Sam Sanders, Sandi DuBowski, and The Lowest Pair (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank – Episode Summary Episode: Sam Sanders, Sandi DuBowski, and The Lowest Pair (REBROADCAST)
Release Date: July 24, 2026
Host: Luke Burbank
Announcer: Elena Passarello

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Episode Overview

This rebroadcast episode of Live Wire blends pop culture insights, documentary filmmaking, and folk music performance. Host Luke Burbank welcomes podcaster Sam Sanders for a deep dive into the evolution of pop culture consumption, filmmaker Sandi DuBowski to discuss his groundbreaking documentary Sabbath Queen, and a live set from the folk duo The Lowest Pair. The show maintains its signature late-night radio energy, mixing smart discussion with humor and heart.

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Best News of the Week

[03:34 – 09:34]

Elena Passarello’s Story: Following Your Dreams at Any Age

• Shares the inspiring journey of Kent Broussard, a 66-year-old retiree who trained for years to fulfill his dream of joining the LSU Tiger Band.
• Despite challenges, he learned to play the tuba again, practiced marching, enrolled as a non-traditional student, and finally played on the field – the oldest member of the band.
• Notable Quote:
  • “People retire, but dreams don’t.” – Kent Broussard (as quoted by Elena Passarello, [06:26])

Luke Burbank’s Story: Skateboarding Across America

• Tells the tale of Brooke Johnson, who honored her late stepdad’s wish by skateboarding solo from Santa Monica to Virginia Beach, raising $50,000 for spinal injury charity.
• Emotional moment: While struggling on her journey, a supportive voicemail from her stepdad motivated her to continue.
• Notable Quote:
  • “We are incredibly powerful as human beings when we put our mind to stuff.” – Luke Burbank ([09:34])

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Interview: Sam Sanders (Podcaster & Host)

[10:45 – 27:13]

Pop Culture, Monoculture, and Sitcoms

• Sam Sanders discusses the fragmentation of pop culture, contrasting today’s streaming era with the former “monoculture” of the 3-network television era.
• Monoculture Example:
  • “Everyone I went to school with watched the Fresh Prince of Bel Air…you talked about it.” – Sam Sanders ([11:05])
• Sanders’ top picks if only three TV shows could exist: I Love Lucy, Girls, In Living Color.
  • I Love Lucy for its universal, accessible sitcom format.
  • Girls for self-aware, committed characters.
  • In Living Color as the most influential, pioneering pop culture force.
• On “In Living Color” Influence:
  • Brought diversity and edge, launched stars like Jim Carrey, Jamie Foxx, and J.Lo; changed the Super Bowl halftime show forever.
  • “Pop culture as we know it doesn't exist without In Living Color.” – Sam Sanders ([13:47])

Peak Stadium Concerts & Craving Intimacy

• Sanders argues we’ve reached “peak stadium concert” – despite the spectacle, smaller intimate venues or ‘Unplugged’ formats offer new creative ground for pop stars.
• Memorable Moment:
  • “Beyoncé was in like, an old Corvette soaring through the sky…But I think I would rather see Beyoncé sing opera in an opera hall.” – Sam Sanders ([18:45])

Judging at the Tribeca Film Festival

• Sanders shares his experience as a podcast judge at Tribeca, joking about receiving his official invitation via a screenshot text meant for Robert De Niro.
• Quote:
  • “My official invite letter was a text of a screen grab of an email of someone writing, Robert De Niro says thanks.” – Sam Sanders ([21:20])

Podcast Overload, Video Era, & Media Competition

• Debates whether there are “too many podcasts.” Sam embraces abundance:
  • “No one ever says, oh, there are too many books…But yeah, the more the merrier.” – Sam Sanders ([22:04])
• Talks about the pressure and quirks of the video-podcast era (worrying about eyebrows, competing with viral ASMR cleaning videos).
  • “Ten years ago… you were just up against other podcasters. And now I have to compete with short form ASMR rug deep cleaning videos.” – Sam Sanders ([25:44])

Job Satisfaction

• On loving what he does:
  • “I get paid to, like, watch Internet, watch tv, watch movies, listen to music, read books and then talk about them… I’m so lucky. Every day I'm grateful for it.” – Sam Sanders ([26:31])

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Audience Question: “Mandatory” TV Shows

[28:27 – 31:48]

• Listeners suggest which TV show should be “mandatory viewing”:
  • Somebody Somewhere: “A show about the love of your life being your best friend.” – Lisa via Elena Passarello ([28:54])
  • Andor: “It’s perfect. 10 out of 10, no notes.” – Eric ([29:48])
  • Real Housewives franchise: “We follow a semi-ignored demographic… people finding their autonomy as a result of the success of the show.” – Talia ([30:45])
• Hosts banter about the merits and cultural importance of each.

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Interview: Sandi DuBowski (Filmmaker, "Sabbath Queen")

[32:42 – 42:54]

The Making of ‘Sabbath Queen’

• Chronicles the 21-year journey making the documentary about Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie, a queer rabbi from an Orthodox dynasty who founded a “God-optional” congregation and uses drag as spiritual expression.
• On Amichai:
  • “He was already smashing the box… But we just became friends and developed deep trust.” – Sandi DuBowski ([33:00])
• Explores family dynamics amid tradition and LGBTQ+ identity, the willingness to “sit in discomfort” for dialogue.

Interfaith Marriage & Jewish Identity

• Central tension: performing interfaith (Jew/non-Jew) marriages, still controversial in much of the Jewish world.
• Personal and communal implications:
  • “I really believe we're in a time of sacred hybridity. We need love to drive our world.” – Sandi DuBowski ([38:47])

The Gaza Question & Difficult Conversations

• On including the topic of Gaza and ceasefire in the film:
  • “Every image and every word in this film is a minefield… But I also have people who just now have told me, I love the film, I hate the last two minutes, but I'm still recommending it.” – Sandi DuBowski ([40:05])

Family Influence & Change

• The legacy of Amichai’s rabbinic family and how even tradition-bound members evolved:
  • “Queer people change people, you know, that's what we do. Like, we come from that place of the margin and we have power, you know, to shape the world.” – Sandi DuBowski ([42:30])
  • Announcement: Amichai’s niece is becoming the first female rabbi in their 1000 year dynasty.

