W. Kamau Bell, Jane Marie, and Y La Bamba (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank – Episode Summary

Title: W. Kamau Bell, Jane Marie, and Y La Bamba (REBROADCAST)
Host: Luke Burbank
Release Date: November 8, 2024
Description: Live Wire, hosted by Luke Burbank, blends an eclectic mix of conversations with artists, comedians, writers, and cultural observers. This episode features comedian W. Kamau Bell, journalist Jane Marie, and indie band Y La Bamba, along with engaging listener interactions and insightful discussions.

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Introduction and Best News Segment

The episode begins with Luke Burbank addressing the listeners amidst a confusing and unsettling week, emphasizing the show's commitment to fostering joy and connection. He shares a heartwarming story about the Nationwide Trophy Recycling Program in Madison, Wisconsin, which repurposes trophies for nonprofit organizations, ensuring they continue to honor deserving individuals without contributing to clutter or waste.

Luke Burbank [03:56]: "The National Trophy Recycling Program says you bring your trophy in, we will take it apart, make it into a new trophy, and give it to a nonprofit... So your trophy, it's not taking up room at your house, but it's also not gone forever."

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Discussion on Cicada Emergence

Elaina Passarello presents fascinating news about the Double Brood Summer, where trillions of cicadas are emerging simultaneously in Illinois. This rare event has led to multiple sightings of blue-eyed cicadas, a phenomenon so uncommon that only a few have been reported in over a century.

Elaina Passarello [04:00]: "This summer I am going to participate in Double Brood Summer, also known as the cicada apocalypse."

W. Kamau Bell [07:06]: "There are a lot of scientists who are still saying, this is an anomaly inside an anomaly. We should still consider it a one in a million event."

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Interview with W. Kamau Bell

Introduction

W. Kamau Bell joins the show to discuss his latest project—a Substack newsletter titled "Who’s With Me?" He delves into how Artificial Intelligence (AI) has misrepresented his comedic style and the broader implications for comedians and intellectual property.

AI and Comedic Identity

Bell expresses frustration over AI-generated content that attempts to mimic his comedic persona, highlighting a specific incident where an AI-produced George Carlin podcast failed to capture the essence of Carlin's work.

W. Kamau Bell [25:03]: "They put out an hour of material that was like, this is an AI George Carlin. And it was an hour of George Carlin. And of course it sucked."

Protecting Legacy and Intellectual Property

He discusses his proactive efforts to protect George Carlin's legacy by collaborating with Carlin's daughter, Kelly Carlin, and taking legal action against unauthorized AI usage.

W. Kamau Bell [25:23]: "Kelly sued them to establish a precedent that you're not allowed to take existing intellectual property that people still own and use and turn it into an AI thing."

The Future of AI in Comedy

Bell shares his concerns about AI potentially replacing comedians and the importance of maintaining the authenticity of human creativity.

W. Kamau Bell [27:06]: "I think you could do it in two years... The only comfort I have is that I'm old enough that I'll be dead before all this stuff really happens."

Notable Quotes

W. Kamau Bell [12:55]: "The VIP room of the Debbie Kamau Bell Experience. Yes, it's the champagne room of the Debbie Kamau Bell. You can get a lap dance, let me be clear."

W. Kamau Bell [16:49]: "Anti racism was like the belly shirts of 2020—too soon. It was like a trend, like a wave that a lot of people got on."

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Interview with Jane Marie

Introduction

Journalist Jane Marie discusses her book, "Selling the Dream: The Billion Dollar Industry Bankrupting Americans," which exposes the detrimental financial impacts of multi-level marketing (MLM) schemes such as Amway, Mary Kay, and Tupperware.

The MLM Structure and Its Pitfalls

Marie explains the pyramid-like structure of MLMs, where the vast majority of participants lose money while only a minuscule percentage profit.

Jane Marie [37:18]: "Probably 0.01% [of participants make money]. 99.9% of people... are going to lose money in this."

The Illusion of Opportunity

She critiques the deceptive allure of MLMs that promise financial freedom without requiring significant qualifications, exploiting the deeply ingrained belief in the "land of opportunity."

Jane Marie [38:38]: "They say, actually, you don't need to have a high school diploma. You can be a felon. You don't even need a green card. You can do this because this is the land of opportunity."

Historical Context and Evolution

Marie traces the origins of MLMs to pioneers like Brownie Wise, who introduced the party plan with Tupperware, and discusses how modern MLMs have adapted to mainstream markets while maintaining exploitative practices.

Jane Marie [39:59]: "She started these parties that were... the majority of at least like women's products and MLMs are on a party-based system."

Real-Life Impact

Through research spanning seven years, Marie highlights the severe financial distress MLMs inflict on their participants, who often invest their life savings with little to no return.

Jane Marie [42:35]: "I've never seen a moment where an MLM is doing poorly and they evaluate their own product. Never."

Notable Quotes

Jane Marie [36:05]: "There’s people right at the top... At the very bottom are eager, hopeful, optimistic, sometimes desperate folks like all of us."

Jane Marie [43:41]: "The real pitch, the real sale is recruiting. You’re not walking around town with a cigar, you’re roping your business."

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Listener Interaction: "What's the Wildest Scam You Fell For?"

Live Wire engages listeners by sharing responses to their question about the most outrageous scams they've encountered.

Notable Listener Responses

1. Fake Currency:

   Listener Reese: "Someone paid me fake money that looked perfectly real. On the back, it said, 'In Glob we Trust.'"

2. Snail Mucin Misconception:

   Listener Lara: "I've been using snail mucin on my face for years because a podcast host swore by it, but realized there’s no difference."

3. Gym Barcode Trick:

   Listener Alex: "At a gym with barcode entry, someone pasted a chip bag's code on a lanyard and used it to access the gym for months."

4. YMCA Sneaking:

   Luke’s Mother: "She sneaked into the YMCA by pretending to have left something, despite initially not knowing it was free for her age group."

