Maturity Is Measured Through Healthy Relationships

Summary

Podcast Summary: Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

Episode: Maturity Is Measured Through Healthy Relationships

Release Date: May 28, 2026
Hosts: Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the provocative idea that true spiritual and personal maturity is measured by the health of our relationships rather than merely personal discipline or self-improvement. Bill and Scott challenge the prevalent view that spiritual growth is an individual pursuit of holiness or mastery of techniques, proposing that genuine maturity arises in relational contexts—particularly through our experiences of God’s grace and our willingness to love and be loved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Spiritual Maturity

• Scott’s Opening Challenge (00:04):
  “Spiritual maturity is not so much about our personal discipline as it is our relational health.”
  Scott points out that all of us have relationships in various states—some thriving, some broken—and suggests our spiritual maturity is intricately tied to how these relationships function.

• Bill’s Foundational Statement (00:38):
  “Christianity is about relationships. It's about a God who wants to have a relationship with humanity and does through grace.”
  Bill sets the stage: spiritual life is fundamentally relational, both vertically (with God) and horizontally (with others).

2. Grace and Relational Repair

• Scott shares a story (01:09) about how understanding grace motivated an older man in his men’s group to reach out to his estranged son-in-law—a practical fruit of grace in action.

• The Dilemma of Relational Fear (01:44):
  Bill wrestles with the difficulty of risking relationships: “I fear relationships for I might get hurt. My theology doesn't give me the hope of how to have a good relationship. And often my theology doesn't give me the answers to the bad relationships that I've experienced.”
  He posits that many are left “stuck” because their religious framework doesn’t support healing or fortifying relationships.

• Role of Grace (02:47):
  Grace, according to Bill, enables both the courage to love and the hope of healing when relationships falter, emphasizing “the Christian life is about we, not me.”

3. Maturity Measured by Relationships

• Scott’s Principle of Measurement (04:21):
  “Maturing as a person is best measured by my relationships.”
  He arranges relationships into three vital categories: with God, self, and others—all interconnected.

• Bill Urges Relational Trust (04:55):
  “Maturing is about trusting God and others with who I am so I can mature. The goal is not self improvement. The goal is maturity. And maturity can only happen in the context of relationship with God and others.”

4. From Methods to Principles

• Scott and Bill caution against focusing on technique or discipline to foster maturity.

• Bill’s Principle Example (07:50):
  “A mature leader makes significant life decisions for the benefit of others… I will know that I am maturing when the attention of my life turns from me to you.”

• Experiencing Christ Within (06:23):
  The conversation turns to Paul's letter to the Galatians—“Christ is in me”—and the importance of not just knowing but believing and acting on this reality.

  • Bill: “What if my maturing had actually to do with… the reality of my trusting who God says I am?… And then let's see what shows up.” (06:40)

5. Relational Love: Asking and Acting

• Practical Application (09:16):
  Scott suggests measuring love by asking, not assuming.
  “The best way for me to know [if I have loved my wife, Eileen, well] is ask her, ‘Are you experiencing my love?’”

• Bill On Courageous Vulnerability (09:44):
  The impact of moving beyond platitudes (“I love you, brother”) to real questions:
  “Have the courage… to ask those I influence, are they experiencing my love?… Do I have the maturity to ask?”

• Caution on Readiness (12:11):
  Bill warns: “Never, ever go to somebody and ask them if they are experiencing your love. Unless you're willing to hear their answer.”

6. Grace, Reality, and Maturity

• Bill underscores that grace forces us to confront reality—not hiding behind theology or methods.

• Scott’s Conviction (11:50):
  As the conversation gets personal, Scott notes: “I'm feeling convicted as we speak… it's time for me to go and do this with my sons again.”

7. Identity, Shame, and Growth

• Sin-Management vs. Righteousness (14:57):
  Bill: “If my theology tells me that I'm a Christian, but I'm still a sinner, I'll never mature… I become a victim of, and I become a champion of what I call sin management.”

• Maturity Measured by Love, Not Shame (16:25):
  Scott: “Instead of being measured by your shame, consider being measured by your relationships.”

