Scaachi Koul and Emma Ruth Rundle (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Episode: Scaachi Koul and Emma Ruth Rundle
Date: February 27, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of Live Wire artfully explores the full emotional range—from biting humor and cultural commentary to vulnerability and catharsis—in conversation with two creative women: essayist Scaachi Koul (author of Sucker Punch) and genre-defying musician-poet Emma Ruth Rundle (author of the poetry collection The Bella Vista). The show balances personal storytelling with audience engagement and live performance, offering both laughter and moments for reflection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Good News of the Week (02:00–09:07)

Snakebite Cure Progress

• Elena shares a surprising story about Tim Freed, a lifelong snake enthusiast who's voluntarily been bitten by venomous snakes for over 24 years, aiding in the creation of a universal snakebite vaccine.
  • "He has been bitten by dozens upon dozens upon dozens of snakes. We're talking black mambas... they've published a study in Cell magazine that says they're getting closer to a universal remote snake bite cure, thanks to Tim Freed and modern science." — Elena Passarello (04:42–05:19)

Innovative Eco-Toilets for Marathons

• Luke spotlights a UK company, Pequil, building urinals for female marathoners and using collected urine to fertilize wheat, ultimately baking hundreds of loaves of bread—a circular solution for large events.
  • “It’s brilliant to think that the nervous whees of thousands of women are helping a good cause. That is very British.” — quoting runner Susan Farrell (07:24)

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2. Interview: Scaachi Koul on Sucker Punch (09:07–25:51)

On Family & Cultural Dynamics

• Scaachi reflects on growing up in a South Asian family in predominantly white Calgary, learning to communicate through passionate argument:
  • “I grew up in a really white area with loud, argumentative South Asian parents. So I learned really fast that that temperament does not take outside of my family dynamic. But I was raised by lunatics. But probably.” (09:42–09:59)
  • “There are differences in how certain white people fight and how all brown people fight. So when we argue, like, that's just like tea... that's just what we're having, a conversation... So rarely in my family did fights have any consequences for anybody.” (10:08–10:46)

On Parental Roles

• Her mother was the foundation; her father, comedic relief and a “menace to society” whose penchant for buying fake furniture on Facebook is a running joke (11:37–11:56)

On The Miracle of Her Birth

• Scaachi was a surprise baby after multiple miscarriages—her mother discovered the pregnancy during an exam before a scheduled hysterectomy:
  • “She was supposed to get a hysterectomy... they’re like, ‘We can't do the surgery unless you want us to terminate.’” (14:43–15:11)
  • “My father... somehow managed to get one by, which fills me with a rectitude I can't even approach. But I really think it is about me, not about him.” (15:17–15:34)

On Dislike for the Moon

• “First of all, it’s so bossy. I don’t like that it tells me what’s going to happen to the ocean. I think it does something to my period. I don’t like the moon.” (16:15–16:40)
• Mutual amusement over why the publisher let that stand with little further commentary.

On Writing as Content & Personal Reinvention

• Discusses the double-edged sword of memoir writing in the digital age.
  • “I wrote this whole book about my life and what I thought my life was... then a couple years after that, I realized everything that I thought I knew... was false. And they were these stories I told myself because they were safe.” (17:31–18:45)
• Separation, immigration, and the pandemic upended her life, leading to profound personal change.

On Divorce: The Taboo and Its Aftermath

• “Getting divorced is really embarrassing... to have to go around to the people who came to your wedding and… you have to walk that back.” (20:13–20:27)
• Her mother immediately surmised the marriage was over before Scaachi truly accepted it, with friends unsurprised:
  • “Every single person was like, ‘Oh, yeah. So what else is new?’” (21:54)
• Transmuting pain into art:
  • “Of course I was going to turn it into something... The only thing I had after my marriage ended was the story of how it ended. It was the only thing I was able to carry.” (22:05–23:24)
• The experience made her a “divorce doula,” supporting friends through their own splits and making her less tolerant of denial in others’ lives:
  • “I started to gain a reputation amongst my friends as a divorce doula. Every couple of months, old snacky ghoul got a phone call from someone being like, ‘I think I hate my husband.’ ... it is contagious.” (23:58–25:03)
  • “I’m a tough hang. No one's denying it. I’m hard at a party... but you know, it’s okay. People invite me to go on the radio. So that’s what I get.” (25:27–25:43)

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3. Audience Question: Relationship Red Flags (27:19–30:31)

• Luke and Elena engage audience members on “red flags” they've observed in other people's relationships.
• Kelsey: “Whenever somebody says that they made their partner do something.” (27:45–27:55)
• Laura: “If somebody is dating somebody who's, like, never single... they might have codependency issues, that's a red flag.” (28:52–29:02)
• Scott: “If you're having more fun with their partner than they are, that's a red flag.” (29:40–29:44)
• Lighthearted banter ensues about the universality of denial and sitcom marriages.

