Ken Jennings, Erica Berry, and Making Movies (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank

Episode: Ken Jennings, Erica Berry, and Making Movies (REBROADCAST)
Release Date: December 12, 2025
Original Recording: July 2023

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Episode Overview

This episode of Live Wire brings together witty, lively conversations with author, quiz-show legend, and Jeopardy! host Ken Jennings; author and essayist Erica Berry; and a live performance by genre-blending rock band Making Movies. The show, in its signature playful style, explores concepts of the afterlife, our relationship with fear and wolves, and celebrates unexpected joys, both personal and cultural.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Segment 1: Good News Stories

(02:52–08:36)

• Dmitry Bondavenko’s Lost Art Notebook
  Elena Passarello shares a story about artist Dmitry Bondavenko, who lost his prized sketchbook while biking in Toronto. The notebook's return was orchestrated through neighborhood Facebook pages, thanks to Chris Ellam, a 75-year-old who found it.

  • Quote (Elena, 04:19):
    "Instead of just like leaving it on like the closest park bench, he took it home with him... he saw it on that Facebook page... They managed to broker a return and Chris Ellum asked for no reward."
  • Moral: Sometimes, communities come together for heartfelt recoveries.

• Hemingway Days & Lookalike Contest
  Luke Burbank recounts the annual Hemingway Days in Key West and the heartwarming story of 68-year-old Garrett Marshall, who won the Hemingway lookalike contest after 11 years on his actual birthday.

  • Quote (Luke, 06:19):
    "He is a Lucci no more because he has now actually won... He also says that he shares many characteristics with Ernest Hemingway... The one difference he points out is that he has only been married once, whereas Hemingway was married four times."

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Segment 2: Interview with Ken Jennings

(08:36–26:05)

Life as Jeopardy! Host and Author

• Ken reflects on adjusting to fame and his transition from contestant to host.
  • Quote (Ken, 08:46):
    "The great thing about being a contestant on Jeopardy! is you're cured of stage fright forever. Nothing else will be as terrifying as playing Jeopardy!... On TV it seems calm but those contestants are terrified."

On Writing “100 Places to See After You Die”

• Book's origin: Ken misread a travel book in the airport, sparking the idea.
  • Quote (Ken, 11:09):
    “I saw one of those ...‘things to do before you die’ bestsellers... and I thought it said ‘100 places to die before you see.’ And I thought, ’That’s actually ... a book idea.’ And I sold the book based on the title.”
• Ken explores how pop culture (like Mr. Spock or Mr. Hooper’s deaths) shaped his early understanding of mortality.
• Discussion of his upbringing in the LDS Church and how the Mormon afterlife is perceived as positive, as opposed to the hell-centered fears in evangelical Christianity.
  • Quote (Ken, 14:00):
    "Latter Day Saint theology, there's like multiple kingdoms you can go to. But they're all pretty good... Even the economy class one is better than here for sure."

On the Book’s Content

• The book covers mythologies, religions, books, movies, music, and theater depictions of the afterlife.
  • Maori mythology: The afterlife begins with a literal cliff dive.
  • Chinese mythology: In hell, you have to watch your loved ones forget you.
• CS Lewis and death in The Chronicles of Narnia.
  • Quote (Ken, 17:24):
    “The last Narnia book ends with ... the kids all just died in a train crash on earth... Aslan’s like, ‘Hey, don’t worry... you get to stay in Narnia forever.’”

Reflections on Hosting Jeopardy!

• Final Jeopardy! is the hardest: juggling numbers, TV drama, and contestant dynamics.

  • Quote (Ken, 22:16):
    "You're trying to be a referee and a play by play announcer and a narrator all at the same time."

• On contestant interviews:

  • Ken strives for warmth and camaraderie, contrasting with Alex Trebek’s more reserved demeanor.
  • Quote (Ken, 24:21):
    “... I remember having to do that and it's a tough ask for these people... And so I remember that and I feel like I actually have rapport with them. ... I think the fun of Alex was he did not care to convey that he cared at all.”

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Segment 3: Listeners’ Ideal Afterlife

(27:15–29:30)

Elena shares audience responses inspired by Ken’s book:

• Craig: Reunited with all his pets, who are friends now.
• Dennis: Hangs out with Prince and David Bowie.
• Diana: Spends time with youthful versions of her grandparents.
  • Quote (Elena, 28:02):
    “In Dennis’s afterlife, I get to hang out with Prince and David Bowie.”

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Segment 4: Interview with Erica Berry

(30:52–40:03)

The Story of OR106: Wolves as Prey and Predator

• Erica discusses her fascination with a poached Oregon wolf, OR106, and what the event signaled about humans’ relationships with wolves and fear.
  • Quote (Erica, 31:06):
    “… Wolves not as the predator that we’re sort of inherit stories around them, but as a sort of prey too and the slipperiness between those two roles.”

Wolves, Fear, and Human Narratives

• Explains her personal connection—studying wolves while caring for her ill mother led to seeing interconnectedness between humans and animal ecosystems.

Challenging the Notion of Wolves as Threat

• Wolf attacks on humans are extremely rare—statistically outnumbered by ladder falls, vending machines, and even cows.
  • Quote (Erica, 33:49):
    “I have a list of things that are statistically more likely to kill you than a wolf... Death by cow.”
• Tracing the origin of “wolf as villain” in language and myth.

Wolves and Livestock Tension

• Berry discusses empathy for livestock owners but notes wolves kill far fewer animals than other predators (e.g., cougars, bears).

On Living with Fear

• Erica relates the concept of “landscapes of fear” from ecology to her own experience after a frightening encounter in a new city and how studying fear’s ecology changed her perspective.
  • Quote (Erica, 36:16):
    “Learning about those sort of reactions helped me live beside it in a different way. Which in so many ways is like the project of growing older—it’s like learning to live beside your fear.”

Reading: The Legend of OR7, the Famed Traveling Wolf

• (Excerpt at 38:12) Erica reads about OR7 and how he achieved cult-like status across Oregon and California.
  • Quote (Erica, 39:26):
    “There was even a bumper sticker: OR7 for president... People wanted to be identified by their love of wolf.”