• Bill’s Emphatic Declaration (16:38):
  “Paul makes these statements in Romans… I once was a slave of sin. I am now dead to the law… Are you saying, Bill, that Christians are righteous? I'm screaming that Christians are righteous. And what's the evidence of their righteousness? How well they love.”

• Scott: “And not only how well they love, but how well they're loved.” (17:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Spiritual maturity is not so much about our personal discipline as it is our relational health.” — Scott (00:04)
• “Christianity is about relationships. It's about a God who wants to have a relationship with humanity and does through grace.” — Bill (00:38)
• "Maturing is not about my learning methods that'll help me improve... The goal is not self improvement. The goal is maturity." — Bill (04:55)
• "I will know that I am maturing when the attention of my life turns from me to you." — Bill (07:50)
• “The best way for me to know [if I have loved my wife, Eileen, well] is ask her, ‘Are you experiencing my love?’” — Scott (09:16)
• "Never, ever go to somebody and ask them if they are experiencing your love. Unless you're willing to hear their answer." — Bill (12:11)
• "If my theology tells me that I'm a Christian, but I'm still a sinner, I'll never mature... I become a champion of what I call sin management." — Bill (14:57)
• "Instead of being measured by your shame, consider being measured by your relationships." — Scott (16:25)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:04: Scott reframes spiritual maturity as primarily relational.
• 00:38: Bill roots Christianity in the context of grace-fueled relationships.
• 04:21: Discussion on measuring maturity by relational health.
• 06:23: The significance of actually believing “Christ is in me.”
• 07:50: Bill introduces the principle that maturity is shifting focus from self to others.
• 09:16-10:11: Scott and Bill demonstrate practical ways to discern if others are experiencing our love.
• 12:11: Bill’s caution about being willing to hear the truth in relationships.
• 14:57: Bill challenges “sin management” approaches to spirituality.
• 16:25: Shift from shame-based to relationship-based spirituality.

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Episode Takeaways

• Relationships are the primary arena for spiritual and personal growth.
• Grace doesn’t guarantee perfect relationships but offers resources for healing and growth when things break.
• Maturity is not achieved via methods, self-improvement, or “sin management” but through trusting God, trusting others, and embodying love.
• An honest assessment of our spiritual health begins with vulnerability—asking others if they truly experience our love, and being ready to hear their answer.
• The truest evidence of spiritual maturity is not only how well we love but also how willing we are to be loved.

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For Listeners

If you want to mature in faith and influence, this episode encourages you:

• Shift your focus from techniques to relational principles.
• Have courageous conversations about real experiences of love.
• Remember, maturity is a “we” journey—God, self, and others—grounded in grace.

Transcript

[Scott]

Spiritual maturity is not so much about our personal discipline as it is our relational health. Welcome to this week's episode of Living Influence. You know, I have relationships in all kinds of stages in my life of various stages of working really well and in disrepair. And so what a great topic to talk about. My spiritual maturity is more connected to my relational health than my disciplines.

[Bill]

Grace introduces us to the significance of the relationship that God wants to have with us and that we can have with each other. If I were to make a bottom line statement, I would say this Christianity is about relationships. It's about a God who wants to have a relationship with humanity and does through grace.

[Scott]

I mean, that resonates with me. I know in a men's group that I led and I start talking about grace and God's relationship with us and you know, a few weeks later an older man will come in and he says, I called my son in law last night. I haven't done that in a long time. We're going to go on a bike ride when we're up in Chicago next. And it was just like, it's like that's what it, that's what it begins

[Bill]

to do as a fruit.

[Scott]

And yet I can still have relationships go awry.

[Bill]

I must not live my life in the fear that a relationship will go bad or I will have no relationships. What I really want to understand is how do I live my life in pursuit of those relationships that go really well, so that in those relationships that go real well, I am able to experience the promises of God for me and you. Oh, and by the way, some may not go well. Well, how do I then process what I did or what was done to me in those relationships that don't go well? Scott, there's a dilemma. It's a real dilemma. I fear relationships for I might get hurt. My theology doesn't give me the hope of how to have a good relationship. And often my theology doesn't give me the answers to the bad relationships that I've experienced. So I'm stuck. But what if because of God's grace, we actually could, you and I, as we do, we actually could experience each other's love? What if that was possible? And what if because you and I have both experienced it, some things in life with some people don't go well? How do I, how do I then trust God to heal me for what's been done to me? And how do I trust God to help me understand how my repentance can be a healing for them? These are what I would Call all elements of this amazing message of grace. They're all elements of the magic. But the ultimate goal in my mind is to understand the Christian life is about we, not me.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

And that we includes God and it includes others. When it's about me, I will always be working on how well I'm doing as compared to how well I was doing yesterday. If I could just keep doing better. When it's about me, I feel like I'm accomplishing something significant, but I'm really not.

