← Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
E109 - Greg Cagle - How to grow a culture that embraces our unique weirdness
00:53:07
Loading summary
Transcript49 lines
- [00:01]
A
Hey, welcome to Living the Next Chapter. I have another amazing guest. I am so happy with these authors that come on and share their story. Greg Cagle is with me today on the podcast. Greg and I had a outstanding pre interview yesterday and now today we recorded together. You'll hear us mention it many times during the recording. The reason why we do pre interviews is we want to come to the podcast recording with a bridge, connection and knowledge for you, for your sake as a listener. Just so you understand, there's a lot of time and investment from our guests into the episodes. It's not just a meet and greet and hit record. There's a lot of time and thought that goes into each episode. And I hope that you appreciate Greg's time today. Greg is an author. He's got a couple books out. He's got one just about being weird and how unique we are in the world. And then another one we just written about culture and your business. And we get into some amazing, amazing discussion and even flips it around on me during the, during our discussion and throws the, he grabs the mic and takes over and he. It's his podcast at one point and I, I just, I really appreciate Greg. I appreciate his, his knowledge, his wisdom and I really excited to share this with you, Greg Cagle here on Living the Next Chapter. Please grab a piece of paper and a pen if you can, or check out the show notes, whatever it takes. But here's some knowledge for you on culture and your inner awareness on Living the Next Chapter.
- [01:57]
B
One of the first things that I discovered in my work with leaders literally all over the world at this point is they all understand that culture is important. And they can recognize if culture is healthy. They can feel it, right? Or they can recognize when culture is unhealthy. They can feel that as well. What is very interesting though, in my work, as I began to talk culture with leaders and began to talk to them about the leader culture connection, here's what I found. They couldn't define it. The interesting thing is we've got to understand what culture is. And then once you do that, then you can be intentional about defining it within your own organization. And I simply define it this way, Dave, in the book, I say culture is simply this. It's the way we think, it's the way we act, and it's the way we interact. And it's the leaders that set the tone for that. How the leaders think, the way the leaders behave and the way the leaders interact with, with, with their teams determines the culture. And then once we understand that. Then we can come to an agreement on, hey, Dave, if you and I are going to be successful together, how do we need to think? What are the thoughts that we need to have? We don't have to think exactly the same, but are we thinking in the right direction? Are we thinking towards a common place that we're trying to go? And then how do we want to behave in that? And then how do we want to interact?
- [03:40]
A
Welcome to the podcast. I have a wonderful guest with me today. We've already had a great conversation, and we're going to continue it today. Greg is here with me today, and Greg is going to be talking about his book. We're going to get a little weird today, and I hope that's okay with everybody, but we're going to enjoy this great conversation with Greg. Greg, welcome to the podcast. So happy and blessed to have you here with us today. Thank you for making time. Welcome to Living the Next Chapter.
- [04:08]
B
Oh, thanks very much. I've been looking forward to this since our conversation yesterday, so thanks for having me. Dude. Dave.
- [04:16]
A
Amazing. And can. Okay. I always love asking, can you let people know where you are in the world? That's always a great way to start.
- [04:23]
B
Yeah, I. I am actually in the foothills of the mountains of Tennessee, so I live in Knoxville, Tennessee, which is right there. We. We call this the. The Land of the Lakes. There's tons of lakes and in the valley. And then I live right at the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.
- [04:42]
A
Sounds gorgeous. Sounds gorgeous. Wow. Yeah, I would love to. I love to see that someday. That would be amazing. And so. So, Greg, there's a. A great conversation we had yesterday, kind of chatting together. I love talking to my guests in advance of recording because it's a great way to build a bridge together and. And kind of get to know each other a little bit more. You have an impressive background, some pretty amazing stories of where you've been in life. Can you tell us a little bit about your author journey and kind of how this started for you, that one day you woke up and said, you know what? I'm gonna. I'm gonna write a book. How did that kind of come to be for you?
