Lidia Yuknavitch, Felipe Torres Medina, and Pedro the Lion (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Live Wire with Luke Burbank

Episode: Lidia Yuknavitch, Felipe Torres Medina, and Pedro the Lion (Rebroadcast – originally recorded May 2025)
Release Date: March 13, 2026
Host: Luke Burbank
Platform: PRX

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Overview

This episode of Live Wire blends deeply personal storytelling, biting humor, and indie rock authenticity. Host Luke Burbank is joined by acclaimed author Lidia Yuknavitch discussing the nature of memory and grief, Emmy-nominated Colbert writer Felipe Torres Medina unpacking the absurdity of America’s immigration system through a humorous “choose your own adventure” format, and beloved indie artist Pedro the Lion (David Bazan), reflecting on faith, coming-of-age, and performing his latest song.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

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1. Opening & Best News of the Week

(04:20 – 10:03)

• Theme: Finding bright spots in the news amid tough times.

• Romance Novel Convention Gone Right (05:23)

  • Abby Jimenez, romance novelist, drew a massive crowd in Toronto—a fire alarm led to a swarm of attractive firefighters, sending the crowd into delighted chaos.
  • “Apparently Toronto firefighters can get it.” – Luke Burbank (07:07)

• Bookstore Community Uplift (08:02)

  • Serendipity Books in Chelsea, Michigan, moved to a new location with help from a community “book brigade”—people aged 6–91 passing over 9,000 books by hand.
  • “Any story about people and books and the books surviving these days is a huge W.” – Luke Burbank (10:03)

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2. Interview: Lidia Yuknavitch on “Reading the Waves”

(10:03 – 27:45)

Topic: Memory, Navigation of Grief, Storytelling Beyond Plot

Notable Insights

• Non-traditional Memoir:

  • “I think it’s more an exploration of memory and our relationship to memory and where you stand in relationship to the crap that’s happened to you… Can I stand in a different place? Can the story shift? And can I shift?”
    – Lidia Yuknavitch (11:36)

• Storytelling as Survival and Connection:

  • On writing about trauma:
    • “One mustn't kill the reader… Storytelling space lets you curate or choreograph so that we're going somewhere together. And yeah, it’s sad or difficult, but we’re holding hands.” — Lidia (13:25, 13:35)

• Power of the Periphery:

  • “Sometimes the rest of the story, or perhaps the heart of the story, is carried by image, by repetition, tiny intensities not captured fully from plot and action…What if the big dramatic thud action…is only carrying a small fraction of the story?” — Lidia (17:41–21:10)

• Death and Memory Language:

  • Lidia rejects euphemisms (“passed away”) for death:
    • “What pisses me off is how passive it is…You don’t fly away. You’re remembered in the bodies and hearts of people you were close to…When someone dies, it's part of what it means to be alive.” — Lidia (22:45)

• On Film Adaptation (“Chronology of Water”):

  • Kristen Stewart is adapting Lidia’s memoir to film, emphasizing experimental, image-driven narrative:
    • “She’s not making a biopic…she’s very interested in being faithful to the experimental quality of the narrative… She riffed off of my art, and whatever it is will be its own autonomous thing.” — Lidia (25:23, 27:08)

Memorable Moment

• Lidia describes her preference for small, periphery moments over dramatic plot:
  • “What if those tiny periphery flickers and moments…are holding part of the story? For me, they’re holding everything.” (21:10)

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3. Audience Q&A: “What’s More Complicated Than It Should Be?”

(29:52 – 32:36)

• College physics (“Why do I always have to assume gravity equals zero?” – 30:16)
• Navigating roundabouts (“People just keep going…”) – 31:12
• Troubleshooting printers (“It hasn’t gotten any better since the 90s.” – 32:12)

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4. Interview: Felipe Torres Medina on “America Let Me In: A Choose Your Immigration Story”

(32:36 – 44:43)

Topic: U.S. Immigration Absurdity, Humor as Resistance

Notable Insights

• Sitcoms as a Gateway:

  • Felipe dreamed of coming to the U.S. for comedy writing, fueled by shows like “30 Rock” and “Arrested Development.”
    • Hilarious misunderstanding over “30 Something” vs. “30 Rock.” (34:12)

• Choose-Your-Own-Adventure Format:

  • Developed as a way to map the branching absurdities of the immigration system—and inspired not only by the genre but also Julio Cortázar’s “Hopscotch.”
    • “I was tired of explaining the immigration process to very well meaning liberal and progressive Americans.” — Felipe (36:23)

• On Humor Versus Tragedy:

  • “Joy is a form of resistance. We all know that a lot of the things that they’re doing are illogical and absurd…lack of logic and absurdity is, to me, the seed of humor.” — Felipe (39:19)

• Difficulty Levels:

  • There is NO easy way to immigrate to the U.S.:
    • “If you pick the easy, it turns you to a page that says: incorrect, there is no easy way to move to the United States. Start again.” — Felipe (41:00)
  • Privilege—especially economic privilege—is the main way your path is less hard.

• Why Immigrate to the U.S.?:

  • “The idea of America is why people come here...immigrants make this country better because they believe in the idea. Like, we are so America-pilled, for real...We like America so much more than Americans who did absolutely nothing to be here other than be born.” — Felipe (43:16)

Memorable Moment

• “Humor’s a really, I think, fun way and non-preachy way to address things that you don’t know.” — Felipe (40:29)

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5. Music Segment: Pedro the Lion

(46:25 – 54:27)

Topic: Faith, Identity, Honesty in Songwriting

• Backstory:

  • Host Luke and Dave Bazan (Pedro the Lion) reminisce about their youth group days, where Dave was a worship leader and played secular songs reimagined for church.

