Live Wire with Luke Burbank – Episode: Kelsey McKinney, Omar El Akkad, and Kawinka
Release Date: June 6, 2025
Host: Luke Burbank
Produced by: PRX

Introduction

In this episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank, host Luke Burbank engages with a trio of guests: writer and podcaster Kelsey McKinney, award-winning author Omar El Akkad, and the Seattle-based indie folk band Kawinka. The episode delves into the intricacies of gossip, the portrayal of violence in media, and features an uplifting musical performance.

Best News We Heard All Week

Elena Passarello ([01:23]) and Luke Burbank ([02:14]) open the show with a heartwarming segment highlighting positive news stories amidst a sea of negativity.

• Elena shares a story about artist Joshua Bonetta who placed a microphone high in a pine tree in upstate New York to capture its lifetime sounds. The result was a four-hour album akin to Vivaldi's Four Seasons, resonating deeply with listeners.

  "It's kind of like Vivaldi's Four Seasons... I think Eben has it queued up so you can hear what it sounds like." ([04:02])

• Luke recounts the tale of Valerie, a miniature dachshund who escaped during a camping trip on Kangaroo Island, Australia. After 500 days of uncertainty, Valerie was found thriving in the wild and safely returned to her owners, bringing immense joy to the couple.

  "Australian mini dachshunds being built different. That's the best news that I heard all week." ([06:00])

Interview with Kelsey McKinney

Guest: Kelsey McKinney
Topic: You Didn't Hear This From Me: Mostly True Notes on Gossip

Kelsey McKinney, co-creator of the podcast Normal Gossip and owner of Defector.com, discusses her latest book exploring the multifaceted nature of gossip.

Defining Gossip

Kelsey broadens the definition of gossip to include any two-person conversation about someone not present, ranging from celebrity news to private discussions between professionals.

"I'm using a really expansive definition of gossip, which is just two people talking about someone who isn't there." ([09:01])

Evolutionary Perspective

She references anthropologist Robin Dunbar's theory that gossip played a crucial role in human evolution by facilitating social bonding and survival strategies.

"Robin Dunbar... believes that the reason we developed language as a species was to gossip as a way to be like... who should we send on the hunt." ([10:32])

Gossip and AI

Kelsey experiments with ChatGPT to explore its ability to engage in gossip, revealing biases and the nuanced understanding of gossip within AI interpretations.

"ChatGPT was like, oh, actually, you're right. And I was like, oh, my God, thank you." ([11:34])

Gossip in Evangelical Christianity

She examines the stringent views on gossip within evangelical communities, highlighting the dichotomy between the sinful perception of gossip and its practical uses for accountability.

"Gossip is on par with adultery and murder, which is crazy." ([15:08])

Anonymity and Responsibility

Kelsey discusses the implications of anonymous gossip in digital platforms, stressing the importance of accountability and the dangers of misinformation.

"It lowers your credibility. People trust things when they have names attached to them more." ([20:27])

Personal Reflection

Embracing her reputation as the "go-to" person on gossip, Kelsey reflects on how being labeled a gossip aligns with her identity as a writer.

"Being a gossip is also being a writer, if you think about it." ([22:35])

Interview with Omar El Akkad

Guest: Omar El Akkad
Topic: One Day Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This

Omar El Akkad, renowned for his debut novel American War, discusses his latest nonfiction work focusing on the Gaza conflict and the role of language in media portrayal.

Origin of the Book Title

The book's title originated from a spontaneous tweet that resonated widely, leading to its expansion into a full-fledged publication.

"I was thinking of these patterns of how you can't really find too many people who will outwardly tell you that they were always against..." ([29:07])

Cultural Perspective

Omar shares his experiences growing up in Egypt and Qatar, providing insight into his critical view of Western society and the hidden labor that sustains it.

"I go to the grocery store here and I know how those vegetables got to the shelves, right? But it is a fundamental aspect of my existence here that I temporarily or permanently forget about..." ([32:25])

Language and Media

He critiques the sanitization of violence in media language, emphasizing how euphemisms like "collateral damage" dehumanize victims and obscure the reality of atrocities.

"To watch the unmaking of meaning... it is a direct line of consequence from buildings that mysteriously collapse and lives that mysteriously end." ([35:22])

Journalistic Responsibility

Omar calls for journalists to bridge the gap between unbiased storytelling and external pressures such as advertiser influence, advocating for integrity in reporting.

"Because that gap... is the definition of journalistic malpractice." ([39:46])

Personal Accountability

He acknowledges his own complicity in perpetuating systemic issues, urging individuals to confront their comfort zones and take responsibility for global injustices.

"I am that guy, right? I'm the guy who keeps his mouth shut at the dinner party because you don't want to make people uncomfortable." ([41:50])

Musical Performance by Kawinka

Closing the episode on an uplifting note, Kawinka delivers an energetic performance of their song "Living Room Floor." Their joyous folk-pop sound, characterized by multiple lead singers and harmonious instrumentation, captivates the audience.

Excerpt of Lyrics:

"You can be my girl on the living room floor... You can be my girl on the living room floor." ([48:20])

Closing Remarks

Host Luke Burbank thanks guests Kelsey McKinney and Omar El Akkad, and acknowledges the support from Livewire members Adria and Jeremy Kotka. He also previews the next week's episode featuring actor and filmmaker Bruce Campbell, comedian Sarah Schaeffer, and singer-songwriter Emmy Pop.

Notable Quotes:

• Kelsey McKinney ([09:01]): "I'm using a really expansive definition of gossip, which is just two people talking about someone who isn't there."

• Omar El Akkad ([35:22]): "To watch descriptions of Palestinian suffering in much of mainstream Western media is to watch language employed for the exact opposite of language's purpose."

Key Takeaways:

1. Redefining Gossip: Kelsey McKinney expands the traditional notion of gossip, exploring its social and evolutionary significance while challenging societal stigmas.

2. Language as a Tool of Control: Omar El Akkad highlights the deliberate manipulation of language in media to sanitize and obscure the harsh realities of conflict zones like Gaza.

3. Personal and Collective Responsibility: Both guests emphasize the importance of accountability—whether in personal conversations about others or in the broader context of global injustices.

4. Uplifting Creativity: The episode balances serious discussions with positive news and vibrant musical performances, exemplifying the eclectic nature of Live Wire.

For more insights and episodes, visit livewireradio.org.