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Segment 5: Making Movies Live Performance

(46:25–53:11)

• Band Introduction:
  Luke introduces Making Movies, known for blending Latin rhythms with rock, and asks about their song “Porcelina,” which is dedicated to female mentors and counselors in their lives.
  • Quote (Band member, 46:40):
    “…this song is dedicated to the many women who have been counselors and mentors in our lives.”
• Performance:
  Highlights cultural fusion, energy, and a heartfelt dedication to their friend Shayla.
• Reaction (Luke, 53:11):
  “Thank you. That was Making Movies right here on Livewire. Their album SOPA is available right now.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ken Jennings (On Hosting Jeopardy!) [21:01]:
  “I'm an indoor kid, you know, like, the real me is me sitting in a library... going on TV is, you know, I get that out of my system.”
• Erica Berry (On Fear and Wolves) [36:16]:
  “Learning about those sort of reactions helped me live beside it in a different way. Which in so many ways is like the project of growing older—it’s like learning to live beside your fear.”
• Listener’s Afterlife (Elena Passarello, 27:15):
  “Craig's ideal afterlife is I am reunited with every pet I've ever had and I find out they're all friends with each other now.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Best News Stories: 02:52–08:36
• Ken Jennings Interview: 08:36–26:05
• Listener Responses—Ideal Afterlife: 27:15–29:30
• Erica Berry Interview: 30:52–40:03
• Making Movies Performance: 46:25–53:11

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Tone and Style

• Warm, witty, and quick-paced—with Luke and Elena keeping conversations fun but substantive.
• Guests engage thoughtfully and humorously; Ken Jennings in particular displays dry, self-deprecating humor.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This Live Wire installment delivers a delightful mix of clever banter, eye-opening perspectives on cultural myths about the afterlife and wolves, and soul-stirring live music. Whether you’re a Jeopardy! fan, nature writing enthusiast, or lover of eclectic bands, this episode offers a little something for everyone—anchored by heartfelt stories, good news, and vibrant personality.

Transcript

[Ken Jennings]

Hey, there.

[Luke Burbank]

Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we're gonna be talking to Ken Jennings, who you probably know as one of the hosts of Jeopardy. All he had to do to get the job was win the show 74 times in a row. Easy peasy. Ken is also a writer. His latest book is called 100 Places to See after your A Travel Guide to the Afterlife. Then, speaking of writers, we're also gonna talk to the writer, Erica, about wolves, both the ones that live in nature and the ones that live in our minds. Then we're gonna wrap things up with music from the incredible international rock and roll band making movies. This person is going to really enjoy this week's episode of Livewire. Who is you. Okay, that needed some work. Stick around. Anyway, okay, Livewire gets started right after this.

[Odoo Sponsor Voice]

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[Luke Burbank]

This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in July of 2023. We hope you like it. Now let's get to the show.

[Elena Passarello]

From prx, it's Livewire. This week, author and Jeopardy. Host Ken Jennings.

[Ken Jennings]

For me, the best thing about hosting Jeopardy. Is just how much I love Jeopardy. It was always my favorite thing as a kid, and now I feel like the kid that won the chocolate factory. You know, I. I get to hang out there. All the other hosts got sucked up.

[Elena Passarello]

The chocolate pipe or whatever, and writer Erica Berry.

[Erica Berry]

Part of the book is recognizing that I have a different wolf in my head that's like a shadow wolf than you might have. And I'm kind of interested in that.

[Elena Passarello]

With music from our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you so much, Elaina Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country to this week's Livewire. Of course, we have asked listeners a question based on ken Jennings book, 100 Places to See after your die. We've asked the listeners to describe their ideal afterlife, and we're going to hear those responses coming up in a Moment. First though, it's time for the best news we heard all week.

[Erica Berry]

Best news.

[Luke Burbank]

This is our little reminder at the top of the show. There's some good news happening out there in the world. We don't have a lot of time this week, Alaina, so hit me with your best news.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, it's good. This one's fast because it takes place on a rapid speed bike ride in Toronto, Canada, where an artist and painting teacher named Dmitry Bondavenko was biking. And he didn't even hear it when his prized 5 by 7 moleskine artist notebook fell out the back of his bag. He's had this thing for 10 years and he does his painting studies in it, so it's not, you know, mine. Moleskine is like, has like four sentences of a book and then like a grocery list. No, this is this gorgeous book. And he was pretty despondent, but he retraced his steps. He put up flyers, he called park services to no avail. As a last ditch effort, he put it on this flag Facebook site called Weird Toronto and that that got shared among all the neighborhoods that he traveled to on his long bike commute. And it ended up on a Facebook page called I am a Leslie Villain. And it's the Leslieville neighborhood of Toronto where a 75 year old cyclist named Chris Ellam saw the post. And he had found this book on the trail. And the minute he opened it, he knew it was something extremely special. It had these gorgeous portraits and stuff, still lifes had just this amazing work inside of it. So instead of just like leaving it on like the closest park bench, he took it home with him. He felt very uncomfortable, but then he saw it on that Facebook page. But then they had no idea how they were gonna get him back. In touch with Dimitri series of Facebook hands across Canada, things happened. They managed to broker a return and Chris Ellum asked for no reward. He was just so happy to be able to return it. But. But he did exercise his right as an elder to scold Demetri for not putting his name, address, phone number, email address, next of kin, in case of emergency, contact AirPod. You know, anything else you need for something that precious, but.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, that's a great story. I love that he got that back. The best news I heard this week is coming out of Key West, Florida, where they held their annual Hemingway Days celebration. This is a big deal down there. Of course. Hemingway lived in Key west for a lot of the 1930s and he wrote a lot of his best work, some people think while he was down there. And he used to hang out at a place called Sloppy Joe's Bar. And so this festival kind of everybody shows up at Sloppy Joe's Bar. They do like a fake running of the Bulls, which I believe was more in, like, Pamplona than it was in Key West.

