Scaachi Koul and Emma Ruth Rundle

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank
Episode: Sachi Cole and Emma Ruth Rundle
Release Date: May 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this emotionally charged episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank, host Luke Burbank engages with two remarkable guests: Sachi Cole, a senior writer at Slate and co-host of the popular podcast Scamfluencers, and Emma Ruth Rundle, a multidisciplinary artist known for her haunting poetry and music. The episode delves deep into personal transformation, creative processes, and the intricate dynamics of relationships.

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Segment 1: Uplifting News with a Twist

Timestamp: 02:51 – 07:33

Luke begins the show by sharing uplifting yet unconventional news stories:

1. Snakebite Antidote Research

   • Elaina Passarello introduces a groundbreaking study published in Cell magazine, highlighting the efforts of Tim Freed, a dedicated snake enthusiast from Wisconsin.
   • Notable Quote: “It’s an incredible example of personal passion contributing to scientific advancement.” – Luke Burbank (04:53)

2. Innovative Urinals for Female Runners

   • The UK-based company Pequil has developed urinals tailored for female runners, reducing wait times before marathon events.
   • Additionally, Pequil is pioneering an eco-friendly initiative to use collected urine to fertilize wheat, potentially producing up to 200 loaves of bread from the London Marathon alone.
   • Notable Quote: “It’s brilliant to think that the nervous wheeze of thousands of women are helping a good cause that is very British.” – Susan Farrell, London Marathon Runner (07:33)

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Segment 2: In-Depth Conversation with Sachi Cole

Timestamp: 09:23 – 25:57

Sachi Cole opens up about her latest book, "Sucker Punch," which chronicles the end of her marriage and her journey towards self-reinvention. The discussion touches on her upbringing, cultural dynamics, and the complexities of divorce.

1. Childhood and Family Dynamics

   • Sachi grew up in Calgary with loud, argumentative South Asian parents, learning early on that such interactions were a form of communication rather than conflict.
   • Notable Quote: “I grew up in a really white area with loud, argumentative South Asian parents. So I learned really fast that that temperament does not take outside of my family dynamic.” – Sachi Cole (09:58)

2. Marriage and Cultural Clash

   • Her marriage to a white man highlighted contrasting communication styles, leading to significant strain.
   • Notable Quote: “It’s tough on a marriage when you want to destroy the other person.” – Sachi Cole (11:20)

3. Divorce and Personal Transformation

   • The process of divorce was both isolating and liberating for Sachi, reshaping her identity and relationships.
   • Notable Quote: “I started to gain a reputation amongst my friends as a divorce doula.” – Sachi Cole (24:15)

4. Insights from "Sucker Punch"

   • Sachi discusses how her book serves as a cathartic exploration of her past and a blueprint for her future, emphasizing the importance of storytelling in personal healing.
   • Notable Quote: “The only thing I had after my marriage ended was the story of how it ended.” – Sachi Cole (23:31)

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Segment 3: Audience Engagement – Relationship Red Flags

Timestamp: 27:01 – 30:25

The Live Wire audience is invited to share their observations on relationship red flags. Sachi Cole provides insightful commentary on common warning signs:

1. Control and Manipulation

   • Kelsey highlights the red flag of partners who claim ownership over their significant other’s actions.
   • Notable Quote: “Whenever somebody says that they made their partner do something… that was a red flag.” – Sachi Cole (27:27)

2. Serial Dating and Codependency

   • Laura points out that constantly dating without periods of being single may indicate underlying codependency issues.
   • Notable Quote: “If somebody is dating somebody who's never single, like they're just a serial dater, that might be a red flag.” – Sachi Cole (28:33)

3. Imbalanced Enjoyment in Relationships

   • Scott observes that if one partner consistently has more fun than the other in social settings, it may signify deeper relational problems.
   • Notable Quote: “If somebody is having more fun with their partner than they are, that’s a red flag.” – Sachi Cole (29:33)

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Segment 4: Intimate Session with Emma Ruth Rundle

Timestamp: 31:19 – 50:58

Emma Ruth Rundle shares insights into her new poetry collection, "Bella Vista," and performs live readings accompanied by her improvised piano music.

1. Creative Evolution and Poetry

   • Emma discusses her transition from writing song lyrics to crafting standalone poetry, emphasizing the distinct creative processes involved.
   • Notable Quote: “Poetry has a visual art form to it, which is very much their own.” – Emma Ruth Rundle (32:20)

2. Writing "The Star Maker"

   • She reads her poem "The Star Maker," inspired by Surrealist painter Remedius Varro’s artwork, reflecting themes of solitude and existential contemplation.
   • Notable Quote: “The painting is called the Star Maker.” – Emma Ruth Rundle (37:02)

3. Personal Struggles and Sobriety

   • Emma opens up about her five-year journey of sobriety and how writing poetry served as a therapeutic outlet during and after her struggles with addiction.
   • Notable Quote: “I do not eat, but drink on silence and Lacrimosa.” – Excerpt from "Bella Vista" (48:48)

4. Live Performance – "Blooms of Oblivion"

   • Emma delivers a soulful rendition of her song "Blooms of Oblivion," blending folk and ambient sounds to evoke deep emotional resonance.
   • Notable Lyric: “Flowers for edging on something to manage this belong by now… I love you see.” – Emma Ruth Rundle (47:08)

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Closing Remarks and Upcoming Guests

Luke wraps up the episode by previewing next week's guests, including Jamie Loftus, a writer and comedian known for her podcast 16th Minute of Fame, and Hari Kondabolu, an acclaimed comedian with a unique performance angle.