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Musical Guest: Y La Bamba

Performance Overview

The indie band Y La Bamba takes the stage to deliver a captivating performance featuring their latest work, "Crema de Melon." Their music is described as a blend of powerful lyrical content and innovative sonic elements.

Elaina Passarello [46:59]: "This is Elobamba on LiveW."

Reception

The audience is treated to an engaging mix of melodies, showcasing the band’s unique style and emotional depth.

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Closing Remarks and Upcoming Episodes

Luke Burbank wraps up the episode by thanking the guests and listeners, acknowledging supporter Fawn Livingston Gray, and teasing upcoming episodes featuring poet Joy Sullivan and writer Carvel Wallace, as well as more musical performances.

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Conclusion

This rebroadcast episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank offers a rich blend of insightful interviews with W. Kamau Bell and Jane Marie, engaging listener stories about scams, and a memorable musical performance by Y La Bamba. The discussions on AI’s impact on comedy and the insidious nature of MLMs provide depth and relevance, making this episode both informative and entertaining for new and returning listeners alike.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. We have a great show lined up for you this week. First, we're going to be talking to comedian and Emmy award winning producer W. Kamau Bell about his latest writing project. It's a substack newsletter which all the cool kids are doing now. It's called who's With Me? And he's going to talk about how AI really got his comedic personality very, very wrong. Then we're going to talk to journalist Jane Marie, who's also got an Emmy award under her belt, about the new book Selling the the Billion Dollar Industry Bankrupting Americans, which looks at multilevel marketing companies like Amway and Mary Kay and Tupperware. And the book talks about the really negative financial effects that these multi level marketing schemes can have on folks. Then we're going to hear some gorgeous music from the indie band I La Bamba. We are working on a scheme here to bring you a great radio show. So stick around. It starts right after this. Hey there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. Sorry for the Voice. I'm a little under the weather this week, which is just, you know, a perfect cherry on top of everything. I wanted to mention that today's episode was originally recorded in June of 2024. So last summer, which I know feels like a long time ago. I mean, honestly, Monday feels like a lifetime ago. Do we have a Monday? I don't know. I do know that this has been a really confusing week for a lot of folks. A lot of folks are feeling shaken and unsafe and just kind of wondering if this place, this project of America had been shifting maybe subtly under our feet and then kind of all at once this week. So that now it feels a bit unrecognizable, which is a really bad feeling. So we just wanted to check in and say we love you, Livewire listeners. You know, I've had a theory of making radio that anger and outrage are the easiest emotions to generate in someone, but they're not authentic. Like they don't stick around. But joy, if you can create real joy for someone that does stick around and that can change the course of someone's day or week or, you know, maybe the course of the next four years. So if you need us, we're going to be here each week doing our best to connect people and elevate voices and create a little joy wherever we can. So on that note, let's get to.

[Elaina Passarello]

The show from prx.

[Luke Burbank]

It's Livewire.

[Elaina Passarello]

This week, comedian and television host W. Kamau Bell.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Remember when women all wore belly shirts? Anti racism was the belly shirts of 2020 too soon?

[Elaina Passarello]

Journalist and podcaster Jane Marie.

[Jane Marie]

I've never seen a moment where an MLM is doing poorly and they evaluate their own product. What they do is push it all off onto the seller and say, you're not working hard enough.

[Elaina Passarello]

With music from Elabomba and our fabulous house band, I'm your announcer, Elaina Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you so much, Elaina Passarello. Thanks everyone for tuning in from all over the country, including La Crosse, Wisconsin. We've got a great show for you this week. Of course, we've asked the Livewire listeners a question in honor of Jane Marie's book about multi level marketing schemes, which we've asked the listeners, what's the wildest scam you fell for? And we're gonna hear those answers coming up in just a minute. First, though, it's time for the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder at the top of the show. There is some good news happening out there in the world. Just gotta look for it. Alayna, what is the best news you heard this week?

[Elaina Passarello]

Do you remember a couple years ago where there was Hot Girl Summer?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes. I was not part of it, but I heard about it.

[Elaina Passarello]

This summer I am going to participate in Double Brood Summer, which is my kind of summer, also known as the cicada apocalypse.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, I have been hearing about this and seeing little online clips of the. Just swarms of cicadas, right?

[Elaina Passarello]

Yes. Literal trillions of cicadas. And when I say literal, I mean literally, like there are literal trillions of cicadas at a certain swath of the country right now. And it's kind of a unique event. The last time these two broods emerged at the same time, Thomas Jefferson was the president. So it's always a big summer when one cicada group comes up from like 13 or 17 years of dormancy. But now we have two, and they're two that haven't really crossed paths. And there's one place in the country where both broods are coming up at the same time, and that is Illinois, my friend. I know cicadas might seem kind of scary to people because they have those, like, big red eyes and.

[Luke Burbank]

And because they're terrifying.

[Elaina Passarello]

Yeah, I guess. But they are not scary to me and they are not scary to Wheaton, Illinois's Jack Bailey. For Jack, it's the most wonderful time of the 13 years. And this is Jack Bailey's first cicada emergence. Because he's only four years old, his yard has become this treasure trove. And his family goes out with him and he gets a bucket and he just kind of scoops cicadas that he likes into the bucket and then they end up letting them go, which is very cool of them. But the other day his sister was looking in the bucket and noticed that one of the cicadas had these robin egg blue eyes. And like I said, cicadas usually have these kind of like orangey red kind of like eyes, but these were like, like Frank Sinatra babies.

[Luke Burbank]

I was gonna say, is this the Frank Sinatra? This is the Paul Newman of cicadas.

[Elaina Passarello]

That's right. And then he sang Fly Me to the Moon. So they were like, that's cool. Blue eyed cicada. And then they threw it back in the yard and then they went inside and I think their neighbor was like, oh no, we've heard about this. This is really rare. It's this mutant gene situation. Although they're not even sure because there have been so few blue eyed cicadas over the past hundred plus years of people studying cicadas, they've never even collected enough to know why one in like 500,000 cicadas has blue eyes. So then they were like, oh no. And we threw it back. And so then they went back into the yard with flashlights because it had gotten dark at this point. And they found it again.

