant professionals were like, what. What are you doing here?

[Luke Burbank]

Was that because you had a film crew in tow? Was that making people feel weird?

[Danzy Senna]

The film crew came a little later. So I began the process of the intake at Langone. And then a few months into it, as the date of my surgery was getting closer, I was like, I might have to film this. And I really kind of resisted it for a long time because, well, I just didn't want to make a film about it. I mean, but it just became like. It just became this thing where I was like, this is what I do. I make these films. And I was very intrigued by and confused by the experience, and so I thought there could be something rich there artistically. So eventually we picked up the cameras, and they let us film in the hospital, too.

[Luke Burbank]

Were you worried that it would look like you were doing this as some sort of gonzo journalism project?

[Danzy Senna]

Totally, totally. Totally, Totally. And that was probably my biggest fear about, like, what the misperception would be that it was like, Penny had an idea for a movie that might get into Sundance or something, you know?

[Luke Burbank]

Did it get into Sundance?

[Danzy Senna]

No, it didn't. So even if I didn't, what do.

[Luke Burbank]

You got to give a kidney to get into Sundance?

[Danzy Senna]

Really? I mean. Yeah. What do I need to do?

[Penny Lane]

Jeez.

[Danzy Senna]

Didn't get in anyway, so. No. So it did occur to me that people would think either that the whole thing was about kind of attention seeking, which is something that I think people do suspect about what we call altruistic kidney donors, that somehow they're like narcissists in disguise and they're just looking for attention. And I will tell you that if you are a narcissist and you are looking for attention, this is a bad way to do it, because people get really uncomfortable when you bring it up. They don't, like, if. If I make, like, a Facebook post. Yes. I'm old. I'm on Facebook. If I say, like, I got a Guggenheim fellowship, I'll get, like, 10,000 likes. And if I say I'm donating my kitty to a stranger, I get five and a bunch of, like, unfollows. So it's not, like, a way to get, like, clout. Clout, yes. No standing O's. No. Clout, no Sundance. What's in it for me?

[Elana Passarello]

Why do you think people are chillier about this than they are about winning a major award?

[Danzy Senna]

Well, good question, because I think that we're very uncomfortable with altruists. I think I am, too. I think that our default position is, like, if someone does a good thing, there's some intellectual. For some of us, some intellectual part of you that wants to kind of tear them down or, like, be skeptical of it. What are you trying to compensate for? You know, that kind of thing? I think it's, for me, like, the whole spirit of the film was to make a statement that, like, actually, I think people are pretty good, and we help each other all the time, and we don't acknowledge that enough. And, you know, so there's this kind of, like, what makes the altruistic kidney donor special that's kind of like the MacGuffin that fuels the film. Like, what makes these weirdos weird? And ultimately, I think, like, there's nothing weird about them. They just happen to do this one good thing.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire from prx. We are talking to filmmaker Penny Lane about her latest project, Confessions of a Good Samaritan, where she donated a kidney, altruistically, as they say, to somebody that she would never meet. What is the current status of the waiting list for people who need this kind of kidney transplant?

[Danzy Senna]

So in the United states, there's about 100,000 people on the wait list. At any given time, most of those people will die while they're on that list. It's good that we have more and more people giving organs after they die, but for all kinds of bureaucratic and physiological reasons, it's quite difficult to get those organs, like from the deceased person to the person who needs them. So that's never really going to make a big dent in the list. Also, the rate of kidney disease keeps going up. That's the state of affairs. In any given year, there's about 20,000 transplants. 5,000 of those are living donors who give usually to someone they know. The other 15,000 are deceased donor organs. And then about 100 of them will do it for a stranger.

[Elana Passarello]

100.

[Danzy Senna]

About 100 a year. So it's a small group of people and it's only been going on for maybe 20 years.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Because, I mean, one of the things you point out in the film is that this wasn't medically possible until the invention of this one particular anti rejection drug, which then created this whole new issue which is now we can actually.

[Johnny Franco]

Do it, but where do we get the.

[Danzy Senna]

And now we have an organ shortage, something called an organ shortage, which didn't exist before we knew we could actually use organs in that way. So, yeah, the thing that's interesting in the history of organ transplantation is that it's very ethically fraught and very politically fraught, and it always has been. So one of the things you learn in the film is historically how those changes and our technological abilities have changed how we think about it ethically. So early on, when it was the case that only an identical twin could give their kidney to another identical twin because we hadn't worked out the immunosuppressant technology yet at that stage, you would think now, well, of course, of course that twin would like to give his kidney to save the life of his brother and we should allow him. But in fact, it was very controversial and many, many doctors Thought that was a huge mistake and shouldn't happen. So we've changed our ethical ideas about this over the last five, six decades. A lot.