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4. Interview: Emma Ruth Rundle on Poetry & Music (31:25–41:20)

On Becoming a Poet

• Emma began reading poetry to develop her songwriting (for her album Engine of Hell), but the interest deepened and led her to write a full poetry collection:
  • “The last full length album I put out was called Engine of Hell and I wanted to do something very stripped back... And I started getting really invested in poetry then.” (31:36–32:10)

On Writing While Touring

• Poems were chiseled out on the road: “It gives you this interesting perspective, being in motion... It's very inconvenient to try to be working on a song on an airplane. Poetry, someone once said to me, is a very slow art.” (33:01–33:52)

Live Poetry Reading

• Emma reads “The Star Maker,” with improvised piano music on a record player, creating a haunting multimedia performance.
• “[The poem was] after Remedios Varo, a surrealist painter... there’s a tower... there’s a woman feeding a caged moon, a moon in a birdcage.” (37:06–37:56)

On Addiction, Recovery & Art

• Emma reflects on five years of sobriety: “The managing addiction, it’s something that never ends.” (38:22–38:32)
• For her, art is a way to process and reintegrate difficult personal experiences: “It’s always for me a great way to take experience outside of yourself, put it into something with form, and then you can examine it.” (38:46–39:03)

On Reading Too Much Hemingway

• Title poems in The Bella Vista refer to Hemingway and her “phase” of reading and being influenced by the author after watching a Ken Burns documentary:
  • “I was lonely and I was like, I think this guy would be a great boyfriend for me. Well, he’s not living, so we can’t get too close.” (39:34–39:57)

Second Poem: “The Bella Vista”

• Emma reads the book’s title poem, summing up her poetic longing for genuine expression:
  • “I wish I'd never known any language at all other than the giving of simple gifts.” (40:47–41:20)

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5. Live Performance: Emma Ruth Rundle’s “Blooms of Oblivion” (45:19–51:19)

• Emma closes with a haunting live version of her song “Blooms of Oblivion” from the album Engine of Hell.
• Critically, her performance merges folk, ambient noise, and poetic lyrics, lauded for its emotional honesty and atmosphere.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Scaachi Koul:

  • “I write this whole book... Then a couple years after that, I realized everything that I thought I knew about my marriage, about myself... was false. And they were these stories I told myself because they were safe.” (17:31–18:45)
  • “It's mortifying. Can you imagine? Okay, I'm gonna throw this party about this ludicrous concept, this like risk. I'm throwing a party about a bet... Can you buy me a toaster for the bet, please?” (20:27)
  • “As soon as you start to see that there is a possibility to leave... and things will still be okay... As soon as other people see that you can do that, they don't like that because then they have to think about their own choices.” (24:04–24:53)

• Emma Ruth Rundle:

  • “Poetry, someone once said to me, is a very slow art. So it’s like I could chip away at the lines in a waiting room, waiting backstage after a show, in a van.” (33:01–33:52)
  • “Writing art, music, it’s always for me a great way to take experience outside of yourself, put it into something with form, and then you can examine it and kind of reintegrate it in a different way.” (38:46–39:03)
  • “I wish I'd never known any language at all other than the giving of simple gifts.” (41:13–41:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Good News of the Week: 02:00–09:07
• Scaachi Koul Interview: 09:07–25:51
• Audience Red Flags: 27:19–30:31
• Emma Ruth Rundle Interview & Poetry: 31:25–41:20
• Emma Ruth Rundle “Blooms of Oblivion” performance: 45:19–51:19

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Episode Tone & Flow

The episode flows from bright humor (snakebites, marathon urinals) to deep, vulnerable conversation (cultural conflicts, divorce, and recovery) without losing its lively, conversational tone. Both Scaachi Koul and Emma Ruth Rundle infuse their stories with wit and candor, perfectly in step with Live Wire’s trademark blend of levity and sincerity.

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For Listeners

Whether you’re here for catharsis, culture, a dose of poetic expression, or just some inventive good news, this Live Wire episode offers a rich, engaging tapestry of stories and sounds, perfect for fans of memoir, poetry, or well-crafted radio.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we're talking to Sachi Cole about her latest book of essays. It's called Sucker Punch, and it talks about the end of her marriage, among other things. Now, that's interesting because it's the follow up to a book she wrote a few years ago that was a big bestseller, which was about the time when she got married. So we're really kind of getting both ends of the experience here. Then we're also gonna hear some poetry and music from multidisciplinary artist Emma Richard Ruth Rundle. Her work has been described as chilling and beautiful. Her new poetry collection is called the Bella Vista. And when Emma came out to read some of the poetry, she actually brought a physical record player to the stage to kind of underpin the poetry, and it was so cool. I cannot wait for you to hear this. I gotta tell you, this week's episode of Livewire is gonna hit a whole spectrum of emotions, which, you know, in Livewire talk means it's gonna be a good one. So don't go anywhere. It starts right after this. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in May of 2025. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show.

[B]

From prx, it's Livewire. This week, writer Sachi Cole.

[C]

I mean, I was excited to, like, grow up and win a fight. I had never won a fight before. I was the youngest in my family, so, like, I was fighting, but I lost every single one. And then I got older, and I was like, sweet. I'm gonna kill a man.

[B]

Poet and musician Emma Ruth Rundle.

[D]

I was reading too much Hemingway, and it all started with that Ken Burns documentary. And I was lonely. And, you know, I was like, this guy would be a great boyfriend for me

[B]

and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[A]

Thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks, everyone for tuning in to Livewire. From all across the country, we have a really fun and kind of varied show for you this week, which we like to do first. Though, of course, before we get to that, we've got to kick things off, like we always like to with the best news we heard all week. This, of course, is our little reminder that there is good news happening out there in the world. It just takes some digging sometimes, but we do that for you and we pass it along. Elena, what is the best news you heard all week?

[B]

Well, you're going to have to do a little bit of digging in this story itself to find the good news because we're going to start with a fact that is anything but fun. Did you know, Luke Burbank, that according to npr, snakes kill tens of thousands of people a year still, and 10 times that are severely injured by venomous snakes, like paralysis, loss of limbs, blood clots. It's still very much a human issue.

[A]

I'm very afraid of a snake biting me, but I assume that was one of those things that, you know, they would say like you're more likely to get hit by lightning than for a snake to bite you. I would assume that my fear was overblown. But it sounds like it's the exact right amount of blown.