[Luke Burbank]

That is crazy.

[Elaina Passarello]

They took it to the Chicago Field Museum where hopefully its DNA can be studied. But the fun doesn't end there, Mr. Burbank. On another part of the state, in Lyle, Illinois, somebody brought a blue eyed cicada to the local arboretum.

[Luke Burbank]

What?

[Elaina Passarello]

They let that blue eyed cicada go. And then a staffer there found a third blue eyed cicada on the leaves of one of the plants in the arboretum. Three blue eyed cicadas.

[Jane Marie]

Ah, ah, ah.

[Luke Burbank]

Is it possible that blue eyed cicadas are less rare than we thought?

[Elaina Passarello]

There are a lot of scientists who are still saying, you know, this is, is an anomaly inside of an anomaly. We should still consider it a one in a million event. But like I said, there's trillions of cicadas this year. So one in a million. A thousand times a million is a billion. So the odds are a little bit greater this year just because of the sheer number of cicadas that are dropping on this one part of the country.

[Luke Burbank]

But regardless, I mean, that is just so Statistically unlikely to find three of them.

[Elaina Passarello]

If you liked 2024, just wait until 2089, when I personally am going to be 111 years old. But that co emergence of several cicada broods is going to put 15 trillion cicadas onto American soil in one double brood summer.

[Luke Burbank]

So.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Woo. Wow.

[Elaina Passarello]

Can't wait till then.

[Luke Burbank]

I know. Looking forward to it. The best news that I heard all week actually comes out of Wisconsin, which is where our station location Identification examination was this week. Madison, Wisconsin, to be specific. Where there is something called the Nationwide Trophy Recycling Program that has been set up by a woman named Janet Gray and a team of volunteers. And here is what they realized. It's really hard to throw out a trophy. Like you're going through your house and you're trying to declutter, you're trying to get in touch with your inner Marie Kondo or whatever. But because a trophy is given as an award, because there's some, usually some sort of good feelings around it, it's really hard to throw it away. So people keep them for too long, but they're cluttering everything up. So the National Trophy Recycling Program says you, you bring your trophy in, we will take it apart, but then we will make it into a new trophy and we will give it to a nonprofit so that they can then use it to award their members in one way or another. Because we all know nonprofits are often short on money. So the idea is that your trophy, it's not taking up room at your house, but it's also not gone forever. It's not in the landfill. It's still a trophy. It's still honoring someone who was listed as participant, like I was for the Greenwood Boys and girls club in 1985 when I got most improved right fielder Elena, which is a very specific award. Like they were running out of awards to give out on that Greenwood Boys and Girls Club team that year. And I still have them, by the way, to this whole point that it's hard to get rid of a trophy. I still have these trophies. These are trophies that really speak to a childhood of very mediocre athletic accomplishment. But I just can't bring myself to toss them. But now I know if I can send them to the National Trophy Recycling Program, they will live on and they will help out some people who are deserving to have their moment of award and at no cost to them. So shout out to the folks in Madison, Wisconsin running the Nationwide Trophy Recycling Program. That's the best news I heard all week. All right. Let's welcome our first guest on over to the show. He spent seven seasons as the host of the Emmy award winning CNN docuseries United Shades of America. He won a Peabody award for his Showtime docuseries We need to talk about Cosby. And his latest writing project is the substack newsletter who's with me? In which he shares his thoughts on the world, pop culture and how to fix everything. Cause he probably knows how to do that. He knows a lot of stuff. Take a listen to our chat with our friend W. Kamau Bell. He joined us on stage at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon. Hello.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Hello Portland. We meet again.

[Luke Burbank]

In your career, you're from Oakland. In your career, do you find yourself in Portland a lot?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I never ever came to Portland until I started doing stand up comedy and they were like, they need you in Portland. So I don't know if I'd ever come to Portland. And then after I came for stand up comedy and I had a TV show showing where America was like, you know, broken. I was like, I gotta go to Portland like twice. So we did two episodes of United Shades here in Portland.

[Luke Burbank]

I have been really enjoying reading your substack, which is also AKA a newsletter. Although I feel like newsletter for a lot of people, at least of my generation, feels like Ann Nabikowski sending a newsletter out, making sure someone brings decaf coffee to the fellowship hour at church. It has a weird connotation.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, you don't actually want a newsletter. So I think it's weird that the substacks are called a newsletter. But mine are like long form op EDS that I wouldn't have put anywhere else or write if I didn't have the pressure of doing it once a week. Cause people are paying me $5, but.

[Luke Burbank]

A lot of people.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's enough people to get me.

[Luke Burbank]

To go, all right, they're good, they're trenchant, they're, they're funny like you are. They talk about important things most of the time.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, no, I mean, you know, come on.

[Luke Burbank]

But I can't tell you how many writers that we've had on the show. People who have written very successful books who will like take me aside in the agreement and go low key. The most people I reach is through my substack.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, no, it is definitely like. I mean, I sort of came to it because I sort of got tired of like putting things up on Instagram and just watching fights break out in the comments. Like where it was like, I just thought this was a pretty Bird, you know what I mean? Like, and so it was really a way to go. The people, that's why I named it who's with me? The people who actually want to hear from me, who actually want to hear my thoughts and may not agree with me all the time. Why don't we just go over here? So that's what it was a way, like, why don't we just go over here? So it's the VIP room of the Debbie Kamau Bell Experience. Yes, it's the champagne room of the Debbie Kamau Bell. You can get a lap dance, let me be clear.

[Luke Burbank]

From Robert Reich, former Secretary of Labor.

[W. Kamau Bell]

From Robert Reich. Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

Who is featured in a post. I didn't just throw, throw that out of complete left field.

[W. Kamau Bell]

$6 a month to get a lap dance from Robert Rice.

[Luke Burbank]

This is a thing that I've been enjoying about reading your post though is I do feel like you managed to sort of mix the very forgettable with the kind of highbrow and sublime. Like you have this post where you're, first of all, you're roasting, I think, deservedly, the Fox TV host Jesse Watters for being so bad at math, so bad at the most basic of math.