[Elena Passarello]

But yeah, it's Hemingway adjacent.

[Luke Burbank]

Let's not get hung up in the details, but. But it turns out that not unlike Santa Claus, if you're a guy of a certain age at a certain, let's just say, body style, and you grow your beard out, you start to look weirdly like Hemingway pretty fast. So they've got this Hemingway lookalike contest and a guy named Garrett Marshall. He's a retired TV broadcast engineer from Madison, Wisconsin. For the last 11 years, he. He's been entering the Hemingway lookalike contest in Key West. Oh, wow. And he has not won. And this year, on his actual 68th birthday, he was declared the winner of the Hemingway lookalike contest.

[Elena Passarello]

He's the Susan Lucci of Hemingway lookalike contest. I'm dating myself with that reference. But, oh, my God.

[Luke Burbank]

Always nominated for those, like, Daytime Emmys, but never winning or something. Was her story.

[Elena Passarello]

Well, like 30 years.

[Luke Burbank]

He is a Lucci no more because he has now actually won. I don't know what changed, if his beard got more Hemingway esque, if his waistline did. I don't know what he did in year 11 that he wasn't doing in the previous 10 years, but he did manage to win on his birthday. So it's the best birthday he's ever had. This is like a big deal to this guy. He also says that he shares many characteristics with Ernest Hemingway. He also is a writer and he's written nonfiction and also short fiction. He says he loves fishing. He loves all the stuff that Hemingway loved. The one difference he points out is that he has only been married once, whereas Hemingway was married four times. He says, I only have one wife, but that doesn't matter because she's all I need, according to Garrett Marshall. So Congrats. There was 140 people entered the Hemingway lookalike contest. So this wasn't like a gimme. This wasn't just like a couple of. Couple of dudes with beards. This is like a serious thing that he won. So congratulations. A success down there at Hemingway Days. That's the best news that I heard this week. All right, let's get our first guest on over to the show this week. Now, he was living a quiet life in Salt Lake City as a software engineer in 2003 when he managed to get on a TV quiz show called Jeopardy. And 74 games and two and a half million dollars in winnings later, a trivia legend was born. In fact, these days, he's actually one of the hosts of Jeopardy. And when he's not doing that, he's hosting his podcast Omnibus with John Roderick. And he also writes hit books, including his latest, 100 Places to See after your Die, A Travel Guide to the afterlife. Take a listen to our conversation with Ken Jennings, recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland. Ken, welcome to the show.

[Ken Jennings]

Thanks for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

Are you at this point now getting used to this version of your life now as one of the hosts of Jeopardy. And as a person who is that much more recognizable?

[Ken Jennings]

It's been a bit of a bump, actually, and hopefully the last one. I mean, the great thing about being a contestant on Jeopardy. Is you're cured of stage fright forever. Like nothing else you ever do will be as terrifying as playing Jeopardy. Sure, on TV it seems very calm and pleasant, but like, those contestants are terrified. They are civilians, and they don't know what's about to happen to them.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, I mean, I want to talk about the book, but I think we have to also address a quirk of coincidence, which is our own Elena Passarello was a contestant on Jeopardy. Not long ago. While you were actually hosting, do you remember anything?

[Ken Jennings]

Oh, that's right. Yeah, that's.

[Luke Burbank]

I don't. I don't feel like you're going to be taking over the world of acting anytime soon.

[Ken Jennings]

Okay, look, there's like two a night. They all have a story about their banjo playing or whatever. It's all a blur. Except for you, of course, who really stands out.

[Elena Passarello]

But it was great. And you're not kidding. It was the most terrifying, strangest thing that I've ever done or probably will.

[Ken Jennings]

Ever do in hindsight. Is it a good memory? Did you have fun?

[Elena Passarello]

I did. I had a really good time.

[Ken Jennings]

You don't have to say that. Cause I'm here.

[Elena Passarello]

I'm gonna say something else. And then not just because you're here. Everybody felt better because you were there. There are like 30 of us or something. It felt like in the room and tape several episodes at a time. And you all get to know each other over the course of the day. Cause it's kind of a long day. We all felt at ease. Like in the breaks you'd like. I remember when that happened to me. But in general, it was so lovely.

[Ken Jennings]

Yeah, I don't think My memory is Alex, who is a lovely man, an amazing host. He didn't really go out of his way to make the contestants feel like they were his friends and guests. You know, he had kind of a level of remove. I don't want to say disdain, but a chilly kind of. You know, he was a little more unapproachable. And I just remember how terrifying it is to hold that buzzer. And I will go out of my way to say, listen, I just want all of you to know I'm on your side. I want you to look good. I want you to have fun. I think that's gonna be a better show. Cause I know it's very intense. And I hope that people do have fond memories. Cause you're putting yourself out there.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, it's terrifying.

[Ken Jennings]

It's like Internet dating, but worse. Cause like, 9 million elderly people are watching you.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Is it true, Ken, that this book came to you when you misread a different book in the airport?

[Ken Jennings]

I was in an airport bookseller, and I saw one of those many kind of things to do before you die bestsellers. But I was on the other side of the table, and it was upside down. And I thought it said 100 places to die before you see. And I thought, that's actually. I don't know what it is, but that's a book idea. And I sold the book based on the title.

[Luke Burbank]

So up to that point, when you misread that thing in the Hudson bookseller or whatever, did you have any sort of interest in the afterlife as far as, like, you know, the various different ways the afterlife is kind of speculated on and religiously and in pop culture and stuff. It was this Something that was a big topic in your brain.

[Ken Jennings]

Anyway, when you write a book, you always reverse engineer an origin story. And when I think back to my childhood, it was very much about how much of the universe I learned about through pop culture. Like, the first deaths I remember grappling with in my own life were not neighbors or grandparents. It was like Mr. Spock or Mr. Hooper from Sesame Street. I'm still a wreck from that one. I don't know about you guys.

[Luke Burbank]

This is the first time hearing about that.

[Ken Jennings]

Are you on the. Are you still on season eight?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, I was taping that.