[B]

Well, I mean, where you live, I know where you live. That's not a threat. I just know where you live. I think you're. I don't think there are a lot of venomous snakes, but in other parts of the world, like developing countries or the tropics, it's definitely more of an issue. But yeah, so wouldn't it be nice if there was some kind of an antidote, like a vaccine? But so there's a problem with that dream, and that's that you need to have some materials, you need to have some chemicals that kind of, this is the sciencey part that compute with humans and compute with a human immunoresponse. And really the only way to get those chemicals is to get them from a body that has survived a stimulus snake.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Yeah. So the CEO of Centeback said his team was looking for, quote, a clumsy snake researcher. Someone who fooled me once, shame on the snake, fooled me twice. Drive me to the er but turns out that there is a lifelong snake enthusiast in Wisconsin named Tim Freed. And he's always loved snakes, and he's been letting snakes bite him for 24 years, since 2001, because he sort of had a snake similar dream. He could kind of combine his love of venomous snakes and his interest in them as a species with helping the better good of the human population.

[A]

So just being a test case, this thing that like no other person would probably sign up for.

[B]

He has been bitten by dozens upon dozens upon dozens of snakes. We're talking black Mambas, we're talking two cobras that sent him to the E.R. we're talking water snakes. We're talking snakes with names that I can't even pronounce. And these two forces, this super body and this company have been working together and a study was just published in Cell magazine that says they are getting closer to actually having this kind of universal remote snake bite cure, thanks to the sacrifices of Tim Fried and the work of modern science. Which is pretty cool, right?

[A]

Wow. Well, that is incredible. Shout out to Tim and all the people doing that research for getting ever closer to this universal vaccine. I don't know if you are a marathoner or a half marathoner or a fun runner, Elena.

[B]

No.

[A]

Have you been out there? How about this? Have you attended events where there are people of all genders and you've noted that the line for the women's restroom is longer than for the men's restroom?

[B]

And that's Ani DiFranco concert.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's particularly noticeable if you've ever been to, like, a race, because right before you're about to go on a marathon or a half marathon or whatever it might be, sometimes you got a little bit of nervous energy. You feel like you've gotta go. Well, there is a company in the UK called Pequil, and their whole thing is to build these urinals that are specifically designed and just for female runners. And this means that, first of all, the way it's designed is much faster for someone with that physical body. Just the interior of this urinal and the fact that it's just dedicated to women runners means that they have a place they can go. They don't have to wait in some interminable line before the race. So these piqual urinals have been a big hit, Right? But now they're taking it to another level. They are working with some folks over in the UK for this upcoming London Marathon to take all of the urine that goes through those piqual urinals and actually use it to fertilize wheat growth. And they think that the thousand liters of urine that they're gonna harvest from this can grow. Wait for it, Elena. 200 loaves of bread. Now, if they were able to harvest the urine from all, like, 5,800 people who finished the London Marathon on a typical year, that would be 3,142 loaves of bread.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Now, listen, I know that this. I can hear in your voice the suspicion, Elena, this is maybe not bread. That sounds particularly appetizing to you?

[B]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that I would

[D]

not like to eat.

[A]

But I guess it's the principle of the matter, right? It's this idea that we can lower our sort of footprint in a lot of different areas, and that by the way, there are many people cited in this article who seem really ready to try this bread out when it's all done. They're very excited about it. I thought I would present you maybe the most British sentence I've ever seen. A runner who's gonna be participating in the London Marathon named Susan Farrell said, quote, it's brilliant to think that the nervous wheeze of thousands of women are helping a good cause that is very British. Anyway, people having a more convenient way to relieve themselves and some good coming from it at the London Marathon. That is the best news I heard all week. All right, our first guest is a senior writer at Slate and the co host of the hit podcast Scamfluencers. Her first book was the bestseller One Day We'll All Be Dead and None of this Will Matter, which feels somehow sadly, even more relevant as a title here in this year than it was back when it was written. That book covered, among other things, her marriage. Now her latest book of essays, which is called Sucker Punch, covers, you guessed it, the end of that marriage. And also what it's like to reconstitute yourself after, like an essential fact about your life has changed forever. Sachi Cole joined us at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon to talk about all of this. Take a listen.

[D]

Hi.

[C]

Oh my God. I haven't been to Portland in eight years. It's so nice to be back.

[A]

Welcome back.

[B]

Glad to have you.

[A]

Nice to have you here.

[C]

I love Portland. I love Portland. AUDIENCE this is the only city where I can get this many white people to listen to me at once. So I, like, love being here.

[A]

It's one of our core competencies here in Portland is white people showing up for things.

[C]

Yeah, it's really nice.

[A]

Here's what I'm curious about. Your childhood in Calgary. What was your experience? Were you a happy kid? Were you anxious? What was the scene for you growing up?

[C]

I grew up in a really white area with loud, argumentative South Asian parents. So I learned really fast that that temperament does not take outside of my family dynamic. But I was raised by lunatics. But probably.

[A]

But you write in the book that, like, your family was having a lot of pretty loud arguments, but that was also just how you communicated. It didn't mean what other people thought it meant.

[C]

Yeah, I think, you know, and I think this is somewhat cultural. There are differences in how certain white people fight and how all brown people fight. So when we argue, like, that's just like tea, like we're just. That's just what we're having a conversation, we're having coffee, we're having a little snack. Like, it's nothing. So rarely in my family did fights have any consequences for anybody. That was just how we communicated. And so then when I grew up and I married a white guy, then I was like, oh, he's not good at this, and I'm so good at it. And I realized pretty fast that that wasn't gonna work.

[A]

Right. Like, that was a sort of a muscle that you had been exercising since in utero. Right.

[C]

Listening to my mother scream at anybody, I was like, this is music.

[A]

Yeah. I think you write in the book that, like, these things that you develop thinking they're gonna really be great in adulthood and be really useful turn out to really not be that helpful.