• On Masking and Repression:

  • “What was happening was called masking, I’ve learned recently.” — Dave (49:37)
  • Dave reflects on shoving down his emotions and trauma as a teen, and processing them now through music.

• Audience Connection through Vulnerability:

  • “It’s a huge honor…even writing about it, I thought, ‘No one’s gonna connect with this; this is just my own trip,’ and then when you put out the song or record…you have people come up and say, ‘Oh, man, I felt lonely, too, in my transition from beliefs to, you know, belief to belief.’” — Dave (50:46)

• Performance: “Spend Time”**

  • “Spend time with the energy, spend time with the enemy…”
    (Live at Benaroya Hall, Seattle) (51:41–54:27)

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Memorable Quotes

• Lidia Yuknavitch:

  • “Don’t let anybody take your story from you. However, if you hold onto it so long… it might be time to consider standing in a different position to the crap that happened to you.” (12:03)
  • “I’m saying we should bring death into the story of being human.” (22:45)

• Felipe Torres Medina:

  • “I was tired of explaining the immigration process to very well meaning liberal and progressive Americans.” (36:23)
  • “Joy is a form of resistance.” (39:19)

• Pedro the Lion (Dave Bazan):

  • “What was happening was called masking, I’ve learned recently.” (49:37)
  • “You just have to be yourself, you know?” (51:22)

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Timestamps – Important Segments

• Best news stories: 05:00–10:03
• Lidia Yuknavitch interview: 10:03–27:45
• Audience Q&A: 29:52–32:36
• Felipe Torres Medina interview: 32:36–44:43
• Pedro the Lion interview & performance: 46:25–54:27

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Tone & Style

• Warm, witty, and deeply empathetic
• Deeply personal and confessional, especially in author and musician interviews
• Humanizing and vulnerable, yet often interrupted by wry humor and asides
• Socially conscious but accessible and hopeful

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Conclusion

This Live Wire episode gracefully joins stories of healing, absurd systems, and lived creative truth. Through laughter, raw honesty, and live music, the episode uplifts listeners and offers new ways to inhabit our stories—whether grief, bureaucracy, or belief.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host Luke Burbank. This week on the show we are talking to best selling author and self described beloved misfit Lidia Yukonovich about her new book, Reading the Waves. The way she describes it is it's more of an exploration of memory and she'll kind of expand on what exactly that means. Coming up then we're gonna hear from Colbert TV writer Felipe Torres Medina about his new book. It's called America Let Me A Choose youe Immigration Story. And it kind of peels back the layers of just how insanely complicated the US Immigration system is. And the whole thing is written in the style of a choose your own adventure kind of book which kind of adds a fun dimension to this otherwise unfun topic. And then finally we're gonna talk to Seattle indie rocker Dave Bazan, AKA Pedro the Lion, and we're gonna hear some music off of his latest album. That's all coming up on Livewire this week. Don't go anywhere. Get started right after this.

[B]

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[A]

This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in May of 2025. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show.

[D]

From prx, it's Livewire. This week. Author Lidia Yuknovich.

[E]

I think it's more an exploration of memory and our relationship to memories, memory and where you stand in relationship to the crap that's happened to you.

[D]

Writer and humorist Felipe Torres Medina.

[F]

We all know that a lot of the things that they're doing are illogical and absurd and lack of logic and absurdity is to me, the seed of humor.

[D]

With music from Pedro the Lion and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[A]

We've got an absolutely packed show for you this week. Of course. Look, we live in the world that you all live in. We know that times are tough out there when it comes to the news, but we like to think on this show that if you look hard enough, you can find some bright spots in the news. Sometimes you've got to use a telescope. Yes, it might be the James Webb telescope. It might be in another galaxy where the good news is. But we search for it, we find you a couple of those stories and we present them at the top of the show in a little segment we call the best News we heard all Week. All right, Elena, what is the best news that you heard all week?

[D]

Okay, Luke Burbank, have you ever read a romance novel before?

[A]

Well, yeah, of a sort. You know, back in the day when I was in school and there was that kind of roundabout of books in the back of the classroom.

[B]

Yes, Carousel.

[A]

Yeah. With some like Louis l' Amour and some lonesome Dove and the like on there. And I got caught up in a few of those bodice rippers.

[D]

Oh, well, this story's for you.

[A]

Oh, good. Okay.

[D]

So from what I understand, the romance novel fan base is pretty devoted and they turn out for their favorite authors. And one of their favorite authors is Abby Jimenez. She's the author of such steamy sounding novels as Just for the Summer.

[A]

Ooh.

[D]

And the Happy Ever after playlist.

[E]

Ooh.

[D]

Both of which sound like maybe best news. Maybe I should just recount the plots of those.

[A]

That was how I was hired on Livewire. Just for the summer.

[B]

Whoops.

[A]

And I just never left.

[D]

And now you're living the Happily Ever after playlist.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

So Abby Jimenez did an event recently in Toronto, and 400 people showed up. Most of them were women. They were really, really ready to hear one of their favorite authors talk about the romance novel game. And then all of a sudden, the fire alarm went off.

[A]

Uh. Oh.