- [05:27]
B
Yeah, so, yeah, my. My background, Dave, is one of kind of living out really on. On the edges. I learned pretty early on I was a little bit rebellious, and I took my career into the entrepreneurial space at a pretty early age. So at 28, I kind of started my own company, and I was too dumb to realize I shouldn't and built a pretty decent business over the course of that time and got bored and sold it and moved on. Long story, long story short, I did that five different times. Start a new business and build it and then move on. And the, the interesting thing is I don't, I don't guess, I don't guess I ever woke up and said, gee, you know, I'd like to be an author, or gee, I'd like to write a book. But I went through a tremendous amount of adversity in my life back when the financial collapse of 2007, 2008 occurred. And I wound up kind of reinventing myself and all I'd ever known was business. And so I took that and, and said, you know, I'm going to have to do something different. And so maybe I can just kind of help other people with their business. And I began to do work with other companies and other leaders. And the way I actually decided to write my first book is I realized so many people and this is, I think this is true of life, but certainly I saw it in business. So many business leaders were living out their career as leaders, trying to live up to the expectations they thought they were supposed to. There was, you know, this defined box that you needed to be in if you were going to be successful in a business or a career. And so they began to do that and slowly but surely it just kind of eroded who they were. And you know, I began, I found myself coaching a lot of leaders because I do a lot of executive coaching on getting back to what makes them great, their authenticity. And so I wrote that first book, Be Weird about that. You know, you and I touched on it yesterday. You know, there's basically 7.6 billion people on the planet. There's only one you. That's pretty weird. And so we started encouraging leaders to not only, you know, be who they are, but understand that there's a lot of power in it for them and that the value that they're going to add, the ripple effect they're going to have to others, lies within that authenticity. And there's a, an expedited trust that happens when you're authentic. And so that was be weird. And that was so much fun and it got a lot of traction and I found myself out there speaking on it. And then this latest book, Culture about Culture, that one was just a two year project of what I've learned in life about successful companies versus not so successful companies and that authenticity, it turns out that I always encourage leaders to do and is true of culture as well. And building an Authentic culture that people want to be part of, that they feel a tribal belonging. And as a result, they have an emotional connection. And that emotional connection is what drives sustainable effort and performance. The organizations that understand culture lead culture well and define it intentionally. You're gonna, you know, every organization has a culture, whether it's defined or by default. So I encourage leaders, hey, let's define the culture we want that allows all the people within our organization to come together and contribute in their own unique way and their own weirdness and do something great. And so the idea of becoming an author was more just about expressing things that you learn over life. And you just say, gosh, I just got to get this off my chest. I just need to say this. I don't know if anyone's going to buy a book or not, but I just need to say it. So that's kind of a long, long winded answer to a simple question.
- [09:44]
A
I love it. Okay, so from my, all my background and working in corporate and doing all that stuff in my life, the whole topic of culture, I've seen really good examples of a really healthy culture. I've seen examples of a very poor culture within a business setting. And I think the one thing that doesn't really seem to get addressed quite often is the deep roots, the unseen side of an organization and how firmly planted some companies and businesses are and leaders are, and maybe some of the poor habits or personality things that people bring to business that have an impact on the culture in general. Any thoughts around how to build a healthy culture from like, the deep roots below the surface so that you can have a healthier culture in your business?
- [10:42]
B
Oh, Dave, come on. This is so good that you brought this up. I mean, very insightful. So one of the first things that I discovered in my work with leaders literally all over the world at this point is they all understand that culture is important and they can recognize if culture is healthy. They can feel it. Right. Or they can recognize when culture is unhealthy. They can feel that as well. What is very interesting, though, in my work, as I began to talk culture with leaders and began to talk to them about the leader culture connection, here's what I found. They couldn't define it. I'll tell you, tell you a quick story. You'll get a kick out of this. So I, I, I was working with a leader. I was, I was coaching him, and he, he's a, a top leader in a Fortune 100 company. And I was already into writing this book, and I thought, wow, it'd be a great opportunity to have a conversation with this guy and, and kind of get his take on culture at the level that he is within that large organization. So I asked him a quick question. I said, hey, do you believe culture is important? And he didn't hesitate. He said, culture's probably the single most important thing in business. I said, well, we agree on that. In fact, I think culture is an organization's competitive edge. And so now he has my interest because we kind of already agree on that. I said, well, how's the culture there? Because culture here is fantastic. I said, is it? Now I'm really excited because I'm thinking, well, I'm going to pick his brain a little bit. I'm going to take some notes here. So I said, well, tell me something. How do you define culture there? How do you define it? And he said, well, Greg, you have to understand culture is. And then there was this long pause and he stammers a little bit. He goes, well, you got to understand about culture and culture. And then finally he gets frustrated with himself and he says, oh, hell, culture is culture. And that was his definition. And so to your point, the interesting thing is we've got to understand what culture is. And then once you do that, then you can be intentional about the definite defining it within your own organization. And I simply define it this way, Dave, in the book, I say culture is simply this. It's the way we think, it's the way we act, it's the way, and it's the way we interact. And if my thought is that my fellow employee Dave is different than I am, and in that difference he adds value and perspective that I couldn't have by myself, then my actions and interactions with Dave are going to be positive. They're going to be genuinely curious to understand where he's coming from and what his opinions are. And then collectively we go on together and do great things. If my thinking is Dave is out there in left field and his thinking is opposite of mine and he just doesn't understand. He just doesn't get it, then my actions and interactions are going to create a negative environment. And it's the leaders that set the tone for that. How the leaders think, the way the leaders behave and the way the leaders interact with, with, with their teams determines the culture. And then once we understand that, then we can come to an agreement on, hey, Dave, if you and I are going to be successful together, how do we need to think? What are the thoughts that we need to have? We don't have to Think exactly the same, but are we thinking in the right direction? Are we thinking towards a common place that we're trying to go? And then how do we want to behave in that? And then how do we want to interact? And so that's kind of the beginning of how you get to your point, get down into the roots, because that is the roots right there.
