Truth Without Permission Destroys Trust

Summary

Podcast Summary

Living Influence with Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd
Episode: Why Permission Matters Before Speaking Truth
Date: July 30, 2026
Hosts: Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd

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Episode Overview

In this deeply candid episode, Bill Thrall and Scott Boyd explore the misunderstood concepts of submission and permission—especially in the context of influencing others and speaking truth. Drawing from their personal experiences and biblical models (particularly Jesus), they argue that submission is not about dominance or authority but about "letting"—letting others love, influence, and speak into our lives. This letting opens the door to real connection and makes healthy influence possible. Likewise, granting permission is crucial before truth can be shared in a way that truly reaches the heart. The conversation dives into the practical, relational, and spiritual implications of these ideas for personal life, leadership, and communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Real Meaning of Submission

• Redefining Submission (00:54 – 02:22)

  • Submission has a negative reputation, especially in church and cultural conversations, often tied to abuse of authority or gender roles.
  • Bill reframes submission not as subordination but as "letting"—to let God (as modeled by Jesus) or others love and guide us:

    “Submission just means to let. That's all the word means.” (Bill, 01:14)

  • True submission comes from the heart—not coercion. Jesus chose to let God love and guide Him even to the cross.

• Submission in Relationships (03:56 – 05:35)

  • The biblical instruction for wives to submit to husbands is often abused; the actual model is mutual, sacrificial love:

    “Imagine a woman being married to a man who loves her and is intentionally sacrificing his life for her best. Women line up to submit to that.” (Bill, 03:33)

  • Authoritarian approaches don't touch the heart—they attack the will and lead to power struggles.

• Vulnerability and Trust (06:27 – 07:11)

  • Submission creates openness for genuine, heart-level ministry and influence. Vulnerability to others is an expected risk, but crucial for connection.

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2. Submission and Influence in Practice

• Trust as Foundation (05:51 – 06:43)

  • "No one can love you until you let them." Letting is an act of trust and the beginning of true influence.

• Example from Personal Life (08:04 – 08:46)

  • Scott shares how letting his wives (first Bev, now Eileen) influence him has helped him grow:

    “I get to let Eileen now influence me. And as she does, I grow.” (Scott, 08:09)

• Implications for Work Culture (10:49 – 11:14)

  • In business contexts, trust and permission create a multiplying culture of influence:

    “As I trusted them and let them influence me, the culture begins.” (Scott, 11:06)

• Trust & Submission Go Hand-in-Hand (11:16 – 11:43)

  • There cannot be submission in environments lacking trust.

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3. Understanding Permission Before Speaking Truth

• What is Permission? (12:34 – 13:19)

  • Permission is actively granting access to our lives; even God waits for permission to enter our hearts.

    “Permission is my granting you access to me.” (Bill, 12:46)
    “No one, including God, has access to your life without your permission.” (Bill, 12:34)

• Permission as Psychological/Social Safety (13:19 – 14:35)

  • We are naturally self-protective, which makes granting permission feel risky. The principle applies at every level—from personal relationships to spirituality.

• Biblical Model—Jesus Seeking Permission (14:35 – 16:26)

  • Jesus stands at the door and knocks; He seeks permission to come in and offer relationship, not condemnation.

    “God sees me better than I do...and he stands, so to speak, pursuing my permission to let him answer my greatest need.” (Bill, 15:21)

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4. Permission, Affirmation, and Addressing Brokenness

• Honoring Personhood (16:26 – 17:22)

  • Seeking permission honors the person, reducing their fear of condemnation and opening them to affirmation and healthy challenge.

• Addressing Wounded Leaders (17:22 – 19:34)

  • To help others grow, especially those who are defensive or unaware of their brokenness, gaining even small permissions is key—start with safe topics before moving deeper.

    “You need to figure out a way for them to give you permission to anything...And once you have that permission, that's a key teaching point.” (Bill, 18:19)

• Grace Doesn’t Ignore Brokenness (19:34 – 20:25)

  • Real grace doesn't minimize or ignore sin and brokenness; it first affirms the person, then provides the solution.