[C]

I mean, I was excited to, like, grow up and win a fight. I had never won a fight before. I was the youngest in my family, so, like, I was fighting, but I lost every single one. And then I got older, and I was like, sweet, I'm gonna kill a man. It's tough on a marriage when you want to destroy the other person. I find he's fine. He's fine. First of all, everybody relax.

[A]

You write, I think sort of jokingly, but not that your dad is a menace to society.

[C]

That's 100% accurate, but a close menace. Do you know how many times he's had his credit card compromised this month? He keeps buying fake furniture from Facebook and then calling me and being like, I saw these two armchairs. They were $70.

[B]

Two armchairs for $70 on the TikTok.

[C]

If he finds out what TikTok is, I'm going to kill myself. Like, I don't have it in me to manage that. I'm white knuckling it with the iPhone. That's bad enough right now.

[A]

What's your mom's deal exactly? What's, like, their dynamic and sort of would you go to one or the other as a kid if you needed, you know, I don't know, anything? Friendship, protection.

[C]

We went for mom. We went to mom for everything. Our mom did everything. She cooked, she cleaned. She was the person you talked to if you had a problem. She was the person you cry to. She's still around. I don't know why I'm talking about her like she's dead. She's very much alive. I have received several text messages from her today. But my dad was just, like, comedic relief, I would say. And that was also the dynamic that I understood. That's how families worked, right? Women managed Everything they did all of the real work. And then men would swoop in and be like, do you want to go to the mall? And I wanted to go to the mall.

[A]

I want to talk after the break about the very miracle of your existence, the fact that you in the book. Right. Jesus probably shouldn't even be here. Right? How's that for a forward promotion? It's Livewire Radio. We're talking to Sachi Cole about her new book. It's Sucker Punch. We'll be back with much more Livewire in just a moment.

[E]

I'm Kelly Dunham. I'm a nurse educator, comedian, and ex nun. I served under Mother Teresa. That Mother Teresa. I believe that care is best when it's done in community. And on my podcast, Cared For, I'd really like for us to build that community together. Cared for is a show about caregiving, but in its fullest sense.

[C]

So we're gonna talk about the big

[E]

stuff like aging and death. Oh, and all that stuff that feels big when we don't have support. Our first episode of Cared for drops on Monday, February 16th with me, Kelly Dunham, Cared for from PRX and Good Get Productions.

[A]

Welcome back to LIVEWIRE from prx. I'm Luke Burbank. We are at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. This week we're talking to Sachi Cole about her new book, Sucker Punch. You write in the book that your mother will not admit to this, but in fact, it's fairly miraculous that you're here because your mother was going in to the doctor for one sort of thing and found out that a different sort of thing was going on.

[C]

This is my favorite story. This is a testament to my fortitude. I think my mom got pregnant with me pretty late. She had a bunch of miscarriages after my brother. My brother's 12 years older than me. My brother was born in India, so they emigrated to Canada in the late 70s and the early 80s. So my parents tried to have another kid and they couldn't do it. They couldn't do it. But she went to the doctor. She was supposed to get a hysterectomy. And they did her checkup. And they're like, well, we can't do the surgery unless you want us to terminate.

[A]

So they canceled the hysterectomy because there was a child in there. You.

[C]

She'd already had one fallopian tube removed.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So my father. Disgusting. Somehow managed to get one by, which fills me with a, like a rectitude I can't even approach. But I really Think it is about me, not about him.

[A]

I believe they call that high motility.

[C]

I don't need to know that.

[A]

That's the medical term.

[C]

I don't need that information. Good for you.

[A]

So. But in the movie version, Sachi, in the movie version of your life, every day is now a gift.

[C]

Shut up. I'm not like, what do you mean?

[A]

Because you weren't even supposed to be here, and now it's just like, all.

[C]

You're right. I had such a close call to not be around for this. I can't believe I missed it. I could have not been alive for this phase of history. That would have been fine. I wouldn't have known. This is all in hindsight now.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good point, actually. You mentioned something in passing in the book that I don't think is further unpacked, but you talked about not liking the moon.

[C]

I don't like the moon.

[A]

What is your problem with the moon?

[C]

I think the moon is always. First of all, it's so bossy. I don't like that. It tells me what's gonna happen to the ocean. I don't like. I think it does something to my period. I don't know what. I don't like the moon. I just. There's something onerous and ominous about it. And when it's full, I don't like looking at it, and I think it gets upset. And that's when things go wrong.

[A]

Huh. That is an interesting theory.

[C]

You can see why the publisher was like, let's not unpack that.

[D]

Let's just.

[A]

And you're like.

[C]

You're like, just say it and then go.

[A]

But you're like, I'm fighting for at least to get a mention.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Speaking of your writing and your style of writing, one of the things that I thought was really interesting in this book is talking about the kind of journalism that you've done and the kind of memoir you've written in the past, where we are at a moment where a lot of writers, their life is like, also their content. And as you write in the book, that can become complicated when your life takes unexpected turns. Did you realize at some point, kind of earlier in your career, when you're writing a lot of personal essays and a lot of things through your perspective, that you're like, okay, I'm. I'm pretty much locking in on this career path where I am myself a product, in a way.

[C]

Yeah. No, I didn't think about it. I was 22. I was just happy to pay My rent. And at the time, I'm 34 now, so 10, 12 years ago. the time, that was all digital media was producing. They were so intent on getting young women to engage in confessional work. And some of us wanted to do it. I wanted to do it. That was my choice. And I wrote this whole book about my life and what I thought my life was and the theory I had on my own existence. And then the book came out. And a couple years after that, I realized everything that I thought I knew about my marriage, about myself, about my sense of self, about my family was false. And they were these stories I told myself because they were safe. It was safe to be in those stories that my husband loved me and that my family was rigid. There was safety in that. Even though the rigidity was frustrating to me, it still felt safer to accept. Well, I have to stay in this marriage because my parents will never get their heads around the divorce. I'm the only divorced person in my family ever. So, you know, my grandmother got married when she was 14. She was arranged. My mom got married at 24. She was arranged, but with consent. I am 34. It is a hard won battle to die alone in my apartment at this age. I've earned it.