[Ken Jennings]

It's on my DVR. Mr. Hooper dies. It's a drug shootout.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm wondering, because you grew up in the LDS Church, right? Yeah, and I grew up in a very evangelical kind of Christian environment. And I know in my life I was extremely afraid of Hell, as a young kid, it loomed very large in my life. I'm wondering for you as a kid growing up in that religion, were you afraid of going to hell? Did you assume you were going to heaven? How much did you think about it? As a kid?

[Ken Jennings]

I went to a very Protestant high school because my family moved overseas. And I'm kind of familiar with the kind of the evangelical treatment of hell. And as a motivator, shall we say it's a lake of fire? You don't want that, Luke.

[Luke Burbank]

No, no.

[Ken Jennings]

But that's not so at home in my own Mormon tradition, which is a much cozier kind of a. You're going to be with your family. It's going to be great. So maybe there's some of that in addition to my Gen X, like, you know, plumbing the great mysteries of life, you know, UFOs in Bermuda Triangle and what happens in the life to come, which was a big part of my childhood, I think there was also my Sunday school lessons where the afterlife kind of sounded great.

[Luke Burbank]

Do they de. Emphasize hell, or is it that you were such a good kid that you were not afraid? Because I was a very bad kid. My parents are actually here and they will testify. I was. I mean, I was giving God a lot of material to send me to the lake of fire.

[Ken Jennings]

They gave me a different set of scriptures. No, I think it was more that there's really no theological place for hell in. In Mormonism.

[Luke Burbank]

Really?

[Ken Jennings]

Yeah. Latter Day Saint theology, there's like multiple kingdoms you can go to. But they're all pretty good.

[Luke Burbank]

Really.

[Ken Jennings]

Like, even the economy class one, it's pretty good, right? It's better than here for sure. Not here in Portland.

[Luke Burbank]

Portland's lovely, but nothing could be better.

[Ken Jennings]

But this world.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, we have to take a quick break. We're talking to Ken Jennings. His latest book is 100 places to see after your Die. Stay with us. This is Livewire Radio. Back in a moment. Look, I'm not saying that I have a coffee problem, but I am definitely telling you that I am reaching for yet another cup of coffee. And if you know exactly where I'm coming from, let me tell you about Fetch Coffee Roasters right here in Portland. They're small batch women owned. And here is the kicker. Every bag that you buy sends a dollar to a dog in need. Think about it. Fetch Coffee Roaster. So basically, right now, your coffee addiction, you can consider that to be like philanthropy, which is amazing. They are right now roasting a special blend for Livewire. It's called Get Wired Plus They've got their great regular roast lineup like Muddy Paws and Zoomies. And if you want to get 15% off right now as a Livewire listener, all you got to do is use code Livewire. This is on your first order. Use the code [e-mail] Fetch coffee wagtails. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello. We're coming to you from the Alberta Rose Theater right here in Portland, Oregon this week. And we are talking to Ken Jennings, one of the hosts of Jeopardy, also the author of the new book 100 Places to See after your Die, A travel guide to the Afterlife. So you've kind of broken this book up into different, I guess, sections. Mythology, religion, books, movies, television, music and theater. All like the ways that these different art forms kind of address the idea. I'm curious. And the mythology category, what is one of the more like out there mythologies around the afterlife?

[Ken Jennings]

The Maori afterlife journey begins with a cliff dive. You literally go to a cliff and you jump off into the ocean. So like extreme sports, like from the get go, which sounds pretty great.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Ken Jennings]

There's an ancient Chinese tradition about hell that the worst thing that can happen to you is you can see what's going on back at home.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, man.

[Ken Jennings]

And it's not what you want. Like, everybody's forgotten you, Your spouse is remarried, your kids have a new stepdad, they're misspending their inheritance. That's the Chinese idea.

[Luke Burbank]

Really?

[Ken Jennings]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

In the part where you're talking about how books, certain books address the afterlife, you point out this thing that I hadn't really considered, which is like how hardcore CS Lewis is being by basically killing off all the kids in the Chronicles of Narnia.

[Ken Jennings]

I think you have to be a pretty Narnia super fan to know this, but the last Narnia book ends with all of the Lucy and Edmund and all the rest, they all get to go to heaven and stay in Narnia forever because they've all just died in a train crash back on Earth.

[Luke Burbank]

Really?

[Ken Jennings]

And this is just like a one sentence thing. Aslan's like, hey, don't worry. You and all your families just died in a train crash. You get to stay in Narnia forever. And they're like, yay, go look at the book. I'm not wrong about this.

[Luke Burbank]

The, like animated version of the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe that was released probably in like the late 70s, early 80s, I remember, haunts my nightscapes to this day, like the white witch and Mr. Tumnus. And just the actual rendering of them, very, very traumatizing.

[Ken Jennings]

I have a very fond memory of staying up late to watch that on TV as a kid. And I got preempted for a Sonics game, and I was furious.

[Luke Burbank]

I was furious.

[Ken Jennings]

In hindsight, I should have just watched the game, right?

[Luke Burbank]

I also thought, boy, Turkish Delight must be just the absolute great. And then I had someone, I was like, this is what all the hype is about. This is what you're selling your friends out for.

[Ken Jennings]

Dude, homeboy, the trade is siblings for the world's worst candy.

[Luke Burbank]

I know, right?

[Ken Jennings]

It would be like, do you want some snow caps? You want Mike and Ikes?

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, do you want some applets and cotlets?

[Elena Passarello]

Some marzipan?

[Ken Jennings]

That's what it is.

[Luke Burbank]

It's basically that, right?

[Ken Jennings]

It's basically applets and. Or cutlets.

[Luke Burbank]

You finally give the movie Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey its due in this book as far as their and that's of course, the sequel to Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. And it's maybe less focused on, but they go through the afterlife. What do you think is interesting or ambitious about how that movie handles it?

[Ken Jennings]

It's a great movie. Do we remember Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey?

[Elena Passarello]

Ye.