[Scott]

So maturity and leadership and just maturity in general maturing as a person is best measured by my relationships.

[Bill]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Scott]

I just was thinking about this the other day, and I was thinking about the three relationships we have. We have a relationship with God, we have a relationship with ourself, and we have a relationship with others, and they're all connected.

[Bill]

And what's so significant in this whole process we're talking about, this process of maturing is I want to scream kind of loud without screaming. But maturing is not about my learning methods that'll help me improve. Maturing is about trusting God and others with who I am so I can mature. The goal is not self improvement. The goal is maturity. And maturity can only happen in the context of relationship with God and others.

[Scott]

I like to Talk about Galatians 2, where it says Christ is in me. And I like to talk about, you know, how do you discover Christ is in you? Is it. I. I meditate. I, you know, I, I wait for the vibration to feel right. I, you know, great, crazy things like that. And, but my answer I found in Galatians was, well, I give it a go. What I give as a go is I actually seek to say what shows up in me honestly and in humility. So that I'm not saying this is what I know is true. And, but, but it's like, this is what I'm thinking. Here's what I got going on.

[Bill]

Oh, this is good. Excellent. It's like, what if a Christian didn't just know that biblically Christ is in them, but what if a Christian actually believed Christ is in them?

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bill]

What if. What if my maturing had actually to do with. With the reality of my trusting who God says I am? And this is. You just mentioned it. And one of the things that God says is true about me is that Christ is in me. That's what he says is true about me. And I love the way you just said it. And then let's see what shows up. I mean, if it's true and I believe it's true. What if I actually could live into it? But what if I actually could live into it? What if I actually could experience the Christ who is in me by that reality being an expression of my life?

[Scott]

And so instead of talking about techniques, you know, disciplines for maturing, we're going to talk about principles in the coming weeks, right?

[Bill]

Yes, we are.

[Scott]

Let's try one on. Give me a principle. Like. What do you mean by principle?

[Bill]

Well, for instance, I'll just read this. A mature leader makes significant life decisions for the benefit of others. There's no method there. What's the method? No, there's no method there. What there is, is a principle. Here's the principle. I will know that I am maturing when the attention of my life turns from me to you. That's. And then I will know I'm continuing to mature because I will discover that I, as we just read, that I am making life decisions for your benefit, not just mine. Wow. Wow. How does that happen? If I could really understand, we just talked about it, that Christ is in me, and I could really, Scott. Trust that the evidence of his being in me might be the very thing he said, that we could love each other as he loved us, because he's in us. See, love does something. Scott. Methods. Methods keep me focused on me. Love turns my heart towards you. That's what love does. Love. Love. Love says something externally in order to

[Scott]

determine whether I have loved my wife, Eileen. Well, the best way for me to know that is ask her, are you experiencing my love?

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Scott]

And now all of a sudden, my question is now focused on another. Not on did I meet the standard of the principle or meet the standard of the technique or the discipline.

[Bill]

So just use the example you just said. I love the words you used in that. Eileen, how are you experiencing my love? You didn't make the statement. And I'm glad you didn't. Eileen, you know that I love you. No, that's. No, no, it's not a question of whether you love her. The question is, is she experiencing the love you have for her?

[Scott]

And that's where our actions end up changing from actions in order to do it right to actually actions that are actually effective.