[D]

And everyone was like, oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. And then a door opened in the back and, like, six firemen came in. They were all hot. I saw the TikTok. They had the gear. They had, like, short sleeves and suspenders. And one of them had his helmet in his hand.

[A]

They were, like, right out of central casting.

[D]

Yes. I feel like some of them sexy soot. Which doesn't make any sense. Cause, like, nothing was on fire.

[A]

They had come from a different fire.

[D]

Yeah. They were like, one of them is holding a kitten, you know? And then apparently the entire crowd went insane and started being like, are you single? And all this stuff. Firefighters took it in stride. There also was no fire. It was just literally a false alarm to the point where people were like, is this some kind of paid promotion? Because it's something that apparently would have happened in an Abby Jimenez novel, but no, it was real. And apparently Toronto firefighters can get it.

[A]

Yeah. Life imitating art.

[D]

Yeah. Which for me, that just makes me smile when, like, random, perfect things happen to the perfect people to receive them.

[A]

Exactly.

[F]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Speaking of people getting what they deserve, and I mean this in the best way, you know, there's almost nothing worse than moving. Right? Can we agree moving is a huge hassle? Actually, there is something worse than moving. And it is your friend asking you if you will help them move.

[F]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Like, hey, I've got a sales pitch for you, Elena. Could you spend, I don't know, the better part of 12 hours endangering your lower back, carrying heavy stuff up to my place for the reward of up to two slices of pizza.

[D]

Why is the reward always pizza?

[A]

It's not enough. It's not enough reward at our age.

[D]

Why does anybody say yes to that? People in their 20s do. Just because I think.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's one of those things you generally age out of.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So a woman named Michelle Tuplin had to move her bookstore in Chelsea, Michigan. It's called Serendipity Books. And it's been in this same spot since about 1989. And it's beloved in the community independent bookstore. But she was going to move down the block and around the corner. And she was very daunted by the project of moving this whole bookstore. She's the owner and basically one employee of this thing. And so a couple weeks ago, she just put a note out on the Facebook page and just said, like, could somebody come help me with this? This is a lot. And she comes out of the bookstore on the day of the move, and there is not one, but two lines of people all the way down the block and around the corner to the new location to be a book brigade to hand. A book. Yeah, Like a book starts out in the original Serendipity Books location and then goes past person to person all the way down to the new location.

[D]

That's so beautiful because then it's a community bookstore. And like a lot of the community has had their hands on the entire inventory.

[A]

And you bring up a good point, Elena, because this was in the article I read out of the town paper. This is a quote organized, type A volunteers were at each end of both lines to ensure the books stayed in order.

[D]

I did worry about that. I did worry about that.

[F]

About that.

[A]

Shout out to my type A kings and queens. Just like being very organized about it. But check this out. The book brigade involved volunteers from ages 6 to 91.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

It took them two hours to get over 9,000 books.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Yes.

[F]

Wow.

[A]

9,000 books moved all the way down to the new location. This is very cool because it means that Serendipity Books will now be able to open in time for National Independent Bookstore Day, which is coming up.

[D]

That's right.

[A]

I mean, any story about people and books and the books surviving these days is a huge W. People in Michigan taking care of Serendipity Books. That is the best news that I heard this week. This is Livewire from prx. Our next guest is a best selling author who transforms complex personal experiences into hauntingly beautiful sentences. Her memoir, the Chronology of Water is coming soon in film form directed by none other than Kristen Stewart. Her latest book, Reading the Waves, is a quicksilver, expansive exploration of grief and hauntings, according to Vanity Fair. We are so glad to have her back on the program. Please welcome Lidia Yukonovich to Livewire. Lydia, welcome back to Livewire.

[E]

My complete pleasure. Also. I love you, Portland.

[A]

Let's start kind of at the beginning of this book where you write that this is not a traditional memoir. I'm wondering, what is this book to you? What were you looking to do with this book?

[E]

I think it's more an exploration of memory and our relationship to memory and where you stand in relationship to the crap that's happened to you. And we often just stand in one place and kind of lock on to the story of what happened. And that's cool.

[A]

That's one way to do it.

[E]

Don't let anybody take your story from you. However, if you hold onto it so long that the story kind of begins to be too heavy or something you can't carry anymore, it might be time to consider standing in a different position to the crap that happened to you. And I guess I mean, the difficult stuff, the things that have wounded you or made things hard for you. And so I think the book is kind of a kind of spacewalk or mind walk or heart walk around looking at your own life to see can I stand in a different place? Can the story shift? And can I shift?

[A]

You know, this book does, you know, deal with some pretty traumatic things. And I found the book incredibly readable. But I was also reading reviews of it, and one thing I saw coming up over and over again was people talking about your ability as a writer, sort of. I don't know if it lightens things, but it makes it possible for the reader to go on this journey with you over a lot of topics that are really intense. And I'm wondering, when you're writing about something like, do you feel pressure to write in a very clear way so that the book doesn't just get pulled down by the topic?

[E]

You know, about this kind of question, One mustn't kill the reader. This is very.

[A]

Is that job number one as the writer?

[D]

Keep the reader alive.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

Resuscitate them if necessary. Well, you know, think about your own life, right? And the sad stories or the sorrowful stories or the heavy stories, you know, they can weigh you down till you're underground. Right. And so one thing that's beautiful about storytelling space, I think you'd agree, Alina, is it's different than real life. You can move around, you can make narrative dynamics, you can make sound, you can make smell, you can make a silence, you can make a pause, you can make up. But in real life, you just get dosed with the experience and it's overwhelming. But storytelling space lets you curate or choreograph so that we're going somewhere together. And yeah, it's sad or difficult, but we're holding hands.