[Ken Jennings]

I feel like everybody remembers them beating death at Twister and the Rock Em Sock em Robots or whatever it is. But the visions of heaven and hell are great. Hell is full of traumatic memories from your life. So you get punished by your most awkward, cringy, traumatic, painful memories from life. There's no new tortures at all, right? And heaven is just an amazing kind of purple and green. You have to give some bit of wisdom to get in. And I think Bill and Ted say every rose has its thorn and that gets them in poison. Lyrics get you into heaven.

[Luke Burbank]

How was the research on this book? Because you've written a number of books and you put together, like, puzzles and things that appear in various publications. Where was this on the list of, like, intense research projects for you?

[Ken Jennings]

I just. For me, the research is the best part of writing a book. For one thing, it's not writing which authors love. Authors love not writing, let me tell you. But also, you get to sit in the library all day, which was very much bringing me back to my childhood. And it's like recess. I'm in the library.

[Luke Burbank]

I love it that we were both indoors during recess, but for very different reasons as kids. Yours was voluntary, mine was not.

[Ken Jennings]

So there Was a lot of just trying to find, you know, the old Buddhist sutras that describe the paradise the most vividly or have the weirdest details about Islamic hell or Jewish heaven or whatever it is. It was a lot of fun.

[Luke Burbank]

So for you, writing a book is not a comedown from being one of the hosts of Jeopardy. Where there's like a studio audience and millions of people are seeing you. And then writing a book is like hiding from your children, you know, going to the library, trying to get WI fi at the Starbucks or something. Do you enjoy the process of writing a book differently or less so, more so now that you have this other life as, like a TV personality?

[Ken Jennings]

I think I'm very much the second kind of person. Like, I'm an indoor kid, you know, like, the real me is me sitting in a library being like, oh, boy, let me. Let me see if I can find some more texts about the Inuit afterlife. You know, and going on TV is, you know, I get that out of my system. You know, it's nice to have an outlet for that. And, you know, it's. For me, the best thing about hosting Jeopardy. Is just how much I love Jeopardy. It was always my favorite thing as a kid. And now I. Now I feel like the kid that won the Chocolate Factory, you know, I. I get to hang out there. All the other hosts got sucked up the chocolate pipe or whatever.

[Elena Passarello]

And what is their afterlife like?

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, I was actually wondering about that because, like, you're somebody who liked the show Jeopardy. Got on the show Jeopardy. Set the record, and you're now the host. Do you ever wonder if you're dead and this is heaven?

[Ken Jennings]

I think it's clearly a simulation.

[Luke Burbank]

Like.

[Ken Jennings]

Like my life is 100% evidence that we're living in a simulation. This could not happen. I feel very lucky.

[Luke Burbank]

What are the parts of the job of hosting Jeopardy. That were more challenging than you were expecting when you went from being somebody who had played it a lot to somebody who's actually trying to run the game?

[Ken Jennings]

I was expecting it to be hard, and it was. Alex made it look easy, but it moves very fast, and it's a very intense process. You're trying to be a referee and a play by play announcer and a narrator all at the same time. The thing that surprised me with how hard it is, and I'm still not great at it, is Final Jeopardy. Like, you get a card that has the wagers and all the permutations on them, but it's full of numbers. It's like, here's what she Has. Here's what she'll have what she wagered. Here's what she'll have if she gets it right. Here's what she'll have if she gets it wrong. Here's what she had yesterday. Here's the total if she becomes a four day champion. So it's like a sudoku. You're looking at this card and you've got to figure out how to create TV drama out of this thing. And it's by far the hardest part of the show for me.

[Luke Burbank]

So. Harder than doing the interviews with the contestants, because now that's only hard on.

[Ken Jennings]

The audience, I think.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, in fact, there's an interview with you in the New Yorker that just came out recently where they said you've definitely made that much less awkward than it used to be. And I can attest as a viewer, like, you seem to have a pretty good handle on that because it's a very challenging thing, right? You're trying to do like 3:45 second interviews with people that are not on TV a lot and find a way to get out of each one. I mean, Alex Trebek's thing seemed to be to just go, I'm not gonna go there. Like, when in doubt, okay. It was always just kind of like.

[Ken Jennings]

Good for you, right?

[Luke Burbank]

Like, do you find yourself starting to develop some of these same little, like, in case of emergency, break glass?

[Ken Jennings]

Somebody told me that my good for you is. That's fantastic. You know, that's the upbeat Mormon version of good for you, I guess I'm Jimmy Osmond and that's fantastic.

[Luke Burbank]

What is the level of prep that you have for those interviews? Like, what do you know? Going in? Is somebody talking in your ear going like, get out, get out.

[Ken Jennings]

Eject. No, there's hardly. The host does wear an earpiece, but it gets used like twice a show.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, wow.

[Ken Jennings]

It's basically like one more clue and then go to commercial. And that's about all we use it for. The thing about the contestant interviews is I remember having to do that and it's a tough ask for these people who have, as you know, just have eight minutes of TV experience in many cases. And now it's like, hey, stop playing a trivia game and tell a funny story, right? Like, what is happening on this game show? And so I remember that and I feel like I actually have rapport with them. You know, I'm genuinely interested in the stories. You know, I want to know what happened. And I think the fun of Alex was he did not care to convey that he cared at all.

[Luke Burbank]

Right.

[Ken Jennings]

And that's kind of the beauty of his hosting.

[Luke Burbank]

One of the things though that I have to say I really loved about your run was no one had had to do that many guest interviews as the guest in history. So you just started to get really loose, like in about the 40s because you were like out of stories.

[Ken Jennings]

Probably right, I was out of stories on day three. Like, who here has like six amazing anecdotes about their life they want to tell on national tv? I think it's very rare. And luckily I realized quickly that nobody is fact checking these stories. Like, it's like, I didn't claim I had a purple Heart or anything, but like, if you tell Alex you were briefly a birthday clown in college, he's not gonna go online and try to try to figure. So occasionally I would say something like, you know, Alex would be like, ken, it says here you like airline food. What? And I'd be like, I know Alex, it's nuts. Just can't get enough of airline food. So a non stop story will work if told with confidence.