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Music Performance: The Lowest Pair

[44:00 – 51:22]

• Folk duo The Lowest Pair (Kendall Winter & Palmer T. Lee) perform a heartfelt, roots-driven song live at Portland’s Kiln co-working space.

• Hilarious story of accidentally looping the song for 45 minutes at a medical marijuana farmer’s market after overindulging in vendor samples.

  • “Palmer looked at me and said, I have forgotten all of our songs. And I said, I, too, have forgotten all of our songs.” – Kendall Winter ([45:52])

• The performance contrasts sweet harmonies with a wry, lived-in tone – the tune and the story leave the audience smiling.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Pop culture as we know it doesn't exist without In Living Color.” – Sam Sanders ([13:47])
• “People retire, but dreams don’t.” – Kent Broussard via Elena Passarello ([06:26])
• “No one ever says, oh, there are too many books…But yeah, the more the merrier.” – Sam Sanders ([22:04])
• “I have a newfound respect for people who do the on camera stuff for a living… I have a lot of eyebrow products now.” – Sam Sanders ([22:45])
• “Queer people change people, you know, that's what we do. Like, we come from that place of the margin and we have power, you know, to shape the world.” – Sandi DuBowski ([42:30])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [03:34] Best News: LSU Tiger Band & Skateboarding Across America
• [10:45] Sam Sanders interview: Pop culture monoculture, sitcoms, favorite TV influences
• [17:23] Peak stadium concerts & the longing for intimacy
• [21:20] Judging at Tribeca & the evolution of podcasting
• [28:27] Audience Q: “Mandatory viewing” TV
• [32:42] Sandi DuBowski interview: Documentary film & Jewish tradition
• [44:00] The Lowest Pair: Live music and tales from a medical marijuana market

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Tone & Style

Friendly, irreverent, and deeply informed. Live Wire maintains a conversational, sometimes wry tone—balancing pop culture “hot takes” and profound discussions about identity with humor and musical interludes.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a rich blend of witty pop culture debate, emotional storytelling, and soulful music—with hard-won insights about art, belonging, and the ever-changing media landscape. Sam Sanders provides wise and often funny takes on the state of TV, media saturation, and the shifting ways we connect. Sandi DuBowski’s account of making Sabbath Queen is both deeply personal and resonant for anyone interested in legacy, faith, and transformation. And The Lowest Pair’s segment is a reminder that sometimes the best music comes with a giggle and good story.

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Listen / Learn More

• Listen to Live Wire and find archives at livewireradio.org
• Find Sabbath Queen screenings at sabbathqueen.com
• Check out The Lowest Pair’s album Horse Camp and tour info online

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Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week we are talking to Sam Sanders, host of the Sam Sanders show, about all things pop culture, including why Sam believes that the TV show In Living Color. Remember Homie the Clown and Fire Marshal Bill? Why Sam Thinks In Living Color is one of the most influential TV programs of all time. Then we're gonna talk to filmmaker Sandy Dabowski about his latest documentary. It's called Sabbath Queen. The film follows the life of Rabbi Amichai Lau Lavey, who uses drag as part of his God optional congregation that he founded to practice his faith in a new and very novel way. And then speaking of old novel things, we're gonna hear some banjo from the folk duo the Lowest Pair. We have a fascinating live wire for you this week that covers all kinds of ground. You're not gonna wanna miss it, but you gotta stay tuned cause it gets started right after this.

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[Luke Burbank]

this episode of Livewire was originally recorded in September of 2025. We hope you enjoy it.

[Elena Passarello]

Now let's get to the show from prx. It's Livewire. This week, podcaster Sam Sanders.

[Sam Sanders]

10 years ago when I began podcasting, you were just up against other podcasters. And now I have to compete with short form asmr Rug Deep Cleaning Videos filmmaker Sandy Dubowski.

[Sandy Dabowski]

Queer people change people, you know, that's what we do. Like we come from that place of the margin and we have power with

[Elena Passarello]

music from the Lowest Pair and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you so much, Elana Passarello. Thanks to everyone for tuning in from all over the United States of America. We have a really fun, informative show for you this week. But of course we gotta kick things off like we always do with the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder that there is in fact good news happening out there in the world. You just have to look, look for it. Also, sometimes you have to play hurt, as they say. You have to broadcast through feeling a little under the weather, which is what Elena Passarello is doing this week. Thank you, thank you for your commitment to the Livewire project. What is the best news that you heard all week?

[Elena Passarello]

I mean, it might be because I'm all hopped up on cold medicine, but I cannot tell this story without bursting into tears. So just be forewarned. It's just sweet. It's a happy sweet story and it's in one of my favorite states in the Union, Louisiana. It involves a guy named Kent Broussard who is a 66 year old, I think Louisiana native. Definitely grew up in close proximity to Tiger Stadium.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh sure, where LSU plays.

[Elena Passarello]

That's right. Went to LSU games ever since he was a little kid. Loved the pageantry, especially loved the band. Was a musician, played the tuba and the sousaphone in school and ended up going to Southeast Louisiana University, which does not have a marching band, but he played in like the symphonic band. Got two degrees, became an accountant, retired in his early 60s, seems to have done very well for himself. So when he retired in 2023, he decided to take a long journey to make himself eligible to play in the LSU Tiger Band. It was not an easy task. He's doing yard work in a weighted vest, he's running 20 miles a week, he's getting swole, he's working with a music teacher who's teaching him not just how to play the tuba and the sousaphone again because he had to relearn how to read music and all that, but how to march with a musical instrument. This is five years of work. And then of course, his long suffering wife was like, and then he practiced the tuba marching up and down the neighborhood and the neighbors were sort of into it. Everyone was so supportive. Though his own daughter got in touch with the band band program at LSU to see if there was a pathway into him to be able to audition. And there was. So at 66 years old, Ken Broussard enrolled as a non traditional freshman at LSU taking classes, 12 credits and went to the whole summer band camp gauntlet training. And a couple of weeks ago they announced, you know, which folks made the cut. And we're going to be starting members of the band. And he made it.