[D]

I totally relate to that. There's a power in that curation. There's a power in putting your story through those paces on the page. If you're just somebody who's telling stories as a person, like, you're never gonna write a book, but you're just talking to people. Do you think we have the same power to narrate our lives how we want to?

[E]

Or I would not know. I'm an introvert and I'm hiding in the bathroom while other people are telling really verbal stories that are wonderful. But I have noticed when they're telling the stories that I can participate in the listening and I admire that. And then I go back and hide in the bathroom.

[A]

This is a perfect time for us to take a break. Lydia will let you power down for about 60 seconds. This is Livewire Radio. We're talking to the writer Lydia Yukonovich about her latest book, Reading the Waves. We will take a short break and then we'll be right back with more Livewire in a moment.

[B]

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[A]

Welcome back to Livewire Radio. Coming to you this week from the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello, and we are also here with Lidia Yuknovich. Could you read a little bit from this book? You talk about an ex husband of yours named Devin who passed away, although I know you're not a fan of that term. I want to talk about that too in a bit, so I'll use the term that you probably prefer. He died in 2015 under some extreme and somewhat unclear circumstances. I was wondering if you could read a little bit from the book.

[E]

Sure. The word Devin means poet, skydiver. One People are sometimes too interested in what happened. The plod of plot and action. Sometimes the rest of the story, or perhaps the heart of the story, is carried by image, by repetition, tiny intensities not captured fully from plot and action. A very intense drama played out in my relationship with Devin. You will not find it in these pages. The drama is not the story or the story of why and how relationships dissolve or crescendo. Is every story living inside all of us to differing degrees, rising and falling in waves. When I focus on a moment, on small intensities that may or may not interest anyone else, I'm reminding us how those tiny pieces of a life are sometimes carrying bigger meanings than the big, dull, thunderous calamities that befall us. If I track not just plot and action, but impressions, emotional intensities, associations, repetitions, images, can I transmogrify and reframe the story? What happened is Devin and I loved each other into the death of of our marriage, which is not any kind of unique story. Oceans of women have fallen for dangerous men, for example, or angry men, or depressed men, or death driven men. Legions of marriages fail. I don't want to write about the plot of what happened to him. I want to find the heart of this story underneath that.

[A]

That's Lidia Yukonovich reading here on Livewire. I guess you sort of, in that reading answered sort of my next question, which is I was struck by the line people are too interested in what happened. Is that kind of going back to the conversation about memory? I mean, do you feel like the specifics of what happened are sometimes overprotect, prioritized, and over indexed?

[E]

I think the dramatic action is overemphasized. When Virginia Woolf has written extensively about the periphery of your life and what's just to the side of the main action or what's underneath it, or little moments that other people ignore but she thought were like, this is the whole deal. There's a Moth dying on the windowsill literally is a story of hers.

[A]

Was it Kafka?

[D]

The moth was named Kafka.

[A]

I would love to see those stories intersect.

[E]

What an unholy love child that would be. I'm sorry, my brain just went somewhere really weird. But you know, what if those tiny periphery flickers and moments and small pieces are where they're holding part of the story? What if the big dramatic thud action that we've been so trained to embrace as what happened to us is only carrying a small fraction of the story? It could be that in your heart the sound that happened is more important or the smell or something you put in your mouth and ate. But that doesn't get to be the center of the story because it wasn't the dramatic action of what happened. So I'm interested in that. And I don't. I'm not right. I'm not a wizard. I'm just interested in bringing those smaller things in the side and underneath and above into the heart of the story in case they're holding something, which for me, they're holding everything.

[A]

Now, you are not the only person that I know who has lost loved ones, who does not really enjoy or appreciate the term passed away. What is it about? And it sounds like there's other folks here that feel the same way. What is it about? That. What an odd support group we're forming this week. Like the world isn't bleak enough. No, but when I read that in the book, it was echoed in conversations I've had with other people who've suffered loss and do not appreciate that term. Can you kind of explain why it is that you don't really have use for that term?

[E]

I mean, again, I'm not right. But what pisses me off is how passive it is. Like something just floated off. When the lives we lead, when we're in relation to people we love, that's all there is. That's the heart of being human. And so I'm not trying to say that we should exalt death and give it over dramatic language. I'm saying we should bring death into the story of being human. And the beauty and the pain and the sorrow and the joy and the ecstasy of that. And so when someone dies, it's part of what it means to be alive. And why don't we glory in that and the passed away language also, I was raised Catholic and Devin's family was Baptist Christian. And so it just pisses me the hell off that this language is like, oh, fly away. You don't Fly away. You're remembered in the bodies and hearts of people you were close to. And that's still there as long as I'm alive. And hopefully I can pass that to someone else. And so that language, again, you don't have to agree with me, but you know what I mean.

[A]

Yeah, I do. We're having a very meaningful and deep conversation, as we often do with you, Lydia. I don't want to take it to Hollywood, but it.

[E]

But you're going to.

[A]

But I feel professionally obligated to mention that your last book has. Well, actually was Chronology of Water. How many books ago was that?

[E]

2011, I think.