[Luke Burbank]

Ken Jennings, thank you so much. That was Ken Jennings right here on Livewire. His new book, 100 Places to See after your A Travel Guide to the Afterlife is available now and in perpetuity. Hey, special thanks this week to Kerry Timchuk of Beaverton, Oregon. Kerry is part of the Livewire member community and generously supports our show with a donation each month. And we are very thankful for that because it is how we are able to keep this whole thing going. So a big thanks to Carrie for supporting Livewire. This is Livewire from prx. Of course, each week on the show we ask our our listeners a question in honor of Ken Jennings book about the afterlife. We wanted to find out about the ideal afterlife of our listeners. We asked them to please describe that for us. Alaina has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?

[Elena Passarello]

Well, Craig has, I think my number one answer, Craig's ideal afterlife is I am reunited with every pet I've ever had and I find out that they're all friends with each other now. So you know, your childhood pet from decades ago and maybe your best friend that you just lost a little bit ago, turns out they like started a poker game together.

[Luke Burbank]

I've seen a painting of that actually. Right. And like, even pets that maybe didn't like each other when they lived together under the same roof, now they're all just like on a cloud playing harp next to each other, just chilling.

[Elena Passarello]

That is the number one perk of the Afterlife, as far as I'm concerned, is I get to see all of my beloved pets again.

[Luke Burbank]

What's another ideal afterlife that one of our listeners would like to visit?

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, this one's pretty good. Second only to pets is Dennis's idea. In Dennis's afterlife, I get to hang out with Prince and David Bowie.

[Luke Burbank]

Whoa.

[Elena Passarello]

I feel like one of them is a little more sociable than the other. I've always heard that David Bowie, especially in like the last 25, 30 years of his life, was like incredibly fun to hang out with and kind. And I think Prince may be a little shyer, a little more of an introvert.

[Luke Burbank]

That's what I've heard. I wonder if in heaven I will have more chill, because I would have zero chill if I was meeting, like on this astral plane. If I were to meet David Bowie and Prince, I would not be able to keep it together, them being two of my all time very favorite artists. But maybe in heaven we're all a little different and I can just hang out with them and not be weird.

[Elena Passarello]

Not be Chris Farley in that snl.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, one more ideal afterlife that one of our listeners wants to visit.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, this one is perfect. It's from Diana. In Diana's ideal afterlife, I get to hang out with the younger versions of my grandparents.

[Luke Burbank]

Whoa.

[Elena Passarello]

I would love Charlie Passarello, World War II vet and just all around handsome man was. He looked like a matinee idol in the 40s. And he was apparently a real trickster. And I would have loved to. I mean, he's still around. He's almost 99 years old. But I would love to, like, party with my grandfather in the 40s and 50s, like straight up beach blanket bingo party with him. It'd be so fun.

[Luke Burbank]

I have this one picture of my granddad, Jack Kelly of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, who I was like maybe two when he passed away. But it's a picture of him on the beach and he's got these Hawaiian shorts on. And I remember when I was younger, I thought he seemed, you know, like he was older or middle aged in the photo. He's probably like 30. He's probably like 17 years younger than I am now. But, like, first thing is, every year I look more and more like this guy. Like my face and head is kind of morphing into this kind of the look that he had. But also, I would love to have been down the seashore with Jack Kelly in that picture when he's got his Hawaiian shorts on. He's got my Grandma Flora with him. And they're just like having a time. All right. Our next guest's writing has appeared in the New York Times Magazine, the Guardian, and a bunch of other places. Her latest book, the Stories We Tell About Fear, Ferocity and Freedom, was called Exhilarating in the Washington Post. Vulture magazine calls it a powerful exploration of predators and their prey, delivered with an unflinching and vulnerable honesty. Here is Erica Berry, recorded in front of a live audience at the Holt center for the Performing Arts in Eugene, Oregon. Take a listen. Erica, welcome to the show.

[Erica Berry]

Thank you so much.

[Luke Burbank]

Let's start with OR106. Who was OR106 and why were you so fascinated with them?

[Erica Berry]

OR106 was found on the side of the road. And I first sort of heard about or106 when I was reading about the poaching of this wolf whose body was found after New Year's and shot by the side of the road. And so I open the book in this sort of crime scene way where I'm thinking about this body of a wolf that was, it was unsolved. And there's most of the poachings of wolves in Oregon are unsolved. And so part of this book is thinking about wolves not as the predator that we're sort of inherit stories around them, but as a sort of prey to and the slipperiness between those two roles.

[Luke Burbank]

Now, why do you think that that story of this, this wolf that people thought maybe had been hit by a car or something, but then it turned out it had been poached? Why did that capture you and your imagination? Was there something going on in your life? Like why, why do you think it became such a big deal in your mind?

[Erica Berry]

I became interested in real wolves and symbolic wolves around the same time. And it was when I was in my early 20s and wolves were repopulating Oregon home, my state, and I was interested in their position, I guess in the ecosystem had never occurred to me. I thought of them as like, this would be this nice thing to see on a hill. I like the idea of seeing a wolf. I had this sort of hiker mentality. My grandfather has a sheep farm. So I was aware of wolves as like a presence in that way, too. But my mom got really sick when I was in college and she had a really high fever that nobody could solve and she was hospitalized and it was all very dire. And at some point a doctor in there said, well, it's a tick related illness. And if we only had more wolves, the deer and the rodents would be A little more in check. And it was a throwaway comment made in the emergency room, but across the country, where I was worrying about her and also studying wolves academically from my environmental studies thesis. It was like something clicked that there was this relationship between my mother's body and my body and the wolf and the animal. And I suddenly saw myself as a part of this system. And so I, at the same time, was interested in this sort of symbolism of fear and this irrational fear game because I was grappling with fear in my own life, and a couple of experiences had happened that made me very aware of, say, Little Red Riding Hood and the sort of scaffolding that I was carrying through the world as a young woman. Those stories felt really poignant, too, and I wanted to kind of free the wolf from those stories.