- [14:40]
A
Yeah. And that's the health of the business, the organization, the culture starts below the surface. It's not all the fancy things you see above the surface. Is that so, Greg, can we. Can we build a bridge, then, between book number one and book number two? How is our weirdness impacting our culture? What's that bridge between the two?
- [15:04]
B
Well, there's a. There's a good question, and I. A simple answer would simply say this in the book I wrote, Be Weird. One of the most. One of the statements I'm most proud of is I said that authenticity is a trust accelerant. And I think that resonated with a lot of readers, because if you think about it, the people you trust the most and the people you trust the quickest tend to be people that just understand who they are and they are who they are. And they're very comfortable in their own skin, and they're very authentic in their approach to every interaction that they have. They understand, you know, where they're good and they. And they're proud of that. And they also understand where they're at a disadvantage and where maybe they struggle, and they're also okay with that. In fact, many of them kind of laugh at themselves. Well, if you understand that, then think about this. What is the. Probably the biggest, most important foundational element to a healthy culture? It's trust. So the connection there is if we can get leaders to be authentic leaders. You know, leadership is. I. I've said this before and kind of usually get people. They'll raise a little bit of an eyebrow. See, leadership is an individual sport. You have to lead in a way that's individual to you and that fits for you. And then you also have to lead others in the way that's individual to them and the way they need to be led. And so that. That whole be weird, authenticity element transfers very nicely into a authentic culture. I have clients that I have been working with now for a few years, and we've actually started to deploy the four dimensions of culture into their environment. And they're already starting to refer to it as building a weird culture.
- [16:59]
A
That's. That I like that. That's unique. Okay. So as A leader. How did we then cultivate? We talk about what happens below the surface. How do we then bring all of that stability into our organization and develop a culture that attracts and brings people into our. Into our world, into our business, whatever we're doing, and surrounds us with the people that bring their weirdness, I guess you could say right, to our organization. Because what I'm looking for as a leader, I'm not looking for a hundred Daves. I would go nuts If I had 100 of me. I'm looking for people to come with different perspectives and different gifts and talents and abilities and working towards one goal. But how do I. How do I attract people and build a culture now that I've got my roots settled and I know where I'm going now? How do I get the right people?
- [17:59]
B
Yeah, so that's a very interesting question as well, Dave, because I encourage people, encourage organizations all the time in their hiring process to hire for culture fit, not necessarily the strongest resume. And what I say to them is, every time you bring someone in from the outside, you put your culture at risk. You think about it, and to your point, you want to attract the right kind of employees that you feel like are going to be a culture fit. And once again, it goes back to a couple of things. First of all, you have to understand that there are four distinct dimensions to culture. Each one of those has its own way and its own personality and how it serves the organization. And so the first thing is you have to understand that the other thing is, and you hear this all the time, and a lot of people talk about it, but very few leaders actually sit down and are intentional about it. And that is, what is the value system that we want to have in this organization or this team? You know, this culture thing, you can actually have a culture within a culture. In fact, in many organizations that I go in, you know, the HR department will have a certain culture because of, by the very nature of how it serves the organization. So some of the values associated with being in the HR department might be things like confidentiality, you know, value value, open debate and open conversation. So understanding, you know, this value system. And then it's real simple. If I'm interviewing you and I say, hey, Dave, we're really considering having you come on board. We really want to make sure this is a great fit. So it probably should tell you a few things about us. And then I would express to you, hey, here the. Here are top four or five values in this organization. And then I go right back to the think act and interact. And it might sound like this. I might say, Dave, if you come on board here and you really want to be successful and you want to contribute and you want to feel, you know, tribal belonging, here's. Here's how. Here's how we think around here. And, you know, if we're a. Maybe a technology company, we might. I might say we. The way we think around here is we challenge the status quo and everything. So if you're not thinking about debate or thinking about changing something, you might not be a good fit here. How do we behave? Hey, we. We believe in spirited debate around here. So when you interact with your people, you need to be willing to. To challenge and be willing to be challenged as part of who we are. It's part of what we do. Now at that point in time, you're already sitting there thinking, wow, this is exciting, and I'd like to be a part of this, or, oh, I don't know about that. That doesn't feel right to me. Either way, it gives you, you know, more of a compass to make a decision about who we are and whether or not you're a good fit. And then based on your responses, I can determine whether or not I think you're a good fit. That help that.