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Conclusion

This episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank offers a profound exploration of personal growth through adversity, the power of storytelling in healing, and the intricate dance of human relationships. Through heartfelt conversations and evocative performances, both Sachi Cole and Emma Ruth Rundle invite listeners to reflect on their own lives and the stories they carry.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “I grew up in a really white area with loud, argumentative South Asian parents...” – Sachi Cole (09:58)
• “It’s tough on a marriage when you want to destroy the other person.” – Sachi Cole (11:20)
• “Whenever somebody says that they made their partner do something… that was a red flag.” – Sachi Cole (27:27)
• “The painting is called the Star Maker.” – Emma Ruth Rundle (37:02)
• “I do not eat, but drink on silence and Lacrimosa.” – Emma Ruth Rundle (48:48)

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the rich discussions and emotional depth presented in the episode, providing a clear and engaging overview for those who haven't had the chance to listen.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we're talking to Sachi Cole about her latest book of essays. It's called Sucker Punch, and it talks about the end of her marriage, among other things. Now, that's interesting because it's the follow up to a book she wrote a few years ago that was a big bestseller, which was about the time when she got married. So we're really kind of getting both ends of the experience here. Then we're also gonna hear some poetry and music from multidisciplinary artist Emma Richard Ruth Rundle. Her work has been described as chilling and beautiful. Her new poetry collection is called the Bella Vista. And when Emma came out to read some of the poetry, she actually brought a physical record player to the stage to kind of underpin the poetry. And it was so cool. I cannot wait for you to hear this. I gotta tell you, this week's episode of Livewire is gonna hit a whole spectrum of emotions, which, you know, in Livewire talk means it's gonna be a good one. So don't go anywhere. It starts right after this. Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally irresponsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Elaina Passarello]

From prx, it's Live Wire. This week, writer Sachi Cole.

[Sachi Cole]

I mean, I was excited to, like, grow up and win a fight. I had never won a fight before. I was the youngest in my family. So, like, I was fighting, but I lost every single one. And then I got older and I was like, sweet. I'm gonna kill a man.

[Elaina Passarello]

Poet and musician Emma Ruth Rundle.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

I was reading too much Hemingway, and it all started with that Ken Burns documentary. And I was lonely. And you. I was like, this guy would be a great boyfriend for me.

[Elaina Passarello]

And our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elaina Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Lou Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in to Livewire. From all across the country. We have a really fun and kind of varied show for you this week, which we like to do first, though, of course, before we get to that, we've got to kick things off, like we always like to with the best news we heard all week. This, of course, is our little reminder that there is Good news happening out there in the world. It just takes some digging sometimes, but we do that for you, and we pass it along. Elena, what is the best news you heard all week?

[Elaina Passarello]

Well, you're gonna have to do a little bit of digging in this story itself to find the good news, because we're gonna start with a fact that is anything but fun. Did you know, Luke Burbank, that according to npr, snakes kill tens of thousands of people a year still, and 10 times that are severely injured by venomous snakes, like paralysis, loss of limbs, blood clots. It's still very much a human issue.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm very afraid of a snake biting me, but I assume that was one of those things that, you know, they. They would say, like, you're more likely to get hit by lightning than for a snake to bite you. I would assume that my fear was overblown, but it sounds like it's the exact right amount of blown.

[Elaina Passarello]

Well, I mean, where you live. I know where you live. That's not a threat. I just know where you live. I think you're.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

I don't think there are a lot.

[Elaina Passarello]

Of venomous snakes, but in other parts of the world, like developing countries or the tropics, it's definitely more of an issue. But. Yeah, so. So wouldn't it be nice if there was some kind of an antidote, like a vaccine? But. So there's a problem with that dream, and that's that you need to have some materials, you need to have some chemicals that kind of. This is the sciencey part, that compute with humans and compute with a human immuno response. And really, the only way to get those chemicals is to get them from a body that has survived a snake.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, no.

[Elaina Passarello]

Yeah. So the CEO of CenteVax said his team was looking for, quote, a clumsy snake snake researcher. Someone who fooled me once. Shame on the snake. Fooled me twice. Drive me to the er but turns out that there is a lifelong snake enthusiast in Wisconsin named Tim Freed. And he's always loved snakes, and he's been letting snakes bite him for 24 years, since 2001, because he sort of had a similar dream. He could kind of combine his love of venomous snakes and his interest in them as a species with helping the better good of the human population.

[Luke Burbank]

So just being a test case, this thing that, like, no other person would probably sign up for, he has been.

[Elaina Passarello]

Bitten by dozens upon dozens upon dozens of snakes. We're talking black mambas. We're talking two cobras that sent him to the E.R. we're talking water snakes. We're talking snakes with names that I can't even pronounce. And these two forces, this super body and this company, have been working together. And a study was just published in Cell magazine that says they are getting closer to actually having this kind of universal remote snakebite cure, thanks to the sacrifices of Tim Fried and the work of modern science. Which is pretty cool, right?

[Luke Burbank]

Wow. Well, that is incredible. Shout out to Tim and all the people doing that research for getting ever closer to this universal vaccine. I don't know if you are a marathoner or a half marathoner or a fun runner, Elena.

[Elaina Passarello]

No.

[Luke Burbank]

Have you been out? The answer is, how about this? Have you attended events where there are people of all genders, and you've noted that the line for the women's restroom is longer than for the men's restroom?