[Luke Burbank]

Unbelievable.

[Elena Passarello]

I know. And on September 6th in the game against Louisiana Tech, he hit the field as the oldest member of the Golden Band from Tiger Land. On the tuba, he was rocking the jumbotron. People were weeping.

[Luke Burbank]

I haven't thought about that, but you're absolutely right. Like, you see those clips of the football players hitting the tackling sled and sweating out pure Gatorade. And you do not think about the marching band folks that are going through something that's arguably as physically challenging in the same, you know, weather situation. And to be doing all of that at the age that our guy was doing it at, that is truly incredible.

[Elena Passarello]

In double knit polyester while holding like a 70 pound instrument. I don't know how much it weighs, but I just want to close on a great quote that Kent said. He said, you know what, People retire, but dreams don't. So he made it happen, and the whole world is proud of him.

[Luke Burbank]

The best news that I heard all week is also an example of some incredible, I guess you could say, physical fitness. It involves a woman named Brooke Johnson. Now, Brooke Johnson was very close in life with her stepfather, a guy named Roger. And Roger, unfortunately, a few years ago, was involved in an accident where he had. Part of his spine was broken and he lost his mobility. He was in a wheelchair.

[Blueland Sponsor Voice]

And.

[Luke Burbank]

And Brooke is apparently really into skateboarding. And she had always talked with her stepdad, Roger, about this idea of trying to skateboard across America. And the idea at the time was that they were gonna have Roger in some kind of like a wheelchair or wheeled device, and she was gonna skateboard and he was gonna wheel, and they were gonna kind of go across the country. Interestingly enough, Roger seemed more confident about this whole situation than Brooke did. She was like, apparently she kept saying, roger, it's a really big country.

[Elena Passarello]

She's not wrong.

[Luke Burbank]

Understatement of the year. And then Roger was like, yeah, you can do it. Well, unfortunately, Roger ended up passing away. But this dream of brook skateboarding across America, by the way, becoming the first woman to ever do this, did not die. In fact, Roger's passing only kind of increased her motivation to do this. And so not that long ago, she set out. She started off in Santa Monica, California, and the plan was to skateboard all the way across the country. 3,226 miles. And I was watching this unfold kind of in real time on TikTok. What you don't understand about skateboarding across America as Brooke Johnson did is how much of America is uphill. And then you watch somebody out there skateboarding uphill, a mountain pass in, like, the southwest somewhere. And I was seriously, like, watching this Brooke Johnson do this project. And I just thought, give up. You cannot do this. This is way too much for one person to try to do. She did not give up, Elena. In fact, she raised all of this money for this foundation that helps people who have sustained spinal injuries. She raised, like over $50,000 for this project. She also had this incredible moment. This is like something out of a movie where she was somewhere in, I think, about the middle of the country. And it was a particularly rough day. The weather was terrible, it was mountainous. And, you know, people do this from time to time. If you have somebody in your life that's passed away, you maybe have voicemail messages from them or other kind of digital ephemera. And like, when she was at her closest to giving up, she randomly finds this voicemail from Roger that says, everything's gonna be fine. We can get through this. And she listens to this voicemail message on the day that she was her closest to giving up. And of course, she didn't give up. She pushed on through, made it all the way out to Virginia Beach, Virginia. By the way, she had Roger's ashes with her on this whole journey.

[Elena Passarello]

He took the trip too.

[Luke Burbank]

He did, it turns out. And so Brooke Johnson and Roger, resting in peace and doing this incredible thing and raising all this money and showing really and truly that we are incredibly powerful as human beings when we put our mind to stuff. That is the best news that I heard this week. All right, let's get to our first guest. He is an award winning reporter, radio host, podcaster. He founded the hit NPR show It's Been a Minute. These days, he hosts the Sam Sanders show from KCRW as well as vibe check from SiriusXM. This is our conversation with Sam Sanders, who joined us live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. You are the host of the Sam Sanders show, which you record through KCRW and you put out this great newsletter that I love because you always bring up these really, like, again, for a person like me who consumes a lot of pop culture, these very interesting ideas, of course they connect up with larger ideas as well.

[Sam Sanders]

You're really nice. I just call them hot takes.

[Luke Burbank]

But one of the things that came up on the show and in the newsletter recently was this idea that we don't have a monoculture anymore that, like, there used to be three major TV networks and a Finite number of shows and movies. And we sort of had to watch them and then talk about them together.

[Sam Sanders]

And that was it. Everyone I went to school with watched the Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Sam Sanders]

And that's what you did. And you talked about it. And when they changed Aunt Viv from dark skinned Aunt Viv to light skinned Aunt Viv, we all talked about it. And now you find a show. You gotta see which of your friends has the same streaming app. You gotta convince them to watch it. You gotta. So no way. Give it three or four episodes before it heats up.

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

Right.

[Sam Sanders]

Then they might watch it six months later. And then you've moved on. It's very hard. Now. There's like, I want more things that everyone is consuming together.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, the question that was posed was, if there were only three TV shows, what would they be? And yours were I Love Lucy, the show Girls, and In Living Color. Why did you pick? It's a solid list.

[Sam Sanders]

It's not a good list.

[Elena Passarello]

It is good.

[Sam Sanders]

Subscribe to my newsletter for more takes like these. I'll tell you why. For each each one. I think the most universally paddable format of television and the one that could restore monoculture to America is the sitcom. Sitcom is the best kind of tv because it doesn't matter if you know what the hell is going on. You can just start watching. Like I tell folks, the backstory to the Fresh Prince of Bel Air is the theme song. Yeah. And then you're in it.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

So if for me, sitcoms are the pinnacle of monoculture television, the pinnacle of sitcom is probably I Love Lucy because. Come on.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

So that's one. And then two. I picked Girls because more than any show that I've watched In the last 15 years, all of them were in on the joke. They knew they were awful. They knew the characters were awful. And they committed to the bit for six seasons. And they were so good at committing. You still think they're awful in real life, don't you? They're not.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm wishing good things for Hannah.