[A]

Well, that really beloved memoir has been adapted into a film. I understand it's been filmed. I was looking at production stills of a person who's portraying you in the film, a young version of you. And I'm just curious. I know that you and your husband were in on the writing of the film. What is that like for you to see the story of your life portrayed in that way?

[E]

Well, let's back up for a second and talk about who's making the film. It's Kristen Stewart.

[A]

Did I read that she said she was pausing her acting career until she could get this movie officially made? All this being a famous Hollywood person was getting in the way of her executing a movie about your life?

[E]

She did say that. I think a feature we share is that when someone tells us no, we get feisty and pissed off. And someone was telling her no, and that was her response. But what I want to say about her being the person making this piece of art, it matters because she has singular and, you know, different than everybody else view of what films are, of what acting is, of what stories are, of what women are, of what gender is. And so she's not making a biopic. This is not that she's very interested in being faithful to the experimental quality of the narrative. And so if I was telling you what to look for, I'm thinking art house movie, probably beyond jarmish, like collage, vaguely psychedelic, interested in memory. Not interested in linear narrative, interested in image sequencing and rearrangements. And that's fine by me.

[A]

Yeah, that's gotta be maybe a relief from this otherwise kind of constraining notion of a biopic of a linear story of a. That's not maybe what I thought in that moment or how I wrote about that moment. But to have it be a totally different expression, that must be kind of liberating for you as the person whose life it is, to some degree based on completely.

[E]

But also I just have a fundamentally different view of the whole project, which is this kind of like in jazz musicians, I'm an artist. I made a piece of art. This other artist came along, had felt something about the piece of art I made, and now she's making a completely different piece of art, and she riffed off of my art, and whatever it is will be its own autonomous thing. And that's beautiful to me. I don't need it to have anything to do with me. It's just a riffing, an artistic riffing.

[A]

Well, we're very excited to see however it turns out. Lydia, thank you for coming on livewire. That was writer Lidia Yukonovich right here on Livewire, talking to us last year about her memoir, Reading the Waves. Now, since that interview, Lydia edited and contributed to the anthology the big M13 writers take back the Story of Menopause, which came out back in January. The film Chronology of Water that's been playing in theaters across the country and will screen at the Seattle International film festival on March 18, where Lydia will be doing a Q and A. Hey, special thanks this episode to David Hardman of Beaverton Orchestra. David is part of the Livewire member community and is generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we are grateful for that support because it's how we're able to do Livewire. We could not do it without folks like David Hardman of Beaverton, Oregon. So, David, shout out to you. Thank you very much for helping us do this thing. Hey there, listeners. Wanted to let you know that we will be back at the Alberta rose Theater on March 19 with the hilarious comedian and Internet sensation Atsuko Okatsuka. We'll also talk to Daisy Hernandez about her new book, and we will hear some music from one of our very favorites, the folk artist Laura Gibson. You can get tickets and more [e-mail] and we'll see you March 19th. I'm Luke Burbank here with Alaina Passarello. Of course, each week we like to ask the Livewire audience a question, and we were inspired by Felipe Torres Medina, who you're gonna hear from in just a moment, whose book America Let Me in is about the insanely complicated U.S. immigration process. So because of that, Alana, what did we ask the Livewire audience?

[D]

We asked our audience to tell us about something that's way more complicated than it should be.

[A]

Okay. We actually recorded responses from a recent audience at a Livewire taping, and here's what they had to say. This is something Jonathan thinks is more complicated than it needs to be.

[F]

Low key. College physics, like in class. Why do I always have to assume

[A]

that gravity equals zero? Or like we're in a vacuum or something? Like the equation makes no sense. I don't want to sound anti science or anti math, but I really salute this as a non math person. I mean, we've taken it as a given that physics should be complicated and that we should be trying to learn it. And for some of us, it just might not be in the cards.

[D]

What does it mean when someone starts a sentence with low key?

[A]

It means high key, Elena. That's the whole thing. Well, I think it's sort of morphed into, like, low key. I just am not really that big on putting guacamole on my tacos. Right. But now I feel like when we say low key, we kind of mean it's a big deal. It's kind of like.

[D]

So like when someone says, like, no offense, but you're a total jerk, it's just like that. Okay.

[A]

In my reading of the lexicon, that

[D]

makes it even better that it's a low key.

[A]

Physics.

[D]

Physics.

[E]

Take low key.

[A]

Physics is a little more complicated than it needs to be. All right, here's Brandon's response to the question.

[F]

I think roundabouts are more complicated than they should be. So all you have to do is turn into it and go in a circle and exit and people just keep going.

[A]

I don't know why I. High key. Totally agree with this. There is a roundabout down the hill from my house, and so it means that I use this roundabout very frequently. And I'd say at least 60% of the time there's somebody who is very confused by the process, by the yield signs, and who has right of way. They're not as simple as we were told they would be if we don't

[D]

learn it in driving school, which at least not when I learned how to drive in the South. I didn't see a roundabout, I think, until I moved out of Georgia. I don't think they're allowed down there.

[A]

Let's do one more before we get out of here. This is from Amitai. Something that's extra complicated that maybe doesn't need to be. I'll go with printers. Well, printing should just be really easy. And it feels like it hasn't gotten any better since. Since the 90s.

[E]

That's a good answer.

[A]

Okay, so where I'm talking to you from right now, Elena, I have a printer that for whatever reason, it works. It's on the network. My computer can talk to it. I can never move.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I have. It works. When I hit print, it prints. And I know if I were to move to another location, these things would never talk to each other again.