[Elaina Passarello]

And that's Ani DiFranco concert. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

It's particularly noticeable if you've ever been to, like, a race, because right before you're about to go on a marathon or a half marathon or whatever it might be, sometimes you got a little bit of nervous energy. You feel like you've gotta go. Well, there is a company in the UK called Pequil, and their whole thing is to build these urinals that are specifically designed just for female runners. And this means that, first of all, the way it's designed is much faster for someone with that physical body. Just the interior of this urinal and the fact that it's just dedicated to women runners means that they have a place they can go. They don't have to wait in some interminable line before the race. So these piqual urinals have been a big hit. Right. But now they're taking it to another level. They're working with some folks over in the UK for this upcoming London Marathon to take all of the urine that goes through those piquel urinals and actually use it to fertilize wheat growth. And they think that the thousand liters of urine that they're gonna harvest from this can grow. Wait for it, Elena. 200 loaves of bread. Now, if they were able to harvest the urine from all, like, 5,800 people who finished the London Marathon on a typical year, that would be 3,142 loaves of bread.

[Elaina Passarello]

Oh, my God.

[Luke Burbank]

Now, listen, I know that this. I can hear in your voice the suspicion, Elena, this is maybe not bread. That sounds particularly appetizing to you.

[Elaina Passarello]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that I would not.

[Luke Burbank]

Like to eat, but I guess it's the principle of the matter, right? It's this idea that we can. We can lower our sort of footprint in a lot of different areas and that, by the way, there are many people cited in this article who seem really ready to try this bread out when it's all done. They're very excited about it. I thought I would present you maybe the most British sentence I've ever seen. A runner who's gonna be participating in the London Marathon named Susan Farrell said, quote, it's brilliant to think that the nervous wheeze of thousands of women are helping a good cause that is very British. Anyway, people having a more convenient way to relieve themselves and some good coming from it at the London Marathon. That is the best news I heard all week. All right. Our first guest is a senior writer at Slate and the co host of the hit podcast Scamfluencers. Her first book was the bestseller One Day We'll All Be Dead and None of this Will Matter, which feels somehow sadly, even more relevant as a title here in this year than it was back when it was written. That book covered, among other things, her marriage. Now her latest book of essays, which is called Sucker Punch, covers, you guessed it, the end of that marriage and also what it's like to reconstitute yourself after, like, an essential fact about your life has changed forever. Sachi Cole joined us at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon to talk about all of this. Take a listen.

[Sachi Cole]

Hi. Oh, my God. I haven't been to Portland in eight years. It's so nice to be back.

[Luke Burbank]

Welcome back.

[Sachi Cole]

Glad to have you.

[Luke Burbank]

Nice to have you here.

[Sachi Cole]

I love Portland. I love Portland. Audience. This is the only city where I can get this many white people to listen to me at once. So I, like, love being here.

[Luke Burbank]

It's one of our core competencies here in Portland is white people showing up for things.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, it's really nice.

[Luke Burbank]

Here's what I'm curious about. Your childhood in Calgary. What was your experience? Were you a happy kid? Were you anxious? What was the scene for you growing up?

[Sachi Cole]

I grew up in a really white area with loud, argumentative South Asian parents. So I learned really fast that that temperament does not take outside of my family dynamic. But I was raised by lunatics, proudly.

[Luke Burbank]

But you, you write in the book that, like, your family was having a lot of pretty loud arguments, but that was also just how you communicated. It didn't mean what other people thought it meant.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, I think, you know, and I think this is somewhat cultural. There are differences in how certain white people fight and how all brown people fight. So when we argue, like, that's just like tea. Like, we're just. That's just what. We're having a conversation. We're having coffee. We're having a little snack. Like, it's nothing. So rarely in my family did fights have any consequences. Anybody. That was just how we communicated. And so then when I grew up and I married a white guy, then I was like, oh, he's not good at this, and I'm so good at it. And I realized pretty fast that that wasn't gonna work.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Like, that was a sort of a muscle that you had been exercising since in utero. Right.

[Sachi Cole]

Listening to my mother scream at anybody, I was like, this is music.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. I think you write in the book that, like, these things that you develop thinking they're gonna really be great in adulthood and be really useful turn out to really not be that helpful.

[Sachi Cole]

I mean, I was excited to, like, grow up and win a fight. I had never won a fight before. I was the youngest in my family, so, like, I was fighting, but I lost every single one. And then I got older, and I was like, sweet. I'm gonna kill a man. It's tough on a marriage when you want to destroy the other person. I find he's fine. He's fine. First of all, everybody relax.

[Luke Burbank]

You write, I think sort of jokingly, but not that your dad is a menace to society.

[Sachi Cole]

That's 100% accurate, but a close menace. Do you know how many times he's had his credit card compromised this month? He keeps buying fake furniture from Facebook and then calling me and being like, I saw these two armchairs. They were $70.

[Luke Burbank]

Two armchairs for $70 on the TikTok.

[Sachi Cole]

If he finds out what TikTok is, I'm going to kill myself. Like, I don't have it in me to manage that. I'm white knuckling it with the iPhone.

[Luke Burbank]

That's bad enough right now. What's your mom steal? Exactly. What's, like, their dynamic and sort of would you go to one or the other as a kid if you needed, you know, I don't know, anything. Friendship protection.

[Sachi Cole]

We went for mom. We went to mom for everything. Our mom did everything. She cooked, she cleaned. She was the person you talked to if you had a problem. She was the person you cry to. She's still around. I don't know why I'm talking about her. Like, she's dead. She's very much alive. I have received several text messages from her today. But my dad was just like comedic relief, I would say. And that was also the dynamic that I understood. That's how families worked, right? Women managed everything. They did all of the real work. And then men would swoop in and be like, do you want to go to the mall? And I wanted to go to the mall.