[A]

Yes,

[C]

but the bartender in the back clapping, hey, buddy, I see you. You and me white knuckling it.

[A]

We pay him in free books at the end of the show.

[C]

You can have two sucker punches for that, thumbs up. But I had these ideas and they were so deeply entrenched, even though I couldn't identify that they were. And it took all of it dismantling, everything falling apart. I moved to the United States at the beginning of 2019. In 2020, the pandemic started. I was stuck here because I was waiting for my paperwork. While I was in the pandemic, I found out a bunch about my ex husband that turned out to not be what I thought I knew. My marriage ended, I lost my job, my mom got cancer, everybody's fine. I got a new job, my mom's in remission and I'm divorced. It's pretty sick.

[A]

Yeah. You. Something that you say in the book, which as a person who has been divorced twice, so, you know, dare to, dare to dream. Sachi.

[C]

I kind of feel like if you're gonna do it twice, you should do it 40 times. Like it's either one or 100.

[A]

I'm not like, they call that the Elizabeth Taylor principle.

[C]

Literally, like, there's no more.

[A]

Yeah, there's no more half steps. This comes as Tough news to my girlfriend who is in the audience tonight. No, but here's what you said in the book is that getting divorced is really embarrassing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's what we don't talk about. It's just embarrassing to have to go around to the people who came to your wedding and all the people who. And in your case, you wrote an entire book about it. And then you have to like walk that back. It's hella embarrassing.

[C]

It's mortifying. Can you imagine? Okay, I'm gonna throw this party about this ludicrous concept, this like risk. I'm throwing a party about a bet. Can you come? Can you buy me a toaster for the bet, please? And all these people are gonna show up and they're gonna talk to you as if you are making the last choice of your life. There will never be a choice after this. That's how people talk about you when you get married.

[A]

Well, they feel like they have to, right?

[C]

They feel like they have to. Cause no one wants to come to your wedding and be like, this will be good for now.

[A]

Yeah,

[C]

I think you guys are gonna have a great three to eight years.

[A]

Although didn't your mom kind of do that?

[C]

When I called my parents to tell them I was leaving my ex husband, I FaceTimed them. My dad picked up the phone. He's the least perceptive person in the world. He had no idea what was going on. He's like, you're crying, why? And I was sobbing on the phone and my mother was not in the room. She was in the kitchen and she heard just whatever choke sob happened in my throat and she yelled out, oh, are they getting a divorce? She could have told me. I didn't know. I had no idea it was that bad. Everybody knew I was the last person who knew my marriage was over. Everybody else had an idea. There was not one person I called to say, hey, I know you came to that really expensive four day wedding bad news. Every single person was like, oh, yeah. So what else is new?

[A]

Well, I don't want to be glib, but I was wondering if in the sort of worst of it for you with the divorce, did you have a thought? Well, this will be something to write about.

[C]

It was the first thing I thought, Okay, I kind of, I think I kind of figured it's really disingenuous when some people who make creative work and make public work or they write or they make whatever they do and they're like me. Attention for baby. Yeah, that's what you're here for. What do you mean? Like, of course I was gonna turn it into something. Then I would have nothing. I was gonna be divorced and not at least have a couple of good butt jokes to sell for profit. Okay, well, then why I should have something out of it? But it was my first thought. It was the only thing I carried out of my marriage. The only thing I brought out of it was the story of it. I did not take a dime. I took a weird bed that I don't think I have anymore and the writing chair that I used to to write my stories in. That's all I took. The only thing I had after my marriage ended was the story of how it ended. It was the only thing I was able to carry. I was not willing to relinquish that, even though it did feel like I was walking deeper into this door. That spooks me. And it's weird to give up a lot of intimacy with strangers, but it's a deal I'm willing to make because it makes me feel less lonely. But I was not going to leave it there because I had gotten nothing already. I felt robbed.

[B]

When you leave and you say, I have this story, is there a question that's attached to it that starts you writing, or is it just, I want to retell the story again and see what comes from the telling?

[C]

It's rage, huh? I was so mad. I was so mad.

[A]

Is that why they're brass knuckles with a wedding ring embedded on the COVID of the book?

[C]

I think it's a subtle metaphor I'm able to read. I'm trying to figure out what my lawyer would like me to say about her.

[A]

What surprised you about being divorced? Like, what were you not expecting about that version of your life?

[C]

I wasn't expecting. How many women in particular would treat you like it's contagious? And I didn't expect to agree that, yeah, it is contagious. Oh, yeah, you should be worried. If you spend time with me, you're patient zero. I will get you divorced in 45 minutes. Like, I started to gain a reputation amongst my friends as a divorce doula. Every couple of months, old snacky ghoul got a phone call from someone being like, I think I hate my husband. I'm like, I bet. Come here. Come here. Like, it is contagious. As soon as you start to see, see that there is a possibility to leave, to exit, to make a different choice, to blow your life up, and things will still be okay. You'll still go to the doctor and have your friends and build a life and you'll be fine. But you can make another choice. As soon as other people see that you can do that, they don't like that because then they have to think about their own choices. I've lost a lot of friends because I just hate their husbands now.

[A]

And you're done putting up with it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

He sucks.