[W. Kamau Bell]

But when Tucker Carlson can look down on you, when Tucker Carlson's like, you're not good at this.

[Luke Burbank]

But in the same post, you then also link to Robert Reich, former Secretary of Labor. I think his substack.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, yeah, I got a lot going on in here. It's a lot going on. I'm an only child. I'm a stand up comic. Yeah. That's what I like about it is that I can sort of like nobody else wants, nobody wants 1500 words of that, but I did. And if you want to read it, come check it out. But it's like because my brain sort of like does that thing where it makes these connections. And so it's a way and forever in my career people like edit out the, like the tangents. And so now I get to be tangent full instead of tangent free.

[Luke Burbank]

I love that stuff. When someone's like, it's too long of a story. I'm always like, you know, give it to me. And in fact, we gotta take a quick break. When we come back, I wanna talk about the post that you basically said is the thing you would like to say when you're out promoting your career and things you work on, but there's never time for it. And basically what your experience has been as a creator in Hollywood, in the television industry. So we're Going to get the full download from W. Kamau Bell in a moment. This is Livewire radio from prx. We're at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland. Back in just a moment. Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops and events. Check out their website and grab a [e-mail] hey, welcome back to LiveWire from PRX. We're at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello. We're talking to W. Kamau Bell, the television host, the writer, the stand up comedy person. Also now the proprietor of a substack, which is really good reading. And as I was saying before the break, I always like to get the full story. One of the posts that you wrote recently was about how when you're out promoting your various projects, there's a certain kind of time limit and attentional limit and you're there to kind of try to drive some more eyeballs towards whatever.

[W. Kamau Bell]

It is, help me keep my health insurance right.

[Luke Burbank]

That I have three kids.

[W. Kamau Bell]

They like to eat every day.

[Luke Burbank]

Kids these days.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

But what you wrote in this post was that you are, as a content creator, you're experiencing something going on. We're just gonna call it Hollywood, whatever version of like making television and projects that you write in this post that it feels to you like there was a lot of noise made, particularly in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, about elevating different voices and representation and making different kind of programming. And that, that feels like that's really gone away.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Oh, yeah, that's gone. I mean, yeah. Like being anti racist was kind of like, remember when women all wore belly shirts? Anti racism Was the belly shirts of 2020 too soon. Like, it was like, it was like a trend. It was like a wave that a lot of people got on. And I had a friend own a bookstore and he told me, like a lot of people ordered these anti racist books and then they never picked them up. Huh?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. So like, and so the idea being that like it was cool for even the companies to like, I was in so many zoom meetings with white people. Like, you know, what's it like being.

[Luke Burbank]

In real life with one?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Well, as people know, I live with a white person in my house. Okay. As a part of my court appointed. Well, I won't get into it. I won't get into It. I don't want to get into it. I don't get into it. You know, it was like all these. I got all these calls from people, we want to do more. And then a lot of it happened to a lot of black people. And then a lot of those projects that got big headlines for being greenlit never were made. And you remember the article about the thing being greenlit, but you don't remember that it was never made. And then the other part of it is that now the same attacks that are going on dei, Diversity, Equity, inclusion in Florida are also happening all across America and happening in Hollywood. So a lot of the execs who run these companies are the same sort of white people always run these companies. And so it was, oh, is that cool now? Oh, we're in. Oh, it's not cool. And so now basically the only way to get something pitched is like, is, was somebody murdered? Were they preferably a white lady and. Or is it like a celebrity or established intellectual property? You know? No. No offense to anybody. No offense to anybody who's associated with it. I will probably check it out. But to hear that Jerry Seinfeld is making a Pop Tarts movie, like, that's what Hollywood wants. Like that. Because first of all, hopefully somebody dies in it. I hope somebody dies in it.

[Luke Burbank]

Tony the Tiger dies.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Maybe the secret behind Pop Tarts, somebody died. But. And then I'm like, how about that anti racism stuff that I do? No. Okay, good. Part of the reason it started substack is like, I'm not. I thought I'd be doing different things at this point in the year. I'm not doing those things. I've made a joke. But I do have three kids elected every day, so I can't, like, well, I'll just wait until racism's cool again.

[Luke Burbank]

Right. Well, that's what I'm wondering is how.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I mean, I'm sorry. It is cool. You're right. You're right not to react. It's still totally cool. Thank you. One person in the back.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, I think if you knew the exact answer to this question, you wouldn't be writing the substack, I guess. But how do you sell something that is meaningful and we need to have when the larger structures aren't buying it?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I mean, so I. Right now I'm sort of remembering times in my life where I thought, it's funny, like when my career was over and, like, what did I do then? So I don't think my career is over. I want to be clear. But I Like, what are times in my life where I went back and I thought, oh, maybe this is the end? And there's been a couple times, notably after my first TV show, Totally Biased, was canceled. And so I'm like, all right. So, like, I hadn't done stand up for, like, five years after my Netflix special came out, Private School Negro, still available for streaming. After that came out, we had our third daughter. I was like, I'm gonna take a break. I'm gonna come back in 2020. When it's an election year, 2020 is like, ha, ha, ha ha. And so then I thought I didn't do standup again because I was like, I don't know. Low ceilings with people laughing in my face? No, thank you. So this year I started doing standup again. So I'm like, you know, I feel fortunate that I've always been a person. And we'll see if people remember this. Who knows how to make his own gravy? Remember that dog food commercial? Old people?

[Elaina Passarello]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I've always been a person who's like, okay, I can't. I've sort of been really fortunate that there have been times when corporate Hollywood has wanted me to be in there, but I've never wanted to depend on that. So now I'm at a point like, okay, we gotta go make our own gravy.

[Elaina Passarello]

You do so many things. You write books, you do the television work, you do the comedy work. Now that you're doing, like, a weekly deadline of a substack where you can write whatever you want for a pretty extended word count, is it changing the way you're making other things or thinking about making other things?