- [21:09]
A
I think if. If any hiring manager, employer could have that kind of conversation at the beginning, could. Could alleviate a lot of the mistakes in the interview hiring process really would really smooth that out and. And find that fit, because again, it's. It's not just about the employer or the business trying to find the right person. The person's trying to find the right business as well. So we're interviewing each other in that. In that setting. So that's. I love. I love that approach. That's really. That's very smart.
- [21:41]
B
Yeah. Good. Yeah.
- [21:44]
A
So how is this book going to impact the reader? Who did you have in mind as you were writing this and as you're crafting this about culture? Did you have somebody in mind?
- [21:59]
B
Yeah, I. You know, I don't know in the beginning that I did. I think in the beginning, I just realized there was this framework that every culture has and that most. Most people didn't understand that it existed. So these four dimensions, as I call them. But as I got into the book and I began to write it, I think my heart started. Started wanting to impact the leaders of the organization. And I'm not just talking about, you know, the top leaders. I'm talking about, you know, the leaders that are deeper into the organization, the team leaders, the Department heads, and maybe even, you know, below that for the benefit of the employee. Give you an example. I challenge this idea of empowerment. Dave, you've been around the block, and this word empowerment is a big buzzword in business now. And leaders will talk about, I want to empower my people. I want an organization that empowers their people. We took a different approach, and what we said was, if you have the right culture in an organization, it doesn't empower anyone. Because empowering suggests that I have to give you power. I empower you. No, what I want is I want a culture where you walk in the door of an organization knowing that we already recognize you have power. You had power when you walked in the door. You're a powerful human being. Our culture is here to extract the brilliance that is you. And so I began to write it for leaders to say, listen, leaders, you can't be everywhere all the time. What leads in your absence? Culture. And one thing you need to understand is it's not about you leading people per se. It's about you extracting the brilliance of the collective. And if I look, if I'm you, you mentioned, you know, your wife is in the business world and sounds like she's a big deal. She's pretty.
- [24:08]
A
Yes.
- [24:09]
B
Pretty big title here. You know, when she walks in the door every day, if her. If the people that she works closest with feel like she has an attitude that they're powerful and she's constantly trying to extract the brilliance that is them, they're going to react and work in a totally different way than if they're constantly looking to her to find out, hey, do I have the power? Are you giving me the authority? Are you giving me what I need to work? It's a huge difference in mindset if you think about it.
- [24:40]
A
Yeah.
- [24:41]
B
And so as. As I began to write it, it probably just went from, hey, I had something to say about culture, to I really want leaders to understand it. Do I really want employees to feel really good? And I think by the end of the book, Dave, it was. I probably wrote it for the employees because they deserve nice, a great place to work. They deserve an environment that helps them live up to the potential and have the ripple effect that we're meant to have.
- [25:10]
A
I love how you keep coming back to the ripple effect, and I love your statement, you know, what leads in your absence is culture. I wrote it down. I'm like, that's. That's amazing. I'm gonna, like, that needs to be on a shirt or something. I have no Idea, but that I love that. Can we, can we kind of go back to the four dimensions that you mentioned several times and can we kind of just touch on those again and, and just kind of bring those to light? I think that would be something that would really be valuable.