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

Yes.

[Sam Sanders]

Always. Always. But like, you remember that first pilot episode of Girls on hbo? Lena Dunn's character, Hannah Horvath, screams either to a man or a mirror or somebody or something, she goes, I'm the voice of a generation. She got months of bad press coverage of folks being like, how dare Lena Dunham call herself the voice of a generation? And it's like, you don't get it.

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

Right.

[Sam Sanders]

This is a bit. And so what I love about Girls is that, like, even in the midst of that they didn't stop the bit right till the very end. They were obnoxious.

[Elena Passarello]

That's a great point.

[Luke Burbank]

And let's talk In Living Color.

[Sam Sanders]

So this is my hottest, hottest thing theory.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay?

[Sam Sanders]

Pop culture as we know it doesn't exist without a living color. You ready?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Buckle up. I don't have jokes, but I got lore. The super bowl halftime show as we know it is a big deal. The halftime show for the biggest game in the world every year. Super bowl halftime show Epic. For the first decade or two of the super bowl, the halftime show was like a marching band or like Disney characters dancing or whatever. And Fox realized that they had an opening to compete against the super bowl during the halftime show. Cause it was so bad. And one year they had an In Living Color halftime special. And Living color was think SNL, but 90s, blacker, funnier.

[Luke Burbank]

Anywho, yeah, we all watched SNL and in living Color, but we were all doing like, Homie the Clown and Fire Marshal Bill. We were all walking around at Hamilton Middle School the next day. We were quoting In Living Color on Monday. Not quoting Saturday Night Live.

[Sam Sanders]

Exactly. So this is sometime in the 90s. They're like, we'll do the In Living Color halftime special to compete with the big game. The ratings for that for their special beat the actual halftime show. So the next year, who do they get for the actual halftime show? Michael Jackson. Wow. There's no halftime show as we know it without A living color. And as soon as the halftime show becomes a big deal, it changes the world of pop culture. We don't have stadium tour culture as we know it now without the big halftime show. So anywho, In Living Color explains a large part of how pop culture works right now. Also, the entire Wayans family. Put them on Mount Rushmore. I've said this before. Yes, all of them. I love them. And like, what it gave us. Think about the stars that came out of In Living Color besides the Wayans, Jim Carrey, Jamie Foxx. We don't have J.

[Luke Burbank]

Lo.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, yeah, Fly Girl.

[Luke Burbank]

Rosie Perez.

[Sam Sanders]

Also Fly Girl. We don't have the pop culture canon that we know and love today without that show.

[Luke Burbank]

I agree with that. I co signed that take.

[Sam Sanders]

Thank you.

[Elena Passarello]

Good take.

[Luke Burbank]

We do need to take a very quick break, so let's just get that out of the way right now. This is Livewire radio from prx. We're talking to Sam Sanders, who also has a show distributed by prx, the Sam Sanders show from kcrw. Back with much more. Livewire in Just a moment. Welcome back to Livewire from prx. We are at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. This week, we're talking to Sam Sanders, host of the Sam Sanders show and one of the hosts of Vibe Check. Another thing you've been talking about lately is that you think maybe we've hit Peak stadium concert, Your Beyonce stuff, your Taylor Swift stuff, these big productions that were setting all kinds of records. But now do you feel like we've kind of peaked with that?

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, yeah. Who in here has been to see a megawatt pop star in a stadium at a stadium show?

[Luke Burbank]

Ok, they mostly go to Livewire.

[Sam Sanders]

Who in here would rather enjoy seeing that artist in a small, intimate venue? That's all I'm saying. I get into this fight so much because I'm a big Beyonce fan and I only hang out with other Beyonce fans. And I went to go see her last tour, Renaissance, four times.

[Elena Passarello]

Wow.

[Sam Sanders]

Twice in the uk, twice in la. Like, I loved it. I thought it was one of the greatest live shows I've ever seen. And I think that every 25 years, we get a pop star who was just there. It was Michael, and now it's Beyonce, and that's it. Like, I will not argue that point, but I had this epiphany after seeing Renaissance four times and just, like, having my wig blown off. I'm still bald from it, as you can see. I go to the Cowboy Carter tour and I'm like, mm, I've seen this. And at one point, the friend I was there with, it was his first Beyonce show. And I'm like, you're still gonna be impressed. But at one point, she starts to sing opera. Cause one of the songs on the album ends with her singing opera. And my friend leans over to me and he goes, sam, I don't know if I can say this, but it's so great that she's singing opera, but I think I would rather see Beyonce sing opera in an opera hall. And I said, yeah, it's time we did it. Pink is doing Cirque du Soleil flips.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, boy.

[Sam Sanders]

Taylor Swift is disappearing and changing clothes every three minutes. Beyonce was in like, an old Corvette soaring through the sky. All of them excel at these feats, but I get it. What I want for an artist like Beyonce or any of these big stars, like, go right back to, like, Unplugged. Remember MTV Unplugged?

[Luke Burbank]

Sure.

[Sam Sanders]

My favorite MTV Unplugged is Nirvana. Because when Nirvana walks into the stage of Unplugged, they're doing the rock that they're known for. Once they do their unplugged set, all the critics say, oh, their next iteration could be folk music. They could do this. Like, the smaller, more intimate venue opens up these artists to new musical possibilities.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, you know what? The new version of that is? Is sort of tiny desk, but I

[Sam Sanders]

can't go to that.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, I know.

[Sam Sanders]

Listen, I want one that I could go to.

[Luke Burbank]

That's fair. That's fair. We're talking to Sam Sanders here on Livewire this week from the Sam Sanders show from kcrw. Also, vibe check. And newly minted Tribeca Film Festival judge podcast division. I saw this on Instagram. You had a personal invite girl. Bob De Niro, maybe we'll judge. Let me tell you at the.