[D]

Don't even move the computer. I say keep it all exactly where it is right now because you're in some kind of sweet spot.

[A]

Exactly. All right, well, thank you so much to those brave Livewire audience members who weighed in on the topic. Appreciate you. All right, speaking of Felipe Torres Medina, he's actually our next guest. He moved to the US at the age of 21 and then spent the next 10 years of his life navigating the chaos and the confusion of the US Immigration system. And now he's spending this phase of his life trying to explain that craziness to those of us who have not had to go through it. And when he's not doing that, he writes for the Late show with Stephen Colbert. And he's earned five Emmy nominations. He's got a book out. It's titled Let Me In A Choose youe Immigration Story. Here is Felipe, who joined us on stage at the Alberto Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Check it out. Hello, Felipe. Welcome to the show.

[F]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[A]

Okay. I feel like I learned a lot about the immigration process in this book and also a lot about you. You grew up in Colombia, had a pretty good childhood, a good life going there. But then you wanted to come to the US for sitcoms.

[F]

Yeah, I love sitcoms. I love writing. I love television. And I was like, wait a minute, someone writes these.

[A]

Did you have some favorites? Like, were there some sitcoms that really

[F]

spoke to you at the time? Definitely 30 Rock.

[A]

Okay.

[F]

Which was on the air.

[A]

Sure. I mean, your lived experience as a 20 year old in Columbia. Timothy Busfield and the crew. 30 something.

[F]

No, 30 rock. Oh, 30 rock.

[A]

Wow. That makes a lot more sense.

[F]

I have no idea who Timothy Buzzfeed is. I literally.

[D]

30 Rock was on when you were in college. You do not know 30 something.

[A]

When you said 30 Rock, I heard the moody 1990s long running emo kind of dramedy, 30 something. Which would be insane if that was the show.

[F]

Never heard of it. Must binge now.

[D]

Yeah, it would be a hell of a mashup.

[F]

You gotta call it 30. 30, though. Yeah.

[E]

30. 30.

[A]

Okay. So I'm sorry, 30 Rock really spoke to you.

[F]

30 Rock and Arrested Development obviously grew up in the Simpsons on a very weird Simpsons diet because my mother didn't let me watch it until I was like, 12 because that boy Bart is rude to his parents.

[A]

Right. So you decided to come to the US And I'm wondering what you expected. The process of navigating the immigration system, how you thought it would be, and then what you found it to actually be.

[F]

I have a friend who also writes for Colbert who came up with the term to describe the Trump presidency. But it's exactly what you thought, but even worse than you imagined. And that's kind of how the immigration system feels. It's very difficult. And I knew that because it's difficult even if you're trying to get a tourist visa. So I assumed that everything else would be hard, perhaps didn't know how hard it would be.

[A]

The book is a choose your own adventure, essentially. Did you grow up reading those kinds of books as a kid in Columbia? I did not have the attention Spanish.

[D]

You didn't.

[A]

I would just, like, be like, I don't know, back of the book. I would just, like, skip right to the end.

[F]

We had one or two in my school library. And I remember that people really wanted them. And once I finally got it, I remember reading it and I died pretty early. It was like a medieval one. And I was like, this sucks. What do you mean, I'm dead? I hate this. And I, like, returned it. So, yes, like, I was familiar with the genre, but it wasn't like, oh, my God, I love it.

[A]

Did you start out with the plan to write this book in that format, or were you working on a more traditional book and you thought, oh, no, this is a better way to do it?

[F]

It's a weird one, because I very much wanted to tell a bunch of stories and to talk about a bunch of visas. So I think at one point I was like, listing the kinds of visas, and I had gotten something called an 01, which is an alien of extraordinary ability visa, which is a ridiculous name. And so when I started, like, doing that and listing the kinds of visas and realizing that I wanted to tell a bunch of stories about immigrants, I was like, there must be a way to do this. And I landed on this, like, playful format. And then that just helped me create a book that put you in the. In the shoes of the immigrants. And I think was very important because I was tired of explaining the immigration process to very well meaning liberal and progressive Americans.

[D]

But it also seems like such a technical marvel to actually pull off not just to choose your own adventure, but a choose your own adventure about one of the most complicated systems I have ever encountered in my life. I mean, did you just have, like a. Like. Like a serial killer wall with, like, all of the.

[F]

It wasn't a wall, but I think I have, like, seven maps, like tree branch maps with all the stories in different formats, until I found the one that worked for me to be able to track the stories. Also, obviously, the choose your own adventure books are very popular here in America. But that was not my only inspiration. When I was in high school, I read this Latin American author named Julio Cortazar, who's. He has a book called Hopscotch. You can find it a translation here. And that book is like that. That book is a novel that's told that at the end of every chapter, tells you go to this chapter. But also the writer is like, this is a game of Hopscotch. So if you want to read it start to end, you can do that, or you can read it in this kind of style. So it was also a little bit of like. I'm inserting myself in the literary tradition of Latin America.

[A]

We're talking to Felipe Torres Medina about his book America Let Me in A Choose youe Immigration Story. Now, I'm reading this book. I'm finding it informative. I'm enjoying the humor, but it's all under this cloud of the intense seriousness of the topic of what is happening in this country. And you have a kind of a disclaimer in the book that just says, like, yes, this is a very fraught topic. This is something that's very hard for a lot of people. I'm choosing to address it with humor. I'm wondering, but you probably wrote that a while ago, before what we're now actually seeing. And, I mean, it's impossible to even really describe accurately what's going on for people in this country who are either trying to become citizens or are citizens and are being disappeared. Like, does that kind of make it harder to approach it with humor, or is humor still the only option for you?