    “Grace does not wink at sin, ever. It cost Jesus Calvary, so it never winks at sin. What grace does is grace provides the answer to sin but addresses first the person.” (Bill, 20:03)

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5. Honoring Resistance and Boundaries

• If Permission is Denied (21:05 – 21:53)
  • If someone says no, it must be respected—manipulation kills trust.

    “Never ask somebody, ‘Could I speak to you about that?’ if you're not willing to receive a no.” (Bill, 19:09)

  • Memorable story: A leader tells Bill, “I just want you to know I've never submitted to anyone in my life and I don’t intend to submit to you.” Bill responds, “I believe you,” and leaves, respecting the answer.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Submission just means to let. That's all the word means.” (Bill, 01:14)
• “Imagine a woman being married to a man who loves her and is intentionally sacrificing his life for her best. Women line up to submit to that.” (Bill, 03:33)
• “No one can love you until you let them.” (Bill, 05:35)
• “Permission is my granting you access to me.” (Bill, 12:46)
• “No one, including God, has access to your life without your permission.” (Bill, 12:34)
• “Grace does not wink at sin, ever. It cost Jesus Calvary, so it never winks at sin. What grace does is grace provides the answer to sin but addresses first the person.” (Bill, 20:03)
• “Never ask somebody, ‘Could I speak to you about that?’ if you're not willing to receive a no.” (Bill, 19:09)
• Memorable Story: Bill honors a leader’s strong refusal to submit by simply accepting it—demonstrating integrity and respect. (21:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:54 – 02:22: Redefining submission; Jesus as model
• 03:56 – 05:35: Submission in marriage and relationship, authoritarianism critique
• 06:27 – 08:46: Submission in friendship and marriage, practical stories
• 10:49 – 11:43: Trust and culture in business
• 12:34 – 14:35: Introducing permission—granting access
• 14:35 – 16:26: Jesus’ model of seeking permission
• 16:26 – 17:22: Affirmation and reduction of fear/condemnation
• 17:22 – 19:34: How to guide wounded/defensive people: small permissions
• 19:34 – 20:25: Grace, sin, and the centrality of affirming personhood
• 21:05 – 21:53: Respecting ‘no’ to permission; story of honoring boundaries

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Conclusion

This episode challenges traditional assumptions about submission and permission, urging listeners to see them as mechanisms for authentic relationship, growth, and spiritual transformation. Submission is about “letting”—a voluntary openness that draws on trust, leads to deeper love, and allows lasting influence. Permission is the gateway to another’s heart; without it, even truth and grace can’t reach their mark. Bill and Scott’s vulnerable storytelling and practical wisdom make the episode both personally moving and highly applicable for anyone seeking real influence—in faith, leadership, marriage, or friendship.

Transcript

[A]

For you were called to freedom. Brothers only. Do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love, serve one another. Welcome to Living Influence. I'm your host, Scott Boyd with Bill Thrall, my friend, my mentor. We've been talking about freedom. And this week we're going to start off talking about how does submission play into our freedom. And just even me saying that word causes me to cringe a little bit because of church wounds and history where you're supposed to submit to a leader or wives or submit to their husbands. And our culture kind of reacts to that a little bit. But yet you kind of have a different take on the word submission that I've loved. So why don't you tell us about that? Tell us about that.

[B]

Everything you just said, all the above is true. Unfortunately, it's a really tragically misunderstood word.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In its application. In its application. Let's start with Jesus himself. He did something for us. He modeled submission. We have to know that he modeled submission. Listen to this. With all the intention of his heart, he let God. That's what submission means. Submission just means to let. That's all the word means. So let's use Jesus as our model. He chose from his heart. Those are key words to let God love him. He chose from his heart to let God guide him and lead him into God's purpose for humanity. Now that modeling of Jesus is so critical to understanding what the word really means and the purpose of the Word because it does something. Anyone who practices submission actually is gaining freedom to minister to the heart. I want to say that again. Anyone who's practicing submission has a freedom to minister to the heart, to the

[A]

heart of another person.