- [25:39]
B
Yeah, I'll touch on very briefly. But before I, before I kind of unpack the four dimensions, it's important for people to understand how we arrived at this. And what I realized, Dave, is in all my work over the years with businesses, both the ones that I built and, and ran and the ones that I work with other leaders, I learned that there's three key things that every business has to be prepared to deliver on. There's three business functions that will determine the sustainability of any organization. And so real quickly, if you don't mind, I'd like to just throw those out there and then talk about the four dimensions and how they serve. So this is the first, the first business function, and most, most people understand this and get this because there's so much talk about it, is the execution of strategy. Organization has to have a roadmap that is their strategic plan, and then they have to be able to execute on that. And what I always say is that requires accuracy in your culture. So keep that word in mind. Accuracy, right? So you've got to execute on culture with laser focus, efficient and effective as possible to win the game, right? That is your, that is your, your game plan. So that requires accuracy. The other two, interestingly enough, are something that you can't plan for, but you can be prepared for. And if you're not prepared for it, you could be a business fatality. And so the first one is navigating adversity or crisis. Every organization, if they're around long enough, has to navigate some level of crisis or adversity in the marketplace, whatever it is. Now you say, well, well, why can't you plan for that? Well, because most of the crisis or adversity that will derail the organization is something you can't see coming. I mean, if, if anyone stands up and tells me they predicted Covid and knew exactly the impact it was going to have on business, I'm going to have to tell them they're lying. You couldn't plan for that. But if your culture is, is right and it's where it needs to be, you are prepared for it and you're able to navigate it, right? That requires adaptability. So you've got to have adaptability built into your culture. And then the last one is capturing opportunity. Every organization that's ever gone anywhere of any level there, you can always backtrack. And there was some one or two opportunities unforeseen that they didn't plan for, that presented themselves and they needed to be able to take advantage of that. That requires agility in your organization. And so if a culture has, if it's built correctly, it has, it has all the elements necessary to deliver on those three functions. Right. It has accuracy, it has adaptability and it has agility. Now what is it, what's required for that is. And that's where the four dimensions come in. And I'll, I'll, I'll quickly. Well, you know what, let me do this, Let me stop right there before I dive into the four dimensions. And that might have spurred a thought or question that maybe needs to be cleared up. Dave?
- [29:06]
A
Yeah, I just, again, yeah. I love the fact that you're talking about how we just can't predict everything in business. We can't see around corners all the time. Right. And I just see, I, I find that the bigger the, the bigger the organization, the less nimble and agile they seem to be. It's, you know, like, I think of like a little water ski, jet boat thing going around. They can maneuver really well and a big Titanic that takes a lot of time to turn it right. And I just, I have a heart, I see a lot of business having a hard time being agile. So this seems like something that can really help, no matter what size we're talking about, of an organization to be as agile as possible and kind of respond when these things happen.
- [30:00]
B
Yeah, and I think that's, you really touched on something important there because I think that's why we saw a lot of the business fatalities that came out of COVID And it was sad, but most of them were small to mid sized businesses because, you know, they certainly weren't insulated from the impact of the economic impact of COVID And so therefore, if they didn't have that adaptability or that agility, they just couldn't move quick enough. Some of the bigger companies survived mainly just because they're so big and they're so insulated. But that so, so if you think about that, there's, there's four dimensions in every culture. And, and what I tell leaders in department heads or team leaders, it's all the same. You have four distinct dimensions. Three of those are really positive and important. One of those is, is negative. It's a negative drag and you have to watch out for it. So here are the, here are the Four, real quick, complacent is a dimension. Every organization has some level of, of complacency in its culture. I'd love to be able to say that I've run across a business that was able to eradicate it, but they haven't. So it's important to understand that it's there. You need to be able to recognize it, keep it to a minimum, and always, you know, trying to eradicate it as much as possible. And complacency, a lot of people think is a bunch of lazy people sitting around doing nothing. The truth of the matter is it's not complacency in an organization. Think about this, Dave, and see if you agree with it. Complacency in organization only occurs or most of the time occurs. I should say never say only or, or, but most of the time it occurs after we've been successful. And here's something else that's interesting. The higher level of success you achieve, the more at risk you are for complacency. And, you know, in the book, I talk about different examples of that. And one of the, one of the things that one of the companies that probably most of your listeners will recognize was Blockbuster Video. They, they built an inner home entertainment empire. And, and, and so they, they were successful. And like a lot of companies, what they did was they doubled down on everything it took to be successful, and they begin to commit to the status quo. And that is complacency. Complacency isn't doing nothing. Complacency is doing something but committed to the wrong thing. And, and so they were, they, they committed themselves to the status quo. And here's the, here's the reason this is so dangerous is because once you reach that success level and you commit to doing the thing that got you there, it actually works for a while and sometimes for a long while. But eventually, as you know, markets change, competitors react. And in this case, there was a company called Netflix that came up and, and took their market share. And, and I unpacked that in the book. And there's actually two, two situations where Blockbuster had an opportunity to put Netflix out of business and blew it because they were complacent. They're thinking, so there's complacency. And then I'll just touch on the other three real quick. I won't go into it real deep, but. So the other three are the compliant dimension. This is where our processes, procedures and rules live. And compliance provides the order and structure for organizations to be efficient and to eradicate mistakes of the past. And duplicate or replicate efficient operations. As we know, though, too much compliance can push an organization into complacency. And I talk about that. But, but it is a, it is, it is needed. Order and structure is needed to scale a business. The, the third dimension is committed. We call it the committed dimension because this is where we are committed to the hill we're going to climb, whatever it is that we want to achieve. This is where all of our goals live. This is where all our performance metrics live. And that's in the committed dimension. And then the last dimension is what I call the courageous dimension. This is where innovation and creativity and change lives in your organization. And if it's not healthy, then at some point you're going to become irrelevant or you're going to become behind the curve of your industry because you're not innovating and you're not looking at creative ways to do things. So those, if all, all three of those compliant, committed and courageous are healthy and they're balanced, they're understood and led. Well, the result of that is extraordinary.