[Sam Sanders]

What? So, okay, okay, let me set this up. Because the older I get, the more I realize, given enough time, all media becomes all other media. This is just the way of the world. And because of this, the Tribeca Film Festival now has a podcast division. Bless it, fine with it. Support it. Last year, I was up there to do some podcast stuff with them, and this year, one of the organizers of the audio festival portion of Tribeca was like, you want to be a judge? And I made the Instagram post seem very romantic. And Robert De Niro sent me a letter. Here's how it really happened. Davey, text me. He's like, would you do this for us? And I was like, oh, my God, it's unpaid labor, but I like you, and whatever, fine. And he's like, okay, I'll email you the official invite. And I don't know what I did wrong, but whatever email address, I told him it kept bouncing back. So he's like, we need to send you the official whatever letter. And I was just like, bro, just send me a screen grab of the text of the email. Send me a screen grab. Because if the email's not going through, it's whatever. So my official invite letter was a text of a screen grab of an email of someone writing, robert De Niro says thanks.

[Luke Burbank]

That's. That's close enough for me.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay, Okay.

[Luke Burbank]

I guess what I'm also curious about is even when you're saying, cause of course, Tribeca Film Festival has a podcast category now. We are podcasters. And yet I feel like the word podcaster makes me cringe.

[Sam Sanders]

I've stopped saying it a lot for a while. I was like. They'd be like, well, people are like, what do you do? And I was like, I'm a podcaster now. I say I work in Media, I'm a journalist.

[Luke Burbank]

Have we reached much like stadium concerts, have we reached peak podcast?

[Sam Sanders]

You know, for the last several years I've been getting some version of this question, which is really the question, are there too many podcasts? You know what I'm saying?

[Luke Burbank]

That was the core of my question.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, listen, my answer, whenever there's a question of like too much competition this, that it's like no one ever says, oh, there are too many books.

[Luke Burbank]

Mm.

[Sam Sanders]

No one ever says there's too many movies. There are too many shows on streaming. Stop. Enough. But yeah, the more the merrier.

[Luke Burbank]

It's the abundance mindset.

[Sam Sanders]

That's right. We're in fricking video podcast land now. Yeah, I gotta do the YouTubes, man.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, you do that though. And they're great.

[Sam Sanders]

Well, tell people to watch em. But it's hard though, because like we did not come into this industry of audio.

[Luke Burbank]

No.

[Sam Sanders]

To be on camera.

[Luke Burbank]

Nobody saw me and said, put that guy on tv.

[Sam Sanders]

And now as soon as you start to do it. I have a newfound respect for people who do the on camera stuff for a living. Because things that you never used to think about, all of a sudden you go to sleep at night thinking about those things. I've never thought about my eyebrows until making YouTube videos. I have a lot of eyebrow products now and I didn't bring my eyebrow products with me. So I'm wearing glasses ton to cover my eyebrows. This is what YouTube has done to me.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes. It's also, and I mean, it's all content and I have respect for anybody making something that people want to watch. But it's weird to work on something like this where so many talented people put their creativity into this. And if we were to put this on the Internet, it would absolutely not chart anywhere near someone in their car who just went on a bad date and is talking into their cell phone. Like, how do you compete with that?

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, yeah, well, and then it's like, what's wild is that like you never even know like what's going to pop. So we'll do the YouTube video of the show and then the social team will pull little small clips to like put up to go on Instagram, TikTok, whatever. And I'll always be like, you need to take the most traumatic part of the conversation of me and this author who went really deep on what it means to be alive. And then that one does. Yep. And then last week though, we had a comedian who's great. Check out his YouTube special, Zach Zimmerman. He had a hot take that vampire movies can predict recessions.

[Luke Burbank]

This was a great episode all the way through with recession indicators.

[Sam Sanders]

But that little. That little minute long chunk of him talking about that, it got like a million views on Instagram.

[Elena Passarello]

Wow.

[Sam Sanders]

Don't clap. We ain't getting money from it. It's not monetized. And then you're like, well, maybe this will convince people to then go to another app to watch a longer version of this video, please. I don't know. I don't know.

[Luke Burbank]

For my other podcast, we were talking and we were trying to figure out some of the specific lyrics of the Flo Rida song. Apple bottom jeans with the boots with the fur. We were trying to figure out.

[Sam Sanders]

Trying to figure out the lyrics if

[Luke Burbank]

the boots had the fur or she had the boots and she was wearing fur and we were. And apple bottoms.

[Sam Sanders]

She's a boots with the fur.

[Blueland Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

I was alive in that time.

[Elena Passarello]

Do you think she's wearing boots and a fur?

[Sam Sanders]

No, not in the club.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, you would wear the boots with the fur.

[Elena Passarello]

This is what I'm talking about.

[Sam Sanders]

The fur lined boot.

[Elena Passarello]

No one wears a fur of the curb.

[Luke Burbank]

This was the debate. And listen, fam. We're all fam in this club.

[Elena Passarello]

That's right.

[Luke Burbank]

My point is that video on Instagram got millions and millions of views of me and this other guy who looks like me trying to figure out if it's apple bottom jeans with the boots, with the fur or with the fur. Oh, yeah. It's like, how do you win in this media landscape?

[Sam Sanders]

And then it's like, also, you have to understand that you are now in this world of, like, video on your phone and short video on your phone, you're competing against everything ever made.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. Ten years ago, when I began podcasting, you were just up against other podcasters. And now I have to compete with short form ASMR podcast Rug Deep cleaning videos. Oh, man, I watched them for hours.

[Elena Passarello]

They're so good.

[Sam Sanders]

I'll skip my own video to go watch some of that. And I'm competing against that now.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm also a really big fan of your other show, Vibe Check.

[Sam Sanders]

Thank you. We have some Vibe Check listeners in the crowd. I know because they wear in the merch. Thank y' all for being here.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, right on.

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And I guess I'm just wondering, like, if you. Because obviously you love pop culture, you love talking about it, but you have two jobs where you really. I mean, do you ever get tired of talking about pop culture? Do you ever feel like you're going to Work when it's time to go talk pop culture on one of your shows?

[Sam Sanders]

No, it's just fun. I mean, I get paid to, like, watch Internet, watch tv, watch movies, listen to music, read books and then talk about them. And then half the time I can talk about them from my kitchen table. And I get to expense and have tax write offs of every streaming subscription and every time I go to the movies and every. This is. I'm so lucky. Every day I'm grateful for it.