[Luke Burbank]

I guess I hadn't thought until I read this book a lot about, like, what actual threat wolves might pose to people. But you write in the book it's very, very low. Like, extremely low. You write about a woman in Alaska who was killed by a wolf. But do you also write about how rare, like, how rare is it for something like that?

[Erica Berry]

Oh, my gosh. I have a list of things that are statistically more likely to kill you than a wolf. It's like falling off ladders, vending machines falling on you, death by cow. You know, there's this whole list of things that everyone should be fearing more than wolves.

[Luke Burbank]

And yet wolves, you know, we've been afraid of them since when? I mean, when did we start as humans becoming afraid of wolves? Probably irrationally.

[Erica Berry]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I tried to sort of, like, linguistically trace that and early Prussian, Iranian, Slavic words. The word for wolf and outlaw are the same. And at one point I started thinking, like, when did humans start projecting onto wolves this danger? It became apparent to me that if I went into this project thinking, I'm going to write about the wolf, sort of journalistically, scientifically, just look at the wolf as I see it. I felt like everyone was looking at the wolf through these, like, thick goggles that had many different lenses. Part of the book is recognizing that I have a different wolf in my head that's like a shadow wolf than you might have. And I'm kind of interested in that now.

[Luke Burbank]

You talk in the book a lot about the. The issue that a lot of people, particularly in the west, ranchers and farmers, have with wolves repopulating areas, and they see it as a real threat to their livestock and to their lifestyle. And on the one hand, I think the wolf is such a majestic and kind of solitary creature and we think of them and they're written very, I think warmly in the book and yet they can do some pretty devastating things to livestock. Does that move your needle at all? Like, I mean, do those people have any sort of point when they say maybe it's not great to have wolves in close proximity to a bunch of like, you know, cows?

[Erica Berry]

I mean, I think this was interesting too, because my grandfather having sheep, like I grew up with this awareness of like the lamb is in the bathtub because it was attacked by the coyote or it's being sewed back together. And so. But my grandfather was also a conservationist and an environmentalist and believed that there was a place for wolves in the ecosystem. Statistically, wolves kill not a large proportion of livestock compared to cougars, say, or bears. So I can really empathize in doing interviews with these livestock producers who feel so much care for what they're taking care of and their animals. That's real. And at the same time, people have been living beside wolves for thousands of years.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire radio from prx. We're talking to Erica Berry about her new book, Wolfish. When you started writing this book, would you have considered yourself to be a fearful person?

[Erica Berry]

I don't know that I would have when I. So I started this essentially 10 years ago for my undergraduate thesis project. And at that time I was just writing about the wolf as like the four legged thing. And then I got to graduate school a few years later. I was leaving a brewery right as I got there, I'm like very bright eyed and so excited to be living on my own in a big city for the first time. And I heard footsteps behind me and I sort of thought, you're probably making this up, there's nobody running after you. And I turned right as a man that I didn't know grabbed me and that experience rewired completely my experience of walking down the street. And I was interested in talking to a biologist who studies these ecologies of fear. It's called like this idea that we live in these landscapes of fear where there's like topographies of threat that animals are aware of in the ecosystem. And I started thinking about that in my own life and I was like, I'm not sure that I should be looking to the science in this way and extrapolating it, but my own topography of fear has changed. So I would say that learning about those sort of reactions helped me live beside it in a different way. Which in so many ways is like the project of growing older. It's like learning to live beside your fear.

[Luke Burbank]

Let's talk about OR seven a little bit. The big star of this book. Who was Or7 and why were people so captivated with him?

[Erica Berry]

So Or7 was the seventh wolf collared in Oregon and he left his pack in northeastern Oregon in 2011 and just started walking. And lots of wolves leave their packs and start walking. That's dispersal. Normal behavior. But OR seven was going further and farther and he was collared so he was trackable. And he became the first wolf in western Oregon and then the first wolf in California, and the hype grew. There was one headline that said he was the most famous wolf in the world.

[Luke Burbank]

On the subject of which can we hear a little reading from the book that kind of talks about some of the fame that OR7 enjoyed?

[Erica Berry]

Within a week or so of OR7's crossing into the state, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife created a Twitter account for him, sharing rough plot points of his journey while hiding his location. Their bio for wolf or 7 parentheses 2 year old wolf from Oregon left family to find wife and new home. Was joined by fan accounts too, mostly run anonymously. Bio Native Oregonian California tourist, grew up in troubled family hobbies, wandering ungulates. Facebook pages classified him as a public figure where fans came together to comment things like he is an amazing symbol of hope and strength and too cool. What a beaut. By mid January, the New York Times had published an article about the wolf's almost cult like status. They quoted a senior policy advisor for the CDFW who said random citizens were suddenly calling the office saying we should find him a girlfriend as soon as possible and let them just settle down. Others wanted to expunge humans from parts of the Golden State and revert the land to total wolf sanctuary. Quote, people are going to get wolf tattoos, wolf sweaters, wolf keychains, wolf hats, a board member for a California wolf advocacy organization told the Times. The National Enquirer wrote about or 7. There was even a bumper sticker or 7 for president. The swag made me think of a line about fandom from critic Michelle Orange's memoir, claiming and being identified with a love of this or that is integral to the pleasure, to the experience of loving it. People wanted to be identified by their love of wolf.