- [34:53]
A
I am taking notes as we talk here. I'm filling up my page. I gotta go get some more paper. It's. This is Greg. You're just unpacking so many things for me and for the listeners that are partaking with us today. Can you, can you share a little bit, Greg, about you? You talk about the people you work with, the people that come along side of you, and you're helping them. Who, who do you typically work with? And can you kind of give us a little insight into, you know, when they come to you, what are they looking for from you and kind of how do you guide them?
- [35:34]
B
I, so this is a, this is a hard question for me, Dave, because I have my, my personality is one that has a hard time saying no to a challenge. So I tend to say yes to a lot of things that I probably shouldn't just because of my own bandwidth. But so usually organizations will come to me. Either they heard, heard a keynote speech that I delivered at, you know, an industry event or something like that, and they're interested in what I do and they'll come to me. But the, the companies that I work with is, I, usually, my favorite is privately held organizations because I love working with entrepreneurs, because I'm, I wasn't, I'm a serial entrepreneur myself, and so I love working with entrepreneurs. And so I would say the bulk, bulk of companies that I work with are organizations that are literally anywhere from maybe 10 million a year in revenue up to, you know, 100, 125 million a year in revenue, privately held. And what they want is they want to understand how to scale their business and how to scale their business and maintain the identity and the culture that they've built that got them there. They feel like maybe they're losing, they're losing. You know, as an entrepreneur, you can, you can only touch things for so long and then the organization gets to the point where you, you literally can't touch the things that you used to touch. You can't be available to the things you used to be available to. So they're looking for this framework that says, help me scale my business and, and keep a healthy culture in the meantime. And so that, that now I actually, it's interesting because I actually have worked with a couple of very large publicly held companies. I work with a company right now, probably one of my favorite, and I actually tell part of their story in the book. It's a publicly held steel company in the steel business and I've been working with them now for about four years. And, and this, in fact, just, just was there not too long ago, a couple weeks ago, talking at a, a leadership summit they had on culture. So that's what they're looking for. Hey, can you help us be intentional, build out this framework and give us, give us, you know, some, some ways to embed this deeper into the organs. Because the goal is to have frontline obsession, right? If, if, if your frontline employees are obsessed with the purpose that your organization serves and they feel tribal belonging and they understand how we think, act and interact around here, they're going to be the best, they're going to be the best brand warriors that you could hope for. So the deeper you can push this out into the organization, all the way to the front line, the better. And that's what they're looking for. And so that's what we work on. And it's a journey. I mean, it's not just one meeting, you know, one get together and done. It's a journey.
- [38:40]
A
Was there any part of writing this new book on culture that you struggled with, that you're like. I'm really, I really don't know if I have this all figured out, but it's part of my journey in writing this book. And was there any wrestling with, with the topic of culture that you're just like, you're kind of learning as you're writing this as well.