[Luke Burbank]

That's the right answer. That's the right answer. Well, we are lucky that you love doing it because everything that you create is just so entertaining and thoughtful and we really appreciate you. Sam Sanders, everybody, right here on Livewire.

[Sam Sanders]

Thank y' all for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Sam Sanders, right here on Livewire. Check out the Sam Sanders show and vibe. Check wherever your pods are cast. Hey, special thanks this episode to Kaliah Bush of Eagle Creek, Oregon, and Alaina Vasquez of Portland, Oregon. Kaliah and Elena are part of the Livewire member community and they are generously supporting the show with a donation each month. I don't know if you've been listening to the news, but we here in the public broadcasting space can use all the support we can get. So thank you so much to Alaina and Kaliah for making this week's Livewire possible. You're tuned in to Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank with Elena Passarello. Of course. Each week on we like to ask the Livewire audience a question. This week we were inspired by some of Sam Sanders pop culture hot takes, which he's got millions of. And so, Elena, what did we ask the Livewire audience?

[Elena Passarello]

We wanted to know what is the one TV show you think should be mandatory viewing for you and all your friends?

[Luke Burbank]

Okay. I have many answers to this question that I feel are the correct ones. But we are not here to hear my answer to the question. We are here to hear the listeners answers. What are people saying?

[Elena Passarello]

Well, I like some of these and I'm definitely adding a few of these to my list. Lisa says that everyone should watch somebody somewhere.

[Luke Burbank]

That was one of mine.

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

Ah.

[Elena Passarello]

Lisa says it's because people need to learn how to be good friends. And it's a show about the love of your life being your best friend. Why do you think, Luke, everybody should watch somebody somewhere.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, it is just, I think one of the most beautiful TV shows that's been made in the last, I don't know, 10 years. Starring Bridget Everett and Jeff Hiller as these friends. She's from Manhattan, Kansas. She sort of moves away to try to have a whole other life and ends up back in her hometown. And she's trying to kind of figure out what exactly her life is all about. And yeah, she strikes up this friendship and it's just a beautiful story about family and chosen family and friendship. Do not let me corner you at a party and get on the subject of the TV show somebody somewhere.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, it's a wonderful show and always surprising. I love it to.

[Luke Burbank]

Absolutely. All right. What's another show that one of our listeners is suggesting people should definitely check out?

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

Okay.

[Elena Passarello]

Eric says andor because it's perfect. 10 out of 10, no notes. Eric, I need you to get in touch because I have heard this from so many people. Diego Luna is in it. It's a great show. I think it costs something like $10 million an episode or something.

[Luke Burbank]

Holy smokes.

[Elena Passarello]

But every time I try to watch the pilot, I fall asleep. I've tried like three times now.

[Luke Burbank]

Also, the question is, when are you watching it? Are you putting at 10pm which for people like you and I is pretty late.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, at like 10 or 11pm, after I've had a cocktail, which might have something to do with it.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. My problem is I've really lost the thread on the. I guess we'll call it Star Wars Universe.

[Sandy Dabowski]

Oh, yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, I'm a kid named Luke who grew up in the 80s. You can imagine I was very there for it when it was like three movies. But I've been hearing good things about Andor too, so I'll check it out. Okay. One more TV show that one of our listeners thinks is mandatory viewing.

[Elena Passarello]

I feel like this is a hot take from Talia.

[Blueland Sponsor Voice]

Oh.

[Elena Passarello]

Though people look down on it, the Real Housewives franchise should be mandatory viewing because we follow a semi ignored demographic, middle aged to older women throughout the country. We see them go from housewives to businesswomen. We often see people finding their autonomy as a result of the success of the show.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, you'd be shocked at how many people I know who are, you know, respected writers and thinkers and people who are held in high esteem who will tell me, and this is not even a quote unquote guilty pleasure. They'll just say no. Some of the best television out there are these Real Housewife shows.

[Elena Passarello]

What I hear is that Salt Lake is like, can't miss.

[Luke Burbank]

I met one of the Salt Lake City Real Housewives recently when I was in Salt Lake City.

[Elena Passarello]

Did she throw a drink at you?

[Luke Burbank]

She didn't. She was incredibly nice, which was really kind of off brand. She was very kind. We were there doing Wait, wait, don't tell me. And she was the special guest, and she was a big fan of public radio. Very, very nice to be around. And again, I felt like I wasn't getting the full housewife experience, but it was still pretty cool.

[Elena Passarello]

That's awesome.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, thank you to everyone who submitted an answer to our audience question this week. This is livewire. Our next guest is a filmmaker whose latest documentary took 21 years to complete. It's called Sabbath Queen, and it follows the life of Rabbi Amichai Lau Levay, who is a descendant in a line of 38 Orthodox rabbis. But he has kind of gone his own way. He founded this experimental congregation which he describes as God optional. He expresses himself through drag, and he chooses to officiate weddings of Jews and non Jews, which in his world is a very, very big deal. It turns out filmmaker Sandy Dabowski joined us for a special conversation after we screened the movie earlier this year. This was at Pam Cutts Tomorrow Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to this. Sandy Debowski, welcome to livewire.

[Sandy Dabowski]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

Let's talk about the subject of the film. The rabbi Amichai Alau Levi. What was it about him that first caught your attention?

[Sandy Dabowski]

So I did a film called Trembling Before God, which was about Hasidic and Orthodox Jews that are lesbian or gay. Ah, okay. So I went to Jerusalem in the late 90s and was looking for people to be in the film. And everyone kept saying, well, the chief rabbi of Israel's nephew is gay. You should meet him. So I asked him to be in the film and he refused because he's too much of a diva. And he wanted his own movie. He said, he actually said, I don't do collage. Yeah. I mean, in all fairness, Trembling was so much about the struggle to belong within the bounds of Orthodoxy. And he was already like smashing the box. But we just became friends and developed a deep trust and an intimacy. And five years later, we began filming.

[Luke Burbank]

And he comes from, like you said, a long line. Was it 38 rabbis?

[Sandy Dabowski]

Generations of rabbis.