[W. Kamau Bell]

No, it's just like. There's just a lot of. It's like a soup stew in my head, and there's a lot of things that just wouldn't go anywhere. And so like yesterday when Jesse Waters made fun of fast food workers for making $20 an hour, and I was like, forget this dude, FCC.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I was like, forget his mom, too. I was like, mother, forget that whole family.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, can you. Can you remind us of these? The quick math that he did?

[W. Kamau Bell]

So he said. So he was on the PBD podcast, which, if you don't know the PBD podcast, it's like, what if Joe Rogan wore a suit? That joke is perfect, by the way. If you know that that joke is perfect. I don't normally say that, but that's a perfect joke. It's not even about the laugh. It's about the writing. It's about. So. So he was on the podcast and he's just sort of talking and he's any. He says that like, so if you're making $20 an hour, that's like six figures, right? See, everybody. Everybody who laugh has worked for hourly wages and has done the math on every hourly wage. No, no, that's not even close to six figures. And the people on the podcast are like, no, no, no, that's like. And they do the math quickly. Like, if you work in 50 weeks, it's like 40 grand a year. He's like, okay, but if you're married and your wife is also working 20 for $20 an hour, that's like. He does. He actually said, that's like 100 grand. They just told him it was 40 grand. Within seconds, he had said, 40 plus 40 is. Is 100 grand. And as I'm watching this, I turned to my 9 year old. I was like, what's 40 grand plus 40 grand? She goes, 80 grand. I go, thank you. She goes, why did you ask me that, Dad? I go, because there's this white man who says, 40 grand plus 40 grand is 100 grand. To my. To my daughter's immense credit. She goes, well, that's something.

[Luke Burbank]

There she is.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Because, like me, she starts with diplomacy.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

And so I was like. Like, in the old days, I would have tweeted about it a lot. I would have been like, but, you know. And I still go on Twitter just to sort of like kick the dust off. But I don't like. So I sent out one tweet about it and I was like, this is what the substack is for.

[Luke Burbank]

One of the other posts you're talking about, there was something that was released that was supposed to be an AI program doing George Carlin. Although then I thought I heard that it wasn't actually like, you're friends with Kelly Carlin, George Carlin's daughter.

[W. Kamau Bell]

First of all, thanks for humble bragging for me. Yeah. Yes, I'm friends with Kelly Carlin, George Carlin's daughter. I texted her. What did you say? Am I friends with Bruce Lee's daughter? Yes, I am. Yes, I am.

[Luke Burbank]

So first of all, I never actually understood. Did somebody use an AI program to generate like a George Carlin hour, or was it someone doing an impression of what an AI would do? Do you know?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I don't think they knew, but the important thing was that Kelly. So they said, it's this podcast called Dudesy. And they were saying that the whole podcast was Run by AI. There are people in AI who said, this is not how it works if it was run by AI, but we don't really know. But the important thing was they put out an hour of material that was like, this is an AI George Carlin. And it was an hour of George Carlin. And of course it sucked. Like, just. Of course. But it also was just. They didn't ask. Kelly Carlin's whole, like, most of her professional life. Not most, but a big part is about protecting her dad's legacy and also expanding her dad's legacy, which is why you young people still know who George Carlin is. So you don't go, it's not like. It's not like we're Abbott and Costello aren't using this anymore. You know what I mean? It's like, George Carlin is still an active intellectual property concern. And these. And this podcast is hosted by one of the. This. Hosted by comedy writers and a comedian, like, you should know better. So I was offended, as a comedian to be like, you shouldn't do that. And so I immediately reached out to Kelly Carlin, and she was really, like, upset about it. And I was like, I am a private in the George Carlin Army. I will do whatever you need me to do. And so writing that substack was about being a private in the George Colony Army. Cause I was like, you know, and I would even, like, I had such a good time. She was like, I'm being reached out to by all these people in the media want to talk to me. And I was like, here's some jokes you can say. Like, I was sending her, like, talking.

[Luke Burbank]

Points, punching it up.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I was like, hey, whatever you want. She's like, I'll quote you. Don't quote me. That's all yours. So it's the least I could do for what her dad did and what she does for her dad. So. Yeah. And they filed a law. Yeah, yeah. And she. She sued them. And it's important because she sued them to establish a precedent that you're not allowed to do that.

[Luke Burbank]

Right.

[W. Kamau Bell]

You're not allowed to take existing intellectual property that people still own and use and turn it into an AI thing. Which is super important, because AI is coming for all of us.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, that's. That's the thing. There was this New York magazine, like, piece slash experiment where they took three comedians. They took you, Maria Bamford and Gary Goleman.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And they had AI write jokes in your respective styles.

[W. Kamau Bell]

They asked me first, so they were like, would you like to do that. And I was like, yeah, let's see what happens.

[Luke Burbank]

I read the jokes that the AI.

[W. Kamau Bell]

The George Carlin stuff was better. The George Carlin was better.

[Luke Burbank]

It was. I mean, first of all, it must be weird to have somebody tell you there's a W. Kamau Bell style of comedy.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. Cause I haven't figured it out. I'm still trying to figure out what is this thing I do. Yeah. So Vulture reached out to me and said, we want to do this. I said, sure. I don't know what their process was, but I definitely know that, like, it's like, all AI. You know, I have a couple of comedy specials, a couple comedy CDs. I've written a lot. So I was like, yeah, sure. It happens. The thing that was so funny to me is that this material that came out, there was no mention of race or racism in any of it. And I was like, I don't know that I've talked three minutes on stage ever in my life without at least going, white people. You know what I mean? Just something. Just something. And so it was like, I was like. And when I said. I was like, oh, this is how I know AI is designed by white people. Like, they told it to steer. Like, for some reason, they told it to steer clear of that. So it was like. There was just no sense of. Like, it had nothing to do with anything. I read it to my kids. We all. We all laughed at it. We did not laugh with it. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Does that give you. As a. As a comedian, do you feel like you've at least got a head start on this program? Like, it can't do Kamau Bell right now, but could it in 10 years?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I mean, I think you could do it in two years. You know what I mean? First of all, I. I just don't. I think, no, it doesn't give me any comfort. The only comfort I have is that I'm old enough that I'll be dead before all this stuff really happens.