[C]

It was I wish sometimes that I could go back to my delusion. It was safe there. I was really comfortable. I had a nice life, but it wasn't worth it. And once I could see it, it was impossible for me to return. And it has become pretty challenging for me to accommodate other people's delusions about their own lives as well.

[A]

So it's changed your personality overall, or

[C]

at least your I'm a tough hang. Like I'm a tough hang. No one's denying it. I'm hard at a party. Like, I'm a rough for first date. But you know, it's okay. People invite me to go on the radio. So that's what I get.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. There you go. A message of hope from Sachi Cole from her new book, Sucker Punch. Sachi, thank you so much for coming on livewire.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

That was the writer Sachi Cole, here on livewire. Her latest book of essays, sucker Punch, is of course, available right now for you to read. Hey, special thanks this episode to Justin Olson of North Plains, Oregon, who is a part of the Livewire member community and is generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we are very grateful for that support because it's how we can keep doing this thing week in and week out. So thank you so much, Justin, for keeping Livewire going. Hey there, listeners. Wanted to let you know that we will be back at the Alberta rose Theater on March 19 with the hilarious comedian and Internet sensation Atsuko Okatsuka. We'll also talk to Daisy Hernandez about her new book and we will hear some music from one of our very favorites, the folk artist Laura Gibson. You can get tickets and more [e-mail] and we'll see you March 19th. This here is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank along with Elena Passarello. Each week we like to ask the Livewire audience a question. This week, inspired by Sachi Kol's new book, Sucker Punch, and the kind of topic of like a relationship sort of falling apart, we thought we would ask the audience what question?

[B]

Elaine, we want you to tell us about a red flag that you have seen in someone else's relationship so you don't have to divulge your own red flag issues. You get to point outward to someone else.

[A]

Landed on a proxy case somewhere that you can pretend is not your life. No. We actually did talk to some of our real audience members at a Livewire taping recently. Here's what we heard from Kelsey. Talking about a red flag that Kelsey had observed in a relationship.

[C]

Whenever somebody says that they made their partner do something. So, like, I made them change their clothes or I made them go get me xyz.

[A]

So that was a red flag that Kelsey has observed. This idea of trying to force somebody to do something different than they would normally. Somebody who is, let's say, your partner. Right.

[B]

The whole I can change him sort of mentality.

[A]

Yes. I have responded poorly to that historically in my relationships. Now, ironically, the other people really had a point, like I did. I had a lot, and I still do have a lot that I should change. It's not even that they were wrong. It's that usually it's difficult if you're the person who is being encouraged in the direction of change to fully embrace

[B]

that you're a cat. Cats can't be made to do things. They just have to be convinced that they've come up with some really great ideas that they receive a lot of treats for, and then all of a sudden, their behavior changes.

[A]

Is this why some of my exes had to put tin foil on a lot of surfaces that I wasn't supposed to jump on? All right, here's another red flag that Laura, who attended our live show, has observed.

[C]

If somebody is dating somebody who's, like, never single, like, they're just a serial dater, and it's a sign that they can't be alone, and they might have codependency issues, that's a red flag.

[A]

Strike two. I think I've been single for 20 minutes of my adult life.

[D]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. It's weird, though, because this was not supposed to turn into a three therapy session.

[B]

But this is interesting where we're going with this.

[A]

Whenever you have these sort of, I don't know, behavioral traits or things that, like, if you looked at it from 30,000ft, you might say, well, that's something to really consider. You don't realize when you're doing it that you're doing it. Okay, listen, we have a final entrant here. It's Scott, who was at a show recently and was talking about red flags. If you're having more fun with their

[D]

partner than they are, that's a red flag.

[A]

I mean, that is an issue if you're hanging out as a group and it feels like that person is having more fun interacting with you than they are with the person that they came with.

[B]

I call that the Everybody Loves Raymond factor. I feel like everyone in that TV show had no interest in being with anyone else except for the tall, sweet brother. They all just seemed really, like, really not interested. They're so mad at each other all the time.

[A]

I think that might be why I never got into that show because, you know, I was like, I'm living this in my own marriage. Why am I watching it on television? Why am I spending this one wild life to see Ray Romano have a relationship that doesn't seem to be working out?

[B]

This has been a really fruitful audience card situation.

[A]

Luke, I do want to say thank you to the brave souls who responded to our audience question. We really do appreciate it. This is Livewire. Our next guest is a multidisciplinary artist, poet and musician who has a brand new debut poetry collection out. It's called the Bella Vista. It's described as a concept album, an addiction memoir, a family tree, and a love letter kind of all at once. Alongside all of that hard hitting stuff, she's also released music that blends folk and ambient noise and metal into something the New York Times calls patiently haunting, with NPR warning that her songs will pierce your chest and keep on going. You know, sometimes art is so good that you need medical attention afterwards. And sorry, we don't make the rules. We're just reporting what we're seeing here. Emma Ruth Rundle joined us at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to this.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

Welcome to the show.

[D]

Emma, thanks for having me.

[A]

Were you always writing poetry but maybe mostly funneling it towards your music?

[D]

I was not. I became interested in poetry. The last full length album I put out was called Engine of Hell and I wanted to do something very stripped back with no effects, not a lot of instrumentation. It was going to be laid bare and the lyrics would feature heavily for that reason. So I thought, I need to do some studying. Who can I turn to? And I started getting really invested in poetry then. So in 2019, 2020. And then I kept pulling things back further and further until there was no music at all. And I was just writing poems.

[A]

And then if you're writing poetry, that isn't going to have music because, I mean, I think a lot of us think of the lyrics to a song as being a form of poetry, but when you're writing it and there's not going to be any music accompanying it. Are you coming at it differently? Does it feel different to create?