[Luke Burbank]

Generations of rabbis. And how would you describe their general persuasion in terms of Conservative Orthodox? Where were they on the spectrum?

[Sandy Dabowski]

Well, I do call them the Kennedys of Judaism.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay.

[Sandy Dabowski]

This is in a thousand year dynasty. And I don't know many people who come from a dynasty. But this is a very, you know, very traditional, quite conservative Orthodox dynasty. Amichai is the first queer one, as far as we know, to emerge from this Thousand years.

[Luke Burbank]

His brother is a very well established and well respected rabbi on his own in Israel. And I felt like watching the film, I was witnessing him kind of go on a journey himself around his brother's humanity and his brother's queerness. Were you observing that as a filmmaker?

[Sandy Dabowski]

Well, I waited 13 years to ask the brother to be in the film. Only when he showed up at Amichai's ordination, at the seminary, at a liberal seminary, which many Orthodox family members, for someone like that, would have boycotted. But he showed up. And I think there's something about. In this family, about what does it mean to show up? What does it mean to commit to difficult dialogue, you know, to not necessarily agree. And we're in such polarized, toxic times that that act of committing to discomfort and disagreement for me is so powerful and so necessary and so. Yes. So I admire this family, the brother to brother relationship. They're role models for me. And there's something in there. There's some ingredient about how we stretch. What does it mean to stretch? And we need that now. So it's. It's been very inspiring.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire Radio. We're talking to Sandy Debowski about his film Sabbath Queen. What was your upbringing like? Where did you grow up? What was. What was the environment?

[Sandy Dabowski]

I say that I'm from deep coastal Brooklyn, and my family made chocolate syrup. It's a family business that my grandparents, my father and I was freed to not make chocolate syrup, but to make films. But, you know, I grew up pretty much in a kind of all Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn, you know, definitely have gone on a real searching and seeking path in my own Judaism. And Amichai was a real portal, you know, for me to kind of reimagine how we remake tradition, how we design rituals that really fit our 21st century lives. So Amichai allowed me to grow in different ways. He actually officiated my interfaith queer wedding with my husband. But Amichai also buried my father, and he comforted my family in a year of mourning. So there's a lot of layers of relationship here of, you know, friends, of protagonist and director, of rabbi and congregant. I mean, this is a very rare, multi layered relationship in the filming.

[Luke Burbank]

It seems that the central tension of this film really is this question of interfaith marriage. I mean, there are a lot of questions, but that seems to be the primary one and the one that really gets Amichai in a certain amount of hot water. A marriage between two men, them being gay men, did not seem to be the Primary issue is that one of them was not Jewish. Why do you think that is seen as such an existential threat to certain Jews?

[Sandy Dabowski]

I think it's intergenerational trauma. I think that's part of it. You know, there were times in which that was really threatening and there was a lot of danger and violence. And I think we're still in a very charged time right now about what are our boundaries, I think in the world, in the U.S. you know, in the Jewish world. So it feels like there's something elemental there. But the reality is that 72% of American Jews who are liberal, not Orthodox, are in love relationships with non Jews. Like, that's not our parents Judaism, that's not our grandparents Judaism. That's not the Judaism of so many people I know. So there's something that is this line in the sand, but it's actually not the reality of so many people, including me.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, and I think it might be Amichai saying that what this now includes, when you have people marrying folks who aren't Jewish, is you have an expansion in a way of the world of Judaism and people who I think he describes as being Jewish, you know. And do you see that as an expansion of the possibility?

[Sandy Dabowski]

Yeah, I mean, we have in the film, we have, you know, a Hindu Jewish couple, we have a Muslim Jewish couple. Like, I really believe we're in a time of sacred hybridity. You know, we're in a time where there's so much possibilities of love. We need to lean into love. We need love to drive our world. Like we're saying, so fear based right now, we need to lean into love. And I mean, taking this film around the world as I have over the past 10 months, and looking at the immense, beautiful creativity of Jews and those who love us, and it's just astounding to me, you know, and I'm just watching all of these incredible communities and relationships and solidarity and, you know, I just feel like this is a time that we should aspire to.

[Luke Burbank]

The issue of Gaza comes up in the film and Amichai is very strong in his opinion that there needs to be a ceasefire. Do you have concern about that message being in the film? Because it might cause certain people, particularly certain Jews, to reject the idea of the film because that's such a fundamental issue for them.

[Sandy Dabowski]

So the reality is that we've had Jewish film festivals reject the movie because of, you know, Amichai's stance and how we portray it in the film. He's very clear, you know, he has pain with his Israeli family. You know, but at the same time, he is critical, you know, of the Israeli government and right now, the occupation and the war. And so I feel like it's very honest to Amichai's stance. And we really went back and forth after October 7th to really grapple with how to tell it in the film, because, you know, every image and every word in this film is a minefield. So we were constantly crafting and spent six years really being incredibly thoughtful about every single minute of this film. So the end where we talk about Gaza is. Is part of that. Now, I've had people come to me and say thank you for the section on Gaza because it really reflects my beliefs and my values about what we as Jews need to say right now and what our. What we. What our stance should be. I do have people who come and say, I love the film, I hate the last two minutes. But I also have people who just now have told me, I love the film, I hate the last two minutes, but I'm still recommending it to all my friends. Yes. And that means sitting in discomfort and sitting in the ability to hold the both. And I think we need that.

[Luke Burbank]

That sounds like something that you were saying earlier in the interview you admire about Amakai's family, that they, even if they don't agree on things, they have a framework for sitting in that discomfort.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah.

[Sandy Dabowski]

And look, it's such an interesting family. You know, you have this gay brother who, you know, is such a renegade and so radical. But look at the effect. Look at what he's done to his Orthodox rabbi brother. You know, Amichai changed Rabbi Benny. Queer people change people. You know, that's what we do. Like, we come from that place of the margin, and we have power, you know, to shape the world. And I think what's so amazing is that this just happened, but Rabbi Benny's daughter Orli just announced that she's gonna become a rabbi. So she's the first female in this 1000 year dynasty to step into the rabbinate. So, yeah, so Amichai's like, I'm old news. She's the new radical.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Will she be part of a collage or is she going to get her own film as well?