[F]

For me, it's the way to stay sane. Right. Not to sound trite, but, you know, joy is a form of resistance. And, you know, we all know that a lot of the things that they're doing are illogical and absurd and lack of logic and absurdity is, to me, the seed of humor. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

So for me, it's like, well, if I don't make a joke about this, I'm gonna cry. And so for me, it's the only way to address it. And it's also a way to, especially with this book, inform people about something that I say in the book. Everyone has an opinion on immigration. Everyone, every American has an opinion on immigration, but no one knows how the system actually works, including clearly the people doing the arrests and disappearances, because they just take people like they took a person who has citizenship. So they don't really know the system. They're just trying to either fill a quota or whatever. So for me it was like, humor's a really, I think, fun way and non preachy way to address things that you don't know.

[A]

Yeah. At the sort of beginning of the book, you allow the reader to select a difficulty level of their immigration process. Easy, medium, hard, or very hard. What would be the things, realistically that would lead a relatively easy process of immigrating or becoming US citizen versus a very hard one. What do those situations look like?

[F]

Well, I say this in the book, but if you pick the easy, it turns you to a page that says incorrect. There is no easy way to move to the United States. Start again.

[A]

Yeah,

[F]

I think obviously medium and hard, which are the categories where most of the stories in the book live, are very much dependent on privilege, be it like racial or mostly economic privilege. Right. I was able to move here. I came on a student visa, and then I got my alien of extraordinary ability visa. Now I'm on a green card because I was born, you know, upper middle class in Colombia. So that obviously makes things easier for me. And I think that that's the biggest factor. But when you get to the very hard section and you get to the people who come here the very hard way, I try to make a disclaimer that this is a humor book. And I don't want to deal with the very hard stuff with jokes because I don't want to make fun of these people.

[A]

Sure.

[F]

I didn't want to disrespect the, I think, very courageous people who come here the very hard way. So what I use this section for is to maybe posit the question. Why do you think people still want to move here despite all the difficulties, despite the high costs, both emotional and monetary?

[A]

I won't belabor it, but there's just, you know, L1 visa, EB5 investor visa, opt. H1B work visa, F1 student visa, 01 visa, 01A visa, EB1 visa, green card.

[F]

It's actually 01A. And it's very funny that I had to correct you on that. 01 and 01 A and O1 B.

[A]

And that's like, I'm like. I'm like 2/3 of the way through the list. The point is that these are just. There are so many different classifications and things that are confusing even to public radio hosts about this process. Towards the end of the book, Felipe, you have a chapter that is titled why even Move to America? A sort of conclusion. And I'm wondering about your conclusion these days, because I feel as an American who can see how enriched we are by people who come here from other places, and knowing how close Canada is, I really wonder why people would still choose to want to come to this place with all of the barriers that are being thrown up.

[F]

You know, it certainly keeps changing by the day, but I do think the idea of America is why people come here, regardless of government and who's in power and all that kind of stuff, which is why I think we have to protect the idea. And so that's why people want to move here, and that is the motivation. And I think, as you said, immigrants make this country better because they believe in the idea, like, we are so America pilled, like, for real.

[E]

That it.

[F]

Like, we like America so much more than Americans who did absolutely nothing to

[A]

be here other than be born somewhere.

[F]

Exactly. So I think that that is kind of like, the motivation is to defend this idea and protect it so that it continues to be a country that people want to move to. Because. Because. Thank you. Because also, like, I think Americans think America is the greatest country in the world, and I think that's a good thing. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And so I think we should always have that sense of superiority. So if we continue to make America a country that people want to move here, that's a branding thing. Like, that's good branding. So many people, like, every other country can be like, oh, well, we have free health care. It's like, yeah, how many people want to move to Finland? You know?

[A]

Right. The book is America Let Me In A Choose youe Immigration Story. Felipe Torres Medina, thank you so much for coming on live. That was Felipe Torres Medina recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Now, since this episode was recorded, Felipe has been touring the country with his book, and he's obtained his U.S. citizenship. So congratulations to Felipe and also, honestly, to us as a country, because he's amazing. Felipe continues to write for the Late show with Stephen Colbert and will be doing it up until their last show. I know. Sadhorns, May 21. Felipe says after that he'd love to know if any of you listening to this are hiring for TV writing jobs in June. All right, we've got to take a very quick break here on Livewire, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, indie rocking artist and friend of mine, Pedro the Lion will play us a song. Stick around more Livewire in just a moment.