[Luke Burbank]

I find myself thinking that.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Does anybody feel comfortable? Yeah.

[Elaina Passarello]

You got some Cheers.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. Some other comic said this, and I wish I had said this, and I wish I could quote him, because I don't remember. But it was idea. Like, we thought AI was going to, like, do the work while we created the art, but somehow it's been flipped. And again, I did not say.

[Luke Burbank]

I think Stavros said that's what.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yes, Stavros said it. And I thought that was like. But we're going to do the work, and the AI is going to be making the art. And I think it's totally backwards. And so for me, I think, do we always be aware that AI is coming for all of our jobs, and it's coming to distract us from the outs, from what we need to focus on in the. In the world?

[Luke Burbank]

Well, let's end things on that message of hope. W. Kamau Bell, everyone. That was W. Kamau Bell right here on Livewire. Make sure to subscribe to his substack like I do. It's called who's With Me? Hey, it's Luke. This week, we would love to thank and honor Livewire member Fawn Livingston Gray of Portland, Oregon. Fawn is supporting Livewire with a donation each month. And it is a very big deal to us because it's donations like that that help us keep this whole thing going. So a big thanks to Fawn this week for supporting the show. This is Livewire. Of course, each week we ask our listeners a question. This week we asked, what's the wildest scam you have fallen for? Elena, what are some of the listeners saying about scams they've fallen for?

[Elaina Passarello]

These are great because some of the scams are kind of big global scams, you know, like, and some of them are just one person trying to pull something off on somebody else. So pretty great. Of the smaller variety, Reese says, when I worked as a cashier, someone paid me in money that looked perfectly real, and I didn't even think twice about it. But later that day, I was counting the money and I saw it was fake because on the back, it said, in Glob we Trust.

[Luke Burbank]

That is not a sophisticated counterfeiting ring.

[Elaina Passarello]

That's like a little bit of a. A dig. It's too misspelled to be true.

[Luke Burbank]

That's one of my, like, slightly irrational fears, is that I will get a hold of a counterfeit or something, and then I'll be going around saying, I didn't make this, but I got it from somewhere and I don't remember where. And they're going to go, yeah, sure. Like, I don't want to be holding the hot potato. I don't want to be holding the counterfeit money, because it looks like then I was the one who said, in Glob, we Trust. It's also probably a sign that I spend too much time in casinos that this is a primary fear of mine getting a crooked $20 bill. What is another scam that one of our listeners fell for?

[Elaina Passarello]

This one's on the bigger sort of social level, I have to say. I've fallen for this scam too. Lara says I've been putting snail mucin. Luke, do you know what snail mucin is?

[Luke Burbank]

Do I want to know is the real question.

[Elaina Passarello]

Yeah, it's the nice name. Mucinex will give you a little bit of a clue. It's snail snot. It's just slime. The slimy trails that snails use to perambulate. It's become this kind of skin care trend. And Laura says I've been using snail mucin on my face for years because some woman on a a podcast swore by it. And recently I realized that there has been no difference. And you, you are over this call, Luke, this video call. You are looking at a mucin slathered face.

[Luke Burbank]

One more scam that one of our listeners fell for.

[Elaina Passarello]

I love this one from Alex. Alex says one time when I was working at a gym that used barcodes to that people had to scan for entry into the gym. Someone just pasted the code from a bag of chips or something onto a lanyard and was let through for months until we noticed. I still think about it. I'm trying that, man.

[Luke Burbank]

That's great. I would love it if like, I don't know how their system worked, but if you get like number, you know, number, number as people go through and then you just see a picture of a bag of like Fritos.

[Elaina Passarello]

Yeah, this is some wavy lays coming in to do some sit ups.

[Luke Burbank]

Pretty smart. My mom for many years would sneak into the YMCA in her town until she learned that at her age it's free. She would put one air like one headphone in and pretend like she had left something in the YMCA and go back in even though she had was going in for the first time.

[Elaina Passarello]

Oh, no.

[Luke Burbank]

Susie B. For the win.

[Elaina Passarello]

That's as good as the chips thing, right?

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you to everyone who sent in a response to our listener question. We got another one for next week's show coming up in just a bit. First though, it's time for our next guest, who I have been a fan of for years. She's a Peabody and Emmy award winning journalist, former producer for this American Life, and the host of the podcast the Dream. Her latest book, Selling the Dream, the Billion Dollar Industry Bankrupting Americans, exposes what is really going on with multi level marketing schemes. And it is not great, actually, which you're probably not shocked to hear. Publishers Weekly calls it an urgent and riveting expose. Jane Marie joined us on stage at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon. Hi, Jane, it's me.

[Jane Marie]

Hi.

[Luke Burbank]

Hi. Welcome to the Show.

[Jane Marie]

Hello, friends.

[Luke Burbank]

I want to talk about this book.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Luke Burbank]

Because first of all, when I saw it on the list of things we're going to be talking about this season, I circled it because multi level marketing schemes, if you will, were a very big part of the environment I was in as a kid growing up as like evangelical Christian. Z, I feel like you also spent your whole life preparing to write this book. Your grandmother was a Avon lady in Michigan.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, my great grandma Maxine, who I dedicate the book to. I also the rest of my family, when they get involved in mlm, they say they got a new job, which is fine. We're all poor people from Flint, Michigan. We're all having fun.

[Luke Burbank]

Did your great grandma Maxine though, sounds like she got a little something out of her sort of Avon lady status. It wasn't money, but I mean, kind of an enjoyable experience she did.

[Jane Marie]

She lived off of the government, mostly her adult life. She had her first kid when she was 14 and then had four by the time she was 21 or two. And then my grandpa left. So she struggled a lot. And I think the Avon experience gave her an opportunity to feel like some agency, to feel like an adult in the world doing a thing. And there's no barrier to entry. So she didn't have to have eyes diploma. She didn't have to have like tons of money. And she did it for like 20 years. The results of it that I saw were just like stuff in my stockings at Christmas.