[B]

To the heart of another person. So Jesus is our model. And with tears often in worship, we can appreciate this person, this humble person who chose submission. And when he chose submission, it guided him by God to the cross. And we go, whoa, wait a minute, I never thought of it that way. So that I want us to think about it. Scott, in unfortunately, those list of things you just said, the church, in our opinion, has abused the word submission when it comes to the role of women. Because the church over history has predominantly male driven and a really bad theology that somehow the men are to point down to the women and tell them, the Bible says you're supposed to submit to me, so that means you're going to submit to me. And unfortunately, women have owned that. Unfortunately. Or rebelled against it, unfortunately. But that's not what the Bible is teaching. Actually what the Bible's teaching When it says, wives, submit to your husbands, the Bible actually gives a definition of the husband they're to submit to. Isn't that interesting? Here's what the Bible says. This is the husband you're to submit to. Husbands, love your wives, huh? I think it's easy for a woman to submit to a husband who loves her, but then it says to them about the husband, husbands, not only love your wives, but I want you to sacrifice your life for her best. Imagine. I've talked to lots of women about this. Imagine a woman being married to a man who loves her and is intentionally sacrificing his life for her best. Women line up to submit to that. But when you come at submission from an authoritarian place, and from an authoritarian place, you submit to the elders. Submit to the husbands from an authoritarian place. Listen carefully. You are never touching the heart, but you are attacking the will. That's really important to hear that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because now we have a battle of wills, and I'm in charge. I'm a man. I'm ahead of the house. I'm stronger, I'm bigger, I'm smaller. I'm all these wonderful things except what God wants me to be. So I want to come back to this premise. What if I, as a man, practice submission by letting you love me, Scott. By letting others love me. We quoted so many times, Jesus said, the great evidence that we are his. We love one another. Scott, no one, no one can love you until you let them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What does that mean? That means that if I don't practice submission, I will never experience love.

[A]

Because submission is letting.

[B]

It's letting.

[A]

Letting someone love me.

[B]

Letting somebody love me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, who am I going to let love me? Well, if we backed up 10 steps, we'd say, well, I'd like to let those I trust love me. Okay, good. That's good thinking. You don't want to just let anybody. Well, who am I going to let teach me truth. You hear the word let? Who am I going to let teach me truth. Who am I going to let guide me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who. Who am I going to let stand alongside me as we move together into the purposes of God?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I want to be a person who is practicing submission in our relationship, very personally. In our relationship. You and me. This one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I want to submit to you. I want to let me to let you influence my life. Because I trust you, Scott. Yeah, see, that's a really important thing. Right. Just right there. I practice submission with you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And when I do, you say, well, Bill, you're Going to be so vulnerable to Scott. Yeah. Amen. Scott could hurt you. Yep. Probably could. In fact, he has. That's not the point. The point is that if I practice submission, I become a person who can touch with truth the hearts of others. My heart. Your heart? Yeah. Let's keep it personal.

[A]

Yeah. Keep it right here.

[B]

Let's keep it right here. So we're practicing this process together. I trust you. I let you speak into my life. I let you guide me. And reciprocating, you're letting me teach you truth. And so this is very real. Take submission. I wish we could get out of the condemnation of the word and practice its reality. Forget about how misused it's been. It's a powerful word. I personally believe it's one of the key words to the development of our character. Yeah, I really do. I believe it's one of the key words. In fact, very, very, very effective. People can get a lot done and their character can be a mess until they learn to let others speak into who they are.

[A]

I mean, I've had the example. I have had two wives.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, my first wife died of cancer. Now I'm married again. And I get to let Eileen now influence me.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And as she does, I grow.

[B]

Absolutely. And by the way, I love her influence on you. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's been good.

[B]

It's been excellent. That's why I said that I love her influence.

[A]

I mean, I had great influence from Bev, and now with Eileen, it's different. It's true what you're saying. I'm aware that I let her influence me.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I let her have input into my life.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But the fruit is, as I do, that she lets me have influence into her life.

[B]

Absolutely. Well said. The freedom gives you access to her heart.