[B]

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[A]

Welcome back to Livewire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elaine Appacarello. Okay, before we get to our musical guest this week, a little preview of what we are doing on the show. Next week we are going to be talking to the poet and MacArthur Genius Award winner Reginald Duane Betts. Now he has spent years working to put books in press prisons across America. Reginald also has a collection of poetry out. It's called Doggerel, which isn't just a funny name for a collection of poetry, but it's very accurate because it actually involves poems about his experience with dogs. Then actor and New York Times best selling writer Annabel Gurewich will join us to talk about her new book, the End of My Life is Killing Me. Annabelle is a longtime friend of mine and the book is about her journey after being diagnosed with stage 4 metastatic lung cancer as a non smoker and amazingly, through scientific breakthroughs, she's still here years later. She's doing very well, but she certainly has a new perspective on things that she talks about in the book. Then after that, we're going to hear some music from new Mexican singer songwriter Max Gomez. This guy's incredible. He blends folk and blues and Americana. He's gonna play us a tune from his latest album which I have been listening to on repeat. It's called Memory Mountain is the album. So make sure you tune in for that. That is next week on livewire. We'll see you here. All right. In the meantime, our musical guest this week hails like me from Seattle, Washington, Alana and unlike me, is about to celebrate his 30th anniversary playing music with with his bands. His latest release is Santa Cruz and it covers Dave Bazan's teenage years and early adulthood, which is particularly notable to me because I was There for some of it. I grew up going to church youth group with Dave. We're gonna get into this. Pitchfork calls the album densely packed and deeply sincere. And I couldn't agree more. Pedro the lion joined us at Benaroya hall in our hometown of Seattle, Washington. And take a listen to this. I don't mean to keep, like, going over this territory every time we have you on the show, Dave, but I just have to go back to our early days of meeting because I came to this church youth group that you were in attendance at already, and you were the worship leader for the youth group, and you would play the song into youo Arms by the Lemonheads, but you would make it about Jesus. And you were putting out these DIY tapes that were legitimately good. And I was just like, this guy is the freaking coolest, and you are. But I've been listening to this latest record of yours which covers periods of that time, and it seems like you were feeling very differently inside. I was at that time when I was perceiving you as this guy who just had it totally made.

[E]

Yeah.

[G]

I'm sorry I didn't mention you on the record.

[A]

No, no, that's okay. You know what? There's always the follow up.

[G]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[G]

What was happening was called masking. I've learned recently.

[A]

Yeah. You know, what was sort of happening for you emotionally and mentally in your teenage years that you wanted to revisit with this record?

[G]

I think, you know, since I was a kid, I. You know, we each have these bad bumps, bad bounces as children and adolescents and things, and depending on how we deal with them, if we shove them down for later or have somebody to talk to about them, it turns out kind of differently. And so I shoved all of it down, waiting, thinking, this won't be forever, but right now I have to suck it up. And that was, you know, 45 years in. I was like, oh, it's time I got to do it.

[A]

A lot of your music over the years has been you sort of publicly grappling with your relationship with God and sort of where you might be on that on any given year or week. And I know that's why a lot of people who grew up the way I did really sort of were drawn to your music because we've also experienced that journey. I'm wondering what that's like for you to have that part of your life really public and then to have a lot of people be like, oh, yeah, I know what he's talking about.

[G]

I mean, it's a huge honor. Like, it's a. A really delicate thing to experience. And it, in my experience, was pretty lonely. And so even writing about it, I thought, no one's gonna connect with this. This is just my own trip. And then when you put out the song or the record and you have people come up and say, oh, man, I felt lonely, too, in my transition from beliefs to, you know, belief to belief. And so that's huge. Like I said, it's an honor, and I can't think of it as too big of a responsibility. You just have to be yourself, you know?

[A]

Have you considered integrating the Lemonhead song into your arms into the page of the lion set? I mean, it kind of slaps.

[G]

Yeah, it does. Just don't tell Evan that I sang it to God.

[A]

All right, what song are we gonna hear?

[G]

This is Spend Time from Santa Cruz.

[A]

All right, this is page of the lion on Livewire.

[H]

Spend time with the energy Spend time with the energy Spend time with the Enemy. Because I started my own thing, and then I dropped out to play show Found me a room where I live and rehearse I'm pretty excited to see how it goes Is what I would have said to the cousins I love at Christmas dinner When they asked me what I was up to if I had courage left Instead I told them I was teaching drums that I couldn't let it I couldn't let it I couldn't let myself let it in I couldn't let it I couldn't let it I couldn't let it I couldn't let myself Spend time with the energy Springtime oh, with the energy Energy to spend time with the enemy Then my mother, she pulled me aside Looked me in the eye Said, why you saying that? You really doing the bed? Don't be ashamed of it. Back in my room drumming the pole he can lift it up like an enemy when it was my turn I couldn't let go or get out of my head or into the flow I couldn't let it I couldn't let it I couldn't let myself let it

[E]

I

[H]

couldn't let it I couldn't let it I couldn't let it I couldn't let myself Spend time with the energy Spend time with the energy Spend time with the enemy.

[E]

Thank you.

[A]

That right there, that was Pedro the Lion here on Livewire performing Spend Time from David's latest album, Santa Cruz. Pedro the Lion's gonna be performing all across the Pacific Northwest this spring, and you can find out when they'll be in a town near you by going to the website Pedro the Lion

[F]

all

[A]

right, that's going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Lydia Yukonovich, Felipe Torres Medina and Pedro the Lion.

[D]

Lara Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Michelle is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Our technical director is Eben Hoffer, Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor and our house sound is by Dean Neil Blake, Ashley park is our production

[A]

fellow, Valentine Keck is our operations manager, Andrea Castro Martinez is our marketing associate and Ezra Veenstra runs our front of house. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Eyal Alves, Mike Gamble, Pony Dahmer and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Hazik bin Ahmad Farid.

[D]

Additional funding provided by the City of Portland's Office of Arts and Culture. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff and this week we would like to thank member David Hardman of Beaverton, Oregon.

[A]

For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.

[D]

Prx.

[A]

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[D]

From prx.