[D]

Yeah. We can't rely on musical cues to direct emotion. And there is a visual art form to poetry on the page. And reading it also, which I didn't. I don't think I really fully realized that that would be something I would end up doing when I started writing this. So it is. They're cousins, I think, but they are very much their own.

[A]

You were writing this book of poetry on the road while you were touring your music. What was, like, the schedule? Like, would you go back to the hotel and, like, get out your notepad or how did it go?

[D]

Well, the notepad is sort of just. It's omnipresent, you know, attached at the hip. Yeah. And in the routine of traveling and performing for months at a time, it gives you this interesting perspective, being in motion. And so working on poetry, someone once said to me, is a very slow art. It's like. So it's like I could chip away at the lines in a waiting room, waiting backstage after a show in a van. And another reason for it is that it's very inconvenient to try to be working on a song on an airplane. I don't think pulling out my guitar

[A]

and singing, that'll get the attention of a sky marshal.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. So it was a way to stay active in my creative practice also while traveling.

[A]

Well, can we hear a poem from the book?

[D]

Sure.

[A]

Can you also describe for the radio audience what the process is here? Because it looks. This is a kind of a multimedia presentation, I guess.

[D]

Yeah. So the book did come with this album, which is improvised piano music, and it's inspired by Harold Buddz album of the same name, the Bella Vista. And so I brought my record player from home. Even though music is my life, I just carry this pretty cheap record player around, and I'm gonna put the music on while I read the poem.

[A]

Okay, great. And what is the name of the poem that we're gonna hear?

[D]

Well, I'll read the Star Maker for you first. The star maker, sweet boy, unsure man, line of a man, the most hidden being. You've not yet been discovered, not even unto yourself. What thoughts are you trying to keep out when you build your pillow fortress? And Lord, in the citadel of sleeplessness, whose little army will not let you rest? The Lord God, the Father God, the doings of men who've done and been done to them as children, as brothers, as sons, three generations of war, an old song you once loved and are now tortured by drowning the unsavory dreamer or the fear of wakening again into the faithless destroyer of world's world in which we really live. I never want to waken as lovers only sometimes our eyes meet in the morning bed and I well up because of your indescribables, the directness to your lineage of sorrows. And so short lived a moment it is. You do not hold my gaze, but you will hold my hand. I am waiting at the gate. I am sitting at the edge of the water there, in case the poet does descend. When the star maker is free and the moon is fed, in case you might make the crossing unburdened and without fear of me. I have stilled the morning chorus. I've warned the birds not to sing. I do not eat, but drink on silence and lacrimosa. I open my mouth to become the vessel of nothingness and cast the vacuum like a long held note of shadow, shadow all around your tower. No creature here dares stir that we may behold you, most rare one, my dweller on the threshold.

[A]

That's Emma Ruth Rundle reading from the Bella Vista here on Livewire. Do you remember the circumstances around writing that particular poem? Or at least maybe the major sections of it? Like, what was going on for you?

[D]

Well, this poem, it's after Remedius Varro, who is a surrealist painter. And she had this painting that I became. I sort of get fixated on images or films or songs, and they kind of guide my creative process. And in this picture, this painting, there's a tower up and you can see it's sort of sectioned so that you can see inside. And there's a woman feeding a caged moon, a moon in a birdcage, spoonful of stardust. And we don't know how long this is going on, but the painting is called the Star Maker. And so I was heartbroken for a lot of the time I was writing this book. And, you know, I don't know, for some reason that painting held significance for me.

[A]

Yeah, I was wondering about that because reading the book, it's definitely. I get a sense of you in motion and also grieving. And, you know, I've read that this is a book also about addiction that you were dealing with. Do you feel comfortable talking about what that sort of looked like for you? And also, were you sober when you were writing these poems?

[D]

Yeah, I was. I'll have five years this year.

[A]

Hey, congratulations.

[D]

Thanks. Yeah. The managing addiction, it's something that never ends.

[A]

You know you were writing this, looking back on a time when you weren't sober and did you get in the process, like insights into those parts of your life? Like, kind of like looking back, observing it from now a somewhat safe distance?

[D]

I think writing art, music, it's always for me a great way to take experience outside of yourself, put it into something with form, and then you can examine it and kind of reintegrate it in a different way.

[A]

We're talking to Emma Ruth Rundle about her new book, the Bella Vista here on Livewire from prx. I am a noted literalist when it comes to interpreting poetry and things. And I noticed, Emma, that you have two different poems in the book. One is I read too much Hemingway. And then one is called Too much Hemingway. Were you in fact reading too much Hemingway?

[B]

And how much is too much Hemingway?

[A]

And when do you know it's too much Hemingway?

[D]

Okay, well, this is. Yes, I was reading too much Hemingway. And it all started with that Ken Burns documentary.

[A]

Sure, that'll do it.

[D]

And I was lonely and I was like, I think this guy would be a great boyfriend for me.

[A]

Whoa, that's really interesting.

[D]

Well, he's not living, so we can't get too close.

[A]

2025 Hemingway.

[D]

Yeah. So I just kind of went through a really intense Hemingway phase. I was into the. Watching the Ken Burns. I was really into Ken Burns documentaries for a while and then started reading the books. And then I thought it was kind of a funny title. You know, it's just, it was humorous. And then one thing I learned about writing poems or writing a collection is that when you have something generative and self referential within the book, it helps to pull the whole thing together and feel cohesive. And so I tagged on the second one a bit later. Yeah.

[A]

Can we hear another poem from the book?

[D]

Sure. We're going to hear the title track, the Bella Vista.

[A]

All right, this is Emma Ruth Rundle here on Livewire.

[D]

Rip up this book, my love. I wrote it for you so that crumpled pages of refuse worthy thinking might lift from the floor and bloom Peony and chrysanthemum rightfully placed upon your shoulders. Words and thoughts aren't enough. They aren't even close to right. I wish I'd never known any language at all other than the giving of simple gifts. Thank you.