[Luke Burbank]

I want to talk after the break about the very miracle of your existence, the fact that you in the book, Right. Jesus probably shouldn't even be here, right? How's that for a forward promotion? It's Livewire Radio. We're talking to Sachi Kol about her new book, it's Sucker Punch. We'll be back with much more livewire in just a moment. Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood, and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their website and grab a [e-mail] welcome back to Livewire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank. We are at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. This week we're talking to Sachi Cole about her new book, Sucker Punch. You write in the book that your mother will not admit to this, but in fact, it's fairly miraculous that you're here because your mother was going in to the doctor for one sort of thing and found out that a different sort of thing was going on.

[Sachi Cole]

This is my favorite story. This is a testament to my fortitude. I think My mom got pregnant with me pretty late. She had a bunch of miscarriages after my brother. My brother's 12 years older than me. My brother was born in India, so they emigrated to Canada in the late 70s and the early 80s. So my parents tried to have another kid. And they couldn't do it. They couldn't do it. But she went to the doctor. She was supposed to get a hysterectomy. And they did her checkup and they're like, well, we can't do the surgery unless you want us to terminate.

[Luke Burbank]

So they canceled the hysterectomy because there was a child in there.

[Sachi Cole]

You she'd already had one fallopian tube removed.

[Elaina Passarello]

Wow.

[Sachi Cole]

So my father. Disgusting. Somehow managed to get one by, which fills me with a rectitude I can't even approach. But I really think it is about me, not about you.

[Luke Burbank]

I believe they call that high motility.

[Sachi Cole]

I don't need to know that.

[Luke Burbank]

That's the medical term.

[Sachi Cole]

I don't need that information.

[Luke Burbank]

Good for you. So. But in the movie version, Sachi, in the movie version of your life, every day is now a gift.

[Sachi Cole]

Oh, shut up. It's not like, what do you mean?

[Luke Burbank]

Because you weren't even supposed to be here. And now it's just like, all.

[Sachi Cole]

You're right. I had such a close call to not be around for this. I can't believe I missed it. I could have not been alive for this phase of history. That would have been fine. I wouldn't have known. This is all in hindsight now.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, it's a good point. Actually, you mentioned something in passing in the book that I don't think is further unpacked, but you talked about not liking the moon.

[Sachi Cole]

I don't like the moon.

[Luke Burbank]

What is your problem with the moon?

[Sachi Cole]

I think the moon is always it. Like, first of all, it's so bossy. I don't like that. It tells me what's gonna happen to the ocean. I don't like. I think it does something to my period. I don't know what. I don't like the moon. I just. There's something onerous and ominous about it. And when it's full, I don't like looking at it. And I think it gets upset. And that's when things go wrong.

[Luke Burbank]

Huh. That is an interesting theory.

[Sachi Cole]

You can see why the publisher was like, let's not unpack that.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Let's just.

[Luke Burbank]

And you're like.

[Sachi Cole]

You're like, just say it and then go.

[Luke Burbank]

But you're like, I'm fighting for at least to get a mention.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Speaking of your writing and your style of writing, one of the things that I thought was really interesting in this book is talking about the kind of journalism that you've done in the kind of memoir you've written in the past, where we are at a moment where a lot of writers, their life is like, also their content. And as you write in the book, that can become complicated when your life takes unexpected turns. Did you realize at some point, kind of early in your career when you're writing a lot of personal essays and a lot of things through your perspective that you were like, okay, I'm pretty much locking in on this career path where I am myself a product in a way?

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, No, I didn't think about it. I was 22. I was just happy to, like, pay my rent. And at the time, you know, I'm 34 now, so, you know, 10, 12 years ago @ the time, that was like, all digital media was producing, like they were so intent on getting young women to engage in confessional work. And some of us wanted to do it. I wanted to do it. That was my choice. And I wrote this whole book about my life and what I thought my life was and the theory I had on my own existence. And then the book came out. And a couple years after that, I realized everything that I thought I knew about my marriage, about myself, about my sense of self, about my family was false. And they were these stories I told myself because they were safe. It was safe to be in those stories that my husband loved me and that my family was rigid. There was safety in that. Even though the rigidity was frustrating to me, it still felt safer to accept. Well, I have to stay in this marriage because my parents will never get their heads around the divorce. I'm the only divorced person in my family ever.

[Luke Burbank]

Wow.

[Sachi Cole]

So, you know, my grandmother got married when she was 14. She was arranged. My mom got married at 24. She was arranged, but with consent. I am 34. It is a hard won battle to die alone in my apartment at this age. I've earned it. Yes, but the bartender in the back clapping, hey, buddy, I see you. You and me white knuckling it.

[Luke Burbank]

We pay him in free books at the end of the show.

[Sachi Cole]

You can have two sucker punches for that, thumbs up. But I had these ideas and they were so deeply entrenched, even though I couldn't identify that they were. And it took all of it, dismantling, everything falling apart. I moved to the United States at the beginning of 2019. In 2020, the pandemic started. I was stuck here because I was waiting for my paperwork. While I was in the pandemic, I found out a bunch about my ex husband that turned out to not be what I thought. I knew my marriage ended, I lost my job, my mom got cancer, everybody's fine. I got a new job, my mom's in remission, and I'm divorced. It's pretty sick.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. You know something that you say in the book, which as a person who has been divorced twice, so, you know, dare to dream, Sachi.

[Sachi Cole]

I kind of feel like if you're gonna do it twice, you should do it 40 times. Like it's either one or 100. I don't, I'm not like, they call.