[Luke Burbank]

It was very brave of you to have yourself filmed coming out of surgery. I do not want anyone recording me when I'm coming down off of those drugs. I have no idea the kind of. I might say.

[Danzy Senna]

I mean, same.

[Luke Burbank]

I'd say this. I'm conscious right now and not medicated, and this is what I sound like. I cannot imagine coming off of, like, a powerful, you know, anesthetic. Were you nervous about what you were going to say or how you were going to look coming out of the surgery?

[Danzy Senna]

I mean, you know, I definitely went into this with a bit of naivete. I'd never had major surgery, and so I didn't really know, like, how coming out of anesthesia can be so strange and emotional. I mean, so no spoilers here, but, I mean, I woke up sobbing. It was very intense. And actually, to be. To be honest, that footage was the footage that convinced me to make the film because, like, you know, I could argue about it all day. I could talk about it all day, but there's something about the image of my, like, light looks. It looks like a corpse, you know, like my, like, bloated corpse body, like, rolling down the hallway, waking up sobbing. You know, my face is all puffy. I look, like, dead, you know, and it was just sort of like such a strong image. Like, that image to me was like, oh, I think I didn't realize what a sacrifice this was until I saw the image. And most people would never see that image of themselves.

[Elana Passarello]

It's so beautiful because you're asking, did it work? Did it work? Did it go through with it? And it just shows that when you're that vulnerable because of the medication, it shows that the stakes were just sky high for you. Not, you know, the worry or the fear, but the fear that it would take, that it would work, that it.

[Danzy Senna]

Would be successful, or that I would back out? I was very afraid that I was so afraid that I would, like, have a panic attack and just fail. Oh, yeah. I was so scared.

[Elana Passarello]

Well, and that's something else that someone says in the documentary is 90% of the people that explore giving a kidney back out.

[Danzy Senna]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Did you get close to backing out at any point?

[Danzy Senna]

No. Never.

[Luke Burbank]

Really?

[Danzy Senna]

No. Particularly once the recipient had been identified and notified. That is a. A point of no return. Like, that's just etiquette.

[Elana Passarello]

I mean, that's just good manners.

[Johnny Franco]

That's just, you Were just raised right Home training.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Penny Lane about her latest film, Confessions of a Good Samaritan, following her journey of donating a kidney altruistically, meaning she didn't know the person who was the recipient. What does the amygdala kind of. How does amygdala factor into all of this?

[Danzy Senna]

So one of the things I learned early on in my research project, well, like, the research question of the film was like, am I weird? Why does it seem like. Why is it the case that, like, 100 people can be presented with this information like, you know, this many people are dying. Here's the risk of the surgery. Very minor risks. Safer all the time. And you could save someone's life by doing this. And the question I had was, like, why do such a small number of people say, well, heck, yeah, of course I want to do that. And then everyone else looks at them like they're not. And I was like, that's an interesting psychological question. Points at something. So I discovered that there was a neuroscientist named Abigail Marsh who's at Georgetown, and she has been studying the brains of altruistic kidney donors. Like, what luck for me. What? Like, I couldn't believe it. There aren't even that many of us. But she said that it was actually really easy to do these research studies because altruistic kidney donors are very conscientious and they respond to emails and show up on time. And so she was like, they all wanted to help. It was crazy. Like, usually it's really hard to find people for my studies. And so she was looking at the amygdala because she had studied the amygdala for 10 years in people with psychopathic traits. And the hypothesis is that people with psychopathic traits lack something that other people have. Call it empathy, call it caring, call it whatever, compassion. They also are notoriously very fearless. On average, people with psychopathic traits have smaller than average amygdalas. Like, they're small and they're not that active. When they're looking at images of people in distress, it doesn't seem to do anything to their brain. So her hypothesis was, well, would there be something like an antipsychopath, like an extra empathetic person? And she thought maybe this population would qualify. So she did the same study she did with the psychopaths with the altruists, and in fact discovered that on average, the altruistic kidney donors, amygdalas, were larger than average. Mine's enormous. Like, even amongst the kidney donors, I was like, way up there.

[Luke Burbank]

All right. Weird flex, but okay.