[Luke Burbank]

The book is wolfish. Erica Berry, everyone. That was Erica Berry right here on Livewire, recorded at the Holt center in Eugene, Oregon. Her book the Stories We Tell About Fear, Ferocity and Freedom is available now. I'M Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello, and you are listening to Livewire. We've got to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to going to hear some music from the truly fantastic international rock band Making movies. So don't go anywhere. Hey, it's your friend Luke reminding you, as if you didn't already know, that Livewire has sort of always been a show that does not really work out on paper. The math doesn't totally math, as they say. We're a weekly national broadcast. We do dozens of live events that are produced on a budget that is mostly held together by, like, duct tape and determination, I guess. So, as you have probably already heard, things are really tough out here in public radio, especially for shows like Livewire. Government arts fundings have been slashed. There are a lot of stations that can no longer pay for the show, and ticket sales and sponsorships are down across the entire industry. These are all the ways that we've been able to kind of balance our books over the years, and those are going away. We have somehow survived for two decades, basically by being too stubborn to quit, and we are not going to quit anytime soon. But we cannot do this alone. If you are hearing my voice right now, we need you to join us to make this radio show and this experience happens. Look, maybe you discovered a musician on Livewire that you weren't hearing on, like, the top 40 radio. Maybe you found, like, your next favorite book or author. Maybe you ugly laughed alone in your car or ugly cried. No judgment. Look, if this show has been there for you in any way, shape or form, we are asking you right now to help us build a version of Livewire that can't be defunded, can't be canceled, and can't disappear because budgets get tight, which is what we're in danger of having happen now. Right now, if you can join our fully charged [e-mail] fullycharged, you will help us keep the lights on and keep the weird, wonderful conversations that Livewire is known for flowing. So thank you so much for stepping up and doing your part to keep Livewire going. We can't do this without you. Welcome back to Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. I am pretty excited to play this round of Sly with you this week. I feel like you're gonna nail this one. Are you ready for a little station location identification examination? I think so. All right, this is where I quiz Elena about somewhere in the country where Livewire is on the radio. She's got to guess where I am talking about. Okay, so Johnny Cash wrote a song about the loggers from this town in 1960. The song is called Lumberjack Tall Timber. That kind of narrows it down to a quadrant of the country, I think.

[Elena Passarello]

Definitely not in Nevada for. Well, it could be in Nevada. It could be over by Reno and Lake Tahoe.

[Luke Burbank]

We can rule Nevada out.

[Elena Passarello]

Okay. I wonder if it's in our neck of the woods in the Pacific Northwest.

[Luke Burbank]

Just might be. How about this? The highest point in this town is Mount Nebo, which is actually a 1200 foot hill. It was known for its band of feral angora goats that were living there. And apparently residents of this place said they could predict the weather by watching where the goats were on the mountain.

[Elena Passarello]

I have no idea what this place is, but I am on my way. Once you tell me the name of.

[Luke Burbank]

This town, it's Roseburg, Oregon.

[Elena Passarello]

Hey, not far from me.

[Luke Burbank]

Fabulous. Where we're on KMPQ radio, which is part of Oregon Public Broadcasting. So shout out to everyone and all of the angora goats there in Roseburg.

[Elena Passarello]

Woo hoo.

[Luke Burbank]

This is livewire. Okay, before we get to our musical guest, a little preview of what we are doing next week on the show. It's actually gonna be something a little different. We are gonna spend most of the hour with the literary legend, the goat of magazine and book writing, Susan Orlean, you know, staff writer from the New Yorker, one of America's great nonfiction writers, probably the only writer to be portrayed by Meryl Streep, at least in the movie adaptation, which is loosely based on Susan's book, the Orchid Thief. Susan joined us for a very special event recently was part of the Portland Book Festival to talk about her career and also her latest book, which is Joy A Memoir, which truly was a joy to read. Susan was a joy to talk to as well. Of course, no episode of Livewire would be complete without some music. So that's why we're gonna welcome a song from one of Austin's most beloved singer songwriters, It's David Ramirez. So Susan Orlean and David Ramirez, next week on livewire. Do not miss it. Of course, no episode of Livewire would be complete without some music. So that's why we're gonna welcome a song from one of Austin's most beloved singer songwriters, It's David Ramirez. So Susan Orlean and David Ramirez, next week on livewire. Do not miss it. All right. This is LIVEWIRE from prx. NPR calls our musical guests. One of the most unique Groups around today Making Movies incorporates traditional Latin American instruments and sounds into their truly one of a kind style, creating American music, as they they say, with an asterisk because it represents all of the Americas. They've shared the stage with such artists as Arcade Fire, Los Lobos, Thievery Corporation, Rodrigo y Gabriela. Their fourth album, sopa, is available now. This is Making Movies recorded live on stage at Revolution hall in Portland, Oregon.

[Member of Making Movies]

Good evening.

[Luke Burbank]

Hello there. Welcome to the show.

[Member of Making Movies]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having us.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, what song are we gonna hear?

[Member of Making Movies]

It's a little song called Porcellina.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay. Is this off the new record?

[Member of Making Movies]

Yeah, it is off the new record.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, here we go. This is Making Movies on Livewire.

[Member of Making Movies]

I gotta say, this song is dedicated to the many women who have been counselors and mentors in our lives. Women seem a little more tapped into the divine. And coincidentally, one of the folks who we feel that way about is. Is here tonight. She moved from Chicago to Portland and she brought us dinner right now. So it's specially dedicated to Shayla, our dear friend.

[Elena Passarello]

All right.

[Member of Making Movies]

Baby. And she says.

[Luke Burbank]

An. Oh, yes. La.

[Ken Jennings]

La.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you. That was Making Movies right here on Livewire. Their album SOPA is available right now. That's going to do it for this week's episode of the show. A very, very big thanks to our guests Ken Jennings, Erica Berry and Making Movies.

[Elena Passarello]

Laura Haddon is our executive producer. Heather D. Michelle is our executive director, and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Eben Hoffer and Molly Pettit are our technical directors. And our house sound is by D. Neal Blake. Trey Hester is our assistant editor. Our house band is Ethan Fox, Tucker, Sam Tucker, Al Alves and Awalker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.

[Luke Burbank]

Additional funding provided by the James F. And Marian L. Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Carrie Timchuk of Beaverton, Oregon. For more information about the show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Hey, if you appreciate the work that Livewire is doing to amplify riveting and unexpected voices to a national audience, and I gotta tell you, it's a big audience these days, please, please, please consider offering some monthly support by becoming a member of our League of Extraordinary Listeners. Here's how it works. Membership starts at just five bucks a month and there are great perks at every level, including a special shout out on the broadcast. Impress your friends by being shouted out on Livewire. It means the world to us and really does make it possible for us to do the show. So please, if you can help, support us by visiting livewireradio.org Memberships.

[Elena Passarello]

From prx.