[Bill]

Exactly. So well said. You know, I've been in a variety of churches. My last one, I've been forever because it's open door fellowship. But in a variety of churches, there's the common language. Well, Christians will say to each other, well, I love you, brother. And, and, And I learned something. I, I've. I've Learned to say to Christians rather than just say to somebody, I love your brother. Ask them a question, brother, how are you experiencing my love? You know what they do? They turn their head from me and go, I ain't doing that. I ain't doing that. I just want to use the phrase, I don't mean it. There's no intention to actually love them. I just know that as a brother in Christ, I'm going to tell you I love you. And so in a non teasing way, I'll say, but have the courage. Like you just gave in your example with Eileen. Have the courage. How would I know? Well, I won't know unless I have the maturity. Let's put it back into that context. Do I have the maturity to ask those I influence, are they experiencing my love? That's a powerful, that's a powerful concept, Scott. A powerful concept.

[Scott]

I'm feeling convicted as we speak. That I like. It's time for me to go and do this with my sons again. I've got adult sons in their 30s and 40s and I think I've done it, but because I'm sitting here thinking, okay, have I done this? I think I've done it, but I don't remember the answer, I probably ought to go do it again.

[Bill]

I always say that with a caution. Not you, Scott, necessarily, but anyone who's saying, well, I'm going to try that. Never, ever go to somebody and ask them if they are experiencing your love. Unless you're willing to hear their answer. Yeah, don't ever do that because their answer may hurt you or you may hurt them by the way they answer, no, no, that requires an integrity that says, you know what, son, I really want to know, how are you experiencing my love? And gee, dad, thanks for asking. Blow all along. Thanks for asking, dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. So I just give that caution that when we ask that question, have the personal fortitude to be willing to hear the answer. And, and if it's something that blesses you both, give a big hug. If it's something that needs attention, promise to give it attention.

[Scott]

This is like, yeah, we're playing with live ammunition, aren't we?

[Bill]

Yes, we are. Yes, we are. By the way, Scott, that's what grace does. It does. It, it, it always, it always deals with our reality. If our theology is not dealing with our reality, it's because we're not experiencing grace. Grace always causes us to deal with our reality.

[Scott]

So if I want, I want to mature like, like what, what human being doesn't want to mature? Questions people are asking is, how do I mature?

[Bill]

And tell me what to do, I'll give an answer. And let's see, by God's grace, if we can support it over these weeks. But I'll give an answer. My maturing is always related to the trust I have in God and His Word. My maturing is always related to the trust I have in others and the freedom they have to speak into my life. Because, for instance, I will never mature. This, and, and we'll go into this next weeks, but I will never mature. If my theology tells me that I'm a Christian, but I'm still a sinner, I'll never mature. I, I, I have a, I have a wrong opinion of me and a total misunderstanding of the, of Christ on my behalf.

[Scott]

Okay, so I'm going to throw a curveball. So, so you've met some very old in age ministers of the Gospel who, who will go unnamed and believed in sin that they were a sinner. How did they stay immature by this reality?

[Bill]

When I see myself as a sinner, my Christian life will center on the sin that I do. And my Christian life will center on working hard to not do the sin that I do. And my Christian life will be measured by how well I'm doing in relationship to sin. Because something's true. Scott, as a Christian for many years, if I still see myself as a sinner, I can promise you I still measure myself by my shame. And that will always trap me into immaturity. And I become, I become a victim of, and I become a champion of what I call sin management.

[Scott]

And so we're suggesting instead of being measured by your shame, consider being measured by your relationships.

[Bill]

Exactly.

[Scott]

Is that really true?

[Bill]

Absolutely. That's what we're saying. Paul makes these statements in Romans that are just unbelievably true but unbelievably hard to understand. Here's what he says. I once was a slave of sin. I am now dead to the law. He makes the statement, I now have become a slave of righteousness. Yeah. What? What? What, what? What? No, no, no. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. No, no, no, no, no. Are you saying, Bill, that Christians are righteous? I'm screaming that Christians are righteous. And what's the evidence of their righteousness? How well they love.

[Scott]

And not only how well they love, but how well they're loved.

[Bill]

Absolutely.

[Scott]

Yeah. It goes both ways.

[Bill]

Yeah. What this is doing is just triggering in us the reason we're doing these lessons on maturing. We, we, we just made a lot of statements that have to do with principles, not methods.

[Scott]

Guys, thanks for joining us on Living Influence. We love it when you comment, like or subscribe. We're going to continue these conversations on maturing and I hope to see you next week. Thanks for listening to Living Influence. We appreciate you. Just a call to action. We would love it if you would share our podcast with one or two people this week. Thanks again.