[Luke Burbank]

That the Elizabeth Taylor principle. Literally, like, there's no, there's no more half steps. This comes as tough news to my girlfriend who is in the audience tonight. No, but here's what you said in the book is that getting divorced is really embarrassing.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And that's what we don't talk about. It's just embarrassing to have to go around to the people who came to your wedding and all the people who, and in your case, you wrote an entire book about it. And then you have to like walk that back. It's hella embarrassing.

[Sachi Cole]

Mortifying. Can you imagine? Okay, I'm gonna throw this party about this ludicrous concept, this like risk. I'm throwing a party about a bet. Can you come? Can you buy me a toaster for the bet, please? And all these people are gonna show up and they're gonna talk to you as if you are making the last choice of your life. There will never be a choice after this. That's how people talk about you when you get married.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, they feel like they have to, right?

[Sachi Cole]

They feel like they have to. Because no one wants to come to your wedding and be like, this will be good for now.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Sachi Cole]

I think you guys are gonna have a great three to eight years.

[Luke Burbank]

Although didn't your mom kinda do that?

[Sachi Cole]

When I called my parents to tell them I was leaving my ex husband, I FaceTimed them. My dad picked up the phone. He's the least perceptive person in the world. He had no idea what was going on. He's like, you're crying, why? And I was sobbing on the phone and my mother was not in the room, she was in the kitchen and she heard just whatever choke sob happened in my throat and she yelled out, oh, are they getting a divorce? She could have told me. I didn't know. I had no idea it was that bad. Everybody knew I was the last person who knew my marriage was over. Everybody else had an idea. There was not one person I called to say, hey, I know you came to that really expensive four day wedding bad news. Every single person was like, oh, yeah. So what else is new?

[Luke Burbank]

Well, I don't want to be glib, but I was wondering if in the sort of worst of it for you with the divorce, did you have a thought? Well, this will be something to write about.

[Sachi Cole]

It was the first thing I thought.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay.

[Sachi Cole]

I kind of, I think I kind of figured it's really disingenuous when some people who make creative work and make public work or they write or they, whatever they do and they're like, who me? Attention for baby. Yeah, that's what you're here for. What do you mean? Like, of course I was going to turn it into something, then I would have nothing. I was going to be divorced and not at least have a couple of good butt jokes to sell for profit. Okay, well, then why I should have something out of it? But it was my first thought. It was the only thing I carried out of my marriage. The only thing I brought out of it was the story of it. I did not take a dime. I took a weird bed that I don't think I have anymore and the writing chair that I used to write my stories in. That's all I took. The only thing I had after my marriage ended was the story of how it ended. It was the only thing I was able to carry. I was not willing to relinquish that, even though it did feel like I was walking deeper into this door. That spooks me. And it's weird to give up a lot of intimacy with strangers, but it's a deal I'm willing to make because it makes me feel less lonely. But I was not gonna leave it there because I had gotten nothing already. I felt robbed.

[Elaina Passarello]

When you leave and you say, I have this story, is there a question that's attached to it that starts you writing, or is it just, I want to retell this story again and see what comes from the telling?

[Sachi Cole]

It's rage, huh? I was so mad. I was so mad.

[Luke Burbank]

Is that why they're brass knuckles with a wedding ring embedded on the COVID of the book?

[Sachi Cole]

I think it's a subtle metaphor I'm able to read. I'm trying to figure out what my lawyer would like me to say about that.

[Luke Burbank]

What surprised you about being divorced? Like, what were you not expecting about that version of your life?

[Sachi Cole]

I wasn't expecting. How many women in particular would treat you like it's contagious? And I didn't expect to agree that, yeah, it is contagious.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, yeah.

[Sachi Cole]

Like you should be worried. If you spend time with me, you're patient zero. I will get you divorced in 45 minutes. Like, I started to gain a reputation amongst my friends as a divorce doula. Every couple of months, old snacky ghoul got a phone call from someone being like, I think I hate my husband. I'm like, I bet. Come here. Come here. Like, it is contagious. As soon as you start to see that there is a possibility to leave, to exit, to make a different choice, to blow your life up. And things will still be okay. You'll still go to the doctor and have your friends and build a life, and you'll be fine. But you can make another choice as soon as other people see that you can do that. They don't like that because then they have to think about their own choices. I've lost a lot of friends because I just hate their husbands now.

[Luke Burbank]

And you're done putting up with it.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah.

[Elaina Passarello]

He sucks.

[Sachi Cole]

I wish sometimes that I could go back to my delusion. It was safe there. I was really comfortable. I had a nice life, but it wasn't worth it. And once I could see it, it was impossible for me to return. And it has become pretty challenging for me to accommodate other people's delusions about their own lives and as well.

[Luke Burbank]

So it's changed your personality overall, or.

[Sachi Cole]

At least your I'm a tough hang. Like, I'm a tough hang. No one's denying it. I'm hard at a party. Like, I'm a rough first date, but, you know, it's okay. People invite me to go on the radio. So that's what I. Yeah, that's good.

[Luke Burbank]

There you go. A message of hope from Saatchi Cole from her new book, Sucker Punch. Saatchi, thank you much. So thank you so much for coming on Livewire.

[Sachi Cole]

Thanks for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

That was the writer Sachi Cole, here on Livewire. Her latest book of essays, Sucker Punch, is available right now for you to read. Hey, special thanks this episode to Justin Olson of North Plains, Oregon, who is a part of the Livewire member community and is generously supporting our show with a donation each month. And we are very grateful for that support because it's how we can keep doing this thing week in and week out. So thank you so much, Justin, for keeping Livewire going. This here is Livewire. I'm Luke Burbank along with Elena Passarello. Each week we like to ask the Livewire audience a question. This week, inspired by Sachi Cole's new book, Sucker Punch, and the kind of topic of like a relationship sort of falling apart, we thought we would ask the audience what question.