- [39:05]
B
You, you have been, you've gotten into my head somehow because. Okay, so here's the first thing, I'll tell you what did I struggle with most. I struggled with finishing it. And I, you know, I mentioned to you there was a time I went into the, to the manuscript to make, to make some changes again. And, and I was locked out. I couldn't get into the document. And, and so it turns out the folks that were at doing the editing, they said, we're done, we locked you out, you can't. So I guess by the very nature of saying, you know, I just kept wanting to, oh, there's one more thing. Oh, wait, the book has to have this. And so, you know, it's interesting. I, I, probably where I struggled the most was maybe not the things that I was sure of. I felt pretty, pretty good about that. But I, I kept thinking, oh, but there's one more thing. There's, there's one other thing the reader really needs to hear. And so that's where I struggled, was just saying, okay, finish the book. Give, you know, get, get, get it out there. Which, which I thought was kind of funny that here I am on a podcast called Living the Next Chapter. Because in my mind the book, the book has been out, the book has been out about a month. I still feel like maybe I've got one more chapter.
- [40:31]
A
Right. Yeah, I love how you brought that all together. Thank you. Yeah, that's exactly, that's exactly why we built the podcast was, you know, I'm a musician and I approach music that way where I write it, but I still want to tweak it and I want to play it differently and re record it and ah, you know, I just don't ever feels completely done. I just still want to get in there and tinker a little bit. And as authors I just see a bridge there as well where I've spoken to many authors and they feel the same way. They're just like, I still feel like even though it's done, I still feel like I have something more to say. And I love the fact that we get to talk about it like this.
- [41:13]
B
Dave. In fact, let's talk about that. Do you mind? I'm going to, I'm going to hijack your podcast because I want your list, I want your listeners to see something about you. They probably have already seen this as they've listened to you, but in case they haven't, I want them to see something that I saw when you and I had a chance to get together yesterday. You are, you are so genuine. It's absolutely amazing. I. Within three minutes, if it took that long. I think you had knocked down any wall that was. That was up in me, and I was totally ready to just talk about anything and everything. You're so genuine. But here's what I love about you also, is you have a passion, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a passion for people and for adding value to people any way that the opportunity presents itself. And you and I were talking about this yesterday, and we said, you know, you're a musician, you like to do music. I am a speaker and an author. I like to communicate through my books. But we. We kind of hit on something, and I'd like for you to speak to this. The. The things that we have in common are we're actually. I'm writing a book or you're writing music. And the ultimate goal is to resonate with someone, to speak to someone's passion, hit a emotional chord within their soul and move them. And I even shared with you when I. I'm going to sit down and do some writing, and I blocked off three or four or five hours or maybe right before I walk on stage to deliver a keynote. What do I do to get in the right frame of mind? I listen to music. It moves me. And there. There are songs that touch and resonate with me. By the way, I listen to that song Unwritten that you talked about yesterday, Natasha, and there's some words in there absolutely blew me away. But here's what. Here's what do you. Do you feel that same passion in. In your. In your music where you just every once in a while you'll write something and you. And you know that, you know that. You know that that's going to touch someone. Someone out there needs to hear that.
- [43:35]
A
And you just know, yeah, there's a great example of this. So the word resonate, okay, Musically, if I take two acoustic guitars, put them across the room from each other, and I pick up one and I hit the A string, guess what happens to the other guitar across the room? Guess what string starts to move the A string for the guitar across the room? For me, yeah.
- [44:08]
B
Is that true?
- [44:10]
A
No other string. Just the same string. And that's that resonance that resonates, right? And that's that word, right? So that's how music, even between instruments is impacted, which is crazy. That one note can resonate with another instrument across the room and make that note sing as well. And that's what, for me, music is. Is resonating something. You feel deeply and sharing that with an audience. So that when a song comes on and you can go back to that moment, whether that's a moment of pain or joy. That song was there, and you can go back through immediately that theater of the mind and experiences. It brings back smells and taste. You can see grandma in the kitchen cooking, because that song was on the radio in the background. It just brings you there.
- [45:08]
B
Right?
- [45:09]
A
And that's the power of music. And what I love, talking to authors is the power of word and how you can take a thought and bring people along on a journey and share a message that helps people see things differently than maybe they have never saw before or learn something new or take a. Take a abstract thought and make it practical. That makes me excited because now I'm learning and growing, and I just feel so full on the inside when I get to speak to amazing authors and to kind of just listen and learn and take out a scrap piece of paper and write notes and go, I can. I can use this today. So that. That fills me up. And I just. I just. I love that kind of bridge in that creative sense.