[A]

That was Emma Ruth Rundle recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. We're not done though, hanging out with Emma Ruth Rundle just yet. After we take a quick break, she is going to be performing one of her songs for us. So do not go anywhere. Welcome back to Livewire Radio from prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elaina Passarello. Okay, it is once again time for one of my favorite parts of the show and that is when we play a little station location identification examination. Here's how this works. I quiz Elena Passarello about a place in America which also happens to be a place. Livewire is on the radio and Elena tries to guess the place that I am talking about. Here's hint number one. This town was the subject of the Middletown Studies sociological research. It was first conducted in the 1920s. The name Middletown was meant to suggest the average or typical American small city. Now, in fact, there are a lot of places in the US Named Middletown. But the researchers were interested in an idealized, conceptual American type. And so they actually concealed the identity of this city by referring to it by Middletown. Sometime after the publication, the residents of this city began to guess that the research was about their own town, that the book was about them.

[B]

So it's a smart town.

[A]

It's also the birthplace of the comic strip Garfield by Jim Davis.

[B]

Ooh, is it Madison, Wisconsin?

[A]

It starts with an M and it's in the Midwest, but we're looking more Indiana. How about Go Eagles?

[B]

Oh, go. It's Muncie, Indiana.

[A]

That's right, it's Muncie. I was gonna throw a little Dave Letterman in there, but I knew that would just be. That's right, that'd be too easy for you. Yes, it's Muncie, Indiana, where we're on wbstfm Ball State.

[B]

Ball State, where they have the David Letterman School of Communications. And the cornerstone says from David Letterman, dedicated to see students everywhere.

[A]

That's my kind of broadcaster. Shout out to everybody tuning in in Indiana on wbstfn. Okay, before we get to some music from Emma Ruth Rundle, here's a little preview of what we are doing next week on Livewire. Friend of the show John Hodgman will make his triumphant return to the program. You might know John as an author and humorist. His work has appeared like everywhere. I'm talking from the New Yorker to Mad Magazine. He's also the author of books like Vacationland and Medallion Status. Plus he's the co host of the hit podcast Judge John Hodgman. Now John joined us to chat about the rules of his Judge John Hodgman court, plus his days as a cheesemonger, his part time home in Maine. He's even going to read us a selection from Moby Dick in his finest Maine accent. Plus, he's going to give us some hot takes on the state of Maine, including their state flower, which is a pine cone, which doesn't really seem like a flower, does it? Then we've got some fabulous music and some vocal styling from China Forbes, the lead singer of a little orchestra you may have heard of known as Pink Martini. So that is the plan for next week. It's going to be an incredible show. You don't want to miss it. Okay, let's get back to this week's musical guest, shall we? Now, before the break, we were talking to Emma Ruth Rundle, who was sharing some of her poetry with us and a little bit of the process of writing that poetry. But she's also a well regarded and was nice enough to play us some of that music as well at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. So here is some of that. Take a listen. We were hoping to hear a song. Could we hear some of your music as well?

[D]

So the song I'm gonna play is called Blooms of Oblivion and it's from that record of very stripped down stuff. That was heavy lyric and yeah, it's a real uplifting number for you.

[A]

This is Emma Ruth Rundle on Livewire.

[D]

Gym.

[F]

Come close to me missing visions

[D]

tell

[F]

me the story of how you swing the connector in the grayest of gardens your tongue hanging free from your mouth. Down at the mer clinic we wait open to take home cure the cuddling cows the crackle tight but it's making you pure. Flowers for engine

[D]

to manage.

[F]

This beloved never known till you finish. 1, 2, 6 and 5

[B]

my.

[F]

Bloom so bl I love you

[D]

I

[F]

love you see my ear

[D]

C. Make

[F]

a run close to you to deal your departure to make sure your nailed tears across the up north Gl. His own run away from you now but I will stand new to breathe in your vapor. His pieces and pieces hearts they us

[A]

all

[F]

plead there's a failure we wait for savior believe knowing nothing. Wavering flowers from and beyond love to your vision. You back the love that you've never known you've only this present. Straight to white delayments news are we born this way. The fear I love.

[D]

You.

[F]

Love you.

[A]

That was Emma Ruth Rundle right here on Livewire performing her song blooms of oblivion from her 2021 album, Engine of Hell. Speaking of albums, Emma has a new full band album coming out in the fall of this year. So look for that. And that, my friends, is going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guest, Sachi Kol and Emma Ruth Rundle.

[B]

Laura Hadden is our executive producer, Heather D. Michel is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Our technical director is Eben Hoffer. Hazik Bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor and our house sound is by Dee Neil Blake, Ashley park is our

[A]

production fellow, Valentine Keck is our operations manager, Andrea Castro Martinez is our marketing associate and Ezra Veenstra runs our front of house. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Al Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This week's episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Hazik bin Ahmad Fareed.

[B]

Additional funding provided by the James F. And Marian L. Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Justin Olson of North Plains, Oregon.

[A]

For more information about our show or how you can can tune into our podcast at your leisure, visit livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.

[B]

PRX

[G]

this show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o-o o.com that's o d o o.com

[A]

Wouldn't it be amazing to have a piping hot episode of Livewire delivered right to your heart and ears each week? Well, guess what? That can happen when you subscribe to the Livewire podcast feed, and you'll get the joy of surprising conversation every week. So go ahead and do it. It's super easy. You click on the button at the top of your podcast app and bam. You are Livewire subscribed. And if you're still, you know, feeling the love, if you're enjoying the show, hey, maybe you could hook us up and leave us a quick review that'll help more people find out about Livewire. And thank you.

[B]

From prx.