[Elaina Passarello]

Elena, we want you to tell us about a red flag that you have seen in someone else's relationship so you don't have to divulge your own red flag issues. You get to point outward to someone.

[Luke Burbank]

Else landed on a proxy case somewhere that you can pretend is not your life. No, we actually did talk to some of our real audience members at a Livewire taping reel recently. Here's what we heard from Kelsey talking about a red flag that Kelsey had observed in a relationship.

[Sachi Cole]

Whenever somebody says that they made their partner do something. So, like, I made them change their clothes or I made them go get.

[Luke Burbank]

Me XYZ So that was a red flag that Kelsey has observed. This idea of trying to force somebody to do something different than they would normally. Somebody who is, let's say, your partner.

[Sachi Cole]

Right.

[Elaina Passarello]

The whole I can change him sort of mentality.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes. I have responded poorly to that historically in my relationships. Now, ironically, the other people really had a point, like I did. I had a lot, and I still do have a lot that I should change. It's not even that they were wrong. It's that usually it's difficult if you're the person who is being encouraged in the direction of change, to fully embrace.

[Elaina Passarello]

That you're a cat. You're just. Cats can't be made to do things. They just have to be convinced that they've come up with some really great ideas that they receive a lot of treats for, and then all of a sudden, their behavior changes.

[Luke Burbank]

Is this why some of my exes had to put tin foil on a lot of surfaces that I wasn't supposed to jump on? All right, here's another red flag that Laura, who attended our live show, has observed.

[Sachi Cole]

If somebody is dating somebody who's, like, never single, like, they're just a serial dater, and it's a sign that they can't be alone and they might have codependency issues, that's a red flag.

[Luke Burbank]

Strike two. I think I've been single for 20 minutes of my adult life.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Really?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. It's weird, though, because this was not supposed to turn into a therapy session.

[Elaina Passarello]

But this is interesting where we're going with this.

[Luke Burbank]

Whenever you have these sort of, I don't know, behavioral traits or things that, like, if you looked at it from 30,000ft, you might say, well, that's something to really consider. You don't realize when you're doing it, that you're doing it. You know what I mean?

[Elaina Passarello]

Right, right, right, right. Well, I mean, if a good one comes along and it's only been 20 minutes, you gotta go.

[Luke Burbank]

That's what I would think. That's, I guess, been my approach. I mean, currently it's working out. I'm very happy about that. Okay, listen, we have a final entrant here. It's Scott, who was at a show recently and was talking about red flags. If you're having more fun with their partner than they are, that's a red flag. I mean, that is. That is an issue. If you're hanging out as a group and it feels like that person is having more fun interacting with you than they are with the person that they came with.

[Elaina Passarello]

I call that the Everybody Loves Raymond factor.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay.

[Elaina Passarello]

I feel like everyone in that TV show had no interest in being with anyone else except for the tall, sweet brother. Like, they all just seemed really, like, really not interested. They're so mad at each other all the time.

[Luke Burbank]

I think that might be why I never got into that show because, you know, I was like, I'm living this in my own marriage. Why am I watching it on television? Why am I spending this one wild life to see Ray Romano have a relationship that doesn't seem to be working out?

[Elaina Passarello]

This has been a really fruitful audience card situation. Luke.

[Luke Burbank]

I do want to say thank you to the brave souls who responded to our audience question. We really do appreciate it. This is Livewire. Our next guest is a multidisciplinary artist, poet and musician who has a brand new debut poetry collection out. It's called the Bella Vista. It's described as a concept album, an addiction memoir, a family tree, and a love letter kind of all at once. Alongside all of that hard hitting stuff, she's also released music that blends folk and ambient noise and metal into something the New York Times calls patiently haunting, with NPR warning that her songs will pierce your chest and keep on going. You know, sometimes art is so good that you need medical attention afterwards. And sorry, we don't make the rules. We're just reporting what we're seeing here. Emma Ruth Rundle joined us at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to this.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Hello.

[Luke Burbank]

Welcome to the show. Emma.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Thanks for having me.

[Luke Burbank]

Were you always writing poetry but maybe mostly funneling it towards your music?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

I was not. I became interested in poetry. The last full length album I put out was called Engine of Hell. And I wanted to do something very stripped back with no effects, not a lot of instrumentation. It was going to be laid bare and the lyrics would feature heavily for that reason. So I thought, I need to do some studying. Who can I turn to? And I started getting really invested in poetry then. So in 2019, 2020. And then I kept pulling things back further and further until there was no music at all. And I was just writing poems.

[Luke Burbank]

And then if you're writing poetry that isn't going to have music because, I mean, I think a lot of us think of the lyrics to a song as being a form of poetry. But when you're writing it and there's not going to be any music accompanying it, are you coming at it differently? Does it feel different to create it?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Yeah. We can't rely on musical cues to direct emotion. And there's A visual art form to poetry on the page. And reading it also, which I didn't. I don't think I really fully realized that that would be something I would end up doing when I started writing this. So it is. They're cousins, I think, but they are very much their own.

[Luke Burbank]

You were writing this book of poetry on the road while you were touring your music. What was, like, the schedule? Like, would you go back to the hotel and, like, get out your notepad? Or how did it go?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Well, the notepad is sort of just. It's omnipresent, you know, attached at the hip. Yeah. And in the routine of traveling and performing for months at a time, it gives you this interesting perspective, being in motion. And so working on poetry, someone once said to me, is a very slow art. So it's like I could chip away at the lines in a waiting room, waiting backstage after a show in a van. And another reason for it is that it's very inconvenient to try to be working on a song on an airplane. I don't think pulling out my guitar.

