Why Mature Leaders Choose to Be Vulnerable

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

Episode: "Why Mature Leaders Choose to Be Vulnerable"

Date: June 11, 2026
Hosts: Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd explore the deep relational aspects of leadership, focusing on why mature leaders deliberately choose vulnerability. Their conversation reframes integrity as not merely a consistency between words and actions, but as a commitment to honor the trust of those under their influence. The hosts emphasize how genuine vulnerability builds stronger relationships in leadership, parenting, and beyond, unlocking environments where honesty, mutual support, and growth flourish.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rethinking Integrity: From Rules to Relationships

• Integrity as Relational, Not Just Behavioral:

  • Scott introduces the concept that integrity isn't merely about matching actions with words, but is a relational principle: “Every person who follows you, works for you, learns from you, or is shaped by you, has placed something in your hands. And integrity is what you do with that deposit.” (00:41)
  • Bill reflects on organizational cultures (including Christian circles) that attempt to enforce integrity via rules, suggesting this misses the essence: “What if integrity wasn't about a virtue that I have, but what if integrity was a relational principle?... Integrity has to do with my honoring the trust you have in me.” (01:40-02:40)

• Key Quote (Bill Thrall):

  “One of the most significant gifts you can give me is to trust me. One of the most significant gifts I can give to you… is to trust you. Integrity… has to do with my honoring the trust you have in me.” (02:52)

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2. Vulnerability as an Expression of Integrity

• Choosing to Trust Others With Your True Self:

  • Scott and Bill discuss how sharing one's own humanity and struggles creates trust. Scott shares a personal business anecdote:

    “When I trust people with my humanity and I'm vulnerable with them… I make it okay to be human. And when I make it okay to be human, the mistakes being made in the business become visible because people share them, they don't hide them.” (05:42)

  • Bill underscores that real integrity is both honoring others’ trust and giving them reason to trust you with your true self:

    “That ability to trust others requires a vulnerability in your life, which is in fact an expression of your integrity that when you get me, you get the real me.” (09:02)

  • Both note that this stands in stark contrast to the culture of hiding mistakes or flaws, especially in leadership roles.

• The Impact of Vulnerability on Organizational Culture:

  • Creating environments where being human (including making mistakes) is safe, leads to openness, fewer hidden issues, and greater team unity.
  • Scott:

    “Imagine it took them six weeks. What if it just took three days? …What if you could create an environment where people self-disclosed… because it's okay, because we're all human?” (06:52)

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3. Moving Beyond Traditional Accountability

• From Judgment to Mutual Protection:

  • Bill contrasts traditional accountability (standing over someone, focusing on shortcomings) with a more relational “standing with” model:
    • “Accountability causes somebody—when they're seated, you stand over them… But what if we protected each other in the process of dealing with our stuff?... With vulnerability, looking at your stuff together…” (12:18)
  • Vulnerability in maturity means giving access to others not just to correct, but to protect and stand with each other in limitations and weaknesses.

• Key Quote (Bill Thrall):

  “My integrity also allows me to submit to your strengths. I really believe… that God has designed others for my best.” (13:32)

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4. Application to Parenting and Family

• Integrating Vulnerability at Home:

  • Scott applies the principles to parenting, asking: “Our kids trust us, and so do we give our kids access to who we really are? ...Do they know those things? Do we make it okay?” (13:56)
  • Bill encourages parents not to hide their struggles: “Many parents are afraid to be vulnerable with their children… without recognizing that their children have the ability to love them in spite of their vulnerability. That's the key.” (14:40)
  • Bill shares a story of a leader’s breakthrough with his daughter once he shared authentic stories from his own life.

• Key Quote (Bill Thrall):

  “Don’t hide from your children. Let them know who you are.” (14:50)
  “Am I able to honor the trust my children have of me? Am I able to be vulnerable so my children will understand that I need them to trust me?” (16:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Scott Boyd (on vulnerability at work):

  “When I'm just vulnerable with my stuff, I make it okay to be human.” (06:00)

• Bill Thrall (on how he changed):

  “I lived well into my late twenties hiding who I was with the fear that you might actually get to know me. I was afraid of being known for what I knew I was hiding… But in the process of those years, I’ve learned something really critical. In order for me to honor your trust of me, I have to be real to you.” (09:36)

• Bill Thrall (on protecting each other):

  “Instead of standing with their arm around somebody and with vulnerability, looking at your stuff together... We literally have that ability to accept each other's limitations, protect each other.” (12:52)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:04-01:12: Defining integrity as relational, not just behavioral
• 02:40-03:50: The mutual entrusting of trust and how it requires vulnerability
• 04:34-07:29: Business anecdotes illustrating the impact of vulnerable leadership
• 09:02-11:14: Bill’s personal journey from hiding to openness; connection to mature integrity
• 12:18-13:46: Redefining accountability, protecting each other, and submitting to others’ strengths
• 13:46-16:02: Extending the discussion to parenting; the value of being known by your children
• 14:50-16:02: Story of leadership breakthrough with vulnerability in the family

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Tone & Language

The episode uses accessible, candid, and at times deeply personal language. Bill and Scott mix wisdom with humility and warmth, inviting listeners to reflect on their own environments—workplaces, churches, homes, families—and how true influence and maturity flow from the courage to be vulnerably authentic.