- [46:03]
B
Yeah, yeah. And. And that's what, you know, that's what you and I kind of stumbled on yesterday in our conversation was the commonality there. I think both were a creative process. What's interesting is, but you always envy the things you don't. You can't do, right? So if someone said to me, hey, would you like to be an. An author or a musician? I would say, you know, I want to be a musician. I. To me, that is the most amazing. What you guys do is amazing to me. To take words and put them, you know, to. To. To attune that literally singes itself to its soul. I mean, you know, I. I'm 63 years old. I grew up with music in the 70s. Now I've had a lot of life happen to me between, you know, then and now, but yet when. When my. When songs from the 70s come on, I still know every single word. I can still sing every single word. Why? Because it sings itself to who I am. And you're right, there's memories attached to that music. That's really cool, man.
- [47:04]
A
I love that. So great. Like, you have been so gracious with your time, and I know you have a full calendar. How do we end this, Greg? How do we share and encourage the next generation of leaders to build strong roots in their culture? How do we show up as leaders, and how do we build that community so that we have a healthy organization so we can move forward and be and withstand the things that come our way? Like a Pandemic and all these things we can't see around the corner. What is our superpower in our culture? Yeah.
- [47:46]
B
So I think the superpower is leaders, again, everything. John Maxwell, who is someone that I've learned from over the years, he's an author on leadership. He's been around for many, many years. I think last I checked, he'd written about 72 or three books on the subject of leadership or teamwork or something around that. And, you know, he. He says, you know, leadership. Everything rises and falls on leadership. And it really does. And I. I think if. If anyone's going to take anything away from this, what I want to encourage leaders to understand is how they approach, how they're going to work with people, extract the brilliance that is their people. They're going to have to come with two, two primary things. Humility and genuine curiosity. If I could wish anything for any culture, it would be one of humility and. And one of genuine. And. And just to define humility a little bit, C.S. lewis wrote this, and I think it's the best definition of humility there ever was. CS Lewis says humility is not thinking less of yourself. In other words, you should think highly of yourself. You're powerful, you're gifted, you're unique, you're weird. And you should go forward in boldness and courage in that. But then he goes on to say, it's just thinking of yourself less. And so what we need is bold, confident leaders who know who they are, but they're not thinking of themselves. There's everything they think about is how does this serve the people that are taking this company to greatness, and how is this going to motivate them? How is this going to inspire them? And more importantly, how does this extract the best that there is of them? And if we could create a culture like that, I think we take over the world. And that's kind of my message out there to folks that are trying to scale their companies, grow their companies, outperform the competitors. You know, culture is the one thing that your competitors can't replicate. That's the one thing. They have the same access to the resources and people and everything else that you have, but they don't have your culture. Your culture is the single biggest predictor of your longevity.
- [50:21]
A
Well, that was. I was really. I was. A nice little bow you put on that.
- [50:25]
B
I love that.
- [50:27]
A
That is exactly what I wanted to hear today. That's perfect. Greg. Greg, how do people connect with you? What do we do? How do we find you? All that stuff.
- [50:39]
B
Yeah. Probably, you know, they can go to my website. I love to encourage people. If you're on LinkedIn, find me on LinkedIn and connect. I love connecting with people. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Or you can go to my website and there's all kinds of information there about what we do and what, how, how we might be able to team up with your, you or your organization. So those probably the two of the best, best ways.
- [51:09]
A
We'll put all that in the show notes so people can click on that and go straight there. Craig, you are a gentleman for making time today. I really appreciate having you here. You've encouraged me so much in the last two conversations yesterday and today. And I'm glad that people got a chance to sit in on our conversation today and hear the great wisdom that you have. And I'm just encouraging everyone to be as weird as possible and to go grab your books as well and.
- [51:38]
B
Yeah.
- [51:39]
A
And learn because you have a gift. And thank you for sharing your gift with us.
- [51:45]
B
Well, thanks for allowing me the time, brother. Appreciate it very much. Foreign.
- [51:56]
A
Thank you for being a part of this episode. If this is your very first episode, welcome to Living the Next Chapter. You can go back in our catalog. You can see some of the past episodes. But if you want to get a sneak peek of what's coming, you want to jump the line. Ah, yeah, I got a, I got, I got something for you. Go to our YouTube channel again. Links are in the show notes and on our website, living the next chapter dot com. And you can go to our YouTube channel and get the most recent episode way before everybody else. So we're putting this at the end of the podcast because we don't want to tell everyone. We don't want to like have a stampede, you know, but we're having some great conversations over on our YouTube channel. You're invited. You've been this, you're this far. You're the one listening. You are invited to our YouTube channel. Yeah. Go over there and you can see the most up to date episodes in real time. Meet you over there. Thanks for listening. Cheers.