[Luke Burbank]

And singing that'll get the attention of a sky marshal.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Yeah. Yeah. So it was a way to stay active in my creative practice, also while traveling.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, can we hear a poem from the book?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Sure.

[Luke Burbank]

Can you also describe for the radio audience what the process is here? Because it looks. This is a kind of a multimedia presentation, I guess.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Yeah. So the book did come with this album, which is improvised piano music, and it's inspired by Harold Budd's album of the same name, the Bella Vista. And so I brought my record player from home. Even though music is my life, I just carry this pretty cheap record player around, and I'm gonna put the music on while I read the poem.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, great. And what is the name of the poem that we're gonna hear?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Well, I'll read the Star Maker for you first. The star maker, sweet boy, unsure man. Line of a man, the most hidden being. You've not yet been discovered, not even unto yourself. What thoughts are you trying to keep out when you build your pillow fortress? And Lord, in the citadel of sleeplessness whose little army will not let you rest? The Lord God, the Father God, the doings of men who've done and been done to them as children, as brothers, as sons, three generations of war. An old song you once loved and are now tortured by drowning. The unsavory dreamer. Or the fear of wakening again into the faithless destroyer of worlds. World in which we really lived. I never want to waken as lovers. Only sometimes our eyes meet in the morning bed, and I well up because of your indescribables, the directness to your lineage of sorrows. And so short lived a moment it is. You do not hold my gaze, but you will hold my hand. I am waiting at the gate. I am sitting at the edge of the water there, in case the poet does descend, when the star maker is free and the moon is fed, in case you might make the crossing unburdened and without fear of me. I have stilled the morning chorus. I've warned the birds not to sing. I do not eat, but drink on silence and Lacrimosa. I open my mouth to become the vessel of nothingness and cast the vacuum like a long held note of shadow all around your tower. No creature here stirs. No creature here dares stir that we may behold you, most rare one, my dweller on the threshold.

[Luke Burbank]

That's Emma Ruth Rundle reading from the Bella Vista here on Livewire. Do you remember the circumstances around writing that particular poem? Or at least maybe the major sections of it? Like, what was going on for you?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Well, this poem, it's after Remedius Varro, who was a surrealist painter. And she had this painting that I became. I sort of get fixated on images or films or songs, and they kind of guide my creative process. And in this picture, this painting, there's a tower up and you can see its sort of sections that you can see inside. And there's a woman feeding a caged moon, a moon in a birdcage, spoonful of stardust. And we don't know how long this is going on, but the painting is called the Star Maker. And so I was heartbroken for a lot of the time I was writing this book. And, you know, I don't know, for some reason, that painting held significance for me.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, I was wondering about that because reading the book, it's definitely. I get a sense of you in motion and also grieving. And, you know, I've read that this is a book also about addiction that you were dealing with. Do you feel comfortable talking about what that sort of looked like for you? And also, were you sober when you were writing these poems?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Yeah, I was. I'll have five years this year.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, congratulations.

[Sachi Cole]

Thanks.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Yeah, the managing addiction, it's something that never ends.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, you were. You were writing this, looking back on a time when you weren't sober. And did you get in the process, like, insights into those parts of your life? Like, kind of like looking back, observing it from now a Somewhat safe distance.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

I think writing, art, music, it's always for me, a great way to take experience outside of yourself, put it into something with form, and then you can examine it and kind of reintegrate it in a different way.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Emma Ruth Rundle about her new book, the Bella Vista here on Livewire from prx. I am a noted literalist when it comes to interpreting poetry and things. And I noticed, Emma, that you have two different poems in the book. One is I read too much Hemingway. And then one is called Too much Hemingway. Were you in fact reading too much Hemingway?

[Elaina Passarello]

And how much is too much Hemingway?

[Luke Burbank]

And when do you know it's too much Hemingway?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Okay, well, this is. Yes, I was reading too Too much Hemingway. And it all started with that Ken Burns documentary.

[Luke Burbank]

Sure, that'll do it.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

And I was lonely and, you know, I was like, I think this guy would be a great boyfriend for me.

[Luke Burbank]

Whoa, that's really interesting.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Well, he's not living, so, you know, we can't get too close.

[Luke Burbank]

2025 Hemingway.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Yeah. So I just kind of went through a really intense Hemingway phase. I got. I was into the. Watching the Ken Burns. I was really into Ken Burns documentaries for a while and then started reading the books. And then I thought it was kind of a funny title. You know, it's just. It was humorous. And then one thing I learned about writing poems or writing a collection is that when you have something generative and self referential within the book, it helps to pull the whole thing together and feel cohesive. And so I tagged on the second one a bit later. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Can we hear another poem from the book?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Sure. We're going to hear the title track, the Bella Vista.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, this is Emma Ruth Rundle here on Livewire.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Rip up this book, my love. I wrote it for you. So that crumpled pages of refuse worthy thinking might lift from the floor and bloom Peony and chrysanthemum rightfully placed upon your shoulders. Words and thoughts aren't enough. They aren't even close to right. I wish I'd never known any language at all other than the giving of simple gifts. Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Emma Ruth Rundle recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. We're not done, though, hanging out with Emma Ruth Rundle just yet. After we take a quick break, she is going to be performing one of her songs for us. So do not go anywhere. Welcome back to Livewire Radio for prx. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elaine Passarello. Okay. It is once Again, time for one of my favorite parts of the show, and that is when we play a little station location identification examination. Here's how this works. I quiz Elena Passarello about a place in America which also happens to be a place. Livewire is on the radio, and Elena tries to guess the place that I am talking about. Here's hint number one. This town was the subject of the Middletown studies. Sociological research was first conducted in the 1920s. The name Middletown was meant to suggest the average or typical American small city. Now, in fact, there are a lot of places in the US Named Middletown, but the researchers were interested in an idealized, conceptual American type. And so they actually concealed the identity of this city by referring to it by Middletown. Sometime after the publication, the residents of this city began to guess that the research was about their own town, that the book was about them.