[Luke Burbank]

Which actually kind of gets back to the book. Because one of the things that defines what we might call a pyramid scheme or a multi level marketing operation is that the products that they allegedly sell are really not being sold widely in the wider world. You don't go into a store and buy that. It's mostly being purchased by the people that are selling the product because they're being tricked into buying it from someone higher up the food chain than them. Hence the Avon in the stocking.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I'll say. This is also in the book. Spoiler alert. Amway. Anyone heard of it?

[Elaina Passarello]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Michigan company, a Michigan company. They did not have a product when they started their company. There was no product. They just knew that they liked this business model. So they started the business model and then they went searching for a product and they bought a soap company, which.

[Luke Burbank]

Is just soap, but soap that was going to be more expensive, way more expensive than just going into the store and buying. Which is another thing that should tip someone off that they're in a multi level marketing situation.

[Jane Marie]

Put it In a dudes. Like also there's all these rules about like you can't even like put it in your friend's salon or something, you know, like you can't advertise these things anywhere. It's so exclusive. And I get it. Also I get it though. Like I grew up with a milkman. Like I grew up with people knocking on your door about, you know, selling you plates and stuff. I feel like there was that value in that back in the day.

[Luke Burbank]

And the money was made by design by the people who got other people to sign up. Other people. This is called the downline, right?

[Jane Marie]

And there's people right at the top. And then there's a level, she's making.

[Luke Burbank]

A pyramid symbol for the listeners triangle.

[Jane Marie]

And then there's like a level. So that's like friends and family up here. And then they recruit five or ten people and then they're told. Those people are told to get two to five or 10 people. That keeps going. At the very bottom are eager, hopeful, optimistic, sometimes desperate folks like all of us, right, who are ready to sign up and say I'll pay 1,99 for this starter kit to become my own business owner, to start my own empire. And you do that, you fail. Someone else does it, they fail. Someone else does it, they fail. And the company itself for the most part with MLMs, doesn't make money any.

[Luke Burbank]

Other way than signing up new people to try to throw themselves against the sort of castle walls. We'll just keep coming up with shapes to describe of this financial model. What is the percentage of people who make money through multi level marketing?

[Jane Marie]

Oh, probably.01%.

[Luke Burbank]

So 99.9% of people that answer the call from Lulu Row or Centi Candles or whatever are going to lose money in this.

[Jane Marie]

There's a statistics that like 97.6 lose over like $100. And then between that and 99% nothing, no gain. And then 99% to 100 or whatever make a dollar. And then there's like a teeny tiny. Does it remind you of any country that you live in?

[Elaina Passarello]

Well, well phrased.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, I mean this is something that I feel like it's easy to kind of want to be dismissive of people that get caught up in this. And oftentimes now with the Internet and with social media, it's somebody that you kind of like sort of remember from high school or kind of met somewhere and then they're hitting you up wanting you to take on this business opportunity. But you're saying, Jane, that we are Living in an economy in the United States where there are so many people that are so economically disadvantaged, that this pure craziness that is you can make unlimited amounts of money selling questionable workout tights. It catches on with people because those people have so few opportunities to try to do something.

[Jane Marie]

I don't think it's crazy. I think it's what we've all been told from kindergarten. I don't know if you all grew up in this country, but you were told you could be an astronaut, you could be a doctor, you could be anything you want. Just have the right mindset and go out there and work hard, hard. And these schemes tap into that very directly. They say, actually, you don't need to have a high school diploma. You can be a felon. You don't even need like a green card. You can do this because this is the land of opportunity. And I believe they exist solely because we've all bought into that. And perhaps it was true for some moment in time, but it's not.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire Radio. We're talking to Jane Marie. Her book is Selling the Dream. The Billion dollar Industry Bankrupting Americans. It's about the multilevel marketing world. Was there ever like kind of a good old days of this? Like maybe before the Internet. Before it was so, like, now it feels very desperate and very high pressure for the people. But was there ever a time when it was just kind of like, do.

[Jane Marie]

You want to talk about Brownie?

[Luke Burbank]

Brownie Wise, which is a real name, not just something I said because of an aphasia. The person who is kind of credited with pioneering the idea of parties to sell this stuff. She came up with Tupperware parties.

[Jane Marie]

She came up with the party plan. There were no parties before. And now it's like the majority of at least like women's products and MLMs are on a party based system? No. She was awesome. She was an aeronautics executive, a saxophonist. She had an advice column in the Detroit paper. She was a single mom with one son all by herself. And a guy came to her door trying to sell a mop. And she was like, you suck at this. And she called the boss and was like, I can let me run this whole thing. And then she hooked up with Earl Tupper. That's his real name.

[Luke Burbank]

He was the Earl of Tupper.

[Jane Marie]

The Earl of Tupper.

[Luke Burbank]

It was an honorary title.

[Jane Marie]

And she started these parties that were. I don't know how many of you have been to a Tupperware party. Yeah, they're so fun.

[Elaina Passarello]

So fun.

[Luke Burbank]

I will say that one. I know that the way the structure of the Tupperware party, it's still an mlm, but people do have Tupperware in their house.

[Jane Marie]

I know.

[Luke Burbank]

Does that at least put them in some special category?

[Jane Marie]

Well, now they sell it at Target to trick you into thinking it's not an mlm.

[Luke Burbank]

How does that work then?

[Jane Marie]

Well, you can still sell it to your friends and neighbors. You can still rope your business.

[Luke Burbank]

Did they achieve escape velocity though? Like as a pyramid scheme where they.

[Jane Marie]

Beauty countered it at first. I think they're a makeup MLM that's at Sephora. But it's the new tactic. It's like mainstreaming. They're trying to mainstream and say like, this is a thing you see at the store. Right. So it can't be that bad. It doesn't matter what they're selling at the store.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, some of the stories that you profile in the book though, a lot of people who are already starting out in a pretty bad financial spot really lose like a lot of money in this. Like, it's not kind of just a funny like Amway, you know, we had that person at my church trying to sell Amway. It's like people really suffer real harm from this. Which is what I got from the book completely.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, there's lots of stories about people giving their entire life savings over to these companies. And it's part of the business model, right, is to say if you're failing. I've never, in all my research, I've been doing this for like 7 years now in all my research, I've never seen a moment where an MLM is doing poorly and they evaluate their own product or their business structure. Never. What they do is push it all off onto the seller and say, you're not doing enough, you're not working hard enough. And then they sell them some class or something.