[Danzy Senna]

Weird flex. So anyway, so it doesn't. It's like, what does that mean? It's hard to say what that means. Like, it's too early in the world of, like, neurosciences to really know, but there is. It points to the diversity of our internal experiences. Like, we all assume that our internal experience is something like the people sitting next to us. And in fact, there's just a lot of different things going on in there that we all think are normal. And I tell you, like, I made this film because I wanted to interrogate myself. And I tried to be like, is there something else? Like, am I just looking for attention? Like, what is. You know, am I trying to, like, prove to myself that I'm a good person? I mean, all that's in the film. But ultimately, I think it's not that strange. Like, people truly do things for other people all the time with no expectation of. Of anything in return.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, Penny Lane, thank you for coming here and bragging about your oversized amygdala.

[Johnny Franco]

And your really great new film.

[Luke Burbank]

It's called Confessions of a Good Samaritan. Penny Lane, thanks for coming on Livewire. That was Penny Lane right here on Livewire. You can catch Penny's latest documentary, Confessions of a Good Samaritan. It is out now. This is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello. We need to take a very quick break. Don't go anywhere, because when we return, we are going to hear music from the Brazilian rock and roll troubadours Johnny Franco and his real brother, Dom. You do not want to miss this, so stick around for more. Livewire in a moment.

[Elana Passarello]

Foreign.

[Luke Burbank]

Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elana Passarello. It is that time again in the show where we play a little station location identification examination. This is where we quiz our esteemed and informed announcer Elena Passarello about somewhere in the US where LiveWire is on the radio. And she's gotta guess the place that I'm talking about. The Lewis and Clark expedition camped near this place in 1805 and 1806. And throughout history, the surrounding valley was home to potato farming. A gold rush. Yeah, I think the potatoes really gave it away. And at one point, it was part of the Oregon Territory, but now it's become part of another state. So I'm guessing you have a sense of the state.

[Elana Passarello]

Maybe that's gotta be Idaho.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes. Okay, you're in the right place. And you may be as close as you're going to get to this actual name. So I'm going to give you half a point.

[Dom Franco]

Okay?

[Luke Burbank]

Okay. Two famous residents of this place. Lillian Marie Disney, the wife of Walt Disney, and Chase Spencer, who played Sam Uli in the iconic Twilight series. Does that help?

[Elana Passarello]

No.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm giving it to you for getting the state of Idaho. It's Lapway, Idaho. L A P W A I Also home of the Nez Perce indigenous tribe. It's Lapway, Idaho, where we're on the radio on kiyefm. Lapway, Idaho, this is Livewire. Okay, before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of what we are doing on next week's show. We are gonna be talking to Sachi Cole. She's a senior writer at Slate and also the co host of the hit podcast Scamfluencers. Saatchi is also someone who really knows how to name a book. Her debut was the bestseller One Day We'll All Be Dead and None of this Will Matter, which covered, among other things, her marriage, as in when she got married. Now, her latest book of essays is called Sucker Punch and, well, yeah, it explores the end of that marriage. We're also gonna talk to musician Emma Ruth Rundle about her debut book of poetry. It's called the Bella Vista. She's gonna do something on the show I don't think we've ever had with poetry before. She brought her own vinyl record to accompany her poetry and it sounds really amazing. Emma's also a musician and is gonna play us a song, kind of a mix of, you know, folk and ambient. The New York Times calls her music patiently haunting. So really incredible show coming your way next week. Do not miss it. In the meantime, our musical guest this week started out in Sao Paulo, Brazil, before relocating right here to Portland, Oregon, which many, as you know, Elena, refer to as the Sao Paulo of Northwest Oregon. Striking similarities. They started out busking in various parks and they would busk for like hours and hours, like 10 hour busking sessions. Now they're playing all over the Pacific Northwest, including the Tree Fort Music Festival, Pickathon, and these days, right here on little old Livewire, Johnny Franco and his real brother Dom joined us on stage at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen.

[Dom Franco]

Hello, everybody.

[Johnny Franco]

You both look absolutely dapper as can be. I want to get one question out of the way very quickly and I'm sorry, I must get asked a lot, but the name of the band Johnny Franco and his real brother Dom. Was there a Question as to if you were really brothers at one point that you were looking to clarify.

[Luke Burbank]

Because I look at the two of.

[Johnny Franco]

You and I go, these guys are real brothers.

[G]

Well, you know, we're real brothers. We come from the same mother. And we just had to make sure because people are always actually meant to tell you the truth, Luke, when we started playing in Portland, it would just be, here's my brother Dom. And people would say, is he your real brother? And then so we, we just decided to add it on to the name to make it easier.