[A]

To her heart.

[B]

Now, let's say that about 50 times. Imagine one of the reasons that Jesus wanted us to have freedom is so that we would have access to the hearts of others. And even as I say that, four or five or six key people came into my mind just now who. Who have had access to my heart. My wife Grace.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Has had access to my heart. We've told the story many times of how Grace trusted God one night and challenged me by asking me a question that changed my life. Bill, why won't you let me love you? Why won't you trust me? You see, the. See, the dynamic was there. I wasn't submitting to her, so I wasn't experiencing her love. And what was happening is I was getting deeper into my wounding because I never saw her in her submission as a solution to me and my pain. So it's a really important question. People may not think about it as much as I do, but I want to say this. Do you know that the people you trust are the people that are modeling for you submission? Do you know that the people you trust are the people that are modeling, trusting others? And so we have lots of associates in our lives and most of us don't trust anyone.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like taking it back to my business setting with the people in our company and the people I trust. They were people who let me influence them.

[B]

Well said they were.

[A]

And as I trusted them and let them influence me, the culture begins.

[B]

A good culture begins and it multiplies.

[A]

God.

[B]

See, now you just said a multiplier. You added a multiplier, by the way. A true multiplier. So this word submission is critical. We will teach every time we can that trust is the key operative word for all relationships. Submission is right next to it. You see, there is no submission in an environment that lacks trust.

[A]

Yeah. And if you're listening to us right now and you're a business leader, we've got a conference we want to tell you about. I don't want to go into all the details, but I want you to go check out livinginfluenceleadership.com. we've got a seminar that you could come and attend. It's relatively inexpensive. We're going to treat you like royalty. It's going to be awesome. It's in September, so go to livinginfluenceleadership.com to check that out. Thank you and we'd love to see you there. Let's move on from this word submission, which when we say submission, we mean to let.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And let's talk about giving permission. Permission is. It's a well used tool in your tool bag, I would say for Maya, observing you working with others. Tell me about permission.

[B]

No one, no one, including God, has access to your life without your permission. No one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now let's, let's take it more practical. Permission is my granting you access to me. Permission is my granting you access to me.

[A]

Is permission. The pronouncement that I'm going to let you.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So permission is me saying to you, bill, I want to submit to you.

[B]

Exactly. I'm going to let you.

[A]

I'm going to let you have access

[B]

to me and have access to me. Interesting, isn't it? Because you said that you hit it Right on the head. So I have this dynamic in me. Can't help it. It's true of all of us. I'm unbelievably self protective, not very good at it. Nobody is. But we assume we are. None of us were designed of God to function without others. None of us. But sin caused us in that function to really hurt each other. So we're holding on to this self protection, not even concerned in thinking about how somebody might have permission. Even those words scare people. When I share those words in a conference, I can feel people going, oh, permission. I ain't going to give anybody permission. And yet we don't understand. Permission is the freedom that others have. To me in the church in Laodicea, the church of Laodicea is a holy mess. And he tells them they are. They're blind and naked and they're in bad shape. And they're going, no, we're in great shape. We're top of the line. He's like, you missed it just a little bit. But then he does something. He seeks permission. He says, I stay at the door and knock. Hear the words, Jesus words. If anyone opens the door, I will come in and dine with him and I'll dine with you. Now watch. Watch the principle, okay? God sees me better than I do in all of my reality, as dark and distorted as it might be. And he stands, so to speak, pursuing my permission to let him answer my greatest need. What? That's amazing, Scott. That's powerful. Now you talked about me a little bit. One of the things I'm learning about this principle is I do. I get to talk to a lot of people. I have for many, many years. And in all of my conversations with people, some of them come because somebody sent them to talk to Bill. In all of those conversations, I am constantly looking for permission. Constantly. I'm asking questions, looking for permission because I know something. Until I have permission, I have no access to their person. Well, Bill, you're talking. Wait, I'm going to give somebody permission to access. What are they going to do when I give them access? What are they going to do? Let's let Jesus be our model again. Jesus is the one who just declared this church a mess. You're blind and you're naked. You're dysfunctional. And what he said to them was, I want permission not to condemn you, but to fellowship with you. Yeah, See, I, Jesus, know the condition of your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not the condition of your life that bothers me. I have an answer for that. It's the person that I want a relationship with. Now, that's a good insight biblically, because it's a good insight practically as we minister with people. So as I look for an opportunity for someone to give me permission, what I'm looking for is an opportunity to really honor their person. So I'm looking for ways now when I have permission to affirm that person so that in the affirmation of their person, they lose the fear of my condemnation of their behavior. In my seeking permission to give affirmation to their person, I'm reducing the tension they feel in the potential condemnation because of their behavior.