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Summary

This episode invites leaders, parents, and anyone with influence to reconsider what integrity and maturity look like in practice. Instead of projecting flawlessness, mature leaders and parents give others the gift of their real selves—choosing to trust, be vulnerable, and embrace the strengths and support of those around them. In doing so, they foster relationships built on honesty, growth, and mutual protection, both in organizations and at home.

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For next time:
The hosts hint that their next session will delve deeper into the concept of protection and standing with one another, especially during struggles and weakness.

Transcript

[A]

Mature leaders have integrity. They express that integrity by honoring the trust of those they lead. Mature leaders are vulnerable. It's evident because of their lack of hidden issues. Welcome to Living Influence. So welcome to Living Influence. I'm Scott Boyd. I'm here with my friend and mentor, Bill Thrall, and we're talking about maturity and integrity. And I have a little statement on this I want to read a little bit further. Mature leaders have integrity, but not the kind we usually mean. Not just consistency between their words and their actions, though that matters. The deeper integrity is relational. They honor the trust of the people under their influence. Every person who follows you, works for you, learns from you, or is shaped by you, has placed something in your hands. And integrity is what you do with that deposit. It's back to relationship again, isn't it?

[B]

Every time we're going to talk about this. Thank you for reminding us, all of us. Yeah. This issue of integrity, what you just said there, I love it. I want to keep echoing this because it is about relationships. I. I worked as a CPA in lots of business environments. As a person who's worked as with Christian leadership, I've been in lots of Christian organizations. And, and integrity is often a value in those organizations, whether they're Christian or not. The value of integrity. And then it's an interesting thing that happens. They then produce a bunch of rules and regulations to protect integrity. It's like, okay, now we have integrity, but boy, do we ever make sure that it's bound tight by the rules that make sure you are integrous, which, which breaks the whole point. So what if integrity wasn't about a virtue that I have, but what if integrity was a relational principle? That sounds like you and I just wrote and read. What if integrity is my capacity to honor the trust you have in me? We say in a lot of contexts that trust is key word in all of our relationships. Well, what if integrity was my ability to honor the reason you trust me? And when I say that in the context of mature Christians, and some of them are leaders, they kind of look at me and go, well, what are you trying to say? What's the essence? It sounds really good. There's a nice words, but what's the essence of it? It's this. In my opinion, Scott, one of the most significant gifts you can give me is to trust me. One of the most significant gifts I can give to you, Scott, which I choose to do, is to trust you. Integrity. Integrity has to do with my honoring the trust you have in me.

[A]

So, yeah, so I have, I have people who work for me and they, they, I somehow earn their trust and they begin to trust me. And, and so integrity is that I then trust them with me.

[B]

Good for you. That's, that's actually true. And, and it's like, wait, wait, you just turned it upside down, but it's actually true. So, so the second half of the statement you, you read were mature leaders are vulnerable. What you just said, Scott, is that you entrusting people, are giving people your trust. Now, whenever Scott, anybody, just, we're talking together, you and I, when either of us chooses to be vulnerable, we are choosing to trust the other person with what is true about us.

[A]

I think it's in Ephesians where it says anything from the darkness that is brought into the light becomes light. You know, statement kind of like that.

[B]

It's close enough.

[A]

And being vulnerable is bringing things from the darkness into the light. This is the book I'm intending to write and my title would be Lead like a Sinner. And then I think the tagline, because like, look, we're trying to scream to people, you're not sinners, you're saints. But the tagline of lead like a sinner is how leading from my humanity creates engagement, passion, creativity, focus, results. I had lunch today with a gentleman that leads six companies that do over a half a billion dollars in business. And he, he had taken over as interim CEO of one of these companies. And he says, I didn't know what it was. I knew I was taking over from the last guy and there was a reason I was having to take over from him. It took me six weeks to find it. And so this thing was kind of buried. And it's technical and I don't even know if I can describe it or if I want to, but to him, six weeks to find it. And, and, and this is the point in, in leading in, in a business, when I trust people with my humanity and I'm vulnerable with them where, with. When I've made mistakes with, you know, this, the crappy things I've done, when I'm just vulnerable with my stuff, I make it okay to be human. And when I make it okay to be human, this is really countercultural to current corporate environments. When I really make it okay to be human, the mistakes that are being made in the business become visible because people share them, they don't hide them. And imagine it took them six weeks. What if it was. What if it just took three days? And what if that happened over and over and over again versus, well, this mistake was buried by this guy for nine months. I didn't find it till I had to fire him. And then I discovered it. You know, what if you could create an environment where people self disclosed and people like. Because it's okay, because we're all human and we all will sometimes make mistakes. And so let's, let's, let's be a team and help each other. And so this leader that honors the trust of those people that trust him by trusting them with himself, he makes it, he creates an environment, a different environment.