[Johnny Franco]

That's smart. That's just working smarter, not harder.

[G]

That's right. I told that to a six year old asked me that question. I told him this exact same answer. And he said, well, you made it worse.

[Johnny Franco]

I feel like that six year old is really gunning for my job.

[Elana Passarello]

Yeah.

[Johnny Franco]

Let's talk about this variety show that you're doing now. What exactly happens?

[G]

Well, so it's the Johnny Variety Franco show. And it is just the sum of our act. You know, we play so many shows that are different within one another. We play nine to 11 shows a week in Portland all the time. And so we're just everywhere. And most of the times you have to convey to the, to the situation, you know. But the, the variety show, we get a chance to do it ourselves and put on the show that we like to present to people. And we're putting it the next one at the Star Theater downtown Portland with the Gianni Variety Franco show, the Third Edition.

[Johnny Franco]

Wow. Third edition.

[G]

Yeah.

[Johnny Franco]

You were telling me, because I accosted you on the street earlier, that this variety show was sort of an outgrowth of a much more sort of personal thing where you were just like serenading people.

[G]

Yes, that's where it all started. In fact, I was pretty apprehensive about going on national radio because this show was molded to the city of Portland. Portland has shaped the act the way that it is today because we flew in, you know, and took it to the streets immediately. And for two years we were over there on Southwest 6 and Morrison, performing six hours a day, five days a week, and getting intimate with the city of Portland. And then the pandemic came and we just got an invitation to come and perform outside of somebody's window for their birthday and figured that would be a good service that we could provide to the city. And so we advertised it and turned out to be pretty good. And we delivered 200 serenades in 2020 alone. Yes.

[Johnny Franco]

Well, let's hear a song. What are you gonna play A song.

[G]

Inspired in real life. This one's called We Used To Be Awesome.

[Johnny Franco]

This is Johnny Franco and his real brother Dom on live.

[Dom Franco]

You should come see me one of these days When I'm not too tired or lonely. You should come see me one of these days Especially if it's just for coffee. We'll sacrifice time and talk about nothing at all. We'll go over the serious matter and better Will try not to bring up my days they're all spent in costume. We're getting older, baby, but we used to be awesome.

[Luke Burbank]

Do you remember?

[Dom Franco]

You should come see me one of these days. Come when I'm all tied up and showered. You should come see me one of these days. Would you come on the top of the hour? You know, we'll just sit outside and discuss every little raindrop that falls.

[G]

How about that?

[Luke Burbank]

Now.

[Dom Franco]

We'Ll go over the size of the flatter and better. We'll try not to bring up my shoes. Don't look now, they're talking to you. We're getting older, baby, but we used to be awesome. We'll go over this serious matter and better. We'll try not to bring up my face. Oh, don't do it to me, babe. I'm all red and blossom. We're getting older, baby, but we used to be awesome.

[Johnny Franco]

Oh no.

[G]

You should have seen us.

[Luke Burbank]

Johnny Franco and his real brother Dom. And that's going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Dan Z. Sena, Penny Lane and Johnny Franco and Israel Brothers.

[Elana Passarello]

Laura Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Bichell is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Eben Hoffer is our technical director, Leona Kinderman is our assistant technical director, and our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake, Ashley park is our production fellow, and Andrea Castro Martinez is our intern.

[Luke Burbank]

Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Eyal Alves and Awalker Spring, who all composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hofer and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid.

[Elana Passarello]

Additional funding provided by the City of Portland's Office of Arts and Culture. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members T.J. millbrook of Portland, Oregon, and Kimmy Nam of Portland, Oregon. Also, a very special thanks to the super cool Amanda Bullock and all the fine folks at the Portland Book Festival.

[Luke Burbank]

For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast at your convenience visit livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew, thank you for listening, and we will see you next week. Dear Livewire, when we first met, I was really shy. I had no idea we'd spend so much time together or that you'd be one to fill my heart with. With joy and make me want to be a better person. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were here. I was busy reading a review from one of our many, many rapturously smitten listeners. Oh, wait.

[Johnny Franco]

Actually, no.

[Luke Burbank]

Sorry. This is from Elena. Anyway, the point is, it would be really helpful if you wanted to leave us a review. Feel free to say really nice things about us, and we'll even read them now and then on the show so you might hear your review of Livewire read on the program itself. Reviews help other people hear about the show, and then we can keep doing this for a long, long time because we love having this job. Thank you so much. If you've left a review, and if you're about to leave a review, you can go ahead and do it right where you get the podcast.

[Penny Lane]

From prx.