[A]

I'm working with a leader, and they've been wounded and they're immature and they're not aware.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they're immature from their wounding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they think they're a good leader.

[B]

I can hear where this is leading.

[A]

And so there's a place where you want to lead that person to realize.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I've been doing this on my own and I'm not pulling it off. But then they also need affirmed. I've seen people get this grace message and they just affirm the guy in his brokenness, and the brokenness never gets addressed.

[B]

Thank you. Then it's really not grace.

[A]

And it's really not grace.

[B]

Really not grace. So you've said a mouthful of 10 things, and I want to address a couple of them in that person. They need. You need to figure out a way for them to give you permission to anything. I don't care what it is. Take them fishing, get permission to buy. Just find a way for them to give you permission to something. And once you have that permission, in that moment of permission, that's a key teaching point now, same thing is true with any issue of the heart. Charlie, how you feeling? Well, I'm pretty sad. Why? Because. Charlie, could I. Here's the key. Could I talk to you about that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, Charlie, I'll tell you what. You better stop doing. No, no. Could I talk to you about that? But never ask somebody. Could I speak to you about that? If you're not willing to receive a no, never ask it. Because if you receive a no, you are obligated to stop the conversation about that. You don't manipulate them into a yes because they'll never trust you again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So back to your example. Okay. This man needs attention. I would pursue areas that are on the fringe of what you see to start testing whether he'll give you permission to these areas and then deepen into. Because the thing you don't want to do is you don't want to misuse grace. You don't want to say, hey, God loves you, I love you, everything's okay. It's not okay. Grace does not wink at sin, ever. It cost Jesus Calvary, so it never winks at sin. What grace does is grace provides the answer to sin, but addresses first the person. That's the key. If I'm going to affirm you, it's not in order to get something from you. I'm going to affirm you because I've got something to give to you. And if you'd let me. This is what we're talking about. We're talking about submission and permission. And so your example is excellent. Now, who. Who do I know? Who do you know this man? How do you address him? You have conversations looking for anything that'll give you permission, and that permission gives you opportunity to speak only. Only to the point that you have permission to. And once he sees that you're honoring that, he'll give you this much more.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Scott, I've sat across the table for some very well known, powerful leaders. This is what I do every time. I've had some of them say, thanks, Bill, that's it. I've had people walk away. It's okay. In fact, I had a powerful leader just address this question that we're talking about very quickly. We sat at night just like this. We were sitting at a table at his home, and this is how he started the conversation. Bill, I appreciate you coming. I just want you to know I've never submitted to anyone in my life and I don't intend to submit to you. That's how he started the conversation. And I don't know what 10 other people would have done, but I know what I did.

[A]

He said, I believe you.

[B]

I believe you.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I said, I believe you. And I got up and I shook his hand and I said, thanks. Let me know when you'd like to talk. And I left because I believed him. It's important that we believe people. We don't manipulate them into a yes. We let them dwell in the reality of their own answer.

[A]

I imagine your head might be spinning like mine is, like, how in the world do I do these conversations and just go to the edge and get permission right there? And it's worth thinking about and trying to understand better. But I don't think it's going to happen today. So we want to thank you for listening to our podcast today talking about submission and permission. We're going to continue to talk about freedom and we hope to see you next week. Thanks again for listening to Living Influence. We appreciate you. We'd love it if you'd go to livinginfluence.com, contact us and send us an email. We'd love to know what you're thinking. See you next week.