[B]

Absolutely. And you're reflecting, Scott, on both sides of that coin called integrity. You really are. You're reflecting on both. And let's reflect back. What if the purpose of my integrity was to honor your trust? What if the purpose of my integrity was to be vulnerable to you? What if the purpose of my integrity was to allow you to have a voice in my life and experience? So it goes back to this. They're simple statements. We say them a lot. But, but, but I want to just repeat it. The question I ask a lot of people is this question, who do you trust with you? Who do you trust with you? And, and, and they'll, they'll often pause and they'll reflect and maybe they'll say their ma or a friend and they have answers. But the connection they don't make is that that ability to trust others requires a vulnerability in your life, which is in fact an expression of your integrity that when you get me, you get the real me. And I am learning personally now. I am learning, Scott. I lived way up into my late twenties, and for some people it's much further than that. But I lived way up into my late twenties, hiding who I was with the fear that you might actually get to know me. I was afraid of being known for what I knew I was hiding. Now, that's a long time ago because I've lived a long life, but that's a long time ago. But in the process of those years, I've learned something really critical. In order for me to honor your trust of me, I have to be real to you. I have to be real to you. And so the man who's talking has realized I can't do this with everybody, Scott. But those closest to me, I am very careful to make sure they know me well, that there are no hidden issues in my life causing me to move from them. Now we're talking about maturity here. This is maturity, process. So we've learned something. You know, a lot of men especially have been part of accountability Groups that never worked because what they were doing is they were disclosing their stuff, but there was no resolution to the stuff they disclosed. Here's something that's important to say in this. When we say that my vulnerability is an expression of my integrity because I'm giving you access to me, there needs to be another lines. God, I'm giving you access to me to protect me in my limitations. That's a really important aspect of this vulnerability.

[A]

So I want to say that in different words. So I'm giving them access to protect me in my vulnerabilities or in my weaknesses. So I'm. I'm giving them permission to speak advice into my life.

[B]

Absolutely. And I'm giving them something else. And we're going to actually spend. Next time we're together, we're going to spend a couple sessions on this concept of protection. But it's this. I'm actually giving them permission to stand with me in those things that I know are my limitations. Because I'm trusting their strength. Hear those words. Because I'm trusting their strengths. Here's a model that we developed in Trueface years ago, and John spoke a beautiful message called the Two Roads. And in that talk, he gave this model. Accountability causes somebody. When they're seated, you stand over them and you want to hold them accountable to their behavior. And you really press in on them because if they're part of your family or church or business, you really want to make sure they don't screw up so bad. That's accountability. And then you ask that person, stand up, please, and you ask them to stand up, and you walk over to them and you put your arm around them and you say, look at our stuff is in front of us. What if we protected each other in the process of dealing with our stuff? Here's the kicker. For many Christians, they have relationships with people and their stuff is between them. Instead of standing with their arm around somebody and with vulnerability, looking at your stuff together. Scott, I have had that privilege with you and with other individuals in my life where we. We literally have that ability to accept each other's limitations, protect each other. But. And then another talk next week or next time we're together. But we've learned something else. My integrity also allows me to submit to your strengths. I really believe, Scott, that God has designed others for my best.

[A]

So what's screaming in me, it's been screaming for a little while, is this, this principle of integrity and honoring the trust of those that you're responsible for, give to you also fits with parenting. Our kids trust us, and so do we give our kids access to who we really are? Do they know that we're someone who has a life story, too? That we're someone that has had struggles, too? We're someone that faced the same questions that they did and sometimes failed in our actions. And do they know those things? Do we make it okay?

[B]

Well, that's good, because, Scott, you're hitting right on the head. The issue is many, many parents are afraid to be vulnerable with their children because they're afraid that their children will, in fact, copy their things they're vulnerable about without recognizing that their children have the ability to love them in spite of their vulnerability. That's the key. Scott, don't hide from your children. Anybody who's listening, don't do it. Don't hide from your children. Let them know who you are. I've said this story before on one, probably one of our podcasts, but I was invited to meet with a Christian leader of an organization and make a long story short, in. In the process of our talking, he mentioned a tremendous struggle he was having with his daughter. And we got all done with the presentation, and. And I said to him, tell me more about your daughter. He said, what? And I said, tell me more about your daughter. And he looked at me like, what are you talking about? I said, well, you mentioned this struggle you're having with your daughter. And he described it. And I said to her, you know, I'm from a distance. I'm going to make a point. I don't think your daughter knows you. I think she's afraid to know you. I want to ask you to tell her three stories about who you are. And he did it. And the response she had was beautiful because it made the point. When he finished the first story, his daughter looked at him and she said, dad, that's not true. That's not who you are. I don't believe you. You just said that to make me feel better. He said, I started to cry because, truth, Bill, you were right. My daughter didn't know me. So you're right. We can make this very personal. This idea of integrity, Scott, we can bring it right into the reality we have in our own homes. Am I able to honor the trust my children have of me? Am I able to be vulnerable so my children will understand that I need them to trust me? It's an amazing lesson, and we don't want to miss the application. What an amazing day. Thank you, Lord. I think that's about all we want to say today. But thank you for listening. Look forward to our being together next time.

[A]

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