[Sandy Dabowski]

Sequel.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, it's a really moving film. Congratulations, Sandy Dabowski. Thanks for being on Livewire.

[Sandy Dabowski]

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Luke.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Sandy Dubowski recorded at the Tomorrow Theater in Portland, Oregon. You can check out future screenings of Sabbath Queen all across the country by going to the website Sabbath Queen dot com. All right, we gotta take a Very quick break, but stay where you are because when we return, the bluegrass duo, the Lowest Pair is gonna play us a song so amazing, Elena. They once played it on repeat for 45 minutes straight. All will be explained in a moment here on

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

the.

[Luke Burbank]

Welcome back to LIVEWIRE from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Okay, before we get to our musical performance this week by the Lowest Pair, a little preview of what we are doing on the show. Next week we're gonna chat with the activist, comedian, TV producer, Jeopardy. Champion and writer W. Kamau Bell. He's got a new podcast out called who's With Me? Where he has conversations with politicians and other notable people talking about culture and basically trying to figure out, like, who's with him. Then the legendary travel writer and television host Rick Steves stops by the show once again to talk about his ongoing mission to mold Americans into better travelers abroad. Or as he puts it, to encourage Americans to venture beyond Orlando. Peace and love listeners in Orlando. Then our friend Edna Vasquez will stop by to play some mariachi music assisted by some local high school students. It's going to be an absolutely fabulous episode of Livewire. Do not miss it next week. This, of course, is Livewire. Now, from the banks of the Mississippi to stages across North America, our musical guest this week blends clawhammer banjo with punk spirit folk. Alley describes them as one of those duos where the music sounds like it somehow came from one body. Those bodies belong to Kendall Winter and Palmer T. Lee. They've released seven albums together, including Horse Camp, which no Depression magazine describes as a rich soundscape that propels the modern and traditional into the future of folk music. Well, the, the future is now, everybody, because the Lowest Pair joined us at a special pop up event at Kiln, this very cool co working space in Portland, Oregon. We recorded this this summer at Kiln. Take a listen. Now I've been told through some back channels that the first song that we're gonna hear there was an experience where you played it at a festival, a certain kind of festival. It was a farmer's market. Okay.

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

It was a farmer's market, a medical marijuana farmer's market.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay. Right. And things got like, got a little on top of you. What happened?

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

Well, it was one of our very first opportunities to play. We got, Palmer was from Minnesota and he came out to visit me in Olympia, Washington. And we got invited to play at a medical marijuana farmers market. And there are quite a few vendors with samples

[Luke Burbank]

and you were having back pain.

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

It's you know, to be polite.

[Luke Burbank]

Strictly medical back pain.

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

Yeah. Suddenly our back started hurting really bad. And so to be polite, we sampled a bit, and then Palmer looked at me and said, I have forgotten all of our songs. And I said, I, too, have forgotten all of our songs. Let's get out of here.

[Luke Burbank]

Did you end up playing?

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

Well, we got to the car and I said, well, Palmer, can you drive? And he said, I can't drive.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, there's no way. Don't do it.

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

And I said, I'm not driving. And so we went back and we played this next song for, like, 45 minutes.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, we'll take the abbreviated version. This is the lowest pair here on Livewire.

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

Sam. I wish to the Lord that I never was born or died when I was a young pretty one or died when I was young. Then I never would have kissed your red ruby lips or heard your lion. Company Heard your lion. But now I fall on my knees, beg of you, please, won't you come and stand by me?

[Palmer T. Lee (Lowest Pair)]

Everyone

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

come and stand by me. You see, you told me one

[Blueland Sponsor Voice]

then

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

you told me two girl, you told me 10,000 lies, pretty one, you told me 10,000 Lies? Yeah, you told me more lies? And there are clouds in the sky now you'll never get to heaven when you die, pretty one, Never to get to heaven when you die. Oh, but I fall on my knees, beg of you, please won't you come and see? Stand by me.

[Sam Sanders]

Anyone?

[Kendall Winter (Lowest Pair)]

Come and stand by me. And now my suitcase is packed I ain't never coming back. And it's goodbye, little lover, I'm going, pretty one, Goodbye, little lover, I'm gone. You see, there's more than one there's more than two. A daring mother lover like you? Anyone? No other lover like you. So fast my knees beg of you, please won't you come and stand by me? Pretty one, come and stand by me. Come and stand by me.

[Luke Burbank]

That was the lowest pair recorded live at Kiln in Portland, Oregon. Their latest album, Horse Camp, is available right now. And that is gonna do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Sam Sanders, Sandy Debowski and the lowest pair. Also, special thanks to Roger Meyer and the fine folks at Kiln and Pam Cutt's Tomorrow Theater, especially Katie Jenkins and Erica Oglesby.

[Elena Passarello]

Lara Haddon is our executive producer, and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Hazik bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor. Our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake, and Eben Hofer is our technical Director support. This episode comes from Nest Royster.

[Luke Burbank]

Our house band is Ethan Fox, Tucker, Sam Tucker, Sam Pinkerton, Eyal Alves, Ben Grace and A. Walker Springs, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hofer and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid.

[Elena Passarello]

Additional funding provided by the City of Portland's Office of Arts and Culture. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokolov. This week we'd like to thank member Kaliyah Bush of Eagle Creek, Oregon and Elena Vasquez of Portland, Oregon.

[Luke Burbank]

For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, visit livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and and the whole Livewire team. Thanks for listening and we will see you next week. Hey, if you appreciate the work that Livewire is doing to amplify riveting and unexpected voices to a national audience, and I gotta tell you, it's a big audience these days, please, please, please consider offering some monthly support by becoming a member of our League of Extraordinary Listeners. Here's how it works. Membership starts at just five bucks a month and there are great perks at every level, including a special shout out on the broadcast. Impress your friends by being shouted out on Livewire. It means the world to us and really does make it possible for us to do the show. So please, if you can help, support us by visiting livewireradio. Org memberships.

[Elena Passarello]

From prx.