[Luke Burbank]

Or tools.

[Jane Marie]

Tools, right? With Amway, it's called tools. And they just sell them more and more crap to get better at their business. That was designed to fail from the beginning.

[Luke Burbank]

The sales pitch on this is you're busy, you have a family, you need to support your family, but also have time to be with them. And this is a way for you to just kind of have this, make this money and but fit your real life into the rest of your life. And what you point out is that it is really time consuming if you're going to try to be an achiever in these worlds of these MLMs, there's no vacation time. Because if you're not selling the people above you aren't getting kicked up to them. Like, it's a very intense, very hard job when the whole sales pitch is, this is like a fun thing that you'll make some extra money at.

[Jane Marie]

If that was true, I would be in. Right. Like, if I could do that. But the fact of the matter is that the real pitch, the real sale is recruiting. So you're not like, you're not actually walking around town with a cigar, cigarettes, you know, you're not doing that. You're.

[Luke Burbank]

That was my idea for an mlm and it was people walking around with open cigarettes on the streets of Portland. Jane Marie, everyone. The book is selling the Drake. That was Jane Marie right here on livewire. Her book selling the Dream. The Billion dollar Industry Bankrupting Americans is out now. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarella. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, you are going to hear some incredible music from E La Bamba. Stay with us. Livewire is sponsored by Secret Aardvark hot sauce, celebrating 20 years of awesome sauce, plus a whole line of hot sauces and marinades. From their classic aardvark habanero hot sauce to their fiery reaper smoked and red scorpion, there's a sauce for every heat lover. Stay connected by following Secret Aardvark on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok for recipes, hot sauce fun and more. Welcome back to livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passero. Okay, before we get to our musical guest this week, a little preview of what we are doing next week on the show. We are going to be talking to the poet Joy Sullivan, who currently resides in Portland, Oregon and has written this collection of poetry that's just gotten so much attention. It's called Instructions for Traveling west, which is not just a great name for a book of poetry, but it actually describes Joy's sort of personal journey, uprooting her life in Ohio to move out to Oregon. Before that, when she was a kid, she was living in the Central African Republic where she had a neighbor that was a monkey named Mendelssohn. These are real things I'm saying to you right now. Anyway, we'll get into all of it next week on the show with Joy. Then, speaking of fascinating listening, we're gonna talk to the writer Carvel Wallace. He's a writer and podcaster who's written for gq, Esquire, and the New Yorker. He wrote a book with the NBA player Andre Iguudala which ended up on Barack Obama's year end book list. Now he is turning the focus on himself. He has a memoir. It's called Another Word for Love and it's really incredible. Plus, we're gonna hear some music from Nashville indie rock singer songwriter Danielle Durak with a song off of her latest album, Escape Artist. This is Livewire from prx. Our musical guest this week has been called an unsparing work of sonic catharsis by Rolling Stone magazine. They've released seven albums, including their latest, Lucha. All the way from Portland, Oregon, by way of Mexico City, E. Labamba joined us at the Patricia Valian Research center for the Creative Arts in Corvallis, Oregon. Welcome to the show.

[Jane Marie]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

What song are we gonna hear?

[Elaina Passarello]

This one's called Crema de Melon. In this one, I talk about.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, it's just all my songs are collages.

[Elaina Passarello]

But there's a line of like, you.

[Jane Marie]

Can'T compare your suffering to someone else. You know, trauma's trauma, you know, it's.

[Luke Burbank]

Just like love your enemy, really.

[Jane Marie]

So that's, that's what I said.

[Luke Burbank]

It almost like singing it, it feels different. This is Elobamba on LiveW.

[Elaina Passarello]

So.

[Luke Burbank]

La da da da da da.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Da da da da da da Compared Da da da da da da da da Woo.

[Luke Burbank]

Betsy, La Bamba, right here on livewire. Make sure to check out their latest album, Lucha, which is available now. That is gonna do it for this week's episode of the show. A huge thanks to our guests, W. Kamau Bell, Jane Marie and E. Labamba.

[Elaina Passarello]

Laura Haddon is our executive producer, Heather D. Michel is our executive director. And our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Leona Kinderman and Eben Hoffer are our technical directors. And our house sound is by Dee Neil Blake. Trey Hester is our assistant editor. Rosa Garcia is our operations associate. Jackie Ibarra is our production fellow, and Becky Phillips is our intern. Our house band is Sam Tucker, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Al Alves and Awalker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.

[Luke Burbank]

Additional funding provided by the Regional Arts and Culture Council and the James F. And Marian L. Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Thawne Livingston Gray of Portland, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, visit livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Hey there, Livewire listeners. Luke Burbank here. You know how a lot of people, like, ring in the new year with a cheers or a toast? That's pretty common. Well, something kind of special is happening here at Livewire this month. As we have entered 2025, we have launched a brand new limited podcast series. It's called Damp January. Throughout the month, we are going to be going on like a little journey to try to better understand our relationship with, and by that I mean my relationship with alcohol and also drinking culture at large. It's such a big part of our society and we wanted to find out more about sort of how it's working for people. We're going to talk to friends and family and cultural luminaries who are just at various points on the booze spectrum. By the way, just a practical heads up, you're going to see the Livewire podcast logo change to something new. This is just for the month of January. Do not worry. The regular Livewire episodes that you know and love and crave are still gonna be in your feed every Friday. That's just gonna be alongside a damp January episode that's gonna drop every Wednesday. We have never tried anything like this before, but I think it is a really interesting project. Like, if somebody else made this show, I would listen to it. Okay. But nobody else did. So we're making it and we hope it's interesting to you. It's called Damp January and it's every Wednesday in January from prx.