[Elaina Passarello]

So it's a smart town.

[Luke Burbank]

It's also the birthplace of the comic strip Garfield by Jim Davis.

[Elaina Passarello]

Ooh, is it Madison, Wisconsin?

[Luke Burbank]

It starts with an M and it's in the Midwest, but we're looking more Indiana. How about Go, Eagles?

[Elaina Passarello]

Oh, go. It's Muncie in here. That's right, it's Muncie.

[Luke Burbank]

I was gonna throw a little Dave Letterman in there, but I knew that would just be.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

That's right.

[Luke Burbank]

That'd be too easy for you. Yes, it's Muncie, Indiana, where we're on wbstfm, Ball State.

[Elaina Passarello]

Ball State, where they have the David Letterman School of Communications. And the cornerstone says from David Letterman, dedicated to see students everywhere.

[Luke Burbank]

That's my kind of broadcaster. Shout out to everybody tuning in in Indiana on wbstfm. All right, before we hear a song from Emma Ruth Rundle, here's a little preview of next week's episode. We are gonna be talking to writer, comedian, and podcaster extraordinaire, Jamie Loftus. Jamie's latest podcast is called 16th Minute of Fame. And I love this podcast so much. It is, like, scientifically engineered for my synapses. What Jamie does is goes after these kind of bizarre main characters on the Internet, people who just came out of nowhere and then suddenly were being commented on. They were the center of the discourse. And what Jaime does is she says, well, what happened in the 16th minute? You know, of course, everyone gets their 15 minutes. I think Andy Warhol's credited with that. And so Jamie goes and finds them and interviews them and then kind of expands out, like, opens the aperture on what this really meant about us as a society. Then we're gonna hear comedy from our friend Hari Kondabolu. He has performed all over the world, and yet there is one place that he is forbidden from performing. And the person doing the forbidding, his mother. And then we're gonna get some music from experimental folk rock, Portland legends Blitzen Trapper. Three extremely good reasons to tune in to next week's episode of Livewire. Okay, let's get back to this week's musical guest, shall we? Now, before the break, we were talking to Emma Ruth Rundle, who was sharing some of her poetry with us and a little bit of the process of writing that poetry. But she's also a well regarded musician and was nice enough to play us some of that music as well at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon. So here is some of that. Take a listen. We were hoping to hear a song. Could we hear some of your music as well?

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

So the song I'm going to play is called Blooms of Oblivion, and it's from that record of very stripped down stuff. That was heavy lyric and yeah, it's a real uplifting number for you.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Emma Ruth Rundle on Livewire.

[E]

Judas come close to me Missing visions tell me the story of how.

[Luke Burbank]

You.

[E]

Swing the connector in the grayest of gardens, your tongue hanging free from your mouth. Down at the Merton clinic we wait open to take home your cure. The cuddling cow, the crack on the tide you say but it's making you.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

Pure.

[E]

Flowers for edging on something to manage this belong by now 1, 2, 6 and 5 and bloom so BL I love you see.

[Emma Ruth Rundle]

See.

[E]

Make a RA close to you to deal your departure to make sure you're nailed to the ground on the earth glare of touching me a treat is his own Run away from you now but I will stand on to breathe in your vapor. His pieces and parts they dissolve, plead there's a failure we wait for savior believe you knowing nothing Flowers from and beyond you back the love that you've never known. You won't leave this present strength. Are we born this way? The fear I love getting there I know you.

[Luke Burbank]

Are. That was Emma Ruth Rundle right here on Livewire performing her song Blooms of oblivion from her 2021 album, Engine of Hell. And that, my friends, is going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests, Sachi Cole and Emma Ruth Rundle.

[Elaina Passarello]

Laura Haddon is our executive producer. Heather D. Michel is our executive director. And our producer, producer and editor is Melanie Sevchenko. Our technical director is Eben Hoffer. Hazik bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor and our house sound is by Dee Neil Blake, Ashley park is our.

[Luke Burbank]

Production fellow, Valentine Keck is our operations manager, Andrea Castro Martinez is our marketing associate and Ezra Veenstra runs our front of house. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Eyal Alves, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This week's episode was mixed by Eben Hofer and Hazik Bin Ahad Fareed.

[Elaina Passarello]

Additional funding provided by the James F. And Marian L. Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Justin Olson of North Plains, Oregon.

[Luke Burbank]

For more information about our show or how you can tune into our podcast at your leisure, visit livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. Wouldn't it be amazing to have a piping hot episode of Livewire delivered right to your heart and ears each week? Well, guess what? That can happen when you subscribe to the Livewire podcast feed, and you'll get the joy of surprising conversation every week. So go ahead and do it. It's super easy. You click on the button at the top of your podcast app and bam. You are Livewire subscribed. And if you're still, you know, feeling the love, if you're enjoying the show, hey, maybe you could hook us up and leave us a quick review that'll help more people find out about Livewire. And thank you.

[Elaina Passarello]

From PRX.